Reflections from the Front: The Experiences of Women Veterans | Reflections from the Front (Grethe Cammermeyer)

What is Reflections from the Front: The Experiences of Women Veterans ?

Reflections from the Front: The Experiences of Women Veterans is a podcast that grew out of the interviews Parker Beverly, VSFS intern, conducted with women Veterans in the Fall of 2021 and Spring of 2022. Each episode focuses on the military career of a different woman with some serving overseas in Vietnam or the Pacific during World War II while others served on the home front. Despite having varying experiences, the women all showed incredible resolve in the face of adversity. The podcast aims to shed light on the stories of women Veterans who paved the way for future generations of women in the military.

Hello and welcome to this episode of Reflections From the Front: The Experiences of Women Veterans, a podcast created by VA History Office interns Parker Beverly and Hannah Nelson. In this edition, we will be speaking with Colonel Grethe Cammermeyer. She first joined the military at 19 years old, serving as a nurse in Germany, Vietnam, and the US. Colonel Cammermeyer has an expansive military career and served as an advocate for LGBT rights of service members. She has written an autobiography Serving in Silence that traces her story. This was developed into a television movie of the same name produced by Barbra Streisand, starring Glenn Close in 1995.

I was born in Norway in 1942, under Nazi occupation, my parents worked with the underground there and so sometimes I became a decoy for their activities. We, my father was a neuro pathologist, and it was the first Norwegian to get a Rockefeller Fellowship. And we went to Boston for nine months right after the war, then returned to Norway. And he was subsequently invited to come and work at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology in Washington, DC. So we emigrated then in 1951. I was nine at the time, and two of my three brothers were also born in Norway. So the there were three of us at that time that came over with my parents. We settled in Washington, DC area, and because obviously, he worked in Washington, DC, and then my father went on to work at the National Institutes of Health until his retirement. So I was then raised in the United States in the suburbs of DC in Bethesda, Maryland.

What was that transition ike to the US life for you? What was that kind of like?

Well, the main thing I remember is that I couldn't speak English. And so I had no way of communicating with people early on, and felt like I had been just sort of uprooted, you know, and then dropped into the United States. And it was, it was a lonely time, and everything was new and foreign. And living on the east coast. In the Washington DC area was hot, humid, sticky, and not knowing much as I would walk to school, I would take some leaves and put on my eyes, and come home, and my face would be all puffy. Because I didn't know what poison ivy was, Oh, no. So my whole face would be swollen from the poison ivy. And so you know, there are those vivid memories of use in Washington DC. Go going to college was a big deal, because I was the first in my family to leave home and went a little bit wild. I was starting pre med at the time, but had way too much fun. My first year in college, and so my grades were not really good. And sort of the condition on which I was able to stay in school would be to, you know, switch over. So I go to a less rigorous course schedule at the time. So I switched to nursing, didn't think very much of nursing. It seemed very demeaning at the time. Because, you know, if you were in the hospital, for example, you would have to stand up and relinquish your chair to the physician when he came in, and it was pretty demeaning. And no, so it was trying to figure out a way of, of making meaning out of out of nursing and a friend told me about the army student nurse program, and it seemed like that aha moment of, well, you could join the military, be have nursing would have real meaning and significance, and at the same time, could give something back to the United States for opening up their opportunities for my father. And so I joined in my junior year of college and finished up school and went as soon as I passed State Boards went right on active duty in Texas, and absolutely loved it. But you know, in those days, the military was for women were still quite restrictive. Women couldn't be married, and join the military. As, as a nurse, I couldn't be married, and go to college and studying nursing. So that was equally restrictive there. And then over time, that policy changed, and so I was able to marry men. And we were both in the military for a period of time. And we're both in Vietnam. I was there 14 months, and he was there 12, because I extended to try to rotate home at the same time that he did. And so when we came back, we had decided to start our family. I was pregnant and the military had a policy where women could, could be married, but you couldn't have dependents under 16. And so I was forced to leave the military. Then in 1968. The policy subsequently changed. And so in 1972, I returned to the military. This time, I had one son, and I was very pregnant with my second son. And so that was in '72. And then I continued in the military for a career after that.

So what did your friends and family think of your decision to to enlist?

Well, in 1961, when I enlisted, there was still the stigma for women that were joining the military were there to have a husband, either they were a whore, or they were a lesbian. So the propaganda that had perpetuated itself after the war, sort of negated the role of women. Whereas during the war, you know, women participated in many, many significant capacities. And so there was this lingering, and that if you read the literature that the conversation about women in, in World War Two, especially towards the end, and when they were trying to, to reduce the size of the women in the military, it was to really make it seem very negative, in terms of their roles and significance. And so the, the propaganda was that the only reason that women joined were for these secondary gains, rather than for wanting to be essentially all that they could be within the military in those opportunities. So my parents as foreigners, to the United States, heard these conversations from their, their, their friends. And we're sort of shocked because my parents had been part of the Norwegian resistance, and had seen the other side of contributing to a cause. So they, they had this cognitive dissonance, from their own experience and from that of their friends, but at the same time, were supportive of me in any way that I wanted to pursue my future.

Could you tell me a little bit about what your role exactly was in the military? What did you do as a nurse?

Well, a nurse in the military, it's like anyone else in the military — You do just everything under the sun. You know, I had just graduated from college and they were two different avenues for becoming a nurse. One was through a hospital program where you became an RN, but you didn't have your bachelor's degree. So there was a certain amount of tension between the nurses who had one type of education versus another. In my case, coming out of college, I had the the didactic, but not the practical component. So especially the first eight, eight to 10 months or so it was really learning how to be a nurse as well as how to be an officer and the military gave me the opportunity to do both. And so there was the extra etc, those who had preceded me, and the higher ranking, who knew that it would take just a little while for a young lieutenant to learn how to be a nurse, and how to be an officer within that framework also. And so I started as I think my my first assignment after boot camp was at Fort Benning, Georgia, where I worked in the women's Ward, and then subsequently intensive care for a period of months, and then had wanted to go to Germany and we got orders and then went to Nuremberg, Germany, and was there for two and a half years where I was everything from a staff nurse working recovery and intensive care to medical ward, he then became an educational coordinator, training medics to go to Vietnam, because that was the beginnings of the build up for Vietnam. And so the opportunity to train medics to was very challenging to say the least. And then after, after Germany, I ended up going to Fort Lee, Virginia, where my husband was also assigned. And then he received orders for Vietnam. And I went to Washington and said, you know, if and when my husband goes, I would like to go well, so I didn't want to sit home and wait for that phone call or knock on the door. And so that wish was granted, I got orders and my husband's orders were cancelled. And so I ended up going over first, and then his unit came over later on. And in Vietnam, I was head nurse of medical intensive care, just any type of medical situation, ward for six months, and then became the head nurse of a neurosurgical intensive care unit for my last eight months in, in Vietnam. I was there in '67-'68. So it was relatively early in our time of conflict, that we were there. And at that time, I think there was naiveness of those of us in the military that well, we were there because of the concern about a domino effect of the country's being just gradually overrun by communism. And so I remember that there was a lot of tension in the civilian community. And this was still the time of the draft. And so we were feeling the tension of what was happening at home and politically, versus that we were in the military and we obeyed orders, regardless of what we did not understand about, why do we were there and that, you know, got worse over the years. But early on, they were not the same types of issues that that developed later on with drug abuse and racial tensions and things like that, that I don't recall seeing or being involved with, at all during my time there, but obviously, it sort of perpetuated itself, as did the tensions back here in the United States. But from a perspective of a nurse, it was in the military, it was exactly where you were supposed to be. Because you were caring for, by and large, the American soldier who was sort of the epitome of the best that America could be, and that was our role. And the influence of the type of care we learned and participated in of for our soldiers in Vietnam, I think carried with me throughout my career. I mean, enough so that my last months, eight months in Vietnam specialising in neuro became the focus of my master's degree and also my PhD and subsequently my clinical work at the VA. And so it had a profound effect. I had to stand on principle and like disobey a direct order from a superior officer, fearing that I might lose my career, but that I had to take that stand because of the condition of my patients, and I could not leave and, you know, so there, you know, was a situation that, you know, you wonder if you have the character to stand and do what is right. There was a young man that we cared for in in Vietnam, who had had half of his brain blown away, he was unconscious. And usually we try to get patients out within, within a week or so after surgery, but he had so many bone fragments that had to be removed. And he was unconscious, didn't respond for the time that he was there. And I always made a point of talking to the patients before we evacuated them home. And so this fellow, his name was Leroy, I don't know what his last name was. But I certainly remember his first name. And I said, Leroy, we're getting ready to send you home. And he opened the one eye that he had left. I mean, that was a shock effect. I mean, we had had no response from him. And here, he was opening his eyes. And I sort of caught myself and then continued to explain to him what the process was going to be that he would go by helicopter to a medivac plane, and then would be flown home to the United States, via Japan. And when I was done, he, he gave me the high sign, you know, with his fingers, you know, I wept, and, you know, everybody else who had been working with him for weeks, you know, were astounded and came and talked to him. And I mean, that was just just a profound moment on the good side. And then, on a tragic side was a young 18 year old who had a really a high cervical injury, and was on a respirator to sustain his life and give him you know, some time to see whether or not he could get off the respirator so we could evacuate him home. And for three days, he would just every time the machine would push breath into his lungs, he would weep out, help me, help me, help me. And this, this went on for three days. While you know, we tried to do everything we could to get him weaned. But you know, there was there was a calmness as, as he died, that sort of shook us to the core, essentially,realizing how really helpless we were, in some, some situations, and, you know, so you carry with you those those memories and pictures in your head of these young guys desperately injured, and then wondering, whether death would be better than surviving and being maimed for the rest of their lives.

How would you say that your military service changed you? What did you learn from your experience?

Well, I think I naively, for a long time, believed that the military took care of its own, and that there was sort of a trajectory from the military then to support by the VA and regardless of the best of intentions and lip service provided, it didn't always happen that way. What I what I learned about myself is that I would stand on principle. Do the right thing as I perceived it, and tell the truth. On a personal level, I got divorced. I realized years later that I was a lesbian, fell in love with a woman, and that was against military regulations at the time. And so I challenged that I told the truth in a top secret security clearance and was subsequently discharged from the military. And that's where that feeling of that no, the military didn't take care of its own, came about And so went into federal court, and subsequently won my lawsuit and that my discharge was unconstitutional. And I was reinstated and went back in the military for an additional one year of active reserves, and then two years of inactive, sort of to prove the point that you could continue to serve in the military, regardless of your sexual orientation. When my case, started, it was in 1991, that it first became public, and even talking about sexual orientation was like a foreign language to society as a whole. Homosexuality was sort of defined by a far radical, evangelical perspective, and that this was, you know, against God, and that it was a curse, and we were an abomination and child predators and AIDS was, you know, God's gift to homosexuals to get a get rid of them. And so so there was a lot of negative connotation with regard to sexual orientation. And, and so it, you know, I was probably as homophobic as anybody else, in terms of what will people say. Will I ever have any friends? Will my kids want anything to do with me? And so it was extremely awkward. You know, I had been a very private person, and now it was, you know, for public display. And that was before the movie, Serving in Silence. And before my book came out, so I was trying to be the spokesperson, I guess, for everybody else who might be in the military, and trying to sustain a career, that let me do the talking, and you stay in and serve. And I think it felt that for a long time, it felt really sort of like I had to rip open and talk about something that was so personal, and yet nobody else's business. You know, it's like, what does my sexual orientation have to do with you? And it really the, the answer would be nothing. And yet, it had taken on such a negativeperspective in society that somebody had to, you know, try to flip the switch a little bit to, to begin to talk more about that there were lots of people who happened to be gay or lesbian in society that you never knew about. And of course, the interesting thing is that the minute you open the door, somebody else will, in the in the group will say, you know, I have a son, or my brother or sister happened to be a lesbian. It's sort of like, it gave permission for the conversation to take place, about sexual orientation. And the more you talk, the more people realize that we are just like everybody else.

When President Clinton enacted the Don't Ask, Don't Tell. I became very much of an, I guess, activist for human rights, and did a lot of educational programs at various universities, talking about the adverse effects of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. And then in 2010, after 17 years, I was invited to lead the Pledge of Allegiance at the signing ceremony for the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. And so, for me, you know, out that whole scenario, took a full circle and sort of vindicated my challenge to that existing policy, even though it took a long while to get there.

Do you think society's perceptions of women changed as a result of their service in the Vietnam era?

I think so. I think the role of women there, you know, it became, I think there were a couple of things. One is that Vietnam was sort of finite, you went there for 12 months, and unless you extended, then you came back. And, you know, there were many who, who did come back, and who never talked about the fact that they had been to Vietnam, because there was such a negative perception of service members, and the work that people did, and, you know, as a nurse and a woman, there was also the opportunity to separate that, over the years, we have seen the roles that women can have no longer hindered by gender, but by expertise, and what they're able to do it. And more recently, was the lifting of the ban against women in combat, which is particularly significant since women had been serving in combat, and in combat assigned to combat units, as you know, auxilary, but couldn't be part of the unit. Because for example, in the in the mid '80s, you had to have women interrogators, you had to have women where there were women. And so they were there the whole time. But for some well, for reasons of the military history and bias, they were not given permission to serve in combat, and therefore their experiences were not reflected in their military records. So that when that time came for promotion, they had no, there was no way to record the fact that they had been in combat, which is significant when you are vying for promotion, in those those higher grades. So the combat exclusion has been lifted, the lifting against, you know, women being rangers, or there is no longer any, I don't believe that there are any areas where women cannot work nowadays. And it's always surprising when some of us old folks thinking of somebody going to ranger training, or as a woman, and succeeding or excelling. But, you know, also the military academies opened up in the mid 70s and they had been exclusionary before also. So there have been innumerable changes. And I think with that, you've not that you don't have individual biases, you know, the commanders may not like someone because whatever the characteristic is, so those exist just because we're human, but I think in terms of a system, that has markedly improved over the years

We still have a military that is really highly functional and has a purpose. Over the years I, I have come to realize more and more that, you know, in war, nobody wins. Everybody loses and that you want to have a military to defend if necessary, but you would hate to have to use it as an offensive weapon. And because it all it has cost is 20 years of lives lost and it's not just the lives of people who have died, but the cost to families in when individuals come home. So I think — let us stay out of wars. Let us open up our service to fair treatment for everyone. It's like I can be judged on the person that I am in the job that I do.

Thank you for joining us for this episode of reflections from the front. We hope you will join us for our next conversation with former Army nurse and World War Two Veteran Regina Benson on the next episode of this podcast.