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Hosted by Masi Willis and Shannon Scott, Lead Like You Mean It is a leadership podcast for those who want more than inspiration—they want impact. We’ll help you lead from the inside out, with tools that stick and some truth that stretches you.
Shannon Scott (00:02.191)
All right, welcome back to lead like you mean it. How we doing Mace?
Masi Willis (00:07.296)
I'm good friend, how are you doing?
Shannon Scott (00:10.215)
I'm good, you know? It's a little bit chilly up here at the cabin today. Is it chilly in Georgia?
Masi Willis (00:17.216)
It is, it is chilly. I, I will be vulnerable and tell everyone that I have mini split air conditioning units, heating units in my little barn I live in. You don't know what a mini split is. You probably haven't ever been to Europe, but they hang up on the wall. There's no duct work, but there's two different modes. There's an air conditioning mode and there's a heat mode. So there's a snowflake and then there's a sunshine.
So I think the snowflake means that when it's cold outside, you want the mini split to be at this temperature. So I have been living with that freezing cold only to find out I've been running the air conditioner and it's 25 degrees outside. And so after about a week of me sniffling and I've got muff.
Shannon Scott (00:51.461)
It's cold outside. Yeah.
Masi Willis (01:12.5)
had what do you call ear muffs on and I got my fire in my wood burning stove going. I'm like I live in a barn and this is ridiculous that I only figure out that I had it on the air conditioning mode which is blow cold air which is why it's a snowflake and the sunshine means heat would be coming out but that intuitively does not make sense to me.
Shannon Scott (01:14.877)
Hahaha
Shannon Scott (01:35.411)
Oh yeah, I would have thought if it's cold outside hit the snowflake because that will engage the heat and if it's hot outside hit the sun because that'll engage the air and it is the opposite. So you have been blowing air into your house while it's 25 degrees outside.
Masi Willis (01:53.612)
Yes, welcome to the barn life. You would think after five and a half years I would have figured this out, but I don't switch those modes. And the other irritating thing is you have to switch all those modes in a certain order. So I have to switch the upstairs, go down to my living room, then go to my bedroom in that order so that they all switch. I can't have one on air and one on heat. Yeah. Yeah.
Shannon Scott (01:56.498)
huh.
Shannon Scott (02:19.027)
no. Yeah. Okay. So that's, okay. So that's how we're doing. There you go. If that's all you got out of this podcast today, just make sure that the buttons you're pushing mean what they actually mean. There's really a hundred leadership analogies we could use that for, because people be pushing buttons all the time in leadership. But today we're going to talk about a specific, uh-huh.
Masi Willis (02:21.207)
Okay, that was useless information, but I hope you enjoyed it.
Yes.
Masi Willis (02:41.774)
Clarity, clarity, I'm sorry, clarity is queen, right? You've been saying, we've been saying that over the last few episodes. It is kindness. If I was clear on the buttons, it would be kind to my body.
Shannon Scott (02:48.668)
Yes.
Clarity's kindness. Yep.
Shannon Scott (02:58.181)
Yes, and I, let's see, I'll make a really quick leadership analogy now that we've paused for a second. You are probably pushing buttons on the people that you lead thinking you're getting one result and you don't understand why you're getting the opposite and it's because you have not taken the time to assess if the button you're pushing is the most effective way to get what you want from that subordinate. So there's our air conditioner analogy.
Masi Willis (03:24.002)
Well, that will preach. Yes. Let's do it.
Shannon Scott (03:28.153)
Okay, so today though, I want us to talk about something called the core process. And I know for you and I both, we use this almost exclusively when we're doing one-on-one conversations, follow-ups with team members, or as we're talking about something that is an issue for someone, this is such a helpful way to think through all sides of an issue, basically. But specifically how to look at what
our culpability might be in the frustration that we are having. let's, I would just ask you this to kind of start us off. Why do you think leaders wait so long to deal with what to you and me seem like obvious problems? Like, why do we let that person stay so long or why do we let that dysfunction linger in that particular scenario in a leadership meeting for instance?
Masi Willis (04:00.654)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Shannon Scott (04:27.892)
Why do we let toxic culture go on in an organization? Why do leaders wait so long to deal with what seem like obvious problems?
Masi Willis (04:39.892)
Well, I think the key word in that is obvious. So it can be twofold, right? And it can be the leader who is not self-aware. They don't have any people or they haven't invited people to hold them accountable to poor actions or slow decision-making. They haven't created a psychological safety to have accountability. Therefore, just
It'll fix itself. It's their problem. So they're not self-aware or it's the opposite of that. It's avoidance. I just don't want to even take the time. Surely this will go away. Like I'll deal with this if something bad happens, but like let's just pacify it and make it happen. mean, we could use like the metaphor of a speed bump. You can hit it slowly and deal with it. And, and your trip might take you a little bit longer, but eventually you will reach where you're going or
You can ignore the speed bump, blow right over it, and you can have a flat tire or your shocks can be ruined and you've got a costly expense on your hands and you never made it to your outcome because you had to stop and pull over on the side of the road. So think it's twofold and the leaders have to be really, really willing to go, hmm, what's it really like on the other side of me? And to have someone, we see this in ministry, we see this in boards.
We see this in leadership of C-suites. you're not willing to have someone to say to you, hey, time out. What you're doing is not healthy. What you're doing is not making this organization or this team better. You're actually the problem. And we need to work through a core process to figure out how do we adapt. That's the big thing I think causes this is the not really wanting to own what is happening. You got to start there.
Shannon Scott (06:37.424)
Yeah, so, you know, we've said make it matter is the banner over this year. So if we're serious about making it matter, we can't keep avoiding things that at the end of the day are just weakening our leadership core. I would say that over the years, the things that I have delayed and I have seen leaders tend to delay in these pain points is hard conversations, difficult conversations where we
Masi Willis (06:42.552)
Yeah.
Masi Willis (06:47.64)
Right.
Masi Willis (06:58.094)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Scott (07:07.548)
to confront somebody or we find out something that they did or did not do and we need to come around it we delay that. When someone is just overall underperforming, Macy, I cannot tell you the number of people who have been in jobs for in some cases decades they have underperformed almost exclusively and nobody will talk to them about it. Everybody in the company knows nobody is
Masi Willis (07:22.498)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Scott (07:37.281)
talking to the under performer. I've seen leaders delay that. Misalignment. This person just is not a fit with this organization but we delay telling them that.
Masi Willis (07:42.862)
Mm-hmm.
Masi Willis (07:47.416)
Yes. Yeah.
Shannon Scott (07:50.991)
Also, we delay conversations about blind spots. Like everybody else can see this and you can't see it and we don't talk about it. But what we avoid does not ever just disappear. It compounds. And so we grow dysfunction. So what do we do about this? Why is the core process going to help us with this?
Masi Willis (08:03.488)
No. Yeah.
Masi Willis (08:12.982)
Yeah. Before we move there, I want to kind of go back to something you said, which I think is great. Is that whole the person who's underperforming or the person who is getting away with so much toxicity because of this leader avoiding? One of the issues there for me, and this is where the avoidance happens, is you are undermining your leadership. What you are allowing others to do to create un- unhealth in your organization.
actually is destroying your leadership. It's on the other side of you. have undermined who you are. The big, the big elephant in the room for those of you listening to a leadership podcast and you've read all the leadership books and you're a junkie just taking in and eating knowledge, but never doing anything, which is the avoidance of hiring a leadership coach. You have.
You're like, we'll get to that leadership workshop. We'll have that implemented as a culture next year when we're not so busy. I have a current client that said that like, we can't deal with that right now. Let us get our feet, our feet underneath us for a couple of months when we're not so busy. You are compounding exactly what Shannon just said, because what you avoid doesn't disappear. It's only going to get worse and worse and worse, and you're going to have to dig your way out of it.
So let's talk about how to dig your way out of it. That is what the core process, why it exists is that actual action plan for change. You can want it, but then you're like, how do I change it? So think about the core process as an acronym and we can walk through each letter and what it stands for, but that's why it exists is for an actual change.
changing patterns and having a plan on how to do that.
Shannon Scott (10:13.616)
Well, you just said it. mean, leaders don't lack tools. Good grief. mean, the number of books and podcasts and influencers and, you know, and we know phenomenal prolific leaders, but they aren't great leaders because they talked about tools. They're great leaders because they implemented them. And so if you're a leader, it isn't that you lack the tools. You probably got a lot going on in the shed, but if you never go pick it up, it doesn't become a
Masi Willis (10:21.155)
Mm-hmm.
Masi Willis (10:27.906)
Mm-hmm.
Masi Willis (10:34.882)
Right.
Shannon Scott (10:43.56)
tool for you. So it's not the lack of tools, it is the lack of follow through. So what you're going to share with us today, this core process, is not about being reactive in situations, it's about being uber intentional in situations. Okay, so walk us through the acronym and how we apply it.
Masi Willis (10:54.862)
Correct.
Masi Willis (10:58.69)
Yes.
Masi Willis (11:04.3)
Okay, so core, C-O-R-E. Think about the C, we like to say this is call it. Just name what it is. Like look at what leadership issue am I currently facing and naming it removes its power. It's like getting it out of the secretness, getting it out of the darkness and into the light so that we can see transformation happen because silence protects.
that dysfunction. And it's like, I'll use this analogy, you kind of referenced it. Having a blueprint of a house doesn't build your house. Having books and knowledge about leadership, but not implementing it does not put framework into place to have a high performing team. So that silence protects that dysfunction is like
having mold on the wall and you paint over it. Now you've got to have the tools to evaluate what kind of mold this is. Cut it out, replace it, and it's all new again before that mold gets all over the house and all over your organization and causes deterioration to happen. So that's really the, it's courage, right? It's not certainty. It's the courage to name it. And leaders don't need answers to start.
really just gotta be honest and they have to have honesty of what they're looking at.
Shannon Scott (12:37.713)
Ooh.
That's good. don't you think because we're all wired differently, don't you think we have different ways that we avoid this and we don't name it. So some of us maybe minimize things. it's not that bad. it's not that big a deal. don't be so dramatic. my gosh. I cannot hear that ever again. You know, we minimize it thinking that we are doing something that's actually making
Masi Willis (12:49.493)
yeah.
Masi Willis (12:55.681)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Scott (13:08.093)
the issue smaller, we're not. We're just avoiding it. But one thing that I saw in ministry over and over and over again is spiritualizing the thing instead of just calling it what it is. Well, you know, insert Christian cliche here. And it's like, no, we're not doing anything helpful in that case. We are over-spiritualizing something instead of saying what needs to be said about it.
Masi Willis (13:09.666)
Mm-hmm.
Masi Willis (13:18.975)
Ugh.
Masi Willis (13:25.614)
Thank you.
Shannon Scott (13:38.003)
Another thing I've noticed, and this can be me, is I'll stay busy to avoid naming something. Well, if I just don't look at it, it's not there. And I can avoid clarity if I just stay busy, and that's not healthy.
Masi Willis (13:51.458)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, and what goes unnamed, just can't, it can't get better. It's in the darkness. Like if we can't name it and the vulnerability to naming is, it's the first step, but it's the hard step. we, that C is call it. Like what is it? The O, let's move to that one. That is own it. That is why. So if the call is what?
The own is why. And I like to say to a lot of my clients that I work with on one-on-ones, they get really frustrated with me because once we say, you have this tendency to be passive aggressive in these situations. And then they're like, I will ask the question, we called it. Well, why? Because they are so such and such. They just constantly do this. They, I went, wait, wait, No, you have to take ownership.
This is your responsibility, your self-awareness. Why are you passive aggressive? Why are you so attacking? And when they say their first why, I will come back and okay, well, why do you think that? Why do you think they don't do everything right? Well, because I've taught them what to do. So why does that bother you? Well, because I know how to do things right and perfectly.
Why them doing it imperfect? Does it matter to you? Because it's a reflection of me. But is it? Because it's them. So what's your bother? Well, I'm actually jealous of them because now I'm not there and I have a fear that everyone's going to think now we're at your why. Because when we can have that why, it has that conscious incompetence moment of saying to us, I didn't know what I didn't know until now. You just made me turn the mirror on myself.
have self-awareness, not self-blame, but ownership, right? This is how I'm imparting it.
Shannon Scott (15:51.131)
So you're saying often the first thing I say isn't the real thing. That's my self-protection thing. That's my, but look at me, I'm still so great and flawless thing. And when you probe a little deeper, we're not at the bottom yet. We're not at the bottom. You get to the real thing.
Masi Willis (15:55.64)
correct.
Masi Willis (16:06.19)
And if your answer to why is they or he or she, that's not your why. That is, that is, is not them. That's their core process to deal with. The core process is yours. Call it, own it. Ask others for input. Like, what am I not owning here? What am I not seeing here? Like examine patterns, like where and why does this consistently happen? This
I feel this in these moments with these six different people, but I'm owning my wiring. I'm not weaponizing it. I'm not looking going, well, just, kind of know that my commodity is people. So when people take my credit for having connected to them, I will absolutely take them out with my words in a very cyber warfare kind of way. Well, why do you do that, Macy? Well, because they took my such and such.
No, but why did that get to you? Because I used what is so valuable to me and they haven't given me credit for it and that makes me feel taken advantage of. There's your why, Macy. That's what's driving your little cyber snarky comments about this person taking down their authority in this workplace because you just kind of want to see them smaller but you don't want anyone to recognize that you do that. That is ugly.
But that is vulnerable for me to say that is a tendency I have to watch for, is natural in connectors. I have to be really careful. If someone doesn't give me the credit, I need to be honest and wrap back around where the R would come in, which is respond to it. Okay. Now that I know that leadership map, maturity shows up and how fast I have been able to own that, but it's taken me.
four plus years for me to really get to the place where I saw it really ugly in myself.
Shannon Scott (18:03.352)
And I will, I will affirm that in you will be having a conversation. You will complain about somebody and in the next breath, you will turn around and own it and say, you know what? That's not fair. Actually, what's going on is X, Y, Z. I mean, how fast you're able to own it. Yes. I would say that is evidence of maturity. And, and I feel like I'm on a similar road where I'm like, you know, the common denominator and all these things that are ticking me off is me at the end of
Masi Willis (18:30.466)
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Scott (18:33.266)
the day the common denominator is me. So that doesn't mean I'm responsible and it's all my fault, but the common denominator is me. And if I'm circling this drain over and over and over again, what is it I need to own about this that will bring me to a place of maturity where maybe I don't get myself in this situation again? And I will say, this is the critical step in the core process because you do not grow in an area you refer
to own. You cannot make progress if you will not take any personal responsibility. So this this core process is made or broken in this own it. I might be able to name it if I'm unwilling to own my complicit behavior in it I can't grow. Do you agree with that or do you think you you're able to do this process without owning?
Masi Willis (19:04.78)
Yes.
Masi Willis (19:22.734)
Mm-hmm.
Masi Willis (19:29.888)
No, you can't grow without owning it. And if you own it and you see yourself change, but someone on the other side of you isn't, that's where you can create healthy boundaries. That's when you can say, well, this is great. But for me to be the best version of myself, since this person isn't owning this, their responsibility in it, and I keep butting up against them, I need to change how I relate to them. I need to change.
you know, my expectations, like we spoke on the last podcast, what are my expectations in my spouse? You can't go leave your spouse, but if your spouse isn't owning something and you're owning it, that could be really frustrating. And so coming and layering, going, okay, what is my impossible expectation and how do get it back to reality helps in that owning piece when you see yourself progress, but others aren't on the other side of you. So,
Shannon Scott (20:28.258)
So good. OK, so take us to, so we've done the C is call it, the O is own it. Take us to the R.
Masi Willis (20:29.24)
That's kind of the sum of it.
Masi Willis (20:36.076)
Yep. So I also like to use the what is your call it? The why is your own it. Your are is how we're going to respond. So how are we going to create change? That's your action item that respond to it. So awareness without action is just information, right? Like it never without action, you are never going to change your behavior.
And so you have to be able to respond by choosing a plan, choosing accountability, choosing what may be discomfort, know, over stagnation. it's really, and this is a, this is a huge piece of it because you have to know you owned it and you know why you do it. What is my next right step to respond? Now, this is the funny part because you don't need perfect plans.
You need your next intentional step. So people will say to me, oh, I'm just not gonna be passive aggressive anymore. That hasn't worked for you for 56 years, Willis, so what are you expecting right here? You've got to say a real response. I'm going to admit that when people take my credit, I can say,
like cyber warfare statements just to kind of chip away at their reputation. So my next thing is I'm going to tell someone every single time I do this over the next week, will you count so that I can become aware of what is triggering me? So that is my true response. It's not just don't do it anymore. It's I've got to now become aware of it. So I'm going to ask someone to tell me
Every time I do it in the right place and right time, use discipline and discretion. Don't do it in front of my subordinates or don't do it in front of my children. Honey, pull me a sigh. Say you did this, this today three times. So that respond is an actual plan. It means we're choosing a response. We're not going to stay stuck there and that's hard.
Masi Willis (22:54.71)
This is where the mirror comes in for accountability and that why ultimately I have to know my why is so important for me to get a hold of it to be the best version of myself. So what needs to change? What am I willing to do differently and who needs to be involved? What were you gonna say?
Shannon Scott (23:13.505)
yeah, I like that. What needs to change? What am I willing to do differently and who needs to be involved? So that's, am looking at it. I'm pointing at it. I'm coming up with the next right step and I'm engaging in accountability in it. And contrary to what some people might feel, accountability isn't punishment. This is not your parole officer. This is support because other people can see what we can't see.
For those of us who are perfectionists and we're and we like to do the right things all the time Somebody checking with us is not a punishment. It's support
Masi Willis (23:54.082)
Yeah, it can look as simple as a health. We're at the basically this is when everyone's quit their resolutions, right? Because sometimes we set our core processes, call it, I have health issues, I have heart issues, blockage, I'm making this up. O is own it, why? Well, it's hereditary, but also I don't really move my body enough. I need to be exercising and I don't like exercising. don't.
I don't enjoy going out in the cold. Okay, we'll respond to it. Well, I'm going to start going to the gym every week, three times a week. Well, no, you're not. Cause you made the same resolution for the past five years. You, we need to have a real next right step. I'm going to decide to walk up my driveway and down three farms and turn around and come back. And I'm going to do that three times a week. Then
I'm going to do that for four weeks straight, right? So that's the next right step, but who's going to tell me to do that? Right? So the response is the idea, the plan, making it matter. The last one is execute. And that is our how and with whom. So the core C O R E call it, own it, respond to it, execute it is our what, why, how, when.
and with whom. And that execute is the plans, you know, they don't, we have to execute it. The plans don't really build the leaders. Execution builds the leader, not just saying I've got this process, I've got to go do it. And so we have to set deadlines to turn intention into that movement. Right. And sometimes I have a wall of self preservation because I don't want to tell Shannon that I said, I want to do this.
because she is going to ask me over the next week, did you go walk up three farm, three spaces up the hill to get yourself your three times of walking? So I have a fear there sets in like we all fear we're going to fail. So that's why I think most people don't like resolutions. But if I set something that is a lens and an attainable goal, that first goal.
Masi Willis (26:15.18)
and you'll cycle back around this core process, which we can close out with. But what are your thoughts on execution? What have you found that really this piece of the core process does for you and your leadership transformation?
Shannon Scott (26:29.997)
Yeah, mean, if I don't tell anybody about it, I won't do it. so, like you said, I think we resist deadlines because I know for me there's a fear of failure. I don't want to say, I'm going to do X and not actually do it. So I just resist ever setting it because then I didn't fail at it, but I'm also not getting any better. So I think there's also a fear of being seen.
Masi Willis (26:58.84)
Yeah.
Shannon Scott (26:59.971)
you to see me needing to do something and you know because I want to be viewed a certain way in your eyes which like we can control how people view us but we still try to. And then I think some of us just have a fear of accountability because what happens if I don't? What happens when Macy asks me if I have gotten any further in my writing and I say no? And so I think that's the that's the thing I've seen play out for me.
Masi Willis (27:12.003)
Yeah.
Shannon Scott (27:29.841)
But I will say when I'm working for someone, execution, like them actually doing something is what increases my credit, you know, their credibility with me. If you talk about stuff all the time, but I don't actually ever see a deliverable from you, like an executed thing from you, I don't find you to be credible. I find you to be a used car salesman who talks a lot, but never sells
Masi Willis (27:58.86)
Yeah. Yeah. And the word you just used, what you execute really shapes the culture you lead. it's so, it creates a vulnerability that we as humans can cling to because we know we're all going to fail, right? There is not one person on earth that is perfect right now. And so it, when you see a leader go to a vulnerable place and they actually start executing
Shannon Scott (27:59.774)
car.
Masi Willis (28:28.64)
change, the culture follows that leader. The culture shifts with the leader. Now listen, if you're going to be in this execution, you are the whom, like who's holding you accountable. Do not be passive aggressive. Do not be sarcastic. Do not be cynical. Like if I come up and say, I want to walk up to the farm.
three times a week and I'm like, no, I only did it two. It's okay. You know, you're that connector. So you're around visiting all your friends and family. So that probably works for you too. No, no, that's not going to undermine, that's going to undermine my change. Or if you're like, oh, it's okay. You're a creative. said you want to speak clear, but you just don't use kind of babble around, but it's okay. We love you anyway. That isn't helpful. It's not the way to actually hold that execute place. So that's the core. Call it, own it, respond to it, execute it. The what?
Shannon Scott (29:15.181)
Yeah.
Masi Willis (29:20.152)
the why, the how, the when and to whom. And do not let your when, the when, the calendar be a year. There is a specific date. It can be five days from now. Short increments consistently done over and over time with increase in between will then make a transformational place. And so it doesn't happen overnight. I'm just gonna do leadership development. Now you're gonna have to give time, money and commitment just like you would at the gym.
You can't go work out once a month and expect to be ripped. Not gonna happen.
Shannon Scott (29:51.139)
Yeah, well, and a lot of coaches will tell you if it doesn't have a date on it, it's just a wish.
It's not even worth looking at and considering because if it doesn't have a date on it, it's not going to get executed. if you think about the core process and you think about it in terms of questions that you can ask our listeners that will help them self-assess on this, on this call it, own it, respond to it, execute it process, what would be some questions they could ask themselves to self-assess how they do with this tool?
Masi Willis (30:27.98)
Yeah, that's good. We can go back to the analogy I use, like what's the speed bump I've been avoiding or have I actually named it? Do I have common comments said to me consistently that I'm not changing or what part of this do I need to own? It could be what's one response I can commit to? When will I execute it? Like really turn that
on yourself and don't be overwhelmed. I want to encourage you, you don't have to fix everything. I'd say this with my clients, let's don't talk about 10 goals for the year. I talk about big moves. So a big move for 2026 could be, I want a health change. Whether my blood pressure goes down, I come off of a heart medication, whether I feel more flexible.
You don't have to fix it all. You don't have to go do all of it. I want to have our weekly meetings to be more succinct, more on task and on point. And as a leader, I want to make sure everyone's heard. Okay. One thing to fix, big move. Every meeting now has an agenda and you go in the rules of engagement. You have to start somewhere. And the core is simple, but it is not easy. It is repetition.
builds that strength. And when you don't continue working out, your muscles have atrophy. When you don't continue exercising this core process, you will deteriorate and all of the things that are imperfect in us will bubble back up to the surface.
Shannon Scott (32:19.118)
Yeah, leadership doesn't grow by accident.
Masi Willis (32:22.126)
No, it doesn't. Nothing does. mean, weeds do, but weeds grow by accident and then they take over. I cuts is the worst thing ever, but beautiful flowers, beautiful gardens, beautiful plants come with pruning and that is not easy, but it's necessary.
Shannon Scott (32:44.878)
Yeah, so make it matter listeners by doing the work that you have been delaying. We're all delaying something. So make it matter by utilizing this process and doing the work that you have been delaying. Macy, what would you say to people as we close?
Masi Willis (32:58.936)
Yes.
Masi Willis (33:04.108)
Yeah, when you think about it, strong leaders don't avoid the hard things. They face them together and on purpose with a reason behind it. Desire the change sooner than later. That's what great leaders do.
Shannon Scott (33:20.323)
Whew.
That's so good. Well, listeners, you now have yet another tool in your tool belt, the core process. Call it, own it, respond to it, and execute it. And just as a reminder of questions, you can ask yourself, what's the speed bump that I have been avoiding? Have I actually named it? What part of it is mine to own? What is one way that I can respond?
I can commit to and then when will I execute it? So remember you don't have to fix everything but you do have to start. So go out, make it matter and lead like you mean it. We'll see you soon.
Masi Willis (34:06.414)
All right.