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Few people had an impact on my founder journey as Dr. Sherry Walling — and she didn't even know. But I got to tell her! We discussed burnout, imposter syndrome, and stress among founders. Sherry explained the need for mental health professionals who understand the unique challenges of entrepreneurship and shared that burnout is a diagnosable issue.
While entrepreneurs have more control over their work, long hours and hustle culture can still lead to burnout. Her book, "The Entrepreneur's Guide to Keeping Your Shit Together," helped me during a period of burnout while selling my business.
Now, you get to learn from her and her deeply actionable insights into founder psychology.
00:00:00 Introduction to Sherry Walling
While entrepreneurs have more control over their work, long hours and hustle culture can still lead to burnout. Her book, "The Entrepreneur's Guide to Keeping Your Shit Together," helped me during a period of burnout while selling my business.
Now, you get to learn from her and her deeply actionable insights into founder psychology.
00:00:00 Introduction to Sherry Walling
00:03:13 Mental health in the entrepreneur community.
00:09:17 Do entrepreneurs have control over their destiny?
00:15:22 How do you find good mastermind groups?
00:21:52 Mental health is not always called mental health
00:28:20 Grief is the emotional reaction to loss
00:34:06 You can have relationships with people who don’t get it.
00:40:24 Mental health apps are not a replacement for therapy.
00:45:59 Why aren’t more people talking about mental health?
The WIRED article about mental health apps: https://www.wired.com/story/are-mental-health-apps-worth-trying/
My new podcast project: Arvid & Tyler Catch Up / https://catchup.fm
The blog post: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/dr-sherry-walling-the-reality-of-burnout-for-entrepreneurs/
The blog post: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/dr-sherry-walling-the-reality-of-burnout-for-entrepreneurs/
The podcast episode: https://share.transistor.fm/s/dc436cce
You'll find my weekly article on my blog: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com
Newsletter: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/newsletter
My book Zero to Sold: https://zerotosold.com/
My book The Embedded Entrepreneur: https://embeddedentrepreneur.com/
My course Find Your Following: https://findyourfollowing.com
This interview is sponsored by Acquire.com
Creators & Guests
Host
What is The Bootstrapped Founder?
Arvid Kahl talks about starting and bootstrapping businesses, how to build an audience, and how to build in public.
Arvid Kahl: Hello, everyone and
welcome to The Bootstrapped
Founder. My name is Arvid Kahl
and I talk about bootstrapping,
entrepreneurship and building in
public. Today, I'm talking to
Dr. Sherry Walling. She's a
speaker, author, and
psychologist. Her work had a
profound impact on my founder
journey. It was the book that I
was reading her book, The
Entrepreneur's Guide to Keeping
Your Shit Together, that really
helped me while preparing my own
business for an exit. And it
materially changed my stress and
anxiety levels for the better
after I was done reading it.
Unsurprisingly, I wanted to talk
to Sherry about mental health
topics that every founder
struggles with: burnout,
impostor syndrome and just being
stressed out of our minds. We
live through that every day.
There's a lot we have to deal
with as entrepreneurs. And it's
very useful to have a mental
health professional in our
ranks. And Sherry is that person
for so many founders. Before we
get started with a conversation
with Dr. Sherry Walling, let me
thank the sponsor for this show,
acquire.com. Imagine this, your
founder who's built a solid SaaS
product, you acquired customers
and the products generally
consistent in its monthly
recurring revenue. The problem
is you're not growing for
whatever reason, lack of focus
or lack of skill or just plain
lack of interest and you feel
stuck. What should you do? Well,
the story that I would like to
hear is that you buckled down
and somehow reignited the fire
of get going and getting past
yourself and the cliches and
then started working on your
business rather than just in the
business. That would be great.
You start building an audience
and you move out of your comfort
zone and do sales and marketing,
all the things we don't like to
do. And in six months, you've
tripled your revenue. Well, the
reality isn't as simple as this.
Situations may be different for
every founder facing this
crossroad. But too many times
the story ends up being one of
inaction and stagnation until
the business becomes less
valuable or worse, worthless. If
you find yourself here or your
story is likely headed down a
similar road, well, let me offer
you a third option. Consider
selling your business on
acquire.com, capitalizing on the
value of your time is the smart
move here. Acquire.com is free
to list and they've helped
hundreds of founders already. So
go to acquire.com and see for
yourself if this is the right
option for you. And now here is
Dr. Sherry Walling.
Awhile ago, I asked my followers
on Twitter if they ever
experienced burnout and 89% of
them said that they have been
experiencing it in the past or
that they are currently mid
burnout. That's 1 in 10 of my
audience on Twitter. And I was
extremely surprised by this. If
mental health is such an
incredibly common problem, 9 out
of 10 people experience it. Why
do we so rarely talk about it in
our communities? There's still a
taboo around it. What do you
know about this lack of
communication about this very
important topic?
Dr. Sherry Walling: I mean, I
talk about it all day, every
day. It's the thing I dug about
and there certainly are, I think
the conversation around mental
health in the entrepreneur
community has really opened up
quite a bit in the last 5 to 10
years. When I first started in
this space, in like 2015-2016,
it was really quite unusual. I
think one of the things that
makes it difficult to talk about
is that there aren't as much as
we would like there to be these
lovely clickbaity, five things
that you can do to solve
burnout, they're harder than
that. And so burnout,
prevention, burnout
identification, they're actually
sort of complicated processes.
And they don't lend themselves
super easily to a nice
clickbaity soundbite or a tweet.
So to talk about mental health
in a really meaningful way, it's
actually a pretty nuanced
conversation that sometimes
founders don't have the time and
energy for, don't make the time
and energy for.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, I think it's a
priority problem for many
people, right? They see so many
other things that they need to
tackle that are more tangible,
maybe. Maybe solutions are more
apparent to these problems. So
they kind of dismiss the whole
conversation. It's unfortunate,
I feel. I wish people would talk
about it more and feel to be
more of a problem that they need
to actually address.
Dr. Sherry Walling: There's kind
of like a normalization of
burnout. Like you just don't
expect that if you're founder,
you're going to have burnout.
And that's not correct. And it's
actually very problematic
because burnout, which we can
get into in more detail if you
want to, but burnout, true
burnout is actually brain
damage. It's like, directly
observable on a functional MRI.
And so for us to normalize, oh,
we just do this to ourselves. We
just run our braids ragged,
that's just part of it, I think
is a pretty unacceptable way to
operate.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, if it's
something real and that's, I
usually compare this to
something like imposter
syndrome, which isn't even a
syndrome, right? It's the
imposter phenomenon for many
people, at least apparently, in
the clinical world as much as I
know it. So that is something
that also exists, but it's by
far not as medically studied and
proven. And actually a problem
like a mental health issue as
burnout is. And I sometimes
wonder, people don't even go to
great lengths to talk to mental
health or any medical
professionals about it. They
self diagnose. That was the same
for me. Like, I think, I believe
I've experienced burnout twice
in my life. I have no medical
trail, like I never went to an
actual psychologist or just talk
to anybody in the field. I just
thought, oh, this is bad. I need
to take time away from this and
all that. So I kind of even
then, knowing that I had a
problem, I struggled to seek
medical help. Do you know why I
did that? Can you diagnose me
right now?
Dr. Sherry Walling: I do think
that people don't know that
burnout is a formal diagnoseable
problem. And I will also say
that often the psychological or
mental health community is not
super adept at dealing with
burnout. We often misdiagnose it
as depression or we often just
misdiagnose it as generalized
anxiety or something else. So I
think there's a both and problem
when it comes to really getting
good care for burnout when
people don't recognize that that
would be helpful. And two, it's
harder than it should be to find
mental health professionals or
medical professionals who really
understand burnout, especially
the context that comes with a
founder. To be honest, if you
looked at the psychological
profile of most founders, they
look a little bit like somebody
who's a little bit manic, has
maybe a little bipolar too going
on, is a little bit obsessive
and then has these sort of fits
of depression. And so I think
it's really easy for mental
health professionals to
pathologize founders and not
understand the context and the
amount of passion and drive and
energy that goes into growing a
business. And I think that's
where we miss each other a
little bit.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that was
exactly what I was wondering
when I saw my 89% of people
telling me and I think it was 10
ish or 20% that we're in burnout
right now as per their self
diagnosis. And I was thinking,
man, is that just an
entrepreneurial thing? Is that
just the founder, kind of people
just have an easier time having
a hard time? Does it hit
entrepreneurs harder than other
groups have? Have you
experienced this?
Dr. Sherry Walling: So it's a
little bit tricky because I
think burnout is also a nice
phrase to describe a number of
different things. So sometimes
people will say, I think I'm
burned out and then you dig into
their life and their situation.
And it's like, oh, you are in
very significant grief. Or
sometimes people will say, I'm
burned out and I dig a little
bit and I'm like, oh, wait,
actually you're like clinically
depressed like, just textbook
depression. But burnout is an
easier term to talk about even
though it is still stigmatized.
It's maybe less stigmatized than
some other things. So that's one
of the problems that I think is
happening. There was an
interesting study that came out
relatively recently that
suggested that entrepreneurs
actually have less burnout than
your nine to five employee. And
some of that is because there
are these key things that drive
burnout. Some of them are better
for founders, like, one of the
drivers of burnout is the
mismatch between what you think
is important and how you spend
your time. So at least
entrepreneurs are choosing,
right? They are deciding what
business they want to build.
They are giving their time and
energy towards something that
they're choosing. They're not
out of control. They're very
much in control. So that's a
protective factor that helps
prevent burnout that's not
present in you know, our
brothers and sisters who are
working in a cubicle coding for
a large company where they don't
have choice or control.
Arvid Kahl: That's such a great
point. Because as now, after
selling a business, I'm very
much in control of what I'm
doing. And I am my own boss,
really. And I'm telling myself
that I'm gonna do this and if
it's too much for me, I'm just
gonna step back a little bit. I
have nobody who's kind of
conflating this for me or
telling me to do stuff I don't
want to do so I feel extremely
at ease in what I do even
though, you know, being an
introvert, having conversations
with people is not like the most
enjoyable thing really, like I
think hanging out with my puppy
is a more enjoyable thing.
Dr. Sherry Walling: That's a
relationship for you.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, really, it
really is. Because the puppy
doesn't challenge me, you know.
She does but in different ways.
But I know, obviously, that
having a conversation with you
is an important part of what I
can do to help other people. So
I know that there's meaning to
this. And it's what I want to
do, right? It's not the mismatch
between I don't wanna go with
this, but I actually want to do
this, so I get it. But I do
wonder sometimes with founders
in particular, who are building
their first business, people who
still have something to prove if
that is a phrase that we should
ever use in terms of building a
business. They often follow what
I would describe as hustle
culture or the grind set, right?
This kind of put all your energy
and all your time into your
business or else you'll never
make it. And that seems very
disjointed from this I have
control over my destiny
conversation we're currently
having.
Dr. Sherry Walling: Yeah,
sometimes we say, oh, good,
you're an entrepreneur. You can
choose to work whichever 20
hours in a day you'd like. Like
you get control and choose.
Yeah, I mean, hustle porn,
hustle culture much of it is
based on a real sort of limited
understanding of how our brains
actually work. And so a little
bit of a scratch into some
basic, like neuroscience 101.
And I think most people will
come away feeling like, oh,
that's not the right strategy.
There's a difference between
doing a lot of work and doing
our best work. And I think
sometimes that's where founders
make maybe a less than ideal
trade is this sense that hours
logged leads directly to
outcomes. And, you know, there
are days when that's true, but
generally speaking, the quality
of your work time is a much
better predictor of your
creative thought and of your
ability to implement a new or
novel idea than just sort of
putting in the hours. And I do
think that it is sort of hustle
culture, hustle porn that is the
allure to believe that burnout
is not only normal, but like a
badge of honor, like sort of
like if you're not burnt out,
what are you doing with
yourself? You must not care
about your company. You must not
be motivated. And of course,
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, it often comes
from comparison, right? You
compare yourself to other
people's stellar performance,
those things are not true.
the things they choose to share,
and you see all these founders
crushing it, a phrase that I
personally hate a lot because
it's obviously just a reflection
on what they want to portray.
It's not the reality of their
lives, because no business is
ever without problems or
setbacks or anything like it.
And I wonder, I think it's human
nature to compare yourselves to
your peers to see where you
stand, because we want to see
that the social context in which
we operate, and if we're
conforming with the what people
expect us to be and you know,
there are many layers to this
but how can people avoid
comparing themselves to the
wrong people and then following
these hustle culture evangelists
who themselves probably even
operate in the way that they
give advice.
Dr. Sherry Walling: Right? I
think one of the really helpful
place of comparison is maybe not
the word that I would use. But a
helpful way to learn from and be
on the journey with other people
is to be in a mastermind group,
or something where you get a
deeper look into how another
business is truly functioning. I
think another way to do that is
to have a mentor, I mean, maybe
even someone that you pay, maybe
they're a business coach, but a
mentor who has truly done it
before, and you get the deep
dive gritty look into how they
function and how they work. So
anybody who is selling you
something, or anybody who is
proclaiming the benefits of
their strategies on social
media, you're just not getting a
deep enough dive into who they
are and how their business works
to know if it's at all relevant
to you. And relevancy is a
really key businesses are
different different sort of, you
know, industries and customer
bases are really different. And
so having a sounding board with
other founders that's tailored
and specific is most helpful to
you.
Arvid Kahl: That's great. That's
why I'm such a big fan of
building and public because
people who Build in public and
share the ups and the downs with
a focus on the failures and the
struggle, the mistakes and the
learning set they have, they
paint a much more realistic
picture of what the business is
like and surrounding ourselves
with people who are honest
enough to build in public also
creates relationships with
honest people who will give you
their honest feedback. If you're
doing something you should
probably not be doing it. That's
why I'm a big fan of this. And I
guess a mastermind is privatize
building public group, if that
makes sense. You know, like a
little, little group of that
where people keep it to
themselves, but do share with
each other. And I think it's a
great step for people to start.
Do you have any ideas how people
can easily find them? Because
I've always found not maybe not
easily but reliably find good
mastermind groups? Because
personally, I've always had
trouble as an introvert, again,
talking to people to even get
into the door, right to get my
foot into the door, that always
was a challenge to overcome this
person. I don't know them. Why
would they talk to me? Like, I
would assume that a lot of
founders, particularly the ones
coming from a technical
background, have a little bit of
introversion in them. So how can
they overcome that particular
self blocking device?
Dr. Sherry Walling: I mean, not
to like promote by husband stuff
but MicroConf does have a
mastermind matching service at
this point. There's also another
one, that I'm not sure if it's
still going. But mastermind jam
was a service that a friend can
did for many years, I'm not
totally sure if that's still
happening. But the MicroConf one
is for sure. I think it's a
good, it's a good thing to even
crowdsource right to put out to
Twitter and to try to connect
with some people who are
interested in a mastermind, I do
find more value in ones that are
like externally organized and
have maybe a nominal or a
minimal fee, because that puts
skin in the game. The worst
thing is getting into a
mastermind group with people who
say they're committed and then
they don't show up, you know,
and it's, you're just chasing
them to get on their calendar
that it that's not good for
anybody. So some kind of like
base level of commitment is
really important in a mastermind
group.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, yeah. skin in
the game, I think is for any
relationship that has a business
connotation is an important
part. I love that. And by the
way, I give you blanket
permission to advertise whatever
your husband does. family
business, because honestly, if
it wasn't for MicroConf, I
probably wouldn't be here.
Right. MicroConf gave me the
first stage quite literally, for
what I had to say when I was
there in 2019 in Dubrovnik with
Danielle, we talked about having
sold our business on stage as an
attendee talk. And that was
essentially my foray into
talking about entrepreneurship.
And from there, all the way up.
So it's evening, it's due to
Rob, that is funny, because you
are also connected to our sale
in the way and I'll tell you in
a second, it's for Rob's
conference that I got my Twitter
situation going. But it was
mostly for you a book, the first
the first book that I ever read
of you, the entrepreneurs guide
to keeping a shit together. I
read this while we were selling
our business. And I was and that
was mid 2019. And that was in my
my own memory, which is kind of,
you know, a bit spotty, because
it was a weird and very intense
time. Intense time, right? It
was incredibly intense. even
thinking about it is a heart
rate increasing endeavor. For me
at this point, it really is I'm
noticing a physical sensation
right now. I was either at the
verge off or mid burnout, I
don't really know. It was it was
a strong I had high anxiety
levels, I was extremely
stressed, trouble sleeping,
physical reactions, gut health
was off. Like all of that kind
of stuff happened to me at the
time. It's one of the reasons
that we actually sold the
business at that point was
because I just couldn't really
handle all the responsibility of
being one of two people in a
business, Danielle and I never
hired anybody. And being the
only technical person in that
business, being tasked with
solving all the problems of our
five and a half 1000 customer
base. It was a lot. And your
book, I remember this still
very, very visually gave me a
lot of solace and hope for being
able to, to weather this time
and find the greener grass on
the other side of this eye. It
may not be as eloquent,
eloquently expressed as I would
like it to be. But I think
reading a book from somebody's
perspective, who understands how
stress and anxiety works in a
person and what it makes you do
and not do, just knowing that
I'm not alone, and that there is
a way out of this was incredibly
helpful. So thank you so much
for enabling me to go through
this process and holding my hand
a little bit right through the
magic of authorship throughout
this stressful time and enabling
me to just get rid of the my own
self inflicted and external
pressure and make my life
better. I'm happy at this point,
because in large part to your
guidance for this book,
Dr. Sherry Walling: Well,
there's no kind of words you
could give an author to say your
book mattered to me, not into my
life. So I'm very, very
delighted to hear that and glad
that it was a useful touch point
and sort of guidepost when you
were trying to sort out how you
needed to move on from your
business.
Arvid Kahl: It was surprised at
that point that your work was, I
guess, the only book I could
find on this whole issue. I
mean, good positioning, I guess
for you, right? You get all the
sales, but in a way, it was
surprising. And it it still
feels surprising to me how few
works there are in the field,
intersecting the lives of
founders with the lives of
regular people, right, like
having regular people problems,
that that seems to be such a
rare thing to find. And I'm glad
you you took the time and effort
and actually codified it into a
book because I think I've been
recommending this for every
single founder that has asked me
about dealing with mental health
issues, or just stress and
anxiety in this whole process of
building and mostly exiting a
business, that my experience
kind of with this book has
helped me recommend it to other
people. And, yes, I think
there's, I don't want you to
have more competitors in your
field, obviously. But I think
there should be more helping
people get different
perspectives on the same issue,
right?
Dr. Sherry Walling: Yeah. And,
yeah, I think I do think it's a
conversation that happens,
people don't always call it
mental health, sometimes they
call it mindset, sometimes they
call it you know, they kind of
package it under other things.
There aren't a lot of formally
trained mental health
professionals at this space,
which I think is a problem.
There's a lot of founders that
have ideas about it, which is
super, super valid. But I do
think that the professional
training is pretty helpful in
some of these conversations. So
and I think my next book is
going to be about exiting your
business. So perfect, maybe a
little late for your first
round. But
Arvid Kahl: honestly, it's, I
would rather have you write it
now than never write it. You
know, like, my whole mission
ever since I sold the business
was to kind of pay it forward.
So I feel whatever didn't exist
when I was dead. That's why I
wrote my first book, because I
would have liked to read it when
I needed it. And it's kind of
the the approach that I have to
media now. And let's talk about
the book that you just released,
maybe because while I haven't
read it, what I've seen, in your
very touching, really touching
marketing materials around it
has been something that I can
relate to, even though I haven't
read the book, and maybe I will,
I will give you the opportunity
to explain first what the book
is about. And then I will kind
of integrate my actual story
into this.
Dr. Sherry Walling: Yeah. So the
book is called touching two
worlds. And it is part memoir
and then part analysis as a
psychologist into the world of
grief. So the book was kind of
an accidental book, in that it
was written, I lost my dad to
esophageal cancer and my brother
to suicide within six months of
each other. That was in 2018,
2019. And so a big part of my
just personal process around
working through those
experiences was to write about
them, and was to begin talking
to people about grief. And I
think what's so interesting with
those of us who are founders are
high performing professionals
are, you know, we're the people
who are on the go the movers and
the shakers of the world, we
often don't give ourselves much
space for grief. You know, it
feels like I'm busy creating a
world I'm not going to mourn the
things that aren't around
anymore. And I really found that
to be a problem, especially in
entrepreneurs and in founders,
as they have, in many cases,
these really unprocessed losses
that shape them in ways that are
unexpected, but yet quite
powerful. So writing about it is
my attempt to work through it
myself and to sort of offer
offer some notes and guidance to
people who are coming after me
who've had similar losses.
Arvid Kahl: It's and that is why
I intersect with that story
because I think on Process loss
is something that I have
struggled with without knowing
for decades. At this point, I
lost my mother when I was 18, to
suicide as well. And that was a
for an 18 year old and an
processable moment, I feel I
remember that it was just a fact
I dealt with. And I then very
slowly, like a background
process, the height, everything
else I was doing, dealt with it
for the next decade. And it was
around 28, when I started to
actually become a programmer
before that, I was just like
hanging around University in
Germany, because it's paid for
by the Government. So might just
as well, I had a great time I
learned stuff, and I was coding
on the site. And but I really
only became a professional
software engineer 10 years after
that, and it took me that long,
I recognize that now being yet
another 10 years older, that
that was the time that because I
had no help, I had to deal with
it, and chunks, I had to just
deal with all the emotional
baggage of how it affected other
people around me how it affected
my life and my studies. And, you
know, essentially what was still
somewhat of a child growing into
an adult. All of this had to be
done kind of by figuring stuff
out. And I had really no
guidance there and no help. And
that impacted how long it took
me to even be able to
effectively work as a beat as a
human being right, it took me a
decade, which is like if I
hadn't had the support of the
country I lived in and the
people around me, that would
have been very troublesome for
me. So I definitely understand
not dealing with stuff for a
long time. And it's a problem,
right? It's a problem that
affected me for again, a decade,
and it shouldn't have. So I'm
very grateful that you reflect
on this in in public with what
the book is. And I love the idea
that this book is also memoir
slash self reflection method for
you. I think writing is such a
powerful tool to come to, to
your own thoughts and understand
your own thinking. That is that
is one way that I I feel very
strongly for the topic. And I'm
grateful that you wrote about
it. And the other one is now
entrepreneurship related. And
that is something that I might
want to touch on. Because the
idea of grief, to me was always,
from my own experience, a very
person related thing, right? You
grieve a person, and you grieve
the loss of a person. But when
we sold the business, and I'm
trying to be very careful here,
the business is not a person,
right? The business is a thing.
It's an entity you create, and
you set up and it runs and
you're operated. It's almost
more of a machine. But we felt a
very strong sense of grief when
we handed over the keys to the
business. Something we did never
expect. Even though my my
partner and I Danielle and I we
were life partners and business
partners at the same time. We
joked about it being our baby,
right? It's it wasn't obviously
because it doesn't love you back
babies do. But the business was
something that we gave over and
felt this incredibly intense and
mind altering state of grief.
And I think I would have liked
to be prepared for this. No,
that's why I'm
Dr. Sherry Walling: writing my
next book about exits. Because
your experience is not unusual.
And just to sort of clarify from
even, you know, the professional
psychologists perspective, grief
is the emotional reaction to
loss and loss has many forms. So
we think about it maybe most
often in reaction to the loss of
life. But I mean, I think the
the pandemic was so interesting,
because it created so much grief
around our loss of plans, our
loss of mobility, our loss of
travel, you know, these things
that are not human, but yet were
very significant things to lose,
and the loss of a business. You
know, you say your business is
not your baby, and I get it,
it's not. But there's a there's
a really interesting study that
looks at fMRI of entrepreneurs
brains when they're thinking
about their businesses. And the
activation in the brain is very,
very similar to the brain
activity that is in play when a
parent is thinking about their
child. So there is a deep level
of attachment and identification
with your business that is
undeniably this form of bonding.
And so to lose that attachment
to lose that connection, whether
it's by a sale or by a financial
crisis, implosion that results
in the closing of the business.
Grief is a really important part
of that process. And I think
people forget about that,
especially with an exit you know
that it's supposed to be the
happy story. It's supposed to be
your cry Passing the finish
line, it's everything you've
been working for, and people
expect that it's going to be,
you know, you're the envio. But
in reality, it's very
emotionally complicated. I think
maybe a fair comparison is sort
of what it feels like for
parents who are sending children
off to college, or out of when
they're launching their kids.
It's like everything you've been
working for, and everything that
you, you know, are ready for.
But then when you're walking by
their empty bedroom, it's
there's a desperate amount of
grief, it's very painful.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, it's something
that I'm not a parent, so I did
not expect it in the slightest.
Like, I've never, never
experienced anything like it. If
I felt like my, my source of
passion was drained away from
me, I get that that was the
perception that I had, I was
doing this, not because it made
us money. But that was great.
But that was not the reason we
built the business. We wanted to
help these people. And in our
case, it was online English
teachers. And these people still
existed after we sold the
business. And I still wanted to
help them because that was what
I found so much joy and passion
and purpose, mostly purpose in
as well. And with giving away
the business, the purpose of
what my day was about, was not
something that I had any kind of
connection anymore. I was so
connected with the business that
it was kind of I was tethered to
it, that rupturing the tether
that had backlash. It was there
was a kind of tension
Unknown: artery. Yeah, exactly.
Arvid Kahl: And sometimes I
think that entrepreneurship is
all about balancing two
extremes. And this is one of
those examples to me, you have
the extreme connection that you
have with your business. And
then something that that I have
experienced myself, and that I
see so many other founders
experience, you have a lack of
connection with the people
around you that don't understand
what you're doing. That to me,
is a big, big entrepreneurial
problem as well. And I want to
talk to you about it, because
there's the story that a fellow
founder Dagoba Renouf, he tells
this, I think it's in his
Twitter bio as well, that his
father in law did not want him
to start the business with his
wife, right? The story is that
it didn't understand or condone
that the couple, the newly
married couple would start a
bootstrap business together, he
was not a fan of this. And that
must be super stressful. If the
people you need to support you
the most are disconnected from
you, because they just do not,
they don't support you, they
don't understand you. And at the
same time, you're building this
very intimate connection with
this inanimate being that is
your business, right? It kind of
pulls you to both sides, you
want to connect here, but
there's no response. And you you
do connect here, there's also no
response. Entrepreneurship is
hard, right? It's just such a
such a struggle. What do you
think about this? What do you
think about like family support,
when it doesn't exist? When
people don't understand what
you're doing? How can you deal
with this as a founder,
Dr. Sherry Walling: you don't
think it's the, it's the lot in
life for many creatives and
money. You know, I had dinner
with somebody last night, who's
a professional circus artist,
and she was like, Yeah, my
family cut me off. When I
decided to be a circus artist,
they were like, if you're gonna
do that, you're doing it by
yourself. And anytime that
someone is taking big risks that
feel scary and difficult to
understand, for those who love
them, there's a level of
distancing that happens, and it
happens fairly commonly. And
it's, in some ways your families
attempt to protect themselves
from the downside from your
failure, which is not pleasant
right into it. It's sort of
abandoning you and the risk. But
um, I think it's important. It's
tricky. And entrepreneurship,
because again, it is the center
of your world, and it's the
center of your life. But there's
also an argument to be made for
the fact that it can be kind of
a job. And you can have
relationships with people who
don't get it, they don't
understand. I mean, there were
times in Rob's professional life
when I really didn't quite
understand what he did. Like,
I'm not technical. I was just
like, I don't know what your
what are you doing all day? Are
you typing zeros and ones like
what is what is? So I'm at but
yet I loved him no matter what,
like I loved him, despite not
really being able to understand
similarly in my life as a
clinical psychologist, you know,
early on, I worked with post
traumatic stress disorder and
recently returned veterans and
he was like, that's a whole
other world. Like, I'd never I
couldn't think about how I would
do that. You know, it was just
the separateness was tolerable.
And so I think it's important
for entrepreneurs to recognize
you need a posse of people that
do get it you need that
mastermind you need that
community you need some people
that you can really talk shop
with. But you are not so special
in your life as a business
owner, that it's not also
important for you to have
meaningful and deep connections
with people who aren't
entrepreneurs, and just don't
care what you do during the day.
So those are also really
important relationships. And I
think sometimes entrepreneurs
sacrifice those relationships,
because they are so attached to
their business, that it's so
painful that they aren't
understood as an entrepreneur,
and it shouldn't be it's just a
part of you.
Arvid Kahl: Balance, right, you
need to balance the, the the
people who are on your level.
And I mean, there's not as a,
you know, ranking system, but
who aren't you frequency maybe
who vibe with what you do. And
you still need to have the
external, different the other
another group of people who are
different from you. So you can
kind of see, Am I overreacting?
Am I spending too much time with
this. And I think like lots of
founders, particularly
solopreneurs have this problem,
where they focus so much on the
business and they see the
opportunity, they see the
potential, right, they see oh,
wow, if I keep growing this,
this kind of harkens back to the
whole grain set thing from
earlier, if I spend more time
doing marketing, reach out to
more people get this going, then
this will be the wealth
generating thing that I want it
to be, and then I can finally
retire and buy a house for my
parents, right? They have this
dream that involves other
people, but the process does
not. And I think that's what
that's such a dangerous thing to
to consider. But it's also
apparently something that many
people assume to be the right
way, and that they don't need
help they have trouble asking
for help. Is do you see this in
entrepreneurs? Is this a founder
thing that they are taught that
they can do and should do
everything by themselves and
don't ask for help. And that
kind of transforms into the self
inflicted loneliness.
Dr. Sherry Walling: I mean, most
of us have a family story that
necessitates that, I mean, you
with the loss of your mom, are
really used to doing things
yourself and figuring out how to
do it by yourself. I mean, I
grew up with parents that had
really significant physical
medical problems, my mom was
disabled in a wheelchair. And so
that was part of my story to
just I needed to figure things
out myself, if I needed to get
something I need to get up and
go get it like there's nobody
going to do it for you. And a
lot of entrepreneurs have
stories like that, it's sort of
what qualifies us to believe I
can do that. So it's a it's a
strength, in a lot of ways. And
often, it's a way that we've
made sense of difficult
experiences in our lives. But of
course, the downside is the
isolation. And we believe that
just because, you know, someone
else isn't in the nitty gritty
of our business and isn't
pushing the business forward the
way that we are, we sort of
believe that they can't
understand or that they can't
care about us. And that's the
that's the isolationist mistake
that we make.
Arvid Kahl: How do we pull
ourselves out of this? Like, how
do we open up our lives? So we
can have these people in it
without risking not focusing on
up on on our business? Like,
where? Where do we balanced us?
Dr. Sherry Walling: You know,
one of the things that I think
is really, really helpful is to
have a hobby, where you have a
coach. So if you follow me on
social media at all, you know
that I have a funny hobby, which
is, I'm a circus artist. And I
came into that late in life, I
was 40 when I started. But it's
been a really, really important
part of life. For many of these
reasons. I regularly train with
other people, I regularly train
with a coach. So I get practice
being helped, being taught
listening, following directions,
going when somebody tells me to
go. And then I hang out with
this whole community of people
who does not care what my
monthly revenue is, or what my
churn was, or you know, they
just don't care. They just care
if I show up and do my stretches
and come on time and like, do
the thing. So having a hobby is
something that I think is a
really lovely offset to the
stresses of entrepreneurship,
especially if it gets you in
your body and sort of out of
your desk chair not looking at
your laptop, it just varies the
way that you're using your time
and your energy that can be
super, super valuable to our
neurological health. And then
we're also mixing up the
relationship dynamics. Like it's
really good for me to not be the
boss sometimes. You know, I'm
the boss of my kids, sort of.
I'm the boss of my team. I'm the
boss of my business. Yes. And so
to go somewhere and just be a
student, and be a learner is
really, it's really good.
Arvid Kahl: How you bring you
bring to mind something that I
just read. This week in Wired
magazine, I have a print
subscription to Wired Magazine.
That's how old I am. I read
things in print. And then there
was a writing letter to Wired
magazine was somebody asked the
column, this advice columnist.
I'm not ready to pay for
therapy. But I see these mental
health apps, these mindfulness
apps all the time, right? Is
this useful? That was the
question. And the answer was,
right, mental health apps. Yeah,
they're not a replacement for
therapy, definitely not. And
what they actually are, are like
a digitized version of self help
books or self the self help
approach. That was what it said.
And it had it ended with the
phrase, I don't want to talk
about the whole art whole
article, I'm gonna put it in the
show notes, because I think it's
on the web as well. But what it
ended with was, Hey, you are
when you use these apps, you try
to control your breathing, and
you track your pulse, and you
start this kind of biohacking,
try to interpret every single
data point from your body, you
don't want to get on the couch,
you need to get off the couch,
you need to actually hang out
with other people. Because if
you hang out with other people,
if you do collective sports, or
you engage in conversations with
other people, then you're not
focused on breathing anymore,
because your body is capable of
breathing all by itself, that
was kind of the answer to this
was stop focusing so much on
optimizing yourself, right and
self help self self care is
important. But it's not the
solution to all of your
problems, the underlying problem
might just as well that you
don't have enough exposure to
other people to put put you back
into the social context that you
live in. And I love this idea,
like do stuff with people and
your body will keep breathing,
just trust it to keep breathing.
That's what it reminded me of,
because you said you're the boss
of your family, your business,
you're also the boss of
yourself, right of your own
physical being. And if you start
micromanaging your physical
process of breathing of, you
know, when do I do this? When do
I do that? I don't think that's
necessarily a good way to deal
with with problems that you may
be having
Dr. Sherry Walling: was sort of
dissecting us into too many
different parts, I actually
think breathwork is very
helpful, and I practice it, I
have an app that I really like.
I think meditation is helpful
yoga is helpful, like these
practices do teach us the
capacity to regulate our bodies,
which many of us have sort of
lost those skills, but they
aren't the end result, like I do
breath work, so that I can
perform well on a flying
trapeze. You know, it's it gets
me where I'd like to go in my
life where I do meditation so
that I can prepare to give a
talk in front of hundreds of
people, and feel grounded and
connected to myself. So those
tools are tools and having a
bunch of them is great, but
don't glorify them as the
outcome or as the end all be all
of self care. I like a hobby
because it's about joy and play,
and lightheartedness and
laughter and connection. And
those are really good, juicy
parts of life that don't need to
be hacked or optimized, but they
do need time to take place.
Arvid Kahl: Does that is a
really nice and very nuanced
position on this. Because I also
I have found through Danielle,
thankfully, that meditation and
journaling and mindfulness and
breathing work is actually
helpful to me, I consider these
things in the past to be purely
esoteric, that to me was an
adult that was meant as an
insult at that point, right. And
now I consider them surprisingly
useful, which is something I've
tried it out I actually, again,
MicroConf story, the day that
Danielle and I were giving the
talk in Dubrovnik in Croatia
back in 2019. I was very
excited. First time I would ever
stand on stage in front of my
fellow founders, many of which,
at that conference I had have
been admiring for years, and
sharing a story that I with my
imposter syndrome at the time.
And it never really went away
thought I was just lucky to even
be in this place at this time
having done all these things,
standing on the shoulders of
giants really. And I was sitting
there in the morning of that day
in our little hotel room looking
at the Adriatic Sea, beautiful
place. And I was I was feeling
my anxiety. And what I did was I
just journaled for half an hour
I did a stream of consciousness
journaling, which I think is
called Morning pages by some
other people. Well, you just
Yep, exactly. And it was the
morning so it was adequately
described as morning pages, but
just me stream of consciousness
whatever was on my mind, I put
it on paper, and then I just
kind of threw it away. I never
looked at it again. It was not
meant to be read it was meant to
be written. So So I could take
those thoughts out of my mind,
give my mind the, the
understanding that it was
noticed somewhere. And now you
don't have to keep running
through the ideas. And in real
time, you could just put it in
the background and worked super
well. For me, it was such a
surprising thing. And I've been
doing it before that too. So I
knew it was going to work, which
is why I did it, that Danielle
introduced me to these concepts
while I was dealing with the
whole business side, right, the
burnout in feedback panda before
we sold it. And it really helped
me ground myself. And I never
thought before I met Danielle,
and with her had the
opportunities of a lifetime
building and selling your
business, which is great, she's
awesome. I never thought that I
would be the person that could
employ these techniques. So now
that we are talking about it,
how can technical people who
don't believe in this and
engineering backgrounds
solopreneurs approach these soft
topics like meditation and
mindfulness?
Dr. Sherry Walling: I'm sorry, I
just love the like soft topic
quotation, because we have very
robust research from very
mainstream places like Harvard
Medical School, to really
understand what's happening in
our bodies, when we engage,
meditation, breathwork, or
journaling, let's just use those
as three. They're widely
accessible, they're available,
and they both have very
significant scientific support.
One of the things that I think
has happened to us as modern
humans is that we've really
separated our minds from our
bodies, and especially as
technical workers, we, we'd love
a big juicy mind. Like we like
being able to solve problems and
code and very nuanced ways to
stay focused for long periods of
time. But we've forgotten that
everything that happens in that
organ, is part of a larger body
system. And we do much better
when we can integrate our
physiological well being into
our neurological well being,
we're doing it all the time,
it's not a choice, it's how our
brain works. But things like
meditation, journaling breath
work, are very, very helpful to
keeping our physiological system
regulated, so that it can
optimize the functioning of our
brains. And so I would, anybody
who like doesn't believe in this
science, like, just do it, just
do a little lit review on a
medical journal, or like Google
it. And, you know, I think it's
fairly undebatable at this
point. And the good thing is
that these tools are very,
they're really accessible. Like,
you can do a five minute
breathwork practice and sort of
reset your body for a while, or
you can do a little meditation
app. And it's not a replacement
for exercise. It's not a
replacement for therapy. It's
not a replacement for
friendship, but it is a strategy
to help nourish your brain and
calm your body down when you
need to perform at a high level.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, and that's why
I kind of put it in quotes too,
because it is obviously working.
Right. And it's obviously also
like, scientifically, not just
described, but proven and
integrated. I mean, if calm, the
app has such a wide range. And
honestly, if it has so much
success as a business, it must
be doing something right. Right.
Like even for, for somebody who
only wants to think in technical
terms, this is a very logical
conclusion that you have to come
to. And I'm kind of I'm talking
from a current perspective to
the person that I used to be
when I didn't believe in it. So
that's kind of where my phrasing
is coming from. But I still feel
a lot of people have trouble
with the way it is presented.
You know, like the way that
solutions to mental health
problems are presented for many
people are, I don't really know,
the let me think about this. How
would I phrase this in a very
wishy washy kind of way? Is that
a phrase that translates from
German? Because, you know, like,
people want like very discreet
methods. People want the quick
hack, that is the right people
want.
Dr. Sherry Walling: That's kind
of where I started in our
conversation, right? Like, why
isn't why aren't more people
talking about this? And I'll
tell you, because the honest to
God, truth is that there's not a
lot of like, click Beatty,
things that you can say that are
going to make a big impact.
Because I can tell you and I can
show you research studies that
say if you meditate for 20
minutes a day, you're going to
improve your focus and
creativity and overall brain
health. But there's a whole lot
of complexity behind how you
create space for something like
that. What gets in the way of
you sort of disciplining
yourself to do that, do you
value wit, do you even really
care if your brain is I mean,
that's where we get pretty
complicated. So the problem
isn't so much whether or not
these tools work, the problem is
our human complexity around
implementing them effectively.
Arvid Kahl: Certain educational
problem too, like you think this
should be way more front and
center in the way we teach
people to be people.
Dr. Sherry Walling: Yeah. Again,
I think we've segmented the
brain and the body, or the mind
and the body. And that's, that's
a kickback from Decart. Like,
these are long held beliefs that
are that are fundamentally
incorrect.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, to me, it
reminds me of this division that
we have between knowledge work,
and non knowledge work. Like as
if the person doing the
knowledge work wouldn't have a
human body that is acting
physically, it's often confuses
me to think like, just because
I'm not moving stuff around. I'm
still physically, like burning
energy to fuel the brain that
controls these things.
Dr. Sherry Walling: We got lots
of work to do with our
conversations around mental
health. But I'm glad we're
having this one.
Arvid Kahl: I am very glad we
were having this one too. And I
think I just wish it was easier
to talk about it in our
communities, I feel a lot of
people have this kind of notion
that if they share anything that
is potentially showing that they
are not at peak physical and
mental health, they're
vulnerable. And they're not
worthy of being surrounded by
all these other high performers.
I think that's such a such a bad
situation to start with. I
Dr. Sherry Walling: just think
that's increasingly not true.
Like we've had people like Gary
Vander Chuck talking about
depression, you know, within our
own technical people like Steli
Efti, in his podcast about inner
work, like, being quite open
about things that he's learning
and trying about his own inner
world. Most MicroConf, for
example, have some element of
mental health or mindset
present, if I'm not doing it,
somebody else's. But
Arvid Kahl: maybe the next one.
I know somebody who might be
there talking about these
topics. Yeah, it's it's, it's,
it's, I'm glad that this
happens. Because with every
conversation that we have around
the topic, we show other people
that it's Okay to have a
conversation about this topic.
Yeah. Right. That's, that's
just, which is why I'm, let me
bring this to a close, which is
why I'm so happy that you're
here today, and had this
conversation with me right now.
Because I hope that a lot of
people who are listening to this
will not just take something out
of it, but also encourage other
people around them who they see
struggling or not struggling
doesn't matter, you often don't
see people struggle, right? Even
though they do to, to listen to
it and find encouragement to
talk about these things
themselves. And to learn from
you again, like I'm, I'm not
going to push anything here, but
people should really read your
work. Because it was it was
quite really, yeah, they should.
It was quite helpful.
Dr. Sherry Walling: Yeah, a
couple of books. I have a
podcast, I just did a TEDx talk.
Arvid Kahl: Where can people
find you? Maybe let's let's
codify it like this? Where do
you want people to find you?
Dr. Sherry Walling: My
professional work is mostly on
Zen founder.com, which is also
the name of my podcast. And you
can see links and descriptions
of the books that I've written,
or the retreats or events that
I'm hosting. And then you can
also follow me on social media.
If you're curious about how a
psychologist also was a circus
artist, I do a lot of that on on
Instagram, and Twitter and
LinkedIn. So
Arvid Kahl: I highly recommend
that follow because it might
like if you're listening to
this, and you think, yeah, I
think I need to deal with a
couple of issues that I haven't
thought about much, following
Sherry's a very good idea. And
it will be it will make your
journey easier, and you'll come
out as a better person with a
better understanding of
yourself. So thank you so much
for being on today and talking
to me about all these
complicated and often heavy
things. It was a real eye
opening conversation. Thank you
so much.
Dr. Sherry Walling: Yeah, thank
you!
Arvid Kahl: And that's it for
today. Thank you for listening
to The Bootstrapped Founder. You
can find me on Twitter
@arvidkahl. You'll find my books
and my Twitter course there as
well. If you want to support me
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Any of this will truly help to
show. So thank you so much for
listening and have a wonderful
day. Bye bye