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The Try Tank Podcast is about innovation and the church
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And Callie, welcome to the Tri Tank
podcast.
>> Callie: Yay. Thank you so much for having
me on.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Well, the moment that I saw the title of your book,
I knew that we had to have you on for a couple of reasons.
One is, well, I know you're a good person and a good
priest, so it was going to be a good book nonetheless. It was going to be centered
on God and Jesus, and that was a good thing, and more people need to
know about that. But second, sort of a bit
self serving, is the podcasts that have
received the most listens are the
podcasts where we have talked about clergy
well being and the fact that
we're not talking enough about
what's going on in our church right now and, uh, with
regards to our clergy. So, as we begin this, tell me,
how did you decide that this was a book you wanted to write? Before
we go into the book itself, how did you. What were you seeing in the church,
or how did it come about?
>> Callie: Yes. So, um, it was
part practical and part Holy Spirit, as most
ministry is, right? Indeed.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah.
>> Callie: I sat out at the beginning of
2023 knowing that it was
time to finally write a
book and received, uh,
several clear signs that
were equivalent to God bonking
me on the head with a frying pan and saying, okay, listen
up. And so, um, I
was in the middle of writing
a, ah, proposal and sample chapters,
uh, for a completely different project, completely different
publisher, uh, when
church publishing reached out to me and said,
would you be interested in writing a book
on a resource for weary
clergy? And, uh, I said,
wow. Yes, it's on my list here
of things that, um, I
feel really passionate about and would love to write. And I'm already in
the mindset of focusing on
writing. Uh, so I better pay
attention to this. Um, and they had done
their homework on me and seen that, um,
uh, some of the retreats I've offered since
2020 have been specifically
for weary faith leaders. Um,
I left full time parish ministry in
2018 and
really, um, launched full, ah, time into
my own, uh, in
2022, after doing sort of
half time in each world for four years.
And, um,
part of my ministry is, uh,
I call it companioning. It's my hybrid
of coaching and spiritual direction.
Um, okay, so I spent about half my time
doing that and about half my time traveling
to lead retreats and do, um,
uh, keynotes and speaking engagements and things like
that. And out in the world,
uh, with many
clergy as clients, many, um,
lay professionals as clients,
it was evident that the
church is at crisis mode when it
comes to burnout. Um,
that many people, especially those
coming to me, obviously they are self selecting
if they're looking for a clergy coach. But,
um, those coming to me were
contemplating, uh, leaving their call,
leaving parish ministry altogether,
leaving the priesthood altogether. I mean, you know,
arranged. But. But there was like, hey,
something's got to give. And in the meantime,
um, anecdotally,
I knew of numerous
faith leaders who were going
on emergency, um,
leave. Like, leave they didn't plan for, like, a
sabbatical, but like, oh, I'm talking to my
bishop tomorrow and two days from now.
I, ah, have started my, um,
medical leave or personal leave
time. Um, seeing that, seeing people go
through even deeper mental
health crisis, uh, it is
clear to me, uh, that
there's an issue at hand. And so,
um,
my role then was to say, how do I,
as someone who deeply understands parish ministry,
but also has the capacity not
spending my full time in a parish these days,
has the capacity to gather
up these weary leaders and say,
what can I provide? What respite can I
lead you to? What nourishment?
Um, can I teach? So I
really do feel like that is, um, a
huge part of my call in this season is,
uh, having the capacity to help others
find their nourishment. I am in the call that I
am deeply called to, and I
love for others to find that, whether it's within their
current call, um, or
something different and new, there is
a crisis at hand.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, you know,
it certainly is there. And I really don't think we're
talking about it, because even I've been trying to
find some data to figure, because I've heard anecdotally,
and by the way, this isn't, uh, at this point, I'm no
longer talking just about the episcopal church. I'm also talking about the
ElCa and the PC USA, which
is just because we're doing. We at Try Tank are doing some work
with several of them on.
I mentioned to one of them just in passing one time, I was like, yeah, I heard
that there's like, the number of young priests
who are not lasting in ministry seems to be
going up, right? And they're like, oh, totally
happening to us as well. Yeah. And I'm like, wait, if we're all
seeing this, why are we not talking about it? Why are we not doing
something about it? Already we have fewer priests
coming in. Why are we doing something to protect
the ones that are there? And I want to get in a moment, just a
moment, as to why do we think that might be happening I have
a couple of theories. You probably have many more than I do since you're
literally living in it and you hear those stories.
But going back to your own, when you left in
2018, uh, parish ministry,
and then when, uh, sort of halftime, the gig
economy, as it were, for those four years before
you were all on your own, what prompted
you to say, because you're
young, so.
>> Callie: Yeah, yeah. So thank
you. I like to think I'm still young. Um,
so,
uh, it was both a push and a pull at the same time. It was a
push, um, out of context that
had, um, become
unhealthy for me. Um,
it was a large system.
It was a system with people reckoning
with their own, um, sense of
gospel and justice. And,
um, I
was a pot stirrer.
I was, uh, bringing, uh, up some hard
truths, and, uh, that was welcomed
by some and hard for some. And, um,
also in my own personal life, I had gone through
a lot of transition, um,
with family, uh, deaths and a divorce,
uh, while in this call. And, uh, it was
sort of, you know, multiple factors saying,
it is time to leave this thing. So there's the push,
the push out there. But,
um, alongside that,
for the
previous decade before that, I had
been, um, you know, when
they, when you go through the discernment process, the
committees say, oh, you know, what kind of
priesthood do you feel called to?
And I would. I would say, you know, it just
hasn't been invented yet. And,
um, I kept.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: They still let you get ordained? What?
>> Callie: Right.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: They're not very welcoming to answers like those.
>> Callie: Oh, yeah. No, I had a few bumps in my process,
and I'm sure that that was why I had a committee
at one point that wanted to help me refine
my answers so that the, uh, commission, ah,
on ministry would pass, um, me more easily. And I
was like, I'd like to just answer authentically.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Should I be honest with you all myself? Or.
>> Callie: So. So, yeah, no, you're right, though. That is
not. It's funny. It was not a
welcome answer. I would be curious to go
back to people going through the process now,
because the full time parish
ministry model is so elusive at this point
that I actually wonder. They are looking for
people with a more open and entrepreneurial
spirit, but still not knowing how to guide those people, which,
uh, is something you and I could probably have a whole series
on between the two of us.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Um.
>> Callie: Oh, my gosh. So you and I
are figuring out our. We're figuring the way,
we're paving the way as we go, because, um,
I think it's still relatively new
to, uh, be a
priestpreneur or a creative minister
or whatever term you want to use for that. So,
you know, I spent a
decade, um, trying to
figure out what that creative
outside of the box ministry looked like.
I had, um. Ah,
I still have the back of an envelope where I
scratched out a bunch of ideas and I
saved it because it's this, you know, this
symbol of me trying to break outside the
box in a system that really likes our
boxes in a lot of ways. So,
yeah, we really like it. I mean, I'm sure you run up against
this with Triton.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: We make them holy.
>> Callie: Try.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: We like our boxes so much. We make them holy.
>> Callie: Oh, I like that.
We like our boxes so much that we make them holy.
Absolutely. And the sacred
cow. Yes, absolutely. Um,
and we tell people, it's always been that way.
This box has always been built. So and so's
grandfather gave us this box.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So, obviously.
>> Callie: Right. So
as I'm trying to figure that out, I'm actually,
uh, 2018. I'm actually looking at a number of
jobs out there in your area, out in the west coast,
because, um, there's so many
diocese out there that have been post
Christendom for so long that they are just willing
to try something
new and different. And I was like, maybe that's where I'm supposed to
be. And I was the finalist, um,
in many searches and.
And sort, uh, of also at the
same time, um, it was the year where
I created the, um,
digital instructed Eucharist called the how to carest,
raised, um, 35,000 on Kickstarter to
make this free resource that is a
great resource, thriving. Thank you. And
it's still thriving and available around the world. And so I
also got to see that people
were, um,
people were really hungry for some
other types of ministry. And
that was finally the point at which I said, oh,
it hasn't been invented yet, because
I have to invent it.
And that was one of those calm moments,
right?
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Eureka.
>> Callie: Looking for it within.
Within the structure of the church. Um,
and there were. There was some,
um, there were some
deep holy
spirit experiences, some deep insights that I had along
the way. And one of them was
actually out in your neck of the woods. I
was, um,
outside of la, maybe Hermosa
beach, I can't remember. It
was, um, a little.
A little espresso shop on the
beach. And I was
sitting in this beautiful, inspired
space. Um, it had, you
know, plants on the walls. It just had that.
That atmosphere of a place where
you want to dream and
at that point, I figured out
that my cause of, I
felt called to teach, to lead,
to create, and to gather community,
and I couldn't figure out how all those things fit together.
And that day, I started to see the shape
of that dream come to life.
And it's taken some different
paths than I originally thought. That day, I thought I would have
a brick and mortar space here in
Philadelphia, um, uh,
and was looking at places to lease in late
2019 and early 2020, and then really felt like I
dodged a bullet in March 2020.
And I was like, maybe. Maybe I don't need a brick and
mortar space. Maybe I can have a virtual
and a traveling space where I take this work to people, where
I help people. One of the things I say about my work is I help people
find their spark, find, uh, their meaning and
purpose in life. So, um.
So, yeah, so my own call
out of parish ministry was both push and
pull, um, uh, drawing
me into this place that
I had felt called to for a long time. But it's
really, uh, it's really
strange to make that leap when you don't know
what's on the other side and you don't have a whole lot of people who
are ahead of you in that.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Correct. There's no models that you can be like, oh, I want to be just
like her, or I want to be like that one, but a little bit different,
or I want to be absolutely. You know, a lot of the work that
we do is creating things. Uh, and
unfortunately, there's a lot of. Of things that we can translate
into the church world, right? It's like the world, the outside, the business
world is doing this. Uh, could we use some of those tools? But
sometimes, like, when it comes to christian formation or something like
that, we are like, okay, what does it look
like today for a new generation? How do we
do that? What is the lived theology of that? How do we
walk into that? And you're right. There's these moments when you're like,
um, I think this is right. I
hope I'm right. But it is that leap of
faith.
>> Callie: It's a leap of faith. And for me, um,
the strangest and
most reassuring part was that as I was
looking at leaving this system where
I had a, ah,
fine salary and benefits and
stability, uh, and
didn't have, um,
didn't have things worked out on the other
end, had some options, but didn't have things fully worked
out, I had the deepest
sense of peace, and that was something that I couldn't
explain. It didn't it didn't calculate on paper,
um, that how many points do I
give to peace?
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: When I'm weighing the pros and cons, how many points do I
give to peace? Is it a lot or a few? I don't
know.
>> Callie: Right, right. But when your soul is
so deeply at peace, especially in a season
where you haven't felt that much
peace, um, that is worth paying attention
to. That's worth paying attention to.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And St. Ignatius would say that that is the
consolation of God, right. That you're feeling the consolation and
the God's closeness to you, which is why you feel that peace.
It is in the bible, right. It is the calming
of the seas. It's like you have to not be worried about
anything. I am right here with you. I was asleep.
>> Callie: Right, right. And that's what I mean.
I want everyone to experience that. I don't think there are
some, some people that look at what I do and think, oh,
that'd be so great. Like, I just. I want to leave.
I want to leave my job and go do what you do. Um.
This is not for everyone, dear reader.
There's a steep learning curve to this.
And, um. And I love
it. I love it, I thrive in
it. It is hard work
and, um, I
don't believe it's for everyone, but I do believe that everyone
should have this, uh,
thrill of feeling like
they are doing the thing that they are most
fully called to do.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, that's a beautiful way of putting it.
Uh, going back for a second, you mentioned that it was
still a sort of new way of being. Right. There were
priests or less than full time and we're trying to figure out, cobble
together some jobs to make it a full
time job, uh, to the church pension.
Uh, what's interesting to me is it's
56% of the priests in the church right
now are less than full time. It is still
called the new emerging model. I'm
like, um. I don't think it's emerging. I think it's
arrived. It has emerged, people. It is
here.
>> Callie: Yes, we've done arrived.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yes. If you were to divide
all of our congregations into four sets, the
set congregations that have two or more
priests, that number is in the teens, but it
is dropping the set of
congregation. No, I'm sorry, that's, that's below teens. That's in the
single digits that have two or more priests, that
number is in the single digits. And dropping the number of
congregations that are one, uh,
priest full time and maybe a little bit clerical help or
whatnot. That number is in the teens and
dropping the two that are growing.
The largest growing is the one that is less than
full time. Ah, so. And I've seen it divided
as much as to someone, uh, was
supposed to give only like 4 hours a week as like,
don't call that a part time job. You're just a supply priest at that point,
right. It's no longer, what is that 130 second of,
you know, one 10th of a job. So, um.
And then, and that number is in the teens and
growing, and then the, or maybe even higher
than teens. I wish I had that chart in front of me. I, uh. And then the final
number is the congregations that are lay led and which is
also growing by leaps and bounds. Yes,
because, ah, although the number of priests has gone down, the number of
buildings has not kept up with that. If
you look between 2010 and
2022, the number of priests went down by a good
number, uh, something like
30%, and yet the number of buildings went down by something like
4%. So
we're not really. So let's talk a little bit about
why do you think this is happening. Why do you think that people.
Well, actually, I say all that to
say. I think my theory as to why burnout
is happening is in those numbers,
is when you have
congregations, I don't
really believe the congregations really understand
what it means to be a part time clergy person. They still
expect you to be there when they need you and every Sunday.
And so when they say your quarter time
for them, it's like, so you're here on Sunday, and when I need you
for a pastoral emergency, I'm
like, uh, that doesn't seem fair, because then
you're basically asking for a full time job for a quarter
time pay. So I think that has the
fact that it's one person in the church. I was talking this morning with another
person who's like, I work from home, because
at, uh, the office, I'm the only one there at the church.
And that just feels, in such a big building, so lonely to
me. So why would I be there? And
so I think that the loneliness, the fact that
clergy no longer have mentors, right, the curacies are
mostly gone, so you don't have the opportunity to learn under
someone and be like, okay, now I feel like I sort of get this. I found
my voice as a priest, I can go and do this.
So those are sort of my theories, the loneliness, and that we're not
really prepared for it. And so when the shock happens,
you're like, oh, uh, I can probably do more, more good
in the world. Working for a nonprofit, maybe, or just, this isn't
it for me, though, from the people that you've talked
to, what are you seeing? If you were to put some whys out there,
why do you think this is happening?
>> Callie: Yeah, so, um, those are
definitely part of it. Um, uh,
we've seen especially a crisis
in the past four years,
surprise, surprise, since the start of the
pandemic, uh, for two
reasons. Not just the pandemic, but I'll address
that first. Uh, that goes
along with, um, what you're talking about
as
shrinking pool of clergy, shrinking pool
of sustainable calls.
And I mean, like a full time living,
uh, wage position. Um,
is not what a lot of priests
signed up for. That's what I hear a lot. This is
nothing what I signed up for.
Um, whether it's those of us
who have been ordained more than a decade.
And, um,
that's, uh, you know, we've seen a
different model. We've seen a more vibrant model before
that. Or, uh, those who have
been ordained more recently, those who came through
seminary in, uh, the early
pandemic, uh, they were like, this is not
what I pictured. I didn't picture,
um, so many people didn't really even meet their
congregations for two years because they started
right before or right after the start of the
pandemic. Um, and, uh,
we are an embodied people.
We use
all of our senses in worship.
And you and I, I'm sure, could argue all day about the
importance of digital
gathering, that that's deeply important as
well. But if you suddenly take
away the embodiment.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah. The incarnational part of it, if you will.
>> Callie: The incarnational part, absolutely. I mean, when
I. On a Sunday, um,
and I am. I do have a place where I
hang my hat on Sundays and I
adore them.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Um, where you hang your stole.
>> Callie: Where hang my stole. I do.
Um, and you know,
there are studies about, um,
about touch and how much
touch each of us needs. Like
basic need. Whether someone says I'm a hugger or I'm not a
hugger, we all sort of have a basic
need for touch. And Sunday mornings,
for some people, it is the only
time in the course of a week that they
will experience touch, a handshake or a
hug during the, um,
peace. Uh, that pressing
into your hand of the bread during
communion, um, that touch
is deeply, deeply important. That's part of who we are.
So some people are like, wait a minute, this isn't what
I signed up for. Uh, maybe
the technological pieces, um.
Uh, it was a lot for people
in all sorts of professions. Um, one m
of my child's teachers was just so
overwhelmed with having to lead school
online. That's not what they signed up for either. So there's that
feeling of, that's not what I signed up for. There was
also in early
2020, we had the
murder of several black individuals. We had
George Floyd's murder, we had Breonna Taylor's murder. We
had Ahmaud Arberes, murderous.
I think it caused a lot of people,
especially
white clergy, white leaders, to say,
what am I doing?
That is actually impactful and actually
changing.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: The world.
>> Callie: Is what I'm doing enough? And
a feeling of helplessness
also, coupled with just,
just reckoning with some of the,
it's not as if the church itself is a bright spot of
justice always. And so,
no comments. Right?
So, so, so reckoning with all of that and
saying, like you said, do I just go work at a nonprofit? I think there
are many reasons that people said, like, you know, I'm
disillusioned. I'm disillusioned.
Um, and, um,
people were trying to figure out,
people were torn, trying to figure out, making decisions
about whether their congregation would meet in person or not, people
figuring out whether to preach on racial
injustice or not. Um, and feeling like,
damned if you do, damned if you don't. Um,
someone always had an opinion. Someone in parish
ministry always has an opinion. Usually
twelve different opinions at once. So
I think, I think there's that, um, the
isolation and loneliness is huge.
Comparison. Comparison is huge. We
do,
I don't know about all professions.
Uh, I have heard other people say that this is
rampant for them as well, in
non church professions, but we do a lot of
comparison. I have people, um, and does that.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Mean, just to clarify on that one is that, like, I
compare my church and how we're doing versus another
church down the street or another church in.
>> Callie: Another city,
churches and individual leadership as
well. So m
I, uh, and I, like you said, with
the different denominations, my clients
span american, uh,
Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian,
Methodist, UcC. I
have, I have a range of folks
as well. So, um, I would say pretty
universally that these are happening, uh,
in all churches. But,
um, we find ourselves comparing ourselves
to one another. And comparison is a little
subset of shame. Comparison
is, uh, that feeling and shame serves
to immobilize us, not make us want to do
better or be stronger. Uh,
actually makes us smaller and says, oh, like,
you should probably just, uh,
stop where you are. And so a lot of people
get stuck in comparison, and it
happens to clergy. We do all sorts
of types of comparison. Some of us get together as
clergy and we say, ah, uh,
my. You know, my church is doing great, and someone else is like,
oh, gosh, my church is not doing great. Shoot. Do I speak
up in this crowd or not? But it also works in the
opposite, where people say, um, it's
like the contest. It's the busyness contest. And
the, um, like, how. How
bad do I have it contest, too. We like to
wear those things as badges of honor as
well. And again,
earlier in the pandemic, all we were
seeing from one another Washington, um,
meeting, uh, in digital spaces, which
tend, uh, to be more highly
curated and filtered and things
like that. And so, um,
people were saying, like, oh, these other people
seem to have it together. They seem to have it figured out
right now. They seem to have a clean house.
When I, you know, I would often
turn my camera around, like, here I am sitting
in this beautiful space that is also,
uh, our laundry room that we've made into an office. But
if I had the camera turned in the other direction, you would
see my laundry hanging to dry, waiting
to be folded. So
comparison. Comparison is another
source of our
weariness. Isolation, overwhelm,
um, the, uh,
sense that clergy often have
to
either have it all together or have spaces where
they can work out what they don't have together
that aren't their congregations. Um,
our congregants are often using
the parish as their
primary community, and,
uh, parish clergy spend a. Even
more time than congregants in that community.
But it can't serve. It
usually can't serve as their primary community
because of their role, because of
power and how all of those things work.
And so, uh, if they're spending most of
their time and expending most of their energy there,
but also have to be the one who's guiding
others and not bleeding on others and all of
that, where do they go? Are people
actually making time and space.
Space to have their own communities, to
have their own, um, team of
professionals, like therapists and coaches and things
like that?
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And that brings us, I think it's a good segue into
your book, uh, from weary to
wholehearted. And the claim
in the subtitle is kind of big, isn't it? Is a
restorative resource for overcoming clergy
burnout. Is it a how to manual to
overcome clergy burnout? If I'm
overwhelmed and burnt out, I just pick up your book and I'm all good,
right, I'm set to go.
>> Callie: I hope so.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: If only.
>> Callie: Yeah. If only. And, uh, you
know, that was, uh, the publisher felt like it was
important to have, um, clergy burnout in the
subtitle. But anyone listening, I want you to know that
so many lay people have read this and said,
uh, yes, this deeply resonates with
me as well. I think it is a problem of our
time. And, yes, we're
particularly focusing in this conversation on, um,
clergy burnout, because that is, uh. That is
our arena.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, that's what listens. So, mainly.
>> Callie: So, yeah, overcoming. Overcoming clergy
burnout. Um. Uh,
what my hope is,
what my
really small, achievable
hope is that
by, um, reading this book, or
even by knowing of this book's existence, by reading
the intro of this book, that
you will be reminded that you are not alone.
That is my very, like, baseline hope.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And that is great, because, as you were mentioning
earlier, shame is a, uh, part of this,
and shame thrives on you thinking, I'm the only one
ever who has felt this and I am failing. Obviously,
not just my congregation, but Jesus, baby Jesus, is going to m come
down and slap me in the face.
>> Callie: Yeah. Right, right. So
if there is a whole book
devoted to clergy burnout, you have to
imagine that you're not the only one. And, in fact,
there must be a handful of others. Right?
So it helps normalize. Uh,
it. It helps you,
uh, put words to it some of us don't
even have. So I always do,
often, um, do a primer when I'm doing a
keynote of stress versus
overwhelm and, uh,
overwhelm and burnout being siblings, but stress being, like, a
lower level of those. And how do we know if we're in
stress or if we're in burnout, right. It helps
to actually be able to dive into this and
say, oh, what am I in right
now? Because having a name for
something is just like going to the doctor
with, um, having symptoms for several
months or several years and finally receiving a
diagnosis. And once you receive a
diagnosis, a few things happen. Even if it's a scary
diagnosis, a lot of people report feeling
relieved, and it's because,
again, it reminds you that someone
else has this thing out there because there's a name for it.
Right. It helps you, uh,
helps you know, what you're dealing with. It validates
the experience you've been having, and it
often opens up the pathway
for resources, for help,
for treatment, whatever it might be. And so being
able to say, oh, yeah, that is burnout. So
my hope is that someone would either pick this up
when they are already at the point of burnout or
have already experienced that and figure out how to
walk it back. But also, just, like, with any
good, uh, with any good
therapy, I also hope there's a
huge number of people who are picking it up as a
preventative tool.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Absolutely. And that is a hope, right? That you don't
have to be in burnout to be able to say, I want to be able
to recognize if I'm getting close to it so that I
can take preventative measures
to make sure that it is not something that I want to fall
into because nobody wants to. I have seen careers.
I have seen people walk away from careers and
literally be like, I need to just take a year to just get
away from ministry, get away from everything. I just. I
just can't even, like, I find it
difficult to, like, even open my bible right now. I just
cannot. Cannot. And that's. That's when you've gone
too far, right? That's when it's like, oh, if only we had caught
it, you know, four or five months ago, when it was still.
You could have still said, like, oh, wait, because I love. In your book,
part seven is my favorite, I think, which is where you talk about,
uh, reigniting your spark. But I love
the fact that before that, before you
reignite in part six, you're talking about, you need to
prioritize, rest. You need to take
time to do that. You need to take time.
So, uh, what I like about seven, it's very
Lorenzo, right, in the sense, it's so hopeful. It's like there's a. You can. You'll
get over this. You'll. You'll be fine. Uh,
but that. You need to recognize where you're at.
You need to work on it. But I love this again,
this additional call to rest. Right,
to know that.
>> Callie: Well. And you'll notice that
the book follows the
liturgical year as well. And so
when we start, we are.
I'm addressing a, um. Uh.
I'm addressing the source of weariness that is caused
by, um, the desire to make an impact.
And I draw on Mary's, uh,
magnificat. And we start in
the very beginning. We start in advent. And so by time we
get to part
five, we are actually in
holy week, and we stare into the
tomb. We stare into the tomb together, and we
say, how bad is it? That's a question
I ask in there is, how bad is
it? Um, again, like I said, being
able to assess and know, um. Do
I need to. Do I need to step
away altogether? Do I need to just get
some buttresses, uh, and
reinforce what's going on here. Um,
and so that part where we're talking about
prioritizing rest, that is
going into Easter, and
how I start that section
is by looking at.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Mary, uh.
>> Callie: Magdalene at the tomb, and in
two different accounts, just sort of, uh, splicing
together, uh, the gospels in two different accounts.
We hear the words, um, uh,
woman, why are you weeping? And then he is not
here, but is risen. Right. And
so I think that that is a
key question for us. When
we have been so
deeply staring into despair
and overwhelm and been in a place of burnout,
is how do we actually turn away from
the tomb? Then how do we actually seek life
and seek rest? Because that is
important, too. We do need to acknowledge when
we are in the tomb. But then how do
we actually reorient our life
toward glimmers of hope
again?
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Because there is. There would be a tendency, I can
imagine, if you've gone really far into the tomb, if you've
gone really far into this despair, there's a
tendency that. To sort of get stuck there, to say,
this is where I'm at, and this is.
This is just. And by this brings up, I think, another
point, and, uh, I see the time. So we're going to have to come to.
But, um. Um, how much of
this, if you will, is that
we add spirituality on top of it ourselves?
I'm letting God down,
but I know that I'm supposed to suffer. I'm supposed
to be the wounded healer. I know that people
become martyrs by dying for their faith. I know,
right? We have all these examples that are held up by the
church are people who have suffered, people
we don't necessarily hold up a lot of examples, like, and this
person was really joyful the whole time, and they just lived
a wonderful life. So be like them.
>> Callie: Right?
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: The ones that we do have as examples
are the ones that are like, yeah, you want to be a martyr? They're the ones that
you wear the red shoes for. They're the ones that. So
how much of that is our own? Sort of just putting
the spirituality on top of it.
>> Callie: Yeah. So. So,
um. There's. There's
so much there. There's the,
um.
You reminded me in saying that, of the caveat that
I always try to bring up, and that is that, yes,
many of us are weary, but there
also are a category. There's a
category, uh, of clergy that I would
call thriving clergy. And I
also make it.
Make a point of lifting them up as well,
because if we're spending so much time talking
about and dwelling on
those who are struggling. Those
who are thriving don't feel like they have a space to
say, hey, I'm thriving, because they feel like they're going to bring
other people, ah, they're going to make other people feel
bad or something like that. And so,
yes, we do need, like you said, to
uplift those examples of someone who is
joyous or who is thriving. We absolutely need to do
that. Then there's also, I think there's a
chicken or egg situation, uh, too, that
a lot of people who are drawn to the
priesthood, um, you
said wounded healer. A lot of us are wounded. A lot of us come
from some sort of,
um, childhood
trauma of. I, uh, know a number
of clergy who are adult children of
alcoholics. Um, so many things like
that. And so
we. We care deeply. We enter
these vocations because we want
to bring care to others. But we also might be
carrying baggage of codependency
and other things like that, which, when mixed
with what you're talking about, the spiritual things, uh,
we sort of just like, oh, this is my lot in
life, or, um, we
theologize those things. And, um,
I. We are good at giving other people
advice that we ourselves won't take.
Uh, we can tell other people to rest. Um, I am
really good at this as a clergy coach. I'm
really, really good at giving people permission slips and
then turning around and,
uh, saying yes
to too many things or not taking off on a
sick day, because when you're an entrepreneur, sick
days aren't paid time off for you.
So, you know, there's non paid.
They are, they are. If I cancel, I cancel, and
I cancel my income for that day, too. So,
you know, there's, ah, I'm in charge of my own schedule, which is
fantastic. And. And there are, you
know, but, um. Yeah, I think that
we're, um,
always struggling to figure out,
um, who we are in God's economy.
We're always struggling to remember the
truths that I put in this book, that I put at the very
beginning, and I ask people to just trust me
on them. The truths are that we are
made in God's own image, that we are
all a Magodei, um, that we are
beloved children of God, that we are enough
as we are. And I don't think a lot of
people believe those. I know I can't just put them and say, just trust me. But I'm like,
just suspende, suspend your disbelief for a
moment. If you don't believe that like, let's
function under the reality where
those things are real. Because if we read
the gospels, those things are real. God. We are
God's beloved children, and we are enough as we are. We
do not.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: I think as we're getting closer to burnout, we tend to
push those things. Well, maybe they're real for Callie, but they're
not really real for me in my reality.
>> Callie: Absolutely.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Here. This is. I no longer feel it.
>> Callie: Yeah. Yeah. So. So we can't
do any of this work if we
can't rest in our own belovedness at the start.
Because if we are not resting in our own
belovedness, why would we invest in ourselves?
Why would we put in the time and effort
into someone who is not fully beloved, and
that person, in this case, is ourselves? So. So
that is a basic building block. It's a basic build.
Basic building block of the. This work is. Do I
believe that I'm worthy of love and belonging?
And that's something we have to return to again and again and
again and again.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah. No, and, you know, for those, uh, when you pick up
the book, if, uh. As Callie says, if you.
Another way of putting it is if. Fake it till you make it. Uh,
just for while you're reading this book, while you're doing this,
just go ahead and believe it. Uh, when you put the book down, you can go
back to believe. When you can, by the end of it, you will hopefully get
to a different point where you are and with
yourself. Uh, the name of the book, from
weary to wholehearted. A restorative
resource for overcoming clergy
burnout. Uh, it is available now on
Kindle and on books bookstores,
wherever your favorite books are sold. I'm still waiting for
the audio version, which I hope you'll make, uh, because it would be nice
to have you here. You read it to us. Uh,
Callie, thanks so much for being with us. We really, really enjoy.
I really enjoy this conversation, and I'm sure that our listeners, I speak
for them when I say, thank you for this resource.
Thank you for the work that you do and for the example that
it doesn't all have to be, uh, in
one way, that ours is still a creative God
doing wonderful things in the world, and we just sometimes
have to hold our breath, even if we don't believe it all
and just walk and say, okay, lord, here I go.
Show me that glimmer.
>> Callie: Amen. Amen. Amen. And I would love
to. I'd love to close with one of the prayers that I wrote
for the book. It's from that, uh, chapter seven or that
section seven that you talked about? Um.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Oh, perfect. Yeah, part seven. Yeah, absolutely.
>> Callie: Yeah. This is a
prayer for tending our fire.
Let us pray.
O radiant fire, glowing
so brightly we must shield our eyes.
O holy spirit, quiet as a dove
and forceful as a wind.
Do not let us be unmoved.
Light a fire within us that burns
so deeply we cannot ignore.
Grant us strength to begin again
and courage to speak our wildest
dreams. Shield us from the
hubris of needing to be the expert and
give us the eyes and heart of a
novice until your dazzling
presence comes down again.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Amen. Um.
>> Callie: Amen.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Um, that should be a morning prayer for
priests in their first year of priesthood. Every day for a
year. Every day for a year. A new priest should read that.
Callie, thanks again. Uh, it's been a pleasure.
>> Callie: Yes, absolutely.