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In the last few months, the tectonic plates of United Methodism have shifted. Rob Renfroe is president of Good News for United Methodists and helps us see what is happening in the emerging schism of that denomination. It’s a sad time. Yet, there is the silver lining of hope.
More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a new podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript
Well, welcome to the more to the story podcast I am so glad that you all have come along I have exciting program today.
Andy Miller III: And I can't wait to share it with you really because we needed to continue to talk about things that are important in the life of the general evangelical wesleyan movement and that's generally people who are in my audience.
Andy Miller III: And I think we can learn a lot from what's going on in the United Methodist church.
Andy Miller III: But before we do that, I want you to know that this podcast is sponsored by Wesley biblical seminary where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches.
Andy Miller III: That means that we believe there are churches out there that are looking for biblically orthodox leaders who are trained in the consensual tradition of the Church.
Andy Miller III: And we want to ensure that those leaders are prepared to serve, and this means that we have a variety of programs from.
Andy Miller III: bachelor's and pastoral ministry master's degree mastered of any doctor of ministry, and we also have a several lay initiatives, including the Wesley Institute, which starts this Sep tember so you can go to web s.edu to find out more about that.
Andy Miller III: Also we're really thankful for bill Roberts a financial planner who comes at that discipline, from the perspective.
Andy Miller III: of a Christian worldview, and he helps people really plan for their retirement, particularly people who are serving in ministry, as they think about housing allowances and all those type of things.
Andy Miller III: So just encourage you to check out bill Roberts you can find a link to him in my show notes.
Andy Miller III: And finally i'm glad, as people are getting geared up for the fall season was a new small groups are starting Sunday school classes my study of the book of jude a six part study of this little book.
Andy Miller III: is so important, I think it's been something that's been important to put out, it has six sessions more of five hours of content, helping believers contend for the faith.
Andy Miller III: Once for all delivered to the saints, so you can check that out at my website Andy Miller, the third.com that's Andy Miller, I I calm.
Andy Miller III: Now, on to our program i'm so excited to welcome him a Reverend rob renfro who serves as a president of good news for United Methodist and is a retired elder in the United Methodist Church and the Texas conference rob welcome to the podcast.
Rob Renfroe: Thank you and it's a real joy to be here with you, I am recently retired.
Andy Miller III: Recently recently.
Rob Renfroe: yeah just a few months and I tell people with all that's going on in the United Methodist church and all the things we're trying to do to help churches all over the country I tell people if I wasn't retired I couldn't work this hard.
Andy Miller III: Guy oh i'll forgive me, I bet that was really hard to hear that word retired.
Rob Renfroe: No i've been looking forward to it i've needed a little more balance in my life and even with all this going on not having that constant pressure that pastors face of having prepared messages, as well as.
Rob Renfroe: You know, giving pastoral care and running a church it's really been.
Rob Renfroe: it's been good for me to slow down a bit, but things are we're going to get into it, things are really going on the United Methodist church right now and we were at a place that we needed to be we didn't get here, the way that we should have gotten here but there's.
Rob Renfroe: A lot of work to do and we're excited about what God is doing.
Rob Renfroe: birthing this new global Methodist church.
Andy Miller III: Right well i'm i've been so encouraged by you, through the years I have my family is very connected united Methodist renewal and I you don't know it, but i've read your articles.
Andy Miller III: i've watched YouTube videos of you and i'm.
Andy Miller III: I I Meyer your courage and i'm just really honored to get a chance to talk to you, I remember, even here, and one of the first messages I heard you present was one where you talked about.
Andy Miller III: Just knowing that you are going into a bit of a battle for orthodoxy, and I know some people might even be resistant to fact that i'm saying that that's the reality that we interview that but you said something about.
Andy Miller III: In eternity the I can't remember how it goes showing your scars like where your scars.
Andy Miller III: yeah and I think that there's something powerful about that that we are going to have in part i've been really i've been studying the Book of jude a lot lately.
Andy Miller III: yeah and there's this interesting thing, where he said I I intended to write to you about something else, this salvation we share, but I had to call you to contend for the faith which in a sense, is, I had to call you to get into the fight.
Rob Renfroe: Well it's interesting I was really excited when I heard you announced that you've done this series on jude that may be the most relevant.
Rob Renfroe: Book of the New Testament to where we are right now, and it is so interesting because people are really denying who Jesus is.
Rob Renfroe: They have adopted, but today we would call a progressive sexual ethic yeah.
Rob Renfroe: And and it's interesting there that those who are undermining the message of the church are referred to as these dreamers.
Rob Renfroe: there's their sense of authority or their dreams their personal.
Rob Renfroe: Experiences their imaginations their sense that God is doing a new thing that the Holy Spirit are revealing something new.
Rob Renfroe: When you ask well how do you know this well, I have this dream I have this feeling so it's funny you know there's nothing new under the sun right.
Andy Miller III: Oh me.
Rob Renfroe: Know right what they were dealing with in the early Church is exactly what we're dealing with here.
Rob Renfroe: And it's really interesting we tried to be gracious to people who see things differently, but man in that book The names that those are undermining the faith are called you, you would probably get blocked on social media oh.
Rob Renfroe: yeah those terms to describe people who are undercutting orthodoxy today.
Andy Miller III: yeah jude the brother of Jesus would certainly be cancelled.
Andy Miller III: He would certainly.
Rob Renfroe: yeah but.
Andy Miller III: I like how you highlighted, he says they do this on the authority of their dreams.
Rob Renfroe: yeah I mean.
Andy Miller III: This is clearly taking our experiences exalting them and that's exactly where you know where we are.
Rob Renfroe: Well, we talked about this long as you want I don't want to keep you from what you want to get in that's good that that is exactly right, you know what is the basis of our authority.
Rob Renfroe: And as you said, jude says contend for the faith once and for all, delivered to the saints.
Rob Renfroe: And that was the faith that Jesus taught that the apostles taught and that was revealed in the Old Testament That was the faith once and for all, delivered to the saints.
Rob Renfroe: And they were on the basis of their inner feelings and their their self generated beliefs were saying god's doing something new he's giving us a revelation that overrides maybe.
Rob Renfroe: My contradicts what has been revealed in the past, and that is exactly when you talk with progresses, and even centrist in the United Methodist church god's doing something new he's revealing too well how do you know that.
Rob Renfroe: Yes, well, I just I just feel that he is I mean if these are like new gnostics they have.
Rob Renfroe: of enlightened knowledge that the rest of us for folks who just read the Bible and trust the Holy Spirit to reveal to us what has been told to us in the past they have this knowledge that goes beyond anything that we mere mortals have been made privy to.
Rob Renfroe: And man oh man when your sense of authority is your feelings your dreams your sets.
Rob Renfroe: That should really set bells off that that you are in great danger wandering away from the faith once and for all, delivered to the city.
Andy Miller III: And those words are incredibly powerful the faith once for all delivered to to real quick I can talk about jude for a long time.
Andy Miller III: But I maybe we should, the first thing is Michael green the apologists he wrote commentary at the beginning of his career academically and then at the end toward the end of his career on jude and, second, Peter, and he says.
Andy Miller III: He has this long list of sins and heresies and he says, as long as these things remain the letter of June will remain uncomfortably burning Lee relevant.
Andy Miller III: And then the other one is.
Andy Miller III: Even though I don't I couldn't really find like how they how he made this claim so it's not a good academic substantiation but he says i'm William Barclay says that he believes in period, this is encouraging in periods of revival, the Book of jude is often rediscovered.
Andy Miller III: wow interesting.
Andy Miller III: Here you and I are talking, I mean obviously you've studied it and then.
Andy Miller III: I know seedbed has another book coming out in June, I have this six week study and I think that with and sock also has a.
Rob Renfroe: Study of jude coming out you don't need me to give you a recommendation, but y'all.
Rob Renfroe: get into this study you got a really appreciate having a basis for understanding what's going on in our culture and our church and how we can be people who are gracious but at the same time.
Rob Renfroe: We can do what God tells us to do, and that is to contend for the faith and and and we'll get off of it after this but what's interesting is that book is not address to the leaders or the teachers or the pastors.
Rob Renfroe: and churches that he was writing it's addressed to all believers, you are supposed to know the faith you're supposed to be able to defend it you're supposed to understand when it's being undermined, and when it's under attack, and you are expected to step up.
Rob Renfroe: and be a champion of the faith once for all delivered to the to the St so that's not just our job it's everybody's job.
Andy Miller III: So here's an idea i'm gonna i'm so excited talk more about jude i'm going to.
Andy Miller III: Anybody who's listening to this i'm going to have 10 people i'm going to make.
Andy Miller III: Give 50% off of my my my studies, the first small groups, you get if you do it for a small group, you get five videos and the discount code is going to be rob our Ob.
Andy Miller III: or 11 people 10 people.
Andy Miller III: will see if anybody does it.
Andy Miller III: Okay, so i'm going to make that alright so rob tell us before.
Andy Miller III: i'd like to i'd like to hear just a little bit about you, before you got into the good news, what led you there and how did you arrive at this place.
Rob Renfroe: Well i'll take you way back I grew up in a united Methodist church, I was confirmed at the age of 12 and.
Rob Renfroe: And was in church all the time went to Sunday school parents raised me in church and I would say it was kind of a typical Methodist church, and by that I mean.
Rob Renfroe: What I heard is the point of Christianity has helped make us better people and because of Jesus were supposed to be good and be kind and be moral.
Rob Renfroe: What I didn't really hear was the offer of a personal relationship.
Rob Renfroe: With Jesus what I didn't hear was, you know that basic message that all of a sudden all fallen short, all of us need to confess, our need for a savior etc and.
Rob Renfroe: i'll make this real simple, this was interesting that I in high school begin to ask her two questions in one question was how can I be certain that i'm going to go to heaven.
Rob Renfroe: When.
Rob Renfroe: I die and.
Rob Renfroe: I didn't really know and I thought you know i've got to be a really good person, and then I was also thinking about college and her great news, and that was a college that they graded on the curve college was really, really hard.
Rob Renfroe: And you.
Rob Renfroe: But you didn't have to make 100 you'd have to make a 90 to get a you just had to beat out most of the other students.
Rob Renfroe: Yes, was really good because I had no athletic ability, I was pencil next, and so I had no romantic life, so I had a lot of time to study.
Rob Renfroe: And I always did really well in school, so I thought i'm going to be okay I just need to be you know work harder be better than the other students, when I go to college.
Rob Renfroe: So that kind of translated over in my mind Now you can listen to How crazy, this is so, the way that it worked in my spiritual life was will we know nobody's going to make 100.
Rob Renfroe: phone God yes okay nobody's going to be perfect.
Rob Renfroe: Sure, so how can I be certain i'm going to go to have.
Rob Renfroe: Well god's obviously going to have to care about right because nobody's going to make 100 nobody's.
Rob Renfroe: trying to get that close.
Rob Renfroe: So really all i've got to do is beat out the others I just got to be out the others, you know who are competing with me for going to heaven I don't know if you have to make top 80% top 10% what are you going to do.
Rob Renfroe: yeah but, and then I started looking around at the competition I looked around at other teenagers, they were drinking smoking sex and.
Rob Renfroe: Some are stealing Kirsten I didn't do any of those things I thought.
Rob Renfroe: And that was just our church youth group okay.
Rob Renfroe: I thought I think i'm going to be okay.
Rob Renfroe: yeah God takes the top 20% I really feel like i'm good top timbers if I still feel like i'm going to be all right.
Rob Renfroe: Not realizing that spiritual pride, which I was guilty of is the greatest of all sins, because it keeps you from acknowledging.
Rob Renfroe: Your sinful this your need for saviors the idea that you know you can save yourself, ultimately, the only thing that can really keep you from out of the kingdom.
Rob Renfroe: So then, by god's grace, we had a summer youth director that back i'm old enough that we didn't really have youth pastors we had some.
Rob Renfroe: Nice directors who came and this guy was nothing in the world like we wanted, he was so straight and I won't go into all of that, and we thought oh my gosh you know we didn't get somebody who's cool.
Andy Miller III: Now fine yeah.
Rob Renfroe: yeah I can describe it, but.
Rob Renfroe: But it took me a few weeks, just a few weeks to realize that this guy knew God.
Rob Renfroe: wow and I did not wow how I knew that I don't know, but I could see it.
Rob Renfroe: And the only thing i'll say to my credit.
Rob Renfroe: Is that when I saw the real thing I recognized it.
Andy Miller III: And I wanted it for myself.
Rob Renfroe: I was a little older than most of the kids in the youth group I was working at a restaurant at night, so I didn't get to do all the things that they did that summer, but I came a few weeks later, and I remember, they were singing.
Rob Renfroe: And I can see now that those kids knew God.
Andy Miller III: wow.
Rob Renfroe: Those bad kids that were reacting to them Okay, they were.
Andy Miller III: better than just yeah.
Rob Renfroe: yeah every man was like God, this is not right okay I haven't done any of the things they've done i've been like good kid and I don't know you haven't these bad kids get to.
Rob Renfroe: die, so I spoke with eddie His name was any will will be forever grateful and and pretty much so many words and he said rob there's a difference between being a good kid being god's kid.
Rob Renfroe: wow and even good kids have sense that they need to return have asked forgiveness floor and they need to save her.
Rob Renfroe: And so, he led me to pray to receive Christ, as my lord and savior and so, then I began to have this personal relationship with Jesus, so this is finally ties in with your question.
Andy Miller III: that's good yeah.
Rob Renfroe: So immediately, I began to understand that there are many good folks in United Methodist churches that were never hearing this basic message of you need a savior you're here, not just to be a good person.
Rob Renfroe: Yet you're here to be in personal relationship with Jesus that, then you know moves you forward into everything that the Christian life is.
Rob Renfroe: And so that was part of my calling I wished that I had a lightning bolt you know, and I kept waiting and praying for that, but finally my call this is like the windiest call story ever.
Rob Renfroe: had my call was God.
Rob Renfroe: I don't know what preachers do.
Rob Renfroe: And I don't know if I can do it well, but I know there are a lot of people in the United Methodist church that need to come to know Jesus so unless you stop me.
Rob Renfroe: That but i've been going to do.
Rob Renfroe: And then you know God confirmed that.
Rob Renfroe: Along the way so it's really interesting and the at the very same time that I knew that I wanted to tell people about Jesus God put in my heart that I was supposed to do something to help.
Rob Renfroe: Our denomination.
Rob Renfroe: And those were two yeah.
Rob Renfroe: halls early early that came almost simultaneously I got to tell people about Jesus, a man this denomination that has such a great history.
Rob Renfroe: Such a great heritage, this needs help, and so I went into the ministry immediately began to.
Rob Renfroe: have opportunities to speak and invite people into relationship with Christ, and then I began to have opportunities to work, not only in what we call our annual conference are part of Texas, but then nationally.
Rob Renfroe: To help our denomination become grounded and rooted in that faith once and for all, delivered to the saints that we were talking about.
Andy Miller III: wow it's so interesting, like you, you wouldn't have probably known at the time, what that what that call you say it's like not that significant of a call like are not that dramatic or whatever, but.
Andy Miller III: boy that has been lived out by your life, I mean, who would have known that in that moment, and you thought i'm just sharing with United Methodist.
Andy Miller III: But that that very specific.
Andy Miller III: call is unique now one thing we help, I think, from my audience.
Andy Miller III: Many ways already united Methodist would understand the nature of the structure, but I think a lot of people who are outside that system, maybe who come from a congregational system.
Andy Miller III: yeah my you know my traditions and Salvation Army, which is more of a military system.
Andy Miller III: I don't understand the nature of what you just said with conference like a conference, some people might think oh I go to a conference that happens, I don't.
Andy Miller III: Tell tell us about that a little bit of the political structure.
Rob Renfroe: It gets it gets very complicated and more complicated than it needs to be so.
Rob Renfroe: The basic building block organizational it's what's called the annual conference this comes from wesley's time and Wesley would call all of his preachers together once a year for an annual conference.
Rob Renfroe: They were at the early days circuit riders and then, when they came over to the colonies, you know it covered a big geographical area.
Rob Renfroe: But they would come together once a year for an annual conference, they would give a report on all the work they had done.
Rob Renfroe: Then they would have time of worship, they would have time of teaching and even theological debate and it was a very enriching time so as here in the US as methodism expanded with the you know colonies and then with the growing United States.
Rob Renfroe: It became impossible for all the Methodist pastors to come together geographically once a year, and so they began to break up into different annual conferences.
Rob Renfroe: And so, in the State of Texas, for example, we have five annual conferences, because we're big state, we have a lot of methods up in New England all the New England States together or when annual conference.
Rob Renfroe: My geographical area smaller number.
Rob Renfroe: Now, in addition to that we get together, united Methodist all over the world.
Rob Renfroe: And I interestingly about 40% of united Methodist now live in Africa awesome so we come all together once every four years for what's called in general conference and that's where we debate.
Rob Renfroe: How we're going to live together what our positions are going to be on different issues and kind of that for all of our well, not all but a good deal of the battles that we've had to fight to keep the church orthodox that's where they have gone.
Andy Miller III: So there's a form of democracy within you know you know I met there's not like pure democracy, but there is this governing body that functions at this digital conference level and then that's handed over to bishops to an end, people to implement in the executives of that is that.
Rob Renfroe: Right yeah so each annual conference has a bishop.
Rob Renfroe: Okay, and so.
Rob Renfroe: You know Bishop should be a a shepherd the real task is to teach our doctrines and to protect our discipline to make certain that people follow the rules of our church.
Rob Renfroe: Very often becomes an administrative task it can be an overwhelming job, but the issue part of the issue is as the Church has drifted further and further away from orthodoxy.
Rob Renfroe: We have bishops who do not uphold our classic Christian faith.
Rob Renfroe: Right they're much more liberal much more progressive and I can go into it, we get.
Rob Renfroe: That we get complicated and make.
Rob Renfroe: Nice by using, but we have a very difficult time holding our bishops accountable.
Rob Renfroe: they're accountable to each other and they, in particular, are accountable to other bishops in a particular.
Rob Renfroe: geographical area, so when an entire area becomes progressive the bishops who are supposed to hold another Bishop accountable all believe the very same thing, so, for example, though our.
Rob Renfroe: Book of discipline which is I hate calling a rule book which tells us what we've agreed on how we're going to live together yeah says that we do not ordain practicing gay person okay if you're actively gay.
Rob Renfroe: yeah in a relationship or intend to be we don't or day new and we don't marry gay persons.
Rob Renfroe: church, open to all.
Rob Renfroe: welcoming of all believe every person is sacred words don't believe that the practice of homosexuality is any worse in and then any of our other sins, but we have a married lesbian Bishop.
Rob Renfroe: Right, you would say How is that possible well we like bishops by geographical areas and so she was elected out West while she was married.
Rob Renfroe: And then the other bishops who affirm this liberalized sexual ethic they consecrated her as a bishop when they shouldn't have.
Rob Renfroe: Our Supreme Court, which is called the Judicial Council said hey Bishop shall shouldn't do that we need you to go back and undo it.
Rob Renfroe: And that was several years ago and they've just thumb their nose at our judicial Councils ruling and there's no way to hold them accountable.
Rob Renfroe: So that's part of our problem that's why we've come to this point of needing separation we've lived with different opinions for really literally 50 years.
Rob Renfroe: Yes, but now we have different practices and we have no way to hold bishops accountable, let me say one other thing they.
Rob Renfroe: Yes, good question, we often talk about sexuality that's the presenting issue.
Rob Renfroe: Right right right the deeper issues is that the United Methodist church are pastors or bishops.
Rob Renfroe: Are lay people are deeply divided about whether or not the Bible is god's word.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Rob Renfroe: and actually it's hard to say and hard to hear and maybe hard to believe we're actually very divided on who Jesus is.
Rob Renfroe: Whether he is the way the truth and the life.
Rob Renfroe: where he is that name, by which all men and women must be saved, or whether he's just one of many options.
Rob Renfroe: So sexuality gets all the press, because that's what we vote on, but the real issues are the deeper issues about the scriptures and about who Jesus is and then our bishops not enforcing our policies and our doctrines but allowing everyone to do what's right in their own.
Andy Miller III: wow that is such a great short summary I know it takes a while to get there, but that's in part, what we're dealing with in and really it's a doctrinal issue.
Andy Miller III: As you're talking like when you talk about scripture it's not just like some people would call the conservative, you know orthodox group biblical cyst.
Andy Miller III: But it's more about I think revelation like the document that God has indeed revealed himself clearly so that we can know him.
Andy Miller III: So that revelation.
Andy Miller III: creation as another doctrine that's.
Andy Miller III: Not understanding and i'm glad to hear you bring up the krista logical point as well that this really is like talking about.
Andy Miller III: The nature of who Jesus is and that might even then i'm not saying that everybody who would be on a different side than you would not affirm the resurrection but I attended.
Andy Miller III: A united Methodist seminary and the Liberal direction, and I remember being in a classroom where I was the only person in the class you'd believe that Jesus was.
Andy Miller III: physically raising the dead.
Rob Renfroe: So any any listen I.
Rob Renfroe: This has come to a head in the United Methodist church I have put out six videos that okay break it all down.
Rob Renfroe: And the response from quote centrist and progressive is rob you're just cherry picking we don't know anybody who doesn't believe in the resurrection we don't know anybody who doesn't believe in the Virgin birth.
Rob Renfroe: And either they don't get out much.
Rob Renfroe: or they're not telling the truth, because what you just said as shocking, as it seems that.
Rob Renfroe: that's reality we have united Methodist pastors who don't believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus, and they make it known and no one says anything we had there's this whenever I want to punish myself I go on to Facebook, the you m clergy Facebook page and read what's there.
Rob Renfroe: You know man if the Catholics want us to do penance That would be a good way of punishing yourself and on Good Friday, you know Methodist pastor went on to that Facebook page and wrote a long diatribe about why he does not believe that God sent Jesus into the world to die for our sins.
Rob Renfroe: um that this is an odious doctrine and makes God into a monster.
Rob Renfroe: etc, etc, and others just pile on, thank you for saying the truth, thank you for telling what needs to be told, etc, etc.
Rob Renfroe: yeah and you know when others, especially the centrist who want to say oh you guys you're cherry picking you're just.
Rob Renfroe: You know you find a few outliers and then you, you know expand and act like we're in real trouble years I unsolicited here you are saying no at seminary i'm the only one in the room who actually believes, and what is the.
Rob Renfroe: Most important Christian truth that Jesus Christ was if Christ be not raised from the dead then your faith is in vain.
Rob Renfroe: Right right and so yeah we've got not only all these problems we've got folks who just denied the reality of where we are in, are telling all of our people everything's okay.
Rob Renfroe: And in the future, everything will be okay just let those traditionalist leave and then we can all live together in peace, and of course it always been prophets who've told god's people peace, peace.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Andy Miller III: There shouldn't be interesting you bring up the idea of centrist now, this is a helpful thing, because what i've found to be interesting is that often and this isn't, just like in the United Methodist church, of course, like.
Andy Miller III: This you know, like part of my angle.
Andy Miller III: Is a lot of my audience is connected to Salvation Army and we are about 40 years behind united Methodist church and on these discussions, and what have we have a we have something that come up as up our sleeves, so to speak, is that we have this autocratic system where.
Andy Miller III: yeah one international leader who can enforce the real the doctrine, now that those people that person has to do that and.
Andy Miller III: see if that happens, but there are always people who say, well, I there there's these extremes Andy i'm i'm in the Center.
Andy Miller III: know, obviously.
Andy Miller III: way out to the right, and there are people way out to the left.
Andy Miller III: But let's just try and let's just agree to disagree and let's all get along.
Andy Miller III: what's the problem with that rob.
Rob Renfroe: Well, I once wrote a little article and I commanded the quote centrist I said hey guys really great job of naming yourself okay.
Rob Renfroe: You sound so reasonable and you immediately have marginalize me and others who old.
Rob Renfroe: hold to the Orthodox Christian faith, I said you're not at the Center of what the Bible teaches.
Rob Renfroe: you're not at the Center of 2000 years of Christian teaching you're not at the Center of the global.
Rob Renfroe: Christian church just because you are between two groups that are willing to admit their differences and find it out just because you're between the two of us that doesn't put you at the Center of anything except to fight.
Rob Renfroe: It means you're finding a way to dock it.
Rob Renfroe: So I but but good job i'm calling yourself a centers so you know, the question is that there's there's substance and there's whether I call it spirit or style, what do you believe, and there can be people who have an Orthodox faith who just don't have.
Rob Renfroe: The sounds pejorative I don't mean that they don't have.
Rob Renfroe: A heart for the fight.
Rob Renfroe: Okay it's just their nature.
Rob Renfroe: How do we connect you know I always say that there's I wrote a book called the trouble with the truth and I tried to talk about how.
Rob Renfroe: Jesus combined grace and truth and we're supposed to do that, and some of us are great answers, by nature, and some of us are true thurs by nature.
Rob Renfroe: And you know if your truth and by nature, you gotta be really careful because truth.
Rob Renfroe: can really be brutal if that's all that it is one example i've heard is you know salt we're supposed to be solved the earth salt is sodium chloride and chlorine truth by itself yeah it's good at cleaning things up okay.
Rob Renfroe: yeah but it's got this pungent odor.
Rob Renfroe: And if you get too much of it undiluted it can kill you Okay, so you know the great thing is the person is brutally honest enjoys the brutality quite as much as the honesty okay.
Rob Renfroe: And that's not who we are to be.
Rob Renfroe: Right okay so truth by itself can really be brutalizing and hurtful but the grazers they're like the sodium and what's interesting about sodium is that you never find that alone in nature, it always has combined with something.
Rob Renfroe: And so grazers you know they want to combine they want to connect they want to reach out and bring people close and they think you know if only people knew how much they were logged if they only knew that we love.
Rob Renfroe: God love them and they would straighten up and believe the best for themselves, but the problem is when your nature is to connect you sometimes lack that discernment that says wait a second I can connect with people but not connect or accept.
Rob Renfroe: Wrong beliefs and wrong practices lifestyles and so we need each other Okay, and you know if you if you don't have a heart for centers whatever the sin is maybe you don't need to speak your truth, because you're probably going to do it in a way that's hurtful.
Rob Renfroe: And going to push somebody further away, but if you don't have discernment.
Rob Renfroe: If you're not willing to stand up for the truth, because you so love everybody and no way anybody's feelings to be her.
Rob Renfroe: That don't think that you're some special wonderful Christian you're just lacking and courage okay you're just unwilling to say what needs to be said, and sometimes the most loving thing in the world that you can do is tell the truth.
Rob Renfroe: that's why i'm going to get off this rant in a minute, but that's why Jesus tells the woman, neither do I condemn you then truth go and sin, no more.
Rob Renfroe: You remember the guy That was a paralyzed for 38 years near the pool.
Rob Renfroe: Okay Jesus, you know Jesus, what do you want me to do for you, and he starts making these excuses I can't get what goes, nobody will in Jesus yes and i'll heck man get up get your mat move on.
Rob Renfroe: And so, he heals the guy gets him grace, this is this is good, then just a couple hours later Jesus runs this guy down at the temple he's having the first good day of his life and 38 years and what does Jesus say to him stop sending or something worse may happen to you.
Rob Renfroe: wow it's like Jesus let the guy have a few good minutes you know but Jesus says here's the truth man you think you had a bad.
Rob Renfroe: There by that poor for 38 years straight up or that's going to be a day in the park compared to what eternities going to be for you.
Rob Renfroe: So Jesus combined grace and truth and we don't get to choose to be truth there's only or racers only if we're going to be like Jesus we've got to bring the two together.
Andy Miller III: awesome I love that bringing together grace and truth now you're part of your movement that you're you're the President of good news, united Methodist.
Andy Miller III: Is it has a tradition of that could you I know this could be a whole show, in itself, could you outline a little bit about the history of what the good news group is.
Rob Renfroe: yeah so the good news was begun in the late 60s by United Methodist pastor and journalist by the name of chuck Kaiser and.
Rob Renfroe: He saw even then that the United Methodist Church was drifting theologically and politically, because the Church in the past was even much more involved politically in the past, united Methodist I.
Andy Miller III: Believe so yeah.
Rob Renfroe: I O our boards and agencies are proclaiming that some of the leftist even Communist revolution is going on.
Rob Renfroe: And I were part of god's kingdom breaking in and liberating I mean it was really, really wild.
Rob Renfroe: And so, he saw this and he talked to the editor of the main method is newspaper and said, nobody speaks up for what I am many people believe.
Rob Renfroe: And so, he said, well why don't you write an op ED Okay, and so he did.
Rob Renfroe: And the reaction to that was a really positive by many a Methodist united Methodist who felt like nobody was speaking up for them, and that did two things first of all, it meant that those, whether we call them evangelicalism people are comfortable that word, some people are.
Rob Renfroe: I don't mean it politically but theologically.
Andy Miller III: Right right.
Rob Renfroe: They saw I may not have to leave, so this happened, I long while ago, and so a core of evangelicalism after this we're able to stay put rather than thinking it's hopeless and i've got a run off so they begin to hold conferences, not the annual conferences that.
Rob Renfroe: ran right back, but like gatherings and people were greatly encouraged and then they started to realize that they could organize politically and have some impact on what our policies were.
Rob Renfroe: And so good news began to lead the way in that regard, now there have been other.
Rob Renfroe: Traditional Evan jellicoe renewal movements that have come for different reasons, all good confessing movement is a really good one.
Rob Renfroe: there's another group called you an action that we're grateful for, but we have worked together.
Rob Renfroe: All these different groups and so over time, what has happened is good news we try to do a good job of actually telling good stories that are going on in the United Methodist church, we want to celebrate what God is doing and there's much.
Rob Renfroe: That is really good here in the US and certainly all around the world we're very, very grateful for that.
Rob Renfroe: We put out of a magazine six times a year and our editor Steve beard does a spectacular job of getting those stories out, but we also have felt that it's our.
Rob Renfroe: ministry to highlight, where there is unfaithfulness going on and to hold those in places of leadership accountable and then.
Rob Renfroe: Along with these other groups, but I would say good news, more than any other group has been the driving force organizing.
Rob Renfroe: Traditional delegates that go to General Conference so many of those about a third of those come from Africa, others come from the Philippines Eastern Europe other places.
Rob Renfroe: And we build a coalition, along with our evangelicalism delegates from the United States to go to General Conference be prepared to try to maintain our biblical views.
Andy Miller III: So when they go with a General Conference, this is not a simple process like this is a very in there can be beer bureaucracies that are used well, so I don't mean it in a negative way.
Andy Miller III: That there is a bureaucratic system using robert's rules of order is it's a complicated thing as i've tried to tune in or like even follow the news, as you have these things so there's a way that you help.
Andy Miller III: people understand what's going on, because because people who are going.
Andy Miller III: Are lay lay leaders in their church or business people like I, I have a friend who you know he owned hallmark stores in South Georgia and he helped to lead.
Andy Miller III: The South Georgia conference on the left side and then there's people who are a part of it from another perspective, where they are their pastors I can they're.
Andy Miller III: they're concerned about what sermon series, am I going to do now stewardship campaign, going to be like.
Andy Miller III: For so that a part of what you do, then, or what what good news is to help people know what's going on.
Andy Miller III: So they can get to to these.
Rob Renfroe: system yeah delegates there's roughly 860 these days that number fluctuates a little bit they get books this thick.
Rob Renfroe: wow of all the proposed changes to our what we call our book of discipline, all these proposed legislative changes, many of them are very.
Rob Renfroe: terribly important, so our team, particularly Tom lambretta who works with me.
Rob Renfroe: He goes through all of that he reads through what are the big issues that need to be addressed.
Rob Renfroe: He and others than right position papers we get all that out to delegates we've begun hosting a two to three day pre conference with African delegates.
Rob Renfroe: You know they come from far away, they need time to adjust to the new time zone, they need to.
Rob Renfroe: understand a little bit about how we do things robert's rules or those kinds of things, and then we try to make certain that.
Rob Renfroe: Are evangelicalism us delegates, as well as Africans and people from other countries that we're all on the same page.
Rob Renfroe: And that we have our strategy worked out, I mean it's a political event and some people think that's terrible but anytime you have people together trying to figure out how they're going to order themselves it's that's the nature that's political.
Rob Renfroe: And it's just that, whether you do it with integrity or not so yeah we.
Rob Renfroe: every four years, it is a huge undertaking.
Rob Renfroe: And, but we are We may want to shift and start talking about where we are now.
Rob Renfroe: singing who yon.
Rob Renfroe: That point that that's that has kept the United Methodist church, as the only mainline denomination that has even at this time a biblical position regarding sexuality.
Rob Renfroe: PC USA episcopal church USA.
Rob Renfroe: evangelicalism Lutheran church of America strange name for group as liberal, as it is the UCC all of them.
Rob Renfroe: have liberalized their sexual ethics and all of the evangelicalism have had to leave we're the only denomination because of all of that good work, but because of the.
Rob Renfroe: unwillingness of our bishops to hold people accountable because i've been saved rebellion or disobedience is rampant we've come to a place where we believe that just having the right position.
Rob Renfroe: is no longer sufficient and that we need a separation.
Andy Miller III: So that's finally like what's happened is like so we buy audience might be, if we are aware of what the protocol is we had Keith boyd on had a nice conversation with him about this, so you like.
Andy Miller III: So now we've kind of place where this was this was put in place two years ago and 2020 where there was just agreement of what was going to happen, but now tell us rob what's happened like that, because it's like.
Andy Miller III: we're looking forward to this time where there would be a General Conference, and there would be as the words.
Andy Miller III: Were from if you know what's his name, he was former.
Andy Miller III: In Houston.
Andy Miller III: bill hinton said yeah amicable separation, I said this way back in 2002 or something like Okay, this is the time and oh that's too soon, is too soon we can't we can't do that, no, no, but now it's it's come, and unfortunately this it's not being as amiable like i'm saying that word.
Rob Renfroe: No, no it's not, and so I won't go through it all but we've had fight after fight after fight.
Rob Renfroe: And then we call it a special General Conference in 2019 to say let's solve this once and for all of us have a.
Rob Renfroe: Special Conference we don't talk about anything else will prepare for people will have made their proposals and then we'll vote and we'll be done with it.
Rob Renfroe: So that happened and again the traditional position all people are people of sacred worth all people are accepted in our churches, but we don't ordain or marry practicing gay persons that was again upheld and then.
Rob Renfroe: i'm trying to think of a phrase that I can say all all heck broke out.
Rob Renfroe: And what happened is that we'd all agree we're going to solve this once and for all, but once the centrist and the Liberals didn't get their way.
Rob Renfroe: They immediately began to repudiate but the General Conference had agreed to full page ads were taken out by past lives and lay people condemning this action, condemning it I Methodist church.
Rob Renfroe: And long story short 26 of our I believe 53 annual conferences have all gone on record repudiating this 12 of them have said we're just going to ignore it we're going to go on and do what we think is right.
Rob Renfroe: And we're not going to hold anybody accountable if they break this book of discipline.
Rob Renfroe: So it's like oh my gosh here we are, you know we we trusted these folks to be good faith partners, they won't do it, and then miraculously a bishop from Africa called together some leaders, I was part of the first meeting.
Rob Renfroe: and say let's see if we can't come up with something and I didn't think anything would come of it but that's when the protocol.
Rob Renfroe: That created a Amoco, as you say, an amicable way of parting neither side thought was really fair, which means probably about as good as you could get, and this is that happen only because candace feinberg a world class.
Rob Renfroe: mediator, I mean he's handled some of the biggest cases in history graciously gave his time to come in to make this happen.
Rob Renfroe: So, then, we thought okay we're going to vote on this in May of 2020 then coven came so we couldn't meet, and then we thought we would meet.
Rob Renfroe: Again, and 2022 and then we would meet this protocol, but the group that's in charge of setting dates and making it happen is called the Commission on General Conference.
Rob Renfroe: announced earlier this spring, that they were not going to hold General Conference still because of covert now what's amazing is that.
Rob Renfroe: half a dozen church bodies, the Episcopal church, but we used to call our united Methodist women now faith united.
Rob Renfroe: The the the right now, this is the.
Rob Renfroe: All of the bishops in the Anglican communion.
Rob Renfroe: On the ios found a way to come together.
Rob Renfroe: and have a meeting, but not the United Methodist church and what was obvious to us and we have some info inside information is that this was a politically driven decision it meant that the Protocol would be pushed off another two years.
Rob Renfroe: New delegates would have to be elected, they would likely be more liberal than those who had been elected, and that this would be a way of stalling and of discouraging evangelicalism so.
Rob Renfroe: What we decided is that many traditional Methodist could no longer live and they're often abusive liberal annual conferences and they cried out and said we can't wait anymore, we can't wait another two years plus all of the liberal progressive leaders who helped create the protocol.
Rob Renfroe: They also sent out a letter saying.
Rob Renfroe: hey we're not going to support it anymore.
Andy Miller III: wow.
Rob Renfroe: I didn't know that okay oh oh yeah so here, here it is they put their names on it, they helped create it, they said, this is the way forward, but now that they believe that they have the upper hand.
Rob Renfroe: they've all been rescinded now they have reasons why that are just laughable.
Rob Renfroe: So people said no, we can't wait anymore so may 1 of this year, the global Methodist Church was officially launched in ready to go for some time, great works been done and preparing the foundation for this new denomination.
Rob Renfroe: And so now we're in the process, because there is no protocol that every Bishop pretty much gets to set his or her own terms for how churches can leave and go join the global Methodist church and some are being relatively fair, others are being utterly abusive.
Rob Renfroe: And so right now it's an exciting time because, finally, the separation is occurring the church that i'm a part of just retired from the woodlands Methodist church our second largest church in the country 14,000 Members, we just voted by 96% in favor margin to leave to dis affiliate.
Rob Renfroe: From the united.
Rob Renfroe: Methodist church, the second largest church in our annual conference faith brand devoted by hundred percent to leave.
Rob Renfroe: 220 churches in our annual conference out of roughly 600 are already in a process of what's called discernment that will lead up to a time where they vote.
Rob Renfroe: So it's an exciting time because it's really happening we're going to have a new thoroughly orthodox Methodist denomination Western denomination.
Rob Renfroe: But it's also chaotic and difficult time, because some churches are stuck the amount of money that they are being required to pay to keep their property this.
Rob Renfroe: clause that we have means you can't just leave.
Rob Renfroe: and take your property with you, you have to pay your way out to the annual conference.
Rob Renfroe: and some are requiring the most ludicrous things you can imagine, people have paid for this church they've built this church they'd labored for its ministries and now they're being told to leave and take your property you've got to pay up to 50% of what your property is worth.
Rob Renfroe: Churches don't have that.
Rob Renfroe: right they don't have those assets they'd have to sell their building and then give practically everything they get from it, because you never get what your buildings really work so that's our work right now helping individual churches all around the country find a way out.
Andy Miller III: And does that mean that they go it doesn't mean they necessarily go directly to the global Methodist church like so your church of what very well known church.
Andy Miller III: Has it then made a decision about being a part of the goal Methodist church or is that something that is the first step is dis affiliation.
Rob Renfroe: there's two ways, you can do it and churches are doing it both of these ways one is to know where you're going to land, you really have a number of options, you can be an independent church we don't recommend that I mean being Wesley and means being connected.
Rob Renfroe: Right and being accountable.
Rob Renfroe: But some are going, independent and that's a possibility most will go to the global Methodist church and then some others may find a different denomination if you've chosen to go to free Methodist church and.
Rob Renfroe: So there's there's different options, so you can do it all at once, which some of you, others are taking two steps and that's what the woodlands Methodist is doing the first step is knowing we can't remain and the United Methodist church.
Rob Renfroe: Right and that way, the vote was simply on that issue it's not about where we going to land that because in one ways you there's a lot of information to process so maybe you.
Rob Renfroe: make it less just keep the issue real clear here's the problems with umc do you think we should stay or not no okay.
Rob Renfroe: Because you've done now, here are our options for the future let's take some time to look at that and so that's the way that.
Rob Renfroe: The Church that i've been a part of is doing it, and so we we just voted this last Sunday, to leave and so now we'll take some time to recommend where they should go I.
Rob Renfroe: I hope, and I suspect it will be the global Methodist church, but again that'll be a decision that the congregation will May.
Andy Miller III: So rob I have some friends who you know went to seminary with or people who i've served with, and if they some of them, some of them serve and liberal areas, and I think, but every time I say the word, liberal or progressive I know some people think i'm speaking in a pejorative way.
Andy Miller III: But they just know like this is the clearest term if you need me to spend a half an hour to define what liberal or progressive means I can.
Andy Miller III: And i'll do it in a generous way but i'm not doing it here, I think you know what mean Robin I haven't talked about this for 45 minutes.
Andy Miller III: So.
Rob Renfroe: Well, they they use these terms for themselves.
Rob Renfroe: Okay, so we're not we're just in a way that you can call me a conservative and I know you could mean that in a pejorative way, I would say i'm a conservative Christian so you're not being at all dismissive you're just giving them the name that they've chosen themselves.
Andy Miller III: Oh that's helpful to me, I appreciate you saying that right so so some of my friends are serving those places and they might say.
Andy Miller III: Well, they have said to me Andy i've made a vow i've made a vow to the United Methodist church and I am just as conservative, as you I uphold a biblical sexuality, a biblical sexual ethic and authority of scripture.
Andy Miller III: But somebody's got to stay, you know we've got to stay in fight and we've got to be in a position where we can't just give it all away because what's going to happen.
Andy Miller III: To the church if if all the conservatives leave so they're there there's some I feel like are so committed.
Andy Miller III: To the institution, even though their theology is more consistent with what the global Methodist churches or or another Westland denomination what's your word to those to my friends who are saying those type they're trying to take that sort of stands at this point.
Rob Renfroe: Well let's assume and again i'm not trying to be pejorative let's assume that their motive for staying really is somehow a concern for the United Methodist church and its renewal.
Rob Renfroe: And a lot of people are not doing anything because you've got to make hard decisions.
Rob Renfroe: And you've got to do difficult things and it's just easier to kind of, say, well, I think we should stay and help but let's assume that this is really their driving motive.
Rob Renfroe: I would say brother you're involved in the charge of the light for gay okay.
Rob Renfroe: We have fault for this for 50 years and the way that the Methodist churches organized the way that no one can hold the bishops accountable, the fact that you will never again elect a thoroughly traditional orthodox united Methodist Bishop.
Rob Renfroe: Once we leave.
Rob Renfroe: Even now with us here we don't think we could do it once we leave you're never going to.
Rob Renfroe: elect a.
Rob Renfroe: Bishop who will defend the Orthodox Christian faith so matter of fact, once we leave you're not going to see anything when you call it evangelicalism traditional conservative pastors are not going to be ordained.
Rob Renfroe: wow united Methodist church, so we have tried, we have fought the good fight for 50 years literally 50 years and we've come to this point where we believe that.
Rob Renfroe: there's no hope to renew this organization and it's hard to say in some ways, I think we fought the good fight.
Rob Renfroe: We have given a lot of hope and held a lot of conservatives and this denomination who now go be a part of something new together and other ways I think you know we fought, and in some sense we lost.
Rob Renfroe: The denomination decided that it wanted.
To.
Rob Renfroe: be a liberal and it's sexual ethic, and it wanted to be open to what I would call heresy the teachings that many pastors and bishops to give about the scriptures give about Jesus.
Rob Renfroe: or for radical and sometimes you just need to write it kebab.
Rob Renfroe: You know the spirit of God is departed and now Leon.
Rob Renfroe: I this sounds more pejorative than I mean it Jesus said, you know if you don't find a man of peace in that city just.
Rob Renfroe: Like dust off your sandals and leave.
Rob Renfroe: And that's where we are.
Rob Renfroe: And if you want to stay in fight and put your people through that.
Rob Renfroe: You want to fight you want to be have a contentious rest of your ministry go ahead, but you're not going to win.
Andy Miller III: wow rob, thank you for having the courage to say that, and we know that that's been a part of the tradition of good news is to be able to say hard things like we've outlined.
Andy Miller III: Here the grace and truth balance that you've you've highlighted here's what's interesting I love love for you to take a minute to talk to some other denominations so.
Andy Miller III: i'm in my denomination there's a there's a slippage I think in this exact same areas of the polities a little different.
Andy Miller III: The public awareness is different and then also I see it happening i've lot of we have friend other faculty members here who are probably nazarene church and, unfortunately, some of their institutions.
Andy Miller III: are letting go of the.
Andy Miller III: orthodoxy, as well as if you could do this, this is a tough because I actually I feel like pain.
Andy Miller III: For you and my united message fringes you say.
Andy Miller III: In some senses, we lost yeah if you could go back it's a tough, if you could go back now what What would you what would you did the right things, according to his spirit at the time and I like I fully believe that but now seeing how people have not been good actors.
Andy Miller III: Right well what would What would you have advise the United Methodist church 20 years ago to do if you knew what you knew now.
Rob Renfroe: If you know well.
Rob Renfroe: it's it's hard to say what what we should have done, you mentioned bill Hansen, who I served on his staff at first Methodist and Houston who I i'll tear up who i'm artist on my heart yeah and was a hero of mine.
Rob Renfroe: He said, we need to separate, we need to admit that we're two different tribes.
Rob Renfroe: yeah and.
Rob Renfroe: I think.
Rob Renfroe: it's difficult anti because, even now, you say you have some friends who think i'm going to stay and fight.
Rob Renfroe: And so you have folks all different places and what they see in the future, we knew that bill was right, many of us knew that those right.
Rob Renfroe: And that, if we could have done anything, it would have said let's stop the next 20 years of fighting and beating each other up.
Rob Renfroe: and actually goodness has argued that the way i've described it is we're in a cage match, you know, in a cage matches and wrestling.
Rob Renfroe: put some people, and you lock them in there, and nobody leaves until only one person can stand and that person steps out bloodied and battered and beaten, but now he's the victor.
Rob Renfroe: And i've said, you know what let's stop the cage match we can't quit fighting and we can't escape each other let's just stop this open the door will go our separate ways.
Rob Renfroe: But you had others know we got to stay, we got to find you had the other side that didn't want to compromise, so if we could have done anything differently, we would have found a way to separate long ago.
Rob Renfroe: But the problem there is.
Rob Renfroe: Even many good evangelicalism weren't ready to do that, they thought they could fight and win or they didn't see the problem being as difficult as it is, I would say, if you have.
Rob Renfroe: faithful people in places of leadership, you need to go to them, and you need to say look at what has happened at every denomination that has shown some slippage in the biblical position.
Rob Renfroe: It always is a downhill slide every denomination that is loud there's no stopping point for people on the left Okay, we and i'm getting us off any but, but once your goal once your altar is inclusive of it.
Rob Renfroe: What do you not include.
Rob Renfroe: Right and people in the Methodist church you think all we want to do is make room for loving monogamous same sex relations.
Rob Renfroe: I got no clue.
Rob Renfroe: Where this is going.
Rob Renfroe: We had and Duke divinity schools united Methodist school we just had a service where students there's some united Methodist.
Rob Renfroe: prayed to God is the great queer one.
Rob Renfroe: The Holy and queer one.
Rob Renfroe: They prayed you are father, mother parent sibling trans man drag Queen, these are This is where this will go in the future there's no stopping point and the centrist to say, well, not on our watch.
Rob Renfroe: Okay they're going to be overrun by these young progressives.
Rob Renfroe: who have no stock for them, that it will continue to get further and further into very bizarre and really awful things.
Andy Miller III: And we see that happening politically.
Andy Miller III: what's happening just in society of.
Andy Miller III: polyamory polygamy.
Andy Miller III: And like it's just it's.
Andy Miller III: In and we, we are told, like window burger file file oh don't worry just will be fine, this is all going to be just like we just want this one thing, no, no it's.
Andy Miller III: it's clear that there is a dish like a case to destroy the institution of marriage and what it represents it and I would say that this is a pre political institution now on the political side there's a different reason support it, but within the life of the Church.
Andy Miller III: You can see the exact same arguments happening.
Rob Renfroe: Well, and how are the centrist to tell us they're going to be on the watch they're trying to tell.
Rob Renfroe: traditional methods, you can stay nothing's really going to change you're never going to be put in a place.
Rob Renfroe: That you have to do anything you're uncomfortable with we won't let it go to work okay.
Rob Renfroe: Right right, but how are they going to say marriages, only two people when they've already said that the first chapters of Genesis don't teach that it's one man and one woman, then the next question is well how can you be certain it teaches just two people.
Andy Miller III: yeah yeah.
Rob Renfroe: Because you use it to say well just love love is love and as long as it's loving and committed, and if you I know when people hear us talk like this now the Church, the United Methodist church will at some point be promoting polyamory.
Rob Renfroe: You know more than.
Rob Renfroe: Two people and some kind of committed, at least for time relationship and they will bless this.
Rob Renfroe: People say you're crazy you're just an alarmist look just thinking about where we are now and how in years past when we said yeah there's going to be my parents both of them died about three years ago, but if you told them.
Rob Renfroe: You know when they were in their 40s there's gonna come a time when gay people are going to be really open about it and expect to be accepted, they say all know people wouldn't do that yeah.
Rob Renfroe: And there's going to come a time when they're going to get married and our government is going to say that things they know that's crazy.
Rob Renfroe: And now, when you tell them you're going to have united Methodist students praying to God is the great queer one when you have it, one of our seminaries in the Chapel a drag queen show.
Rob Renfroe: They would say that's bizarre well that's happening and so whenever you say here's the stopping point certainly can't get any stranger than this.
Rob Renfroe: I don't know what the next strange thing is going to be, but I can promise you.
Rob Renfroe: There is no stop on the Left there's no place where they will say, but we don't include that and it has a lot to do with the the ethos of our time that our inner feelings determine reality that our identity is not who we are, in Christ, but it's these.
Rob Renfroe: Emotions these feelings this sense that we have about ourselves, and no one, on the other side says we love you but you don't get to be crazy and so.
Andy Miller III: it's tough i'm sorry rob de like they offer one other argument i've heard recently and there's an academic conference it's going to come together, I think, in Australia.
Andy Miller III: And I saw a paper proposal that is like a critique of the global Methodist Church and the idea is academic presentation and the idea is it doesn't embrace wesley's Catholic spirit and then and then same thing as the idea is like.
Andy Miller III: The historical case of being is being made is that.
Andy Miller III: The you have generated the 20th century was the ecumenical century that coming together and represented by the term united right united so uniting and now you're no longer it we're know we're just breaking into.
Andy Miller III: Like the kind of the visit Paris nature of the Church, since the reformation we're just embracing that and that's a problem yeah give me to say and we've already addressed a little bit, but would you respond directly to that and I won't keep you too much longer I just.
Andy Miller III: know.
Rob Renfroe: I think this is a hello, please.
well.
Rob Renfroe: First of all, people who say that churches, like the global Methodist church don't embrace West wesley's Catholic spirit, you really wonder if they read his sermon.
Rob Renfroe: On Catholic spirit, he is very clear that having a Catholic spirit doesn't mean accepting all kinds of views okay.
Rob Renfroe: I, there are many beliefs, that the scriptures are not as clear about as we might lie and there it's like you know if your heart is right, as my heart is right, give me your hand we don't have to agree on every level thing.
Rob Renfroe: But he was very clear that there's no give on these grand scriptural doctrines and that nobody should use the idea of camp, we all just get along to deny the importance of doctrine.
Rob Renfroe: People should just go and read that sermon and you will get a very different feel from you know what people tell you it means as for.
Rob Renfroe: me coming apart, the problem is that the United Methodist Church is a failed experiment, but was written into our way of doing theology, from the very beginning was a wrong understanding of what's referred to as the West Wesley and quadrilateral.
Andy Miller III: Right right.
Rob Renfroe: Where it said how will we make theological.
Rob Renfroe: Discussion decisions will use scripture reason tradition and experience and what was not clearly delineated is that scripture as primary and that.
Rob Renfroe: Reason tradition experience are here to help us understand scripture but not to override it and so now.
Rob Renfroe: What has gotten woven into the fabric of united methodism is that if our reason those better than scripture we go with reason, if our experience is different from scripture than we can go with experience you know if the traditions of the Church.
Rob Renfroe: become such that they now are different than scripture that's a valid way of doing theology doing live so it's really a wrongheaded approach to look at a denomination that was fatally flawed, the way that it was put together at the beginning.
Rob Renfroe: and say oh.
Rob Renfroe: You know now that you want to separate you're going against this great spirit of unity, at some point and I don't mean this quite as.
Rob Renfroe: baldly as it sounds Jesus said he came to bring division right so there's more to just well, you should always work for unity, when he prayed for unity, it was you know sanctify them by your truth that same.
Rob Renfroe: approach, it was like we're not going to sacrifice truth for unity, because if we do we know end up with neither.
Rob Renfroe: Paul talks about you know you can't sit down at tables with those who are worshipping false gods and pretend that we're all together, you know what what does like have to do with darkness so yeah light and darkness separate.
Rob Renfroe: And when there's darkness in the Church.
Rob Renfroe: You can try to correct it, you can try to bring light to it, but when those who are in authority are promoting darkness, but you don't do is just embrace it and act like it does.
Rob Renfroe: I heard you say.
Rob Renfroe: If I can't change it, then I can't be a part I can't be a part of the Church.
Rob Renfroe: That allows its.
Rob Renfroe: pastors and bishops to deny the divinity of Jesus.
Rob Renfroe: To deny that the scriptures are god's word or to deny Jesus died for our sins if i've got to be united to you look, if you think we're better together, because if we allow heresy in the Church, if you think we're better together with that.
Andy Miller III: yeah yeah.
Rob Renfroe: day in the United Methodist church you're going to do just fine they may even let you teach seminary courses that is what's being taught.
Rob Renfroe: In our united method yeah there's but you're not going to work in the global Methodist church, because in the global Methodist church we worship Jesus Christ, as the savior of the world and the Lord of all.
Rob Renfroe: bless his name is the name given among men, whereby we must be saved, we believe he is the way the truth and the life and that no one comes to the father, except by him.
Rob Renfroe: If that doesn't work for you God bless you there are a lot of places, you can go being a church, but the global Methodist church will not be for you, because we are about Jesus Christ, and everything that the scriptures teach and.
Andy Miller III: hey man just keep keep keep going in that same.
Andy Miller III: realm of thought or that direction, because it's actually a positive time.
Andy Miller III: This is a great moment where there's like you're no longer going to be in a position is, this is my encouragement to those who are joining the.
Andy Miller III: Global Methodist Church is that no longer are you part of a church where you hit, you have to affirm that Oh, you have to make excuses well I know we have a lesbian Bishop over here or I know there's.
Andy Miller III: This seminary that's teaching witchcraft.
Andy Miller III: But like.
Andy Miller III: This is a great moment so give us that positive word about what's coming for the method.
Andy Miller III: And we'll we'll finish up, I have one more question after that.
Rob Renfroe: Okay well yeah, it is very exciting time and you know the people that are leading the global Methodist church, many of them interesting or church planners.
Rob Renfroe: That we're not trying to recreate the United Methodist church just with.
Rob Renfroe: Better doctrine.
Rob Renfroe: There, this is an exciting time because this is a spirit led and anointed movement that wants to reach people for Christ.
Rob Renfroe: And i'm the president of the global Methodist church Keith boy yet an attorney who was calling the ministry church planner.
Rob Renfroe: carolyn more who's the head of the w CA that gave birth to the global method searched church planters others are we have already 100 people who've told Keith I want to plant a global Methodist.
Rob Renfroe: praise the Lord yeah so this this is going to be a great movement and the truth is that, even in the most progressive areas when you combine grace and truth and preach the Gospel it.
Rob Renfroe: It changes people the Gospel still real god's power is still alive the truth still convicts and if it is shared by people who are living it out with grace what can only be found in Jesus continues to speak to the depths of the human heart and bring people to faith in God.
Andy Miller III: amen oh I love it or I always ask the question at the end and it's metabolized podcast is more to the story, and I use that because I want to go deeper and a subject that we can get and just a quick kind of soundbite.
Andy Miller III: But also it's a theological concept that there's more to the story of salvation than just getting your sins forgiven there's the sanctify and grace of Jesus and available for us, and that the work God wants to your life so there's that side, but it also.
Andy Miller III: Is there more to the story of Robin fro something that you don't get to share because you're generally talking about these type of things like there's something you'd like to do.
Rob Renfroe: Well, you know that that we just got back from a great trip to maine we have a favorite place in the world code you re Colorado it's the Southwestern corner of Colorado that we think is very, very special it's near tell you ride.
Rob Renfroe: The joke is all the billionaires are kicking the millionaires out of telluride and they're all moving all the millionaires and now kicking everybody else out of you right it's just this beautiful little town 7700 feet.
Rob Renfroe: And we've been there at least a dozen times.
Andy Miller III: you're one of those billionaires I you'd like.
Andy Miller III: A donor Wesley biblical.
Rob Renfroe: seminary.
Rob Renfroe: I think he misunderstood.
Rob Renfroe: So, but this year we did something different, we went to bar harbor.
Rob Renfroe: maine Okay, and we spent a week there it's been 100 degrees.
Rob Renfroe: Here practically every day one day it got up to 70 degrees.
Andy Miller III: In all my.
Rob Renfroe: harbor yeah so we started off in the mornings in the 40s or the 50s and the hiking there is easier okay it's beautiful it's magnificent I recommend it katie National Park is fantastic but.
Rob Renfroe: Then here's the more to the story, so we had this great week there were coming home on the plane there's a guy seated in front of me, that is coughing his head off okay i'm saying, oh dear God, please not coven let the guy had bronchitis, or something like.
Rob Renfroe: That God, but not coven.
Rob Renfroe: And Sure enough, two days later, my son says, I got code.
Rob Renfroe: I got it I cope, and my wife and.
Rob Renfroe: So that was the rest of the story for our vacation but we were done with it and less than a week and then I was got terribly sick so as.
Rob Renfroe: My family.
Andy Miller III: You talked about the southwest Colorado we just did a huge trip, we went to up through South Dakota mount rushmore yellowstone then came down through salt lake city and we didn't even know it, but we drove right by arches.
Andy Miller III: National Park, so is that in the St until we stop there for just a little bit.
Rob Renfroe: different place.
Andy Miller III: Okay, for okay gotcha so not that South.
Rob Renfroe: park near Durango.
Rob Renfroe: tell you ride.
Rob Renfroe: Okay, and anyhow try it out sometime but.
Rob Renfroe: Accelerating your a is referred to as the Switzerland of America.
Rob Renfroe: wow and queen beautiful little town, if you love hiking I don't know how you can do better.
Andy Miller III: awesome that is great well rob just know of like from from my set from me personally, but Wesley biblical seminary.
Andy Miller III: Our appreciation for you and the work that good news is doing in our encouragement to global Methodist church and those who are dis affiliating you know, continue to contend for the faith.
Andy Miller III: We trust that God has got spirit is at work.
Andy Miller III: In this movement and we just trust that and so rob Thank you so much for the work that you've done, I know that you take a lot of heat but know that you're appreciated and we thank God for your courage.
Rob Renfroe: Thanks so much for letting me be on here is great this thing with you, and God bless you and all those who are listening.