Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A show about cameras, creativity, and the weird shit your brains do while you're trying to make something.
Together, we're exploring photography for all levels — asking the silly questions, sharing the expert knowledge, and digging into what it actually takes to grow as a human being and as an artist.
Ep 01 The Trap of Getting It Right
===
Amy (she/her): [00:00:00] The reason why I feel really strongly about getting away from talking about is this right or wrong, is that has such a power to shut down a conversation
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): it doesn't lead to anything productive.
Casey (she/her): Welcome, everybody. Today we're talking about getting it right, like. So I am a beginner photographer and we wanted to start with one of these kind of more [00:01:00] creativity conversations As adults, starting new things is really hard and scary, so I just started playing with my DSLR. I dunno, it's been like six months that I've been playing with a camera.
I just got a new camera and I am cons, constantly catching myself in this trap of, am I doing it right? Do I have the right settings? Do I have the right gears? Is that the right way to crop a picture? Is that the right, post-processing? Right, right, right, right, right. And I don't wanna get it wrong because I'm a responsible grownup who should know how to do things right. And being I think, especially as adults, so fucking hard and scary. And like I have caught myself, so I. Just day I was taking some pictures of vultures in my yard and some of the pictures came out amazing. I did some edits and I wanted to send 'em over to Amy 'cause she's my friend and I wanna show her my awesome pictures and in my brain. Amy is like not a judgmental [00:02:00] person, but she is an expert and I'm like, oh my God, what if she doesn't like it? What if we can't be friends? 'cause this isn't a good enough photo. Did I crop this right? Like did I, did I edit this right? Does this bird look good? And I get caught in all of these rights that are stopping me from wanting to just enjoy and send this photo to my friend. And I know that I am not the only person who does this. I know there has got to be so many people out there who have. Picked up the camera and instantly wanted to like set it back down because they can't figure out how to do it right. And parts of photography can be incredibly complex if you want to get into the nuance and the details and the technique and the numbers and the exposure.
Trying like it can get really overwhelming really fast. So. We're gonna talk about why none of that really matters and why to not get stuck in the trap of doing it right. Amy, were my pictures good the other day?
Amy (she/her): They were good. And what was best about 'em is how I could tell how giddy you were about [00:03:00] them. Um, because we've talked about. Kind of your growing interest in taking photos and what you're noticing and, you know, wanting to, to do all these new things and fun things. And so the fact that you had vultures in your yard and were able to take a photo of them, um, was, was great.
So that is kind of where it all starts. And the, the piece that is most important, are you happy with, with what you're doing?
Casey (she/her): Yeah,
Amy (she/her): That's, that's in the end, that's all that matters.
Casey (she/her): yeah.
Amy (she/her): So. Um, now that the desire to be right is very natural, and I am a rule follower to the nth degree, so I can totally relate. Um, I probably would've been that same way when I was starting out, except I had nobody to, to really.
You know, talk to and, and go to.
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): so I was just kind of floundering out there by myself and figuring things [00:04:00] out as I went.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): but I still wanted to do things right. Um,
Casey (she/her): And a
Amy (she/her): so
Casey (she/her): I would imagine of like you started photography 25 years
Amy (she/her): 25. Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): like. YouTube, the internet, social media, this like instant access to professionals and like this heightened awareness of comparison, like good and bad. You didn't have that point of
Amy (she/her): No.
Casey (she/her): or information that can kind of drown somebody who's starting now too, but which is like a, like I said, a good, a good and a bad thing.
Amy (she/her): Yeah, yeah. No, I had, um, clean Run Magazine, a paper copy of Clean Run Magazine, and that was the Agility magazine that was, and I, they're still out. I don't know if they still print, paper, episode or issues, but they're still around. And I, this is gonna sound, um, I would, I subscribed, um, and got it for the photos, um, which,
Casey (she/her): [00:05:00] Absolutely. Always get the
Amy (she/her): yeah,
Casey (she/her): photos.
Amy (she/her): I, I don't run a dog, I don't plan on training a dog for agility, but I wanted to see what agility photos looked like, and that was my only reference. So,
Casey (she/her): yeah.
Amy (she/her): so that, that's what I had to base things on. And I, you know, I didn't know settings. I didn't, I just had to figure that out. The reason why I feel really strongly about getting away from talking about is this right or wrong, is that has such a power to shut down a conversation
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): it doesn't lead to anything productive. Because it's a yes or no question, really. Is this right or wrong? Is it, yes, this is right O. Okay, that doesn't tell me anything.
Is it wrong? Well, okay, now we have to go and talk about how shitty you are. Well, that's no fun. And really there's always redeeming elements of any photo that's taken because there was a reason why it was taken.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): so if we can talk about why did you wanna take this photo? What do you think is interesting in here?
Then that's the conversation I want to [00:06:00] have.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): We can talk about, um, you know, if a photo didn't come out the way you want it to, it's not that you did anything wrong, it's that there are ways to achieve the outcome you want that are better than others, but we have to know what it was you were trying to achieve
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Yeah. Is that still maintaining the curiosity in the
Amy (she/her): Yep.
Casey (she/her): of learning? So like. I look at these vulture pictures, I, I'm, I don't wanna confess to how many times I've looked at those pictures in the last 12 hours since I took them and edited them. these vulture pictures, I can look at 'em and on one hand I'm so excited and oh my gosh, I took these and I'm really proud of them. And there's another part of me that's curious and open and like, not in a negative way of like, okay, now how do I improve them?
Amy (she/her): What's next?
Casey (she/her): What's next? I'm realizing this one. I don't love the crop of, this one's a little dark. One
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): Quartered the wrong [00:07:00] direction. I'm like, I just, you next time to look at me, look at the camera, look at me and like, like I can do that from a place of not right, wrong, good, bad.
I'm doing that from a place of like, Ooh, here's an object I can learn from. Being curious about what worked, what didn't. Getting into the nuance of like, where am I going with this photo?
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Um, so when I, when I talk with students about their photos and they start asking the question, did I do this right? I often will have to back up and I will. I won't always frame it as, let's back up. I, I usually just throw a question at them and, you know, uh, and, and sometimes I worry that that gets interpreted as criticism.
The fact that I'm asking a question
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): becomes a criticism, and it, for me, it's not my brain needs context.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): I like to tell my students, I, I can't answer hypothetical questions. Like, don't [00:08:00] ask me a question about, well, if I am. Taking a photo of a dog running across a field, what should my settings be? I don't know.
What's the light? What's the context? What lens are you using? What are you, so I need that extra context in order to give you an answer that is actually helpful. That doesn't just, you know, that isn't, oh, there's no right or wrong. Just do what you want. That's, that's not helpful either. So,
Casey (she/her): Right. Because within that,
Amy (she/her): are you laughing?
Casey (she/her): yeah. Well, because, no, because you're right. Because within that context there is like, I don't know how to say this without contradicting. Myself, but like within the context, there can be elements of right or wrong in a way. you and I were talking recently about a great example that had to do with somebody who came to one of your classes, you know, one of your, uh, coaching calls and was asking about a photo of like, is this a good photo? And you did this. Like, I love that you ask questions. A lot of people, I think as grownups who are like [00:09:00] responsible adults, we see questions as judgment. And this goes back to that curiosity thing of like it's context and curiosity. It's not judgment, it's not critique. And that can be hard for people to get comfortable with, like. Amy has asked me questions and I know where she's coming from and it still stresses me out sometimes, but I love this approach because it stops and makes me think through the photo. And so like one of the first questions I've heard you ask a lot is who's the boss? So like,
Amy (she/her): Yep.
Casey (she/her): for folks and like why do you start with who's the boss loss?
Amy (she/her): Um, I like to use that as the kind of the first question, um, because it gets us into the mindset of the photographer. I wanna know in that moment when you were taking the photo, what was it that caught your attention? What is it about this photo? Um, what were you trying to capture? What, what do you think is the most interesting?
When we are as photographers, we can get blinders on in terms of [00:10:00] all of the other things that are going on in the photo, because in the moment all we see our brains really can, you know, get rid of the distractions. For us, all we see is the thing that we think is most interesting.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): or the dog or the, you know, the flower and we literally, our brains just.
Filter out all the rest of it. And so in a photo, it's all there. So there's no filtering in a photo until you come back and edit it later. But as an observer of the photo, I see it all. And if I don't, can't clearly pick out from all of the things going on in that in the frame if I can't figure out what is most important.
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): Then that's where we have a discussion about, it's not right or wrong, it's how successful were you in showing me what you wanted to show me? So that's, that's the, the way I like to frame it.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): and then we can have a conversation about, [00:11:00] well, when I look at this photo, this is what I see. I see this little bit of a bush over here that maybe, you know, pulls my attention away from, from the bird.
Um, I see a. A busy background, um, behind your bird that is, or dog that is making it really hard to pick out the details of the subject.
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): So ~that's, ~that's why I like that idea of who's the boss
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Okay. then that lets you also get more context.
Amy (she/her): I,
Casey (she/her): people are gonna get really tired of us over the years talking about like context and nuance because that's what so much of
Amy (she/her): and yeah.
Casey (she/her): But like, the part that I feel like a lot of conversations around, especially like creativity, not just photography, but like we skip this element of context.
And so like another part of context. So who's the boss? Okay. Like it's. The dog. So I, there's a, a picture you and I talked about of a dog that's looking away from the camera that's like kind of,
Amy (she/her): [00:12:00] Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): but like the dog's back is to the camera, basically. ~If, ~if I'm understanding how you describe it. Yeah. And so like, who's the boss?
Well, it's the dog. But then the next layer of context is like, great, who's audience? Because that also changes Right, wrong, good, bad. A
Amy (she/her): Successful talk about it as as successful rather than
Casey (she/her): a
Amy (she/her): because it photography is communication. And if you haven't successfully communicated to me what you think is important in the photo, we can talk about how to make it more successful. It doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it, you know, it, it means you need to articulate your words better, uh, but in a photography sense.
So ~that's, ~that's what it is. This.
Casey (she/her): No, I like that. Successful is a really good way to put it. ~And, ~and figuring out how to articulate and the different conversations. That's a great way to way put it, of like articulating what you wanna say, but in the photo, like, what are your words?[00:13:00]
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): I tell my mother a story versus the way I would
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): my brother, my best friend, uh, the same story. different. And so the
Amy (she/her): Or. Yeah. Or the way that you would tell a story from a stage versus the way you would tell a story if you were sitting in a coffee shop with a group of friends.
Casey (she/her): totally. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so
Amy (she/her): So,
Casey (she/her): are you telling this story to
Amy (she/her): yeah,
Casey (she/her): then becomes really important.
Amy (she/her): right. The audience ~is, ~is really important to consider. Um, and so the way that plays out, you know, who are you trying to make happy?
Are you trying to, if you're just trying to make yourself happy, then. There's nothing I can tell you. ~And if, ~and if you were successful in doing that, if you are happy with the photo, then you don't need my opinion. You don't need me to say anything. If you're happy with it, then you're happy with it.
That's fantastic. Um, and so then ~there, so ~there's that level, there's the teacher or mentor, [00:14:00] um, level where, you know, if you're coming to me to get feedback on, um, how, you know, if that's your, ~the, ~the. The only, if you're just trying to make me happy. Well, a don't because.
Casey (she/her): Right,
Amy (she/her): I mean, you'll know when I'm happy, but that's, I, I don't think I'm a good audience.
I don't think that you should be taking photos to make your teacher happy. How about that?
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): or coach? Um, that is not what I want. I don't want you to, to make a photo for, for me.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): but that could be what you're. Now if you're just trying to demonstrate a skill, like I know how to take photos with different depths of field.
You know, if we're just practicing a skill that then yes, I'm the, your audience and were you able to do that or not? That's, you know, that's kind of the education layer of things. Um, if you wanna enter it in a photo challenge that is gonna be judged in some way, um, then you have the context of the rules of the challenge.
Um, who the, who the [00:15:00] judge or judges are. Um, is there a particular style to this, um, to this contest? Is there a theme? Is there a brief that you need to meet? Um, and so that becomes a really different conversation because there may be things that you need to do in that photo that meet the brief or meet the, the rules
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): you wouldn't necessarily naturally do or do for a photo that you would, you know, you're just trying to make yourself happy.
And then if you get to the level of, of like proper photo contests, then that's a whole nother layer as well. Um. Those tend to be a little more open-ended in terms of subject and style and all of that. There's categories and there's, there's definitely rules to follow, um, you know, in the way that you can edit things or not.
Um, but all of that context plays into how do I, ~how do, ~what am I doing with this photo? And is it successful? Does it meet the brief? Does it meet the challenge category or, [00:16:00] um, you know. Are, is this what the judges are gonna be looking for?
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): a lot of contests, they're, because they're dealing with so many images, they're looking for unique, they're looking for perfection.
~I, ~I judged, um, a contest last year, and I'm gonna be doing it again this year for pet photographers. There's a lot of really solid photos that come through there, but the criteria ~that they're, ~that is being used to judge them is different than the criteria you would use for a client.
So there's another audience would be clients.
Casey (she/her): right.
Amy (she/her): you are a professional photographer, you're taking photos for people. Then your criteria, ~your, ~the judge of whether or not something successful comes from them.
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): let's co, let's talk now about that photo where the dog is facing away from the camera. So that's gonna be, it needs to make the photographer happy.
Sure. And, and she was,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): ~the, ~the photographer ~that, ~that did the photo. Um, is it a good competition photo, like a broad based, [00:17:00] you know, photography composition, uh, competition? ~It, ~it may not be because there's no engagement between the subject. And the person looking at the photo, the dog is looking away. We can't see their face very well.
Um, does that make it a bad photo? Did she do it wrong? Absolutely not.
Casey (she/her): right.
Amy (she/her): know what that photo's really good for is the client,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): because I, I can imagine if that was my dog, I can imagine me sitting there drinking my coffee with, you know, sitting next to my dog watching the sunrise or sunset.
Casey (she/her): Yeah,
Amy (she/her): you know, I can put myself in that place in a way that I can't if I'm a judge.
Casey (she/her): yeah.
Amy (she/her): and just looking for more the technical and even emotional because it's, if it's not my dog, I don't connect with it emotionally in the same way that if it is my dog.
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): Um, in fact, speaking of my dog, I have a photo that I took of Spy My Great Dane when he was a puppy and he was looking away from the camera, [00:18:00] but he has these beautiful ears, so he's a great Dane, but he has natural ears.
No, we didn't crop them and they, it was just this. There is something about his ears that are so to me,
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): engaging and I just wanna, you know, do this to him. Um, and so I have this photo that I took where he is looking away, but it just makes the ears look perfect.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): several years later I went and had photos done of him by a friend of mine who's a professional studio photographer.
And my only request, the only photo I wanted to make sure we captured was him from the back. With those perfect ears. And so it's not a shot at, you know, I, I have it in the album, the, the printed album that she made. Um, I think I have a print, just a standalone print of it. It's, it's not anything anybody else would wanna hang on the wall, but I love it because there's all of that story behind it.
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): so audience matters.[00:19:00]
Casey (she/her): yeah. I, and I, I love the differentiation between like, professional contest and audience are such different because like there are elements as much as we'll talk about, like, and this is a whole nother episode we're already planning on, like learn the rules so you can break 'em.
Or like the rules don't matter is like there are best practices, there are techniques, there are styles, there are things that are sought after. That like in professional competition, professional settings, whatever, like that's going to be a. Successful answer, successful photo versus that thing of like, what does the audience want?
What does the client want? Like it's, it's funny, like, I know we usually talk about animals, but like my mom, her favorite photos of me, and when you're describing SP's ears,
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): um, prosopagnosia, she can't see faces, so she
Amy (she/her): Oh, okay.
Casey (she/her): recognize me in a photo. She can't pick me out of a lineup. We realized her two favorite photos of me are photos [00:20:00] where my face is covered. Um, one was when I
Amy (she/her): Oh.
Casey (she/her): and I'm in uniform and the other is I'm on the beach in Aruba at Sunset. So I'm silhouetted and she's like, I know it's you 'cause of how you stand. She's
Amy (she/her): Wow.
Casey (she/her): photos because they're So, you like my energy oozes through how I'm standing it's so funny 'cause they're like. Quote unquote worst photos of me. 'cause you cannot tell that it's me,
Amy (she/her): Right, right.
Casey (she/her): you can't see my face. But it's that same thing of
Amy (she/her): But ~she can, ~she can tell it's you. Yeah.
Casey (she/her): they're both photos that have always been up in our house in all the years since they've been taken. 'cause they're like her favorites of me. And so yeah, that thing of like, context of the audience is so damn important. And I feel like. Again, relatively new to the photography space, but I feel like I never hear that part of the conversation. We're always talking about competition. We're always talking about composition. We're always talking about like best practices, but like best practices for who?
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her): Studio versus wildlife.
I mean even that [00:21:00] like that changes what best practices are and like what kind of quality you're gonna get a dog through an agility course versus a dog standing in a studio for a portrait session. Different goals, different best practices.
Amy (she/her): Yep.
The other, the other piece of this, when you talk about how successful is something, there's a a really big psychological piece to this of that when we're, especially when you're editing photos. But, um, and again, this is gonna be a future episode where we talk about how to edit photos and, and
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): do you make those decisions.
Um, but even this is, you know, ~you, ~you need to understand the psychology behind how we look at a photo in order to. Be able to make those decisions about how you edit the photo. So, um, that's another thing that ~I don't, ~I don't think it's talked about enough, which is why we're gonna talk about it.
Casey (she/her): Yeah, you're right. Like without getting too far into that, but like, I didn't even think about that. Like when I took the pictures of these vultures, like several of these ~pho ~photos, like I was just trying to grab the [00:22:00] shot before the birds got upset. 'cause I was like sneaking up on 'em and I'm like, at any minute they were way bolder than I thought.
They let me get closer both to them and the dead raccoon than I thought they were gonna let me get. Uh, that's how they ended up in my yard. There was a raccoon in my yard. Um, but like. As some of these shots, like I'm just trying to grab the shot. Like there's not a lot of thought around composition is like, can I see the vulture's face?
Can I see their wings? Yes, shot taken. But then when I come
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): and I'm looking at cropping, looking at a little bit of like removing some stuff, then there was this whole different thought process of. What am I trying to show off here?
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): the boss? One of the photos I noticed a detail, the, I'm kind of underneath the bird and there's a spider web like
Amy (she/her): Oh,
Casey (she/her): across the branches under him, and I'm like, oh my God.
That's such a cool detail that I. I did not see until I looked at the photo a dozen times. All of a sudden I was like, oh, I kind of love that I caught that, that you can like see the spiderweb like shining in [00:23:00] the sun right underneath this bird. And yeah, is there's, there's so many levels to this and we
Amy (she/her): Hmm.
Casey (she/her): come back to like aperture and like lighting and it's just, that takes all the fun out of it.
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Um, the thought that just occurred to me, talk to me about, 'cause you just talked about the, your thought process when you were shooting versus your thought process when you were editing. Tell me more about what you were thinking about as you were shooting. Like, give me a little more,
Casey (she/her): Oh
Amy (she/her): flesh that out a little more.
Casey (she/her): when I was shooting, I was looking for, like I said, some of it, 'cause the, where I was shooting, there's a lot of trees and so some of it was just, can I see enough of the bird? Um, and so that was kind of first focus. Second was like, this was the, it was really sunny and like we're in the shade and this, depending on where the bird was sitting, I got bright blue sky behind them. And so like, can I get enough? This is where like understanding technique, understanding the tool is important of like, could I get the ISO [00:24:00] situated enough that I could get enough light on the bird without just blowing out the sky behind it. So there like a little bit of that.
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): and then I was just trying to get a variety of like different angles of the birds as they looked away from me. I was trying to catch 'em in flight. None of those photos turned out 'cause. As big as they are, they are hard to find. Once they tuck off off the branch, I'm like swinging the camera around trying to find the bird where to go. Um, you know, and then like, so I was trying to think about like what's, I guess a lot of it boiled down to what has the potential to be interesting I go back to edit it. 'cause like I got some pretty, like there was a younger vulture at one point on the ground, on the carcass and like got some. Good photos in terms of like their very clear picture of the vulture. They're boring. A snot, it's, it's a bird standing in the grass with his bald little head. Like, there's nothing I could do to make those interesting.
And I got a couple shots [00:25:00] that I grabbed for my sake, where like there's a vulture on the ground and like two in the trees to like, 'cause I think it's cool. I had three vultures just like right there.
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): But it's a quote unquote bad picture in terms of anything artistic. It's more just like a point of reference for me that
Amy (she/her): How.
Casey (she/her): look what I did.
Amy (she/her): Yeah. How did the, because you had mentioned that you were worried about them flying away. How did that, uh, impact what you were trying, your thought process that that worry that they were gonna leave
Casey (she/her): um. a little bit of it just was like, I, I mean as long as the raccoon's there, I know they're coming back. I, I, I know enough
Amy (she/her): True.
Casey (she/her): behavior 'cause like I'd actually seen them and then I had to go take a work call. So like, I'd gotten like three pictures and I was like, well that was fun. And I went inside for a work call and afterwards I was like, oh wait, they're vultures.
They're gonna come back. And I went back out and they were still out there. So there was a little bit of like, if I, if I do flush 'em [00:26:00] off, not a big deal. I wanna get as close as I can to see how good of photos I can get. And the flip side of that was like if I do flush 'em out, maybe I can get a flying photo, which would be super cool.
I. Oh, well, I got close enough. So like for me, that was kind of a non-issue. And as I was creeping, there was a couple spots where I had to like, so I used to hunt a lot, um, in Montana. And so I was using some hunting of kind of moving, like behind the tree. So I'd get like a tree between me and the bird and kind of move towards the bird and then like poke out and I'm like, but I was kind of ready to try to shoot
Amy (she/her): ~I am, I'm like having this, ~I have this movie in my head going of this whole thing. This is amazing.
Casey (she/her): And so, so like being aware and like watching their body language. And so like at one point
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): didn't turn out great, but at one point I did start to spook one and he like got big and like opened up his wings like he was getting ready. And so I froze and I'm like, great, I can get the shot of him as he takes off. And because I froze, he settled down, put his wings down. I was like. [00:27:00] I mean, I'm glad I didn't scare you off, but also, dude, I was ready for that one. So yeah, there's like a lot of moving pieces. As I am moving and watching the birds and trying to anticipate when they may or may not spook, and also trying not to like and fall in my backyard, and at one point I did not know where the raccoon was, and so I was also trying not to. Find the raccoon unexpectedly. 'cause I could smell the raccoon. So
Amy (she/her): Oh, oh no.
Casey (she/her): of things happening. As I, I was like just trying to get photos of these birds. And also there was an element, underneath element of it. There was an element of like. If I miss every single one of these shots, fuck it.
At least I tried. Like that was the base of it. Like
Amy (she/her): Okay.
Casey (she/her): all of this is for nothing, an experience of stalking a bird, of trying to set up shots. Um, you and I've talked about this. I have some photos that I took of my dog playing ball and. [00:28:00] They're blurry as hell. They're terrible photos, but I can see the dog well enough to like see his shape and I'm like, oh, that would've been cool if it was clear.
Can I recreate that moment? And so like, even looking at the ones of the birds, that didn't turn out well. Some of the, like in-flight ones, I'm like, oh, that would've been cool if there like, wasn't that tree branch there. So there's still, I'm still learning and curious about the ones that suck.
Amy (she/her): Yeah,
Casey (she/her): a win if
Amy (she/her): ~it is. ~It is,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Rather than, oh, I, this is a, a bad photo. This is this, I didn't do this. Right. Um,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): yeah.
Casey (she/her): ~I, ~I, so far, really, you and I had kind of started talking about like creativity and like, there's kind of no wrong answer and that curiosity element. Which I apply to a lot of my life, like in the work I do with self-trust and like the nervous system, there's kind of no wrong answer. What feels good and if it feels bad, what can you learn from it so that you don't put yourself back in that? And so that's kind of how I look at all the photos. Even if they suck, maybe I can still, ~I can, ~I can [00:29:00] own what objectively a bad photo
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): not beat myself up about it and be curious about how I could ~do ~do it different next time.
Amy (she/her): But that, that's a hard skill. How do you get started doing that? Because not everybody comes into photography with that because you already have that skill.
Casey (she/her): Yes. So
Amy (she/her): So take a step back and ~how do, ~how do you get there?
Casey (she/her): Yeah. I think, hmm. I mean this goes back into like again the work I do.
Amy (she/her): this is.
Casey (she/her): No, ~this is great. ~This is such a great question. 'cause like you said, this is a skill I have and I kind of forget. This is a learned skill of like. For me, it's coming back to like, especially with something like photography, but I, this is the thing that we're going with, like all of my clients is like, but did you die?
Like is if I take a bad photo, but
Amy (she/her): I love that so much. I have a sticker that says that 'cause there, that I bought, that I have ~on, ~on the front [00:30:00] of my laptop that I'm looking at right now.
Casey (she/her): I
Amy (she/her): I love that.
Casey (she/her): But
Amy (she/her): that's what it is. Yeah.
Casey (she/her): so much in our life that we put so much pressure on and like I see it in my clients when they talk about their relationships and their job and learning to set boundaries and like. Setting a boundary with somebody is terrifying the first time. But did you die?
No. Great. Set another boundary and so I kind of like have learned the same and so, yes, do I sometimes still have those thoughts? Did I panic that Amy wasn't gonna be my friend anymore? 'cause my vulture pictures weren't good enough. Absolutely. That ran through my brain as soon as I catch that thought. I can like go back into, it's kind of hard to explain, but like, I go back, like in my brain and in my nervous system, I'm like, but that's not true. Like, she literally loves teaching people. She runs a business that involves teaching people how to do this. She's not gonna, uh, disown me over this. I did not die.
Okay, try again. And so, yeah, it's, it's, but it is a practice and so sometimes you have to start with lower stakes things. [00:31:00] And so. taken a bunch of bad pictures. Like when I was first figuring out my camera, I took a bunch of bad pictures looking at like, um, F Stop. And so like one of it, like I've taken, I'm working through your camera 1 0 1 course, and like one of the things you do is like get three objects and go set 'em up a different set, uh, distances play with the F-stop.
And like I looked at those, I'm like, wow, these are terrible photos. And I learned something about F-Stop. It's. I didn't die. This is safe to have a bad photo. And so I started with very like non, what's the fuck word I'm looking for? Non impactful, non like very tiny steps
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): where
Amy (she/her): Baby steps,
Casey (she/her): baby steps, baby steps.
Amy (she/her): baby steps.
Casey (she/her): now missing a shop on a vulture, which is a much rarer opportunity, I don't feel bad because I've already practiced a bunch on. My miniature cat figurines that I was practicing
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): on[00:32:00]
Amy (she/her): Or, or soup cans or beer bottles or whatever.
Casey (she/her): Practice on the really low stakes. Let
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): the feeling. Talk through the feeling. Remind yourself like that your nervous system is probably lying to you. And if you check in with it, you probably logically know that. And our brain and our body aren't always on the same page.
So sometimes we have to practice getting them to communicate with each other. And then as you move into higher stakes things, nervous system is already more aligned with what your brain's doing. And so when I did get flustered at a couple points, trying to get a shot. It was easier to like catch it and like stop and
Amy (she/her): Yeah,
Casey (she/her): and kind of reset and get back into it.
Amy (she/her): that's a huge skill in in photography because I mean, I still remember the first time I came across a great gray owl. I live in an area where we get them in the winter and. I, my adrenaline was like pouring through my body. I could hardly breathe. I [00:33:00] feel like my eyes rolled back in my head when I put the camera up to my face to try and take a picture of it.
I just, I, there was, and I got pictures of it, but it, it just was this ~overwhelming, ~overwhelming feeling. Um, and so yes, that, that's. I don't know where I'm going with that.
Casey (she/her): and I suspect though, like that's a great example, but like, and like that also sometimes that feeling will continue to happen. So you and I have talked about this in the realm of like nervous system regulation. It's not that you're always going to have a regulated nervous system, it's that you have the tools to reregulate when you get dysregulated.
So like
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her): with a rifle, like shooting. Absolutely. Every single time I am on an animal like that, I'm on a deer that I've got a buck with a nice rack in my sights. I just spent three days hiking across the fucking mountains of Montana. I finally have my shot. I lay down, I line up my shot. I even just telling you about it.
I, the adrenaline is turning on [00:34:00] like. Absolutely the adrenaline is pouring sometimes, but I also can start to do that process of like, okay, close your eyes, take a deep breath, settle.
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): how to like slow my nervous system back down. I know that that adrenaline is not fight or flight. I'm going to die if I fail this shot. And so I can like. Turn it out faster versus getting lost in the frantic. This is where people, I think screw like, make mistakes, is they start getting frantic in that
Amy (she/her): Yes. Yeah.
Casey (she/her): and then they get angry that they're flustered, and then the whole fucking thing falls apart.
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her): being able to catch it and be like, Ooh,
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): I'm feeling some feelings.
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her): Whew.
Amy (she/her): Okay. So how do we bring this back? 'cause we have definitely taken a huge tangent, but this is how we talk. So you, you all will fi figure that out too. This is how our conversations go is,
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): mean, neurodivergent brains just do this. Yes, connect the dots [00:35:00] and we know what the dots are. But let's try and connect the dots for our audience a little bit.
Why, you know. Why does it make sense that we just took that tangent when we're talking about doing it right.
Casey (she/her): Because I mean, really because like. Nobody else is talking about it. I
Amy (she/her): Okay.
Casey (she/her): not in the, I mean, at the end of the day, ~none of the photography spaces I've been talking about that I have been in, I've no ~none of the photography spaces that I have found myself in. Have I seen direct conversations about right or wrong? I've seen conversations about learning curves. I've seen conversations about experimenting. I've seen conversations sometimes about curiosity, but it's always with the context of like, there should be right or wrong, and there's a final destination that like a professional, you'll never a bad shot or that you'll never feel anxiety again or like. That's fucking part of creativity.
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): have bad days, you're gonna have bad shots, you're gonna get anxious, you're gonna get frustrated
Amy (she/her): Yep.
Casey (she/her): you can keep going.
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): And so like, I think that's where it comes back to for me and like the beginner [00:36:00] shooters, is to like people that like all of this is normal.
And it does not mean you're bad. It does not mean you should stop. just means there's new angles to look at it from.
Amy (she/her): Right. Yeah. And for me, I, I just want people to ask themselves better questions. I,
Casey (she/her): if we were to narrow it down, 'cause we have covered a lot of ground, a lot of
Amy (she/her): yes.
Casey (she/her): Are there specific questions somebody could ask to like get themselves more focused?
Amy (she/her): Um, ~the, ~the things that I ask in my coaching group are who's the boss? ~What is the, ~what is the thing, the one thing you want me to see in this photo? Um, and then we can have a conversation about how successful that was. Um, and then I wanna know the context of who your audience is. So what's your criteria that we're using to talk about how successful it's, and then I think ~the, ~the question number three is, but did you die?
Um, ~I, I, ~I think that has to be part of the conversation too.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): ~if you, if you didn't, ~if it isn't successful, but you did [00:37:00] die, ~you're, ~you're fine. Just go to, you know, go do another one.
Casey (she/her): learned?
Amy (she/her): ~that ~that can apply in so many ways.
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): If nothing else, it breaks the tension.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): I mean, that's, the value is, is in that too, so.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. I, I love that. Those are such good questions to keep in mind, both when you're shooting and when you're editing. Who's the boss? Who's
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm. Yep.
Casey (she/her): you die?
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): if you can come back to those three things, then like, awesome. Keep
Amy (she/her): Yeah. ~Yeah.~
Casey (she/her): All right. Any other last parting words of wisdom?
Or do we say
Amy (she/her): Well. I, I, I mean, we can each talk about, you know, if you're, if you're looking for someone to ask those questions and have discussions with, I'm your girl. So, um, you can come to me and I've got a coaching group that ~we can, ~we can work on that. Um, if somebody needs some, a little more broader, newer system, help Casey's your girl.
So,
Casey (she/her): I love that.
Amy (she/her): we've got resources for you. You don't have to do it alone. This is.
Casey (she/her): No.
Amy (she/her): [00:38:00] Community. I have talked for years, or I have thought for years about doing a podcast. And the idea of sitting and talking to myself is not interesting to me, which is probably why I've never done it. And when we came up with this idea of, of doing it together,
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): all in, like no hesitation.
And I,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Casey, it was that way for you too. Like,
Casey (she/her): Yeah,
Amy (she/her): absolutely. Count me sold.
Casey (she/her): yeah. Well, and this is why I like, I have loved your teaching style and like sitting in on your coaching calls, like hype you up for a second is like, it's not just. and you're not telling me to get new gear and like, which that episode's coming. We'll be talking about gear.
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): bonus episode around it. But like that is an important conversation, but it like always is the boss? And even the photo, even the coaching sessions that I've come to of yours where I've not brought a photo and I've just sat and listened in, I've learned something from every single one of them. Watching you walk other people through. This [00:39:00] like thought process
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): I'm like, oh, that's cool. I've already watched a bunch of really boring ass YouTube videos on like and Exposure Triangle and I don't remember a damn thing. 'cause I'm out there just flipping dials until the picture
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): and I push the button. Yeah. So, yeah, no, I love, and that's why we like, we're both so quickly in on this
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): it's not. Just photography. I'm obsessed with the nervous system. It's not just the nervous system. Everything we talk about photography I can probably extrapolate to your entire
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): and I love that. I can also bring it back down to like just this
Amy (she/her): Just,
Casey (she/her): like it's a new
Amy (she/her): yeah.
Casey (she/her): for this hobby.
Amy (she/her): Yeah. No, I love that. ~I, ~I love ~the, ~the way ~our, ~our, um. Special interests really, you know, collide ~and, ~and integrate and all of that stuff. So,
Casey (she/her): Cool.
Amy (she/her): all right. How do we wrap this up?
Casey (she/her): Oh, well. All right, stick around next week. Uh, we'll have weekly episodes. We've got a whole series of great [00:40:00] episodes about the traps that we catch ourselves in as photographers new and experienced. Um, and if you're looking to learn more about photography, check out Amy Johnson, all of her information's in the show notes.
And if you're looking to learn more about your nervous system and trusting yourself, check out me. All the notes are all the info is in the show notes, and we'll see you next week.