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Licensed psychologist Dr. Jen McWaters, and wellness coach Kaitlin Reed, join forces to help women create an abundant life through holistic wellness practices, mindset shifts, and fostering a healthy relationship with food and their bodies. Join us as we take a deep dive and uncover the raw truth about mental health, nutrition, fitness, and beyond, offering insights and strategies for transformative growth.
Dr. Jen McWaters is a licensed psychologist and a holistic wellness coach for women. She is a Certified Integrative Mental Health Professional and is passionate about helping high-achieving women overcome their mental blocks, find freedom from anxiety, and create an abundant life inside and out. Find out more about her work at: awakeningholistichealth.com
Kaitlin Reed is a fitness, nutrition, and mental wellness coach on a mission to help women build the body and life they deserve and desire. She has BAs in Health Promotion and Wellness & Fitness Management, MA in Performance Psychology, currently pursuing her Ph.D. in Health Psychology. Her goal is to help women finally understand the science and strategy of nutrition and exercise so they can achieve their goals and live an empowered life. Head over to kaitlinreedwellness.com to learn more.
DISCLAIMER: This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your personal physician if you have any personal medical questions.
Welcome to the Counter Culture Health podcast. I'm doctor Jen McWaters. And I'm coach Caitlin Reed. We're here to help high achieving women overcome mental blocks, find freedom from anxiety, create an abundant life, and build the body and life that they deserve and desire. In this weekly podcast, we'll uncover the raw truth about mental health, nutrition, fitness, and beyond.
Jen:Let's get to it.
Kaitlin:Hi, friends. Welcome back to the Counter Culture Health podcast. Today, we are going to talk about infertility. Some of you may be experiencing and going through this now, so this could be a super helpful topic for you. We are going to cover what could contribute to it, how to navigate it, treatment approaches for it, and doctor Jen is going to share her personal experience, with her infertility journey.
Kaitlin:So, Jen, take it away. Yeah. Kind of guide us through your knowledge, experience, and how you navigated that in your life.
Jen:This is such an important topic, and it's one of those clubs you never wanna be in and you find yourself in. So I think it's really relevant, and it's hard to talk about for a lot of folks because it's, it just brings up so much. And you and I were talking beforehand, especially when you are a healthy person, you and part of your life would and part of your life would be easy breezy, and then it's not, and it really rocks your world. So just as for context, you know, I understand that this is a really sensitive topic, and you may or may not wanna listen to this right now if you're going through it, and that's okay. You can always come back to it when you're ready.
Jen:But, also, I encourage everyone to take a listen because because it is so prevalent, ultimately, you will probably have a loved one in your life going through it. Whether that's a family member, a friend, a coworker, a sibling, and then, you know, hopefully not, but yourself. So, it's great information just to keep in mind because this is it's more out there now but definitely wasn't so much when I was going through it. I didn't realize all the amazing resources that are available and all the knowledge that is out there until I really needed it. So I'm hopefully hoping that this helps some folks.
Jen:So, as a background, just to kind of frame this, infertility is going up. So, roughly, right now, stats say that 1 in 6 people globally, so around 17, 18%, are affected by infertility. Anecdotally, I'd say, within my social circles, I feel like it's closer to 30%, maybe even higher. It's going up every year, so it's really prevalent. And, US births decline in the US by 2% in 2023.
Jen:So, again, like, birth rates are going down and fertility is going up. So it's incredibly prevalent. And like you mentioned, there's so many things that are contributing. We don't really fully understand and know. There's personal factors at play.
Jen:So, yes, when you are trying to get pregnant as you get older, just statistically, it's a little bit harder to get pregnant. So there's that piece. Typically, what they, after 30, it starts to become more difficult. So in general, they say 35 is like this fertility shift or cliff, some people like to call it. I don't think that's very helpful.
Jen:I had my son at 35. It took us 6 years to get pregnant. I wanted to have a child sooner than that, but, you know, that's the way it ended up. And a lot of women are having kids older now, typically after the mid thirties because it's taking people longer to find a partner and settle down or get married. So it is happening later and definitely pushing it later just because of age and egg quality, egg quantity, all those things.
Jen:I also suspect because as we get older, that's longer amount of time that we've been exposed to endocrine disruptors and toxicity and even stress, and so those also wear on the body and impact reproduction as well. So that's definitely at play. And, again, a lot of us who are eighties nineties kids remember a lot of microwave food, a lot of plastic, a lot of processed lunches, just, like, a lot of toxicity and exposure growing up. I definitely was one of those kids. And, again, our parents did the best they could with what they knew.
Jen:Everyone was doing that. Right? Like, eating processed cereal for breakfast, microwaving your lunch, eating a Lunchable, eating a Snickers for snack, and going home, and eating Chips Ahoy for dessert. That's the only one of my classic childhood foods right right there. So I suspect that's a big piece of it too.
Jen:And then, also, obviously, toxicity in the environment, so increase in pollution and other things like that, and then just more toxicity in
Kaitlin:the lifestyle. In products, yeah, products that people use. Yeah. And that brings up, like, the term xenoestrogens. That's, a big term being used right now, mimicking estrogen, you know, and that that can have an impact on hormonal imbalances, reproductive issues.
Kaitlin:And like you mentioned before, that can come from foods, plastic that you're microwaving in or just using, on a daily basis, personal care, cosmetics, cosmetics. Yep. All of those things. Yeah.
Jen:Yep. And then to your point, so what happens is and it's different for everyone, and I'll context this with my infertility was unexplained. There's quote, unquote, unexplained infertility category, which is one of the highest categories. That's where I landed, so I will may never know for sure the why, and it could be multiple factors, I suspect. But, ultimately, my doctor didn't know the why, the root cause.
Jen:But when you have all those endocrine disruptors, plus maybe genetics and other things, You can have things like estrogen dominance, which is when your estrogen is imbalanced there and that can impact fertility. You could have PCOS, which impacts your fertility. You could have a thyroid dysfunction. Hypothyroidism is going up and very common, and that can impact your fertility and increase your risk of miscarriage. So there's all these pieces at play.
Jen:So that being said, looking back, I did end up working with the naturopath for a time, but I really wish I had known about that and done it way sooner. So now I encourage all my clients, especially females, even if they're single and not even thinking it about having kids, if they plan to, to get in with the naturopath if they're having any sort of reproductive anomaly. And this could be heavy period, you know, even migraines, lots of headaches, PCOS, delayed periods, missed periods, spotty, whatever. Anything that's off, I say you should look at that because when you do wanna get pregnant, that's a very stressful time to be fixing those things, and then time is of the essence. So if you can do that proactively, that would be key, and I wish I'd done that.
Jen:I shouldn't really know about naturopathic medicine. I didn't know about holistic medicine until I needed to know it, and I was going through that. And that's, is what I mentioned in an earlier episode was my gateway into holistic wellness and medicine was through my own experience of infertility and experiencing all of the the holes in Western medicine and how those Western doctors, again, doing the best they could with what they knew, you know, trying to do some fertility stuff with western doctors, they didn't really look at that stuff. They did really cursory looks, but they didn't really dig deep, and they weren't really trained in being able to treat those issues. So it is important to get with the naturopath, especially one that specializes in fertility, postpartum, prenatal care, who really understands the hormonal aspects of that.
Jen:It can get you on potentially medication. So if it's like a thyroid issue, you might need medication. But get your hormones balanced way before you're ready to get pregnant. Highly recommend that.
Kaitlin:I love that you brought up the point of even if you're not trying to get pregnant right now, or that's on your radar, still taking care of your hormones and your cycle because it's just such an important aspect of health in general. And, like, for my personal experience, you know, I went years without a period because of eating disorder, lifestyle. You know, in my conversation with my doctor was she asked me, are you trying to get pregnant? And I said, no. And she said, well, then it doesn't really matter.
Kaitlin:And that you know? And for me, I'm like, okay. Time for a new doctor. Because I knew that that is, like, the biggest sign of health is if you're having a regular cycle. And so it's it's not just a if I'm trying to get pregnant thing.
Kaitlin:It's it's a health thing. And so that is it's just so important to take care of your hormones, take care of your cycle even if you're not trying to get pregnant. So if that is a message your doctor is sending you, I would suggest looking elsewhere or asking questions or really pushing back, against that. And that kind of brings up the topic of birth control too and how that can contribute. You know, being on that for an extended period of time can lead to fertility issues too.
Kaitlin:So even if you're not trying right now, but you're going to down the road, probably looking at getting off of that and repairing your hormonal health now too.
Jen:Especially if the birth control was prescribed for a supposed fix for your hormonal issues, which is so common. Right? You go into a doctor. You have crazy PMS or cramps or irregular periods. Like, here's birth control to get you regular.
Jen:So it might mask all the symptoms, but then to your point, then maybe 5, 10 years down the road, you wanna get pregnant and you get off of that and, a, that could, you know, mess up your ovulations and your cycle, but, also, it could have been masking these hormonal issues that have now been brewing for 5, 10 years, which makes them a little bit harder and longer to treat. So to your point, like, it's the doctors are doing their best because that's how they're trained. So it's really a medical school systemic issue. We won't get into that today. But that being said, look for and there are some more holistic doctors, OB GYNs, people who care about the root cause or can at least point you in the right direction.
Jen:And, or, again, go to a naturopath, someone who is already trained like that, and look at the look at the root cause. Don't just go to birth control to mass hormonal symptoms because it's a very temporary fix.
Kaitlin:Yes. Yeah. And that was also, you know, suggested for me too of, like, okay. You don't have your cycle, so let's get on birth control to try to get you a cycle. Well, and then I started having symptoms.
Kaitlin:So then it's like, okay. Let's not take that last week where you let's not take that last week of pills where you would have your period. Just skip it so you don't have your period at all, so you don't have these symptoms. And it's like, that's not that's not the fix. There's something going on.
Kaitlin:There's, you know, underlying factors contributing to that. And, of course, like anything else, we want to get to the root instead of just masking it. That can make things worse down the road.
Jen:Yep. And I also don't wanna let guys off the hook. K? Because this is a 5050.
Kaitlin:Yep. Yep. True.
Jen:So things like sperm quality is going down as well over time. We see that actually in statistics. You can look that up and see pretty clearly sperm quality, sperm count has gone down dramatically, and that definitely impacts fertility. And even things like alcohol impact fertility, obviously, smoking, and even, like, cell phones. Like, they say if you have your cell phone in your pocket for guys, it'll decrease your sperm count even temporarily.
Jen:So, you know, it can kinda sound kinda crazy and feel crazy when you're in it because you're like, I'm gonna try to eliminate all the factors I can have control over. You start to feel a little loosey goosey because you're just throwing, you know, throwing everything at it. So, you know, yeah, like, we did those things. We made sure to cut out alcohol and eat whole foods diet, and we're on supplements, and, you know, making sure we weren't carrying cell phones around on our bodies. Like, those things do matter.
Jen:And like I told you before, like, that didn't necessarily fully move the needle as I hoped it would. It wasn't I wasn't able to get pregnant naturally despite all those things. But I also believe that had I not done those things, it would have been harder to get pregnant through IVF, and it would would not have had such a healthy pregnancy, which I did, thankfully. So those things are still important to try and do. Right?
Jen:So I did, like, supplements, like I said. I went to acupuncture, which there is some good research on acupuncture to help. It's wonderful just for stress relief, but also for hormonal balance. There's naturopathic medicine. You can even do, like, fertility massage, which I tried as well, like abdominal massage that they do for for women, healthy lifestyle, and then, of course, therapy, just getting psychotherapy to help with the trauma a bit all and the stress.
Jen:So for people, again, who haven't gone through it, it's almost like you're going through this chronic grieving process where every single month when you realize you're not pregnant, you go through a whole another cycle of grief and loss. And then you get hopeful again, right, because you're trying every month whether through fertility treatments or naturally. And then you realize you're not pregnant because your cycle comes and you have the same ups and downs and grief and loss. So it's a very long protracted grieving process and trauma that we go through as a couple and especially women because you're more attuned to your body. So know, you're the one experiencing that in a very tangible way.
Jen:So psychotherapy is really helpful and something I did when I was going through the process more at the end with IVF to help me just manage all the ups and downs and the roller coaster of the hope and the disappointment and the grieving and the celebration, all that. We need to have someone who can hold space for that. And oftentimes, our friends and family, as good meaning as they are, they have a hard time because it's really hard to understand unless you're in it and been through it. And they just care about you, wanna be there for you, but they sometimes may not know how to, or they might say the wrong things and unintentionally invalidate you. So having a therapist in your corner is really helpful.
Kaitlin:Yeah. So important to take care of the mental and emotional aspect of it too, not just the physical. But can you talk more about changes that like, what specific changes you've made to your diet during that time?
Jen:Yeah. So and I'll say too, this is not a prescriptive thing because everyone's different. So we, again, focused on cutting out alcohol, which was great just in general for your health. Right? So I don't miss it at all, and we still don't drink, and it's wonderful.
Jen:So we did that. And then just making sure you're not eating inflammatory foods. So I didn't go on a strict anti inflammatory diet. I kinda eat more of a paleo esque diet. Really focusing on whole foods.
Jen:It's been a little while, so I'm sure there were specific things. But, you know, like, making sure I was eating a lot of animal based protein, for example, getting sufficient nutrients that way, making sure I was working on stress management as well with, like, exercise and routine there. Obviously, sugar is part of inflammation, so limiting sugar as best as I could. I wasn't having caffeine at the time either, so both of us cut caffeine out, which is also can be helpful. And I think those were, like, the main things.
Jen:Again, just eating a whole foods diet and being really mindful about that, were the main things as far as nutrition and then a whole bunch of supplements to help with things like hormone balance and egg quality, etcetera. And, usually, a naturopath or an acupuncturist would give you a set of things to do for that.
Kaitlin:Do you remember what you took specifically
Jen:for something?
Kaitlin:Oh, gosh.
Jen:I had so many. Crazy to think about. I still take a lot, but, I definitely remember. So a big one to look up for women is coq10. That one is especially shown to help with egg quality, and you should be taking that way before you even get pregnant so it has time to really work on your egg quality.
Jen:And, of course, even, like, a prenatal vitamin, you should be taking that before you get pregnant. So I was taking that for months months beforehand. Well, years, really, because I was always trying to get pregnant. So prenatals, omega threes also help with inflammation, so good quality omega 3. I think those were, like, the core.
Jen:And then I circled through other ones for hormonal balance and, you know, all of those different things. Yeah. It's been a it's been a few years, so I don't recall, but I was on a good regimen.
Kaitlin:Yeah. It's something that I wanna bring up too is, like, carbohydrates are important for our hormonal health. And so looking at that, I know as women tend to have a tendency of restricting carbs, eating low carb, and that can really impact your hormonal health. So I would say too, you know, if you're trying to get pregnant or during that time, to increase to not restrict carbs, increase carb intake to, help out with that, Probably not the best time to be intermittent fasting and doing that while you're trying to get pregnant. So looking at, of course, like quality carbs too.
Kaitlin:You know, we don't want a bunch of sugar and processed foods, but good quality carbs, you know, making sure you're getting plenty of those to support your hormonal health.
Jen:Right. Right. And that's why I said too. I was paleo esque. I wasn't straight paleo because it is important to have carbs, and I I was not in that form.
Jen:Oh, and then, also, I already have some, sensitivities, but I also was not eating gluten or dairy. And that can also be sometimes prescribed during that time to help with inflammation and just cut out other things that could be contributing and making it harder to get pregnant. So it was more of a gluten free, dairy free diet and less so paleo, but then with emphasis on protein, fats, and and healthy carbs. That was, I think, helpful overall.
Kaitlin:Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. And then on the other end too, you know, individuals with PCOS tend to have blood sugar or issues with blood sugar and insulin. So it's very individualized because for some people it might be helpful that they look at their carbohydrate intake and maybe they need to decrease a little bit or looking at the quality of carbs or, you know, so that's that's pretty specific to individuals with PCOS who there is tends to be an insulin issue there too.
Kaitlin:So, of course, very individualized. Some people may need to, you know, get honest with themselves and look at the amount and quality that they're intaking while others may need to increase their intake to help out with the process.
Jen:Yep. So definitely work with someone. Again, it's tempting to want to just read books and self help your way through this. And I think, initially, we all do that, and that's fine. But as time progresses, and I would say, typically, they recommend if it's if you are past the age of so you have 30 or 35 and you've been trying for a year, you should well, I think it's actually 30 you've been trying for a year.
Jen:You should go in to get checked out, at least get preliminary blood work done. If you're past 35, I think it's been maybe only 6 months, then you should go in. I always say that, like, I will I don't really have regrets per se, but I what I what I would have done differently is to go in sooner. I would have gone in sooner to meet with a naturopath. I would have gone in sooner to get assessed by a legitimate, highly respected IVF doctor to get their assessment.
Jen:Because if you just go to your local OB GYN, you're they're gonna get some blood work done, and that's fine. It's a good place to start, but they just don't have that lens. If you go to fertility specialist, they may see things and catch things that the regular doctor won't. So, for example, I did some rounds of IUI, which is intrauterine insemination. That did not work out for us.
Jen:But, typically, that's done at a generic like, a fertility clinic, but often housed within a typical place like a Kaiser or Sharp. And that's fine. But, again, they aren't necessarily really trained in the holistic lens with fertility. So when I went to an IVF doctor, they looked at what they had done, their protocol for those IUIs, and said, well, that was not done correctly. So looking back, we don't know if it's like, would it have been successful if it had been done correctly with the protocol and the timing and the medication?
Jen:Maybe. So, again, it's such a hard time already. You're so emotional. It's a financially expensive time oftentimes if a lot of stuff's not covered by insurance. So, again, just go in sooner.
Jen:Don't be afraid. And that's my biggest regret was I had so much fear and let that dominate my decision making. Mhmm. And I was so resistant to conventional approaches. I just wanted this to work holistically.
Jen:I believed it could. And this is one of those stories where I think it helped tremendously, and I think you should do that because I think your IVF rate goes way up when you do, but you might need more than that. You might need more than the lifestyle changes to get pregnant. And in my case, I needed to do IVF, and thank God we got pregnant and have our beautiful son because of that. So it's really gonna be an integrated approach, I think, for most of us.
Jen:We need to do both the holistic, and we might need some conventional help. Just go get good conventional help. Go to the best specialist you can go to and afford. And there's wonderful doctors out there who are very ethical and values aligned, and I was very grateful to have found one like that. Again, I just wish I would have found him sooner because I just wasn't looking.
Jen:I was resistant. I was like, that's not for me. I don't wanna do that. I wanna deal with medication. I was afraid of being on medication, but, I found a doctor who's very conservative.
Jen:This is in San Diego where I'm not currently, but very conservative, listened to what I wanted, understood my body, my hormonal challenges, and did essentially what's called mini IVF, where they do the minimally necessary medications to get you the highest quality embryos rather than quantity. So I didn't have as many of the I didn't have side effects. Had a few, but not many. I was able to work, can be totally fine during that time. No one knew I was going through it.
Jen:And, we didn't have the ethical dilemma of having lots of embryos, for example, really just had our son, and that's what we wanted. We we were just, you know, happy just to have one healthy child, and, thankfully, that's what happened for us. So there's, yeah, there's there's lots of pathways. Just don't be afraid to explore them. For someone who
Kaitlin:might be afraid or doesn't really know what the IVF process looks like or all entails, can you give some, details on that? Like, what the process is actually like, what you had to go through? Yes.
Jen:I'll do my best to remember all the pieces. It may be incomplete. So just don't quote me on any of this. But so phase 1 is usually lab work. Right?
Jen:So they're gonna do labs for both you and your partner to check to see if there's any clear cut issues that they can address or might need to treat when it comes to things like your hormones, things like sperm quality and count, even things that there's exams sorry. There's certain I guess it's called an exam, but, like, even, like, there's an X-ray they do to check to see if your tubes are blocked. Because, obviously, if your tubes are blocked, certain you need IVF, like, you're not going to ovulate and you're not gonna be able to pregnant naturally or with IUI. So there's that. I also did something.
Jen:It's a special kind of ultrasound that allows them to see if there's anything like, polyps and fibroids within the uterus. So that's definitely helpful. And, again, the conventional doctor didn't even recommend that to me, but my regular my my IBS specialist did, and it was really helpful in telling because there's some things I had to address there. So, yeah, so lab work and then usual those kinds of, what is the word I'm looking for, tests. They're just tests, I guess.
Jen:Test to make sure there's nothing glaring that would get
Kaitlin:into the Imaging.
Jen:There you go. Imaging, X rays, tests to make sure there's nothing in the way. So if there's issues there, they're gonna treat that first if they can. Right? And then the IVF process, you have the retrieval phase, and so that's when you're on medication to help your follicles grow.
Jen:And then you're monitored during that time. I can't give you again remember the exact time frame, but there's a time frame you're monitored while your follicles are growing to check to see the size so that they know when to do the retrieval, right, which is when they would extract those follicles. And when you're in traditional IVF, you're trying to get a lot of follicles. There's more about a quantity push on traditional IVF. And so to get that many follicles eggs out of your follicles, you have to go under general anesthesia typically to get them removed.
Jen:And then from there, you get your eggs retrieved, and then they're going to typically fertilize those eggs with sperm. And so then you would do that and see how many of those embryos over the course of typically, I think it's, like, 5 to 7 days mature within the lab. And then from there, if you have any embryos that survive that process because then, naturally, your body often, your embryo does not survive the 5 days and just gets flushed out with your period. You would never know you're pregnant. And so, really, only genetically healthy embryos usually make it to day 57.
Jen:And then the typical practice now is you get those embryos genetically tested to see if they're genetically healthy. And then they can tell you if they're healthy or not healthy. And then, of course, healthy embryos have a higher chance of actually implanting and becoming a full term, baby. So, a lot of technicalities there. And then, basically, once you have that healthy embryo, you often will have to freeze that until you're ready to do a transfer.
Jen:And that transfer process is when you would go through another round of different types of medications to prepare your uterus lining to be ready to receive that embryo and, basically, almost trick your body to think it's about ready to be pregnant or pregnant, and then they will transfer the embryo back into your uterus at that time. And then within a week or 2, you can have a blood test to tell you whether or not you're pregnant. And then from there, get the typical ultrasounds to monitor the pregnancy.
Kaitlin:So it's it's
Jen:a lot. And and the and that's if everything goes well. So what typically happens is there might be multiple retrievals that may need to happen if you're not getting any embryos or any healthy embryos that are surviving that process or testing as healthy. So I have friends who had to do multiple retrievals, for example, which is the hardest part because those are the meds that are the heaviest duty, and that's the most emotionally taxing part, I think, in in what from what I remember. And then you have the transfer phase.
Jen:Right? And that might take have friends who needed to do 1 or 2 or 3 transfers before it took where the embryo was planted and was able to continue to develop to become a healthy healthy pregnancy. So some people need multiple retrievals. Some need multiple transfers to get to one healthy pregnancy. So I did 2 retrievals and one transfer.
Jen:And we're very lucky that our first transfer, we have our son, who is adorable, and we adore him and felt so blessed that that worked out that way. But for many people, it takes multiple times. So all of for us, the whole process was less than a year. I think it was actually all within less than 6 to 7 months, start to finish. But for some, it could take a couple years depending on how many retrievals you're doing and how much rest your body might need in between because of the medication and side effects and things like that.
Jen:I had a friend who changed doctors who had a really bad experience with the 1st round, who didn't, again, understand her body and gave her too many hormones and didn't give her wasn't allowing her body to develop healthy eggs. And so then she switched to actually the doctor I went to and, now has her own healthy baby. Amazing. I have 2 friends who have healthy babies from that same doctor.
Kaitlin:What an amazing process. Yeah. And that brings me to how did you go about research and finding a doctor and finding a good fit and, you know, how can people do the research process?
Jen:I think a lot of it it's like a combination of asking other professionals in the space. So when you work with, like, a fertility naturopath or fertility acupuncturist who I'd I had worked with 1 for years, they know all the doctors in the area, and they know all the patient stories of those doctor experiences. So getting in touch with one of them is so helpful and having a trust relationship with them because they know your body pretty well too. After working with you closely, you can say, I think so and so doctor might be a good fit. Here's the the pros and cons.
Jen:Other things you might need to consider are cost, although I'd encourage you to focus on the best doctor fit and not cost even though it is really expensive. But more and more insurances are covering IVF, but they're usually only covering certain IVF doctors. And, of course, my doctor was not covered by my insurance. Of course. That's how it works.
Kaitlin:Of course.
Jen:Yes. And then looking at even just online, looking at reviews or going into even some of his Facebook groups can be helpful just to get people's experiences and, ultimately, going in and doing a consultation. So that's what I did. I did a consultation and had already preresearched this doctor based off of my acupuncturist, experience with them, what I read online about their process and the protocols. And I felt like it was the right fit for me and my body, and they had great, you know, just bedside manner and just was so respectful of me as being like a collaborator in the process rather than treating me like a patient.
Jen:And so that's who we went with, and, I'm so glad that we did.
Kaitlin:Amazing. It truly is incredible that we have that option today and are able to do that.
Jen:Yeah. And I'll say too just as a sidebar, people have, I know, mixed feelings about IVF, especially I think in, like, the Christian community, and I respect that because I get that there's a lot of nuance there, and there are ways where it could be ethically mishandled. My take was always that, you know, while, yes, we did IVF, the IVF you don't you don't have as much control as you think you do. People think about IVF as being like this guaranteed way of having a child the way you want to. But the reality is when you go through it, there are so many variables that are out of your control and the doctor's control.
Jen:You cannot fully control the egg quality or what eggs are produced during that time, which is ultimately what gives you your baby. You can't control what sperm fertilize which one all the time either or no you know? So all these factors, it's like the doctor helps it along, but, ultimately, God's still in control. That's how I like to think about that. Especially if you're using Ethiclean, you're not going for quantity, you're not trying to be selective about gender, those kinds of things.
Jen:I don't really support that. I think it's about getting a healthy baby, and IVF can help that process. And you can do it ethically, I think, and within your moral framework. Mhmm.
Kaitlin:Yeah. That's, like, a really good point. And hopefully give some people some ease or peace of mind if that's something that they've been struggling with too. So you mentioned, counseling and therapy earlier, something that that is very beneficial and helpful. Do you personally work with people through that process in your, coaching and therapy business and provide that support?
Jen:I do. Yeah. I it's not my main specialty per se, but it's definitely something I love working with and I'm open to and love supporting women through the journey because I know how hard it is. I think it's really helpful when you work with someone who's been through it.
Kaitlin:Mhmm. Yes. I
Jen:love doing that and helping break some of those myths down and help people with the fear and help understand the process and just be a champion for them and encourage them throughout that journey. And, also, for people to know, there's a lot of support groups out there. So, again, you can look online, and there's, something called the Postpartum Health Alliance. I know there's one chapter in San Diego. That is an amazing resource that is basically this alliance of therapists, providers, integrated folks, psychiatrists, doulas, everyone.
Jen:And there's, like, a listserv, so providers will share referrals and also ask for referrals. So there I have used that to have, to find, for sample, fertility support groups for my clients who are going through that. There's integrative against psychiatrists. So if you're on medication and acupuncturists, naturopaths, and therapists who specialize in the And then, of course, the acupuncturists, naturopaths, and therapists who specialize in that and even things like loss, like I went through miscarriage. So it's therapists that can help you through miscarriage and infant loss or stillbirth as well, if that's part of your story.
Jen:So there's a lot of amazing resources out there. Again, postpartum health alliance, Google online, search for local therapists. There's a lot of fertility specialists now
Kaitlin:out there
Jen:in the community.
Kaitlin:Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Don't go through the journey alone.
Jen:Right. Right. Exactly.
Kaitlin:Well, thanks for joining us today. We know this was a tough topic, but hopefully a helpful topic. You can always reach out to Jen if you are going through this and have questions on that, and then stay tuned and join us next week for our conversation on postpartum.
Jen:Thanks for joining us on the counterculture health podcast. To support this show, please rate, review, and share with your friends and family. If you wanna be reminded of new episodes, click the subscribe button on your preferred podcast player. You can find me, Jen, at awaken.holistic.health
Kaitlin:and at awakening holistic health dot com. And me, Caitlin at Caitlin Reed wellness and Caitlin Reed wellness.com.
Jen:The content of the
Kaitlin:show show is for educational and informational purposes only. As always, talk to your doctor and health team. See you next time.