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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
Lysa TerKeurst:
This is Lysa TerKeurst, and you're listening to Therapy & Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. Dealing with the aftermath of someone else deeply disappointing us can leave us hurt, weighed down with heavy emotions, and doubtful of God's justice. If you're wondering if it's possible to find the healing perspective you're longing for, I created a free resource just for you called “When the Person Who Hurt You Got Away With It: 3 Days to Moving Forward,” and it pairs perfectly with today's episode topic. Together we'll have space to acknowledge our hurt, ask some hard questions, and find the healing perspectives we need. Just click the link in the show notes to get this resource for free today. Now, on to the show.
Well, I promised we would be back to continue this really important conversation, and we were just talking about ... sometimes we can be in denial over the severity of a situation or we can be in denial over the fact that it's not just isolated instances or a mistake, but rather it really is a pattern. And sometimes we can live in denial of both of those things. Now, the main thing I want us to always remember is that none of all this that we're processing and none of it is to hinder our relationships, but rather we want to help our relationships be safe, respectful and mutually beneficial for both people in the relationship. So that's where we are going after the heart of this, and that is using discernment that's based in wisdom. So it's not just our opinion; it's not just like, "Oh, this person aggravates me sometimes," or "Oh, this person annoys me sometimes," or "Oh, this person is difficult sometimes."
This really is about looking and seeing am I pointing my life in the direction of wisdom or foolishness with the daily actions and reactions that I'm participating in, and also this person that I'm in this relationship with, wisdom or foolishness, which direction are they headed? So, Jim, I want to ask you to continue your thoughts here because if we are in a relationship where we feel like it's unhealthy, maybe the relationship is being pointed because of the dynamics between us in the direction of unwise or foolishness, or maybe it's that we are seeking wisdom, but the other person is consistently seeking what the Bible would say is foolishness, and there is this great tension that now we're like, OK, we're in a relationship where we can't keep going like this. So what else is on your list to suggest to people like, OK, you're in a healthy relationship ... now what? If I'm coming into your office and saying that, what advice are you giving me?
Jim Cress:
One of our favorite themes … You'll probably smile when I say this. As you said, what if we get to the point that we can't do this? And normally I'm going to say —
Lysa TerKeurst:
Let me anticipate what you're about to say.
Jim Cress:
Please. Read my mind.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I'm about to read your mind: “Lysa, is it ‘can't,’ or is it ‘won't’?”
Jim Cress:
Right, because it will —
Lysa TerKeurst:
You won't keep doing this.
Jim Cress:
It does feel like “can't.” We start with that: “I just can't do this.” But then to move to the boundaries, which we've done so much work on … It's what this very series is about. That is to say, “I won't. I can't and I won't go on and do this anymore.”
Lysa TerKeurst:
I think that's really crucial because it's at that point, where we shift from “I can't do this” to “I won't do this,” that the person is positioning themselves to have healthy boundaries and to keep them consistently because they've already decided boundaries are necessary. So I think that distinction is really important.
Jim Cress:
And we've said this … I feel like we're on a game show now, but yet we're not. We want a boundary — a healthy boundary. And a boundary without a consequence is …
Lysa TerKeurst:
A bad suggestion.
Jim Cress:
A mere suggestion. And just maybe, huh, a thought. But let’s say, “This is my boundary, and if you do this …” I do this little hamburger: The top bun is, “Here's what is OK with me in this relationship.” Bottom bun is, “Here's what is not OK and what I won't stand for.” With a boundary, you better have a consequence: not a punishment but a consequence. And if you do this, here's the consequence. That's adulting. That's basically adult living. And the middle piece of me (that little hamburger) is, “Here's what I'm willing to negotiate.” So when someone again shows you who they are, believe them. “Believe what you see,” we've said. Consider what other people in your life think about it. We've talked earlier about community. So if I'm here and we're in community — and we really are, the three of us — we can sit and say, "Hey, this is a sign that I see. What do you think?"
And you also know this person. You've been around the person I've been in relationship with. Listen — the Bible says in a multitude of counselors, there's wisdom. There's safety. What are other people thinking about it or saying? And then just how safe do I feel right now? People get scared. They get scared maybe in their own home if no one's around and they hear a noise. How safe do I feel? Just be honest with yourself. How safe do I feel currently in this relationship? And then after safety, do I feel like [inaudible] ... Here’s a word I made up: Am I in relational claustrophobia? Maybe if I'm honest, I just want to get out. I don't feel safe, and I feel trapped, or this person is manipulating and controlling.
And then finally on this, as far as a sign … It’s like a “check engine” light on the dashboard of your car. Where am I? As far as … Maybe I have put forth and clearly stated some boundaries, and the person has pushed, manipulated, gone around, cyclically been nice and then crossed my boundaries, or just simply ignored my boundaries. And remember that with the boundary — again, we've said it so many times — it's not to push the other person [as though to say,] “I boundaried you.” You don't boundary another person. It is to keep me safe. And I’ll throw in agape love there — my goodness — because it is my job is to seek the other person's highest good. If I cosign their unhealthy behavior, then I'm almost kind of an accomplice to their own sin. That's a way to look at it. That's not judg-y. But yeah, I don't want to cosign their behavior.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I think that's really a great point. So one thing that's occurring to me is … I'm listening, and I said I was going to bring the experience. Joel, you're bringing the theological depth. Jim, you're bringing all of the education you have as a licensed, professional Christian counselor. And I'm bringing the experience of really experiential wisdom of having gone through this. So I can tell you that one thing that gets me in trouble when I hear you say, “Really seek the wisdom of other people, and let other people speak into you …”
Jim Cress:
Safe people. People you trust who've proven that they are trustworthy to you. Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst: But it's my responsibility to tell that person the truth —
Jim Cress:
That's right.
Lysa TerKeurst:
— and not to leave out crucial details, hoping to minimize what's being done to me or what I'm experiencing in this relationship. And sometimes, in my brain, I have this real push and pull or almost tug of war. It's like I want somebody's wisdom, and I want them to speak into it, but I also kind of want to protect the integrity of this other person. I don't want to make them feel bad, or I don't want this other person … If our relationship gets repaired, I don't want this person to think so negatively —
Jim Cress:
That's a big one.
Lysa TerKeurst:
— about that person that then they can no longer support me being in this relationship. And so it's like, I'll say some things and want their wisdom, but if I'm not giving them the honest, full truth, then they can't possibly speak into the situation in the same way and tell me what they're seeing. Joel, I know you mentioned that it's really for the goal of unity here because that's what God's called us to. So it's not just so that this person and I can get along better. I mean maybe that's part of it, but it really is that we need to be following God's example of moving toward unity, not toward this frustrated, torn-apart place. Love is supposed to bring us together, not rip us apart. But in some unhealthy relationships, it's just not even possible, right?
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Right. Yeah. I think one of the important things as we talk about relationships is maybe even to take a step back … And I'll just be honest and say sometimes I have this thought in my mind, you all: It would be so good to run to the hills, run to the mountains somewhere, and just “peace out” from everybody. I’ll just be by myself with my wife, my kids, and just that's it. I don't have to deal with any other people. And then I'll realize I've got my wife and my kids … but I'm dealing with other people, and it's just like, life would be so easy if I didn't have —
Lysa TerKeurst:
If it weren't for people.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
— to do [all this] for people. And yet it dawns on me that one of the basic tenets of our faith, our Christianity, is that God is three in one. We have God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit in perfect unity, in perfect relationship. So much so that Jesus, in John 17:11, prayed this prayer. Listen, this is what He said: "Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me that they may be …” divided? No. “That they may be one, even as we are one” (ESV). And so it's talking about this sense of unity. And I like to think of unity not as a type of uniformity where everybody looks like carbon copies of each other and we're robots walking along. But think of a really great musical event that you go to and you've got the sound of the harmonies that are taking place, of people singing all of their different parts. And when they all come together, you actually get something way more magnificent than if you just had one part of this singing happening.
Jim Cress:
And they all start with tuning before they do anything else … tuning maybe the first-chair violin.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle: Because what happens if somebody's out of tune?
Jim Cress:
Yeah. Well, you've got discord, not accord.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Exactly. And so I think that's what's taking place here [in John 17]. It's important for us to see that unity is really a type of harmony.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I love that the Bible gives us where to set our heart or where to set our mind, where to tune our instruments or where to attune our relationship to. And that is biblical wisdom. So this isn't just opinions — this isn't just feelings — but this is God is saying, “This is wise, and that is unwise.”
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
So I would even add just a little bit more to this because sometimes we try to run away from some of the hard things that are in the Bible. And I kind of like … Let's take in the whole counsel of the wisdom of Scripture. And Jimmy talked about this earlier. Boundaries without consequences are what?
Jim Cress:
Mere suggestions.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
A mere suggestion. And yet sometimes we have created a picture of God in our minds as a God of suggestions — we think that He's just given us a whole plethora of suggestions. And yet what we find over and over and over in the pages of Scripture is a God who loves us too much in order for Him to just be a God of suggestions. He's a God of covenant, a God of loyalty, a God of consequence. And so the people of Israel, when they sinned, found themselves in the wilderness for 40 years. And so I think it's important for us to see that this concept of unity — and doing whatever it takes in order to maintain it — is intimately tied to boundaries and keeping them. Those consequences [of violating boundaries] are not something purely punitive, but they're actually meant to be exerted in a way that is gracious, that is to call [the person] back into the family.
Jim Cress:
Redemptive.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Redemptive. But redemption — true, authentic redemption — requires a heart change and a change of actions and behavior. And, Jim, one of the things that you say that I love is, “Trust is rebuilt by time plus believable behavior.” And so all of those things are at work in the family of God.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And it's not always possible to have unity in our relationships as much as we want that. I believe that we've got to first make sure that we are at peace with our heart and God's heart, and that unity [with God] is always possible because we can make choices. We can't control the choices of another person, but we can make choices [for ourselves] to have that unity between us and God. So, Jim, if I am coming to see you, and I'm saying, "OK, I am in an unhealthy relationship,” what can I do about it?
Jim Cress:
We start again, and we kind of come back to this theme: Believe what you see. Seek counsel from other people. Seek pastoral [counsel]. And maybe your small group and others, maybe a close, tight network of friends — seek counsel from them. Professional counseling is not the only show in town. To seek counsel from people, say, "What do you see?" And not just, “What do you see with this other person?” Also ask, “What do you see going on in me? Where do you see me out of congruence?”
Where you might say, "Yeah, I know I see this, but ..." It's like, yeah, maybe you're not in congruence with what you see. Find out. The assessment for me as a counselor is so big. To go in yourself and talk with, in this case, a professional counselor who can say, “Here is what I see …” We've said many times before: You’ve got to collect the dots, then connect the dots. Then boundaries sometimes can help you correct the dots and say, "Here's what I see."
Invite that person and say, "Would you be willing to come in and sit down with an[other person]?" You don't have to call it “marital” or “relational counseling.” Just say, “Let's get another set of eyes on us.” But if you go to one counseling session, that's a waste of time and money. It's going to do very little. Maybe have six sessions and say, "Let's have someone assess where we are." A manipulating and controlling person has never met a boundary they liked. They think it’s their job to cross that boundary. Salespeople are taught in sales that the sale only begins when the customer says no. We're bored till you say no. Now it’s “game on.”
But as a therapist, even the most controlling person I've ever seen cannot hold their breath through about six sessions. A good therapist will begin to draw things out like Proverbs 20:5 says. And that person will show their hand a little bit. We talk about narcissism: Feed the narcissist. We don't come at it and just control them or confront them, but eventually, in about six sessions, that person will begin to put a card or two on the table, so you're getting some help.
And then — this is so common, so simple — just ask yourself quietly in your prayer closet, in your car as you're driving, Am I honoring God, God's Word, my relationship with God? Even in a marriage, is this a mirage or a marriage? What's going on? [Marriage is meant to be] a picture of Christ and His bride. Sometimes we stop at divorce and asking if that is right or wrong. And do your own work around that. But [first there’s] the idea of saying, Is this relationship honoring to God? while you're seeking all the counsel … and sometimes a person quietly says, "I don't believe it is."
Lysa TerKeurst:
I think one important thing that you just said is maybe you're dealing with a narcissist, and then you made the statement, “Feed the narcissist.” Now I have to tell you, I know exactly what you mean by that statement because you've taught me in all the many, many, many sessions that we've done on a personal level. But [before those sessions], for me, I wouldn't have been able to identify … Sometimes it's like unhealthy patterns, but sometimes there are bigger issues here. And just a few years ago, I didn't know the term “narcissism,” or I had this little vague sense, like, Oh, that's somebody who's too into themselves or they're demonstrating pride or whatever. It goes so much deeper than that. I wouldn't have known the term “gaslighting,” where someone is saying to you ... You're saying the sky is blue, and they're saying, “No, it's actually red.”
Jim Cress:
And they know it's blue.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And they know it's blue.
Jim Cress:
The perpetrator, the narcissist, knows it's blue. They're trying to mess with your mind. They actually know your truth is right.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And then there's other terms like “codependency,” “enabling” … There were so many terms. I was initially just saying, “Ah, this really doesn't feel good in a relationship,” but I didn't have the proper terminology or tools to know how to deal with it. And so I think that's another benefit of going to a counselor and saying, "Educate me." Maybe I can't even, within myself, determine the severity of this. Is this just a selfish tendency that this person has, or am I dealing with something a whole lot more severe here? And obviously, having the counselor, you can ask, "What do you see in me? Do you see some things in me that I need to be aware of?" Because it can be a little more than just a hard dynamic inside of a relationship.
Jim Cress:
And, Lysa, what I love to do around that is have people come in … and this happens so much. Because we do this series called Therapy & Theology, people will come in and go, "We've seen you on that, and now I know — I can tell — my husband's a narcissist." And they're wanting a vicarious, indirect diagnosis by me, which I absolutely in ethics refuse to do. But what I can do is say just like I can open God's Word and do this (and Joel does this so well, and you do this so well, Lysa) … I can say, "Let's see what the Word says." I can say, “Here are — at 30,000 feet — some of the signs, symptoms and traits of narcissism or borderline personality disorder or other things … depression or codependency.” And I can say, if you had it like this, "Here's some of the things I see. What do you relate to?" See that a good therapist is not ... I believe a good pastor is not going to say, "Yep, they're a narcissist." They might say, "Here's some of the signs. What do you see?" And the person does their own self-discovery to get back. Because if I do that, then I'm actually being codependent as a therapist, doing their work for them and saying, "Here are some of the signs." You go back, but don't pathologize — or [as] Matthew 7 [says], don't go judge that person, but do be judicious in your mind. Be wise and say, "I’m seeing these signs." And people will look and say, "Well, the top five signs of narcissism — they meet four of them." I go, "Well, how does that impact you? What do you want to do with that?" Giving it back. And I believe it's what Jesus did with the woman at the well and so many [people]. “Tell me about that …”
Notice how He was so good there [in John 4 when He said,] “Tell me about your husband.” And He could have come and said, "Look — let's just cut to the chase. You're living as a sexually addicted woman." Well, He just didn't do that. I want to be like Jesus there and say, "Here's some of the things. Tell me about this." Even with a narcissist, feeding the narcissist can be, "Tell me some of your thoughts around this, and what do you think?" So you repeat back: “So what I'm hearing is you believe this, or you do this, or you think this is OK.” Well, yeah, they'll put their cards on the table.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's really helpful. Well, we promised you more, and I think that we delivered on that. And yet you may still have some more questions. So I do want to remind you we have got a whole series where it's me and Joel and Jim talking. It's called Therapy & Theology. I definitely would recommend that if you have questions around some of these topics that we've talked about, like: What is a toxic relationship? How do I know what narcissism is? What part does codependency play? And we mentioned gaslighting — what is that? In so many of the episodes, we have covered some of these deeper topics. So if you want to stick your toes into some of those issues, I encourage you to listen to some of our previous episodes.
But also I do want to encourage you to find wise counsel in your life. I certainly have found that in the two of you, [Jim and Joel], and I'm so grateful that you're part of my everyday life. And so I want you, [listener,] to have that as well. And when you're dealing with some of the patterns of behavior in an unhealthy relationship that may require more help, just like you would get a medical doctor involved if you needed more serious attention, I think it's really wise to get a Christian counselor who's trained in the specific area that you're wondering about: Is this possibly part of a dynamic that's feeding the unhealth of this relationship? Maybe in listening to us, you'll find that this isn't weird — to combine therapy and theology.
Jim Cress:
That's my goal. Seriously, I’ve said I want to take “weird” out of therapy. Just —
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Absolutely.
Jim Cress:
— take it and make it normal.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's right. And so we hope that this will be the appetizer but that you will also find some wise Christian counselors who can speak into whatever dynamic is feeding that unhealth in your relationship. So thank you for joining us. God bless you. And like we said at the beginning of the show, this is not about shoving other people away or labeling other people. This isn't about leaving people. This is about loving people well, and that's what we really want to do.
Thank you.