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Join Julie Liddell, Head of Culture and Wellbeing at Edwin People and Charnice Scott, Director of Strategy and Partnerships at Edwin as they explore the ideas, experiences and challenges helping shape the future of schools and trusts in the UK.
Edwin Talks, an education podcast for teachers, leaders and school staff, brings together influential voices from across the sector for honest and thought-provoking conversations about what matters most.
From leadership and culture to workforce, wellbeing, policy and innovation, Edwin Talks uncovers fresh perspectives and practical insights from the people who know education best.
Learn more about Edwin at edwin.group
Julie: [00:00:00] Welcome to Edwin Talks, an education podcast for leaders, teachers, school and trust staff. Bringing together influential voices from across the sector for honest and thought-provoking conversations. I'm your host, Julie Liddell, and today I'm chatting to Laura McPhee. Laura is Director of Education at University Schools Trust.
Julie: Prior to this, Laura was an experienced headteacher. She has a proven track record of leading transformational change and successful school improvement journeys across London. Laura is a facilitator for the National Professional Qualification Facilitator for Headship, the NPQH, on behalf of the London South Teaching School Hub, and a school improvement consultant for the Better Futures team.
Julie: She holds a number of trustee positions and enjoys guest lecturing. She's the author of Empowering Teachers, Improving Schools: Belonging, Psychological Safety and School Improvement, and a co-author of Tackling Poverty and Disadvantage in Schools. Laura has a strong interest in education policy and is passionate [00:01:00] advocate for social justice in education.
Julie: It was wonderful to chat to Laura in this episode and hear her share her wisdom around the importance of creating school environments where staff felt trusted, valued, and safe. In the conversation, we discuss belonging, psychological safety, flexible working, and the power of distributed leadership and place-based support.
Julie: Enjoy.
Julie: I'm delighted to be joined today by Laura McPhee, Director of Education for University Schools Trust and author of Empowering Teachers: Improving Schools, Belonging, Psychological Safety and School Improvement, amongst countless of other things, Laura. So thank you so much for joining us today.
Laura: Oh, thank you, Julie.
Laura: Lovely to be here.
Julie: Absolutely. Was really looking forward to this conversation this morning. We've had a little pre-meet, haven't we, Laura? We're definitely on the same page. We get excited by the same things. Um, so yeah, was really looking forward to this [00:02:00] conversation today. So Laura, you've had an extensive career, um, in education, including a headship.
Julie: If I'm right in my thinking, you may be a bit of an accidental educationalist. Um, that might be, that might be a, a kind of term to frame it, but could you just give us a brief potted history of your career so far?
Laura: Oh, yes. Spot on. And I'm glad you mentioned that, 'cause I always forget to start with that, to be honest.
Laura: So I had a very different career first, and I'm keen to point out there was no life plan. I, um, fell into teaching and, as I say, came to teaching late. Started off in a, a gorgeous, outstanding school at the time in Enfield and had a really fabulous start and, because I, you know, surrounded by lots of supportive colleagues.
Laura: But I think the interesting thing about that is, I suppose you're in a bit of a bubble then at the start. Went off to work in lots of different settings subsequently. Had some really positive experiences, maybe some less positive experiences too, but [00:03:00] learnt from all of those. As you said, then went on to headship.
Laura: Did that for nearly 10 years, which really was, I will say, the privilege of a lifetime, for all the complexities, uh, that it involves. And then, as you say, now I'm Director of Education, um, in East London, and have the privilege of looking after a group of schools. And then when I'm not busy doing the day job, I am busy writing, thinking, researching about a range of topics, and have just recently started my doctorate at University of East London, which is really about exploring how cognitive diversity shapes and impacts team dynamics and performance, essentially.
Julie: Amazing. Do you know that, um, extensive experience that you've had in, in your own journey through education, like, it shines through in your book, and I think your passion, um... And I didn't realize you were doing a doctorate as well. Um, you are just incredibly passionate about the education space, about what education can look like.
Julie: Um, [00:04:00] so I'd like to talk about your book, if that's okay, Empowering Teachers, Improving Schools, and then it's got the subtitle Belonging, Psychological Safety and School Improvement. Published by Sage, it came out this year. Why this book, and why now?
Laura: Oh, you've started off some nice, juicy questions for us there, Julie.
Laura: Um, so as you pointed out, the book is rooted in the principles of psychological safety. I really prefer Amy Edmondson's definition of this, right? So she's Professor of Leadership and Management at, at Harvard University, and she talks about, she defines psychological safety as being this idea that we can speak up, we can share ideas, we can ask questions, ask for help, and we can learn from mistakes.
Laura: But ideally, we should be able to do that without fear of reprisal or humiliation or basically being worried that we're gonna be told off, um, or humiliated in some way. I would say, I would go so far as saying we are surprisingly weak at that in education [00:05:00] settings and more broadly across the sector, and I'll kind of share some examples of that.
Laura: I'd say at this point a bit of a disclaimer. It's also not an invitation to just kinda say what you want whenever you want, and I think that's sometimes what makes leaders wary of this idea. And we also, I think, need to do a bit of myth-busting when it comes to psychological safety, that it's not just some light, fluffy, nice to have, um, and it's not just about making people feel good, right?
Laura: There is this direct correlation between high levels of psychological safety and high performance, too. So contrary to popular beliefs, it isn't just the dilution of standards, right? Because, in fact, the opposite happens, right? So when teams have this great understanding of psychological safety, of course people then feel safe to suggest alternatives, right, and improved, better ways of working.
Laura: And I think there's something really interesting about that because as educators we champion accountability. [00:06:00] But, of course, accountability in the absence of psychological safety, if we're not careful, can stifle innovation, it can limit progress, and I'd go so far as to say it can encourage poor leadership behaviors.
Laura: And I would go so far as to say, look, I was really lucky. I talked a little bit about the start of my career, that really positive experience I had in Enfield when I started out as an NQT in those days. I was a quick learner, and for the most part I was surrounded by really exceptional leaders who were extraordinarily generous with their, um, expertise and their support.
Laura: But that hasn't always been the case, and the evidence base suggests that I'm not alone, right? That other people might have had similar experiences. And I would bet that you or someone that you know has, at one time or another, been worried about expressing their opinion at work, often, again, for fear of reprisal or, um, perhaps they're worried about sharing a concern or an [00:07:00] idea, or just afraid to ask a question.
Laura: And sometimes that's because people have had to face unfair criticism or perhaps this is set against the backdrop of systemic barriers, right? We know that schools are just little bubbles and microcosms of what happens in wider society. And I think what we don't, unfortunately, talk enough about is this idea that the sector at large has been impacted by this.
Laura: So in a profession that's really high stakes, whether that's Ofsted or league tables, y- we've got lots of accountability measures, right? Which is not a problem in itself, but when that's set against a backdrop of a lack of psychological safety, at times that's resulted in exclusionary practice, and I think that's amplified when we have weak education policy that provides these really perverse incentives, and I think off-rolling's like a great recent example of that.
Laura: So we're also seeing this direct correlation between staff engagement and pupil engagement now, and I think we've [00:08:00] got great organizations like ImpactEd proving that through the brilliant research that they're doing. So unsurprisingly, when staff feel trusted, supported, um, and purposeful, so do pupils, right?
Laura: We see this direct correlation. And in schools where actually teachers are much more engaged in their work, pupils are more engaged in their studies. But we don't celebrate that or acknowledge that correlation enough. However, the research also shows that our sense of belonging isn't evenly distributed.
Laura: So for example, with pupils who are disadvantaged or pupils who have special educational needs, they're reporting significantly lower levels of inclusivity. So it feels like there's never been a more urgent time to talk or think about that psychological safety and what, what the correlation of that is.
Julie: There's loads in there that I wanna pick up on, Laura. Yeah. So I think you're absolutely right, and I think there has never been a more important time to talk about this because exactly as you say, [00:09:00] that staff engagement impacts on the, the pupil, the student engagement as well, um, which is absolutely key.
Julie: So when you wrote this book then, which... And I'm gonna cover all of those things we've just talked about, that idea of psychological safety, that idea of belonging. Who are you hoping will read it? Who, who's your audience?
Laura: Yeah, that's a really great point. I kind of wrestled with this when I was writing it because the publisher was, uh, kind of going back and forth with me about it, and I think there's that tension between the idea that, of course, the culture is set by leaders at the top- And of course, you want leadership teams to really respect, promote, value psychological safety.
Laura: At the same time, in the early days when I was championing this, I think I really oversimplified that notion. And in the same way we talk about safeguarding being everyone's responsibility, I really feel that with psychological safety too, in terms of that peer [00:10:00] support and the vertical and horizontal relationships.
Laura: And I wish in those early days I'd spent equal time and attention championing the idea that peer support, peer challenge is required also when we talk about speaking up and ensuring that people feel safe to do that. Because if nothing changes, nothing changes. Now, of course, you have to feel safe to do that, hence the, the safety aspect, and schools are notoriously hierarchical and monocultural in their design.
Laura: So we've also got these often, not, not always, but often in schools, got these steep power gradients that we have to navigate as well. So when it comes to psychological safety, we don't all have the same st- starting point. We referenced already that schools are these microcosms of what's happening in out in wider society.
Laura: So that's not to say it's straightforward, but I think there is a collective responsibility as well as it coming from [00:11:00] leaders at the top. For that reason, I kinda just want everyone to get stuck into the book and make see what they make of it.
Julie: That's how I felt though. I felt like whilst it, you know, whilst in a way a lot of kind of what you're talking about, uh, is potentially leader-focused, it's not for those exact reasons you've just described.
Julie: It's kind of, I think, wherever you are, whatever your role, wherever your, you know, stage or, or, you know, of your career, there's a lot in here that could be really beneficial. Because I think in some ways what you're talking about, you're talking about improving skills, so you're talking about it on that microcosm level.
Julie: But I also think you're talking about it in the education system as a whole, aren't you? Um, now, there's a bit in it and you talk about, I think it might be in t- the introduction, and you say you've got a healthy disregard for rules, which I love. Um, does that translate then as a bit of a desire to maybe shake things up a little bit in education, um, and is this book part of it, in a really positive way and in a [00:12:00] really kind of tangible way?
Julie: Was that kind of your motivation as well?
Laura: That's really funny that you picked... I think it comes from, I think, I think it comes from this idea that if we're honest- We bring, we're not just our professional selves, but our lived experiences to work too, right? So, um, when you asked me about my career history, what I didn't share was my lived experience, right?
Laura: Which is that I grew up in a... I am, I am gonna answer your question, I'm going somewhere with this. But I, I grew up in a predominantly white suburb, London suburb, as a mixed-race child, free school meals, skinny little kid, lots of interaction with social care and, um, police, and my brother was permanently excluded from school.
Laura: At one point, Julie, I remember there was, like, a petition on the street because you did not wanna live next to our family. And that was something that I was like so... When I first joined the teaching profession, I would never have talked about that. I was so excruciatingly [00:13:00] embarrassed, ashamed, you name it.
Laura: For years I wouldn't have spoken about that. But as a leader, and I'm not wildly comfortable talking about it now, to be honest, but as leader I try and intentionally reference it because I think our best teachers and leaders understand that duality. That whilst, yes, I had quite complicated aspects going on at home, there was also lots to celebrate and lots of joy.
Laura: You know, shout-out to organizations like Reach and Cygnus Academies Trust. There are ob- obviously lots of others that work from a strengths-based approach and understand that well. But the system I think sometimes is set up, as I said, I kind of referenced earlier these kind of KPIs we have to hit, and education policy that sometimes doesn't reward necessarily or, or encourage certain leadership behaviors.
Laura: And I think that's where that desire to acknowledge, shake up, have those important discussions comes from. It's funny that you [00:14:00] reference this. There's a head teacher that I work with who refers to me as the positive disruptor, and I thought, "Oh, I quite like that, actually." But I think, yeah, if, if nothing changes, nothing changes, and we've got brilliant educators in and around the system who are keen to, I think, understand that these things ne- needn't be mutually exclusive.
Laura: We can absolutely work from a strengths-based approach, hit really important KPIs, make sure children reach their full potential, and acknowledge the accountability measures that we must hit, and those things don't have to operate in tension or, or, or it be opposing forces. Does that sort of make sense?
Julie: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that as well, Laura. I appreciate, you know, it's not necessarily an easy, easy story to share. I was just thinking there, obviously one of the themes within the book is, is belonging. And as you say, they're all, they're all kind of interwoven, and they're, they're not mutually exclusive.
Julie: Do you think your lived experience kind of [00:15:00] drives your, your beliefs and the importance that you place on belonging? And that, you talk about belonging not just for students, but belonging for staff. Do you think that's kind of, you know, driven a little bit that, kind of where, where you've seen what it feels like to not belong and how important belonging is to us as humans?
Laura: Yeah, great question. I didn't for a long time. And then started to notice this, this pattern emerge about where I was choosing to work, the environments I was choosing to work in, and I suppose the communities I was choosing to serve. And I suppose that probably forced me to acknowledge the correlation, yeah, between my lived experiences and particularly, as I say, all of the rich evidence based the research that organisations like Impact Ed produce, which is the relationship between the staff experience and the pupil experience.
Laura: So often, and it's well-intentioned, I get it, but so often we talk about pupils' experience of belonging like it takes place in a vacuum or in silo over here. [00:16:00] I think, "Oh, uh, that's really odd," because we all are trying to do similar things, right? When you look at school websites, they all purport to have similar sense of values, ethos, et cetera.
Laura: But we know what it is to walk into a school and you immediately feel it come alive, and similarly to walk into a setting where that isn't the case. Because of course there is this direct correlation between the staff's experience of belonging or the community, wider school, school community strengths-based approach, and the pupils.
Laura: So yeah, I would, I would say absolutely that is. And I've also tried to be really honest, particularly when I'm speaking at live events, around my own personal journey and reflections, and missteps I've made about trying to conform, um, when I've worked in cultures or spaces where there hasn't been, um, a high premium placed on psychological safety.
Laura: And I've reflected and gone, "Actually, was I serving my community [00:17:00] and the pupils as best as I could by conforming to those behaviors?" Probably not. I was hitting all those KPIs. We were getting great results. We were turning schools around. But actually, was I serving the community and leading in line, in alignment with my values?
Laura: No, I wasn't. And actually, was there a better way of doing that? And through mentorship and all that reflection, then, yeah, things started to change, and I was very fortunate to be surrounded by people who helped me to do that eventually. What I would also add is that I'm really interested in that relationship between attachment theory and the principles and how we bring, as I say, our lived experiences to work as well.
Laura: Because whether or not we're ready to acknowledge that, those parts of ourselves will find a way to show up.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Laura: So I think if we're really sincere and interested in providing... I mean, we have a responsibility to, right? To provide safe, inclusive cultures in school settings for children. [00:18:00] Maybe that work starts with ourselves.
Julie: Yeah.
Laura: But of course, that's a, that's, that's a difficult ask.
Julie: Yeah. Yeah. And I suppose it's at what point of the, the journey do we encourage that, give space to reflection? Are we talking about, you know, at the very early days of teacher training? Are we talking about when you're going into leadership? Are we talking about it as a school's responsibility?
Julie: I suppose there's just a lot to, to kind of think about there, isn't there?
Laura: Absolutely, and I'm not suggesting for a minute we all go around psychoanalyzing each other. What a horrible thought. Or suggesting that the workplace is the best place to do that. Again, what a horrible thought. But going back to your id- idea of this collective responsibility and personal responsibility, exactly that, Julie.
Laura: I think there's layers to it, and hopefully we're seeing a shift in parts of the sector where people are seeing, to coin your phrase, like, this human side of leadership where we understand they don't have to be opposing forces. And hopefully we're seeing this policy shift where- You know, [00:19:00] things like a greater focus on place-based support, the inclusion strategy will be mechanisms that act as, yeah, kind of supporting features really.
Julie: And if I just go back to the book for a minute, one of the things that you do, I suppose, really well in the book, which is why it, it's kind of got broad appeal in my opinion, is you take those themes, so for example, that theme of belonging, and you talk about how we can cultivate the sense. You give some tips, don't you?
Julie: You give some guidance about how we could do that for staff. But then you also add those reflective questions as well, which are quite personal. Um, and so I think it has that dual functionality, doesn't it? It kind of gives that, right, there's some strategies. If you're a leader, these are the sorts of things we can be doing to cultivate belonging for staff.
Julie: But there's some reflection points as well, which I really like. So I do think your book speaks to that kind of dual responsibility that we all have. So you talk about cultivating a sense of belonging for staff in there. There's also that chapter, um, and we've touched on it quite a bit already, on [00:20:00] psychological safety, and that, that primarily sits under the chapter entitled Learning From Failure, doesn't it?
Julie: So I wanna pick up on psychological safety. Again, before I do that, what's been your biggest failure, Laura?
Laura: Oh, what a great question. Okay, let me think so I can answer honestly. Uh, so I think there were two, if I'm honest. So I think the first one was, uh, I- I've kind of already acknowledged was not, was trying to mimic or emulate what I thought a leader should be and just conforming, like parroting other examples of that.
Laura: Because I was just in survival mode, right? This is what I think a leader should be. These people are, are hitting all these performance indicators. That's what success looks like, and just white-knuckling it. Um, and superficially that looked great. Don't get me wrong, I was being promoted, I was getting pay rises and titles, and the school was superficially doing well.
Laura: But [00:21:00] I was miserable. The people around me were miserable for parts of that journey, and I just didn't genuinely feel like I was serving the community well. And I just thought there's gotta be a better way. Mm-hmm. So I think, A, engaging in that in the first place, and B, not coming to that realization sooner, because wow, it was liberating to feel differently afterwards, right?
Laura: Um, and I'm so indebted to the colleagues that supported me on that journey. So I think that has, that has just been incredibly powerful. And that's why when I'm talking about this stuff, I try to really bring that to the forefront- Mm-hmm ... so I'm not appearing to be some sort of omni- omniscient creature, um, with these magical omnipotent powers who's never been fallible.
Laura: I think it's really important to be transparent and share that. And the second one was really not... I, I, in the final headship that I had, I worked with a phenomenal team, Julie, who really supported me in developing this very strong culture of supportive [00:22:00] challenge. And it truly just was at every level and it, it blew me away.
Laura: And to this day, I kind of, I, I constantly refer back to the, that experience, particularly if I'm going into a difficult situation or encountering a challenge for the first time. I try and tap into that experience. And I think what was so impressive about that particular organization or that setting was it didn't matter what standing you had in the community- People were empowered to speak up or share their experiences.
Laura: Um, and so that was a, a real awakening for me. And I think, I don't know, maybe failure's not the right phrase, but I wish I'd ha- engaged in that process much earlier in my career. So maybe that's more of a wish than a failure. But I guess embracing that, learning from that, was a real kind of light bulb moment.
Laura: And, again, I'm really indebted to that community.
Julie: Yeah. And I suppose that, you know, in order to have supportive challenge that doesn't feel like criticism, first of all comes the safety, doesn't it? So what was- Yeah ... kind of being modeled there to you [00:23:00] was, this is a safe space, and this challenge isn't a criticism on who you are or what you're doing, but here's supportive challenge.
Laura: 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It really was.
Julie: And just a little bit more on psychological safety. You know, in that chapter, you know, you talk about how we can cultivate safety, what that looks like, what that feels like, why it's so important in our organizations, and particularly in our schools. I think one of my concerns around psychological safety and, and maybe some, my experience o- of talking to others, is that I think leaders can sometimes have a bit of a blind spot around it.
Julie: And I think maybe this is where some of what we've gotta help kind of break down. They may genuinely believe they've created a culture where people feel safe to speak, but actually what they've created is, like, a compliant culture, people keeping their head downs, going along with things, and that's been seen as a success as opposed to actually pe- you know, it's actually a culture of fear.
Julie: Um, so I suppose, yeah, my concern is, how do leaders [00:24:00] recognize that blind spot? How do we break through that, where we've got organizations where leaders are totally blind to that? I don't know whether I, I expect you to have the answer there. I think that's just kind of something... It's maybe it's what I've heard in conversations, is that people know that it's a good thing, but possibly at the top levels there's, there's a few blind spots going on.
Laura: So I've gotta start by saying this is just, like, the thing I like to talk about all day long really, 'cause I just, I concur. I think, like, it's so well intentioned, right? And we see it kind of, again, named on websites and policies, et cetera. And it's almost like we've named it, we've said the thing, therefore it is.
Laura: But as you say, it becomes a compliance or, unfortunately, another tick box. And of course, it's not because we've described it, it comes into existence. It's reflective in the experience of the people in, in the setting, right? So I think it's about building safeguards. Essentially, when, as you were talking, I was [00:25:00] thinking about when I used to teach the NPQH for TDT and for, for London South Teaching School Hub, again, brilliant organisation.
Laura: And used to start by reestablishing the values, and we'd have to start... One of the values you do talk about was, was holding your views lightly. And we used to have these brilliant discussions with the cohort in acknowledgement that actually we're not great at doing that as leaders. We're not great at being flexible in our thinking all of the time.
Laura: And there's lots of really good reasons why that is. Competing priorities. We talked about accountability measures, et cetera. But there's also a reality to, to just not having good enough intel. So we, yeah, as you say, we create our blind spots. So I suppose it's about how as organisations do we build in safeguards to try and make sure we have good enough quality information coming at us from enough directions, as well as culturally developing that psychological safety.
Laura: So I think one of the ways we can do [00:26:00] that is through celebrating and building teams That are made up of cognitive diversity, right? So how we build teams really matters because whilst we've made progress in this area, as we've already acknowledged today, like schools are notoriously monocultural in their composition at leadership, but also board level as well.
Laura: So again, if, if we're not careful, we become this echo chamber as you say. So to avoid those perils of groupthink, we wanna really embrace our ability to see the world differently. So when we think about cognitive diversity, we're thinking about, of course, different thinking styles, but that can come from a range of different sources.
Laura: And again, when I first started exploring this, I was really guilty of oversimplifying it, 'cause, 'cause I just didn't have that understanding. Mm-hmm. But it can come from such a broad range of sources, whether that's your education background, having a different professional background, having different values, right?
Laura: Or lived experiences. Demographics is important, [00:27:00] slightly different though, but it can also inform our cognitive diversity. And I think what's interesting is the evidence base shows that the highest performing teams, as you say, Julie, like really embrace that supportive challenge. And as a result, they are more equitable, they're more profitable, but they're also better positioned to solve complex problems.
Laura: So if you apply that to a school setting, there's times where it's more useful than others. So if you're just checking everything on the dinner register's correct, do you need to bring together a team of 11 people with different opinions? No, probably not. But if you're looking at, like, your school development plan or your trust strategic plan, wow, what a brilliant opportunity to bring together those different perspectives.
Laura: In the early days when I was looking at this, again, I was really guilty of just saying, "Cognitive diversity, it's a brilliant thing." But of course what we quite often do in schools is bring together teams who think differently without investing in psychological safety, and then we [00:28:00] wonder why it doesn't work out when, of course, all we've done is laid the conditions for conflict.
Laura: And so actually that's why cognitive kind of diversity will lead to improved performance, we've proved it, if it's rooted in a culture of psychological safety. But they are contingent, I think- Yeah ... that's the important thing.
Julie: Yeah. Loving that. Yeah. Can we go on, Laura, to then, and I think it kind of follows this nicely, and, and you mentioned it a bit earlier.
Julie: There's a chapter in the book about distributed leadership, isn't there? It keys into the idea, when you've got a cognitively diverse team and you bring in people with different experience, I think that keys into that idea of distributed leadership, that maybes, uh, you know, they support each other. And there's a line in that chapter, and it's...
Julie: See, I love pulling out lines, and I think my favorite is, "The age of the hero headteacher is over," you said. And I think that needs to go onto a T-shirt. Ever since I met Deborah Rutley, ever since I met Deborah Rutley at a conference, and the [00:29:00] reason why I went over to speak to her, she was wearing a T-shirt that just said, "Flexible working is the answer."
Julie: Um, and I found myself, when I talk to people, I always think, "Ooh, what, what would they have on their T-shirt?" So that one makes the cut for me. Um, but I work with a lot of leaders who talk about those hidden pressures of leadership and the myth of the super leader. So what does distributed leadership actually look like?
Julie: How can we achieve it?
Laura: I think it's a real superpower, you know, to, when you get this right. And, and again, you f- you feel it in settings when you walk in and it's being enacted well. I think that inclusive nature of distributed leadership can really promote a shared sense of responsibility, empowerment, agency, autonomy, all that good stuff, right?
Laura: And it's a real powerful tool when we consider the evidence base shows that schools are lacking in, in diversity. I'm referring to, um, the brilliant Professor Fazey Demie's work there. So the brilliant thing about distributed leadership is it's a really practical tool for school leaders, [00:30:00] right? When you're having to do more with less, because it aligns with the complex, dynamic nature of modern education.
Laura: It recognises, as you've already pointed out, that no single leader possesses all of the answers. And I think there are lots of practical steps that schools can take to harness that knowledge and cultivate it over time. And it's free, so I think this is a really good example of where very small actions can have a really significant impact Back to your earlier point about why, why the book.
Laura: There's a lot of personal and professional frustration for me about how we don't share, share this knowledge or share this understanding or, or have it or talk about it across the sector. So for example, if you want to develop that consultative approach, practical ways you might achieve this in meetings is to do things like rotate the chair.
Laura: There's really great research around how leaders dominate in [00:31:00] meetings. Books like Rebel Ideas catch, capture this really well. So the percentage of time that is taken up by leaders dominating or speaking in meetings. We can't help it, we've just got a lot to say, Julie. But actually, rotating the chair allows, of course, other voices to be heard and manage that.
Laura: And even when you're doing more strategic activities and meetings, asking team members to jot down their initial thoughts or perspectives allows for, again, different types of cognitive thinking styles or personalities to share their views, and then thinking about how that work or perspective is, is distributed.
Laura: And it avoids strong personalities dominating too. And then thinking about encouraging supportive challenge, so ar- articulating willingness to hear alternative points of view in those settings. Again, using that as a mechanism for, uh, distributing leadership. We have all of these mechanisms for distributing leadership that are powerful and I think drivers, levers for [00:32:00] equity as well if we allow them to be and if we place a high premium on them.
Julie: Yeah. I liked what you said in there about, uh, that as well, Laura, this, like, all of these strategies or the majority of what we're talking about are free, aren't they? They're just different ways of thinking about... I love that rotating the chair and, you know, and, and, and again, I think that's what your book kind of certainly in terms of my thinking, you know, there, there's loads of takeaways that, that aren't about doing more.
Julie: It's just a little bit about shifting your thinking, isn't it? And doing it differently and, yeah, I think that, that chapter on distributing leadership, there's a lot to be taken from that. As I've just mentioned, Deborah, I feel like we, we now need to go to another chapter in your book, which is about flexible working, isn't it?
Julie: Um, and I think there's still a lot of barriers around flexible working that are real and sometimes a bit imagined. Um, the case study that's included in your book, there's lots of case studies, lots of other voices that come through in your book. It's the Dixons Academies nine-day fortnight, isn't it?
Julie: [00:33:00] That's used as a bit of a case study that's cited. Can you just share your thoughts around flexible working and- Can we make it work in education?
Laura: Julie, Julie, Julie. I will keep banging this drum. I just... It's wild to me. It's really interesting when I post about this on social media, because it's always one that the algorithm doesn't support and will, it, it will always bomb.
Laura: And again, again, to be totally transparent, I remember being the headteacher, sat in the seat, and my heart sinking when I... And I, and I wanna be really honest about this, when I got a flexible working request come in. Because I used to think, "I don't know how to deal with it," or, "I haven't got the resource.
Laura: I've got these competing priorities." Um, and I've just done a complete 360 on it, um, having been supported, coached, um, and better informed before I lest- left headship about how to manage those requests. And the reality is, if we want a sustainable, happy workforce, [00:34:00] then we're gonna have to move with the times.
Laura: I think al- although lots of school leaders might support flexible working in principle, in practice, the sector's been really slow to realize that, and to realize the potential of alternative working patterns. We actually have a really archaic understanding about what that can mean and how it can be translated on the ground, even though research shows the enormous benefits around reduced workplace stress, improved employee engagement, job satisfaction, reduced sickness absence, et cetera, et cetera.
Laura: So we know actually there can be enormous benefits for employers as well in terms of affordability, cost savings, scalability, et cetera. And it, and it, it's important to acknowledge it's got to work for the employee and the employer, of course. Mm. But I think we just have a lack of imagination about how that can be enacted, and it just hasn't been modeled well.
Laura: And again, there's, with that information, it hasn't been shared well until recently. Though I will say, and I'll touch on this in, in a moment, [00:35:00] the DFE's Flexible Working Ambassadors Match the Schools program was phenomenal. A bit of myth-busting I do wanna do, which is evidence-informed, I cannot stress that enough, evidence-informed, which we don't talk about enough in the sector either, is that employees who are afforded flexibility do report, again, higher life satisfaction.
Laura: That's not gonna be a surprise to anyone, right? What we don't mention enough is that women in particular benefit. And when you look at the complete disconnect between the proportion of women in the workforce versus the lack of women in leadership positions in education, let's examine that correlation, right?
Laura: And then I think it's really important that we acknowledge that contrary to popular belief, stress and work-family conflict is less to do with working long hours and more to do with the degree of control you have over your working pattern, right? This is in brilliant research brought out by Hughes and Parks in 2007.
Laura: So that's [00:36:00] really particularly welcome news for senior leaders and executives who recognize actually the really complex nature of their roles, and people who really wanna protect their wellbeing by exercising some autonomy over how and when they work. 'Cause these are really, you know, competent leaders who've hit their stride in life.
Laura: They're not saying, "We wanna do less." And that's often how flexible working is misinterpreted. "Oh, there's, they've checked out. They wanna do less." And then you've got- You know, the headteacher or the school leader saying, "What are we gonna do? I'm, I'm stressed. I've already got lots to do." And then we hear, we un- unfortunately get competitive about it, when actually these leaders are saying, "I don't wanna do less, and I can manage my stress.
Laura: It's the degree of autonomy and control I need over my working." And often, when those case studies are examined, output doesn't drop off. In fact, often it, productivity increases or is at least sustained. But we, again, are worried about h- how that's enacted. [00:37:00] The really wonderful thing about the DFE's Flexible Working Ambassadors MATs and Schools program was that you were able to be connected with real leaders on the ground who were honest about saying, "Look, I get it.
Laura: You know, I've, I've done this i- myself in my school. I've had a go at it, and I recognise that the challenges for a large urban secondary school are gonna look really different for a small rural school, and that's complex. Let me jump on a call with you. Let me talk it through with you and let- let's problem solve this together."
Laura: And I think there's real value in being able to speak to a colleague and do that. I recognise the, the program has formally finished now, but those leaders are still out there and really happy to have those conversations, and the DFE toolkit is still out there. And ultimately, this issue is not going away, so we, we have to collectively...
Laura: And this is what our sector is brilliant at, right? Collectively using our cognitive diversity and problem solving it. But I think it, [00:38:00] what was really interesting, Julie, is when I wrote the book, people were like, "Oh, so weird there's a chapter on flexible working on it." And I was like, "Is it? 'Cause we're talking about belonging and making sure people feel psychologically safe."
Laura: So maybe this is just about you haven't heard those voices before, but it was really interesting that rea- I got that reaction a lot. So weird that you're talking... Okay. And that's before we talk about protected characteristics. You know, who, who is it that's requesting flexible working? Does the dad who's coming back from paternity leave have the same opportunity?
Laura: Does the person who's got caring responsibilities feel like they've got the same voice to articulate their needs? Does the person who wants to study, does the Female who needs to take time to fulfill a caring responsibility, but doesn't have children feel like she's entitled to the same request. Mm-hmm.
Laura: Mm-hmm. So, you know, there's all sorts of multiple vulnerabilities or just personal delights that people want to explore in the world, but we may be able to [00:39:00] explore without feeling like we're compromising the workforce and, and our intentions around school improvement.
Julie: Um, just, uh, just a couple of things on that one.
Julie: First of all, just total promotion here, but I recorded an episode with Deborah Rutley, and if anybody's interested in anything Laura's just said there, Deborah explores all of those ideas. Um, and she was an F1's working ambassador as well and- Amazing ... she did that work. And I know she worked with a lot of the schools that I was working with, um, and she's been brilliant both in role and post-role.
Julie: And that toolkit that you mentioned as well on the DfE website is really, you know, as you say, even though the funding's finished for the F1s, that toolkit is really quite useful. So, you know, please, if you're interested in any of this, after you've bought Laura's book, obviously, um, go and explore them, explore that episode.
Julie: I've also just recorded an episode with Dr. Alex Thorpe where we talk about women in leadership with some really interesting conversations because I think you're so right. We've, for so long, ignored the demographic that we're working with and, you know, [00:40:00] that potential, that flexibility in the way that we go about work and do work could be hugely beneficial for the individual, but then ultimately for the way that we run our schools.
Julie: So yeah, loads to explore there.
Laura: The only other thing I would just add to that, Julie, is, you know, when we talk about the workf- again, there's been so many studies, research done about how representative the workforce is of the communities we serve. So again, what a brilliant way to open up doors to make the workforce more diverse and more representative of the communities if we are really able to embrace flexible working.
Laura: You know, so I just think there's something else in that as well. There were, there was really interesting, um, case studies and, and research done on, again, it's in the private sector, but in the public sector I'd really like us to get better at learning from the private sector. That's a, that's a podcast in itself.
Laura: Um, really interesting case studies and when they, when companies put out adverts that referred explicitly to flexible working and the increased proportion of applicants they had from, yeah, a range, a better range of diverse backgrounds- [00:41:00] Mm-hmm ... because it was more appealing, right?
Julie: Yeah. And that feeds into that cognitive diversity and that, you know, that mixed lived experience.
Julie: Okay. That's brilliant. I think that leads us nicely on to place-based support, and that's a term I, I'm hearing more and more and I know there's some great kind of collaborations and projects going on. I think it can be incredibly transformative to communities. You evidence, I think, big education trust within the book and also Tees Valley Education.
Julie: Can you tell us just a little bit more about what we're talking about when we talk about place-based support and what you think it can achieve?
Laura: Yeah. I think it's really tricky, isn't it? Because it sounds It sounds simple enough. Provide a really high-quality education, a really caring environment. We should be really supportive, and then we make sure all pupils reach their full potential.
Laura: But in this climate, it's just really hard. School leaders are constantly asked to do with more, more with less. And then any time there's a new initiative [00:42:00] or there's some s- perceived failing in society, that responsibility is pushed back to schools. So I think it's really challenging because the remit of schools has changed so significantly, even since I went into teaching.
Laura: So yes, many leaders are motivated by this moral imperative to serve their community, but a tension exists because, again, we're having to do more with less and think about how that collaboration works a- across professionals and with multi agencies. That said, we know place-based support works, right?
Laura: Mm-hmm. It has an incredible proven track record, even though it's really challenging. So when it comes to some of the benefits, I think really high quality of collaborative decision-making. So we're talking about ... And this is difficult to achieve, but you've mentioned some brilliant examples there with Bi- big, Pig Education and Tees Valley Trust.
Laura: There are lots of others. Genuine co-production and co-design with the [00:43:00] community, so carrying out fantastic listening exercises with your parents, but all your stakeholders. Results in this really genius collaborative decision-making, which means that you're better able to serve the needs of your community, and I'll hopefully be able to share an ex- example of that in a moment.
Laura: Resource sharing, strategic planning, all of that great stuff Leads to, of course, innovative planning and design. Social inclusion, of course, is a, a brilliant by-product of place-based support because your community reach is, uh, so improved. And then emergency preparedness as well. So those communities, or if you're serving a community and who's experiencing a number of complexities or deprivation, if they experience a crisis of some sort, you've got that strong community network or foundation to be able to provide and roll out support quickly.
Laura: Great example of that, of course, was the pandemic recently, and similarly with crisis recovery. But ultimately, meeting day-to-day needs is, is, is really [00:44:00] important too, of course. In terms of the barriers, it can be complicated. We referenced earlier power gradients. And I think all too often we also see schools with the best of intentions doing to their community instead of alongside and with, which is why I started with that idea of co-production and co-design.
Julie: Mm.
Laura: I think Tees Valley, the reason I included Tees Valley is they just do that listening exercise so well. I'm doing some work with Reach Foundation at the moment. They have a really fantastic leadership program, and they, they start by inviting their aspiring head teachers to just do a listening exercise in their community.
Laura: I just love it. Yeah, so rich. Um, so that power and balance, managing expectations and stakeholders, really accurately assessing need because, of course, if, if we're not listening well, how do we know? And of course, the bit that we often miss out with place-based support or any sort of community intervention is that high-quality evaluation.
Laura: To give [00:45:00] a kind of real example, I remember, um, working, leading a setting and joining there as a head actually just after the pandemic. And like a lot of schools at that time- There were families who maybe up until that point had been keeping their head above water, they'd been coping or managing just, but as a result of the pandemic had just fallen off a cliff edge.
Laura: You know, were no longer able to manage. Perhaps they'd lost income or lost their temporary housing, um, things had become more difficult. And so we used that as an opportunity, like lots of settings, to reimagine the, the early help offer. Now, I'd recently joined the school, joined the community, and had been told that the early help offer was strong.
Laura: You could see lots of what appeared to be evidence of that and didn't have any reason to question it. But we, again, sought to reimagine it as a result of the pandemic. What was clear was that we needed to do that listening exercise again. We needed to do that fact-finding bit. Now, there was a bit of resistance initially from the team, 'cause they were like, "Well, w- what do you mean?
Laura: The, the offer's already [00:46:00] strong." And I thought, "Well, let's, let's check, shall we?" So we did this listening exercise, and I suppose it was probably much earlier on in this journey now thinking about the, the ty- types of concepts that were in the book, and I'd already met, um, people like Sean Harris from Tees Valley who were carrying out similar work in the Northeast.
Laura: And when we started the listening exercise, we began to map the early help offer against Maslow's principles. So it's just a very basic con- concept. You know, you've got your safety needs at the bottom working right up to, um, altruism. What we quickly found was that parts of the early help offer were strong, but parts of it, again, we were providing as school leaders what we thought the community needed, but there was this real discrepancy between what we as school leaders imagined the community needed and what their reality was.
Laura: So a great example of that was we were saying, "Okay, well, great, parents can access food bank vouchers." When in fact, when we spoke to the community that were most in need, they said, [00:47:00] "Well, that's all well and good, but the place you're signposting me to is down the road in the next neighborhood. I've got to take two buses.
Laura: I don't have the funds to get to the location that you're signposting me to for the boo- food ba-" And we were like, "Huh." We hadn't, we had no idea. So from that point on, the food bank vouchers were available from our, our children's center on site. And even down to things like we thought we had this great attendance program promoting attendance and being very inclusive about it and da-da-da.
Laura: When we spoke to the mental health teams, they said, "Look at your greatest need here." You've got this m- this, these families in crisis when it comes to their mental health needs, and actually the attendance program you put in place is gonna feel incredibly punitive for those programs. What do we know about mental, their mental health needs?
Laura: It will be cyclical. They'll fall into crisis again. So on repeat, they're gonna experience that punitive measure, and that's why they're disengaging. So we had this very high level of challenge from certain professionals [00:48:00] and family members, and we reimagined then. And through that mapping exercise, we could see where the gaps were in provision were.
Laura: So some of those messages were hard to hear, right? Mm. But wow, did it improve the provision. And if we hadn't started with that listening exercise, it wouldn't have led to that genuine co-production and, and co-design. So I guess when it comes to that place-based support, which again, is about that reimagining and, and lack of places.
Laura: What works for one moment in time is, is not gonna be fit for the future necessarily.
Julie: Yeah. I love that kind of the listen exercise and what an important piece of the jigsaw that is, isn't it? But again, I think that comes from an organization or a leadership team or a, a group of people who create a safe space to ask people to contribute, to be heard in a way that is, again, it's that kind of, like, supportive.
Julie: Tell us, tell us what you need. Tell us what you're thinking. Tell us what works. Tell us what doesn't. It has to be done in the context of safety, hasn't it? Um, so people feel able to, to stand up and speak to that. [00:49:00] Um, yeah, th- th- that's fantastic. Laura, I could talk to you all day. Um, right. Couple more questions just to finish.
Julie: My, my second last question would be, if we recorded this conversation again in 10 years' time, what would you hope had changed in education, and what do you think would genuinely... You know, how will we have moved forward? What do you wanna see?
Laura: Oh, what a lovely question. I'm aspirational that we'll have better learning conversations about what perhaps didn't go well and how we could improve, and we're intentional about those learning conversations.
Laura: You briefly mentioned learning from failure. Mistakes happen, right? We don't always get it right. And it might not be a mistake. It might be that there's a, there's a great, um, kind of concept that Amy Edmondson talks about. She talks about some basic errors, which are kind of mishaps that we, we happen, that we try to, try to avoid.
Laura: Then she talks about intelligent failures, which are- You know, the unavoided consequence of trying something new. Might [00:50:00] be a new approach to the curriculum, et cetera, where actually things aren't gonna go right, but that's okay 'cause you're trying something new. It's unavoidable. It's how you respond to that.
Laura: So I think whether it's a, kind of, screw-up that really should never have happened, and you're thinking about systems, building safeguards, or whether it's, um, a design, something that you're, uh, in a, in an innovative program that you're attempting and you need to be reflective about how you pivot. And whether that's just a small project, a, a personal reflection, or whether it's a school-wide project, or whether it's across the sector and we're talking about policy design and implementation, I hope we have better reflective conversations about, okay, that happened.
Laura: Is apportioning blame useful? Probably not. But can we have a learning conversation about, okay, what's gonna do, what's gonna happen differently next time to improve?
Julie: Yeah. Well, hopefully, Laura, with, with your book, with the incredible work that you are doing amongst other people, kind of leading the way forward and let's hope...
Julie: Uh, let's get together [00:51:00] in 10 years, Laura, and let's kind of- Yes. See where we are against the measures. Right, Laura, one final question. It's a bit left field, so take your time here, um, and don't overthink it. If your career journey had a theme song or a tune, what would it be?
Laura: What an awesome question. Um, if your career journey had a song or a theme tune, what would it be?
Laura: All right, give me a minute. Uh, it'd have to be... You'd have to help me out here, Julie. It'd have to be something joyful. Yep. High energy. Yeah.
Julie: I've gone Bonnie Tyler. I'm feeling that might not be the right route.
Laura: Yeah, all right. I'll do- I'll go with that.
Julie: Yeah, I like that. I like that. I'm
Laura: trying not to lean into Public Enemy, actually.
Laura: That's where I was going.
Julie: You're leaning to Public Enemy. Do you know what? When I when we wrote this question, full disclosure, and so we decided [00:52:00] this was our final question. Um, and we're gonna create a Spotify playlist of everybody- Oh,
Laura: how cool is that?
Julie: Oh, that's a great idea. So if, you know, you can always come back to me on this one if you have another idea, and we can include your song.
Laura: Yeah. All right. Yeah. I'll do that. I d- but I'll- I'll do it straight away so I don't overthink it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Julie: Yeah, don't overthink it 'cause the first thing that came into my mind was Road to Nowhere for me, and I was like, "Well, I don't know what that's..."
Laura: Yeah, no, I just kind of it- no, it would be, it would, it would be more...
Laura: I was leaning to Public Enemy, but I was trying to... 'Cause I just, it's the, it had to, it would have to be something representative of their healthy disregard for rules. Yeah. So I'll, I'll, I'll go with that theme, but I'll ping you something straight away. Yeah, that's brilliant. And it's the coolest question I've ever been asked on a podcast, I'll be honest.
Laura: What a great idea putting them together, though. I love that.
Julie: I love that. Yeah. So we'll include yours, and we'll include it in order so people will know, and we'll put it in the show notes which one you've chosen. All right. Love it. Um, 'cause I appreciate it's a bit of a big ask. Right, Laura, thank you so much.
Julie: Thank you for sharing your personal [00:53:00] story, um, sharing with you, you know, your, um, professional experience and your thoughts and, um, and thank you for producing this fabulous book, and so thank you.
Laura: Oh, I really appreciate it, Julie. What a fab morning we've had. Thank you.
Julie: Thank you for listening to Edwin Talks.
Julie: If you enjoyed this episode, please follow or subscribe to the podcast wherever you're listening. And if you'd like to find out more about the work Edwin are doing with schools and trusts, then follow us on LinkedIn. If you want to discover more about any of the topics discussed in this episode, you can find all the resources and links in the show notes.