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Purchase the You Can Mentor book:
You Can Mentor: How to Impact Your Community, Fulfill the Great Commission, and Break Generational Curses
youcanmentor.com
You Can Mentor: How to Impact Your Community, Fulfill the Great Commission, and Break Generational Curses
youcanmentor.com
Creators and Guests
What is You Can Mentor: A Christian Youth Mentoring Podcast?
You Can Mentor is a network that equips and encourages mentors and mentoring leaders through resources and relationships to love God, love others, and make disciples in their own community. We want to see Christian mentors thrive.
We want to hear from you! Send any mentoring questions to hello@youcanmentor.com, and we'll answer them on our podcast. We want to help you become the best possible mentor you can be. Also, if you are a mentoring organization, church, or non-profit, connect with us to join our mentoring network or to be spotlighted on our show.
Please find out more at www.youcanmentor.com or find us on social media. You will find more resources on our website to help equip and encourage mentors. We have downloadable resources, cohort opportunities, and an opportunity to build relationships with other Christian mentoring leaders.
You can mentor is a podcast about the power of building relationships with kids from hard places in the name of Jesus. Every episode will help you overcome common mentoring obstacles and give you the confidence you need to invest in the lives of others. You can mentor.
Speaker 2:Hey, mentors. Just a reminder about the You Can Mentor book. It's titled You Can Mentor, How to Impact Your Community, Fulfill the Great Commission, and Break Generational Curses. The whole point of this book is to equip and encourage mentors with new tools and ideas on how to make the most of their mentor mentee relationship. If you're a mentor, hey, go pick it up.
Speaker 2:And if you're a mentoring organization, pick some up for all of your mentors. If you would like to order mass copies, like more than 20, send an email to me, zach@youcanmentor.com, and we will get you guys a special price. But go and pick up that book. It's good. You can mentor.
Speaker 3:Welcome back to the You Can Mentor podcast. My name is Joshua Manning. We just wrapped up the why I mentor series last week with coach JT. I'm still on the podcast because I've decided I wanna do a summer takeover. And so today, we've got something really special.
Speaker 3:We've got not just one guest, but we have 3 guests in the house today. That's right. We've got Caitlin Mowdy in the house. Caitlin, what's up?
Speaker 4:What's up? Roger Mowdy. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. A little bit of an update for Caitlin. She is no longer a coach at 4 Runner, but that's because she got promoted. She is now our k through 6 program coordinator. Go.
Speaker 3:Go. Go. Go. Go. Yeah.
Speaker 3:We're super excited, super happy about that. Way to go. We got Beth Winter today. Beth, what's what's going on?
Speaker 5:I'm here.
Speaker 3:You're here. She's like, I have no idea what I'm doing right now.
Speaker 5:Just rolled up.
Speaker 3:Yeah. We haven't seen you in a minute. We miss you.
Speaker 5:Appreciate it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's okay. We'll we'll talk about what's going on here in just a minute. And then Steven Murray is in the house today. We've kinda switched seats.
Speaker 3:The last time we were on a podcast together, I was being interviewed by Steven. This time, I'm hosting and Steven is a guest. Steven, how the heck are you?
Speaker 6:The student has become the teacher.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's how you are, the student?
Speaker 6:Proud of you. Proud of you, Josh. I am just proud.
Speaker 3:Wow. I appreciate that.
Speaker 5:That's sweet.
Speaker 3:I appreciate that.
Speaker 5:I'm proud of you, Caitlin.
Speaker 4:Thanks, bud.
Speaker 3:So these
Speaker 6:Some would say we are special guests.
Speaker 3:We are special guests. Well, they're you are special guests. I'm I'm the host. I'm not a guest. But you all are special guests.
Speaker 3:The reason we have 3 people on the podcast or guest appearing on the podcast today is because Caitlin and I kinda talked about it in her episode of Why I Mentor. Beth mentored Caitlin for a season. We all know that Steven mentored me for a season even though it wasn't really officially a mentor mentor mentee relationship. But he I very much viewed him as a mentor in that 1st year of being in Texas. So we thought it would be just a really cool idea to get all of us together since we all work at 4 Runner together.
Speaker 3:It would be a really cool idea to just get the mentors and their mentees who mentor alongside them all on the podcast together just to talk about mentoring and talk about how we mentor in our approach and, like, our our perspectives of mentoring just because we all have very different very different backgrounds. So that is why we got everybody here today. So super thankful you guys are here. Beth, Steven, we haven't seen you in a minute. Steven, you I'm
Speaker 6:sure this isn't just because you have 4 microphones and you just want you want them all to be used.
Speaker 3:Oh, next week's episode is even bigger than this one.
Speaker 5:What?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. We have 4 microphones here. Yes. But next week, we're gonna have 7 people on the podcast.
Speaker 3:So stay tuned for that. That'll be great. But, no, I I have you here because I want you here. So, Steven, the last time we saw you, you recorded an episode about a month or 2 ago about pornography in the church and and
Speaker 6:Yeah. Zach gave me some text messages after that one.
Speaker 3:Didn't like that?
Speaker 6:He was just like, you would.
Speaker 3:I think it's an important conversation to be having.
Speaker 6:Every time every time we talk, he's like, oh, what's the latest book on genocide you've been reading recently? Because I just I have interesting interests. So
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 6:And it's called A Problem from Hell, by the way.
Speaker 5:Pornography or genocide?
Speaker 6:Genocide.
Speaker 5:Both, but yeah.
Speaker 6:It's it's a it's a book writ written by a woman. I think her name is Samantha Power, and it's a very compelling read. It's over 300 pages, which tells you everything you need to know.
Speaker 3:So did Zack know you were reading this book, or did he just pick a random topic that happened to coincide with a book that you were reading?
Speaker 6:I care about the Kurds, and the Kurds were attacked by Saddam Hussein. You might have heard of him. Check it out in the show notes.
Speaker 3:I'm not gonna put that in the show notes. What what would I put in the show notes on that?
Speaker 6:Zach, I guess, elaborates upon my love for the Kurds to think that I care about every genocide that's ever occurred, which I do. It's kind of a big deal.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Because we're Christ followers, and we're called to love each other. So
Speaker 6:Even our enemies.
Speaker 3:Even our enemies. So genocide would go directly against that. That is not at all where I thought this podcast was going. This is
Speaker 5:not how I thought this would go. You can mentor.
Speaker 6:Thanks, Caitlin.
Speaker 3:Anyway, where I was going with that was, Beth and Steven, why don't you just give us a little bit of a life update, where you've been, what's what's going on, why haven't we seen you in a while, that kinda thing?
Speaker 6:Well, I think I shared this with Zach. He put us in charge of 4 hundred mentoring, and we've had to focus on figuring out our jobs. He's definitely given a lot of encouragement and belief, and I told Zach that rather than make podcasts, I need to just listen to podcasts and figure out how to be the leader the 4 100 needs me to be. So yeah. Mhmm.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Steven's my boss, and he just doesn't let me do anything outside of work because he just is, like, work, work, work.
Speaker 3:He's, like, very task
Speaker 5:oriented. Week, nothing else.
Speaker 3:A 100 hours a week, Steven.
Speaker 6:You know, I think this is a good moment to say if you've heard the song from Rihanna, she says, work, work, work, work, work, work. And that's 6 works. Yeah. And I take that to mean Rihanna's down with the Sabbath. And that's all I'll say about that.
Speaker 4:I don't know how you got there.
Speaker 3:I don't either, but only Steven would. And I've known Steven for almost 5 years now, and he still comes up with things out of left field. I'm just not ready for.
Speaker 6:I did play left field, which is
Speaker 3:That must be it. And that
Speaker 6:was right field. Left field gets action because right handers will hit to the left field. Nobody hits to the right field. That's where I played.
Speaker 3:Is that why you were playing right field?
Speaker 6:Exactly.
Speaker 3:I don't
Speaker 5:even know what sport we're talking about right now.
Speaker 6:Baseball.
Speaker 3:Wimbledon.
Speaker 5:There we go.
Speaker 3:Yes. We're talking about Wimbledon.
Speaker 6:But as I said before, Josh, very glad to be here. Glad to see what you've been doing with the podcast. Glad that you've been taking all of my employees away from their jobs
Speaker 3:For the no.
Speaker 6:To contribute to this podcast.
Speaker 3:Don't don't put that on me. That did not happen at all. I scheduled all of these outside of forerunner hours.
Speaker 5:Yeah. How dare you?
Speaker 6:You're you're a good man, Josh.
Speaker 3:In fact, most of them got recorded after you fired all of us.
Speaker 5:Not fired. She's not looking at my friend. Oh, lord.
Speaker 3:Terminated.
Speaker 5:Oh, man.
Speaker 3:Anyway, so Beth just visited all the podcast because she just works all day. That's that's really what it is.
Speaker 6:And jolly.
Speaker 5:I mean, to be honest, like, I mean well, on a scale of, like, 1 to 10, how honest do you want me to
Speaker 3:be, Josh?
Speaker 5:Worst. 1 of the worst years of my life. So I have not been on the podcast because, truly, I don't have capacity. So it's
Speaker 3:That's fair.
Speaker 5:My my job. I am a good family member, good friend, and that's all I got time for.
Speaker 3:That's fair. I mean, every once in a while, you gotta figure out where those limits are. Right?
Speaker 5:You know? For sure.
Speaker 3:What you have the capacity for. So
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I get that. Alright. Well, thanks for the update update. Beth.
Speaker 6:Yeah. Go you.
Speaker 5:You know? Yeah. When when else can you be honest, except except when there's a mic in your face and you're being recorded.
Speaker 3:Well, as
Speaker 4:a like a good time.
Speaker 6:As a boundaryless person other than my skin.
Speaker 5:Don't start the stage. You.
Speaker 6:I respect that.
Speaker 3:Well, I was also going to just point out that, like, at foreigner, we're teaching the boys to have integrity. So part of integrity is honesty, and, you know, why not
Speaker 6:be Go, Josh.
Speaker 3:Why not be honest? Right?
Speaker 5:And our mentors need to be self aware of when they are tapped out of capacity
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 5:And it's time to take a step back.
Speaker 3:Exactly. Because that happens. Right? There are there are days where you're just like, I I just don't have the capacity to do that. And I think self awareness is one of the most important things to have as a mentor and just knowing kinda what your limits are and what you can invest because, you know, if you cross that I know from my own experience just being a coach and and pouring into into the kids that the days where I'm dealing with something emotionally or I haven't been dealing with something that needs to those those kinds of days are the days where I tend to have maybe a shorter temper or I'm a little bit more stern and strict and, like, not putting up with anything that day.
Speaker 3:And those days actually end up being the days that do more damage than good in program just because I'm not ex or I'm not exhibiting and experiencing joy in the moment. I'm experiencing something else, and that kinda that just ends up rubbing off onto the students, onto JT, that kinda thing. And those are just not good days of program. So all all of that is to say, like, it it is. It truly is important to know what your capacity is so that you can be
Speaker 6:This is so good.
Speaker 3:Be intentional in in your mentoring relationship because your mentee deserves I mean, at the same time, like, be honest with your mentee. Show them, you know, like, hey. Like, I'm I'm not having a good day to day, but this is what I'm doing to deal with it. Right? Like, that ends up mentoring them in a different way.
Speaker 3:But at the same time, it's like if you are, like, not feeling it that day and you're going in just pretending like everything is is fine, then your mentee's not gonna get anything out of that. You're not gonna get anything out of that, and everybody's gonna leave frustrated.
Speaker 6:I love that we're talking about integrity in this way Because everybody talks about integrity. It's like doing the thing that is right when nobody's watching.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:But what you're talking about is there's a congruence between my inner life and my outer life. And I am letting people in to something. I'm being vulnerable and honest. Mhmm. And that that is just as much it of doing the right thing when no one's watching and sharing the secrets of the heart, bringing what's in the darkness into the light.
Speaker 6:And that's the only way we're gonna actually deal with what we're going through is if we're able to make that congruence. And I think that's why David wrote a bunch of Psalms about asking God to stone his enemies' children and all that stuff. Hey, it's in the Bible.
Speaker 5:I was tracking till just then. And then
Speaker 6:The imprecatory Psalms are David having integrity of sharing with the Lord what's in his heart. And now he's taking it to the Lord, not to his enemies, which is great because vengeance is the Lord's, but he's living an integrous life because he's being he's being vulnerable with what he actually thinks.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 6:And now if you're going into program, you have a role, a responsibility, a job.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 6:And Noah said this today at the office. He said, Steven, you know what I like about you? You just you just every intrusive thought, you just let it rip. And I don't I don't recommend we let every intrusive thought rip, that we we may wanna take our thoughts captive
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:But at the same time, question whether we're we're living with integrity. If we're thinking and we're saying things that we don't actually believe or feel or know as true.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's that's so good.
Speaker 6:I dropped this mic, but it's on a mic stand.
Speaker 3:And it's super expensive that it's the church's, so please don't. I mean, if you wanna buy a $300 mic, go for it. But yeah. So yeah. Man, I just I love this conversation already and and talking about integrity because I know with other coaches in their Why I Mentor episodes, we've talked about, like, responsibility or humility or something like that.
Speaker 3:But I don't think any of us has ever really talked about integrity. And especially through this lens of, like, living a life of integrity includes not just being honest in the moment and doing what you say you're gonna do, but also this idea of, like, acknowledging what's going on in your heart and then bringing that to the Lord, like, that's living a life of integrity because you're, like, in that in that moment, what you're doing is you're choosing to process those things with the one who can actually do anything about it.
Speaker 6:I feel like this couch is kinda carrying the conversation right now. I don't know if you guys
Speaker 4:Just soaking in the wisdom.
Speaker 3:Caitlin's like, we're just we're just following the leader at this point.
Speaker 6:Oh, man.
Speaker 5:I was thinking about, like, when I was in Lubbock, I had a mentor, and I I watched him go through a knee replacement surgery. And that surgery is brutal. Like
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 5:It is brutal. And I was there, like, when he got out of the surgery, I was at the hospital, saw him, like, right afterwards. It was rough. And then I was, like, helping his wife prepare meals at their house, and I was, like, there the first day that the PT came. The physical therapist came to his house and brought, like, this, like I don't know how to describe it.
Speaker 5:It's like a thing that moves your knee because you have to, like, train your knee how to bend again afterwards. And it's not, like, months later. It's, like, 3 days later, you're having to do this, and so it's excruciatingly painful. And this mentor of mine is, like, a spiritual, like, giant to me. Like, I've never seen him angry.
Speaker 5:I've never seen him discouraged, anything like that. But in that moment, he looked so human to me because, like, he was in tears and he was so angry because of how much pain he was in. And, like, I remember seeing that, like, as a mentee and being kinda shook for a minute of, like, just watching this this man that I have so much respect for and, like, to me is, like, untouchable in the spiritual realm of discouragement, is facing so much pain and discouragement himself that he just does I don't even recognize him in this moment. And, like, we talked about that later. And, like, looking back now in my own life, I've gone through so much physical pain and, like, sickness with my health story that I just am so grateful looking back now that I had an example of someone who was was vulnerable in that moment.
Speaker 5:And and he didn't put on a face when I came over and sat in the living room and was watching all of this play out. Like, he just continued to live his life and let me sit there and observe it. And so I saw him go through this process. A couple years later, I saw him after his wife died of cancer, like, walk through that journey and just him going through just an ex just incredible amount of grief and then returning to the Lord and returning to ministry after having to take some time away. And so, yeah, like, I just as we were talking about, like, integrity and just, like, being honest about where you're at and not I don't know.
Speaker 5:I just hear, like, don't fake it because you're trying to put on an example of, like, how to be a good mentor. Like, your mentee needs to see you go through the real life because they're going through real life, and they're gonna experience real life. And they don't need, like, a cleaned up copy to model. They need somebody that they can say, I I saw somebody go through this. It was really hard.
Speaker 5:It was really scary. It was really messy, but they came through, so I can too.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, and I think about that even just in what you were saying is, like, the cleaned up mentor image. I mean, at that point, it's like you're not really doing your mentee any favors at that point because you're not showing them the the negative side of life and the the human side of life. Right? We live in a fallen world.
Speaker 3:Like, so much of media, so much of the things they're consuming are painting this picture of, like, oh, it's a glamorous life if you do this, this, and this, which are all worldly things. Like, you know, this is how you get ahead. But especially with social media, because all of our all of our kids are on social media. At least in junior high, they are. I don't I'd hope a kindergartner is not on on social media.
Speaker 5:But They are.
Speaker 3:Well, okay. Even then, it's like they're all on social media, which is so curated. Right? It's it's specifically like, this is the side of me that I want you to see. Right?
Speaker 3:If we do that in our mentoring relationships, then just like you said, they can't they're not learning how to deal with the negative side of life because things happen and things are always happening. And it looks different based off of your age, but at the same time, it's like, you know, the junior high students are 13, 14 years old, and they're dealing with things that I dealt with when I was 13, 14 years old and and continuing to deal with in some weird way as a 28, 29 year old.
Speaker 5:Amen.
Speaker 3:Right?
Speaker 5:Does that ever end?
Speaker 3:I hope so. I really hope so. But it's like I'm dealing with those things now in maybe not exactly the same way, but, like, the same themes are coming up. And if we're not if we're not showing them how we're dealing with them, then how can they learn to to do that and hopefully deal with that sooner than we did? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right? So that they don't have to live a life of rejection or loneliness or depression or whatever. Right?
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 3:So,
Speaker 5:yeah. Yep.
Speaker 3:I love that. I love this conversation so far. It's not at all any of the questions that I had sent. So those are my favorite episodes. Josh.
Speaker 6:I did this for a 100 and something episodes. It never is.
Speaker 3:That's probably a good thing.
Speaker 6:Caitlin, I have I have a story with Caitlin. Caitlin wrote me a very endearing letter at the end of this last semester. And I decided that when I picked up my mentee to hang out, I was I took a moment to read it, and it made me weep. I was in shambles, thanks to you, Caitlin. And Logan got in my truck and saw a broken man.
Speaker 6:And and he was like, what's wrong with you? And I said I I said, someone wrote me a note. He was like, and they made you cry? And I I don't even remember what I said. I just said, it was coach Caitlin.
Speaker 6:And I don't even know what he said to you if he said anything.
Speaker 4:He did. He told me, you wrote coach Steven something, and he cried.
Speaker 6:He probably still doesn't know, like like, I don't know, the context. Like, maybe if you had
Speaker 5:probably like, wow. She must have said something so mean.
Speaker 6:You're ugly, and I hate you.
Speaker 5:Your worst fear?
Speaker 6:Scott the painter, everybody. That is my worst fear Mhmm. For sure. Not that everybody dies and leaves like you can.
Speaker 4:Hate is the same. Everyone hates me too. Hate, leave, die. It's all in the same boat. Wow.
Speaker 3:Okay. Let's get this back on track.
Speaker 5:You rebuke that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Alright. So I guess I guess that question or, like, this topic of integrity in mentoring, I guess, then begs the question specifically for us and and our program, like the after school program, what does integrity like, what does this version of having integrity look like in the after school program or maybe in Steven and Beth? Like, the mentoring relationships that you are in or have been in, you know, what is what does that look like? Because I know with the after school program, we a lot of the time, at least, I have to I have to walk this very fine line between, like, addressing things that they're going through without getting too personal into my life.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And so it's like, how do how do we how do we model this, like, this idea of like, hey. I'm just not having a good day without getting too personal into that, which for a 1 on 1 mentoring relationship, that obviously looks different. But for a group mentoring situation after school program where, you know, we're pouring into 12, 14, 20, 30, 40, however many kids in an after school program that is endorsed by the school district, like, we do have those boundaries. So what does that look like?
Speaker 4:I think it's you have to be super honest with them. Because I remember a lot of times, if my day was not the best and then they also were not listening, I would something that helped was me telling them, like, I literally can't even be up here and teach you what I need to teach you if you're gonna choose not listen. So being honest and not not making them think that that you can do all of it without them playing some part in it as well. But like, oh, I'm not I don't have everything perfect, and I'm not just this great strong thing.
Speaker 5:Like, I actually need your cooperation Yeah. Because this is hard for me too. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And I need your help. Like, it's a partnership, not just me telling you one specific thing or me trying to boss you around. Yeah.
Speaker 5:I didn't think of the after school program, but I know recently I've been hanging out with my niece a lot who's a 2 year old. And I there was one night I was babysitting her, and I just had the worst day. And so I was sitting at the table and I was feeding her dinner, and it just, like, hit me all of a sudden how bad of a day I had. And I started like, there was tears, like, coming down. And she looked at me and she was like, what happened?
Speaker 5:And she was just, like, so concerned. And I was like, oh, I should, like, I should, like, not let her see this because I Mhmm. Like, I don't want her to worry about me. But I was like, you know, instead, like, what a great moment to just be like, I'm just feeling sad. Like, I'm just feeling sad today.
Speaker 5:I had a hard day. And so that's what I told her, and she was just like like, reached out and, like, put her hand on my shoulder. I wasn't crying. I just, I have a lot of sinuses. I do love her, but I'm not emotional right now.
Speaker 5:But, yeah, she just, like, reached out
Speaker 3:and put her hand on
Speaker 5:my shoulder, and she's like, it's okay. It's okay, honey. She loves saying honey. It's really cute. But,
Speaker 6:but yeah.
Speaker 5:So sometimes I don't know. I think it's okay to just, like, be honest of I'm just having a hard day, like, honestly. And so I'm here for you. I wanna be here. Don't worry about it.
Speaker 5:But, like, yeah, I'm having a hard day. That's where I'm at.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think I've seen myself do something similar in the junior high where, you know, I was going in, I was having a hard day or or whatever. And, like, we just we told the boys at the very beginning of program, you know, after that first 20 minutes when we sit down to do our lesson, I was just like, y'all, it's April. You know the expectations. I know you know the expectations because you literally just told me what the expectations are.
Speaker 3:I don't have the emotional bandwidth to be patient. So, like, I need your help with this. And they've like, they were leaders with each other, and they were holding each other accountable instead of me having to do that. Right? So I think it was just, like, the idea of just by being honest and just saying, like, look, guys.
Speaker 3:I'm I'm not feeling it today. Just like you guys don't feel it on days and you wanna go sit by yourself. Like, I can't do that because I have a job to do, but I'm gonna get through this as best I can. I just need your help. Right?
Speaker 3:You know, kind of similar to what Caitlin was saying there.
Speaker 5:I know, like, this last year, there's a time frame when I was recently diagnosed with a new health issue called trigeminal neuralgia. Excruciatingly painful. And I was having to take a lot more time off of work, and I don't even think you were there this day, Steven, actually. You weren't in the you weren't in this meeting, but I had to, like, address our leadership team and just tell them, like, what was going on and that I would kind of be taken just more working from home more, like, not not around as much. And that was really hard for me to do because I don't like admitting weakness.
Speaker 5:And so having to be like, I literally can't do this. I would have to take some time off. It was really hard, and I felt like I was failing my team by not being, like, the strong person who, like, oh, like, like, everything's crazy. But don't worry. Yeah.
Speaker 5:I can I can help you? I can take on. I could be here all night. I I couldn't do that anymore, and so that was hard to face that boundary. But afterwards, like, if have you ever been, like, vulnerable and then you wanna, like, throw up because you're like, oh, that was, oh, that was too much.
Speaker 5:I didn't like that. That's how I felt. But one of our team members came up to me, and she was like, that, like, meant a lot to me that you're able to do that. Because, like, if if you, who's like a director in this organization, is allowed to admit that you are human and that there are seasons when you can you can't do as much, then that, like, gives everybody else in the room the ability to do that as well and to admit their humanness and their weakness. So that was a lesson I learned.
Speaker 5:Wish you were at that meeting, Steven. It was a great one.
Speaker 6:What what was I doing?
Speaker 5:I honestly don't know.
Speaker 6:It's probably fundraising.
Speaker 5:I was like, how are they gonna capture this in the minutes? Beth cried a lot. Oh, this was Cher.
Speaker 3:Things were sad.
Speaker 6:We'll just need to bring Riley to those meetings.
Speaker 5:Yes. It's okay, honey.
Speaker 3:Steven, what about you? How does how does this idea of integrity what does that look like in your mentoring relationships or leading a a nonprofit mentoring organization or leading a family or all of the above?
Speaker 6:What's going on over there?
Speaker 4:Enjoy the Lord.
Speaker 5:I was just trying to take a drink of water to the side of the mic, so it wasn't heard, but then you acknowledged it. So now we're acknowledging
Speaker 3:it. Steven, you have, like, 5 minutes to ponder this question.
Speaker 5:He's like, move on. Nice.
Speaker 6:List I was listening. Josh. Mhmm. I wasn't thinking about myself. No.
Speaker 6:There is an aspect of an adult's responsibility to come into the room with emotional maturity
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:And not not depend or lean on a kid for the support that we need, while at the same time, it there is a developmental aspect of the things that we're trying to do that modeling it for them. I mean, I think my mentee, I would love to hear him say, man, I'm just I just had it wasn't a great day at school. It wasn't like, I didn't get my way at home this morning. And if I could get that information on the front end rather than contextually within his actions, just recognize, hey, it seems like you went through a lot today or that you're just toasted, not on drugs, but, like, from the day. Depending on the mentee.
Speaker 5:Oh, no.
Speaker 4:Not forerunners mentors.
Speaker 6:Never. I'm I I think in a way, what what we attempt to do in asking questions is we're kind of knocking on the door, helping them toward that integrity of, hey, what's going on? What happened what happened today? What are you going through? And having that conversation in a restorative tone and not a punitive tone.
Speaker 6:Mhmm. Because yeah. And I think that's how we can model this. We are forthright, forthcoming in our experience from the day In in a in a respectful way, I I think I think you can withhold some detail while also being real. Right.
Speaker 6:So my my conversations with a high school student would probably be different than an elementary student. I would tell you straight up
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 6:What I'm going through. Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Like, our our relationship, our men quote, unquote mentoring mentee relationship looked far different than, you know, your relationship with what grade is he in? Like
Speaker 6:5th grade.
Speaker 3:5th grade? Yeah. 5th grade. Like Yeah. Even just developmentally, like, he's not gonna have the ability to process, like, the nuance behind whatever that thing is that you're dealing with.
Speaker 3:Maybe you will, maybe you won't, but, you know, whereas, like, me having met you when I was 24 and had already been going through some some things and experiencing life on my own, like, you know, I have a better capacity to understand, like, hey, I'm not having a great day because Katie and I got in a fight, and then Ben was doing this, and Maren was just not sleeping well last night, and yada yada yada. Like, because I'm sure that never happens. Never. But it's like, you know, even though I can't necessarily, I guess, sympathize, is that the right word, sympathize with that in the sense that I'm not married. I don't have my own kids.
Speaker 3:I haven't gone through that. I can definitely empathize in just being able to understand, like, okay. Wow. This has this has been a lot for him. What does he need from me?
Speaker 3:How can I how can I, even as a mentee, support Steven and affirm him and just, you know, show him that somebody is in his corner? Which for for 2 adults, that's that's a totally fine thing to do, I think. Obviously, you don't wanna, you know, what you don't wanna do that with a kid. Like you were saying, we don't want to lean on our mentees to fill that emotional need. Right?
Speaker 3:We need to we need to find that elsewhere. And, ideally, we're finding that in the Lord. Right? Mhmm. So
Speaker 6:A a practice of recent this has come up a few times in the last 6 months. Something Logan says makes me think of an answer where I ask myself the question, can he take this answer? Mhmm. Or or is it is it too much? And and I just ask for permission.
Speaker 6:And I I just I say, can I be honest with you?
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:And and it's mainly, I'm the most encouraging, positive person. But when I when I get a response or he's acting in a certain way and there's a moment where I I maybe have a knee jerk response that it's probably more serious than than lighthearted or positive. I always ask for permission. Can I be honest with you? It's the same thing in a in a working relationship.
Speaker 6:Can I give you some feedback? Which I probably never do, Beth. I'm sorry.
Speaker 5:Can you?
Speaker 3:Does this say he never gives you feedback, or is this he never asks permission to give you feedback?
Speaker 5:But We'll leave that there.
Speaker 3:I found
Speaker 6:can I be honest with you? Logan knows that if he says yes, he's gonna know what I really feel and not just the the the answer that, I don't know, that's polished or scripted, but he's just gonna get the raw the raw take. And I I've found that it's helpful. It didn't help me in the survey. We have a survey at forerunner, and it asked the questions it asked the question, did you have fun with your mentee your mentor?
Speaker 6:And we had a 97% yes. My mentee was the only one that did not answer in the affirmative.
Speaker 4:I did his interview. Oh. And touch goop. It was it was a hard interview. Not it was just because of the day, not because of your mentoring
Speaker 3:Oh.
Speaker 4:That was done. It was pulling answers out. So it was just not the day for it. It was not just the day
Speaker 6:for it. What did it say that I saw? It said, sometimes we have fun. Sometimes it's serious.
Speaker 5:I think that's great. Yeah. That's great feedback.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, I feel like that there's maybe nothing necessarily wrong with that. Like
Speaker 4:If it wasn't serious, he wouldn't grow.
Speaker 3:If it
Speaker 4:was just
Speaker 3:fun, he
Speaker 4:wouldn't grow. Yeah.
Speaker 6:I know. That's what I gotta send to the Reece Jones Foundation. There was only one mentee that didn't have mine.
Speaker 5:And it was mine.
Speaker 3:It was mine. Whoops. That's okay. I I have to when we do those surveys, some of the junior high kids have discovered sarcasm. So we have to not filter, but, like, we have to remind them that this does actually matter and we need your actual honest answer, not
Speaker 5:That's fair.
Speaker 3:Sarcasm. Because some of our students in the junior high would definitely be like, no. I don't have fun at all ever, which when they say it, like, you can hear the sarcasm. But when you write that down
Speaker 5:tracking smiles or something. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 5:Yeah. You know? We need a new metric.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I tell them I know that's not true.
Speaker 5:I've heard you laugh 37 times now. I'm not not not not not not
Speaker 3:not not not not not not not not
Speaker 4:not not not not. What is the math not not? Sixty two smiles.
Speaker 3:And 8 hugs.
Speaker 6:There is something. So this will probably relate to you, Josh, because you were at SMU.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 6:At at SMU, the theater program, from my experience, a lot of students will make their own they'll write their own play.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's called SMUST, SMU Student Theater.
Speaker 6:And I
Speaker 5:like that.
Speaker 6:Usually Nobody there does. Usually, these plays, from my experience, were very raw emotion. Like, you could tell that whoever wrote the play, they were thinking deeply about their worldview, how they've perceived the world, trauma that they've experienced, and they're writing a play to kinda display their experience and see what the response is. Will I be received? Will I be understood?
Speaker 3:Will I
Speaker 6:be known? And I always left those feeling like I wonder if that person ever expressed that feeling and the courage it took to make it known. But not only make it known, but also have it be subjected to other people's opinion. In in a way, expressing it, putting words to it, bones to it, a play to it allows you to even process your own Yeah. Thoughts.
Speaker 6:Is what I feel about this situation the truth? And in in a way, these kinda plays, if if people receive it, it's true. If people don't receive it, maybe it's wrong or, I'm off. And I don't think that's necessarily the right way to go. But I definitely think that that that's a part of integrity is if I can be real with my thoughts of I I can express how I truly feel, then I'm I'm subjecting it to a a community of other people that may help me understand, am I feeling the right way about this?
Speaker 6:Zach would always talk about responding to a 5¢ problem with a $500 response. Yeah. And and sometimes, the act of of having that reaction can lead to a great conversation of, hey, what I think's going on inside of you doesn't doesn't relate accurately to what you've experienced
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 6:In both a positive and negative way. Because I think if you if you live in an environment of difficulty, trauma, and pain, you might become desensitized to where how you feel about your situation doesn't really reflect what you should be feeling
Speaker 3:Mhmm. If you
Speaker 6:were in in a healthy environment, in healthy relationships. And so that that exchange can be really helpful in a mental relationship.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I think part of that also can include just, like, showing your mentee how to process those emotions. Like, you were talking about the students writing their own plays, and that might be cathartic for them even in almost in a sense of it's like journaling. It's just journaling that ends up getting performed. But, like, I know for me, processing a lot of my own pain in my life, which there is far more than I care to admit, both, you know, stuff that's been happening in, you know, in recent events, but also, like, the the trauma of my past, I think, like, those are the things that I've found journaling to be the most helpful one of the most helpful things for me where actually, this this just happened, like, yesterday.
Speaker 3:1 of my roommates one of my new roommates, because I just moved, like, I was out for a walk last night at, like, 11:30 at night, and he sent me a text. He's like, hey. I noticed you seemed a little off. Are you okay? And I was just like, no.
Speaker 3:I'm not. And he's like, anything you wanna talk about? I was like, if I had even the slightest idea of what to talk about, then maybe. But right now, I'm still trying to figure out what exactly like, I'm still trying to put into language the things that I'm feeling right now. So I don't think that's gonna be very fruitful right now.
Speaker 3:I appreciate your offer. I just don't think I can do that. My plan is to you know, I'm out on a walk right now. My plan is to to finish this walk, and then I'm gonna come home and I'm I'm gonna journal. Right?
Speaker 3:And that works really, really well for me because I have learned to give myself permission to write whatever in my journal without any judgment, without any fear, without anything because I'm the only one who's gonna see it unless I specifically choose to let somebody else into that. And so that's what I did is I I came home. After I finished the walk, I came home and I started journaling. And, like, I I went back and read it this morning, and it was, like, really, really dark. Like, I was not in a great headspace and ended up sending it this morning to my best friend in Utah and another guy in the in our church who I'm really, really close with just because I was like, guys, this is where I'm at.
Speaker 3:This is I I don't know what to do with this, but this is where I'm at. So
Speaker 6:Bro, what you're describing is Henri Nouwen. Like, this is like a you're batting a 1,000 in Henri Nouwen's approach to spiritual direction. Being honest, sharing your journal with people that you trust to help you in that journey of articulation
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:Of not only where you're at, but where you want to be. And so yeah. Have you read Henri Nouwen before?
Speaker 3:I actually have no idea who you're talking about.
Speaker 6:Beth Beth is is kind of the The Henri Nouwen expert. She made our our entire staff
Speaker 5:one book, y'all. One book.
Speaker 3:Well, if it's one more than Steven, then you're automatically the expert.
Speaker 6:I I would say yes. I I agree with this practice, especially what you said at the end of allowing others into that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 6:So
Speaker 5:My mentor in Lubbock would always ask us, like, whether it was a 1 on 1, like, coaching conversation or, like, a bible study because he was also my pastor. He would read something or we would talk about something and would say, what does that do to you? And that was always an interesting question because no one ever asked me that before.
Speaker 3:What does that do to you?
Speaker 5:What does that do to you? And so you would get some really interesting responses because, you know, we'd be reading passages about God being father. And so if you ask somebody, what does this passage in the Bible do to you when you're reading about, like, God being a father? Like, you're we've I mean, heard people experience or express for the first time, like, that does not compute to me. Like, that doesn't that angers me.
Speaker 5:I feel angry when I read this, you know. And so that question is something I always think of whenever somebody is clearly something's going on that doesn't fully make sense in the scenario. And it's like, what did what did that do to you just now? Like, something's going on. So what did that experience what did that thing that person just said, what did that do to you?
Speaker 5:Which has been that's been a helpful question. I keep in my toolbox.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I can I'm I'm thinking of, like, so many different scenarios in the junior high this past year where that could have either brought insight or diffused a situation or something like that, which, you know, having having been a coach for 2 years, like, I've I've picked up on a quite a few tools, especially, you know, that 1st year where it was a lot of trial and error. And thank the lord that I was just downstairs and not at the junior high. Because if I had been on my own at the junior high, that 1st year would have been very, very different. But even in this one, I'm like, I'm sitting there going through, well, if I had asked that question
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 3:In this scenario or that scenario or when this kid did this or this, that, or the other thing, like, now, one, I'm getting a better understanding of this student's worldview and how they're processing the world and how they're perceiving things. But 2, now it's also forcing them to acknowledge Yeah. Their own processing and how they how they view things and and what impact this person has had and this, that, and the other thing. So that one, yeah, that one's going in my back pocket. Like, I love that.
Speaker 3:That's what what did that do to you? That's good.
Speaker 4:I think that actually points to, like, what makes a good mentor is they don't just let you stay wherever you're at, whether it's, oh, I'm putting out a persona of being perfect or I'm just an angry guy or whatever. Like, they will ask you the questions of your question, what did that do to you? Or they'll tell you straight up. Because I know you have told me. I told we had a conversation while ago and I was like, I don't wanna be bold.
Speaker 4:I don't wanna, like, speak, you know. And you're like, you're gonna have to be bold. If this is if what you're telling me you want is what you want, you're going to have to. And so, yeah, I just think a good mentor won't let you just sit in the, I don't want to, I can't, or I don't I don't feel comfortable in this. It almost pulls you into an uncomfortable place.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Almost like the one of the jobs of a mentor is to push you outside of your comfort zone.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Like exhort, admonish.
Speaker 5:It's a dance.
Speaker 6:It's a dance for sure. I I've run into a few times with with my mentee, me asking him too many questions. He'll he'll say, coach Steven, he's he calls me Murphy. He said, Murphy, you've asked me too many questions. And it and when he says that, I know it's too many questions.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:Even personally, I'm like, I think I'm probing. I'm I'm
Speaker 5:digging. I did that to you this morning.
Speaker 6:I wasn't gonna say it.
Speaker 5:I said, oh, I've asked you too many questions before coffee, haven't I?
Speaker 6:And and so I think you just have to be aware when the questions are about you or if they're about them.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:And I think it's always under the guise of, I care for you. I'm interested. But I I think there is also this feeling of I wanna be the best mentor ever and and
Speaker 4:Yeah. Get
Speaker 6:like, my questions bring the breakthrough.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:And that's centering myself Yeah. And not my mentee. And so, yes, bring your questions, dig a little deeper.
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:Go with the open ended ones. Sometimes, discern when it's too many questions. Mhmm.
Speaker 4:Just be there. Like, what you're saying, I think also it's not leaving when they do make the bad choices, or they're not themselves, or they're not living to the potential that they could.
Speaker 5:Mhmm. Oh, that's a good piece of integrity. Is on the mentor's end, like, when your mentee takes that step of being just real about it, it's like your reaction to that helps them choose that again or be like, oh, I'm never doing that again. Like, I chose to be integrous about this is how I really feel about this. And my response or my mentor's response to that made me feel like that was the wrong thing to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. That's that's a big thing I've been learning, Colin, like, the last 3 years now is just this idea of shame. And what exactly is shame, and how do we experience shame? How do we process shame?
Speaker 3:How do we deal with shame? How do we you know, just all of the things around shame. And right now, I'm actually in a book club with a couple other guys, and we're reading the, what is it called, the soul of shame by Kurt Thompson, I think it is. And, like, it goes, like, really deep into this idea of what shame is. You're in a book club without me?
Speaker 3:Yes. I'm in a book club without you.
Speaker 5:Someone else wrote about shame other than Brene Brown?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So we're we're reading through this book, and we're only about halfway through right now. But it's been so good. And just even in the first four chapters of just me, like, starting to identify the different ways in which I experience shame in my life, which I'm learning and discovering in the last few months that that's a lot more than I thought it was, that there's that it it manifests its way in more ways than I was aware of. Right?
Speaker 3:And I knew kind of the the 30,000 foot view ones of, like, oh, I'm feeling shame because I did this, that, or the other thing. And, you know, there's that sense of guilt there or, you know, something like that. But one of the things that I'm learning is that shame also manifests itself in the form of lies, right, which I knew of the lies that I was believing. And I could tell you what a lot of those were, but I didn't connect that they were attached to shame. Right?
Speaker 3:And then within that has started kinda this journey of like, okay. This is the lie. This is the shame that I'm feeling. Where does that come from?
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right? Where in my life did I start to experience that or or whatever? And a lot of those answers come from my childhood and the way in which I expressed something and an adult, either my parents or somebody else, had a negative response to something vulnerable. Right? And a lot of those are at the very early earliest parts of my memory, and, you know, it's reasonable to deduce that a lot of or that some of that also was happening before my conscious memory.
Speaker 3:And so because I mean, my parents have even commented on this. Like, I am I'm a lone wolf. Like, I'm naturally somebody who struggles to ask for help. I I feel like I have to do everything myself. I really, really struggle to to delegate the the things.
Speaker 3:And Darius even called this out of me. We were we were doing a weekly one of our weekly check-in meetings, and we were, like, running up against the clock to be like, we need to we need to go. And I was like, we need to we need to stop this meeting because I need to do this. I need to do this, this, this, and this. And he's like, do you realize you just said you needed to do these 5 things?
Speaker 3:And JT is literally in front of you. Like, ask him to do something. Like, delegate. And so a lot of that has a lot of that is driven by shame. So, yeah, it it is the like, it's learning to ask the questions.
Speaker 3:It's teaching our mentees to ask their own questions. Right? But it's also, like, being aware of our response when they tell you something, especially when it's something vulnerable. Right? It's we can either be affirming or we can be shaming.
Speaker 3:Right? And our mentees are probably going to tell us that they did something really bad at some point. Right? Or at least in their viewpoint, it's something bad. And maybe in reality, it was probably not the best decision.
Speaker 3:But even in those moments, it's like, how do we how do we how do we be affirming in that? Like, how do we view that and go, okay. So you did this thing. That doesn't make you a bad kid. That doesn't change that I love you.
Speaker 3:Right? Like, I still love you. Mhmm. Right? And there's nothing that you can do that is going to change that.
Speaker 5:It's just like what we talked about on your first day of work yesterday. Right, Caitlin?
Speaker 4:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 5:She did not want to fail her new job. And I was I told her she already has failed me, so get that
Speaker 3:fear out of the way
Speaker 5:because she still got the job. And, like, we're here and, like, it didn't change anything about our belief in your capability, and that's, like, perfection is not what landed you the job. So yeah.
Speaker 3:That's good.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It was good.
Speaker 3:Well okay. I guess we're moving on.
Speaker 6:How about this? Reciprocal self disclosure.
Speaker 3:Reciprocal self disclosure.
Speaker 5:Just Google that.
Speaker 6:When your mentee opens up to you, you open up to him.
Speaker 5:With?
Speaker 6:Them.
Speaker 5:With wisdom on emotional boundaries between mentor and mentee.
Speaker 6:Asterisk.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 6:Researchers suggest that mentors may hesitate to reciprocally self disclose due to concerns about stealing the spotlight from the other person. Mentors may also struggle to know how much to disclose of their own lives. Yet studies suggest that if mentors had achievements or experiences similar have experienced similar setbacks or even trauma, it is beneficial to share them. By doing so, people can create a sense of connection and empathy.
Speaker 3:What is this from? Asterisk.
Speaker 6:It's from my good friend, Gene Rhodes, The Chronicle of Evidence Based Mentoring. You go, Gene.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That kinda ties in with an idea that we read in the Soul of Shame where we are like, as humans, one of the things that sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom is that we are storytellers. Right? We are the only species that we know of on the planet that tells stories and
Speaker 5:That we know of.
Speaker 3:Right. That we know of.
Speaker 4:Jollies and accessories. Know what they're doing Right.
Speaker 5:In their dog language.
Speaker 3:That we know of, that tells stories, and that we use that as a way to connect.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Well, that's interesting because it's like in the therapy world, there's tons of boundaries in place where, like, there's you can't disclose. Like, your therapist can't be like, oh, I I've been through something similar. Like, it's gotta be all about the client. So which they have their their research and their reasons for that.
Speaker 5:So it's just interesting that it's a little bit different from what Gene Rhodes has researched of what's best practice for mentorships.
Speaker 6:Is authenticity?
Speaker 5:With wisdom. That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 6:Authenticity builds trust. What does Craig Groeschel always say?
Speaker 5:I have no idea.
Speaker 3:I don't know how many books he has. He's got a few. So which one are you referencing specifically?
Speaker 6:He says something along these lines. People will always follow a leader who's real over a leader who's always right.
Speaker 5:You keep it real real.
Speaker 6:I am living my best life. I I mean, I am fairly authentic. I've had discipleship relationships where I've fallen asleep in the meeting. It doesn't get more authentic than that.
Speaker 5:That's pretty authentic. We had a lot of trust in that relationship. Was it Josh?
Speaker 3:I was waiting for somebody to do that. No. To my to my knowledge, he never fell asleep in one of our meetings. Although he did to his credit, he spent countless hours on the Dallas Hall long step or Dallas Hall steps reading books, entire books of the Bible with me in Wow. In one sitting.
Speaker 5:Goals.
Speaker 6:I guess I'll say this. If mentoring is a performance, you are going to be crushed.
Speaker 3:That's good. That's good.
Speaker 4:And they can tell whether it's a 4 year old kid or you're 30. Like, they can tell.
Speaker 3:Yeah. They definitely can. I don't even know which one of these questions to go to. I mean,
Speaker 5:you straight up haven't talked about how y'all ended up in a mentoring relationship.
Speaker 3:That's true. We haven't. I think I think we just yeah. So that was the that that was Pineapple. I'll leave that in.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean, that was the first question on this on today's list. Well, let's
Speaker 5:take it all the way back.
Speaker 3:Yeah. We're just gonna take it all the way back
Speaker 6:to how many times Beth and I rerecorded episodes of this podcast?
Speaker 3:Yes. Actually, I do. Because you've sent me different takes of the same episode.
Speaker 5:I think that's why I have your family history memorized because it was that episode. It was your introductory one.
Speaker 6:It was about me or it was about you?
Speaker 4:It was you.
Speaker 3:Oh, it was his meet the host episode?
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 6:Why were you so critical of my life history?
Speaker 5:How can I answer this without creating shame, Josh?
Speaker 3:I don't know because I don't know what you're gonna what is what you're trying
Speaker 4:to say. Key.
Speaker 6:You're saying it wasn't reciprocal self disclosure. It was just self disclosure.
Speaker 5:I think at that time, we just didn't have enough reps. And by we, I mean me to be able to go go, like, on a fly. There's a lot of errors.
Speaker 3:In terms of, like, hosting an episode? Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. So what we're hearing is Beth needed to host more episodes before
Speaker 5:Or just, like, not post.
Speaker 3:That's true. You're like, I'd rather just answer the questions.
Speaker 5:Yeah. You know?
Speaker 3:Alright. Well, if you go questions Stop it. The the first question we were supposed to talk about, and then we went down the integrity rabbit trail, which I'm not upset about, but was how has the core value relationships change lives, which is the primary value at forerunner as the 4 of us know, but maybe the listener doesn't. How has the core value relationships change lives impacted our specific mentoring relationships, and how has that translated into mentoring alongside each other at 4 Runner? So in this case, we're talking specifically about Beth and Caitlin's mentoring relationship, Steven's and my relationship.
Speaker 3:Like, how has being mentored by Beth and Steven changed the way in which we mentor or impacted our own lives, and how has that, like, affected how we mentor as well as the reciprocal of how has mentoring mentors changed, like, your perspective of mentoring and and affected that, which I guess for Steven and I is maybe a little different because our mentoring relationship happened before I worked at 4 Runner. That happened just a little bit of backstory there. Steven was the college pastor at SMU from our church Antioch. He was the college pastor. That's how I met him, and it was that 1st year, like, I was just in so much need of community that Steven really just intentionally poured into me, invested into me, helped me grow, helped, like, challenged me on a lot of things.
Speaker 5:What a guy.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 6:What like, do you remember when we met?
Speaker 3:In early no. It was early October of 2018. I'd been in Dallas for 6 weeks. I came to church.
Speaker 6:You came here.
Speaker 3:I came here. And you
Speaker 6:were like, wow. They really need help with their lights. Unfortunately, I'm getting my doctorate in lighting.
Speaker 3:Not doctorate, masters. Masters. There's no such thing as
Speaker 5:doctor in lighting.
Speaker 4:Doctor
Speaker 3:yes. I did have that thought. But I was also, like, not my place. Let's practice a new building.
Speaker 5:Apparently, it was.
Speaker 3:Well, see, that's a really funny story because I like, I came here or
Speaker 6:was that at the old building?
Speaker 3:That was here. I've never been to the old building. So I I came here. Right? And I came to the early services, like, the 1st or second week of October.
Speaker 3:And I met Zach, who was the lead pastor at the time. And, you know, he did, like, the typical get to know you questions. Right? The, you know, what's your name? Where are you from?
Speaker 3:What do you do for a living? That kind of stuff. So it was like, you know, what do what do you do for a living while I'm a student at SMU? He's like, oh, cool. You know, we have a life group there.
Speaker 3:I was like, yeah. I've heard. A couple of people have told me. He's like, let's introduce you to Steven. I was like, sure.
Speaker 3:Why not? He's like, so what are you what are you studying? And I was like, well, I'm getting my master's degree in lighting design. And he's like, that's awesome. Can you fix our lighting?
Speaker 3:Literally, like, within 5 minutes of of meeting him, he's like, can you fix our lighting?
Speaker 5:You were a godsend.
Speaker 3:I was like, well, I I have some ideas, but I also don't wanna be that random person that just comes in, changes a bunch of things, and then maybe He's
Speaker 5:like, no. I want you to be
Speaker 4:that person.
Speaker 3:And so I I was more, like, resistant on the front end of just, like, you know, I want to get rooted. I wanna build relationship, does that and the other thing. I didn't even start serving in the church for 6 months. Right? And then we did World Mandate in February, and after World Mandate, I started serving.
Speaker 3:And then from there, it kinda just progressed until COVID happened, and that's when we did several tens of 1,000 of dollar renovation. And I, you know, was given a budget to to fix the lighting and make it look clean and and not very kinda splish.
Speaker 6:It's an anointed to appointed kinda
Speaker 5:And somewhere in there, Steven mentored you?
Speaker 3:Yes. Somewhere well, somewhere in there, Steven mentored me.
Speaker 6:I feel like my question I would ask college students, I would say when I meet people, I'd say, what makes you burn?
Speaker 5:Oh my.
Speaker 3:You'd never ask me that.
Speaker 6:And I bet I bet you probably wouldn't be here if I asked you that. You probably would have responded with, like, an allergy.
Speaker 5:Keep that one in your toolbox. Keep that one deep down in your
Speaker 3:Like, under the the 3 or 4 levels of drawers. Yeah.
Speaker 5:Like that one.
Speaker 3:No. Steven, like, I met you here at the church either I think it was that 1st week or maybe it was the week after. But I met you here, and you're like, hey. You know, this is when LifeGroup is. Love to see you there.
Speaker 3:So I, actually, I think I still have the text messages. We went and, you know, I was like, hey, is is this still at this person's house? And you're like, yep. And I was like, cool. I think I can make it this week, which that was the big kinda question mark was because of my school schedule, because I was in theater and had rehearsals, and I was actually in rehearsals right around that same time.
Speaker 3:I was like, I don't know if I can make this work or if I can make this work consistently or what. And we I was able to make that work. So I met you here. 3 days later, I went to Life Group and met a bunch of other people who were my age and were pursuing Jesus, which was a totally radical thing for me because that just didn't really happen in Utah, at least in the same way. And then from there,
Speaker 6:like like a Mormon joke? Or
Speaker 3:No. It's a youth groups and life group and church small groups. It was like it's kind of a rare thing in Utah. Granted, 80% of the churches in Utah are also LDS churches, and that's that is a whole different conversation. But we like, I met you, and then I got to know you more.
Speaker 3:And then it was kind of the right around like that that spring semester is where you really started to invest specifically into me. One of my favorite memories truly was, like, we had just come back from spring or excuse me, winter break, And, you know, it was the new year, so new goals, things like that. And you would ask the entire life group to come up with, like, a goal for the spring semester in terms of, like, our relationship with God. Right? And then to split up, you know, pair off into whatever couple or into some groups and and tell somebody else what that was.
Speaker 3:Right? And so I got paired up with you, and I told you I was like, my goal for this this semester is just be more consistent in the word, read more of the Bible. Because at the time, I had I was like, there are entire books of the Bible I've never even read. I was like like Habakkuk. And I just picked a random one that I had never read.
Speaker 3:He's like, what what are you doing on on Tuesday? And I was like, well, I've got class at this time. And he's like, okay. So you wanna you wanna get lunch and read Habakkuk? And I was like
Speaker 5:Sounds right.
Speaker 3:Sure. I guess. Why not? And so Monday is, like, you know, doing the whole confirming, like, hey. You know, we still down to do this?
Speaker 3:And he's like, yeah. I was like, great. How much of Habakkuk are we gonna read? He's like, all of it. I was like
Speaker 5:Let's go.
Speaker 3:What? He's like, you realize Habakkuk is only 3 chapters. Right? I was like I I literally, like, pulled up the Bible app and looked at it. I was like, oh, no.
Speaker 3:I did not realize that. Like, I because there was so much of the Bible that I had never even considered reading or been in, like, I legitimately thought that a lot of the Old Testament was the length of Genesis, Exodus, Isaiah. You know, I knew Psalms was the longest in terms of number of chapters, but, you know, like, all of the books that I could think of were 30 something chapters. And so I'm sitting there going, like, how are we gonna read 30 chapters of a book and process all of that in, like, an hour? Because that's how much time I have.
Speaker 3:He's like, no. It's 3 it's 3 chapters. We're gonna read all of it. And we're like, okay. So that's what we did, and we talked about it.
Speaker 3:And then that started a rhythm where we would meet once a week, and we would pick a book. We'd bounce between Old Testament and New Testament, and we would read entire books of the Bible and talk about it and talk about, like, what stuck out, what what I was learning, things like that, how that played into kind of the the history of the Bible, that kind of stuff. And that really, one, that modeled, like, how to study the Bible for me because, again, like, I had no nobody really had ever taught me how to do those things, at least in a in a personal style. You know, my the version of Christianity I grew up with was go to church on Sunday and then maybe go to youth group on Wednesday as a teenager. But nobody was, like, ever being like, hey.
Speaker 3:You know, what are you learning in your quiet time? Or teaching me how to have a quiet time? Or teaching me how to pray or, you know, things like that. And so Steven's intentionality in that of just like, let's just let's meet up and read a book and talk about what's in it. Like, that that started to model that for me.
Speaker 3:So
Speaker 6:Do you think I'd ever done that before?
Speaker 3:I'm inclined to say no. No.
Speaker 6:I will I will say I heard one comment from n t Wright before then He said, reading a chapter is like sitting on a couch looking out a window, and then reading an entire book is like standing at the window. And he's like, which which do you think gives you a better view?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 6:And he was more talking about, like, historically, people would sit down and read this thing together.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:Even the book of Revelation has a promise that those who read it aloud will be blessed. And so we like, that's the only reason we did it because I'd never done it before. I was like, oh, this sounds like a great goal to actually go do this. Right.
Speaker 3:And I'm curious if it, like, eliminated or highlighted anything for you as we were doing that. Because, I mean, it it definitely impacted me.
Speaker 6:That that last to this day.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I was gonna say, did you do that with
Speaker 5:Logan? With John?
Speaker 6:No. No. We've been able to do chapters.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 6:Not the entire book.
Speaker 5:That's probably good for a 5th grader, you know?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I feel like a chapter is pretty good for especially if it's like Matthew or something like that because those are those those chapters are long. So but
Speaker 6:Reading the Bible with him and reading it with you
Speaker 3:Are very different things. For a
Speaker 6:really different experience. There's 1 chapter
Speaker 3:we write, and we're like,
Speaker 6:wait. I thought Jesus was already killed. What's they're doing it again?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah. Because there's, like, 20
Speaker 6:years difference. About it. It it's the same story. I'm confused.
Speaker 5:That was Josh. Right?
Speaker 3:Yes. Yes. That was 100%.
Speaker 6:No. That's cool. I wanted to name my firstborn Habakkuk.
Speaker 3:I don't
Speaker 6:think I ever told you that. So maybe I attached
Speaker 3:it as well. I feel like you did mention that, and I I know that Katie was like, no. We're not doing that.
Speaker 6:Oh, it clearly didn't work out.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You guys settled on Ben.
Speaker 5:It's a good name.
Speaker 3:It is a good name.
Speaker 6:Thank you. Thank you. I I loved meeting with Josh. I think it and and maybe this is just the way I view mentoring is that if you mentor, you grow. Mhmm.
Speaker 6:And so anyone that I've invested my life in, I receive back from from stepping out and doing it. And so, I think anything that anything that you learn from me was something I was learning.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:And and I'm better for it or anything that that we did together. And so that that's kinda how I approach this thing as, like, this is a life thing. Yeah. And better to grow with someone than by yourself.
Speaker 3:Agreed. And Which
Speaker 6:is why I wanted it in your book club. Yeah. No. I'm just kidding. It's fine.
Speaker 5:It's like
Speaker 3:We'll talk about that. We'll we'll talk about that later. There there is a reason why you didn't get the invite, and it has nothing to do with you.
Speaker 6:It's fine. It's fine. I'm reading books
Speaker 3:about genocide.
Speaker 5:Genocide. Yeah.
Speaker 3:But no. Like, I I agree. Like, the thing I think I appreciate about our relationship is that it's never really ended. Right? Like, the the intentional
Speaker 6:See, Caitlin?
Speaker 4:That's good evidence for me.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I like the example.
Speaker 3:It's like, you know, the in the intentional, like, meeting once a week to read a book of the bible, like, that season ended. But, I mean, I've always been in relationship with you since we met even if we didn't talk for 3, 4, 5, 6 months, and then you randomly called me. You're like, hey. I literally have nobody else to go. I need you to chaperone a bunch of students to a summer camp.
Speaker 3:But then I look at that, and I'm like, even that was a blessing because now I get to work alongside you and see you not every day, but the vast majority of the time, at least for, you know, a short period of time, and and connect and have a conversation. And we get to maintain that relationship. And then we get to experience some really joyful things, like Steven rapping on stage at church and getting to play in the worship band with you for that. So those those kinds of things, it's like your intentionality has affected me just in the sense that, like, you've shown me what valuing another person looks like, how to love somebody unconditionally, and how to impart wisdom in a way that isn't shaming, that's affirming, not shaming. Like, that the the way in which you mentored me modeled for me how to mentor students.
Speaker 3:So I I guess that's the my answer to this question is, like, you know, you directly impacted, like, the way in which I mentor the students. Wow. So
Speaker 5:Wow. What a guy.
Speaker 6:It's awesome.
Speaker 5:Good thing he's leading a mentoring org.
Speaker 6:Josh has chosen to do everything that I've done. I worked at Antioch. He now works at Antioch. I hosted a podcast. He's now hosting a podcast.
Speaker 6:Temporarily. Mentored kids. He's mentoring kids.
Speaker 3:The only thing I didn't choose to do that you did was go to a and m. Cool. Well,
Speaker 6:you even exceeded me there. You've gotten a master's degree. So, again
Speaker 5:There you go.
Speaker 6:The student has become the teacher.
Speaker 3:I I feel like there's a debate there on whether SMU is better than a and m, and I'm pretty sure most people would disagree or not.
Speaker 5:RecMtech.
Speaker 3:Gun and Slover. Those are those two options don't even count.
Speaker 5:Just kidding. I have no school spirit. All I had to say about that?
Speaker 3:That's fair. What about Beth and Caitlin?
Speaker 4:Me? What about it? What about it? Okay. So we met, I guess, whenever I was tutoring.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Probably you were program coordinator or site lead? Coordinator. Coordinator. So that's kinda full circle.
Speaker 4:So definitely met her then. I wasn't that connected with 4 Runner. But then as I worked there, I remember you would, like, tell me certain things that Jesus told you to tell me. Oh, I remember that. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And it would like I'm not a very expressive person so you probably did not know that you wrecked me on multiple occasions. I was like
Speaker 6:Wreck them.
Speaker 4:Oh, okay. I'll think about that or something. They're gonna be so basic, but I I would leave and just even weeks or months later be like, oh my freaking goodness. God is crazy. And she told me this.
Speaker 4:I we did actually sit down and have lunch about one of them. I was like, I need you to explain.
Speaker 5:Oh, yeah. I remember that.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And so that would happen, and I could see in you more than anybody I had ever seen and still have ever seen, like, Jesus through you and in you. And so similar to you, Josh, like, when I was starting off as a Christian, which is when I was 16, I it was just me figuring out there wasn't, like, people to say, hey. This is best practice. This is how you could do this.
Speaker 4:It was just a lot of trial and error and a lot of fails and wrong directions. And so fast forward to 4 Runner year 1, I guess. Seeing him and you and, like, knowing that you were super wise and super close to him, I was like, okay. Like, gotta gotta ask about mentoring or something because I just wanted to be close to him like you were. And I just wanted to present that to the boys specifically, but to everybody else in the way that you did and do.
Speaker 4:And so she mentored me through the summer, and it I think I'd probably ask you, like, I wanna do nonprofit things, like more on the business side rather than the spiritual side. I know I knew I threw in.
Speaker 5:You did. You said, I want a career nonprofit. Can you teach me how to have a career nonprofit?
Speaker 4:And she did. Look at that.
Speaker 5:Let's go. Full time job started out this week. So proud of you, Caitlin.
Speaker 4:Oh, man. That's so crazy. But yeah. So I probably I did ask more on the business side and I was like, if you got spiritual direction, let's go. And it was probably because I was I don't like to be straightforward because it's uncomfortable.
Speaker 4:But in that, it did turn into a lot of vision and identity and mission and, like, you just teaching me a lot of how Jesus sees me, which is super hard for me to understand. And so, yeah, that was definitely an life altering season and relationship that is still happening. And it's cool to see how we've gotten closer even outside of the way that you met with me before, just like the way we've grown. It's been a blessing for sure. It's so honoring.
Speaker 6:I I feel like this podcast, you guys are just trying to flatter us.
Speaker 3:No. We're trying to honor you.
Speaker 4:I could probably keep going, but I would start crying. So Please. I'm gonna cut it off to you.
Speaker 6:Beth talk to you like she does today, or is that I I feel like she feels very comfortable.
Speaker 4:When she was mentoring me, did she talk to me like we do now?
Speaker 6:Yeah. Like, your first interactions with Beth, was she
Speaker 4:Straight up.
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Because she told me I was gonna have to be bold. She told me other deep things that I just don't necessarily don't think we need to go into now. But, but she was very straightforward. We talk differently now, but, like, I think kind of the wisdom thing as you were talking about earlier of what the relationship is different.
Speaker 4:So probably that piece looks different, but she was so honest and authentic and told me the hard things that I needed to hear. Didn't just leave me where I was. Yeah.
Speaker 5:I think that first lunch was a hard thing, like Yeah. That we talked about. So Yeah. Yeah. I remember so I had just transitioned maybe 6 months before from the director of programs to director of operations.
Speaker 5:And I, my whole life, pretty much have always had an easy way to mentor people. I've just always been involved in ministries and things where it's just like, oh, I'm in student ministry. I can easily mentor these high school kids or junior high kids or college kids. And then I was in programs, so I've got the boys. In operations, I was suddenly like, I don't have a I don't have a place to, like, coach or, like, develop someone.
Speaker 5:And I was really missing that and was praying about it one day and, like, was like, Lord, I I don't know what I'm supposed to do in this new season of life where, like, there's no one for me to directly, like, pour into. Like, there's no one coming up after me that I can just naturally, like, that it just makes sense to mentor them. And so I was like, I really miss that. And if there's an opportunity for me to do that in my current field, in my current position, I wanna do that. And I think it was like 2 days later.
Speaker 5:So you came up to me at my desk and you were like you said exactly that. You were like, I wanna career nonprofit. Will you teach me how to do that? Which is great. And I didn't know how to mentor anybody in that, so I I made a curriculum.
Speaker 5:Like, I made a I made a curriculum for it.
Speaker 3:That doesn't surprise me at all.
Speaker 4:I still have one of the papers.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah?
Speaker 5:Yeah. There was Did she have to, like,
Speaker 3:write papers?
Speaker 5:She didn't you didn't have to write papers. I made her answer some some shorter short answer questions.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 5:And we did some exercises. Some googling was involved, some research.
Speaker 4:The curriculum?
Speaker 6:Yeah. I'm very impressed.
Speaker 3:Steven never did that for me. He was like, we're just gonna read this book.
Speaker 5:Well, that's just the difference between us, but it's great. Yeah. So you came up to me, And then also there was just this, like, random connection. A friend of mine that I had in Lubbock knew this girl who was working on nonprofit in Midland who was going through this, like, crazy situation and is very confidential and she didn't have anybody to talk to to, like, process with. And so she just, like, got me on the phone with her.
Speaker 5:And so I was, like, overnight, it felt like how these 2 women who were seeking out, like, I wanna be raised up in nonprofit wisdom or nonprofit leadership, biblical wisdom, and, like, grow in what the Lord has for them. So it was just really cool that, like, if you ask for it, the Lord will find a way to make it happen if it's right. So that was cool. And then, yeah, like, me and Caitlin hung out for a summer. I feel like it's very generous of her to call it mentorship because like I said, did not know what I was doing.
Speaker 5:And it was just it was just a lot of, hey, here's an org chart. Where do you picture yourself on
Speaker 4:that someday? No. We got deeper than that. Don't let her fool you guys because she did more than she knows.
Speaker 5:Well, we just talked a lot about values and the I think that's the main thing we've that I remember is just, like, helping Caitlin realize what is her personal values and, like, where can her giftings and the things that as Steven might ask his college students apparently, what it what makes her burn? Is that what you said?
Speaker 6:What makes you burn?
Speaker 5:Yeah. That's basically what we talked about is what are you passionate about and just hearing hearing the Lord and those things of like, hey, that's on your heart for a reason because that's not on my heart. So it's on your heart for a reason. Lord wants you to do something like that. So and now we're here.
Speaker 5:We share an office.
Speaker 4:We do.
Speaker 5:Well, the thing is I believe in Caitlyn. And, like, from the very start, Caitlyn is one of those people I love when people who are maybe more reserved or more quiet and maybe might be overlooked as, like, your stereotypical leader. Like, when you see it in them and you get the chance to put them on the platform and elevate them because they would never do it for themselves because you've got that humility, I love that. And so that's just something I care a lot about, and I saw that in Caitlyn for the first time, like, the first time I met her. So, like, there is a lion in Caitlyn.
Speaker 5:And if we can just get her in the right setting, you're gonna see it. And Yeah. Like, she's got a lot of impact in her, so clear the path.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean, it reminds me of a conversation we had, I think it was early last year. You know, I was just like, you know, what what are your ambitions? What do you what do you see? Like, where do you see yourself at, 4 Runner, or not at 4 Runner?
Speaker 3:I was like, where do you see yourself? And she was like, I don't know. Maybe site lead eventually. I'm sitting there going like, okay. I mean, that would be great.
Speaker 3:Like, you would you would be great in that. But I'm sitting there even going like, I could see program coordinator. I could see I could see full time position leading leading the the program kind of thing. I was like, I could see that. So like, I I I know exactly what you're talking about, Beth, because I could see it too.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I didn't tell her that.
Speaker 5:We see you, girl.
Speaker 3:Yeah. We see you.
Speaker 4:You could.
Speaker 6:Insert courage. Beat chest. What? What's that like? The the emoji where he's like
Speaker 5:Oh, like yeah. The one with smoke blowing out his nose.
Speaker 6:It's called triumph.
Speaker 4:That exactly.
Speaker 6:Colin triumph Colin on Slack.
Speaker 3:I don't I don't even know what's happening right now.
Speaker 5:Don't worry about it.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, next question, and then we'll probably wrap that up because we've been talking for way just a long time. How has your unique background affected your approach to mentoring? So for example, like my my testimony of going from Utah to Texas, but also having, like, left the church and then coming back. Like, how is that like, how is your your testimony, your background, like, how has that shaped how you approach mentoring, how how you mentor the the things you talk about, you know, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 6:Can you rephrase the question?
Speaker 3:Think about your past.
Speaker 5:What did it do to you? And how has that
Speaker 6:happened to you?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Think about think about your past. How did that shape you as a human being? Like, who are you today because of that? And then how how did your past or, like, how does your past affect how you mentor now?
Speaker 3:Like, for you specifically, it's like your your relationship with Logan or with me or somebody else.
Speaker 6:Have you guys seen that post on the internets? It's like you are the adult you needed as a child. Mhmm.
Speaker 5:I have, but I'm like, no. I'm not. So, like, I'm a mess.
Speaker 3:Do you do you
Speaker 6:do you really believe that?
Speaker 5:Depends on the day. I'm getting there.
Speaker 3:I think I view that as, like, when I consider that in my own life, I think it's not necessarily the I'm the adult my child needed as I'm becoming the adult, my inner child needed. Like, I'm learning to see him and see what he needed, what his emotional needs were. And then when I can identify those, I work towards meeting that, Which I guess translates into how I mentor because I see a lot of myself and a lot of the kids, especially when there's, like, a a discipline conversation happening or they've done something that maybe I didn't like or whatever. And we're having more of that 1 on 1, like, conversation. I think I I think I typically approach that from the, what is this what is the emotional need this kid has right now?
Speaker 3:Because, you know, him throwing a punch or throwing a chair or kicking over a trash can, whatever. I'm like, in the grand scheme of things, like, is it a problem? Yes. Because we're having a disciplined conversation because of it. But is it the focus?
Speaker 3:Is it the important thing? And 99.9% of the time, the answer to that is no. It's I think I see that more as a symptom than the problem. Right? The problem is so much deeper than that.
Speaker 3:It's some emotional need that's not getting met. It's something happened at school. It's, you know, kind of what you were talking about earlier, Steven, with with Logan and just, like, see like, rather than him telling you, like, hey. I just I'm having a bad day, it's you're you're seeing that on the front, or you're, like, you're starting to dig into that. Right?
Speaker 3:And more often than not, I'm I'm learning that there's there's an emotional need of some kind, like a valid, true, like, heart need that this kid has got right now that isn't being met, and he's reacting because of that. He's reacting with anger. He's reacting with some negative coping mechanism because he's either not being affirmed, or he's not feeling valued, or he's not feeling safe, or whatever this need is, like, it's not being met. So I've I think I've been looking at my past and identifying, especially at 13, 14 years old, where I had a lot of those needs that weren't getting met. Like, I look at those and I go, okay.
Speaker 3:What is this kid not getting that I wish I had when I was his age? What do I wish an adult would have done for me? And then how do I meet that here? Right? How do I meet that in this unique scenario of this kid at program who is throwing a fit or kick the trash can or, you know, something like that?
Speaker 3:It's like, how do I meet that need?
Speaker 5:Well, now I'm just, like, thinking about childhood, so I'm, like, really sidetracked.
Speaker 6:I'm trapped.
Speaker 5:I'm in a dark tunnel of thought.
Speaker 6:2 nights ago, I watched the episode of Ted Lasso season 3.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:And the main theme of the episode was suppressing your thoughts, feelings, emotions, what you think or think you should say, like, the the timing or the feeling is that it's elusive or that you're being encouraged to suppress it or you just you're just choosing to. It really got to me because I do I do feel like most of my childhood, I I suppressed what I felt. One of my mantras was that if anyone knew me, they could never love me.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:And it wasn't until college that I met Jesus where I realized the one person that knows everything about me truly loves me. And it was kinda like from that moment on expressing the things that were that I was going through, what I was feeling, thinking, which is probably why I share intrusive thoughts because because it's like I've gone too far the other way where it's like I feel I feel free to just share share what's on the inside and don't don't feel like, I don't know, like a fear that I'm gonna I I'm I'm not really fighting for people's respect.
Speaker 3:And so
Speaker 6:I don't know. I I think I think that's kind of what I'm living into, and I I wish and long for anybody that I that I mentor to experience is that I wanna be a safe place for, yeah, people people to be open, vulnerable, transparent, and find freedom that there there is somebody that can love you despite anything you've done or thought or experienced. So I I think that is a a driving underlying childhood reason for the way that I just am. So
Speaker 3:Kind of the idea of you don't want your mentees
Speaker 6:Also, I was a perpetual liar growing up. I would lie about everything. And in a way, I I don't want I don't that's not true of me. That's not who I am. Mhmm.
Speaker 6:And and and so I I want to, you what?
Speaker 5:So now you overshare to just, like, not hide things?
Speaker 6:Maybe that yeah. I mean, I just like, the last thing I want to be true of me is that I'm a liar.
Speaker 3:So And then I'm sure you view, like, omitting something intentionally as a form of lying. So to get around not being a liar, you just share everything and wear your heart on your sleeve.
Speaker 6:When it's like, what were the things that led me to be a liar? Because I wanted people to like me, to love me, to care for me, to think much of me. And so all of those desires led me down this dark path that no one even knew I was going down. They probably didn't even know that was a need that I had where I'm sure some adults were like, this kid's crazy. But, yeah, I I mean, I would just say we experience that all the time, even kids coming back from summer camp trying to convince their campmates that they're millionaires, and they're just trying to fit in.
Speaker 6:Mhmm. Just trying to say, like, oh, I'm I got as much money as you. And I think the temptations to lie affect everyone because there there is a I mean, you even talk about social media. There's there's a facade, a a mask that we put on. That's so easy to get get trapped get trapped doing that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 6:And so
Speaker 5:Mhmm. It's good.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I agree a lot with what you said to like. Tell me
Speaker 6:the part you disagree with right now. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 5:Don't agree with
Speaker 4:all of it. I agree with all of it.
Speaker 3:No. You don't. I do.
Speaker 4:I'm not lying. I promise. And, yeah, y'all threw me off. No. Okay.
Speaker 4:So, yes, I agree with a lot of what you said. And to say in a different way, I think a lot of what I see is kids just, like, wanting to be seen, just wanting somebody to be like, I acknowledge you. I know you're here. And I know something about you, who you really are, something like that along those lines. And so I think that's what pushes me and affects how I mentor just because I see that as the root of a lot of behaviors, good and bad.
Speaker 4:Whether they're trying to do everything right so that they are acknowledged or whether they're doing all the wrong things so that they're acknowledged. They just want somebody to see them and to show up and to let them be who they are. And yeah. So I think that's the goal with every relationship that I have, specifically with the boys.
Speaker 3:Well, when I think of that like, I think our program and the way it's structured creates an interesting dynamic of that. Right? Because every boy just wants to be acknowledged, wants to be seen and heard. And so they either do that by behaving or they do it by misbehaving. Right?
Speaker 3:Depending on kind of their own past and how they grew up and what they have learned is kinda the most effective way to do that. But I I think of that like, I look at the the difference between a 1 on 1 mentor relationship and a group mentoring relationship like the after school program. Right? 1 on 1 mentoring, like, it's so much easier to acknowledge that need, to acknowledge that that kid, to pour into them intentionally, and to communicate on a regular case by or on a regular basis. Like, I see you.
Speaker 3:Right? Because that kid is your only focus. Whereas the after school program, like, I almost view that as, like, creating a family dynamic. Right? It's, you know, you grow up in a family with 3, 4 kids, and maybe you're the middle child.
Speaker 3:And maybe this other child has some more discipline problems, and so your parents are, like, always focused on them and this, that, and the other thing. It's like
Speaker 6:Shout out to the middle children. Right? Okay.
Speaker 3:That was a middle child. So but no. It it creates like it becomes so much more difficult in group mentoring to acknowledge every child at every given moment. It's it's almost not possible to do that. So it becomes like a a practice of of seeing and highlighting each child as you go in the moment, knowing that you can't, like, you know, at 4:30, you'd be like, I acknowledge Joe.
Speaker 3:And then 4:35 is like, okay. Jimmy is acting up, so I have to acknowledge him. It's like, how do you how do you acknowledge all of them all at the same time in this group mentoring setting when there's so many moving parts and then that gets even more complicated the more students you add? Right? If it's 3 or 4 students or 5 or 6 in in your grade group or whatever, like, that's a little bit easier because the numbers are lower.
Speaker 3:But when you throw, like, all of them together all at the same time during bible time or whatever, like, that becomes more of a challenge to be like, you know, how do we how do we meet every child's need at the same time? And I don't necessarily think that that's a bad thing that we're not able to acknowledge every sing single student at every single minute because, one, we are still acknowledging them, and we're still affirming them throughout the day. So they are getting that. But 2, it's also teaching them how to self regulate, right, and how to become self sufficient so that they can operate as an adult in the world.
Speaker 4:I think too it's the perfect opportunity to lean on Jesus because you do your best. You do what you can for every single kid all the time. And then in the times that you're not with them, the reminder of Jesus wants your attention. He wants your thoughts and your eyes and your ears and your words. And so, like, even if it's not me, there's still someone who wants you Yeah.
Speaker 4:And wants you to give yourself to them and vice versa.
Speaker 3:The idea of I can't, so Jesus needs to.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Or even that he just values you enough to Yeah. Care about what you what you are and what you think about.
Speaker 5:Mhmm. Well, my background, I just think older I get, the more I'm, like, distanced from what I used to think when I was younger where I just I think it's actually Henry Nowen that talks about the the Told you. The temptation of wanting to be relevant.
Speaker 3:And I
Speaker 5:think when I was first starting out mentoring, there's just, like, this huge temptation to wanna be the mentor that, like, every mentee wants them to, you know, to be mentored by you. And that's a lot of pressure as it turns out, and you can't live up to that. And but I think now, like, when I look back at the mentors that have meant the most to me and just what they did, like, I I think of this day stands out in my mind of, like, there's a specific day that it was like I went through a serious crisis, and I pulled out my phone. And I was like, I can't call my family yet about this. Like, I can't tell them yet.
Speaker 5:So who do I call? And I was, like, scrolling through my contacts. I was like, I can't tell my friends about this yet. Like, who do I call? And I ended up calling, like, a mentor figure, and, like, they were the first person, like, I I asked help in the situation.
Speaker 5:You know, like, I I think for me, my perspective now on mentoring is just simple as that. Like, I just want to live a life where if you have my name in your phone, you know that I'm on your call list. Like, you can call me, in a moment of crisis. And, like, I don't I don't really wanna position myself anymore of being, like, so essential to anybody's life that they there's any dependence that they have to have on me or that I feel the pressure to, like, be everything for them or to have this claim of relevance in anybody's life. I just wanna to live an authentic life enough to where, like, I mean what I say.
Speaker 5:And if I say I'm your friend, then I am. And if I say I'm here for you, then I am. If I say you can call me anytime, then you can. And simple as that.
Speaker 4:I think that's how Jesus fulfills when he says he's with us always, like, just being the presence in that sense. Like, that's him fulfilling his promise. That make sense?
Speaker 5:Sounded good to me. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Alright. Last question, then we'll wrap it up. How do you mentor within your unique role at Forerunner? So we got 4 different roles here. We've got executive director, Steven.
Speaker 3:We got director of operations as Beth. We have when I sent this out, I didn't know this, but we have program coordinator as Caitlin, and then we have me as the site lead. They're all different levels of engagement with the boys, but we're all like, we all still refer to each other as coaches. They all know us as coaches. We still have a presence in their life.
Speaker 3:So it's like, what does, you know, what does mentoring look like within that role? How do you how do you intentionally mentor? How do you pour into the kids? You know, those kinds of things. What do those what do those relationships look like?
Speaker 4:Well, I don't really know yet.
Speaker 6:That's fair.
Speaker 3:You won't That's fair. For 24 hours? Yeah.
Speaker 4:Big old TBD on that one.
Speaker 3:Well, okay. But even as an instructional coach. Right? Because that's where you can't you know, that was your previous position. And so it's not like you're getting hired off the street.
Speaker 3:You have some relationship with these kids.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Well, I think even as program coordinator, my a big goal is that I wanna help the coaches to mentor the best I can. So even if I'm not like I love the boys so much and I wanna be down there, but now I won't be down there as much. So just, like, making sure they're equipped as possible to be the best mentor that they can.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, obviously, I already shared the story of, like, I think my position now is more getting the opportunity to pour into staff and encourage them and be a supporter behind the scenes. But I will also say, like, going downstairs and getting to know the names of the boys in the program. And even if it's just a couple of them, like, just finding your guys and, like, going and seeking them out and building relationships with the ones where you can, making time for it, making an excuse for it.
Speaker 5:Yeah. And I don't know. I think it's simple like that. Just for kids.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think maybe I have the easiest answer of us because I am the site lead. So I'm I'm naturally with the boys. Like, my job is to facilitate the program. Right?
Speaker 3:And so for me, it it's just showing up. Right? It's showing up every day. It's doing my job. It's doing it to the best of my ability.
Speaker 3:It's always be growing. It's being teachable. It's living out the core values and and modeling what being a man of god is for these students because, you know, I think I think the way I tend to to tend to think about it is, like, I'm in the trenches. Right? I'm I'm there with them, and that I mean, that's a place where I would rather be.
Speaker 3:Right? Like, I think about last year between my 1st year and second year, there were a couple of full time positions open that there were application you guys were taking applications for, and I intentionally chose not to apply. Not because I didn't think I could get one of those positions, but I intentionally chose not to apply because I didn't want to not be with the kids every day. I wasn't ready to to not be there in program every day. Right?
Speaker 3:And I in in some respect, I'm still on that. In in that, like, I I enjoy being a site lead because it's the perfect level of leadership and, like, actually impacting and seeing on a daily basis the impact that I'm having on these boys. Right? We all are impacting these boys in some way, you know, by our unique roles within within the organization, but we're not all front facing or forward facing in the sense of, like, building that that intimate relationship with the boy and then, like, having them pick one of us to baptize them. And, like, oh, the the baptisms I see, it it's like that is the fruit of the work that we're doing.
Speaker 3:And so, like, that I think that's the easiest answer is that, you know, because of the nature of my role, like, and the fact that I am like, my job is to be with the boys just as Caitlin's as an instructional coach was to be Yeah. Their teaching and coaching and guiding, though, that that question gets easier. But it it does get a little more challenging for executive director or director of operations where, you know, it's not as front facing. So
Speaker 5:You know, in some ways, yes. But in other ways, like, I just think there's so much opportunity for, like, me and Steven and other people in the office to, like, to just be so fans of our mentors Yeah. And our coaches to, like we know how hard that job is. And so to be able to be, like, I'm so excited you get to have your own stories. Because, like, I have stories of, like, my guys from when I was a coach and a site lead.
Speaker 5:And, like, now it's like so I don't know. There's just like a true like, I get it. I know how hard it is when you come in and you're, like, I am having a day. And I'm like, I know what that means. Yeah.
Speaker 5:But, you know so we may not have as many, like, direct correlation stories, but to be able to just be the the the person in the corner of the ring rather than the person in the ring. What's that called? Like, the guy who, like, you know, like, gets the the rag and, like, cools off, you know, like Rocky. You know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 3:I know what you're talking about. I have no idea what it's called because
Speaker 5:Well, it's the guy in the corner Yeah. Instead of the guy in the ring. And
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 5:Both are needed. And so I I love that I get to to be that person now. And y'all, I send you. I commission you. Go do the thing.
Speaker 5:I got your back.
Speaker 4:Well, and I like that picture though.
Speaker 3:And to your and to your credit, both yours and Steven's, like, over the last 2 years, there have been plenty of times where, like, I'll shoot you a Slack and be like, hey, This kid is asking to see you. Like, he wants to see you. Can you guys make time to to just pop over, like, as you're leaving or whatever because y'all leave before program ends? Right? And, usually, you guys are pretty good about about doing that.
Speaker 3:Right? So it's not that you're never there. You know, you guys you guys still are mentoring. It just isn't 10 hours a week in this it's in the same sense.
Speaker 5:That's true. I think I don't know if Steven ever feels this, but my temptation is to sometimes feel like like I'm just gonna be in the way if I'm down there, so I just don't wanna interrupt anything. But I think the feedback I've gotten, like, from coaches and things is like that it's encouraging when somebody pops down that's not normally there to just, like, see that the effort that y'all are putting into this thing. And so if nothing else, maybe it's not, like, about the kids, but it's just encouraging the people who are in the front lines like you're saying, and just somebody coming down and seeing, like, I see you, Josh.
Speaker 4:I see
Speaker 5:what you're doing. I see you, Caitlin. Like, you're putting in the work, and we commend you.
Speaker 3:So Yeah. And even I mean, there is that for sure. And even when, like, you're coming down and intentionally engaging with a kid, like, it's helpful for us. And I think about this is probably the worst possible example of this, but I'm gonna run with it anyway. This last year, Steven came over to the junior high once, well, twice.
Speaker 3:The the Stafford student came, but once in program. Right? He came over once. And he walked in, and I was like, Steven, I'm so thankful you're here. Can you help this kid with Spanish homework because I'm helping this other student with his math homework, and I can't do both?
Speaker 3:And so he's here. He sat there and low key ended up doing the student's Spanish homework for him and felt really bad about that.
Speaker 5:Oh, no.
Speaker 3:Oh, this story gets even worse because after after this happened, like, Steven was like, hey. Can I talk to you for a second? Which, you know, whenever somebody says that to me, even if there's nothing wrong, my first thought is worst case scenario of, like, oh, man. What did I do? I was, like, sure.
Speaker 3:And so we, like, dip off into the corner of the room or whatever. He's like, hey. Can I see your binder? I'm, like, oh, man. Like, I was, like, we're getting audited right now.
Speaker 3:And I just pawned Steve I pawned this kid off on Steven when he came over to audit us. Can you
Speaker 5:help us get with a Spanish homework?
Speaker 3:And I was like, that not a great move.
Speaker 5:That's funny.
Speaker 3:But even in that moment, like, Steven was still willing to sit there and help this kid do his Spanish homework because JT and I just did not have the capacity to do that. We had so many students in in program that day, and so many of them needed help with other things that I was like, you know, I I want to. I want to help this kid, and I want to help him do his homework. I just can't. Like, there's I can't be in 3 places at once.
Speaker 3:And so having that extra set of hands was really, really helpful even if it was probably the worst possible day day to do that.
Speaker 4:He's like, points deducted.
Speaker 3:Basically. I I legit thought that was gonna happen.
Speaker 5:That's funny.
Speaker 6:You passed.
Speaker 3:I appreciate that.
Speaker 5:Well, Steve and I have been talking about potentially changing the core values to just be the five traits of a man of god. Am I allowed to say that? Is that that under the radar? Pass. It's just a discussion.
Speaker 5:It's not official.
Speaker 6:But when
Speaker 5:we were talking about humility, one of the things we mentioned was, like, you know, for, like, our leadership staff or ELT to to have the perspective of our work is not so important that we can't put it down to come Yeah. And spend time with the kids and support the coaches, see what they're doing, be on-site. So
Speaker 3:I'm I'm just throwing that out there. I'm always for visits from from full time staff and whatnot in
Speaker 5:in the gym now. Being audited?
Speaker 3:Even if we're being audited. Like, it's it's just really nice to have somebody who I don't get to see as regularly as I used to because we're a mile down the road. Right? It's not like, you know, hey. Beth's leaving.
Speaker 3:I can wave wave to her as she's leaving through the doorway while the kids are outside playing. Like, you guys leave. Like, we get back to the building long after pretty much everybody has left. It's JT and I are are truly the last people to leave most nights. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because we don't get back until 6:30 or 7 o'clock. And so it's just it's always refreshing when when somebody who is full time comes and just hangs out and, you know, chats with a boy or builds a relationship with a boy or, you know, comes and shoots some hoops or whatever. Like, it's it's just always, like, it's it's a traditional invitation.
Speaker 5:You can come sit and watch me run budgets all day long. Pull
Speaker 3:up the chair. I mean, I do. How many times do I come in, like, super early?
Speaker 5:That's true. You do you do that, actually. You will stand at my desk. Talk to me.
Speaker 3:That's true.
Speaker 5:Appreciate it.
Speaker 3:Granted part of that had to do with I lived in Flower Mound, and it was a 45 minute drive. So once I left the house in the morning, I was gone all day. And if the schedule just worked out, or I was like, I have an hour. I don't have enough time to go home and come back. I'm like, guess I'm going to work early.
Speaker 3:But Well,
Speaker 5:we love it, and we miss you guys when y'all are gone in the summer.
Speaker 3:And I would much rather, like, spend time in the office just hanging out with you guys even though I'm not on the clock than, like, going and sitting at a coffee shop because I know that all I'm gonna do at a coffee shop is probably watch YouTube for an hour, which is not life giving. Whereas coming and hanging out with you guys, at least now I get to have a conversation. Maybe I'm challenged. Maybe I'm gonna learn something. Right?
Speaker 4:Relationships change lives.
Speaker 3:Yep. Relationships change lives. And relationships with YouTube are probably the worst relationships you can have.
Speaker 5:Did you say YouTube or
Speaker 3:YouTube? YouTube. I was like, oh, on the website.
Speaker 5:I was like, Josh, You're so offended.
Speaker 3:No. YouTube. The social media.
Speaker 5:I was like, wow. Thought we had something going on.
Speaker 3:Steven, how do you answer this question?
Speaker 5:Steven's asleep.
Speaker 3:It's late. Steven's asleep.
Speaker 6:Well, I I would just say that no matter what position you have in an organization, the kids are watching
Speaker 3:Mhmm. And they
Speaker 6:know they know if you care. I did have a student encourage me. I don't think I've shared this on the podcast. I don't think I've been on the podcast.
Speaker 3:I was gonna say probably not because you haven't been on the podcast in, like, 85 episodes.
Speaker 6:My first role at forerunner was being a photographer, And a boy came up to me recently and said, coach Steven, I'm so proud of you. And I said, you're gonna have to unpack this. And he said, man, I just know. I know when I was in 4th grade, you were the photographer, and look at you now. God has raised you up, maybe because you're good at this relationships thing and you just talk to the right people, but I think God's raised you up to be the leader.
Speaker 6:You've grown so much.
Speaker 3:I'm so proud of you. Wow.
Speaker 6:This is a high school student. I don't think there's been a greater encouragement I've received while being a forerunner. Even if there was a slight, I don't know, that I could I could sense. He was like, you you were just a photographer. And I just I but I love that he he even remembered that.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:He remembered shooting videos, shooting photos
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:Me coming to Northlake Elementary when he was this tall, and now he's through the roof. And kids will always remember how you made them feel, Not what you said to them, and that was a a terribly paraphrased Maya Angelou quote. She's a poet, so paraphrasing a poet is a bad idea.
Speaker 5:Got the vibe.
Speaker 6:But I would just say, we're all modeling something. Mhmm. What what are we modeling? I remember one of the boys came up, and I was working on a grant. And the temptation was to say, can you just wait?
Speaker 6:I need to send this email. And to turn that around and say, everything is an invitation to learn. And so I showed him, here's here's what I'm writing. Here's why I'm saying these big words because I'm trying to impress this person. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 6:But literally saying, my job as the executive director is to ask for help. Mhmm. And
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 6:If I can present a compelling case for why our organization is is a worthwhile investment to partner with us, that the work happening in here here matters and it aligns with this person's purpose, that they they may get you to camp or they may fund this program that you're a part of. And this boy, he was like, I get it. I get what you guys are doing up here. And we submitted that grant. We received it, and I I was able to go back to him and say, because of you, every single boy in our program is going to summer camp.
Speaker 6:And Wow. I I mean, I I think that was that was just a fun moment to share with him of, like, he he might not ever pass by a grant before again. But at least every time he thinks about the staff behind the scenes, he knows that we're all supporting the things that he's experiencing. Mhmm. And and I don't know, maybe he'll be a nonprofit leader one day.
Speaker 5:You know
Speaker 6:Like Caitlin Mowdy.
Speaker 5:Rowdy Mowdy. The the first picture I have of Steven as executive director is him sitting in the office at Northlake Baptist with a kid who happened to need to sit in office with us that day. And y'all are drawing on the whiteboard, and you're asking him for help coming up with ideas for recruitment.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 5:And that was the day that y'all came up with Skillman. So from day day 1, I'm doing
Speaker 6:well. I'm still waiting. Skillman's still waiting for his day.
Speaker 5:That's a different podcast episode to unpack that.
Speaker 6:You'll have to have us back, Josh.
Speaker 3:I was gonna say you are aware that you're the executive director of the organization. Right? We're following you.
Speaker 6:With great power comes great responsibility.
Speaker 3:Okay. That's that's probably true.
Speaker 6:And a part of that is hearing your team when you have a terrible idea.
Speaker 3:Beth is is Steven's regulator.
Speaker 6:But I would say it's your job to make my idea better.
Speaker 3:I mean, sometimes it's not as valid. Of just, like, basic new reality of when an idea is just
Speaker 6:not true. Have experience with theater. Yeah. And yes, and.
Speaker 3:Not always.
Speaker 4:Your nose matter too.
Speaker 3:Not all improv is yes and. Sometimes it truly needs to be no. Let's not.
Speaker 6:We're not going there.
Speaker 5:If knives are
Speaker 3:involved, it's usually a no.
Speaker 6:Josh, I'll end this podcast the way I started it.
Speaker 5:Denyside?
Speaker 4:The bomb goes off in the back.
Speaker 6:I'm so proud of you.
Speaker 3:I appreciate
Speaker 6:that. You ruined it.
Speaker 3:You ruined it. I'm sorry. I mean, it it was a reasonable conclusion because you did serve the podcast with genocide. Proud of you, Josh. Thank you, Steven.
Speaker 3:I appreciate that. Alright. Thank you so much, Caitlin, Beth, and Steven for joining us today. I really legitimately have no idea how to edit this. Do you guys have any encouragement for our listeners, anything like that based off of anything we've talked about in the last few and few hours?
Speaker 5:We can mentor.
Speaker 3:Are we changing the title of the podcast now to We Can Mentor?
Speaker 5:Yeah. Because apparently, we all only do group interviews. That's all I got, Josh. I don't know
Speaker 3:what's all I got. Okay. We can mentor. So that says we can mentor.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Ditto. I agree.
Speaker 3:Steven, do you got anything?
Speaker 5:This is exactly what it's like when I ask him some
Speaker 4:questions in the morning.
Speaker 3:Shuts down. Yes. Computing.
Speaker 6:As a mentor, don't try to be anyone but yourself. Mhmm. You can't bear the weight of being something you're not. Live with integrity, mentor with integrity. Everyone wants a mentor who's real, not who's right.
Speaker 6:Sorry, Craig Rochelle. It's still your thing.
Speaker 3:That's a good word, though. Be a mentor with integrity. I love that. Well, listener, we hope you left encouraged today. We truly do.
Speaker 3:I mean, this has been one I think this is a record record length podcast episode, at least for now, because I still have really high hopes for next week, but we'll find out. We hope you left encouraged. If you missed everything in the last few hours, then hear this, you can mentor.