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We educate investors and potential investors on the in's and out's of investing in rental property. We focus on residential and multifamily investing, but include commerical, storage, mobile home parks, and more. We interview industry experts on tax strategies, property management, vendor selection, syndications, capex, and more.
Hey, investors. Welcome to the retire on rentals podcast. I'm your host, Nicholas Cook. And in this show, we explore how to optimize real estate investing, create passive income, discuss operational tactics in ways you and your family can retire on rental income. If you wanna invest in real estate or currently do, then this podcast is for you.
Nicholas Cook:Today's guest is Sean Worl. He is a Vice President at Colliers and leads the multifamily group here at the Portland office. Sean, really excited to have you here. You've got a lot of knowledge when it comes to multifamily brokerage. You've done deals big and small, and and you've been at it for a while.
Nicholas Cook:So I think you're gonna be a great resource for people listening who wanna invest in multifamily in particular, and really just understand that landscape and, you know, what it takes to build a relationship with a broker like you, and really just get your expert opinion. So thanks for being here.
Sean Worl:Nick, thanks for having me. It's good to be here. I know we tried to set this for a couple months now, so glad we got it done. Excited to share what I know.
Nicholas Cook:Perfect. Perfect. Yeah. Well, you're a busy man, so I forgive you. But you're here now, so that's what matters.
Nicholas Cook:But before we jump into kind of some of your thoughts and so forth, maybe you could just tell us a little bit about, like, how did you get into multifamily brokerage? You know, obviously, it's not something you probably grew up wanting to do. So tell us a little bit how how you got started and, you know, what what got you onto that side of the business.
Sean Worl:You know, I've been asking myself that, for a number of years. How did I end up here? I got licensed in 2007. It was kind of a continuing education piece as I was going to Lane Community College at the time. I knew I wanted good old Eugene.
Sean Worl:Yeah. I knew I wanted to get into real estate and really, know, was in love with the idea of creating and building and so developing real estate. And was working with my dad. We were doing small kind of fix and flip houses in Longview and up in Clark County. Mhmm.
Sean Worl:And he sold a five plex and bought a 12 plex in 2008. So I got some experience renovating. He was doing labor at the time. So a lot of my amateur carpenter skills got their got their start there.
Nicholas Cook:So what equity?
Sean Worl:Indeed. And so, yeah, 2010 is about the time we were graduating. That's how we met. So we met in Portland State through the real estate finance program, and not a lot of developers were hiring. I interviewed every single one, told them I was going to Portland State in the real estate finance program.
Sean Worl:And how do I get into development? And they all said, you don't right now because nobody's hiring And you don't have a project management background. So I got some really good recommendations from some of the some of the known names in the development world here to get into brokerage, to learn. You're gonna see a lot in brokerage. You're gonna learn the trends and you'll see how eventually, you see how kinda everybody ticks and what, you know, what builds their business plan different from others.
Sean Worl:So that was their encouragement. I had already had my license. Nobody else is hiring except Marcus and Millichap. Thanks. Shout out to them.
Sean Worl:They had the training program. I just happened to have a friend who worked there. So I ended up interning there for six months while I finished the degree in in real estate finance and then decided I'm gonna go for it. It was that or going back to selling men's sportswear at Macy's. And it's like, why not invest in this?
Sean Worl:So Sure. It did it. Didn't make any money for the first year. Slowly but surely, they started making money. That's right.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. And so you start out. That's always a challenge. So, you know, obviously, you you you survived because you've you've built a career in that industry. But a lot of times, you know, when you do your first deal, you know, it's it's a milestone, but oftentimes, it doesn't really check a box because you're kinda like, well, you know, I got one under my belt, but maybe it's not what you what you wanted to to have accomplished at that point.
Nicholas Cook:Maybe you could just tell us about your first deal where you felt like, hey. Now I'm credible. Now I'm somebody that I can you know, when I cold call someone or I pitch somebody and they ask if I've listed property before, I can I can throw this gem out and feel confident? What was the first deal that kinda, like, tipped the scale for you where you felt like, okay. Now I'm somebody that people should trust.
Sean Worl:Yeah. God. I I sometimes I still feel like I'm I'm I'm reaching for that, you know, depending on the the size of deal.
Nicholas Cook:Comes with
Sean Worl:age, though.
Nicholas Cook:I feel like the older you get, the less you know. Right?
Sean Worl:Yeah. That's true. So I'd say I remember having a feeling within three years and certainly three to five years that, oh, okay. Now I understand that component of this business and therefore, you know, can can look that much further into the future of this the next client that I'm helping. And I'm trying to think of a specific deal, but it but it was around that time, probably three somewhere between three and five years.
Sean Worl:In the beginning, you're you're just kind of at the mercy of the players that know what they're doing, And you're just kinda getting yeah. Totally. You're you're, you know, you do your best to get a listing or to find a buyer, and then, you know, you match that with a with a seller or vice versa. And and then you basically just get ordered around until you until the deal closes and you're just like, what is going on in the process? So yeah.
Sean Worl:And that and that, you know, I feel like there's every three year, there's a there's a milestone where you just learn that much more just by beating your head against the wall Yeah. Trying, learning, listening, asking questions.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. And and and now you have the benefit of, you know, obviously, a lot of experience, a lot of transactions. And, you know, one of the things that's interesting in multifamily, and I think this is probably true in commercial at large, not as important in residential, though, a factor, but, you know, how much does reputation of the buyer, but also the broker, play into getting offers accepted? Because sometimes people will accept an offer that maybe is the price is not as high as somebody else. There are other reasons that people would accept an offer.
Nicholas Cook:And so just from your perspective, how much does the does the reputation of the players, the the buyer, and and you as the broker representing them kinda play into a seller's decision to to accept an offer?
Sean Worl:It depends on so many components. One of them being demand and and a primary one being demand. If there's one offer on the table or 10 offers on the table, there's a whole slew of different factors that Sure. That are at play. If there's if that's the only offer, doesn't really matter what the reputation is.
Sean Worl:It's just do you think that there's a, you know, pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for going down the down that road with him, going under contract? If if you are in a scenario where, let's say, there's a handful of offers and one of them has a reputation of closing and one of them doesn't, that's a pretty big indicator. You know, what's the difference in their pricing? You have to vet out, you know, if there's a lower reputational, you know, buyer with a higher offer. Well, talk us through why you, you know, walked out on these other deals and and why we should think that your offer way over everybody else's is worth worth working with.
Sean Worl:But it it matters and it's a small industry and it's a small certainly within our region, it's a small, you know, community. So reputation certainly matters. Yeah. I mean, to just know that that plays a component for sure. If you have a reputation of closing Yeah.
Sean Worl:That's a good reputation to have.
Nicholas Cook:Sure.
Sean Worl:Yeah. For getting things done. Have you ever
Nicholas Cook:been in a situation though where, like, maybe you've got a buyer who's maybe newer to the market and, you know, you hear some pushback from the seller and you're just like, hey, you know, I I can vouch for this person. Have you ever had to to do that and say, hey, you know, I I think this is a credible person you should consider?
Sean Worl:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. There there's always a million different factors, and and your opinion is usually what your clients are looking for to to guide them to meet the goals that they need. So, if there's some extenuating factors, you can certainly, you know, put that in and say, hey, we should I think we should go down this road because, you know, with that said, let's be aware of these other concerns that you might have.
Nicholas Cook:And so, you know and again, this is more true in multifamily and commercial at large, compared to residential. Whereas, you know, residential, it's really common that the buyer and seller are represented by completely different brokers.
Sean Worl:Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:It's very common. In commercial, less common. Right? You've got people who are doing both sides of the deal. Dual agency is, you know, what it's referred to.
Nicholas Cook:What percentage of transactions do you do do you would you say are dual agency versus non dual agency? Like, if you just had to guess.
Sean Worl:Yeah. We we do specialize in in seller representation. And so I would say broadly 75% of our transactions will represent both sides of the transaction. Mhmm. We do some select buy side representation.
Sean Worl:And it's just it it you know, you hit it. It's a more common factor in multifamily for a number of reasons. If there's a deal that people really want, they're best suited to work with the listing broker. If it's, you know, inherently in demand, if there's more than one buyer there, adding another broker who doesn't know the seller's needs and timeline, it just adds another link in the telephone game. And then these deals can get very complex.
Sean Worl:So the more links in the telephone game leads to just a lower probability of closing. So that's a component, you know, and that's I think the biggest component. You know, everybody talks about double ending a deal and of course, who doesn't love getting twice, you know, value? Sure. Yeah.
Sean Worl:But it nobody gets paid if a deal doesn't get closed. So it really has to do with the ability to execute and and confidence that, you know, you can take this thing all the way through the hurdles that are that are coming to close the deal.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. And that's that's a unique skill set, and I think some people do that well, others not as well. I've definitely been aware of some people who haven't maybe managed that as well. And and what I'm getting at is someone's kind of obvious probably comment that, you know, who's not familiar with that kind of arrangement, I come to you and say, well, you know, how do I know you're representing my best interest? Right?
Nicholas Cook:How are you gonna remain a fiduciary to me, but also a fiduciary to this other person? How do you respond to people who kind of raise that concern about that sort of dual agency relationship?
Sean Worl:I'll I'll respond eloquently and then and then bluntly. Oh, well, maybe just bluntly. I mean, it's a big boy's world. Girls, it's a it's a big you're assuming that you're working with accredited investors at a certain level. Sure.
Sean Worl:You know, we don't necessarily check for that. It's it's at the end of the day, the buyer is the one making those decisions. They're the ones that are signing the buyers and sellers. They're the ones that are signing these documents. And in our stay in Oregon, in particular, it's caveat emptor.
Sean Worl:It's buyer beware. So there are no seller representations. You need to be confident that you're gonna go in and do your due diligence. In terms of, like, proper representation, yeah, if if you're a if you're new to investing and you lack that confidence that, you know, I know what I'm doing here and I'm gonna be the one that's vetting this out and taking this, you know, from beginning to end, then, yeah, it could be more of a concern. Most buyers in multifamily at least have one or two other multifamily properties.
Sean Worl:Sure. They've been around the block. They they've seen, you know, things here and there. So, yeah, it's and then at the end of the day, it's just, you know, you may very well be not getting the best representation, but you're getting the deal. And what's more important?
Sean Worl:Yeah. Getting the deal or not, you know, getting getting every last penny, or ultimately buying this asset that over the next twenty, thirty years could reap these significant benefits to your family. Sure. And,
Nicholas Cook:you know, and I've noticed this has happened, you know, for me in some transactions I've done. I obviously don't focus on multifamily for sales. It's something that we really don't even focus on. It's just something we do with existing client base. But, you know, I hear things from other brokers sometimes that I am surprised they've told me during transactions.
Nicholas Cook:I'm like, wow. I don't know if your client would approve you sharing that information. And sometimes it may not even be intentional. Sometimes it's just they say something, but it's enough information that it changes some of the decision making process or the consulting that I'll give to my client, which is oftentimes a seller. I don't really work with buyers.
Nicholas Cook:Mhmm. Have you noticed that happen at all where you've gotten pieces of information either intentionally or unintentionally that you felt like, hey, I can I can use this?
Sean Worl:Yeah. And and I've been in on both sides of that situation where there's a fine line between, you know, honestly disclosing a motivation, like why are we here talking about selling this asset? Sure. Well, if I, you know, make up some story or just refuse to say anything, it just it adds to an air of that there's something's being hidden. Yeah.
Sean Worl:Lack transparency. Lack of transparency. And and so now as a buyer, you're gonna be like, well, what the hell else are they hiding? You know, I need to look at this extremely thoroughly. So, you know, certainly things that are public record but may not be readily available, you know, again, it's a pretty small community.
Sean Worl:The people that are looking at most assets are very intelligent. They have access to resources to to, you know, to dig in to find out. If it becomes a you know, if it becomes something that someone's like, oh, I know this, you know, piece of information. I'm gonna hold it over your head. That's usually a buyer that we just advise not working with.
Sean Worl:You know, it's and and again, it depends on how many other offers are there, how much leverage does each side have. But, yeah, I mean, generally speaking, we try to take more transparency than less. Just, you know, this this is the situation. This this is what we're working for.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Yeah. Well, another question I have, because again, a lot of people, they're familiar with residential, maybe not as familiar with commercial. When you're dealing with commissions on the multifamily side, what it typically is like a range that is within the industry that you see? I I know that obviously can't get into specifics, but what would somebody expect to you know, if they're underwriting something, should they factor for as a cost of sale and things like that?
Sean Worl:Yeah. It's so funny because I we got into this, I feel like at the tail end of the generation that didn't have transparency in the Internet and communication links that are so much better and So, you know, if you ask somebody that ten years ago, they would say some outlandish numbers. Usually 6% in the 1 to 3,000,000 range. It's it's understood or it's, you know, stated that you would compensate a buyer out of that. So a separate buyer is not paying a separate fee.
Sean Worl:A seller doesn't pay an additional component. Sure. You're sharing two to 3% of that depending on, you know, how much how much do you need that buyer broker to to get it across a finish or how much work did you put into it, etcetera. Sure. Over 3,000,000 up to 10, you know, it's it depends on the complexity of the deal and what you negotiate with the seller.
Sean Worl:It's all negotiable. Yeah. Could be 10%, you know, for for land sales, I've seen that. Maybe not necessarily 10, but but high. And then beyond a certain point, it's usually capped at a certain amount, you know, 250, 300.
Sean Worl:Yeah. Something in that range.
Nicholas Cook:So it's like a percentage and then a flat amount, whichever is greater or whatever or less, whatever, I guess. It's capped. Okay. Yeah. That's cool.
Nicholas Cook:That gives some context for what people might expect. You know, obviously, like, relationships matter. We touched on this a little bit. You know, for somebody who's new to the market, let's just say, and they're trying to build a relationship with brokers
Sean Worl:Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:How would you recommend somebody do that? And I imagine there's probably two different approaches depending on their level of experience. There's the person who's never bought anything before and wants to talk to or maybe they've bought something, but they've bought, like, a couple fourplexes, let's just say. And then you've got somebody who's maybe much more seasoned and financially well resourced. Like, what would be your advice if you had a client that was like, hey, John, love working with you, but I'm gonna be buying something in, some other state that you don't work in, you don't know nobody in.
Nicholas Cook:Like, how should they go about building that relationship?
Sean Worl:Yeah. I've seen this done in a lot of different ways and I would recommend a couple prong approach. One, identify who the active deal makers are, you know, the top 10 list, you know, the the five or six that are extremely active, the handful that are, you know, some sometimes active or or, you know, you see their name on deals that you would like to buy, reach out to all of them as often as you think wouldn't annoy the heck out of whoever you're reaching out to. Sure. And I think the main thing is conveying confidence.
Sean Worl:If if when you talk to that person and they show you the off market deal or they did they talk to you about the listed deal? As a broker, you're reading from the buyer, is this somebody that can and will close the deal or not? Yeah. Do they have the funds? Do they have the know how, the capability?
Sean Worl:And yeah. I mean, that's it's probability to close is is kind of a constant metric. And so I think conveying, you know, when when it but, you know, conveying that on a deal that you can't actually do that on as a as a buyer Mhmm. Wasting time, not a good thing to do. Goes to the reputation factor.
Sean Worl:But the deals that you wanna buy, you know, stating that adamantly, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna be the ones who walk this through, you know, barring any major catastrophe, assuming it's listed at a price that's in the realm of, you know
Nicholas Cook:Reasonable.
Sean Worl:Reasonableness. Yeah. Yeah. Just being kind of steadfast and being like, yep, we're we got this. We're good.
Sean Worl:You know, you see the small deferred maintenance. Hey, you know, we have that budget and we can handle that. When the big items come up, let's let's find the path to, you know, correctly mitigating this, not blowing it up into a massive retrade that, you know, waste a bunch of time. So Yeah. And then and then I think one other component to add to that, and we always say this to people when they were when they used to all be moving to Portland, we still have just do to have some coming this way, but not as not as many.
Sean Worl:It's it's go for a double on your first deal. We we saw a lot of groups come in.
Nicholas Cook:Baseball analogy.
Sean Worl:Yes. Try to try to hit the grand slam, and they they pencil everything, and they waste a bunch of time. And, you know, they ultimately just turned down a lot of deals that, depending on market timing, you know, the market would have made them grand slams, but just underwrite it to a solid double, get on base, because as soon as you come out as the buyer of that comp, you're gonna start receiving phone calls. And then then the snowball can can happen. So, yeah, don't don't be too greedy, I guess, on the first one or try to hit the home run.
Sean Worl:Just make a solid, solid play.
Nicholas Cook:And, you know, a lot of times, you know, again, I'm contrasting this for people with residential because that's where a lot of people have familiarity. Buyer, you know, buyer broker is gonna say, hey. Where's your preapproval letter? Right? Do you have an equivalent?
Nicholas Cook:Do you say, hey. I wanna see some liquidity? Do I wanna know who you're getting? Like, do you do that before you go shopping with somebody? Is there is there is that a process, or how does that look?
Sean Worl:For buyer representation? Or when we're vetting out buyers, you you
Nicholas Cook:Well, I would imagine if you're vetting out a buyer, you're definitely wanting some of that stuff because that's kind of part credibility of the offer. Right? But maybe if you're I know that you don't do a lot of buyer representation, but you're you're familiar with how that works. So Mhmm. What should somebody who's wanting to buy expect to be asked for?
Sean Worl:Yeah. Proof proof of funds, you know, not only for the earnest money deposit, but for the down payment. Mhmm. Or, you know, where are you gonna access this? What list of friends and family are you gonna raise this with?
Sean Worl:And then, you know, track record case studies, you know, list of REO. If they have a large portfolio, you know, you can kinda do the backwards math on Yeah. On what the debt Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, proof of funds is is kind of the big one.
Sean Worl:And and usually, if someone's making an offer, you can identify who they are, what they are. And then if it's a big question mark, like, can these guys perform? Then get, you know, get more information out of them. And Yeah. I think the the higher you go, you'll have full on buyer interviews.
Sean Worl:There'll be list of questions. You'll, ask them about, you know, if they're they're underwriting notes, their strategy on, you know, how they're gonna execute, you know, if interest rates change fifteen, twenty basis points in due diligence, you know, how does that you know, what what have you underwritten in terms of I'm sure. Change in interest rate environment. Got it. Okay.
Sean Worl:Well, that makes sense. Giving away all the secrets here.
Nicholas Cook:Well, that's what we want. All
Sean Worl:the secrets.
Nicholas Cook:That's why people are listening.
Sean Worl:That's right. Go buy stuff. Go buy some multifamily. Be good landlords, though. Do do it the right way.
Nicholas Cook:That's right. Exactly. You know, speaking of landlords buying and underwriting and so forth, you know, how much, I guess, help as a broker do you provide clients with underwriting their deals, whether it's a seller or a buyer? You know? Because somebody who doesn't have a lot of experience, they may not know how to factor for what, like, what does property management cost or how to budget for things that are maybe even more complex, excuse me, complex, like capex.
Nicholas Cook:Right? Large expenditures. So, like, at what level of participation do you have in in underwriting? Is it something where you're kind of working side by side or you just provide a review or maybe you could talk a
Sean Worl:little bit about that? Sure. You do more of that for less and less sophisticated and professional multifamily owners. You do less of it as they are more professional and and sophisticated. Though you do want to be able to kinda compare notes on on, you know, higher level.
Sean Worl:This is how I'm underwriting. These are my basis. This is where my notes are coming from, comparing and contrasting that, making sure there aren't big gaps in in those because that could impact value. And then, you know, if we're working with the the kind of profile that you're describing would be, you know, they have some experience in multifamily, but maybe it's been twenty years since they bought something or they inherited something that mom or dad bought and but they wanna buy something new. So they may have some experience.
Sean Worl:Some sometimes and certainly kinda early on, we'd work more with people that have no experience in multifamily. So you're you're doing a lot more. You're connecting them to different people. We always have to be careful as brokers because we can only do so much. We have to represent that we're not attorneys, accountants, you know, property managers even.
Sean Worl:But, you know, giving our expectations and and saying, you know, this is what it should be, but here's the professionals for you to talk to to confirm it. Because, again, ultimately, you're buying this. You're signing the documents. With the end of the day, when we walk away, you're you gotta own it and operate it. So it's you as to be comfortable with how it operates.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. That's a good point.
Sean Worl:But yeah. We'll we'll as needed, we'll dive in on all that stuff. You know, CapEx items, you need a budget on what that roof replacement would be. Here's three roofers. Have them take a look at it.
Sean Worl:You're gonna get it. You're gonna get the numbers from the roofer. So it's a third party, adding more to that kind of transparency and buffer of liability.
Nicholas Cook:Okay. And, you know, one of the terms that people like to talk about, it's almost, you know, in some ways, some people might frame it as gloating. They're like, oh, you know, I bought this deal off market. Right? When you hear that term, like, what comes to mind?
Nicholas Cook:Like, what do you think about that?
Sean Worl:What do I think about off market? Everybody loves off market. There's a story to be told. You know, there I mean, there's a it it just implies that you might be getting something that others didn't have access to. You know, there's there's a little bit of a potential premium there.
Sean Worl:If it's a terrible deal overpriced, it doesn't matter if it was off market or not. But let's see. Yeah. Off market. From a seller standpoint, oftentimes it's it's complex and especially if you are, you know, a lot of times it's it's families that end up owning, operating, or inheriting multifamily assets.
Sean Worl:They can be small, they can be large. But, you know, there's 15 line items on our on our categories of profit and loss. Each one of those, you know, has 10 to 15, you know, potential kind of categories on each one. Everything's different. Your insurance premium could go up.
Sean Worl:Your manager could move the next day and you can't find one unless you pay them, you know, 20% more. Debt is coming due and, oh my god, when we go to refi, we gotta put cash in. We don't have cash. This this is gonna take us under. You know, a lot of very complex scenarios that can be overwhelming.
Sean Worl:So an off market offer for some sellers is like, please just bring me somebody who's gonna take this off my hands in sixty to ninety days and give me a fair price. You know? Give me a good enough price. If I take this thing to market, it runs the risk of my on-site employee who's been there for twenty years who I never wanna see leave again leaving. Or my resident seeing that it's on market and they stop paying or they go away or Mhmm.
Sean Worl:You know, there's all these different kind of layers of that. So but, yeah, from a buyer standpoint, off market could imply and when it's in a a gloating scenario or a positive scenario, it implies that, hey, we got this deal before the thirty or 40 other buyers got to see it, and we got a good deal, you know.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Unquote. And that brings up some interesting points. So, like, obviously, as a seller, if you're not taking something to market, you might be leaving money on the table. If you've owned the building a long time, it may not bother you.
Nicholas Cook:Mhmm. But, you know, you're in the situation, you've got a book of clients. Right? You've got this deal that maybe is off market that you're listing.
Sean Worl:Right?
Nicholas Cook:How do you decide who gets to look at it first in your book of clients? Or do you just do a black like, how is that information disseminated? Is there does it vary by deal? Or are you like, hey, these are my top people. I'm gonna bring it to them first.
Nicholas Cook:Or, because you it goes back to the relationship part of, you know, that somebody has with a broker.
Sean Worl:Yeah. It does. And and brokers are talking to so many different groups and investors and some of them, they'll be the same individual that you'll talk to for fifteen years. Some of the companies open and shutter. Some of them change, you know, change shops.
Sean Worl:Mhmm. So and then some of them have access to capital for the right type of product at the right market cycle, you know, timing. So it changes. And I always like to think it's kind of in a in a three to five year timeline. You'll you'll do deals with a consistent group and they're looking for a consistent thing for that period of time and then some factor changes, you know.
Sean Worl:There's no more rent growth in this market, so we're not looking here anymore. Or the debt market changes and these don't pencil anymore, so we're not looking there anymore. So, like, if you're looking for, you know, exclusively garden style deals in suburban markets and I have an off market deal in urban Portland, I won't call you
Nicholas Cook:Sure.
Sean Worl:First. It'll be the one that I've been talking to that has been looking for that deep basis discount urban deal. So it just depends. Yeah. And and also it helps who who either is most actively calling you or you just have a close relationship with.
Sean Worl:So Sure.
Nicholas Cook:It's kind of like out of sight, out of minds, like marketing of any kind.
Sean Worl:Right? Yeah.
Nicholas Cook:So what about regulations? So, you know, you happen to be playing in the market with a lot of regulations. How much of that are you trying to prep clients for versus how much are you kind of expecting them to know about these rules? Because I know when they first came out, there was a few people that were kind of blindsided. And I'm not saying this is the broker's fault, but they were blindsided by, you know, the rules on Portland Relo or end of tenancy notice limitations for, you know, no causes after the first year.
Nicholas Cook:So how do you see your role in that and how do you, you know, kind of navigate communicating that information?
Sean Worl:When when the, you know, significant slate of regulatory changes started coming in twenty fifteen, sixteen, we stayed We were very proactive in educating our clients on what these changes were. As time has gone on, you know, certainly from 2018 to 2022, that environment was changing rapidly. Yeah. There were a lot of changes, and it kind of be it kinda morphed into the story of, you really need a professional property manager or or you're gonna have to be, you know, becoming a landlord attorney if you're, you know, an owner manager to keep track of these changes and make sure you're not, you know, stepping into significant liability. So now things have somewhat settled.
Sean Worl:There's murmurs here and there of of things. And and for the most part, at least at this stage, the groups that we're talking to, they're pretty well aware of the regulatory changes. And we kinda rely on property managers to give us updates or attorneys to give us updates. Sure. And every you know, there's municipal, there's city, there's county, state, differences between states.
Sean Worl:So we just have to be aware of them. And then in pertinent times, you know, bring them up. But again, it's, you know, it's up to the buyers to make sure they fully understand all of that. We're not attorneys. We can't we can't, you know, guide them through and and keep them away from all liability.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. That makes sense. What are some common, you know, pitfalls or mistakes you see investors make?
Sean Worl:Good question. You know, common pitfalls. You know, that's a tough one because it changes pretty dramatically. I'm trying to think of an overarching one, like through cycles of the theme. I mean, probably not putting enough down, which, you know, many people would think that's a silly statement because so much of real estate investment, especially in the fifth through, you know, tenth inning of a cycle, there are people who are either, you know, don't own outright a significant portfolio and they're trying to go from from zero to 60 quickly.
Sean Worl:Mhmm. So they're, you know, they're putting as little money down as they can Leveraging
Nicholas Cook:to the max.
Sean Worl:Leveraging to the max. Yeah. But, you know, the music stops always at some point. And usually, you know, later than he expected, but but and then all of a sudden, you know Sure. The music stops.
Sean Worl:So yeah. I mean, it's definitely patience is a virtue as they say. And I'm trying to think of anything else. Well, much
Nicholas Cook:down because I think it's a really good point, and I think it's an often overlooked point, especially, you know, over the last probably ten years. Now, most notably, maybe the last two years, people have paid more attention to that. But what do you think is a reasonable amount that you would say, hey, this is what I if you're looking to hold this, this is how much I think you should put down.
Sean Worl:Yeah. I think the best answer would be the amount that comfortably covers your debt service when you stress test it, you know, in a few different in a few different arenas. Mhmm. I mean, generally, it's 40 to 45% down. It's a factor of cash flow.
Sean Worl:It's a factor of interest rate. So that may change a little bit. Some cases it could be 50%. Some cases it could be 35%. But I I think mainly just, you know, stress test some components, you know, and that is tricky because you could get lost in the weeds stress testing all of the potential downfalls, the pitfalls.
Sean Worl:Yeah. Don't just stress test the upside because then, of course, you're gonna you're gonna jump right in. But yeah. I mean, if you never buy it, then you never will experience the upside. And, you know, we keep making babies and and we certainly are making more land.
Sean Worl:So I think the long term approach is always always better. But I'm sorry, even with that. I'm totally off track on your
Nicholas Cook:No. I mean it question. You know, I think that's the thing is there's a lot of people, you know, that we've seen less in our market, although maybe you have a different perspective. But certainly, we've seen as a trend where they don't have deep real estate experience. They're social.
Nicholas Cook:They're good at raising money. They may even have access to capital. And, you know, they were buying stuff and, you know, they got into the business for the first time maybe in 2020, 2021.
Sean Worl:Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:And that really kind of colored their vision of how things go. And then now five years later when some of these loans are coming due, they're in a really bad position.
Sean Worl:Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:So I think it's important because, you know, real estate over the long term, if you can hold it, you'll be fine.
Sean Worl:Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:Like, time will solve all problems in real estate. But if you don't plan for contingencies, you can lose everything.
Sean Worl:You
Nicholas Cook:know? And you can lose not only the building, but a lot of times, you're assigning personal guarantees on loans and then, you know, you're even further down into a problem. So I think it's a I think it's an overlooked point, and I think people sometimes are focused on, you know, getting rich quick. And it goes back to, again, to your piece of advice, which is, you know, hit a double, not a grand slam. Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:There'll be an opportunity for a grand slam. But, like, while you're building your foundation, do boring deals. Yep. You know?
Sean Worl:Do boring deals. Do small deals. Do do deals that you can keep during the downside, I think, to your point. And, you know, I I do think for groups that are that are looking you know, retail investors that are looking to get into multifamily or any kind of commercial real estate for the first time. If you're dreaming of the empire, you know, think about it as coming for your kids.
Sean Worl:Like, you may see it in your eighties. Yeah. But it's a long game, and you don't get there if you lose it all because you went too hard Yeah. When you shouldn't have. There are times in the cycle where, you know, you can you can get in and do the short term and do the do the intense business plan.
Sean Worl:And that's probably in about two years, you know, it's it's early cycle, but not too early to where you'd miss out on on the all the upside.
Nicholas Cook:Sure.
Sean Worl:And you lose it before then. But, yeah, it's it's it's a long term game. It's patient.
Nicholas Cook:Cool. Well, maybe you can share with us maybe a memorable client story that you have. Something that you just story that really comes to mind. Either it could be a great thing where it's like, hey, they really hit it out of the park. They won.
Nicholas Cook:I was super happy for them. Or it can be like, man, this is a lesson in what not to do. Do you have anything that kinda, like, sticks out in your mind that you think would be worth sharing, good learning opportunity for people?
Sean Worl:No. No. I don't. No. No.
Sean Worl:I I, you know, don't ever wanna break confidence. Sure. I think it's been exciting to see a lot of people grow, you know, their their family's business or their internal business. And, you know, I don't know. I I think I think less is more.
Sean Worl:Don't don't don't go put gold plated, you know, fixtures in an apartment building that has nice clean new fixtures. And and I guess how does that relate to your story? Just seeing clients that have like followed that and stayed diligent to, you know, hey, we're we're you know, know what you're offering. If you're offering a b or c class apartment living place, doesn't make sense to, you know, dramatically improve the property.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Like, don't project. Don't don't I mean, like, obviously, you wanna respect the building. You wanna do nice things.
Sean Worl:Projection is, I think, a part of that. Totally. It's yeah. It's like, well,
Nicholas Cook:would I wanna live here? And I think that's a good standard to a degree. Yeah. But at some point, you wanna match your amenities with your asset class. Yeah.
Nicholas Cook:Right? And your finishes with your asset class.
Sean Worl:Absolutely. And those are the ones that, you know, are the success stories in the in the game that, you know.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, John, we're gonna take a quick break Okay. For a word from our sponsor, and then we'll be right back.
Nicholas Cook:Awesome. Cool. This show is sponsored by Sleep Sound Property Management, one of Portland's largest and top rated management companies that specializes in multifamily and residential real estate. They can help you acquire, operate, protect, and sell or exchange your properties. If you want to invest in real estate, give them a call or visit them online at sleepsoundpm.com.
Nicholas Cook:That's sleepsoundpm.com. Alright. We're back. Sean, thanks for joining us again. You know, one of the questions that I have is, is there something that you feel like that clients don't know that you wish that they did?
Nicholas Cook:Meaning, you know, it's a frequent conversation you're having with people. It could be, you know, guiding them through the emotional roller coaster of buying. It could be maybe something they miss in underwriting. But is there anything that comes to mind that you've just kinda noticed that, like, hey, this is just one of those things that when you're with your other broker friends and you're talking, you're like, man, this is the same old conversation again. Is it like, what what is it that kind of strikes a chord with you?
Sean Worl:I I know there are there are factors like that. I think, yeah, the more sophisticated buyer group, it's, you know, seems like almost the opposite where you're they're they know more than you do.
Nicholas Cook:Is that more on, like, the institutional level or are you
Sean Worl:talking about still also, like, private equity? Institutional or family office. Yeah. Let's see. Yeah.
Sean Worl:I mean, there's certainly there there are trends that pop up here here more, but certainly over, like, a, you know, more of a private client investor where they're just less attuned to the way the business works. And and so nothing's popping out, I guess, immediately. Cool. I'm circling back. If I can think of something, I'll come back to that.
Sean Worl:Got it.
Nicholas Cook:Well, one of things I wanna talk with you about, because it's always a moving target, is a little bit about, you know, market conditions, market trends, what you're seeing. Mhmm. One of the things I'm curious, and again, you can add more color to this, but are you seeing more seller financing options out there than you have before, or is that not really showing up a ton? Maybe you could just talk about, you know, where that's kinda playing out and kind of the overall market that you're you're seeing where it's moving.
Sean Worl:Yeah. It's it's I'm seeing that, but in another name. It's it's a recapitalization. So a a group that for whatever reason, you know, depending on their basis doesn't wanna sell under the current market conditions, they're offering to reinvest into the new entity and it is, you know, in effect a reduction of the amount of money that that buyer then needs to come to the table with. They're taking on a new partner.
Nicholas Cook:Interesting.
Sean Worl:But it's yeah. So it's that by another name. Seller financing, I I think you you probably do see more of that, you know, in the five to 10 unit space. But it's not it's not been a common conversation that that we've had. If and then it's just sometimes it's a rare occurrence where there's an owner that has enough equity in a deal to where it makes sense to leave money Sure.
Sean Worl:There. Yeah. Oftentimes, it just doesn't make any sense. They they need to pay off their loan, and they would like to have some, you know, fruits for their labor. And if they're then leaving, you know, a large slug there, it's in my experience, it's rare.
Sean Worl:I know it is coming up more over the last couple years just as debt gets difficult to acquire and Yeah. Interest rates rise.
Nicholas Cook:So this recapitalization thing, that's really interesting because from an outsider standpoint, that sounds like that would be more complicated than seller financing. Right? Because you're the seller is essentially rolling in their capital into the deal, which is a form of seller financing, like you said. Mhmm. But bringing on a partner is scary business.
Nicholas Cook:Right? Like, you don't know how that operator's gonna, you know, be you don't know how they handle risk or how they make decisions. So it's interesting. What what what do you think has kind of prompted people to be comfortable with that type of thing, or or what do you think is driving that?
Sean Worl:I mean, a lot of it's out of necessity. I don't think you choose to do that. Yeah. In some cases, in in oftentimes, it's in existing partnerships. So Got it.
Sean Worl:You have an asset that's owned, you know, operated by one entity and it's got a couple limited partners. And the limited partners believe in the long term. They don't really need the money, you know, or and I'd say more frequently, it's we have an asset that's had a value correction and we want to keep as much money in you know, bring in a new equity partner to close a permanent loan. Yeah. And we're gonna keep whatever equity chunk we can negotiate and, you know, whatever sliver we can we can hang on to to hope for upside in in brighter days down the road.
Nicholas Cook:That makes more sense. And and I think that, yeah, if you've got a motivated seller and you've got somebody who is not able to refinance, then, yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. And there and there may
Sean Worl:be other reasons too, but Typically, they're not able to refinance, so they
Nicholas Cook:yeah. Got it. So what else is your kinda take on the market? Like, what trends are you seeing? You know, that's always what people are trying to do is read the tea leaves and
Sean Worl:Yeah. You know. Nobody has the answer.
Nicholas Cook:Oh, you did.
Sean Worl:Yeah. Right. I'll I'll give you mine, but it is it's pretty fascinating to everybody has a different thesis. Yeah. And they're gonna place their bets on the table and give it time to see if it if it worked out or not.
Sean Worl:There's no clear, you know, at least right now in my purview, there's no clear, like, market. And I think part of that is more of the broader generational changes that have happened in the last ten to fifteen years, twenty years, where before that transparency and speed to communicate and speed to execute was so much slower. So you could see these large disparities open up in, let's say, Portland in 2010. Mhmm. And and even today, we're still the most affordable on the West Coast for a major metropolitan area.
Sean Worl:But at the time, was much more dramatic, and you're offering, you know, a really similar quality of life. I'm talking, you know, more of a tenant demand component here. And and so I guess what I'm getting at is investors have sought out these areas that offer a high quality of life that have a low rent, you know, a low set rent rental rate in the area that if you go in and you do add some value, that quality of life story will appeal to more residents who either, you know, could move there or are moving there. And right now, you know, post COVID, we saw people flee urban areas for all the all the reasons, you know, I think COVID related from West Coast capitals or coastal capitals. Let's get some fresh air.
Sean Worl:You know? We're everywhere we go, we're wearing masks, so let's go to a house that we got a backyard. Let's get more you know, now we're working from home, and we need a podcast studio, so let's go to, you know, get a three bedroom instead of the two or the studio or the one. But that's kind of petered out, you know, and we saw a lot of supply new supply build to accommodate that. And, now that's slowing down.
Sean Worl:The economic picture is unique. I think there's some sea changes happening in that that need to play out before we see the long term economic growth.
Nicholas Cook:Mhmm. Are you talking about nationally sea changes, or you're talking about more regionally?
Sean Worl:I'm talking about evolutionarily. I think the you know, artificial intelligence is
Nicholas Cook:Oh, okay.
Sean Worl:Dramatic in in terms of we don't quite know what the downstream effects will be from an employment standpoint. And, you know, this is not my world. It's just a finger in the wind of, you know, listening to what I can. But, you know, what drove most of the development of urban Portland in 2010 was the young, you know, tech professional. Mhmm.
Sean Worl:As it did within every other city and, you know, it was it was a clear bubble at some point. And now there's a massive, you know, upheaval in in the tech space. So, you know, what are the new major job drivers? We always regionally would rely on Intel and Nike as Westside, you know, staples, you know, major employment hubs and ancillary businesses that they built off that. They're not in the same position they were fifteen years ago.
Sean Worl:Yeah. But, you know, NVIDIA is investing in Intel. And what does that mean?
Nicholas Cook:That was wild.
Sean Worl:Could that be could that be a future acquisition? You know? Who who knows? So I think things will change and and morph. So to to the point of trends, I think we have the demographic trends that the largest cohort, you know, passing through the, the rental or, you know, residential demand, timeline right now is millennials, and they're at an age where they want a little more space.
Sean Worl:And, you know, but there's the balancing act factor of, well, how far out do I go where I still retain access to the most abundance of of employment opportunities.
Nicholas Cook:Where do you think, I guess, just to because there's a lot of unknowns. Right? Mhmm. But a lot of people, they underwrite deals five years, seven years. That's pretty typical.
Nicholas Cook:What would you that feels a lot closer to where we are. Right? I mean, still radically, things could change. Mhmm. Just looking back five years, we could see what what happened.
Nicholas Cook:So that's kind of an indicator. But, you know, for somebody who's thinking about buying a building in the next year, are you and again, I realize this is gonna be very regional or whatever, but I mean, is your general sentiment like, hey, that's probably a good play?
Sean Worl:To to purchase an asset now? Mhmm. It's historically the best time ever to buy right now. No. It really is.
Sean Worl:I mean, we're seeing asset values, and and this goes towards the most obvious and simplistic, you know, real estate, not paradigm, but, you know, principle, which is when everybody else is over here, you should be buying over here. And when everybody else is bullish, you should be sheepish and vice versa, bearish and bullish. We're seeing asset values in urban Portland that were from fifteen years ago, in some cases more. So you can reach back into time and get an asset value that we know whether it's five, ten, fifteen, twenty is gonna be correcting back and, you know, get back on that, you know, average three percent year over year growth. So there will come a time where there's a a hockey stick correction.
Sean Worl:It's hard to see with current politics, but we'll we'll get there.
Nicholas Cook:So it's it's it's sorry. Go ahead. Let me interrupt.
Sean Worl:No. No. No. No. I ran the gun.
Nicholas Cook:Well, you brought up I mean, it's a good thing, and because I did wanna get your thoughts on the Portland market and Oregon more broadly. You know? Yeah. I mean, there's you do see values. You you know?
Nicholas Cook:I didn't realize that they had kind of rolled back that far in some cases, But I've seen cap rates, improve for investors pretty dramatically if you're a buyer. Right? You're going in cap rate looks a lot nicer than it was a couple years ago. On paper.
Sean Worl:On paper. Yeah. The marketing brochure.
Nicholas Cook:Sure. Well, yeah. And then you've got to figure out the debt side. Right? Because that's gonna Yeah.
Nicholas Cook:Determine some stuff. But if you're looking at the NOI part, you're kind of, you know, except for maybe taxes, you gotta factor for and so forth. But Yeah. Know, sure, those buildings, let's just say fifteen years ago, they were, you know, x price. Say this building was $10,000,000, and now you can buy it for 11 or something.
Nicholas Cook:Right? So you're you're pretty close to what it was.
Sean Worl:Yeah.
Nicholas Cook:Some of the things that didn't exist fifteen years ago that were, you know, rent control, Portland Relo, fair ordinance. So there's a certain amount of adjustment for that. But I am curious, because I don't think it's regulation alone that has caused people to pause on the region. What do you think, in your opinion, is? Like, what do you think has caused people to say, you know, I would rather invest in Boise, Idaho or, you know, Nashville than Portland?
Sean Worl:Yeah. I agree. I don't think it's just regulation. It's it's a combination of so many things that can be summarized in if you're going to place a bet, if you're going to purchase something that you want to at least be worth what you purchased it for, if not make some some return. For the most part, it's hard to trust that that investment will increase in Portland.
Sean Worl:There's way more case studies where the value has gone down, and it's gonna take a generation, I think, for that. We need rent growth. We need positive rent growth. And that's a signal that that there's demand to live here. But there's so many other factors, you know.
Sean Worl:You mentioned cap rates, I made a joke about the real cap rate, let's say. But, you know, as an example, new construction that would have traded at the peak in the $3.63 70 a door range. It's wild. Yeah. It was a big price.
Sean Worl:You know, now being a 180 to 200,000 per unit, so about half. And the cap rate, you would think, would be a 5 and a half 6, which is where things should be. And you're you know, generally, the expectation is the cap rates are a little better unless there's demand for that asset. And then that's, you know, it's who who wants it the most. But for that urban product, because of the dramatic increase in repairs and maintenance for a building, because of the much needed increases in payroll for people who are on-site fixing and leasing units, and overhead for keeping up with regulatory changes.
Sean Worl:You know, you run a management company, somebody's gotta do that. Right? Yeah. You couple that with insurance and taxes. All the while, you're either having downward rent growth, so not growth, plus concessions, plus and this I can only quantify as just this anti landlord sentiment that has popped up.
Sean Worl:But in 2019, 2020, especially, you started to see people just stop paying rent entirely. And of course, some cases that was out of necessity and they just couldn't, and that's a tough situation to be in. Oftentimes, these are people that would go from building to building, run up $10,000, And because of the the tight regulations, it was hard to to get them out. So what I'm getting at is it could be half the value. So you think that the the cap rate would be better, but it's still a four cap.
Sean Worl:It's a it's a three, four, five cap. Yeah. So it's a it's a weird combination of a lot of things. The regulations are I actually you know, I'm gonna get a lot of crap for saying this. I actually kind of like what we have in place now.
Sean Worl:Mhmm. It puts clear parameters on, you know, when it's inevitable that at some point we'll have significant rent growth. We are not building enough housing, and we still maintain enough, you know, positive quality of life born on the backs of the community and the business owners, certainly not, you know, the policymakers. And so when it is double digit rent growth, when it is 20% rent growth, you know, it's nice that there's going to be some cap there. There's not a cap in expenses, you know.
Sean Worl:I get that it's not it's not an easy thing, but I, you know, I I struggled with the regulations for years just because it all of a sudden I'm selling an asset that is either worth worth less or is so much more complicated for people to wrap their head around. Why should I buy here? But it's actually it's pretty clear, it's pretty straightforward. If it gets more and more onerous, it's only gonna drive to less and less investment in housing. That shoots us in the foot over over the long run.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Are you seeing because another thing that a lot of times people don't think about is insurance. Mhmm. Right? And the age of buildings.
Nicholas Cook:And, you know, Oregon, in an Oregon way has made insurance, you know, underwriting insurance more difficult. So you've had a lot of people leave the market. And the ones that have stayed have have started to, at least that's what I've heard, lean more towards, you know, product that was built, you know, post 1990.
Sean Worl:Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:Are are you kind of seeing that in the demand for the products that you see buyers are looking for? Has that has that started to show up in terms of deals that are people making offers on and getting closed?
Sean Worl:Yeah. That that hit in heavy in 2023. It it started before that, but I think especially 2023. And that was at the same time of, you know, massive correction in the in the capital markets. And in, you know, October 2022, 50 basis points increase by the Fed.
Sean Worl:And so that led to a 90% decrease in sales, you know, that year depending on what what metric you're looking at. And it was it was another component. There was just, you know, Portland developers always say developing in Portland is death by a thousand cuts. It's not any one thing. It's all the things combined.
Nicholas Cook:Sure.
Sean Worl:Yeah. And that's death by a thousand cuts trying to sell a building. You just you couldn't do it. It didn't make any sense.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. But it sounds like you've seen that improve.
Sean Worl:It seems to have stabilized. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It seems to have stabilized.
Sean Worl:I think I think there have been alternative groups that have come in to get the older product. Yeah.
Nicholas Cook:Cool. Well, Sean, those are all the kind of formal questions I have for you. I've got a couple more casual ones so that we get to Alright. We get to know Sean Worrall a little bit better. We always like to wrap up the episode and give the audience a better sense of who this guy is.
Nicholas Cook:But I just have a general basic question for you, first and foremost. It's like, what do you do to unplug? Right? Because you're obviously grinding. You're you're making calls.
Nicholas Cook:You're hustling. You gotta unplug sometime. What do you what do you do to to kind of recharge?
Sean Worl:Yeah. I it it I I tend to do different things. Like, I feel like I go through different seasons of a hobby or an interest. Sure. And one that I have found to be my best for unplugging is some some form of carpentry work or, like, fixing my house.
Sean Worl:You know, we've always bought houses that are sixty, seventy years old, and I'm probably too cheap to do it. My you know, for or just I'm too, like, I don't wanna, you know, hire someone to come in and do it wrong. Sure. I'm trying to get better at that, but I really have always loved, you know, one, you do it yourself, and then you get to walk by that thing that you did and, you know, feel, look at that. I did that.
Sean Worl:That's great. It's exactly how I wanted it to. Golf. I'm getting more into golf. I have three daughters and they're everything.
Sean Worl:They're the center of my life. So just spending time with them. They're three, seven, and nine. And at ages that are really fun to introduce them to, you know, all the new things. So we're we're knee deep in in the practices right now.
Sean Worl:Cool. Yeah. Hanging out with friends, going to going to do good stuff. Yeah.
Nicholas Cook:I like it. Well, you mentioned, obviously, you've got a family. You've got three daughters. And, you know, what is something that you wanna give your family, you know, as part of being, you know, a husband or a father? Something that you wanna give them that you feel like you didn't maybe have growing up.
Sean Worl:You know, you you you started that question. I immediately thought of something, and and it probably resonates all all through that question in terms of did I have it or not when I was growing up. But more than anything, I want them to just believe in their own capabilities, believe that they can do things. I want them to, yeah, feel like they have a place in this world that they can make a positive impact. And and I and I had that somewhat, but there's there you know, I feel like the world clan, we have we have our doubts.
Sean Worl:You know? We wanna hedge our bets. Sure. So yeah. That'd probably be it.
Nicholas Cook:Okay. And then final question here is, what's something on your bucket list that you are committed to doing?
Sean Worl:Something on my bucket list that I'm committed to doing. I wanna travel to quite a few places with my family. That's one. I I started writing a story in during COVID, and I wanna complete it. I wanna finish it.
Sean Worl:And just say that I say that I wrote a story. So
Nicholas Cook:There you go.
Sean Worl:Yeah. Those two things.
Nicholas Cook:Those are great. Those are great. Well, thanks, Sean. Really appreciate you, coming on the podcast. If people wanna reach out to you, you know, maybe they wanna buy a building in this market and, and you're definitely the guy I'd recommend, how can they reach you?
Sean Worl:Let's see. You can Google my name. Sean Worl, s e a n w o r l. You can find me on my Colliers website. My cell phone is (503) 997-8755.
Sean Worl:Maybe you should cut that part off.
Nicholas Cook:It's out there now. Yeah. No. I hear you. Cool.
Nicholas Cook:Well, great. Thanks for thanks for coming on, Sean. Cool. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Good to see you, buddy. Bye. And that concludes today's episode of retire on rentals. But we do have a quick favor to ask before you jump off.
Nicholas Cook:If haven't already, please go ahead and like and subscribe. More engagement means better content and more excellent guests. And we look forward to joining you on your real estate journey. Now remember, stay focused, stay driven, so you can retire on rentals.