Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A daily podcast delving into the biggest stories of the day throughout the sports betting and igaming sector.
Charlie Horner (00:01.367)
Hello and welcome back to iGaming Daily. Over the next couple of days we're going to do a deep dive into the... Okay, sorry, I'll start again.
Martyn Elliott (00:05.544)
we're going to do a deep
Charlie Horner (00:13.111)
Hello and welcome back to iGaming Daily. Over the next couple of days, we're going to do a deep dive into illegal gambling and the chokehold that it has over social media, young people and the football industry. In the midst of regulatory and tax pressures, regulated operators are more vocal in wanting authorities to take action against black market operators. And in part one today...
We're going to talk about the role of influencers and the so-called Manosphere in attracting young people to black market operators that lack the protections, KYC and AML measures of the regulated sector. And we're inspired by a piece of research conducted by Alex Wood into the black market during Cheltenham Festival last month. And you can read all about that on SBC News. So how big of an issue are influencers in promoting the black market?
Welcome back to iGaming Daily, supported by OptiMove, the creator of positionless marketing and the creator of... Sorry, I've not done this in a while. Welcome back to iGaming Daily, supported by OptiMove, the creator of positionless marketing and the number one player engagement solution for sports betting and iGaming operators. I'm Charlie Horner and today I'm joined by SBC's media director, Martin Elliott and...
at SBC Media's editor-at-large, Ted Manmure. Martin, thanks for joining me today. How are you? Yeah, very well. We're really looking forward to Looking forward to getting stuck into it. Yeah, the first time we've actually dedicated two episodes to a single topic. So we'll see how we get on. Ted, how are you?
Martyn Elliott (01:41.806)
Thanks for joining today. Yeah, very well. So really interesting topic this so looking looking forward to getting stuck into it.
Ted Menmuir (01:58.61)
Very well. Looking forward to the Easter break. But glad to be recording this. I mean, this is a very relevant subject matter.
Charlie Horner (02:07.179)
Yeah, set.
Ted Menmuir (02:09.98)
Fucked. Yes, I get it. Jeez. Yeah. Okay, okay.
Charlie Horner (02:11.445)
We'll cut it, don't worry, we'll cut that bit. Okay.
Charlie Horner (02:21.111)
Brilliant. Well, glad to have you on Ted. How about we kick things off, Martin? I referenced this piece of research that was conducted by Alex Wood. Could you just give us an overview of what that research is, who put it together, what does it allege, who funded it? Yeah, sorry. I believe this was funded by Flaunta. It was put together by a world-renowned...
Martyn Elliott (02:31.374)
Could you just give us an overview of what that research is? Who put it together? What does it allege? Who funded it? Yeah, so I believe this was funded by Flutter and it's been put together by a rather interesting character by the name of...
Charlie Horner (02:50.903)
or
Martyn Elliott (02:55.81)
escapes me by the name of Alex Wood. Alex is.
Charlie Horner (02:55.927)
Alex is
Martyn Elliott (03:02.382)
How should I put this? He has a bit of a checkered past and he's escaped that and he's now a real expert in combating fraud in all sorts of situations. He's taken on subjects in banking and around sort of cross-border money laundering and so on. And more recently, he has turned his attention to black market gambling and
Charlie Horner (03:02.519)
he has a bit of a check of past and he's escaped that and he's now a real expert in combating fraud in all sorts of situations he's taken on subjects in banking and sort of cross-border money laundering and so on and more recently he has turned his attention to black market gambling
This study during the Chatham, he looked at really the link between social media, how you get onto black market bookmakers, how they interact with customers and so on. Yeah, it's as easy as you can imagine to play on these black market bookmakers. And also the stats did that for the right kind of...
Martyn Elliott (03:31.778)
This study he did during Cheltenham, he looked at really the link between social media, how you get onto black market bookmakers, how they interact with customers and so on. yeah, it's every bit as easy as you could imagine to play on these black market bookmakers. He also assessed, they have the right kind of...
player protection measures in place that you get with a regulated operator? And the answer was very much, no, they don't. And he also tested out their somewhat laughable KYC protections. He was able to register accounts in the name of the several time grand national winner, Red Rum. I mean, I've never been asked when signing up for a betting account, am I a horse?
Charlie Horner (03:59.767)
protection measures in place that you get with a regulator operator and the answer was very much no they don't. He also tested out some of the KY's protections. He was able to register accounts in the name of the several times grand national winner Red Rump.
I mean, I've never been asked for a better account, I a horse? But you'd have thought it was a basic thing they could have checked really. But you know, perhaps more troublingly, I was to find a name of trainers, jockeys, other people who would be in a position to influence the outcome of races. And that just passed in, passed by, checks very easily.
Martyn Elliott (04:29.144)
But you'd have thought it was a basic thing they could have checked, really. But he also, perhaps more troublingly, was able to sign up in the name of trainers, jockeys, other people who would be in position to influence the outcome of races. And that just passed by their checks very easily. So there's a...
Charlie Horner (04:53.655)
You know, there's multiple issues to look at here in terms of integrity and more seriously, the complete lack of player protection of these operators. Yeah, I think that's one of the main takeaways I took from this was the flagrant disregard for any sort of KYC measures. Yeah, putting himself, you know, as trainers, as jockeys and potentially putting
Martyn Elliott (04:55.53)
multiple issues to look at here both in terms of that integrity and probably more seriously the complete lack of player protection at these operators. I think that's one of the main takeaways I took from this was the flagrant disregard for any
Charlie Horner (05:23.379)
of illegitimate bets or manipulatable bets on. Ted, what were your takeaways from this report?
Ted Menmuir (05:32.228)
Again, I'm actually, let me begin again. Charlie, I'm not surprised by anything that has been kind of pointed out in this report. And I think that, yes, it's great at, know, great headline, great at getting clicks. However, I think for anyone who's...
been involved in iGaming marketing who knows kind of the the exposures and liabilities that are out there at the moment there is nothing of surprise and all you got to do is just go on a social media platform or write up you know play non-game gamestop casinos on google there are i think what this asks is much more about the point of exposure of the industry
in its battle against the black market than anything else and how there is kind of no enforcement or regulatory action against bad actors at the moment. It just seems like there is one rule for the regulated sector that must be applied indefinitely versus completely kind of a free will for black market actors. And it seems like we're heading to a point of inflection or are we even getting there?
Charlie Horner (06:46.647)
Yeah, let's talk about this a bit more because you talk about the way that people are being enticed to these platforms. An interesting part of this report was influences and this so-called Manosphere. It's kind of all the rage after Louis Theroux's documentary and we're all talking about the Manosphere. Now, I don't know whether either of you seen the documentary, but there are several influences caught up in it. They're streaming on Kik, they're promoting Black Market.
Martyn Elliott (06:47.672)
talk about this a bit more because you talk about the way that people are being enticed to these platforms.
Ted Menmuir (06:52.806)
Mm-hmm.
Ted Menmuir (07:02.352)
Yeah.
Charlie Horner (07:16.279)
gambling platforms, how have these black market platforms become intertwined with this manosphere? And are there any other examples that we can think of?
Ted Menmuir (07:17.317)
Yeah.
Ted Menmuir (07:29.468)
So on the point of the Manosphere, and I think you're gonna step back and look, says that overlap is not accidental.
And a lot of the content in, I hate to use this word, of ecosystem is built around kind of the same promises. This is nothing new. Gambling is fast money. There's a masculine status, risk taking. And you can kind of even with these kind of influences say that it's kind of anti-establishment and there's a swagger to it. And you are kind of beating the hierarchy.
You know, there's always been in psychology to marketing. This is the what is very kind of brazen and also it knows who the target audience is and what the messages are. And also in terms of going with these manuscript kind of influences is that there is a natural commercial fit there. These guys will promote anything to their audiences. It's not just illegal gambling. It could be, you know, false, false drugs.
I've seen them promote get-quick-rich schemes, cryptocurrencies, so bad casinos would fall in that remit. I didn't think it was a great document by Louis Theroux, but it actually did highlight the atmosphere and its engagement with young and vulnerable men, definitely people that should be protected.
And also, it's kind of the adjacent platforms to this. We're not just talking about social media, but we're talking about other kind of legal platforms such as Kik and just how much of a pull these platforms can have. And at one point, if these guys want to promote an illegal casino or get rich quick scheme, they'll just do it. They've got the audience to engage with.
Charlie Horner (09:26.081)
think that's a key part of this is that it seems like these influencers have the attitude of, don't care about the rules and we'll just do it anyway. And that's slightly different to what we've seen from other advertisers. Martin, do you have any reflections on that documentary and how it portrays the black market? Yeah, a little bit. I agree with Ted. As a documentary, didn't work particularly for me. As an entertainment show, was...
Martyn Elliott (09:26.222)
think that's a key part of this is that it seems like these influences have the attitude of we don't care about the rules and we'll just do it anyway. And that's slightly different to what we've seen from other advertisers. Martin, do you have any reflections on that documentary and how it portrays the black market? Yeah, a little bit. I agree with Ted. As a documentary, didn't work particularly for me. As an entertainment show, was...
have to laugh at bits of it and bits of it were actually quite troubling. I mean, he conflated two things really, didn't he? The guys in the US who had such appalling attitudes towards women that the Taliban would have been offended by them. And then these kind of these useful idiots who are actually the guys who are promoting the cryptocurrency schemes, the black market bookmakers and so on.
Charlie Horner (09:56.081)
laugh at bits of it and bits of it were actually quite troubling. I mean he conflated two things really, didn't he? The guys in the US who have such a poor attitude towards women that the Taliban would have been offended by them and then these kind of these useful idiots who are actually the guys who operated the crypto currency schemes, the black market bookmakers and so on and they're all
Ted Menmuir (10:12.452)
You
Martyn Elliott (10:25.144)
They're all, they're like this idea that a bit rebel or a bit outside the system. I mean, if I was 24 years old, I could afford to lease a Lamborghini and rent a nice holiday home in Marbella. I'd probably be a bit of a Burke like those guys were as well. And I would probably be taking advantage of this. You know, there's an interesting bit in this report talking about as well, but it goes on.
Charlie Horner (10:25.975)
They're likely to be a bit rebel, a bit outside the system. mean, if I was 24 years old, I could afford to lease a Lamborghini out and rent an Antolio home in Marbella. I'd probably be a bit of a berth like those guys were as well. And I would probably take advantage of this. There's an interesting bit in this report talking now as well that goes on. There's a lot of promotion that is actually saying...
Ted Menmuir (10:41.522)
Hmm
Martyn Elliott (10:52.138)
There's a lot of promotion that is actually saying it's much better to gamble outside the regulated market. The games are better. You can win more money. There's even one bit, think, which says, it's safer if you gamble with the unlicensed operator. So it's all related. This culture, which when you reach my age, you can
Charlie Horner (10:56.553)
It's much better to gamble outside the regulated market. The games are better. You can win more money. There's even one way out which says, it's safer if you gamble with the unlicensed operator. So it's all related. This culture, when you reach my age, can, it's baffling, really, the number of people who want to get success outside the system.
Martyn Elliott (11:20.43)
It's baffling, really, the number of people who want to get success outside the system and being this rebel is more important than to actually succeed in what I would call a proper old fashioned way. perhaps this is just me being an old fuddy duddy at this point in time. But I do think there has been a bit of a change in society brought about
Charlie Horner (11:26.359)
being this rebel is more important than to actually succeed in what I would call proper old-fashioned play. Perhaps this is just me being an old fuddy-duddy at this point in time. But I do think there has been bit of a change in society, thought about social media, not across all society, and want to say all young people are dreadful.
Martyn Elliott (11:49.014)
social media, not across all society. And I want to say all young people are dreadful, but there's a significant minority of them have bought into this mindset. And that allows bad actors in business to take advantage of the the influencers who then help those bad actors to take advantage of their audiences. It's a worrying trend.
Charlie Horner (11:55.767)
There's a significant minority of them that bought into this matter and that allows bad actors in business to take advantage of the influence of the event, help those bad actors to take advantage of their audiences. It's a worrying situation. Well, is it a case of all young people being dreadful or some young people being dreadful? Or is it that
Martyn Elliott (12:17.898)
Is it a case of all young people being dreadful or some young people being dreadful? Or is it that...
Charlie Horner (12:26.153)
Is it that social media companies are propelling this type of content and actually pushing it towards these young people and they are impressionable and vulnerable to these black market operators? do we need to put more pressure on social media companies, big tech, to stop them from advertising or pushing this content? And more importantly, what can governments actually do to enforce that change? Because it seems quite...
tough to do that in such a global online scale.
Ted Menmuir (13:00.082)
It's too easy to blame the influencers and the points of access and the engagement that I can have with any type of illegal advertiser. It's too open. And we've been talking about this for, I think, now five years. Just, okay, yes, your methods, your Googles, they're putting kind of more safeguards on targeting, but those parameters can be...
can be breached. We've seen that in the markets of Holland and Sweden. Like yes, targeting works to certain extent, but if you just don't promote yourself as an online casino or you change your content around, you know, you second, you can, you can bypass these checks and still target vulnerable users. The other thing is that I, I think that overall there hasn't been
you know, engage discussions by any regulator. I think the only one that's starting to do that is Italy in how it kind of builds its online gambling shield and integrates marketing into that. But there hasn't been an all round debate with stakeholders about what are kind of definitive protections for
protecting not only youth audiences but vulnerable audiences from relapsing and playing with illegal casinos and the danger of those kind of illegal casinos that they're not in the system that they don't have to offer any protections right and then they don't care you know if you lose every single one of your pennies it's the same as these guys running on bank scams right that's what they're there for they're there to kind of clean out the bank and i think like the regulators
the watchdogs, even the trade bodies and gambling have to get that right. That is the biggest danger here. These guys are ruthless and they're going to take it to the cleaners.
Charlie Horner (14:50.983)
If you look at some of the screenshots of the customer support chats in that report, it's quite interesting. It does show that flagrant lack of care. Martin, just before we go to a break, anything to add?
Ted Menmuir (15:02.128)
Mm-hmm.
Martyn Elliott (15:05.326)
into that? I think the model of social media makes it almost impossible to regulate for the government. They're self-service adverts. And a lot of the influencers aren't even using advertisers. They're ignoring the rules that say this is a paid promotion and so on. It's extremely difficult to
Charlie Horner (15:09.185)
think the model of social media is almost impossible.
self-service efforts.
A lot of the influencers aren't even using advertisers, they're ignoring the rules that say this is a paid provision and so on. It's extremely difficult to actually combat that for the government. need buy-in from Meta, Meta in particular, but X as well and some of the other more obscure platforms.
Martyn Elliott (15:34.146)
to actually combat that for the government. need buy-in from Meta, Meta in particular, but X as well, and some of the other more obscure platforms. And what's the incentive for those tech companies to do it? You see various sums around, but...
Charlie Horner (15:51.089)
And what's the incentive for those tech companies to do it? You see various, various problems around it, but it is believed Meta makes billions of dollars a year from advertising illegal and fraudulent products. Gamblin's only one part of that league, many more things going out through Meta's platforms which shouldn't be.
Martyn Elliott (16:02.314)
It is believed Metta makes billions of dollars a year from advertising illegal and fraudulent products. Gambling is only one part of that. are many more things going out there through Metta's platforms, which shouldn't be. How do governments go to those platforms and say, how about you report to shareholders next year that your revenue has gone down?
Ted Menmuir (16:17.863)
Mm-hmm.
Charlie Horner (16:20.631)
How do how the government goes those platforms and say How about the shareholders next year that your revenues gone down for by ten billion dollars? Hey We've done the right thing Investors don't think like that. Unfortunately, so I think we we perhaps need some other tactics Yes, we need more pressure on the social media platforms, but
Martyn Elliott (16:32.077)
for by $10 billion, but hey, we've done the right thing. Investors don't think like that, unfortunately. So I think we perhaps need some other tactics. Yes, we need more pressure on the social media platforms, but we need a bit more imaginative thinking in how we take on this problem, I think. And perhaps just joined up thinking as well.
Charlie Horner (16:50.657)
we need a bit more imaginative thinking how we take on this problem. And perhaps just joined up thinking as well, but that takes a lot of buying, which is difficult to gather. Ted Martin will take a quick break and we'll come back and we'll continue this discussion.
Martyn Elliott (17:00.078)
takes a lot of time, which is difficult to gather.
Charlie Horner (17:09.759)
Welcome back to iGaming Daily. This whole influencer debate is really interesting because it is the fashionable topic of the moment. It has been for a number of years, but in my mind, influencers are just an evolution of or an extension of the traditional affiliate sector really. we know that, Ted, you referenced it at the start. You only have to Google.
non-gamstop casinos to find that there are plenty of affiliate sites using nefarious techniques to promote illegal gambling all around the world and make lots of money in the process. Do you see a difference between those affiliate networks and influencers or is it just one part or two separate parts of the same ecosystem?
Ted Menmuir (17:59.526)
Yeah, I believe that there is kind of that connection of paid and paid for reward advertising, referencing casinos and then taking a bit of ref share and how the kind of that model is structured. where I think that influences.
are more damaging is that the content that they serve out, know, if they are kind of playing on illegal sites, the ways that they kind of like push out these scams, we've seen them being kind of on the illegal streams where they they pretending to win money. They're referencing like the worst, you know, casinos with like no ID checks. And again, this is
I think ever since this documentary and the way some of the media reports on this story, it seems like this happened five days ago and it's not true. We've been talking about this for three years now about illegal streams, about needing them to shut down and nothing has been done and the system's still open and I think these wounds are just coming up and they're just being exposed now.
But again, going back to what Martin was saying, it's just like, how do you even begin to tackle this if no one, you know, if none of these big platforms want to come forward and say, well, let's start cleaning things up.
Charlie Horner (19:27.989)
Yeah, I agree. think if there was any criticism of that documentary, was that it's three or four years too late. And it just goes to show that, this is not a new issue. And Martin, what do you think about the difference between traditional affiliates and these influencers? Well, I think the...
Martyn Elliott (19:28.76)
I agree, think if there was any criticism of that documentary.
Ted Menmuir (19:35.164)
Mm-hmm.
Martyn Elliott (19:42.114)
What do you think about the difference between traditional and these influences? Well, think the traditional affiliate model requires intent from the user. They are generally looking for a casino or a sports book to play at, and they're looking for the best one, the bonus, whatever that is. The affiliates are actually pushing gambling and pushing
Charlie Horner (19:51.393)
traditional affiliate.
intent for the user. They generally looking for a casino or sports book to play at and they're looking for the best one, whatever that is. The affiliates are actually pushing gambling and pushing gambling at least in places onto their young audiences who perhaps weren't thinking about those products previously. there's a big difference between the two models really.
Martyn Elliott (20:10.424)
gambling at the least safe places onto their young audiences who perhaps weren't thinking about those products previously. So there's a big difference between the two models really. However, there are some things going on in the affiliate sector at the moment that are quite uncomfortable as well. this is not a new thing, but the use of expired domains
Charlie Horner (20:24.375)
However, there are some things going on in the affiliate sector at the moment that are quite uncomfortable as well. And this is not a new thing, but the use of expired domains to run the kind of type promotions on, and it's not just the UK market, it happens in other places. was one in the world, somebody hijacked the...
Martyn Elliott (20:39.554)
to run sort of non-gamstop type promotions on. It's not just the UK market. Happens in other places. There was one in Norway recently. Somebody had hijacked the NXPyde domain for a children's cancer charity to promote illegal casinos on. There are various stories about political parties that have either merged or just shut up shop.
Charlie Horner (20:52.563)
and expired the children's cancer charity to promote illegal exchange results. There were various political parties that have either merged or just shut up shop, there was also a quite modern pub in Amery, Oxfordshire, which...
Martyn Elliott (21:07.662)
who've had their websites hijacked. There's also a quite well-known pub in Bambury in Oxfordshire, which mistakenly let its domain expire. And that's now really quite apparently high-performing affiliate website for illegal gambling. So there we go. There are dangers. There are bad actors in that more traditional affiliate sector as well.
Charlie Horner (21:18.411)
mistake in the latest domain expire. That's not really quite apparently high performing affiliate website for illegal countries. There are other actors in the more traditional affiliate sector as well. But again, those people, that still requires some user intent to go and find them. And that's where the big divide in the light is.
Martyn Elliott (21:36.28)
But again, those people, that still requires some user intent to go and find them. And that's where the big dividing line is on a moral level. mean, at legal level, illegal is illegal, right? And that's the mindset I think we need to have a bit for it.
Charlie Horner (21:48.5)
I mean, illegal is illegal. That's the mindset that we need to have better for it. Ted, anything to add onto that one?
Martyn Elliott (21:58.048)
anything to add onto that one.
Ted Menmuir (22:01.586)
No, I think we caught most of it. mean, the other thing is just that model of compensation. You know, if I refer to you traffic, I get rewarded on their loss. And I think that even if you kind of broaden that field to influences and the traffic they generate, it's such a kind of commercial pool for unscrupulous actors to just take on board and make a lot of money. And it's there's
Again, this is why we kind of keep on pointing out to you need a conversation of all actors and you need to look at all elements of marketing in this subject matter.
Charlie Horner (22:42.887)
And those issues are only exacerbated if there are rev share deals involved as well. That's a whole other issue. We're running out of time, but we'll just end it on a nice simple question. What needs to be done to ensure that the black market battle is won? And until then, do you think that essentially highly regulated markets like the UK, like the Netherlands, like Germany are destined just to be undermined by?
Ted Menmuir (22:48.515)
Yeah.
Charlie Horner (23:12.087)
the black market and a nice simple question to leave it on Martin, what do you think? The second part is easy. Yes, the regulated markets will be demanded until we come up with a solution for the black market. I have two suggestions. Whether you've heard them, you will realise why I work in journalism and I'm not in charge of law enforcement anywhere. The first is...
Martyn Elliott (23:18.166)
Well, the second part is easy. Yes, the regulated markets will be undermined until we come up with a solution for the black market. I have two suggestions. And when you've heard them, you will realize why I work in journalism and I'm not in charge of law enforcement anywhere. The first is we need some more imaginative thinking, right? To put it in British political terms.
Charlie Horner (23:41.439)
thinking. To put it in British political terms, the approach so far is to pierce boundaries very slow, it's sort of considered, it's a bit like creativity. I a bit more dominant commons in this, and that's the only time in my life I'd like him to say that. But if he was in charge, he'd be saying, well, that 26 million grams are just going to the gambling commission.
Martyn Elliott (23:45.794)
The approach so far is too kia stama. It's very slow. It's sort of considered a bit dull, lacks creativity. Need a bit more dominant Cummings in this. And that's the only time in my life I'm likely to say that. But if he was in charge, he'd be saying, well, that 26 million pounds we've just given to the gambling commission, what we're going to do is hire an army of hackers to start taking out these guys and disrupting their operations and things. So perhaps we need to be
Charlie Horner (24:06.455)
What we're going to do is hire an army of hackers to start taking out these guys and disrupting their, their operations and things. So perhaps we need to be that aggressive on that side of things because in the online world, unfortunately, it's quite easy to ignore the law a lot of time. So perhaps we have to slightly illegal way to get on top as well. And the other one is, there's a lesson from another big,
Martyn Elliott (24:15.586)
that aggressive on that side of things because in the online world, unfortunately, it's quite easy to ignore the law a lot of the time. So perhaps we act in a slightly illegal way to get on top as well. And the other point is there's a lesson from another big issue with organized crime, which is the war on drugs. What we found in the war on drugs is that it's been possible to
Charlie Horner (24:35.753)
issue of organized crime, is the war on drugs. You can, what the fund in the war on drugs is that it's been possible to disrupt the supply chain and disrupt operations and gangs, but then they're just replaced by other gangs and so on. And in this, in our industry, it's a lot easier to set up an illegal casino, I imagine than it is to arrange a trafficking route for heroin from Afghanistan.
Martyn Elliott (24:46.562)
disrupt the supply chain and disrupt operations and gangs, but then they're just replaced by other gangs and so on. And in this, in our industry, it's a lot easier to set up an illegal casino, I imagine, than it is to arrange a trafficking route for heroin from Afghanistan, to the best of my knowledge anyway. So what we need to do is also focus on killing demand for these things.
Ted Menmuir (24:59.611)
Mm-hmm.
Charlie Horner (25:05.334)
to the best of my knowledge anyway. So what you need to do is also focus on killing demand for these things. So it's a big education campaign. It might be a bit project feel. Ask people where they think their profit, where the money they lose at these casinos is actually gonna go. Because if it is, to the worst, organized crime gangs. And in some cases it is. In some cases these illegal operators are, they've got a long term plan which will eventually.
Martyn Elliott (25:12.046)
So it's a big education campaign. It might be a bit of project fear. Ask people where they think their profit, where the money they lose at these casinos is actually going to go. Because if it is, so the worst organized crime gangs. And in some cases it is. In some cases these illegal operators are, they've got a long term plan which will eventually see them applying for licenses, I think in some cases and coming into the regulated market.
Charlie Horner (25:35.081)
see them apply for licenses, think in some cases, and come into the regulated market, looking for an IPO, but in the majority of cases, this is a straightforward cash grant from criminals. just make that case to people, make them aware of what they're doing by applying these unlicensed casinos, and what the consequences might be for them. Would that be a thing? No, of course not, but I think it might.
Martyn Elliott (25:39.906)
looking for an IPO, but in the majority of cases, this is a straightforward cash grab from criminals. just, yeah, make that case to people, make them aware of what they're doing when they're playing these unlicensed casinos and what the consequences might be for them. Will it end? Would that end everything? No, of course not. But I think it might make a small dent in it.
Charlie Horner (26:03.787)
make a small dance in it.
Ted Menmuir (26:08.882)
It's far too hard, I just prefer to blame the kids. Look, my first port of call.
Charlie Horner (26:12.824)
Hehehehehe
Ted Menmuir (26:20.681)
speak to your regulated licenses they are on the market every day they are using every channel they can to acquire product players properly and they know when these channels are being breached we know so many of who so many of the bad actors are and that's where it starts it just starts with just saying look these guys are clearly out of step these guys are not enforcing the laws
And this is where you kind of start to build like your real kind of lists of who are, you know, who the bad guys are, who to go after and who to start kind of building enforcement against. That's what I'd tell the regulator now.
Charlie Horner (27:04.919)
Well, if I had to guess which route the authorities would go down, think Ted, we'd more likely to go down your route of consultation rather than a group of vigilante computer geeks and sort of importing heroin from Afghanistan. But who knows, who knows? But for now, Martin, Ted, thanks ever so much for joining me.
Martyn Elliott (27:17.902)
vigilante computer geeks and yeah, so importing heroin from Afghanistan But who knows who knows? Yeah, but for now Martin Ted, thanks ever so much for joining me and Thanks to optimu
Charlie Horner (27:31.831)
Thanks to Optimu for supporting the show and thanks to the audience for listening to today's episode of iGaming Daily and join us tomorrow for part two of this deep dive into the black market.