Defining Hospitality

Today, host Dan Ryan speaks with Natalia Miyar, an experienced architect and designer with a global footprint and the Founder of Natalia Miyar Atelier. Natalia shares her journey from studying art history to establishing a successful design studio focusing on both high-end residential and hospitality projects. They discuss her design philosophy, the importance of making spaces comfortable and unique, and her transition into the hospitality sector, which includes projects in London and Mexico. Natalia also elaborates on her commitment to mentoring young talent and her aspirations for creating a lifestyle brand in the future. The conversation highlights the blend of practicality and creativity that is essential in design, and the significance of being open to new experiences and opportunities.

Takeaways: 
  • Be open to unexpected paths and seize opportunities that may not have been part of the initial plan. This flexibility can lead to exciting new ventures and growth.
  • Working with a business coach or mentor can provide valuable insights, accountability, and support. This kind of guidance is especially crucial for entrepreneurial growth and overcoming challenges.
  • Diversity in your team can drive creativity and innovation.
  • It's vital to merge creative vision with practical execution. Understanding the balance between artistic freedom and the responsibilities of design ensures projects are both beautiful and functional.
  • Leaders should encourage a culture of continuous learning within their organizations. This includes structured mentoring and internship programs to foster growth and development.
  • Foster an environment where team members feel comfortable expressing their ideas and creativity, even if it pushes the boundaries of the project’s original vision.
  • Being adaptable and willing to change direction when presented with new opportunities or challenges is a valuable trait for leaders.

Quote of the Show:
“I think any entrepreneur will tell you the hardest thing is finding the right people to go on that journey with you.” - Natalia Miyar

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Creators & Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Rayanne Pruitt

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - Natalia Miyar
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[00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan and this is Defining Hospitality.

Dan: Today's guest is a designer with over 20 years of experience. She's an architect, designer, and entrepreneur with immense talent and passion for the design industry. She has a global footprint with offices in London and Miami. She's the founder and creative director of Natalia Miyar Atelier, which she founded nine years ago.

Ladies and gentlemen, Natalia Miyar.

Natalia: Hi, Dan. Thank you.

Dan: It's so good to have you here. I want to, I want to let all of all of our listeners know how this happened and why it's so critical to always, whenever you're anywhere, [00:01:00] never eat alone and reach out to someone who might be where you are. So I was in Spain and I reached out, um, to friends and former colleagues, uh, Jan and Sonia, and we had this wonderful lunch with my wife and kids.

at a beach club, and they mentioned that their daughter, Olivia, was working in London for this amazing designer. Um, you, and that you've done mostly residential, but you're making a big push into hospitality and doing work in Europe and in North America and that we should talk. And so I talked to Olivia, who's this like, amazing rising star, and she put us in touch, and It's just really good.

Again, breaking bread with people and hearing and catching up whenever you're anywhere, always reach out to someone. And it, it's always good to get together. Cause you never know where that path can go. So I thank you, Natalia, [00:02:00] for being a part of this whole lunch, even though you weren't there, two people were moved

Natalia: Do you know how flattering and wonderful that is, uh, to hear? Um, you know, uh, Olivia is indeed a rising star and, you know, one of the greatest things about having a business like mine is that I get to hire and work with these wonderful people. young colleagues that energy and passion and drive. And, you know, when, when Olivia mentioned this conversation that she and, you know, her, her family had had with you, um, as I said, I was very flattered and very excited to chat with you because, um, what are the chances that you'll be at a beach club in Ibiza and then we're sitting here, um, talking about a subject that we both.

whole deer and are interested

Dan: a hundred percent, a thousand percent. And, um, I think that that's a really great. I think it's a great place to start about, you know, as an entrepreneur and a lot of it has to, so much of it has to do with [00:03:00] hospitality. Attracting young, vibrant talent. Um, and I think so much of that all stems from hospitality too.

And so before we get into all of that and your journey and your future. Um, what excites you most about hospitality? Or like, what does it mean? What does hospitality mean to you?

Natalia: hospitality is such, it's, I think it's been a part of my life since I was a kid and you know, in, in, in the most, um, cause we try to define it, I think we, we were, we were talking and I said, it is feeling, you know, creating a place, you know, great hospitality makes anybody, whether it's you or me or somebody else feel at home in a space that isn't there.

That, you know, is, um, whether it's a hotel or someone's home or a restaurant or a private member's club, any of these spaces. And great hospitality has so many different factors Dan. Um, obviously my, my, my, My particular point of interest is the physical [00:04:00] space. Um, but so many layers, you know, what it smells like, what it feels like, what it, you know, what it sounds like in these spaces.

So, um, all of those elements come together to create an experience that hopefully is unique and special and excites you. It elevates your, your day and creates a special experience, but that you feel at home in. And I think that's really the key for me with hospitality. And I think that's why, um, the hospitality projects we've started to do have been well received because I know how to make a home.

I know how to make a space that people feel comfortable in and that's how I approach. My hospitality work.

Dan: Another cool fact about you is that you're trained as an architect and nine years ago, you went out on the, on your, taking your entrepreneurial first steps and starting your, your firm. And I think that's a great place to start as we, cause I do want to get back [00:05:00] into like attracting great people and building a team and having a vision and a strategy around but. Being both an architect, but also falling in love with design originally in your, in your, since you started your firm, you were doing mostly residential, um, high, high end residential. And now that you've been working on some of these projects and hospitality, tell us what, like, initially, Got you into hospitality and now what's making you see this vision of investing your treasure heavily on people and team and strategy to do more and do more, not just in Europe, but also in North America.

Natalia: I mean, there are so many different angles that I can, that, you know, to, to answer that the first thing I would tell you, and I, and I think this is a really interesting thing for anyone who has an entrepreneurial, um, Spirit is that you have to be open to, uh, you have to be open to experiences or paths that you weren't expecting.

And my career, Dan, [00:06:00] almost from the beginning has been, uh, uh, an illustration in, in, in seizing an opportunity that wasn't necessarily part of the linear plan that is a type of a oldest daughter, uh, you know, a person, um, I'm programmed to be, and you know, I had studied art history and architectural history in, in college at university, and I ended up, um, working at, at, at, at a school of architecture because I very much respected the Dean, Elizabeth Plater Zyberk, and it was, you know, like the day before the master's program and saying, Hey, maybe I want to try architecture.

So she said, we'll give it a shot. So that was a complete shift for me in terms of what my plan had been, which was probably to be an art historian somewhere. Um, To that shift. And then from there, great opportunities came about in my career, mostly through the connections of people and staying in touch with people and staying engaged.

And so I practiced [00:07:00] architecture for a number of years in Miami before I decided to move to London and London was probably the first really deliberate, um, shift in my career. You know, just, I was in my early thirties and I said, you know what? I've always wanted to live in London. Let's go and give it a try with no exit strategy, Dan, just like, let's go.

And that also, I applied for some conventional architecture jobs and then an architect friend recommended working for a developer and a design manager at a design practice. So that was a shift. Um, and then eventually. Ending up where I am, you know, having my own, my own business based primarily in London, um, with a focus on interior architecture, interior design and product, but none of that would have been possible in this really rich, exciting, varied career that I've had, that I'm proud of, and that has, um, um, you know, taught me so much and stretched me so much as a person would have been possible had I not been open to a shift in the vision or a shift in the [00:08:00] plan.

And I think that's the same as you meeting Olivia's, you know, family and thinking, Oh, let me have a chat with Natalia. It's that openness, right? It's that openness to opportunity and to, to new experiences that has been important. At least that's how I got started.

Dan: then as far as you're like, when you were talking about what hospitality meant to you, um, before getting into the entrepreneurial journey. How do you think that, that idea on, not on the pro, on the, on the projects that you're designing? Okay. So I get that, right. But how does it help you as far as your business and attracting great young talent?

Like, what, what do you think, how does that idea of hospitality get you to hire people like Olivia or other people on your team, um, as you've been on your entrepreneurial journey?

Natalia: I mean, I think, first of all, you know, residential design is hard. [00:09:00] You know, it's hard, and it's particularly hard for young people. Uh, because, um, they take design so personally, right? And you know, the, the, the toughest job in any office is always your first presentation for, you know, to me, I'm, I'm, I'm my team's first client.

So we give, we give, you know, we give, we'll give it a young designer a brief and have them come back with their ideas and they put their heart and soul into it. And it's just crushing when you have to say, Hey, that's not. That's not the right direction and that's not going to work. And you know, nine out of 10 times when, when I say that to someone, it's not going to work because I I'm reading my client or I'm thinking about the client, I'm thinking about the brief.

So there's an element of taking yourself out of, um, your own personal desires for a design when you're doing residential projects. So, um, I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed the challenge. Um, hospitality is a whole other can of worms because you, you are the, the primary, of course you have a client and you have people that you have to [00:10:00] satisfy and there's a brief and all of that is, is fine.

Um, but there's a lot more room for, Adventure. And, you know, you know, I remember in some of my first meetings on a hotel that we're working on now, I would ask for feedback as I've always done as a residential designer. And they're like, no, but what do you think? Because you're the designer and this, you know, we're, we're buying into your vision.

So it's, it's a shift. So I think young, young people, like they get excited by that. And, and, and they have to worry less about the psychological elements of making a private residential client happy. And I think that's part of the appeal for them.

Dan: that's actually super interesting. And I don't know if I've ever heard it that way. So just to restate what I heard, when you're doing residential, you're asking for feedback because really, In many ways, when you're doing residential, you're a psychologist, right? You're, you're a marriage counselor.

You're all of those things and a designer. [00:11:00] And yes, you have a vision, but there's a lot of feedback because ultimately these people will be living in that place. On the hospitality side, like a more commercial project, they're hiring you for your expertise. And actually, that's really cool. So that the, the younger designers actually get to, Be the experts under obviously your vision to execute.

Whereas on the residential side, there's probably a lot more back and forth based on feedback. And sometimes people don't have the vision. You have to kind of put them in a box and they're like, Ooh, I don't like that. So it's kind of, it's a little more heart wrenching. Oh, that's really, that's pretty awesome.

Hmm.

Natalia: You said it better than I did, but that's, that's, that's exactly what it is. And it, you know, it's so exciting for a young person to come to the table with ideas and then have it, you know, You know, developed into, you know, they see it in a CGI and it's presented to the client. You know, there's a great, there's a great sense of pride in that, which I completely understand.

And I think, you know, I [00:12:00] remember when I was young, I actually, I remember my first project in architecture school, which, you know, wasn't great because I didn't listen to the brief. I didn't listen to the, you know, what I was meant to be doing. I had this vision of what I wanted to do and I ignored the brief and I got a B, which was very upsetting, but very fair, actually a bit generous.

If I look back and think about it, no, it was generous. You know, I was meant to design a house according to the town code and I ignored the code because I had, I loved this shingle house I had always seen. And anyway, um, I digress, but the point is that was such a great lesson for me, you know, and the professor didn't tell me your, your grade is going to suffer because you're not following the code.

He let me, he let me go down that path. And, um, you know, and that's like, I can't do that in business. I have in the past, I've, you know, allowed a young designer to present something to a client that I didn't think was right because I didn't want to crush their, their spirit. But actually we ended up losing that client and it was worse for everybody.

So now I've really [00:13:00] learned that my, my first job is to make sure they have a paycheck. So I have to keep the work there and I have to keep focused on my clients. Um, But there's, you know, designers are young creative people, young architects, young designers, they're creative people, and there's a lot of passion and spirit and sometimes sensitivity that comes with that creative side.

Uh, so it's a fine balance that I'll be honest, I don't always get right,

Dan: that actually, to be so humble to realize that, look, we have vision, but sometimes we don't get it right. You know, that's pretty awesome. And I think really essential for successful entrepreneurs. And going back to that, what you originally said of being open to experiences or paths that you haven't expected.

That was really. a great mindset for you as you've taken that entrepreneurial leap. And that's on one side. On the other side of that, it's like, okay, you're, you're open to all these things and you, [00:14:00] but with no exit strategy, right? So you're going, so you've built a successful project, mostly in London doing residential.

And so what I'd like you to do is just talk at a high level of the types of residential projects you would work on. And then how did this. No exit strategy towards hospitality come up, like what was the first thing that came over the transom with your firm and what has, what's given you the confidence to invest treasure and attract people to build out this hospitality vision you have?

Natalia: Well, you know, it's been an incredible privilege to do the residential projects that I've done. Almost from the beginning, we were working internationally, so I do You know, we've done, um, They're usually big fancy houses, Dan, or apartments and really special places. And, you know, in the past few years, we've worked everywhere from, [00:15:00] um, you know, Spain to, um, Switzerland to Colorado, to Miami, to New York, London.

Um, we've done a project in Kuwait. I mean, we've done, it's, it's really been amazing, the diversity. And, and what's great is that my clients are diverse. My office is diverse. I love an international. I love an international crowd. I love people from different Says

Dan: Cuban American who immigrated to the United Kingdom.

Natalia: Correct. Born in Mexico. I mean,

yeah,

Dan: Oh, I didn't know that part. Wow. You're, you're really, you've got both hemispheres under your belt. That's great.

Natalia: I am confused, Dan. I don't know what to tell you, where I'm from, but no, but the reality is, yeah, a lot of my clients reflect, um, well, you can, we connect, right? They connect, you know, they're, a lot of them are based in London, but they may come from other countries.

And, and my team, incredibly international. I think we counted the other day and there are like almost 40 different languages [00:16:00] spoken in my office, which is amazing. Um, and I love, but you know, to go back to how we ended up in hospitality again, it was, it was a great opportunity. It was, uh, basically I had done a residential project, um, two independent residential projects for the owners of this wonderful hotel in London.

And, um, they, uh, they reached out and said, can you help us with this? And I think they were happy with the work I had done with them, with them for them. And that's how my first, uh, hotel project, the 22 in London, um, came about and that's 31 rooms, private members club, restaurants. It's, it's been an incredible project.

And it, you know, it, I, it opened my eyes. And I think it relates very much to how exciting, how demanding, how fulfilling hospitality design can be. And I'm not kidding, Dan, when I tell you that when I was designing the 22 and [00:17:00] through a series of circumstances, I, you know, I came in towards the end and, We were designing and building like almost, we were walking around with a contractor and saying move this, do that.

It was that much pressure to get it all done. Um, I didn't sleep for about six months. I thought, Oh my goodness, I'm going to get this all wrong. I've never done a restaurant. I'm just going to get it wrong. And I'm never, I'm never going to go there. I'm just never going to go because all I'll see are the mistakes, and you know what, I'm there all the time, and I love it, and of course I see things that, you know, you know, you would do differently, or, you know, I think, you know, if you think, if you think you're great, you're not that great, you just have to keep learning and trying harder, but, um, It was a fantastic experience.

And from that, from that have come a number of other projects that we're doing now. So we're working on a hotel in Mexico in Los Cabos, which is sort of full circle to where I grew up. And that's really nice. Um, and then we have a couple of projects in London. a hotel and a private members club that we're [00:18:00] doing.

And so, yes, so this hospitality side of my business has taken off and, uh, we're loving it. And obviously I had to bring people in on, you know, into the team who, who know more about hospitality design than I do. Um, I think it's really important to know what you don't know and what you're not good at, um, and make sure that you supplement those, um, those needs or you, or you meet those needs in the office with people who are more

talented than you

Dan: You know, um, just to paint the picture for everyone, um, The 22 is in Mayfair, which is probably one of the, is that, that's the nicest neighborhood in London, arguably, would you say?

Natalia: Arguably, it's pretty special. Yeah, definitely, definitely.

Dan: it's a pretty special place, number one. Number two, there's been a rise in these, um, private members clubs that have a hotel component. And restaurants. And I just found it funny that you hadn't done a restaurant [00:19:00] before and you were thrown into restaurants. Um, yeah. How do, um, How does this membership, private members model for the 22 compare or contrast to other ones like, what, what makes this one special?

And how did you, Bring your previous sensibilities from the residential side into this project.

Natalia: Do you know, London has a long, I mean, long tradition of private members clubs, you know, and I think it's, it's coming to the US as well. We're seeing it increasingly more and more here. Um, and they used to be, you know, the very early ones were obviously very much about you know, social standing and things like that.

And then there were some clubs that started opening up for, um, industries or like, you know, for the theater world or, or for, um, for writers and things like that. And the 22, which is a Mayfair, uh, private members club. And there are a number of wonderful private members clubs in Mayfair. It's sort of like the heart of it in London.[00:20:00]

Um, really is the vision, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the owners and the main visionary behind it, Navid Mirtorabi, wanted a place that he calls for the creative and the curious. And so that was a great brief, right? He didn't want the same crowd that you get. at every private members club, which in Mayfair is often wealth driven. And he wanted to have a really cool designer from Shoreditch feel comfortable there. And, um, and so the, you know, and, and as well as the Mayfair crowd, but, you know, anybody who was creative and curious could feel at home at the 22. And unlike a lot of members clubs, it doesn't have a dress code because he thinks he doesn't have to tell you how to dress to look great.

Most people look great to be fair at the 22, but you know, you don't, you know how to dress for, for, for, for a cool night out. Um, but there were two things from a design point of view that we did, which I think were interesting. The first was that we designed a hotel that very, at a club that very much has, I want to call it an [00:21:00] old world vibe.

You know, everyone thinks that if you're doing a club for young people, it's got exposed brick and it's industrial and it's, you know, no, we did a very glamorous sort of, 18th century French inspired interior because it's a very French building in the heart of Mayfair. And so I think that was interesting.

It said, okay, we want a young crowd and we want it to be cool. And yes, show up in, in, in trainers and, you know, and jeans, but look really cool. But you're going to be in a very glamorous setting because You know, you don't have to be a hipster to feel comfortable, you know, to, to, you don't have to have hipster design.

I'm sorry. I'm sure that I'm offending a million people by saying that, but you know what I mean? You know, that, that, that stereotypical vision, that it can be glamorous and grand and beautiful materials and velvets and all of these things. So that's one thing we did. And the second thing, and this is, you know, where my expertise came into play, we made everything really comfortable.

You know, the sofas are comfortable, they're slouchy, they're comfortable. Not slouchy, they're comfortable, and you can slouch into them. Um, you know, I [00:22:00] approached the design the same way I would a residential space. you know, beautiful colors, great lighting, dim lighting, so that everybody looks even more beautiful.

Um, so I think those elements of residential design informed it. And then of course, you know what I said before, you want a place that feels a little bit aspirational and glamorous and exciting. It doesn't have to be exactly like your home. In fact, you don't want that. It's a bit of an escape, but you should still feel at home in this place.

Dan: and and just so I'm clear, so you did a residential project for them, and then they brought you in, and I want to go back to that time where, okay, you, you have a vision for a residential client, and you get a lot of feedback. Okay. you did say that when you did your first hotel projects, they're like, no, you're, we're hiring you for your vision.

They didn't bring in their residential experience into that. And, and was how, was that like really, um, unsettling or were you waiting? For, for [00:23:00] some kind of feedback that might've been more from like your residential institutional memory. And then you're like, wow, this is actually pretty great. And like, is that what's exciting you most about this new journey as you develop your hospitality arm?

Natalia: it is, I mean, look, Dan, I don't run out of ideas. I run out of time. I mean, I, I am just like, my mind goes a mile a minute and it's not a stretch. You know, if somebody says, Oh, just design this. It's not hard for me to get inspired and get excited about it. Um, and so I love that, that energy and creativity and, and enthusiasm that I have has an outlet that won't be stifled because it's not at all the creative vision of my clients.

And I'm careful to say that because I don't, I, I'm, I'm not unhappy that there's a, you know, when you do residential design, and by the way, there, there are a lot of pre Madonna's out there who will be a diva and tell their client, this is how it has to be. [00:24:00] I'm not one of them. I think that's why I have so much repeat business.

I really believe in, in giving voice to what my clients are looking for, but yes, of course, you know, it's very exciting in hospitality design, you know, to like this hotel we're doing in Mexico. I'm kind of obsessed with ceramics. It's like a weird obsession that I have, like wherever I go, anywhere in the world, I have to buy ceramics and things.

And I think it comes from growing up in Mexico, where that is a big part of the, um, the artistic world and the craft world and a part of, of, of individual communities. You know, you go to a place like Oaxaca, which is known for barro negro, which is this black clay is very chic, very monochrome, very cool.

And I, I knew I had all of these memories. in my mind, either real or imagined. So I'm a ceramics freak. So one of my, when they asked me to do this hotel in Mexico, so much of it has to do with this, you know, history that I have with, with, with Mexican ceramics and a wallpaper I'm [00:25:00] designing based on abstracted patterns on that and, you know, working with an incredible, studio in, in Guadalajara called Cerámica Suro to create one of a kind pieces.

So all of that is really exciting for me. And, and, you know, It's nice to be able to sit in the meeting and say, okay, this, this creatively is the right way to go and not have to go back and have that squashed by someone who said, no, I don't want to work. I don't want a turquoise, bathroom.

Dan: what type of project is that that you're doing in Los Cabos?

Natalia: So that's a lovely one. So that's a hotel. Um, you know, we, we can't give names until it launches, but it's a, it's a, it's a five star plus resort and it's a really great experience. And we're doing, um, we're redoing some, you know, their suites and we're doing a big villa for them, which is really lovely. And, and it's been, it's been kind of like going home and it's great because I go and I do meetings there and it's in Spanish and it, you know, it feels great.

It's exciting. And then. On the other side, we've been working on a, on a [00:26:00] hotel project in London, in Belgravia, which is adjacent to Mayfair, so another fancy town, part of town. Um, and we're doing a private members club in that area as well. And so that's really exciting. And it's, it's really fun for the team, I think, um, to have those two very distinct briefs. The Mexican, beachy vibe. And then London is totally different. Um, you, people don't come to me. I mean, please don't come to me for cookie cutter design. I'm not interested. I'm not interested in a house tile. I'm not interested in any of that. I'm interested in like projects that are individual and really resonate with the context.

And so that's why it's fun for me.

Dan: And then aside from being able to not in an unfettered way, execute your vision on a, on a commercial or hospitality type project. Um,

Natalia: There are a lot of parameters in that. correct. No, I, I, I get that, but like, okay. So, but that's also freeing in a way, right? Cause you're not like, you're not waiting for that left hook, so to [00:27:00] speak.

Dan: But what was, what was something else that. surprised you that was probably the surprising other than that aspect that is helping you see this opportunity and put a lot of effort and investment towards growing this channel. I

Natalia: it's almost embarrassing, but it's just, look, I think we, we spend a lot of time at work and I'd like to do things I enjoy. Right. And I think, I think, you know, the, the hospitality world is exciting. There just seem to be so many projects at any given time.

They're quick. I usually, I mean, actually not always, but for the most part, there, there, there are ambitious timelines, which suits me just fine. I, you know, I like to work quickly. My team may not appreciate my, my putting my hand up whenever a client asks. Oh, can I have this in two weeks? I'm like, sure, we'll make it work.

Um, but no, I think it's a joyful process to design with. a unique narrative for each place. So, [00:28:00] you know, the hotel in Belgravia, I mean, we spent, we pitched against 12 people. So, and we're thrilled when we won, but, you know, the old art history nerd that I am just came out in full force, Dan.

I was, you know, reading about the location and, and, and there were so many historical references and color palettes inspired by, um, historical references and paintings that come from my art history days. I mean, it's just, it's just fun. Um, that's so basic, right? I like hospitality cause it's fun, but you know, life, life's short.

my, my almost 20 years in London have gone by in a flash.

Dan: we all do these things in our day to day where we're, it's the what we do, And we oftentimes in doing the what, we forget about the why. And if you're open, but if you're, if you stay open to new experiences and just surprise, you're like, Oh, wow, I like that.

What, but this other what is pretty cool. And I find it more fun and let's go there. And I think [00:29:00] for a lot of the conversations that I have. Um, with all the incredibly creative humans that are on this podcast over the past three years. it's really that excitement of always being open. And, and it's also the challenge of, look, we got to make payroll and we have to pay rent and we have to keep the doors open, so to speak.

Um, but making space for that openness, I think is absolutely Critical. And as entrepreneurs, sometimes we're just like building the airplane as we fly. And we don't, we don't dedicate enough time to that. So is there anything in your daily, weekly, monthly routine that you do to, to stay open to those new experiences?

Natalia: Ooh, that's a great question. I think, I, I think a lot of it is personality. Um, I've just, I think my mom said I was always just a very enthusiastic kid. You know, I was a happy, enthusiastic kid and I, and I still am. Uh, but I, I stay curious, you know, I stay curious and I, and I travel a lot, [00:30:00] probably a little bit more than I like.

I travel a lot for work. Um, yeah. But you know, when I'm there, I'm, I'm, as, as you were in Spain, I'm out. And you know, if I don't know anybody, I'm not just sitting in my room having room service. I'm, I'm out and I want to see spaces and I want to see new things. And I think I, I, I'm just curious. I don't know that you can teach it.

I'm trying to think now and, and it's maybe unfair on my team, but I don't think anybody is as excited for a new project in my office as I am. Like, or maybe it's just, you know, sometimes in England, it's very reserved and I'm like a Latin. I'm waiting for exuberance. And sometimes I'm met with like, yeah, that's great.

Natalia. I'm like, come on, people try a little harder. You know, that American effervescence that we have in the, in the U S where I am right now. Um, sometimes that's missing a little bit in my very, Elegant, with my very elegant London team. They're a little bit more reserved. Um, but that's the whole point of this, right?

And when we get a new [00:31:00] project, I'm like, Okay, let's go buy the books. Let's go to a new art show. Like, find the creativity. Go explore. You just have to be open every day. You just have to live open.

Dan: Um, I want to go back to this, The members only clubs with the, with the room and the restaurant component With the 22, How, where would you put that in a spectrum of These types of clubs that are, they're growing a lot in North America right now.

I know that they've been like a staple in, in the UK, in London in particular. But like, where, how would you position it or triangulate the 22 in relation to others?

Natalia: I mean, it's difficult. It is a Mayfair private members club. I mean, you know, it's certainly, um, you know, it's at a certain price point. What, you know, I am trying to find an elegant way of saying it,

but I can't, you know, it's, it's, yeah, it's luxury. It's luxury. And the, you know, the, the, the, the restaurant's fantastic, but the pricing is luxury, you know, it is, it is, but I think it is, uh, you know, a lot, there are.

And again, [00:32:00] there are great private members clubs in London, places like Oswald's or, or Hartford Street or Maison Estelle. There are some really lovely ones. I think people just find the one that they vibe with. It's that simple, Dan, you know, and I think at the 22, it's got a very cool, um, youthful, dynamic, great music.

Um, um, even though, you know, there are people of all ages who feel at home there. I think, yeah, I think, I think it's pretty unique in that, in that sense. Um, that it's Mayfair and it has the glamour, but it has a more youthful

and they have one opening up in New York

Natalia: They have one opening up in New York. Yeah, they've been working on that one since before the London one.

So I think the New York one will be great. I'm sure it'll be an interesting one. They've been working on it for a long time. Um, And maybe, you know, hopefully they'll do another one. Maybe they'll call me again. so.

Dan: I think they will. I mean, just judging by the press that I researched on the one in London and just, it just [00:33:00] looks fantastic. And it's also, you know, on that luxury side, you know, and when you're doing hospitality as well, and you're trying and you're doing luxury, it's like balancing all those being able to slouch and be comfortable and things, but also long term durability.

Right? How did you? How do you

approach

Natalia: point. Well, actually it's interesting and I'm glad you mentioned that because, you know, part of why I, I, I was brought into the 22 London, you know, by the owners having no hospitality experiences, because I'm a very practical designer. You know, as much as I've told you about the ideas and the creativity, all of that is true.

You know, design is 90 percent project management. And there are budgets and restrictions and timelines and things that you have to respect. And I respect them. you

Dan: Just not in

Natalia: uh, no, that was, that was graduate school.

Dan: no, with the project you did at, in

Natalia: Exactly. That was, that was in graduate school. No, that obviously did not respect, you know what I would, my undergraduate had no [00:34:00] curriculum.

I was obviously feeling very, very mouthy by the time I got to graduate school, but you know, architecture will whip you into shape. Um, but no, even that, like, you know, I, I, I think I'm a pretty practical person for things. And, you know, if there's a budget, I stick to it and, you If I say I'm going to do something, I do it.

That's the one thing that drives me crazy. Um, so the, all of those practical things were there with the 22, you know, we, we, we would do, there was the creative work, but obviously within the structure of what's done. And also, you know, I had a great relationship with the client, you know, I really listened to them.

I respect, uh, especially Navid, we worked very closely on it. It's very much his vision, you know, I just, I wanted to make that happen, but he was very open to, to, to my expertise in it as well. So I think if you, you know, it, and this is something really important, Dan, and you know, a lot of, again, going back to the young designers, and I was saying before about crushing their dreams when they present something I know the client isn't going to love, you know, design is not.

You know, you're not a [00:35:00] painter. You're not a photographer. You're not a sculptor. You're not somebody who is producing work that somebody can choose to have or not, right? There's a responsibility to it. And you're doing, you're working construction. So there, there, there are structural elements that are important.

There are practical elements that are important. You know, you, you need to design a room where, you know, the bed fits and the door's open and, you know, you haven't put a door that's going to clash with your head. I mean, it's just basic, it sounds It sounds basic, but believe it or not, sometimes people struggle with this.

So I have a very sort of practical common sense approach. We've got to get the functionality right and we've got to meet the brief, which is time and budget and all of these things. And then within those parameters, then be as wildly creative as you can.

Dan: I really appreciate that perspective. Fine art is really about do you like it or not? There's a choice and you move on. I've not heard it said in a way that there's a responsibility [00:36:00] To design, right? Because there's all those other, I mean, I know it, but I've never heard, I've never heard that distinction, right?

Um, but it, it, it totally sounds true. when did you first come up with that epiphany and be able to kind of find that tension between fine art and design? So just like they're either gonna like it or they're not on fine art or design, like there's a responsibility, there's budget, there's vision, there's timing, there's Everything.

When did you figure that out? And

Natalia: up thinking. I, um, probably when I was studying art history, I can't remember who, who, who the quote is. And I think it's something like painting and sculpt, uh, painting and sculpture tell us who we want to be. Architecture tells us who we are. You know, you read, you know, you read the, the values of a society in the architecture.

You know, the legacy of a particular moment in time is their built world, you know, and yes, the paintings and sculpture are the more [00:37:00] aspirational, romantic, you know. And I think that probably started it and then coupled with going to graduate school in a very practical architecture program, you know, where the architect is more of a creative builder.

possibly than, you know, an abstract visionary. Like, Oh, look at this white cube space. What do you feel? What does it say? I, I've never bought into that. Um, uh, I think, you know, we, as architects, we create spaces for people to live in every aspect of their life. And you have to elevate that, you know, you have to do the best bedroom.

You can, you have to do the best hospital room. You can't, you have to do a school that's conducive to, you know, people feeling comfortable. It's very basic people, you know, feel comfortable in some spaces and not in others. Um, so yeah, I think probably it was a more academic sense and then it's served me well in business.

I think my clients know that I respect, I very much respect the responsibility of being appointed to do a project.

Dan: [00:38:00] other thing I keep coming back to that you said earlier, it's just that idea of no exit strategy. And it just reminds me of like, one of my favorite stories in history is the Peloponnesian war, uh, Athenians or Spartans, but there's this one story and I can't remember his name right now, but it was an Athenian admiral was went to go invade Sicily.

And they were down food and supplies and they basically beached, all the soldiers got off and he burned the boats, right? And he said, okay, take the, take, I think it was Syracuse, they were going after Syracusa. And um, as you look into the future of your residential business, your hospitality business, where do you, where's the most exciting no exit strategy that you have in your, in your future?

Natalia: Dan, there are so many things I want to do. Definitely the hospitality side is a big one. Um, I also, you know, I, I, I have this vision [00:39:00] of a lifestyle brand that I'd like to create. you know, I, I have a friend in London who's a very successful designer and she always says, Natalia, what's, what's, what's fun, what's fun about you is that you actually live what you, what you talk about.

Like I do, I'm, I love entertaining Dan. I have people over all the time. I drink my coffee out of the most beautiful ceramic that I can find. Like I really enjoy living and I enjoy sharing it with people I love. And I think there's something really nice about it. about that. And I think, um, I've learned so much from people who have shared their approach to living in a didactic way, whether it's in magazines or books or product or social media now, you know, there's so much that I enjoy and I'd love to share my particular vision.

And, you know, that's product, that might be, you know, more, more, um, you know, more social media content, talking about, you know, why we, why we do things the way we do them or, you know, what makes [00:40:00] a great space. Um, that, that's exciting. I'd love a no exit strategy there. And I'd, I'd love, um, I'd love to have a product line in the future.

I don't know. I, I, I'd also still love to do great residential projects. You know, that's not something that I, I'd love to get, that I want to give up.

Dan: let's let's go with, uh, let's do a thought experiment here. So that lifestyle brand where it's product, let's say who knows what product, but I have a feeling it'll have something to do with lifestyle. Ceramics, but maybe

not. Right? I mean, based on your, your, joy so you're always iterating and seeing and experiencing, whether it's in Guadalajara or anywhere else in the world, this love of ceramics. So at what point do you have enough information and courage to land on that beach and burn the boats and not have the exit plan. Like And I'm not going to hold you to this, but like, and I don't want to like isolate too much [00:41:00] to just the ceramic idea, but like, whatever that thing is, how, at what point do you have the, the courage to take that step?

Natalia: this may loop back to some of the conversations we've had about being an entrepreneur and running a business. You know, running a business is not easy. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm the mate, I'm the, I'm the sole business owner. Um, you know, I've got 24 people on payroll, you know, and in 40 languages was amazing and crazy.

And, um, and then I have the responsibility of probably anywhere between 12 to 18 projects on the go at any given time. And I think any entrepreneur will tell you the hardest thing is finding the right people to go on that journey with you. Finding the right team, staff, I mean whatever you want to call it, it's all of the above.

And that has probably been the biggest challenge. Uh, in our business and every, every entrepreneur that I talk about says the same thing. You know, when I started my business, I hired a lot of people [00:42:00] who had worked successfully with me in a bigger studio that I used to run and they completely fell apart in a startup.

They missed the structure, like the things that made our working relationship great. In the previous experience, you know, Uh, wasn't there when you're four people in a, in a studio, kind of just figuring everything out. So it's been a huge learning curve for me and I've had to stretch and mold and adapt.

And then we had COVID in the middle, which was, you know, in the UK and very strict shutdowns and everything. It, it certainly slowed our business down. Like we were doing great. And then COVID hit and then we had to restructure and regroup and, you know,

recenter the

Dan: person I've heard say that. Uh, CRO,

Natalia: Of course, I'm sure, but you know what I mean?

It's, it's, it's, it's been like, it is a rollercoaster. It is. It's been a, it's been a rollercoaster. So we're, we're in a fantastic moment now. And then we had the hospitality projects and then finding the right people. [00:43:00] And I have a fantastic hospitality team now. I'm very happy with them. So. Once I feel, you know, and that's been new, right?

So it's now restructuring the business. So we have the hospitality side and the residential side, and you know, you have the operations side. Um, so that lifestyle products, ceramics binge that I'm going to do is going to happen when I feel I've got the right structure in place. And that's always a work in progress.

the other thing I've done for 10 years, and I would tell any entrepreneur is to work with a business coach. You know, and, and especially creatives, right? I had no business training either in undergrad, which is fine. I, you know, I did a liberal arts degree. That was Probably the best business strategy I learned as an undergrad. Critical thinking, problem solving, you know, research, all of that. Huge, hugely beneficial. But you also need practical experience. Had nothing in architecture school. I think there's maybe one course on practice, but nobody's paying attention [00:44:00] because you're worried about your studio project and it seems so abstract.

So you learn that on the job and a lot of architects and designers are not particularly great business people.

Dan: agree wholeheartedly everyone on THE BUSINESS COACH and some of the greatest leaps and bounds that I've had as an entrepreneur have been through business coaches.

Natalia: A hundred percent.

Dan: And it's, it's similar to a personal trainer. Like they create accountability, they have their own experience based on a lot of experience and they just push a little bit more and it gets really uncomfortable.

Really uncomfortable. Uh, give your business coach a shout out.

Natalia: Oh, her name is Ashley West Dyke. She's amazing. She's based in London and I connect her with anybody who wants to be connected with like the best, What? empowering lady you could ever meet.

Dan: Oh, wow. Okay. And we'll, we'll, we'll get her name and we'll put it in the notes too. So,

Natalia: Yeah, put it in there because it's like a funny spelling and I never say it

Dan: uh, great. So, from the coaches that I've had, I [00:45:00] appreciate two things. One is just the tools they bring to the table to help organize the people, the cash, the strategy, and the execution, right? And create accountability to that, but that's on the good side. On the bad side, It really sucks sometimes, because like, usually when I've had them, they're around my whole team, and they, the light shines on me, and it's, it's very uncomfortable, and I have to change if I expect others to change.

So what are the, what do you love most about Ashley, and what do you

Natalia: Ashling. Ash. We can call her.

A I S L I. I

Dan: Irish name. Got

it. Or Celtic name. But if you, what do you love most about her, and what do you like, fear most about her?

Natalia: great questions. You know, I, she started coaching me. So before I set up my own business, I was working for a design firm in London and very sadly the lady who founded the firm passed away and her family asked me to run the business after she [00:46:00] died, which was great training ground. And they very kindly reached out to, they knew Aisling and they said, can you, can you, can you give her a hand?

I mean, here's this Cuban American girl in her late thirties running a, you know, an important design studio in London for a family and for the. The, you know, the lady's kids, et cetera. So it was a big ask. It was very stressful. I started working with her there. So she coached me. You know, through all of that.

And then she coached me when I set up on my own, what I love about her is that she is 100 percent on team Natalia. So any, anything she tells me, I know is for my own good. And I don't have a problem with the light shining on me. Yeah. I might get a little spicy initially and say, and push back, but I think it's important to hear.

but. I really value her counsel. And when you're a sole business owner and you don't have a business partner, you need that because everybody who's giving you advice in the company works for you. It's very different, you know, than somebody who's like, Hey, [00:47:00] I'm on your team and I want this to go really well.

So I've got to give you these hard truths, or I've got to give you that. Um, what I fear is when she tells me it's, it's my fault, although I know very often what it is and, and, and, and it's fair, you know, it's fair to hear, to hear it, but I had, I actually. I'm, she's now coaching my senior management team, um, which is very common in the US.

It's not common in the UK, you know, and certainly not in a design studio. So I'm really trying to put my money where my mouth is and build this team and have them all grow. Um, you know, and I, I, I hope it pays off for, for, for the, for, you know, the people that she's coaching and, you know, for the business as well.

So I imagine I'm going to hear all sorts of things that I need to do

I think it will pay off. And for me, that was, I, I had one with my team and I just remember on monthly we would meet and then we'd all have these accountability things to do along the way. And I just remember dreading those meetings, but I also loved it because my [00:48:00] team got so much out of it.

Dan: And it was almost like. A graduate school or a learning, and the people that we would bring on board were all curious. And, um, but I dreaded them because I remember at one point we'd be talking about things and I would be oversharing or saying my ideas. I remember he once said, like, you, Dan, you have to shut up.

Just shut up. You have great people around this table. Let them get their ideas out. And I was like, but I have to tell you that shut up thing.

Natalia: that's a bit, did you feel, was it okay? Or did you feel,

Dan: it was okay. Because then really great things came out. And I had just had

like, we all, I mean, and I'm not like a challenger. Like I always like to challenge ideas or challenge the way things are going. I want to build a better mousetrap, but it also, I think that feedback is crazy and embarrassing and mortifying as it was in front of the team.

Yeah.

Natalia: yeah. That's the part that I'm like, [00:49:00] wow. In front of the I think, I think he said, I think he said, shut the fuck up.

Oh

Dan: It was awesome. It was really great. And I appreciate it, but it also helped me evolve to where I could do like a podcast like this, because like, if I'm doing my job well, and what I learned from him, Mark Green was just, you know, two ears, one mouth. Um, and I also, sometimes I lose sight of that and I'm still trying to challenge. Um, But I just needed to do it in a different way. Um, but it's a, it's a tremendous growth thing and that uncomfortableness that I felt, um, it helped me grow as a person, as a leader, um, as a human. And so I, it'll be a really interesting with the team and you, and especially when you start looping it around strategy and getting everyone else's buy in.

Um, I'm really excited for you. That's really, that is awesome.

Natalia: I think, listen, I think it's terrific. And, and, and, and some of the best advice she gave me early on was to listen, you're absolutely right. You know, and, to shut up and, [00:50:00] and, and. The forum in the many places where you just need to listen to people, um, giving you the feedback, you know, it's hard in the UK because people don't, especially Americans.

We think that they're, you know, the UK and the U S are very similar. Let me tell you, they are so different culturally. And I am very American in my work ethic. And, and, you know, that's where I studied. That's most of my professional experience. And I've had to learn how to work with people in the, in the, in the UK.

Probably not always with great success, but there's much more reserve, much less emotional, much less, you know, the same way they don't show enthusiasm. They don't necessarily show negativity. People can be, you know, there's, there, there's a, there's a, there's a reserve that is genuine, um, um, to, to, to British culture and business that, um, that's why like a business coach seems like a crazy thing.

Whereas Americans are like, give it to me. What other coaching can you throw at

Dan: Totally.

Natalia: And I've had to say this is, this is not remedial. [00:51:00] This is actually the coaching is for the achieve, you know, the high achievers in the office.

Dan: A hundred percent. So, if you were to magically appear in front of the Natalia who disregarded the local code in your graduate school architecture program, the Natalia I'm talking to now magically appears in front of your younger self who didn't pay attention to that. And just wanted to execute her ideas.

What advice would you have for yourself?

Natalia: That's a great question. And part of me wants to tell her to do it all again, you know, don't follow the code because that was a lesson. You know, and you have to learn it, and it's less dangerous to learn it in graduate school in an abstract academic project than it is in a construction site. Um, no, I probably, I don't know, Dan, it's a really great question, yes.

I mean, there's a lot of wisdom that I probably would give my younger

Dan: No, I think, I think I think that's a great answer. I don't think you need to change it

[00:52:00] because

Natalia: I, I, yeah, I don't think I can.

Yeah. You learn more from your mistakes and your failures and the things that don't go right than you do from the successes, you know? And, and, and, and people, and I have failed in a lot of ways.

I have fallen down in, in ways in my work life, in my, my private life and in every way. And you know what? The one thing I can tell you, Dan, is I'm going to try and learn from it and pick myself back up. And so I think young Natalia should just keep doing that track. And cause it got me here. And it's not so bad.

Dan: Okay. And now another question is what's exciting you most about the future from your point of view?

Natalia: I love working with the young people in my office. You know, I've recently started structuring an internship program in a, in a, in a, in a more profound way. Um, I, uh, I was doing a bit of mentoring, um, for my, my, my university alma mater, [00:53:00] Brown, and I've had interns from Brown and that's felt really great to have young people who come from, you know, have come to London, uh, to learn what it is to do.

So I'm doing a lot of work with them. I love that. And also with my, my high school here in Miami, my all girls sacred hearts school, I've had some girls come to London. I'm really enjoying that. I'm enjoying being, you know, having an office that is a forum where where young women in particular, or it could be young men, but it's a very female heavy industry, um, can explore their potential and their capabilities.

Um, I think that's really nice. And I have a lot of young people who work for me and I think that's just, you know, it's exciting and terrific.

Dan: So actually,

Natalia: of this world.

Dan: Olivia Vanderhagen, ladies and

gentlemen, um, that's actually really interesting because when I, in the beginning I was, I was asking how you attract great people like Olivia and thank you for sharing the internship stuff because again, whether [00:54:00] they want to pursue a career in design and the responsibility, as you say, that is, um, Attached to that.

They may not like it. It might be a hot stove to them, but at least they know they're, Hey, I'm going a different way. So it's like the ultimate gift, um, to give these opportunities, um, to younger people. And I, and again, and like one of the, my favorite channel, I get so much feedback on doing these and publishing these conversations, but it's from the younger people who said, I didn't know I could do that.

Or, well, that's really interesting. Or I don't like that. Or, um, I never considered being like, I love design, but I never considered being a project manager or I'm a project manager. I love design and I, I didn't know, I thought it was too late. I didn't know I could go that way.

And it's, it's like, it's impactful in ways that we just don't know.

Natalia: Well, I'll give you another example because it doesn't just have to be, you know, young, uh, high schoolers or, or, or college [00:55:00] graduates. Um, we have a third career. We've just had a third career young woman, uh, do an internship again through the happenstance of a conversation with a mutual friend and it, it, it led to that.

And she is a really, really interesting, um, person. woman who, you know, had beauty brand and then has been doing personal coaching and decided to go into design. And she's starting with us full time in September, you know, and she's a mom and, and I love her. I love her profile in my business because All of that experience that she's had in other industries is just going to enrich the work she does as a designer.

And that is only capable, that, that was only possible through our internship program. So absolutely, you know, for me, that's a huge thing. And we do try and do, by the way, it's not an internship where you just go and get coffee and tidy up, you know, I, we, we try and make it so that there's real practical hands on experience.

So you get a sense I'd rather they [00:56:00] decide they don't want to go into design than spend four years So can do this in design school or architecture school without having had a taste of what it could be.

Dan: A hundred percent.

Natalia: Um, so that's, that, that, that's, that is, excites me. All my projects excite me. My next dinner party, excites me.

Um, my next trip,

Dan: Great. I'm going to have to time a excites me. or Miami around your next dinner party.

Natalia: You must, you must, well, no, there will be one in your honor. There will be one in your honor. So you let me know where, when you're going to be, we'll do one in each place. They're very different. I entertain very differently in each place. It's

Dan: good.

Natalia: Talk about being contextual.

Dan: can't wait. Um, Natalia, this has just been a wonderful conversation. I'd like to thank, um, Sonja Vanderhagen for creating the breadcrumb trail to make this happen. And Olivia for reaching out and, wow, So, thank

Natalia: Who knew? It's been an absolute delight to talk to you. I feel like we could have talked for hours, so

Dan: We still can. And now, um, If people wanted to learn more about [00:57:00] you or your firm, what's the best way for them to get in touch?

Natalia: Our website is great and there's a lot of information there as well as, you know, an email to connect to. I'm also very good if you message me directly on Instagram. Um, I like to, I, I'm really in touch with that. I love that you can connect with people so easily there.

Dan: Perfect. I'll put, yeah, I'll put all that up there. And, um, I just want to, I'd be remiss again without thanking our listeners. Thank you. Um, thank you for listening and just, I don't know, being, giving me the lift to just really look forward to these conversations every week. So please be sure to share it, like it, subscribe.

Give a, leave a rating, leave five stars, whatever. It all helps. It all helps get out there to people who might be considering coming into this world. And, you.

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