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Authentic, Authoritative, Unapologetic ServiceNow commentary by Cory "CJ" Wesley and Robert "The Duke" Fedoruk
Duke: All right.
this is our hundreds episode, Corey.
I,
CJ: 100.
Who could believe that
we would make it to 100?
It's crazy.
Duke: I thought I would, because
I remember when I wanted to start
the podcast and I was like, how
do you know if you've made it?
How do you know what you should do?
And somebody would be like,
it's going to take you about
100 episodes to figure it out.
And so here we are.
CJ: Fair enough.
Well, I would like to think that it
didn't take a hundred episodes to
actually figure out the podcast, but Yeah.
I've definitely grown
differently or a lot, right?
Like from episode one
to episode a hundred.
I mean, I remember I didn't
even want to do episode one.
and you really twisted my arm on
the day and I appreciate that.
Right.
Duke: Was it that you didn't want
to or you didn't think you could?
CJ: Uh, yeah.
So that one, right.
Like, I didn't think
I could, I was scared.
Right.
Honestly, I didn't think I had anything
to say to anybody wanted to hear.
That's really what it comes down
to when, you're thinking about
creating any kind of content, right?
Do you have something to say that you
feel like other people want to hear and
I just couldn't find that voice inside
of myself, that I thought other people
wanted to, uh, wanted to listen to.
Duke: Yeah, for me, , I'd always used my
voice and saying things out in the open as
a way to litmus test the ideas themselves.
Right?
Like the best way to find out if.
What I think is true.
iS to tell people what I think.
CJ: Well, that's true.
Duke: And they'll either get behind
me or they'll correct me in a hurry.
So
CJ: man.
I mean, that is, that's absolutely true.
Right.
And that's one of the things, I always
tell people too, is why I talk to a
lot of people who I disagree with.
Right.
It's because, I figure out in a
conversation, whether or not I'm right.
Like if I'm right, then talking to someone
I disagree with will allow me to try to
convince them in a way that allows me to
internally strengthen my own argument.
Right.
Or Yeah.
They will convince me that I'm
wrong and now I have a different
way of thinking about things.
And that means that I
was talking wrong things.
Right.
Nobody wants to do that.
Right.
, that's why I always , tell
people like, Hey, you don't
want to shy away from, conflict.
Right.
Just like you said, like you talk
to people, put it out there and if
you're wrong, they'll correct you.
Right.
And if you write, they'll reinforce it.
. Duke: It's episode 100.
Look, we had all these plans.
We want to make this huge blowout
episode, this massive production.
But I think we just look back
at, some of our best moments were
just like, hey, let's just hit
the record button and let's go.
Pick a broad topic and let's go.
And so the topic today is What
are we talking about today, Cory?
CJ: Push it to the limit.
Duke: THE LIMIT!
Yep.
CJ: we're going to talk about how you
take it, whatever it is and turn it
to 11, and I'm here for it, I think,
we can all be safe sometimes, right.
But you know, safe breeds a
certain type of complacency.
And I think we all need to be reminded
that there is an 11 on the dial.
Right?
And sometimes you need to chase it.
Duke: And if there isn't 11 on the
dial, you can make an 11 on the dial.
CJ: Yeah, man, I would get
some tape and a sharpie.
Duke: That's right.
So it's, it's a little bit vague.
It's a little bit unstructured,
but that's what we're doing.
Cause there's a lot of
people that need to go to 11.
I'd say, all of the people
coming into the environment,
.
It's, um, It's not easy.
You're going to have to work at an 11.
to get the success that you want,
CJ: Yeah,
Duke: success that
you're being advertised.
So go for that, but also go for a
lot more you know, nobody's going to
give it to you on a silver platter.
Right.
And here I am with 15 years of experience
and I'm, I, myself, I'm thinking like,
man, am I really doing the best I can?
Is this the best I can do?
And no, it totally isn't.
So this episode is For me, at
least it's useful for me as well,
.
CJ: now.
So, you know what, I, I love how
you started that out Because there
are a lot of people coming into the
ecosystem . And I really do think, , they
need to hear push it to the limit.
Right.
They need to hear, turn it to 11.
Right.
And there's some.
Great examples of folks who have pushed
it to the limit and who have taken
it to that , number 11 on the dial.
. And have seen it pay off for them.
Right.
So when I'm thinking about that,
I'm thinking about Kali, right?
Like Holly came into the
ecosystem and she was like, I'm
going to make this thing my own.
Duke: yeah, like, everything
was against her too, right?
She just decided.
She just decided, like, I'm gonna do it.
But then it was also , she
backed it up with action.
ask her about her golden
hours, ? Three in the morning.
She's up learning.
Cause that's the clearest moment
in her mind during the day.
She just get up.
The first thing she's
thinking about is service.
Now, the first thing she's doing
is service now whatever happens
the rest of her day, the best part
of her day is going to service
CJ: Right.
Like just amazing.
And then what else does she do?
She's like, yeah, no, I'm going to start
talking to people about service now.
And it's like, know, who are you?
I'm Kali and I'm talking
to you about service now.
that's enough right there.
Like knowing that, that
right there, that's enough.
Like you're going to take my call.
You're going to get on this mic with me.
We're going to have a conversation.
It's like, yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Because what's the worst that can happen?
You can call somebody up and they say no.
Okay.
So you call somebody else,
pushing it to the limit.
Just, go, go, go.
Like, you don't know, like, you
don't know what you don't know.
And a no isn't like a, isn't
a death sentence either.
Right.
Like a no is something that
just needs to be overcome.
Right.
And where's Kali now?
Kali's an MVP,
Duke: she started
CJ: Like boom,
Duke: Yep.
CJ: you know what?
I want to give another
shout out to Kalisha Moore.
Right.
Like Kalisha started in, in the last
year, I don't even know if she's been
in the ecosystem for a whole year.
And she, kicked it off and she,
she's found that, S and P D G group.
Right.
Like, she's got, they
have their own slack.
She's doing interviews.
They're doing webinars and
she's a rising star now.
you know, anyway,
Duke: Well, let's, let's break
down some of the lessons though.
, it's one of the things there's point
at the example, but maybe less obvious
is what is it that they did different.
with Kali, backed it up with action.
It wasn't, just the words service
now is going to be my thing.
It's the willingness to get up at 3 a.
m.
It's the sacrifice of
other parts of your life.
CJ: Yes.
Duke: Nobody's making extra time for you.
Right?
And I know the matrix had that line.
How can we take time
if we don't make time?
But I'm just like, I
don't, time isn't made.
It's always taken.
You must take time.
it like, you know what I mean?
It like the violence of it.
CJ: Dude.
Like, I, I got so many, , things
around like taken versus given, right?
power freedom.
these are things that have to be taken.
It can never be given to you.
Right.
And.
Honestly, like, so freedom is a great one
here, a lot of folks are getting into the
ServiceNow ecosystem for freedom, right?
But how do you get freedom?
If you think getting freedom
is sitting in a class and just
learning, you're not getting freedom.
You're asking somebody to give
it to you, You got to take that
learning in that class, right?
And then go and apply it.
. And that's, what we've seen folks
do who have been successful.
We've seen them say, okay, I'm,
in next gen or some other program.
And, I'm being taught these skills, I'm
going to take these skills that I'm being
taught and then go outside the program.
And turn them into practical examples,
of learning and not only that, right?
Like, I'm going to gather
other folks into this with me.
And so now I formed a unofficial
accountability group, right?
Cause I think that part
of it is important.
What I've seen Kalisha do and what
I've seen Kali do is that they didn't
just do this lesson by themselves.
Duke: that's right.
CJ: They got other people and
surrounding themselves with those people.
Right now, you've got
this accountability now.
So if you, if you're tired one day,
somebody else isn't going to be tired
that day and they're going to grab you and
drag you and they're going to pull you.
Right.
Like how many times have we seen that
montage in a movie, where the Navy
seals are coming out of the ocean.
Right.
And one guy's lagging behind and,
you know, somebody grabs like,
come on, you know, that's this.
So, so what I say, the next thing
is, is that what I've seen folks do
is, surround themselves with other
folks and create that accountability
network so that they can push forward.
Duke: And we'll have it
all in the show notes.
There's the ServiceNow community.
There's the SN dev Slack channel,
the, , ServiceNow developer discord.
, there's LinkedIn, man.
Like there's so many places
you can, and should interact.
I've said it over and
over and over again, too.
one of the things that people
kind of sleep on is just drill.
my dad was an infantryman, And
so when he wanted certain things
done, it had to be just so, right?
Here's how we brush our teeth.
We brush it this way all the time.
Here's how we make our bed.
We make our bed this way all the time.
And part of your morning routine was you
first do the bed, then you do your brush.
It was just so, right?
But then you drill it enough
and it becomes second nature.
You don't think about how
it's going to get done.
It just gets done magically because
you've just greased the groove.
Right?
CJ: like that.
I like
Duke: And, that's just the
way it works mechanically now.
And so I started off my
service now journey with drill.
It's like every morning come into the
office, get my coffee sit and read.
wiki, sit and read whatever, whatever
passed for community back in those
days, Um, and it was just like half
an hour of learning and as community
improved, it would be half an hour
of answering questions or looking
at questions that had right answers.
the point wasn't necessarily to,
it's not like I had a focus to it.
Like, I'm going to learn
CSM or I'm going to learn.
Whatever it was, just 30 minutes
of every day had to be dedicated
to this 30 minutes at least.
CJ: Right.
Duke: And then the dividend on
that is five years later, 10 years
later of 30 minutes a day, every
workday, stupid amounts of hours.
I saw Chuck Tomasi's post the other day.
He was marking his 5,
000th day in service.
Now
CJ: Yes, crazy.
Duke: imagine if you just learned
one thing every day and committed
to that and stuck to it and
drill and 5, 000 things learned.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: 5, 000 service now facts.
CJ: know that I cannot give you
5, 000 service dump facts, right?
I consider myself pretty
good at this, right?
But there's no way , but
imagine if you could.
Right.
Imagine if you could and do, I
just want to say this, right.
Cause you and I have talked about
your 30 minutes a day before.
Right.
And, privately, I've told you how
much I've admired that because
I wish that I could do, and
I haven't been able to do it.
And in fairness, I shouldn't
say I wish I could do it.
I can't do it.
. I just haven't put in the effort , to
actually make that one of my habits.
And that's why I admire that in
you, because I know how much effort
it takes to do 30 minutes a day.
And I see you do it effortlessly
and I see the results of that, man.
And I, I am just, yeah, I'm in awe.
. And so my point , to elevating
that is that it works.
People, minutes a day works.
Here we are.
, I'm talking to the guy who got
me talking on this podcast, cause
Lord knows I didn't want to do it.
, and part of that is just 30 minutes a day.
So be consistent and drill, right?
Drill, drill, drill.
I love that.
I love that.
Duke: I'll tell you what,
though, man, if I could go back.
We said this on the
Oscar podcast too, right?
But if I could go back, the one thing I
would radically change is taking notes.
I have lost a shocking, depressing
amount of knowledge for just not
having it written down somewhere.
Like, Oh shit, shit.
I did that.
I wrote a script that did that.
Exactly.
Where is it?
Like way back in the garbage
bin of the subconscious is
floating around there somewhere.
Yeah.
CJ: Absolutely.
Right.
And I've got, so I, at one point in
my career, , I took notes and I stored
a bunch of scripts, snippets and
stuff, and I still have those things.
But what I didn't do.
And what AI makes it a lot easier
to do now is I didn't comment
those script snippets, right?
So how do you find what you wrote?
If you don't have any comments,
Duke: Yeah.
How do you understand it?
You ever do that thing where you write
something like a week later, you look at
it and you're like, whose script is that?
CJ: right?
Especially if it's complicated.
What was that supposed to do?
Yeah.
Duke: So write stuff down, folks.
Write it down.
CJ: add context, especially if it's
cold, I mean, I haven't, I've never
actually tried this with actual,
human scale language notes, but
maybe you could actually get, chat
GPT and notes to your notes, right?
Like context sensitive notes to your
notes so that you can find them easier
to search in your, one note or whatever.
The other thing is that
people use notion, right?
Maybe, uh, I can add comments
for you there to make this
stuff easier to surface, right?
Because that's also important.
It's not just taking the notes, but
being able to find the thing that
you're, writing down is really important.
Duke: Yeah, once your notes gets
to a certain size, for sure.
CJ: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
, Duke: gotta strap, all of that.
Okay, we're back.
Another thing, I'm
totally off my track now.
CJ: reflect.
Yeah.
Duke: Any more than I already do,
because 1 thing that CJ and the
Duke has really provided me over the
past couple of years is that time
to reflect, , we're reflecting on
our careers, reflecting on our jobs
CJ: Yep.
Duke: for the audience's benefit, but it's
also calcifying stuff in our own mind.
CJ: Yeah, absolutely.
Right.
There's a predominant theory
in public speaking, right?
When you're talking to an audience that
they don't hear you unless you say it
three times, I seem, I also feel like
I don't internalize a thing, right?
Unless I reflect on it three times or,
to integrate it into my, consciousness
or body of work experience,
whatever you want to call it, right?
Yeah.
talking about it here with you,
Duke, that's one thing I write it
down again somewhere else, right?
As another thing, right?
And then, you know, however, whatever
the third thing become and then so what
happens in this is another and I can't
find the guy that I, jacked it from.
But, , he says, I write a lot of content
about the things that I'm thinking
about because when I do an interview,
I'm no longer doing an interview
where I'm thinking about the subject.
I'm just recalling the things that I've
Duke: Yes,
CJ: right?
Duke: yes.
And that's part of the
reason I participate so much.
, I do it mostly from the service now
developer discord now, but it's so
important to engage with other people's
questions because There's like the set
of stuff that you know for sure, right?
That you could just dead recall.
But , there's like such a potential
energy, that's a much larger set of
things you can know, but you won't
know until somebody asks you, and then
it's like blink, blink, blink, blink.
All the pieces fall into place, but
those pieces would have never fallen
into place unless somebody asked you.
So I've been so Motivated and captivated
by this idea that there's all these
things that I could know that I
don't because nobody's asked me yet.
CJ: Yes, yes,
Duke: And so I'm just
like, ask me questions.
Please ask me questions.
? CJ: Because then you got to go
in and you figure it out, right?
Or you know it, right?
And you're sharing it or whatever, right?
Like the whole nine yards.
Everything we just said.
Yeah, no, no, absolutely.
Do like, how do you know if
something's important unless
somebody's asking you about it and
how do you make that top of mind?
Actually your questions,
love the questions.
All right.
What else we got?
Duke: going to the next level.
we can talk about career planning.
CJ: Yeah.
All right.
That's a good one.
For me, I didn't plan my career.
I I kinda happened into it.
, but I will tell you that I
prepared myself to happen into it.
Right, and that sounds like next
level because it kind of is, what
I've done is that, I say, yes to
everything, you know, and you might,
this might sound familiar, right?
I said, there's a lot of
knowledge last year and ever
since, but it's the truth, right?
. Opportunity surface.
, and you then have a choice to make, right?
Are you going to say no to the thing?
Or are you going to say yes to the thing?
And what I'll say here now
is what I've said previously.
Like, I can't recall a situation
where I had a positive impact
to my life by saying no.
So there are choices that I've made.
. That were not successful, obviously.
Right.
Like everyone's going to have those.
. But there has never been a successful
choice that originated from a no.
So, you know, when an opportunity knocks,
when you're considering whether or not
you're going to do it, think about that.
The only way that you're going to see
a positive benefit is if you say yes.
it doesn't matter if you have a
career plan at that point, right?
Well, you should.
Elaine Duke's wanna talk more about that
'cause he's better at that than I am.
But to set yourself up for the
career plan, you gotta be open to
saying yes to opportunities, right?
And so just that's the base.
Duke: Everybody talks about
like, plan the career, but.
Someone told me once like the
older you get, the more you realize
like life kind of happened to you.
Right?
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah,
Duke: like you decided
your way through it.
but there's a certain sense of the plan
is to be capable, like you were saying,
build the capabilities and increase
the probability that when opportunity
knocks, you will be at home, waiting
for it and not out doing something else.
And so especially for the beginners,
they're under so much pressure.
Oh, you got to pick a niche.
You can pick ITOM, you can pick CSM, you
can pick SPM and niche down, niche down.
It's all about the niches.
Go, go, go, niche, niche, niche.
And it's like, they're not even
through the, they just got their CSA.
They haven't even had like a year's
worth of practical experience and
people are telling them to niche down.
And it's like, how, how?
CJ: So the only time I'd say
that you can niche down the
early is if you are an industry,
, specific subject matter expert.
Duke: yeah, that's
CJ: Right.
That is the only time it works.
Otherwise, like, you need a
broader base before you can niche
Duke: That's right.
There's three variables that
influence and where you niche, the
combination of interest, baseline
skill and, , proximity to opportunity,
CJ: Yes.
Duke: You get somebody who's, maybe
they've been a cabinet maker and they
don't like being a cabinet maker.
CJ: Yeah.
, Duke: they got the capability,
but they don't have the interest.
CJ: Right.
Duke: and , my journey
with SPM was like that.
I didn't have the interest, but I
did have the capability in terms
of like, I had enough platform
knowledge to learn it very quickly.
And I had the last variable, the
proximity to opportunity was so vast.
Like I had a customer that basically
, we don't want anybody else.
We want you and we'll pay you
this, obscene amount of money.
To learn and take this journey with us.
So it was like the opportunity
is what drove me into the niche.
But if I think about that from the
outside, what am I going to do?
Am I going to study SPM for
eight, for like eight months?
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: that on my own?
Not knowing that there's
payoff at the end.
CJ: Yeah.
Why would you do that?
Right.
Duke: I think, I think a lot of people
think it's just like, oh, I'm going
to study the now learning stuff.
I'm going to get my exam.
That's something you can
do in, two, three weeks.
if you're good academically, but
it's not being credible in the
ecosystem, not by a long shot.
CJ: Right.,
Duke: If I told you that credibility
baseline, credibility takes you
eight to 12 months to get , on any
of the niches, you'd be a lot more
careful about which one you picked.
You'd be waiting for somebody
to say like, Oh, we need this.
You'd be waiting to see the demand
before you went and paid that sacrifice.
CJ: Man, that's so true.
Because you would, value that
investment differently if you
didn't think there was a payoff.
Right.
Or if the payoff was uncertain.,
Duke: This is another thing about turning
it to 11 is you have got to divorce
yourself from the marketing bullshit
in the ecosystem in any ecosystem,
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: right?
If somebody is telling you, this
is how long it takes and it sounds,
, amazing, have a voice in your head
that says, but what if it's not that,
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Because I think a lot of people
want to believe that being an expert
in SPM is one cert away and you
get the cert by taking a course and
writing a multiple choice exam on it.
And that is not expertise.
CJ: I think there's a willingness
to sell expertise as something
that is easily attainable.
But when it's not, So,
there's novice, right?
That's the very beginning, right?
Then there's expertise where you've
walked down the road significantly.
Right.
And then there's a whole middle
road, ? Where you are competent.
. And I think the problem is, , is that,
you know, make yourself competent
in six months does not sell books.
Duke: Nope.
Months.
What?
Yeah, no, everybody wants that quick.
CJ: but months in that sentence,
but also competent in that sentence.
Right.
like, you don't want to go
to a job interview and say,
yeah, no, I'm competent.
Right.
Like, I'm great.
and so you sell great, people sell
great, they sell quick, they sell great
and they make things sound unrealistic.
Right.
But ultimately I think competence is
always easier to get than expertise.
. And competence is more than fine.
Right.
If you dress it up well.
But I just think, you know, I think
sometimes people flame out because they've
been sold the concept that expertise is
something that they can attain quickly,
and then they find that it's impossible.
But competency is something that they
probably could have obtained in that
same amount of time in which they
were looking to obtain the expertise.
And that is something
that you can build on.
And that is something
that gets you in the door.
Duke: And I will say once you found
your stride, I know it's it's so hard
right now, To be in the beginner's seat.
And, you've got the certifications.
You did everything
everybody told you to do.
And it's still like, find a job.
I don't get that 1st job.
Everybody's saying I need X
years of experience and whatever.
But as soon as you breach that
barrier, understand and believe that,
What coffee is for closers, right?
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah.
Duke: Is the term
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: you have to do the hard stuff and
the people who, get the hard stuff and
do it are the ones who get the rewards.
CJ: You know what?
You said something in there, that
I want to dive into because I was
always find that this thing annoys me.
the X years of experience, right?
And what I want to tell folks out
there is that you might not have X
years of experience, whatever X is,
but that's fine because X years of
experience is really just a proxy for
determining That's Competency, right?
But from for determining, you know,
whether or not you actually can
deliver the thing that's that exists.
And so the only thing that you
need to do to get past that X years
of experience gate is demonstrate
the competency that they're trying
to actually understand, right?
Like the competency that they're
trying to discover, right?
So Don't worry about if you've got,
two years, , of experience for an
entry level job, ? What they care
about is, can you do the job right?
Cause nobody cares about really
what you've done anywhere else.
They care about what you
can do for me here now.
. And they use all of those other metrics,
.
It's just basically as a proxy for
being able to demonstrate that you
were able to do those things without
them having to run like some kind of in
depth background check to understand it.
Duke: think about all the different
things that you could learn in
service now in five years, right?
Like me doing five years of
SPM doesn't make me One bit
better at doing itom board,
CJ: Right
Duke: not even a little bit.
And so everything they say about X
years experience, what they mean to
say is we don't know what questions
to ask, to find the credibility
and we've been burned before.
That's what it's saying.
And so having the hard
skills is not enough.
You've got to learn to talk
about the things that you can do.
And here's an example of the
right way and the wrong way.
The wrong way!
This is how you talk about your
ServiceNow skill the wrong way.
I use, , Business Rules, Client
Scripts, UI Policies, Flow Designer,
Schedule Jobs, What else we got?
JavaScript.
What else we got?
UI builder, uh, did I say flow designer?
Yeah, I use all of those to build
solutions as per customer requirement.
CJ: You
Duke: Now, Corey, what
can I do on service now?
CJ: No idea.
Yeah.
Duke: But if I say, hey,
listen, I replaced Salesforce.
At a global contact center, and we made
it much simpler so that the training
time went from 3 months to 3 days.
And we also racked up like, 100,
000 dollars a year savings on
licenses and we prototyped it in
a day and deployed it in 3 weeks.
Now, what can I do on service?
Now,
CJ: Yeah, now I know exactly
what you can do, right?
Duke: exactly.
Now, maybe you don't get a whiz bang
dragon slay like that, but you can
still, attach the thing to its outcomes.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: How many times have we said
that we should, I bet you outcomes is
the most common word if we count all
the words we've said on this podcast
CJ: Followed closely by value.
Duke: Yeah,
CJ: Well, but it's true though, Duke,
and I think it's because, Folks who who
are in the ServiceNow ecosystem probably
identify as techie in some way, And
techie folks love technology, right?
Like a lot of us.
Oh, yeah, maybe a little
bit, you know, and,
Duke: No, I mean, they clearly love
technology, but do you, do you, do you
think the majority of the newcomers
to the ServiceNow space would tell,
would label themselves as techie?
CJ: yeah, no, that's a good question.
Duke: I think it's a coin toss.
Now, I think five years ago, probably,
but I think with NextGen and RiseUp
and , the programs with the armed forces.
I, I don't think.
The majority are thinking
that they're technical.
CJ: Well, you know what?
that's a leg up, Than on the rest of us.
Right?
Who do, , consider
ourselves, , techie, right?
And I'll tell you why is that when
you approach ServiceNow from a
techie perspective, you elevate
the code, you elevate, platform,
you elevate the tinkering.
And you think less of, or don't focus
enough on often, , the outcomes and
delivering value for the business
in a way that they can use to make
money or reduce costs, that's what
ServiceNow is for ultimately, right?
To make money for the business
or reduce costs for the business.
And if you're coming into the ecosystem
and you're not thinking that this is
a tinker toy, then maybe you should
come into ServiceNow world Thinking
that this is a, a tool for businesses
to make money or reduce costs.
Right.
And if you can internalize that, then
you're already a leg ahead of a lot of
folks who are advertising themselves as
people who know flow designer, business
rules, client scripts, UI builder,
you know, workspace, et cetera, right?
Like, you know, and given that bulleted
list of the things that they know.
Versus someone comes in and gives
that other spill that you did, ? Duke,
where you talk about , how you took
this thing and did this thing and save
this amount and you did it in this
amount of time, , those sorts of words
that, folks are looking to hear because
ultimately service now is a two, two.
Make money for businesses or save
money for businesses that makes sense.
I'm on my way off base
Duke: I mean, it's really
the, core essence of it.
Like, when I do my, coaching
cohorts, the first couple
episodes, isn't jump into the tech.
It's, why are we here?
CJ: Right, right.
Duke: how did this service now
thing go from, you know, nothing
to the size that it is today.
CJ: Yeah,
Duke: And it's because it solves
a certain class of problems.
So we better be really clear about what
that class of problems is because , we're
not using this to make angry birds.
You
CJ: I'm sure somebody could at this point
Duke: exactly.
but would you want to right?
CJ: Right
Duke: and I don't, I, I know there's
some tension there because I always tell
people, hey, look back over your past
life or your hobbies or your crafts or
whatever in order to find motivation.
Of what to build, right?
To crank up your skill, and not a lot of
those apps would get put on a service.
Now, it wouldn't be worth it.
Right?
CJ: Right,
Duke: But it showcases the class
of problem that you can solve.
We talk about it all the time.
My soaping app.
Right?
So I make soap and you know,
there's always a risk that you
can waste your ingredients when
you're making a batch, right?
If I pour too much, I, I screw
up the ratio of the batch.
Everything's a waste.
CJ: Yeah
Duke: and also like, how
much of it do I have left?
So if I'm planning a batch, I want to
know if I have enough of everything
before I pour it out of the bottles.
So I use ServiceNow to control my raw
inventory, quantities and consumption.
And it helps me make better
supply chain decisions.
I didn't do it because some company
out there, some is going to put the
soaping production app on their instance.
No, of course they're not.
But they might need something that,
monitors and manages raw materials
CJ: yeah,
Duke: cough loaner laptops cough.
Yeah,
CJ: and, and all of that
stuff is, is very similar.
Sometimes you're just
switching out the unit, right?
Like the unit of the thing, right?
Is it a, , whatever the ingredients
are that go into soap, or is it a
mouse and a keyboard and a printer and
USB cables or what have you, right?
At the end of the day,
it's all the same stuff.
Right?
It's all tables and forms and so on
processes and so on and so forth.
Right?
Duke: I, I think for this year's
cohort for this is me pushing my limit
for when I do my, my next coaching
cohort this year on top of making
people pick their own capstone.
I think I'm just going to have a
suite of capstones that people can do.
Because I think people should just have a
library of problems that they have solved.
So,
CJ: Right.
Duke: do in my cohort, the
soaping inventory 1, but Holly
writer, she just did that.
used car lot process where they take
everything from the acquisition of
vehicles to the repair and detailing
and cleaning so that the sales people
can see what cars are ready to sell.
And then actually the cell records
go in service now, and you can
see which cars are in contention.
And then it's got all the financials
so they can see, like, how much margin
each rep is making and what cars are
best at selling or And so I'm like,
that's a great thing to model out.
When you're talking about acquisition
management, and then when you're talking
about managing the performance of a sales
team, that's a great problem to solve some
other, you know, I got another person , he
worked in medical, claims processing.
And so it was kind of like processing
the claim, like the person says, I use
these treatment codes, and I'm therefore
asking for this amount of money.
Well, do we need certain
pieces of evidence for that?
And, what actual money we're going to give
them and when we tell them how much money
actually, like, do they have responses?
Is there a reconciliation for that?
Like, there's all kinds of these
problems that if you just keep building
those out, you just get a feel for the,
yeah, like, what am I trying to say?
Corey?
like, who cares how a planer works
until you actually have to even out wood
CJ: yeah,
Duke: you have to have to shave exactly
a millimeter off of a piece of wood.
Then and only then is the
planer going to make sense.
CJ: you've got to do to think, I mean,
at the end of the day, like, you don't
understand how it all works until you
actually use the thing to make it work.
Right.
Like, you don't understand
how flow designer works until
you actually build flows.
, you don't understand how,
email works until you send one.
Try to explain, like, email to
someone who's never sent one.
Well, I'm going to write this
thing into like a screen and
then send it to somebody.
Right?
Like, you like, huh?
Like,
Duke: Send it to somebody.
CJ: right?
How, how do you get it to them?
Right?
You know?
And so ultimately, There is no substitute
for actually doing the thing , you
can read all the articles you want
to all the wikis, all the docs.
But if you do all of that without.
Getting the PDI right and banging on
the instance and probably getting to
the point where you need to reset that
thing a couple of times, if you are
doing all of this without getting to
that point, you're probably leaving
a lot of understanding on the table.
Right.
And notice, I didn't say knowledge.
I said, understanding,
Because that's the key.
That's what you want.
You want to be able to , understand
the process and the platform.
Right.
And you can't do that without doing it.
Duke: Yeah.
You know what?
I'm having a massive aha moment here
because in my first three coaching cohorts
from last year, it's a, it's one thing
to be lectured at by somebody who's been
there, done that a hundred hundred times.
. And so I put a lot of time and effort
into building some exercises, right?
You don't get the instructions.
You get told what you need to produce
CJ: Right.
Duke: and that puts one tool in context.
But for next year, it's going
to be a lot more like solutions,
like full on app builds
CJ: Okay.
Duke: I'm putting this out there.
This is me pushing it
to my limit next year.
, my coaching program is going to be.
The best thing money can buy or bust.
CJ: Duke, like, if anybody can do it, you
can, the knowledge that you have around
this and a dedication that I've already
seen you put into this, , if there's
anyone who can deliver on that promise,
like I have full confidence that it's you
Duke: So if anybody wants to be an
advisor for that effort, , . And
if anybody's interested in actually
being a part of that mentorship
program, , please reach out.
I don't have any of the details yet.
All I know is that it's going to get done.
This is my mission for 20.
This is me pushing it to my level.
CJ: push it to the limit, baby.
All
Duke: What about you, Corey?
What do you got up this
CJ: man.
I know you're gonna put me on the spot.
I knew you were gonna put
me on the spot, right?
Like, uh, you know, you don't put yourself
on the spot and you're like, yeah, no,
I'm not going out here on this limb alone.
I knew it.
I knew it.
I knew it was coming.
How I'd like to push it to the limit.
It's, yeah, Looking at the consulting
that I do differently, what I think the
market is missing, And what I know that
I bring to the table, , is really helping
folks get the most out of service now.
what I know natively is that when
I show up at a client, , I'm giving
them the ability to have someone
who understands both the technology
and how their business works.
And being able to merge the two so
that they get the best out of service
now to drive that business, right?
Whatever that business outcome
is, like, whatever that synergy
is, , I'm the person who can come
in there and I can talk to whatever.
, department head , or C level
if necessary, whoever, right?
Understand.
Okay.
So why did you actually buy service now?
Right?
Like, what are you actually
trying to do with this thing?
I'll tell you what, there are a
lot of people who can't even answer
that question, why did you buy it?
And what is this thing
supposed to be doing for you?
But that's the 1st question that
you actually need the answer, right?
Because when you get to a point, yeah.
Well, you've got this
platform out here, right?
You're doing things with it and you're
paying for it, you want to make sure
that is aligned with the, with the mission
of the business, whatever the mission
of the business, this often the mission
of the business is profit plus, right?
Like it's going to be, we need to
make money and we are also, and
we're making money in this way.
Okay.
So how can service now help you do that?
We don't know.
Right.
Nobody knows most of the time, right?
Like they've got here and they,
and you know, and things happen.
. So I like what I'm really good
at is making the business be more
intentional about how to use service.
Now, quote that, uh, so
Duke: Alright folks, there you have it.
That's episode 100.
You guys, and I just
thought just a quick note.
Thank you guys so much.
There'd be no business
getting to episode 100.
We wouldn't even made it to
episode 50 if we hadn't had
people watching but be telling us.
that, the thing is making
an impact on their lives.
Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you for all the likes and
comments and shares, and hopefully
the next 100 are even better.
Thanks so much folks.
CJ: thanks everyone again.
Right.
I just want to echo Duke.
I normally let him do the sign off,
but this is episode number 100 and.
there has just been so much
that this podcast has given me
over the last several years.
And really, I wouldn't be here in
this space if not for you Duke.
So I just want to say, I appreciate that.
But also all of, all of our
listeners out there and everyone
who I've ever bumped into and told
me, Hey man, I love the podcast.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
You have no idea how
much that means to me.
Duke: Thanks folks.
See you on the next one.
CJ: Bye bye.