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Honest conversations with working mothers about how they really "do it all"
Join us on Substack - https://substack.com/@leaningmyway
[00:00:00] Mikenzie: Hey guys, it's Mackenzie. Before we dive into today's conversation, I have a few exciting updates I wanted to share. First, this marks a special milestone for leaning my way. Today's episode is our final guest interview of season one. In two weeks, we'll be back with our season finale, where I'll walk you through the biggest themes and insights from all these incredible conversations, plus share some of the questions I'm most excited to explore in season two.
[00:00:25] Mikenzie: Second, I've been thinking about how to stay connected with all of you between seasons and create more space for us to engage in these big questions together. So I'm launching the leading my way substack.
[00:00:35] Mikenzie: I'll be diving deeper into the themes we explore here, sharing more about my own journey through this explorative phase, and hopefully hear more of your stories and thoughts on these topics. You'll find a link to the substack in the show notes.
[00:00:48] Mikenzie: Finally, one of our previous guests and therapists, Jacqueline Ude, is hosting a really special digital workshop on what she calls mires or the identity shift evoked from the potential to become a mother. She'll be using narrative therapy and guided exercises to help women who are not yet mothers put language to the experiences they're going through that is so rarely talked about openly.
[00:01:09] Mikenzie: The workshop is Monday, July 7th, so this coming up Monday from one to 2:00 PM Eastern. I'll be joining as an attendee, and if any of you guys are curious about exploring these podcast topics on a more personal level, I'd encourage you to check it out too. And if you can't make it, don't worry.
[00:01:25] Mikenzie: Jacqueline and I are planning to co-host some events together later in the summer. Link to our event on July 7th in the show notes. Alright, now for today's episode.
[00:01:35] Mikenzie: hello everyone, and welcome to Leaning My Way, a show where I have honest conversations with working mothers about how they really do it all. Today I'm joined by Olivia pgy, a political risk consultant, entrepreneur, and mother of three. Olivia always lived life by her own rules and lives. It intensely her words, not mine, but from speaking with her, it clearly shows.
[00:01:59] Mikenzie: She's someone who sees a problem in the world and instead of helplessly, shrugging her shoulders like most of us do, Olivia Springs into action. When it came to wanting a big family and a big career, she never saw this as an issue. She wanted both. So she went After both intensely, Olivia built her career tackling the world's toughest geopolitical issues when the political consulting firm she was working for went bankrupt after her second daughter was born.
[00:02:25] Mikenzie: Instead of finding a new job, she convinced a few colleagues to become business partners and turn it around. Incredibly they did and sold it just four years later.
[00:02:36] Mikenzie: But this professional success came with profound personal loss. Shortly after the sale, Olivia lost her third baby just one day before the due date.
[00:02:45] Mikenzie: This devastating experience gave her what she calls a laser focus on the essence of life, a compass for what really matters. Her therapist called it Post-Traumatic Growth for me. I picture Olivia in a Mrs. Incredible Super suit
[00:03:01] Mikenzie: After taking her first real career break to recover, Olivia miraculously got pregnant again. Nine months later, her third daughter was born, her Miracle Baby, a nickname that has already gotten to the toddler's head.
[00:03:14] Mikenzie: Now, Olivia's channeling her superpowers into public policy, working on everything from Global Peace Solutions to community-based mother support. What I love about our conversation was Olivia's brutal honesty. She puts it all on the table, Sharing her views on what's problematic in today's western societal construct for the working mother.
[00:03:34] Mikenzie: The financial realities of both parents wanting a big career and the critical role of a supportive partner to make it all work her key prescription for success, confidence. this conversation left me thinking deeply about my own compass for what matters in life. There's so much to learn here, so let's get into it.
[00:03:54] Mikenzie: Here's my conversation with Olivia Pji.
[00:03:57] Mikenzie: How was your birthday yesterday? Happy belated birthday.
[00:04:00] Livia: It was great. Thank you. I spent the day yesterday. I was a judge for a political risk prize competition at Cambridge University. Spent the day at Cambridge yesterday all day with students. It was great.
[00:04:18] Mikenzie: I. That's a very cool way to celebrate. Did you do anything with the family as well, or just
[00:04:22] Livia: Yes. my girls and my husband made me breakfast and we spent the morning together and then my husband, we walked along the canal and I got on a train at King's Cross and I was off to Cambridge.
[00:04:35] Mikenzie: Sounds delightful. Well, I wanted to start with, so you have three girls. You have quite a big family, especially for a working mother with such a big career but you grew up an only child, and so I'm curious if you always wanted to have a big family or something you came into later in life.
[00:04:56] Livia: I think growing up as an only child, there's a lot of advantages. You know, you. Or close to your parents. In some ways you get a lot of attention, but fundamentally, I was always a very social person and very extroverted, and wherever we would go, I would always make friends and insert myself and to their families.
[00:05:18] Livia: And my dad recently told me that ever since I was about five years old, I always said I wanted. Three or four kids,
[00:05:28] Mikenzie: Oh,
[00:05:29] Livia: there you go.
[00:05:31] Mikenzie: very nice. then career-wise, you've always worked at least tangentially or if not in political risk consulting. Right.
[00:05:39] Livia: Yeah.
[00:05:40] Mikenzie: can you just talk a little bit about what drew you to this field and a little bit of your early career arc? Preki.
[00:05:48] Livia: Yeah. I mean, it's much easier to look back and see why maybe you took decisions then. When you're in the moment where things don't entirely make sense and there's so much uncertainty on what to do next. So with the benefit of hindsight, I think I can say that political and social issues were always a huge part of my.
[00:06:11] Livia: Family life and growing up and my identity, both my parents in very different ways, were very active politically in their lives. my dad was a member of the Italian Communist Party. He in time that was really young, people were very active. he was a prominent figure in it and
[00:06:36] Livia: and I guess you could say he was really sort of a public intellectual in Florence in the sixties. my mom also similarly, was very active, socially, and all the women on my mom's side of the family were as well. So I grew up in this context where we were always debating at the dinner table.
[00:06:55] Livia: You know, what was happening in the world? How could we rectify the situation? And that combined with the fact that I grew up in a bicultural family. I first spent a lot of time in Italy as a kid, then in a very small town, moved to New York City, a big international city.
[00:07:14] Livia: So I was always straddling, different worlds and. It was a very natural progression, to study political science at college. I studied languages and so that's, I would say, where it all began in some
[00:07:31] Mikenzie: Wow. Must have been a huge cultural shock to move from a small town in Italy to New York City.
[00:07:38] Livia: Yeah, absolutely.I mean the two worlds couldn't be more different, but I think that was always, what that became kind of my superpower was always being able to adapt in different situations, and being able to connect with people from different environments and different backgrounds.
[00:07:58] Livia: Yeah. And then in terms of the political risk consulting field, I don't know much about the industry, but one of my best friends. Works, in political consulting and her job is tough. It's a very corporate environment. she works nonstop. Very little flexibility. I'm curious what your experience has been working in this industry,culture wise, and particularly before becoming a mom, and if that impacted your thinking about when you decided to have kids.
[00:08:30] Livia: So what I would say is before I started in political risk, the first part of my career was more in development. So I worked with NGOs and at UNDP andI had quite a bit of experience in Central Asia. and I was actually really considering, you know, working for an international development agency.
[00:08:52] Livia: And really fundamentally, what altered my thinking on it was, first of all. I saw a lot of different issues in the aid sector, which I ended up writing about and doing my dissertation on, and I found that wasn't necessarily the space that I wanted to be in, but it was also in part this need to actually, I wanted to have roots and I didn't wanna be.
[00:09:16] Livia: Moving around. I'd been in Moscow, I had been traveling and I was really a field operator. in part because of my background that I had this bicultural background I could be propelled into, whether it was my small town in Italy or on the Tajik Afghan border, or whether it was in Moscow or you know, in Romania.
[00:09:33] Livia: I could go in anywhere and work and connect and do projects But fundamentally, I decided that I needed roots in one place and that was gonna be London. And, I started working in this space and it is very demanding. intellectually you're working for investors who are very demanding, but fundamentally at the time, it satisfied this need of mine to be.
[00:10:01] Livia: In one place. And that, for me was fundamental. and I have this friend,she's wonderful. She says, you know, at some point you have to decide are you gonna be a family, of branches or roots, right? And branches. You can have all these different beds, which is also great. Or are you going to have roots?
[00:10:22] Livia: And for me, I chose the roots over. The branches, which were very interesting in different parts and traveling, but I needed roots. so that was how I really committed to this idea that I was gonna be in consultancy, because it was work that allowed me to be international, work on some of the world's biggest problems.
[00:10:47] Livia: And. out what problems companies were facing, but fundamentally also be in one place.
[00:10:55] Mikenzie: What's interesting about your story is each of your children correlated with major career shifts for you. And so I actually wanna talk through each, point in your career and motherhood and how that shift of identity looked.
[00:11:10] Mikenzie: so wanna start with your first daughter, and going into that working culture, what made you decide that was the right time to become a mother? I believe it was right around the time you got promoted to be director. I don't know which one came first. but what was your thinking in that initial transition into motherhood for you?
[00:11:32] Livia: I didn't plan it as such. I didn't say, right, this is the time to be a mom. it was quite organic. I always kind of wanted it all. I lived life intensely. I lived my work intensely. I lived my friendships intensely.
[00:11:48] Livia: Then I got married, I lived my relationship intensely, and then I wanted kids. And I do sometimes question, you know, all of the kinds of planning around motherhood. I do have questions around that, how beneficial. That really is, I mean, obviously there's the financial component, which is very real and it needs to be planned for, but I do think that this construction of work versus motherhood, it is of course attention, but I'm not sure it's helpful
[00:12:25] Mikenzie: Hmm.
[00:12:25] Livia: paradigm.
[00:12:27] Livia: To be dividing the two things and put them in contradiction with each other. I don't think that's a helpful framework actually. it's one life and both are enriching your life hugely in, in different ways. And you know, sometimes one leans more towards work and other times one leads more towards motherhood.
[00:12:48] Livia: But I don't think that. Dichotomy is, is helpful actually. So to go back to your question, I mean, when I got pregnant with my first child and I had her that coincided with then getting promoted, at my company. and she just, you know, I had this first order and I.
[00:13:08] Livia: Her name is Alma, and she just gave me so much drive to want to do things. And yes, I wanted to be with her, but I also wanted to really work and I almost, had this drive to want to make her proud even though, she was just a baby. But I guess I was used to having women in my family that always worked and always did both.
[00:13:31] Livia: so at never any point. Did it cross my mind to wanna work less or to take my foot off the gas pedal? and I think what she did was she really kind of straight, she gave me a lot of confidence, which I know is not what you often hear, but she gave me a huge amount of confidence.
[00:13:51] Mikenzie: You know, I was raising a human. I mean, I could do anything really. I love that. and this is why I love having these conversations because it's just really interesting to hear the mindset of people around when they've made certain decisions, both in career and motherhood and how they think about those. Because sometimes you have one way of thinking and you don't really.
[00:14:10] Mikenzie: Even realize there's other possibilities or frameworks to think through. and you have a very inspiring one. and I've heard it a few times of becoming a mother actually gave an increased drive at work. And I think that, for example, is a narrative that we don't often hear, so it's very good to hear it.
[00:14:26] Livia: Yeah, and you know life is a confidence trick. having self-belief is so much of one's quote unquote success or ability to do things and. I think, having children should give you so much belief in your ability to do things. and drive in, in a lot of ways, right?
[00:14:48] Livia: meaningfulI think that was also a drive to do meaningful things. if I didn't find my work meaningful, I would've obviously very much struggled, to. You know, to be separated from my firstborn, to not go do something that I didn't believe in or that I didn't love, that would've obviously been very challenging.
[00:15:10] Livia: But I think it really focuses the mind on what's meaningful
[00:15:15] Mikenzie: we talked about, in our prep call you said something really beautiful, which is entering into motherhood each time Creates a death of oneself in the birth of a new self, like this new identity. Do you feel like you had that identity shift with your first transition into motherhood, and what did that feel like for you?
[00:15:33] Livia: Yeah. I think the reason why I always talk about birth and death of oneself is because I think. Becoming a mom is so extreme, right? physically it's extreme. I mean, women have different experiences, but pregnancy, giving birth, taking care of a newborn, I mean, physically it can be brutal really.
[00:15:53] Livia: And I had hyperemesis with all of my pregnancies, so I was unbelievably sick for all of them, which was really difficult. And I think. You know, becoming a mother is this extreme experience. So there's the physical side. Then there's this intense emotional side where you know, the love that one feels, but also the ambivalence which isn't talked about as much.
[00:16:19] Livia: Also.
[00:16:20] Mikenzie: on that.
[00:16:21] Livia: I mean, it's suddenly,this idea that it's just all love at first sight. I mean, it can be, but also it's very difficult to suddenly shift gears like that. And, again, back to this idea of, life and birth and death. I mean, they're polar opposites.
[00:16:37] Livia: And so you bring a child on onto earth, but you are. you know, your physically, you're making a huge sacrifice. you're losing what your life was like previously. you, lose certain friendships because suddenly even the types of friends you've had, but suddenly might become less, less relevant at that point in time.
[00:16:59] Livia: Or you lose connections with people who you were previously very close to, simply because. There isn't that ability to connect over something so major that happened to you. So I really do think that's an adequate, I guess lens to see it as, you know, it, it is huge gain, but also huge, huge loss.
[00:17:20] Livia: for better or for worse. and with all of my children, it was like that, you know, also with my second baby, I remember. I was delighted she arrived, but I was also remember almost feeling a kind of grief that my family as it was, and my firstborn was suddenly not gonna be the center of attention and there was gonna be a reconfiguration in the family life.
[00:17:44] Livia: And I remember really feeling almost a sadness about that again, that we were gonna be shifting. And then of course, new riches come in and a whole new person comes into the family and sisterly dynamics and. You gain that, but yeah.
[00:18:00] Mikenzie: it's really interesting. I really like the way that you put it around this birth and death and each one gives this huge shift. And so going onto your second daughter, that coincided career-wise. You were working at GPW, but then it went bankrupt and you and some colleagues made the decision to purchase the business.
[00:18:20] Mikenzie: Take it over.
[00:18:21] Livia: and we became partners in it. And so really, I became a shareholder in the business and a partner in the business, very shortly after the birth of my second daughter, Viola. And that marked an entirely different phase of my career, which. was extraordinary, right?
[00:18:44] Livia: thisphase where suddenly you had so much agency over what you could do and build. And I mean, that was unbelievably empowering. this idea that really you could write your ticket And that I think was one of the most enriching experiences of my career.
[00:19:06] Livia: This idea that, and, you know, everyone on the outside could tell you, oh, why would you wanna stay? Why would you wanna do that? Or, you know, the company's not worth anything. It's not going anywhere. And you actually really digging in your heels and sticking it out and creating something from what everyone around you is saying is nothing.
[00:19:29] Livia: was I think one of the greatest, I would say, life lessons, which is that, you have so much agency over what you can build around you, and so much of it is mindset. So much of it is how you wanna look at it.
[00:19:47] Mikenzie: had a conviction to take over the company from the get go. you didn't have to be convinced were you the convincer?
[00:19:54] Livia: I just thought, where else could I ever go? I mean, I am totally, again, going back to that, what we talked about, I've always kind of come from this sort of anti-establishment family and, school was always a challenge. This idea that I had to, be in an institution and.
[00:20:13] Livia: Doing what others were taught. I've always struggled with this. And finally I had this kind of environment where I could really flourish. And one of my employees and you know, he was one of the star performers on my team, he just said, you thrive in chaos. And there was an element of that, and that's where I really got to know myself, which is that.
[00:20:34] Livia: I am very good at thriving when there aren't the rules of the game written out. And that's, I don't know if that's a personality thing or if that's, I don't know, but that
[00:20:46] Mikenzie: It's
[00:20:46] Mikenzie: a great strength
[00:20:47] Mikenzie: to have.
[00:20:48] Livia: that's what I learned about myself is that actually that's when I really
[00:20:53] Mikenzie: Yeah. what did that chaos look like for you both at work and at home? You probably have double chaos. were you able to take maternity leave or
[00:21:03] Mikenzie:
[00:21:03] Mikenzie: did, you have
[00:21:03] Livia: I did. I al I always took maternity leaves, but I also always did work during my maternity leaves. So I had the space, but I also always continued on things that moved the needle and this is a slight, Side topic, but I think as a mom, that's also what it really taught me was work on things that move the needle.
[00:21:26] Livia: That is so important because that prioritization, that's the work on the things that give meaning and experience and move your career forward in an important way, Go to the dinners where you're meeting people that inspire you, do the project that gets your thinking, you know?
[00:21:46] Livia: Focus on the things that move the needle for you in a personal, professional way, or just things that give you joy.that was my motto, really. Things that move the needle will give you joy in some way. but the chaos was really of, just, yeah, just really going at it day by day, little by little every day, just taking action, taking action, taking action.
[00:22:10] Livia: And not being scared by the chaos. I think also, that was just, yeah, a again, you know, that I think in some ways that's a personality thing. some characters tend to be more risk adverse, so others are happier to take on risk. But I just, it didn't frighten, frighten me per se. this kind of uncertainty.
[00:22:33] Mikenzie: Would you say that was the busiest time in your life?
[00:22:37] Livia: Yeah, I would say so. I think it was where I had the most unknown and where
[00:22:48] Livia: I had to create anchors and I had great business partners, and I saw them today as well. and I remember just even with my business partner Ashley, and she was young, like me at the time in the business, and we used to call each other up every morning at seven in the morning and list off what we were gonna do that day
[00:23:09] Livia: Or if we had big pitches. we used to call each other up and we used to do like deep breathing exercises together on the phone. I mean, that's hilarious. Like, you know, I used to call her up and she used to say, right, deep breath, you can do this, you've got this. And then I would go off and do my thing, right, and pitch to a client or do a presentation.
[00:23:29] Livia: So it was about a great support network as well, but just totally navigating through unchartered territory.
[00:23:37] Mikenzie: so I was gonna ask about the practicalities of how you made a work later, once you had all your kids. But I kind of wanna ask now. Because this seems like such a chaotic time and I'm asking myself, how did you do this all practically,
[00:23:52] Livia: so I do think it's really important to have very honest, like. Discussion around this? I do not think I, I haven't seen it. Maybe there's women out there. I don't know them. I haven't met any of them in person, but I think without a really good supportive partner and without the financial means, I think it is very difficult, to build your career.
[00:24:23] Livia: I really, think that's a reality. fundamentally. So my husband was always very encouraging of me, always wanted me to do well. So if I had to go out or if I had to stay late, or we always alternated on childcare, it's 50 50 completely. 50 50. and so I could always count on him. And then secondly, we always had help.
[00:24:48] Livia: Always, we had help from, you know, eight until six every single day. we always had very good help and I think that takes off such a huge weight. I think it's very difficult if you do not have those, two components. I'm not saying it's impossible, but all of the women who. I know have been very focused on the work, have really had that support.
[00:25:13] Mikenzie: so then on that. Were you guys financially planning beforehand to make sure, okay, we know we want a big family and we know we wanna run at careers. Here's what we know we need to do to make sure we're in a good position
[00:25:24] Livia: Yeah, there was financial planning and I also spent my entire salary on childcare. I mean, We, we spent everything on childcare, and getting help. that's what we did.
[00:25:34] Livia: that was the, you know, that was the trade off. and obviously we were, again, I I'm working in the private sector, right?
[00:25:41] Livia: That's part of working in the private sector. These are jobs that also. Pay much better. I think it would've been very difficult if we were working public sector jobs. Both of us are in the private sector, so the salaries are different. and you know, if you do well, you grow, in, in the space financially as well.
[00:25:59] Livia: So, yeah, I think in different sectors it's much more difficult.
[00:26:05] Mikenzie: Do you feel like, the financial burden is highest when the kids are very young because daycare is so expensive, at least in the uk, in the us
[00:26:13] Livia: Absolutely. I mean, my husband and I say it's like it's like a sunk cost basically until they're all at school. it's an investment right now. and to get the help. Needed to be able to work and also just to breathe for a moment as well, right? To just be able to have one evening or a couple of evenings where you can go out.
[00:26:36] Livia: and that we've started to more so now. Before we never did. Before. It was just work home, work home, and that was it.
[00:26:44] Mikenzie: Did that impact your mental health?
[00:26:47] Livia: I mean, I think we age a lot, period. II think we was just, it was just exhaustion. We were utterly exhausted and the kids don't sleep. I can't, yeah, I mean, there was good moments, but it's a bit of a fog.
[00:27:01] Livia: it's pretty brutal. Small kids is tough now that I have ones that are a bit older.I'm sort of spread out now with a 1-year-old. And then the two older girls are five and eight. and I feel like we're coming out of it now.
[00:27:15] Mikenzie: Yeah, you are like, okay, we can see the light at the end of the tunnel now. We'll be able to sleep soon.
[00:27:20] Livia: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
[00:27:23] Mikenzie: So I wanna get into your third pregnancy, which is a very challenging topic to talk about. you unfortunately lost the baby one day before the due date. First, I just wanna say I'm so sorry that that happened and you're incredibly strong and brave to be here talking to me about this and have continued to trek forward.
[00:27:46] Mikenzie: At that same time, you also sold your business, so also this loss and big gain. And so I'm wondering how did that experience impact how you perceive what matters in life?
[00:28:00] Livia: Hmm. Hmm. I mean, I, I, yeah, that was, again, it was one of these moments where I was on, you know, quote unquote on top of the world. we had sold a business. We had bought a house. We were pregnant with our third child. we had always wanted a big family. So on paper, all of these kind of milestone moments, right?
[00:28:25] Livia: And then just as the third baby's about to come, I felt something was wrong and went to the doctor and that was it. And it was, It was utterly, I mean, shock is, is is an understatement, but it was like the, it was like a total reset in, in life, right? Where suddenly, and it's funny, I had always been a bit WI always thought, you know, li life is complicated. I always thought, you can't always have it too good.
[00:28:59] Livia: I was always sort of a very suspicious person. I don't know, maybe that's 'cause of my background or thing, you know, my family's history and sure enough, the moment came where suddenly life gets turned upside down entirely. And, losing a child is, is, from a grief point of view, it's just.
[00:29:19] Livia: You know so much. It's such a huge loss and so much work. You have to go through that process of elaborating what happened and why, and then there's so many questions as to, you know, why me? what is it all about? It's just, it's a whole physical, psychological, philosophical, existential reset where suddenly you really come back to the drawing board and think, what?
[00:29:45] Livia: Is this all about what, you know, it's not even about work or career it's just what, what are we doing here? and it's one of those things, you know, also, many women experience loss at diff, not much, much more rarely when I did, so I. What I had was a, stillborn baby.
[00:30:08] Livia: That's very, quite rare. it still happens more than we think, than what we
[00:30:14] Mikenzie: Do you know.
[00:30:15] Livia: the percentages? Um, it's something like one out of 200, babies, are loss. So yeah, that's that. But I think, you know, then early on in pregnancy, sort of like one out of four miscarriages are really, common. so, it's quite a common phenomena, I would say.
[00:30:32] Livia: And again, it's not something that we talk about much. But again, this, this thing, it's like, you know, having bees, you don't have control over it. it's a creation of life. You don't get to choose. when going back to your first question, how did you guys think about or when do you choose, it's like, I don't know, it's a creation of life.
[00:30:49] Livia: you don't really choose. They come. When they come, if you're blessed to have them, if you're blessed to have them come and actually arrive to the earth, alive and safe, so it's a very spiritual experience where you realize actually there is a, for me, it was my justification or my way of making sense of it, but there is a mother nature.
[00:31:10] Livia: and you don't control, you have so little control. And so it's a very. Humbling experience. and it was really, the only way I got through it actually, was to realize that there has to be something else, in some way. And so I, I would say that was a very long process of going through all the motions and again, the physical recovery of giving birth and.
[00:31:35] Livia: I mean, it was so, so difficult. but I think that was the baby who really taught me sort of the, you know, the, the meaning of it all, actually. The meaning of life paradoxically. and after that, sort of nothing else really. I'm trying to think what's the right word. It's not that nothing mattered, but it's just, it really gives you that laser focus of the essence of life.
[00:32:04] Livia: What, what actually matters. And I think, again, these are the conversations that are really important when we're talking about women career and motherhood. I think a lot of it gets lost in this kind of empty pursuit of success And I think the corporate world has not done any favors in the way, the framework in which you talk about women in careers and how that's been phrased.
[00:32:27] Livia: I mean, that is really disconnected from reality, I think, in a lot of ways. And it just, it just gave me this ability to really get to the heart of it, to live. You know, live richly, live in the center, not get distracted by the roads. That don't mean anything,that don't give you any richness, that don't render anything.
[00:32:54] Mikenzie: what did that
[00:32:54] Mikenzie: look like kind of concretely for you? Was it, was it like around work or was it around other things in your life?
[00:33:02] Livia: Everything. So, I mean, supposedly then I spoke to a grief therapist and she was wonderful. I was lucky to have the best grief therapist, one of the best in the country. I was talking to her and she said, oh ha, that's called post-traumatic growth. So she had a psychological term for what I was
[00:33:18] Mikenzie: Post-traumatic growth. I haven't
[00:33:20] Livia: post-traumatic growth that you can grow as a person after you go through huge trauma.
[00:33:25] Livia: But I mean, what does it look like concretely? It looks like the importance of doing really meaningful work. So having an idea of limited time, of taking on projects that really matter to, to me. spending time with my kids as much as I want to, not feeling, torn. being able to see through, judgment or expectation or, I think concretely it's like a kind of wisdom that comes through and really actually being quite unflappable afterwards.
[00:33:59] Livia: I mean,
[00:34:00] Livia: I sometimes joke even with my team, it's like, I've seen it all. Like, I'm pretty
[00:34:04] Mikenzie: I was gonna say, I don't think anything's as great as the loss of a child,
[00:34:08] Mikenzie: so.
[00:34:09] Livia: what are you gonna, what? I'm not scared, like I'm not scared of anything. You could say whatever you want. It's sort of like a resilience, like I can do what I want. It's kind of was like the ultimate empowerment in some. Odd way. But that is, I mean, I've seen it all really. That's what I feel like you know, that's, again, I can do what I want.
[00:34:30] Livia: I can execute my ideas. I can help others. and just to not get sucked down in pettiness to be big, it teaches you to be big, to rise above it all. That I would say that's it, you know, to rise above it.
[00:34:43] Livia: everything else feels very small in comparison.
[00:34:47] Mikenzie: I'm sure.
[00:34:48] Mikenzie: And so did that lead to a career break at all? 'cause you just sold the
[00:34:51] Livia: yeah, I did. I took off, I took off time. So I took off about eight months actually, and I just spent it with the kids and, I mean, during the day, I was thinking and working on different things that I enjoyed, and at the time I was doing a lot of TV work on Ukraine, but there were things that I wanted to think about.
[00:35:10] Livia: But fundamentally, I spent the time with the kids and sure enough, seven months later, I was blessed to get pregnant again. which was amazing. I mean, I prayed every day for that child to arrive and she. Arrived. She's the gift from God. and again, I, really was not, and I'm not a particularly religious person.
[00:35:35] Livia: I'm definitely spiritual person, but she is, you know, the miracle child. We all call her that.
[00:35:42] Mikenzie: She's gonna be like so confident.
[00:35:44] Livia: I, I know it's fact, it's backfiring already.
[00:35:49] Mikenzie: She is like, I am the magical child
[00:35:52] Livia: We have a 1-year-old tyrant at at home. A miracle child just,
[00:35:56] Mikenzie: Oh man. Oh. How was that pregnancy for you after such a traumatic pregnancy before?
[00:36:03] Livia: oh, it, it was terrifying. It was terrifying in so many ways, but you just had to have faith. I don't know, it was just a day by day. and I had a community of moms who had lost children who I met. Through my network and they would check in on me and I would write them with all of my anxieties and message them with all of my worries and they would reassure me.
[00:36:28] Livia: And yeah, it was just, that'swhat I would say about that. It was just day by day, that pregnancy, literally day by day, we didn't think of anything in the future and. Because the previous loss, that's what it was. It was loss of the future, loss of hope, right? That's what it was. that's what happens when you lose a child so laid on, it's this loss of what it could have been,
[00:36:49] Livia: because you actually still don't really know the person.
[00:36:52] Livia: So it's a diff very specific kind of loss.
[00:36:54] Livia: and with the third baby Delino, it was just day by day and miraculously she arrived. Safe and sound nine months later,
[00:37:05] Mikenzie: Was there anything around fertility or stillbirth that you learned from this experience that you wish you knew before?
[00:37:12] Livia: certainly how prevalent loss is actually. So I've met a huge number of women who. had experienced either miscarriages, struggled with conception, but I think, yeah, so it's much more prevalent than we think, but also what I learned was is that it's something that women have always.
[00:37:33] Livia: struggled with, again, this idea of birth and death. They're so intertwined and religions in different societies talk about this. It's just that our society, where religion isn't so common communities, we don't really have strong communities the same way. We don't really have a framework to deal with this.
[00:37:54] Livia: But a mom from, my daughter's school gave me this unbelievable book at the time, which was really life changing. She was an anthropologist and she gave me a book on rituals of moms and the Brazilian favelas of what they would do when they would lose children. many of their children rather be, because of the poverty, they would die at birth or die shortly after, and the conditions, and then all sorts of traditions and ceremonies.
[00:38:20] Livia: And process to deal with this and support each other. And that was really kind of a pindrop moment for me, where you think, God, you know, women have been dealing with this for centuries and of course medicine is much better now, and it's not as common and all of this, but actually this is part of life.
[00:38:43] Livia: This is part of life. And Judaism, my family's Jewish. Actually an entire ceremony as well that's done for stillborn children who die before 30 days get different type of funeral and ceremony versus those who die after 30 days. So religions have really studied this and there's rituals around this.
[00:39:04] Livia: So going that, that's what I learned. And actually our modern society and the corporate world, or what women infe, you know, we don't, it's like we're so. Far away from this and so removed from what all of our ancestors have been, was part of their lives for centuries,
[00:39:25] Mikenzie: Yeah. Yeah, I think rituals and community are two things as I kind of reflect on. The modern woman that we just are missing, in
[00:39:36] Livia: a hundred percent.
[00:39:38] Mikenzie: a lot of women are starting to look around and be like, wait, this is really lonely. And you know, you're just kind of expected to do the motions and move forward almost like a robot in a way.
[00:39:49] Mikenzie: I don't know.
[00:39:50] Livia: I think that's absolutely spot on. the lack of rituals and community is just it is in all of our lives, but certainly in motherhood, and it makes it extremely difficult and it is so missing. and I think that experience kind of actually brought me into this community of these women who had been through similar things.
[00:40:08] Livia: yeah, I, I really agree with that, that those are two things that are really missing and that actually we really need to be finding ways to build that, rebuild those.
[00:40:18] Mikenzie: Yeah, and so having your third daughter, Daphne, correlated also with another career pivot to enter the public sector,
[00:40:30] Mikenzie: and I wanted to talk a little bit about that decision.
[00:40:34] Livia: So I mean, again, going back to, what the loss meant for me, you know, I, I definitely felt this need. To want to
[00:40:47] Livia: be in the community. And I received so much support. I wanted to support others, and I wanted to, just be engaged with those around me. be in my society, you know, Not have an individualistic life. and that's, again, that's what I mean. my mom, my parents raised me with this.
[00:41:09] Livia: But it really hit home that a rich life is helping others. That is where real richness comes from. and success comes from, that's my experience of it. and so I. Started to be involved. I became chair of this amazing, grassroots community organization in my neighborhood.
[00:41:30] Livia: I live in Camden, which is a very mixed area, with a lot of social deprivation, but also a lot of wealth. I mean, quite similar to where I grew up in New York City, actually, which is why in part, I wanted to live here. and so I've gotten much more involved and now. I'm a trustee at the Camden Art Center, which does a huge number of public art projects as well.
[00:41:50] Livia: And it's, all about basically creating a community space for people to come together to see art, visit art, make art together. And these are two projects that I do quite a lot. and going forward, I'm also working out other ways now. to support, you know, policy areas, possibly I'm looking at the idea of, how would I get involved in local politics?
[00:42:14] Livia: And these are all things that are certainly next, for me in my next phase. and again, it goes back to the daughters and it's this idea that you wanna improve the society and. For them as well. So it's the drive to wanna create a world for them. and I guess brings us full circle to how we started in some ways this conversation, which is that they, it's a full life.
[00:42:43] Livia: the two things aren't separated. This work and motherhood, they have to be, they're one thing. and one drives the other.
[00:42:51] Mikenzie: I mean, especially in the way that I think you've approached it. I do think there's some women that will hold it quite distinct, but I think here has a very integrated approach. both in terms of what you've decided to do with your life, like the type of work and the way that you approach work and motherhood, which is really
[00:43:09] Mikenzie: beautiful. Are there any specific policy areas that you are interested in trying to focus on in the public sector?
[00:43:18] Livia: so I'm very interested in, women's policies. Certainly, that's an area that I've been giving a lot of thought to. What are the things around childcare? What are support, how do you finance,Childcare. So these are huge topics that I'm really interested in. And also, I mean, just because of my work, I do spend a lot of time thinking about foreign policy, which isn't so much at the local community, but kind of at the macro, like I mean, just very fundamentally, how should states act and how do we reach peace?
[00:43:47] Livia: I mean, clearly We're in a totally different era right now of where it looks like everyone is intentionally trying to, have full ward and destruction. But how should we be interacting as states? what types of international relations should we be having?
[00:44:04] Livia: or should we live in fear and react, on the assumption that. we will be destroyed if we don't defend ourselves. And I think these are really fundamental values and questions about our humanity. How do we relate to each other?
[00:44:23] Mikenzie: Well, it's incredibly crucial right now, so thank you for doing the really hard work on both Mother Parenting policy and foreign policy, I feel like are the two most important
[00:44:35] Mikenzie: things right now. I like to end on. A quick fire round of questions. So just quick question, quick response. what's one thing your daughters have taught you that makes you a better business leader or public servant? I.
[00:44:54] Livia: One thing that they've taught me is, I would say that, you can really, hand it all, nothing, nothing should scare you.
[00:45:04] Mikenzie: Hmm. And this one goes back to what we were just talking about, but if you could enact one policy change in the UK to better support mothers, what would it be?
[00:45:13] Livia: I don't know what this would look like as a policy, but we should be creating, big communities at the local level and providing community support to, moms and finding creative solutions for childcare.
[00:45:27] Mikenzie: Do you have an example of what that could look like?
[00:45:30] Livia: I, I mean, there is a bit of it here, and I've actually benefited it from it. but there's centers like drop-in centers for moms to go with their babies, right? And those are huge source of support. So I think working out how to create these, and even have him on a bigger scale, that would be so beneficial.
[00:45:48] Livia: And going back to that. Idea that you know, you need community.
[00:45:53] Mikenzie: Yeah, a hundred percent excited to see more of those pop up. I have a few friends who are both pregnant and then new mothers who, those small community groups that they get paired in through the NHS
[00:46:05] Mikenzie: or just Different community organizations have been really pivotal.
[00:46:09] Livia: They play a really big role.
[00:46:10] Mikenzie: And one of my goals with the podcast is to try and kind of build a community.
[00:46:15] Mikenzie: Of both new moms, but also women who are not mothers yet, who are going through that decision point and feeling isolated in it. So
[00:46:23] Livia: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:46:24] Mikenzie: then the last question is, what's one piece of advice you'd give your pre-kids self?
[00:46:30] Livia: it all works out and that you are more resilient than you think.
[00:46:38] Mikenzie: You're very resilient, so
[00:46:40] Livia: I think that's
[00:46:40] Mikenzie: hundred percent
[00:46:42] Livia: yeah.
[00:46:42] Mikenzie: Well, Olivia, thank you so much for the time. Your story is so inspiring.
[00:46:46] Mikenzie: I love your mindset, your optimism, your determinism to do good in the world. It's really beautiful. Your daughters and your husband are very lucky.
[00:46:55] Livia: thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:46:58] Mikenzie: That's all for today's episode of Leaning My Way. If you're enjoying the show, please follow us on Apple
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[00:47:12] Mikenzie: Know someone with a unique story about balancing career and motherhood. Or maybe you have that story yourself. Reach out. I'd love to hear from you. Okay, until next time, friends.