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We’ve spent the past few years embracing a new way of working. Whether your team is local, or distributed across global time zones; whether you work remote, hybrid, or in-office; we’ve all had to adapt to working in a new way. So what’s the best way to work? And how do companies enable their teams to do their best work?
Welcome to Work Everywhere, a podcast brought to you by allwhere. This season, we’ll be diving deep into the topics shaping today’s working world, with the people shaping it, to attempt to answer the question: when it comes to the best way to work, what works best?
Tune in to this season on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. Work Everywhere is brought to you by allwhere. Learn more about how allwhere can help your team streamline procurement, logistics, and deployment at www.allwhere.co
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Okay, hello, Tory, thank you so much for coming on. We're so excited to have you on our podcast. Um, Ben and I obviously know you pretty well, but for our listeners who might not know you, Do you mind just introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
I would love nothing more. I, I'm Tory Armanderis, pronouns, she her, I am currently the head of people operations at startup called Read me, I've been in People operations for a few years now, in a variety of roles all in startups. I'm really passionate about start up space and building scalable systems that are really centered around people and humans. And that's why I'm in the role that I'm in. That's why I do it. I do. It's my main passion in in this world, and just the best job That I could ever have.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Amazing Well, Ben and I I think obviously relate to that is people who are also in the start up space. But what we are a little bit admittedly new to, I think is like the H. r space, so we're really excited to talk to you a little bit about that. Could you talk in some more detail about what your current role now looks like, and maybe a couple of your previous roles that brought you here.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah, I would love to. So my current role, I think there's start up. start up roles are just all a little bit of everything, So my current role is a little bit of compliance and administration work, and getting set up in new states for the first time, and hiring, and the whole talent acquisition side, and then what I call the fields, So there's like the facts in the fields, and the fields are how to make people feel like they belong here. Read me, And we are doing the best work of their careers as something that we talk about a lot. How are we enabling you to feel so comfortable that you can just take off, So a lot of it is around. How do we talk about performance? How do we talk about growth? How do we talk about promotion paths and future states of your career, And what's your North Star? And how does that work with the Rins North Star Mission? And how are we all growing together? Because that's one of the reasons I love the start up space so much. All growth. There's so much there's so much growth. Sometimes it can feel really overwhelming. so everything is new. Everything is. Usually we're doing it for the first time, but that's my role in a nutshell. I have a wonderful team that focuses on the talentacqisition, actually hiring piece, but I do a lot of the rest of it.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Amazing. And how how was your kind of transition to read me? How long have you been there? And what did your other roles look like?
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
M. Yeah, this is sorry. you've asked me that like a couple of times now. I will answer it. this time
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Yeah,
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
I started.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
It's okay. It's
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
we
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
okay.
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
got there.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
we're getting. We're all getting our bearings.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
So I've been at me for almost a year now, which is the fastest year of my life. I cannot believe it, but I started in April of twenty twenty two, and before that I was at another started called Verifiable, where I got just the biggest crash course in compliance, like suck to compliance, which I didn't know exist until I started that job, but ended up being knee deep in that which was wonderful and global. What does it look like to employ people around the world, and not just in the United States? It took remote work to a whole new level. Before that, I was at another start called Tranual, which is also in the space its documentation platform. It's one of my favorite tools. That's really where I dove into people operations. For the first time. I had the most incredible mentor in the world. To this day, She's my mentor and one of my best friends who got me started in the space, and that truly, I was the first person on her team and just everything we did Doing For the first time, I was the nineteenth employee, and when I left there over a hundred employees so wild times absolutely wild, but
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Yeah, it's It's
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
at
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
a
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
the
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
lot
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
center
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
bigger
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
of all
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
now,
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
of it
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
too. sorry,
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
it's
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
I
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
huge.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
was just saying
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Now.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
and yeah, now it's a huge, huge company.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
No, they're incredible and they do such great work and I am just shearing the mom from the sidelines.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Amazing. Yeah, I love what you were saying about the importance of that mentor ship to, because I, I would want to bring that up. Probably later on in our conversation today. I'm really interested, kind of as like an aside to the other topics that we have on the docket, But what does Mentor Ship look like, especially in H. R? Now that we are in a remote world, you know, because so
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
M.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
much of that
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
hm,
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
especially kind of early on or in the middle of your career, it comes from that in person Interaction and spending all that time together,
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah,
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
so I'd be curious to hear how, now that you're in a position of mentor ship, how do you approach that? But we don't have to get to that
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Uh,
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Now. it's just something
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
uh,
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
that I thought of as you were saying that.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
We can. I will happily dive right into that if we want to go on that tangent. But if we have something else we want to talk about first, I'm happy to do that, too.
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Yeah, I mean, I think you know. I think the main topic we want to talk about today and something you know in our kind of relationship and conversations with you. Tory, kind of centers around this idea of you know, the the journey of the employe, and like how important it is you know through the entire life cycle of the employee, and that you know, we always think about on boarding and getting started and training, and kind of you know, managing the employe through that life cycle, but a big Part of that you know, and the one that we often don't want to talk about our focus on is like the end of an employe journey, which is just as important you know, we think, and we
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
should think is just as important as kind of getting started. Both how we deal with it internally and and how we set people up, you know for success within the team and themselves, and so you know, kind of diving right into it. I'd love to talk about that. like why getting off boarding right is so Important? It's something that is unfortunately very topical right now. But why you know? why is it so important? Why do you think companies like so often kind of down, play it or like, let it slide, or don't have a plan or a process in place When when that is so important, If you can kind of share your thoughts on that with us would be, you know, Really helpful.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah, I would. I would say Off boarding is as important, if not more important than on boarding, because on boarding is exciting and there is so many positive emotions and it's starting a journey, but off boarding is scary, and even if it's you've chosen to leavin, you're taking the next step in your career And it's exciting and its own way. It's scary and having a fear based situation like that. That's that's the reason people avoid. That's the real And no one wants to talk about it Because it's a negative emotion often times and I think you're never going to separate the fear from it, But there are things that you can do to alleviate the fear and to make it feel positive. and when I think of human center off boarding, I think of how are we putting this person who I've gotten to work with who I've gotten to know. I've probably know a little about their families. I spend more time with them than I've spent with my family. There's still a person and home and putting them at the center and at the four Front, also of of what we're doing enough this process and it's not something people plan for because in my experience it's a little different every time and the situation is a little different and the situation the companies in is a little different, so it's just what is the question I ask? Going into it is what is the best thing that I can do for this person who I care about so much whose journey is ending with us? What is what is the best thing at? I can do for them. And whether that's just Get a really clean experience, Some people just need it to be a really professional and clean cut, and they need you not to bring your emotions into it and just make it like hay. Okay, this is the end and let's talk logistics, and let's easy out, And there should be no catches on the logistics front. You should have that all buttoned up to a t. so that that is not added to this somewhat dramatic event. Whicshould often, time is in the in the experience of the employee who is leaving, And some people need and want to maintain a really strong relationship And that's what they need from you and they need to have some vulnerable conversations and they need to understand and they have questions, and you have to be able to put on a little bit of both hats and be prepared to address the needs of the employe who is leaving or the employees, if it's multiple employes who are leaving, And that all starts with having just being as prepared as possible on the logistics side, So you don't have to think about any of that and all you're thinking about is what do they need? What do they need for me? Am I giving it to them?
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Yeah, I
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Yeah,
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
think
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
I
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
that
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
think
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
emotional.
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
like. Yeah,
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
I
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
I was
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
think
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
just
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
that.
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
gonna. I was. I was going to add in, you know, and the like, the expectation setting, and of course, like so much of it is. Listen. I've been Every side of the equation, you know, quite candidly like I've been laid off unexpectedly. I've had to lay off people unexpectedly. I've left myself voluntarily. I've been through and there's never been one. Like going back to your kind of early comment about being fear driven, and just like, not not an experience that anyone ever wants to deal with or go through both on kind of the internal, the manager side or the h, R side or the employees side. It's all So never been the same for me, Right and I feel like there's been ups and downs of the experience, which is like, maybe I had a great experience with the manager that had to deal with it if I was being laid off. But then I had a terrible experience with H. R, and I think like setting those expectations and building more process around that internally because even the component of like training managers are training other employes of how that you know so often we feel like it's something you can just You know for lack of a better term, Like dump on the H, R team of the people team, and not better trained managers are better set their expectations of how to deal with it, and you know, to your point of like human, centered off boarding, I feel like the human aspect is every component of the entire equation right. It's like the internal team. It's the manager of the team. It's even peers. Like setting those expectations, I think it's a three hundred and sixty degree thing. Don't think that. Unfortunately, a lot of teams always think of it that way, and I think more and more, especially in a world where we're so distributed or remote or in person, there's so many different situations like you, hear these horror stories right of someone that is coming into an office, but then they're being laid off like by zoom right in like a mass lay off situation or an individual one. I've heard stories of people that are like invited to a conference room and they show up and there's like a laptop in the conference room and so Remote R employe meeting them. Got to lay them off. You know what I mean. So I think that that human centered part I love that I love that term and like it might sound obvious to some people, but I think I think so often is this experience like cold, and just process driven And there's so many ways to do it that could be better right. And so I think the more we talk about this, And more like, remove the stigma around it and make it something that we can be more confident about. Like on all sides, I think that would be you know, hopefully what we can achieve, and like having this conversation and like creating the content we're creating about it and just openly talking about it a lot more. Um, just not to kind of drone on about it. But you know, I think you covered a lot of it in the human centre piece, But if you could really define, You know the terminology of human centered off boarding, or being human centered at all, Like generally in people, teams in h, r, teams like just quickly. Like. How would you define that
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah, I like to say that H r is for the business and people operations is for the employee, And so when I think of human center at anything, human center to H R is, in my opinion, it's people operations is the reason that this has taken a little bit of a shift, And it's saying how can I protect the employee to, Because your instinct, and when I put on my h r at my instinct does to button up and tighten everything up and not give any information. And People feel the negativity of that experience, which is one way vulnerability. This is a very vulnerable situation for them. But if you're you know, baseless r person on a computer representing the business. you're taking out your humanity, which is the whole point. The whole point is, I'm a human and you're human, and as a part of my job, in the biggest part of my job is making sure that whenever we do anything, whether it's off board On boarding, whether it's just helping someone get a new compute or whatever it is, it's keeping the fact that whoever you're working with a person as well, and and taking off your h. r hat sometimes to say this is scary for me and it's scary for the business, but that doesn't matter what matters is you?
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Yeah, I
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Totally?
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
think
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
I mean just just to play Devil's advocate. I'm sorry, Veronica. I didn't mean to cut you off. I just want to interject one thing here, because I think people that are listening to this might might think this a little bit, which is, you can only set up expectation. Sure, it sounds great to be human centered. You care about people, but at the end of the day, if someone's being laid off, there's going to be this. You know, Back to this sense of fear, the sense of negativity, and also oftentimes that manifest, and kind of like it, Stility, and things like that. And so how would you react to that of like? No matter how much you want to be real, you have a relationship with this person. You're still dealing with a hard situation with them. And there's going to be some level of hostility that comes from shock or the negativity around it, you know, So we oft it as humans. we just act on instinct. right in that inininstinct is driven by emotion and fear. So How in that situation how would you continue to kind of push through that that concept of being like human centered and just for someone that's someone that's kind of you know to play Devil's advocate. Someone that's saying like that's just not going to work. That's still H. R. telling someone that they're getting laid off
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah, so a couple of a couple of things, I would say human center doesn't mean perfect, nor does it mean sunshine than daisies and rainbows. It means that we have done the best that we possibly could to take care of you, and in a situation and I am, I am not a perfect person and I am definitely not a perfect person when it comes to to my my job, And there have been times where I've done this poorly and it has. It has resulted in more hostility, and for me What I have to do, keeping the keeping, the person who is, maybe even being incredibly insulting or rude, or personally, they know. You know. they know me personally as well, keeping the fact that this is not about me. It's not. it's not about me, And that's when I put on more of my professional hat and I say Okay, What you need for me is not my feelings. What you need for me is listening to your feelings and doing the best that I can to ease them. And that doesn't mean I always can, but it means that I have done my absolute all to try. And if you take that before offboarning, even happens, if you say every experience they have when they come to me when they come to their manager, who I hope is also in the room when they're hearing this news for the first time, especially if it's in volunt voluntary that they're leaving. What what I would say is they know me and they know that with everything that I've done before now it has truly been for their best, We've built a level of trust. So it's not just that day, it's everything that happens before that, and it's why their whole life cycle is so important when you take into account how it ends, Like how their journey with your company ends, and again, that doesn't mean it's going to be happy, and that doesn't mean it's going to be perfect. I've had things where it did go really well and it was mutually beneficial and almost always they ended up going on to a role that was so much a better it for them for them personally, for them Fessionally, and I got to see them bounce back from that, but they may still hold that hostility for me because I was a part of a really hard time in their journey And that's okay and it's okay. I would hope I would hope that that's not the norm, but it's okay if that is how it has to be sometimes
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
I think what it comes down to is honestly partly a cultural issue because we're taught that we should not bring our emotions into work, and that that shouldn't be a part of what happens there. But it's natural that people are going to bring their emotions into work because you're spending most of your time doing it and you're
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Right.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
spending a lot of time with the same people, and in reality that's the same as like you know any human relationship. Sometimes there will be conflict. Um, and so when you Ave a layoff or some kind of off boarding situation, in reality is a very emotional situation. You know. this person is going a, validly have a lot of concerns about what their future is going to look like, And it's results in this strange like paradox where you're in a very emotional situation, but you have to manage the kind of cultural expectations around how you're supposed to act in the workplace, so I'm really glad that you and many other People are working to kind of humanize off boarding, because it's something that I think has been brushed under the rug and is really just kind of a manifestation of how we're taught to not show our emotions at work ever, and have that just not be a part of the thing that we're spending most of our time doing. Um, but kind of on that. I've been thinking a lot about how these mass off boardings that we've unfortunately been seeing recently have worked The side of the employer. Um, obviously we spend most of our time empathizing with the employees as we should, but I've thought also, what does that kind of day to day look like for the H R people, and shaking your head, and the people of people who are having to lay off hundreds of people at once, but then also coordinate all of their severance and their health insurance and equipment retrieval, and like everything that goes along with that, Um, do you have any thoughts on how you've seen that look in the last couple of months, and also just in terms of advice. how would you advise an H r team to prepare themselves emotionally for conducting a layoff like this?
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
I, I don't know if there's any good way to prepare for that and I think it's also, I try to go into it like genuinely saying this is not about me, but with that comes Ah, feels like a little bit of an island right when you're when you're in people, operations in your n. h. R. And you know everything that you know. There's no one at the at the company. For the most part, May be one person that you can go to and talk to about it. and for me what I need when I'm Ocessing, just this vast number of emotions and stress and anxiety. I need to talk to someone about it. So what I do? It's usually my boss or C O, who I go to and just have conversation and we've had conversations to each other about how difficult it was for us and processing the emotions real time and processing before we talk to anyone, so that when we do talk to someone else, especially the person who's being affected by the lay off or the termination. Whatever it is, whatever that conversation is, you're not bringing your own emotions to it, Because that it feels like you're making it about you and it's hard for you. It's so so hard, but they need it to just be about them. So finding someone that you can talk to and going back to Mentor Ship. I've had a lot of conversations with my mentor Sasha, about how I almost left people operations, so like I can't do this. I can't be a part of someone's worst Or worst day scariest time of their life. How do I bring together the fact that I care so much and that I love what I do with this part that is heart breaking every single time and it's so hard every single time, And she said Well, if you're not doing it, who is like who's staying to do this and it has to be the people. I would hope that it's the people who care the most, and so dealing with the burn out that comes from that, especially if An extended period of time for stress for the company where you're may be aware of it for longer than than the rest of the company and you're processing it for longer, and to be completely candid and lay offs a lot of the time, H, R is one of the functions that's cut first. So also you're dealing with your own feelings of like My job isn't secure. What happens when the you know I've done all of this, Am I in the next round? Or you know, am I safe? And you're You're feeling all the emotions as well, So There's no good way to do it. There's no easy way to do it. But I have found for me personally that talking to people about it and hearing just a little validation of my own experience of my own feelings helps me go into that conversation and do the best that I can for the person that I'm talking to
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Yeah, because I think unfortunately H R ends up being kind of vilified. You know, in situations like that we see a lot of really angry people talking about how they're recently off. Made them feel. Um, and you know not to put everything back on the side of the employer, but you know we kind of forget how there's people that are having to conduct that and all of the anxiety that comes with it. Do you think that this kind of new culture and End of mass lay offs? How do you think it's impacting the kind of new generation of people who are just starting their careers in H. R? Have you seen kind of negative attrition because it's starting to look to them like this is what their job is going to be for the kind of foreseeable future.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
More so than that, I've seen people who can't enter H. R. because it's suddenly a field that no one is really hiring for and it's not in available
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Hm,
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
position that a lot of companies. I would say, the most attrition that I see is from people who have done this for so long and they just they can't take it one more time. It's the burn out and the emotional burn out from the people have been here for a long time, And they're say they're saying like I can't. I need to, just I need to be in a less involved role That's going to take less from me.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Yeah,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
On that on that like, Have you seen? and when I see a seen just in general at companies you might have observed or people that you know in H. r, like are there?
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Hm,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Are you know? I know. we're in a time where each our teams potentially are prioritizedar the first to kind of get cut or reduced. But are there people thinking about this like thinking about the mental health of these teams Implementing policies, you know, chief people, officers or teams, bringing in new policies that are thinking about the emotional and mental health of these teams like in the day to day and you know, helping people avoid that that burn out, or Having you know, learning programs or training programs or whatever it might be like, is anyone? I'm not saying we need the name names or anything. But have you observed that are people doing that well and again, knowing that this is probably unfortunately an area that gets cut right now in the world we're living in, but
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
let's face it, long term, we need to support these teams in that way, and we've seen over the past few years just mental health in work and in where culture has become. Thank God. So H, more, uh, less taboo, right and and
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Hm.
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
and openly accessible and seeing more services provided. But yeah, have you seen that Like are people thinking about that and doing that well, supporting the emotional and mental health of these teams?
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
I think a precious few are. That is something that oftentimes feels like a luxury. and when you're when you're struggling to keep your head above water, it's not necessarily. let's get innovative and let's try even more things. It's I am. I am making it and that's all I've got today. But when when we did see that was, I think before all of this, when the signs started coming of Okay, the economy is turning a little bit, And something might be happening. I don't know. and that's when we really. I think that's when we saw the most companies saying like how how can we bring psychological safety to our teams, And how can we bring candor and transparency to our teams, Because a lot of a lot of the burden is not having information Is saying something might be coming, and I have no idea whether it's a layoff There. It's just a performance based termination or anywhere in between. Not having information is terrifying. So alleviating the burden of things like that s the most that I've seen a lot of people do, And then I think we'll see a generation of people re entering or entering the work for us for the first time with an extreme lack of psychological safety where we'll then have to say Okay, these are people who've been affected by lay offs. All they're seeing in the news all there Then on, linked in our lay offs, they're coming in. Scared. what do we do from the start of their journey? Now that our time of absolute panic and terror is over and we're hiring again and we're growing again and we're bouncing back, so I think you see it a little bit at the beginning and you see a little bit at the end in the middle. I just think that most people are doing the best they can.
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Yeah, just hanging on. Well, I mean not not. you know. Definitely don't want this conversation to me. Come off is all doom and gloom. but you know I think that said. It is interesting how, And I've said this for a while. like during Covid, just over the past few years, Like It's so interesting to me how I linked in has become has cemented itself as like an actual, like social network in the sense of becoming like a daily. you know, a few years ago I wasn't checking linked in daily, But linked in has become this feed of content and sharing stories and building personal brands, and and building you know company brands, and so more and more people are being more candid and more transparent. Unlinked in about going through layoff or cos, preparing statements and saying hey, We just had to lay off seventeen percent of our team. Here is why, or people coming to vent, people coming to look for new jobs, looking for advice, et cetera And so I was over. I kind of ask you going to ask you like, what are people doing wrong when they're doing these lay offs and off boarding? I think we've seen enough of that. I think my question is like, now that we've seen all of that, What are the things? that? What are the things that we can do that are right During that kind of planning, and and the execution of that off boarding, and ultimately like, post off boarding. What should people be thinking about? You know the employes themselves. If you have any advice there, One of the things that team. so I guess the question is like, what are the things that teams should be doing and thinking about with off boarding today? And it doesn't need to be a mass lay off. I could just be in general. You know the offboarding process and then I think the second
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
M.
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
part of the question is like, If you personally have any advice for employes, like how to process that afterwards, and and what they should do? You know, any kind of personal opinion thoughts you have on that would be awesome.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah, so on the company's side, I think there are things that you can do before you have the conversation. Like I said, Knowledge is your main asset that you can share, and it's the scariest asset to share. It's the scariest thing to go in front of the company and say we're struggling financially. We've stopped growing and go through all that, especially if that's not already a part of your culture, but if that's something that's on the horizon, making that a part of your conversations, and making the team aware so they can start processing ahead of time, Because Worst, just the worst thing you can do for your employees is let this be a surprise, whether it's a lay off or whether it's an involuntary termination. For whatever reason, Most of the time it's a performance related reason or something like that, so start having transparent conversations even though they're scary and they don't feel good for you. It's not like I keep saying this, but it's just it needs to not be about you. It needs to be about the people who are on Your team who have dedicated their lives to their professional journeys to helping you and growing your company. And this is like something that I genuinely believe you owe to them. so On that side, having those transparent conversations and letting people know if something might be coming so that they can start thinking about ahead of time, And then if it does happen, offering resources, Hey, this wasn't the right fit for you. But if there's anyone in my network who's hiring, I would be happy to give you recommendation if you can do something That. if you can't, I, for whatever reason you can't. Hey, you're about to reenter the work for. Let's a resume. Coach is not a huge expense if there's no one on your team who can do it, but it's something that will make up really big difference in the lives of someone who's reentering the work force, so offering whatever resources that you can, saying like Okay, this is more than I wanted to invest may be financially, but I think we can do it if we make here if we do something like that, or if you can't have someone in turn You on your team, do it, and then the job boards, making sure they're aware of what job boards are available, especially in their areas of interest like there are some for environmental companies that are saving the world and be aware yourself and be a resource to them, and on the employees side, I have been a part of a lay off as well. I have been just on the other receiving end of this genuinely terrible situation. I think The best thing that I can say, the best thing for me was to take time to process and then move forward. Put together a plan put together aboard. Start networking with people. Start talking to people again, Even if you haven't reached out in a while, and it something you haven't necessarily talked to recently I have gotten See my first job. Actually, in people operations That trainual came from someone in my network I worked with previously who I re connected with, and I was laid off right before that job, and it end being the turning point of my career in the the reason I have this job to begin with. So it's so so hard, but try not to look at it like the end after you've processed. Let it be the end for a while. Then just move forward and it's so hard to do. and I know I can say that and it was not that easy for me to do it either, But you have to just move forward. Put yourself back out there again.
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Yeah, I mean one thing I will say I mentioned like dinner earlier is like it has been incredible to see the outpouring of like
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Yeah,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
support for people, and like, as soon as I see layoffs happening, I feel like I'm also seeing on the on the flip side. Hey, we're hiring right now, you know
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Hm,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
or hey, I've been through this before. Let me share services with you. There's a lot of new services and An and companies that are have been born out of like supporting this and helping people Their job search. And Um, so I think that that's that's amazing to see that and I agree with you in the sense of like it's not one size fit all, Like everyone should do what's right with them, but like being in the site for them, but being in this situation definitely taking that like. I think people shouldn't always feel pressure that you know. in the first twenty four hours you're kind of in like a frenzy and you're like, Let me start thinking about this and like, Oh my God, To read this at my resume, but I think kind of de compressing a little bit
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
M,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
and
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
hm,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
trying to kind of collect yourself and think about you know really what is next, what is writ and spending that time processing. It's like you know grief for a job and it's like you have to get yourself a little bit of time to process and grieve instead of just. I think the first instinct is to just kind of move on to the next thing and bottle it up, but I think it's so much better to to try to do that And then Yes, the other piece of like just networking like I found just having. I think so many people are also a little bit worried about. like how do I share this with my network? Um, maybe it's embarrassing. Maybe it's this, let or the other thing. I haven't been at this company that long, but I think reaching out you'll be surprised that like how helpful and how great it is to kind of network and start to reach out to people and people very clearly start to support you in an offer, Jobs and things like that. So that's like the positive side of this like I've
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
M,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
seen so much of that
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
hm,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
and I think that's so great.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah,
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Yeah,
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
so many
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
I
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
beautiful
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
think
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
humans.
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Yes, definitely,
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
The one like very small silver lining, if there is one at all to be found from all the lay off that are happening is like Ben was saying. I think it's helping lay off to be seen as less taboo because people are announcing it on, linked in and talking about it and just normalizing it. I think before people were a lot more apprehensive about sharing that they've been laid off. Like Ben said, They viewed it as embarrassing or they just didn't want to talk about it. Um, and I think now that people are saying that like even Google did lay offs you now places where
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Hm,
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
extremely smart and capable were capable people work. They're realizing that it really isn't about you. It's not because you were wrong more often than on. it's because the company did something wrong.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah, usually over hired. Usually that's what happens.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Yeah,
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
They over hired during a period of growth Without thinking What happens when this growth stops? You never want to think about when it stops like No, We're on a rocket up to the moon. It's never ending, but it probably will, and you have to make really careful decisions for your hiring plan when things are going really well, too, so that hopefully you don't end up in this situation. It's not always
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Yeah,
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
avoidable, but
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
I think that's a great point is like you know on the on the company's side as well, and listen like. I've been very not to be controversial, but I've been very open about this that too many people have had to do this because of things like that, And then you see situations where companies are laying people off and literally hours later announcing like record profits and things like that. So the normalization on the company's side is also a little scary and grow. But then you do have people that step forward and admit those things I saw I was reading recently that his name is escaping me, but the Co of zoom, at least in his messaging, admitted and said, We grew so rapidly During Covid, everyone was getting on Zoom that Yes, we over hired. Yes, we were irrational and how we expanded teams and things like that, and that has a a bad impact for people over time. And we're sorry that we have to do this. and just saying we're sorry Like
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Hm,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
that made a big impact, I think, Whereas you see some other companies where almost seem like a rational, or you know to talk about not being human centered, Like almost like algorithm was run to just like randomly, pick and choose who is being laid off and people are waking up in the morning and getting emaills, you know, or being disconnected from their services. So it's It's a crazy time, but I think normalization to your point like Veronica goes both ways like. I think it Great that people are more open to talk about it more open to seeking support, and more people are coming out and giving that support. But also I don't want it to be too normalized on the company's side where it's like
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
M.
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Oh, this is normal. Everyone's doing this. So you know, I do think that there's a lot of behind closed door conversations going on just saying like generally, like, because of the state in the market, you need to go and let's do a ten or fifteen percent head count. you know, reduction and head count, And so to everyone out there that's listening to this thinking about. Yeah, but but I think that's a really good point and I'm happy that we. We kind of brought that up. and M. Yeah, and I think I think we now have. We're at a point where we've heard so many like horror stories that like I want to hear more about. Like, how are we doing it right? You know, and how are people?
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
You know. What are the success stories? Let's hear that. let's hear the positive story
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
How are people stepping up who is stepping up? Yeah,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Exactly like exactly who's stepping up And you mentioned it earlier, but I feel like I know that you know, especially in startups Cos that have to go through this teams that have to go through this H. R teams. It's a very lonely place to be. you know what I
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Hm,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
mean, And so going through this the processing those emotions and dealing with this. It's not. It's not easy for anyone, and I think I think even you know it's the last thing. Probably a founder or c E wants to have to go. Yer, too is to let good people go And it's It's a hard decision and so lonely. It's a very lonely decision. So I think like that coming out with more positivity, sharing stories of like how we're supporting people would be would be really great. I really
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
like one of one of the ones I'll call out is, I think Jack, the Co of Lattice wrote, wrote a really good letter about kind of the rational of why they had to make this decision. How they did that, how they're going to support their teams moving forward, and also how they're going to think about Sustainable growth moving forward, and really revisit their process and their decision making for building teams and hiring teams and growing teams. So I thought that
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Yeah,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
was really
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
that's
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
great.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
That's like a funny irony that I feel like it's the smaller companies that have been showing more empathy when they're the ones that numbers wise were letting fewer people go. I also saw a lot of people commending hub spot for the way that they handled their lay offs.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
M,
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Um, and kind of all the coms that surrounded that, and the way they really went out of their ways to make sure that employes are rather former employees felt supported on their journeys going forward, And so I think the kind of lesson is that it's a really horrible situation, but there's still a right way to do it and to do it in a way that does right by both the employee and the employer.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
As much as much as humanly possible. I would agree
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Yeah,
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Hub Spot was one that stick out to me as well, Nd. I think the interesting thing about Hub Spot is they. just they were so well prepared, they had so many resources to dedicate, and I think often times that's not the case. but if you do, don't just say like hey, we can save this money. invest it back in the people who invested so much into you. And I think the people who are doing it really well, being smaller companies makes hope Sense. to me. It's why I want to stay at small companies is because you know it, Everyone, you're not letting go fifteen percent of the work for us who you don't know. you're letting go like five people who you know very intimately and have usually built something from the start with. And you have to feel it like there's no way to not feel that. there's no way to bring someone in who doesn't know them. It's you and it's it's you and it's them, And it's the people who've been in the room some many times together, having a cal Versation. Maybe you know for the last time in their journey with you as a company?
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Yeah, I'd love this. This is just an idea that. you know, I thought that came to mind an idea. It's not a new idea, but I'd love to see a shift towards, especially in a world where were more distributed where more remote were spending less on offices and things like that. Although you know of in offices coming that you know more and more every month, but I'd love to see more investment in people, less investment in like perks and benefits
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
M,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
in this
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
hm,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
thinly veiled like culture That Calling, I think like development of people, support of people, And it's no surprise to me, really, that hub spot did this well because I think it's always been clear that they're company that really invest in their people. There are a lot of lifers that hub spot and people that have had career growth and education because they really support those teams as much as possible versus companies that you hear about are like these fun places to work and have all these great perks and they do these cultural things And then that's the same company that you later hear about, you know, brought two hundred people On a zoom call and cut their their lap tops off. and just you said good bye to them. So I think investing in your people and not your perks. moving forward is like a big big movement. I'd like to see more of.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Yea, I think, especially in in the U. S, where we unfortunately don't have the laws in place that European or other countries have, where you would have to give the employees several months of severance if you're saving that money on the severance that you would have to give the Us. employ if they were in another country. Why not use that budget on the kind of post, lay off care that we've been talking about and actually giving them those resources rather than viewing it as an opportunity To save as much on that person as you can.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah, it's tough to do when you're in the financial position that you have to be letting people go to say. hey, We're going to actually dedicate more resources to you at the end of your journey Here. it's a tough decision to make, but I think there's there's an amount of integrity that I would hope to see, especially at the exact level, like for example, the time that I was played off from a started up. It was because almost everyone was layed off. It was. no, I think not Done perfectly. Not that there the perfect way to do it, but the thing that really stuck out to me and that to this day so much further into my journey still sticks out to me at our co, personally funded severance. for every single person who was laid off the company couldn't afford it. There just wasn't We weren't in a position to do that, and he personally did because he said it was people. It was all of us that he knew so well, and like, I'm not going to leave you in that position. We can Afford it, but I can, And that's I don't think everyone's in that position, but I do think there's even if the company can't afford it. There's ways there's ways so you can just do a little better to take care of people. You just have to get creative and not say, Take the easy way out. I would guess I would say
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Yeah,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Yeah,
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
I worked
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Absolutely
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
at a start up where we were told in I think December, January that we had run away until the summer time, and at that time, unless there was some kind of miracle, everyone was going to have to leave, and I appreciated that we were given six months of notice, if not a little bit more to find new jobs, And everybody had a new new job by then, so nobody was really left high and dry. It was like the most
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
No.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
ideal way, Do it.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah, and I
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Well,
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
can't imagine that was an easy conversation to have six months beforehand. but I think as as I went on the receiving, and having that information made all the difference.
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Sorry I cut in there, but you know, just to shift gears a little bit, I'm looking at. You know how much time we're spending talking here, but going to shift ears. You know, we talk a lot about here at all, where we talk a lot about different ways of working, And you know we focused a lot on the employe experience being remote in office hybrid. Can you tell us? You know we ask everyone these questions around. You know what is your favorite way to work, and Maybe just share some thoughts on us, or like where you see wore culture going in the next one. five, ten years. Uh, just share, you know, share what your your experience s a bit. You know how you work, how you work with your your team and and where you'd like to see that go. Maybe,
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah, I work in Arizona. My company is based in San Francisco, so I work entirely remotely. Uh, it's sort of my preference. It's not my preference. If I didn't get to talk to anyone that day, I can't go a day where I don't talk to anyone, and I know that sounds so small and trivial, but it makes a big difference to me even just having one quick slow conversation or exchanging ships Creek gifts or something
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Uh,
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
where
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
huh,
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
it brightens up my day and I've had human interaction, so I think What we've seen from the past few years is that there is so many ways to have human interaction without being in a room with other humans, But it's harder and it's harder to have genuine conversations And we've seen this a few times where still three years in, we're starting talking and someone else is is starting talking at the same time, because you can't see all of the ques that you can see when you're in person. So there are some things that are a little plunkher, that will remain a little flunkher. I don't think this is going away. I think you're going to have companies who go back to him Traditional model where you're in the office because it's so much harder to create connections if you're not in person together. and then you're going to have people who lean in the other way and say we're actually going to make this even more flexible. If you want to leave the country, You can. If you want to work from me, go for a few months you can. But we're going to find time to be in person. I think what we've seen is that there's not a way to do it without coming together sometimes, so off sites are just flying peop Into the office for a few days or something like that, but I think we'll likely see a kind of a split between those two.
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Yeah, I mean as I could talk about this all. but is someone that's worked remote? You know for five years? I, I definitely agree that having that interaction it doesn't need to be like jumping on a zoom all the time. It can be a slack. A text. I honestly like phone calls, like just talking on the phone. I like going for a walk and some meetings. I schedule like, Yes, Yeah, I have to be at my computer, Lo, because maybe we're sharing something or looking at something. but any time I can do like one on one or sometin, And just get like moving in. Find that I'm not like sitting at my desk for six hours straight in my like cave back here.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Uh, uh,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
That really helps. And then there's the things that are like great in person. You know what I mean, And it's nice to connect with people and it's great to White Board and it's great to be creative and be in person. But I think like I don't know. I just don't see us. I've dealt with people on every end of the spectrum in terms of We need people to be in office like I work best in office. I want to see people. I don't believe that people are being, you know, and I don't think anyone has proven to me until someone proves to me with real hard data that people sitting at home working are really truly less productive and they haven't given them the right tools because I've seen that situation too right where it's like the remote people are ssort of chastised for being remote, but they've never been given the right tools. Meetings aren't set the right way. People ignore time zone changes and things like that, And it's like you can't like show me the data once you set the team up for success, right, um, but that's great. I really. I really appreciate you sharing that with us. I think this. I think this conversation. like I said earlier it was. It's a hard one to have, but I just want us to. And and I don't think likenormalize is the right word. We don't want to normalizeoffboarding, but we want to normalize. Having better, you know, process and relationships with teams and treating people the right way and just being, Let's just be good people right like let's be good
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Yeah,
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
humans.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Let's do it now. I think that's I think That is the crux of this conversation and most of my conversations that I have with you two lovely people are just talking about why, why aren't more people acting like a human being? And how do we get them to do that? And I want to normalize that conversation as much as possible.
Ben Kessler (allwhere):
Absolutely well, thanks so much for your time. We really appreciate that this was awesome.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Thank
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
Thank
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
you,
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
you.
Veronika Kelemen (allwhere):
Tory.
Tori Armendariz (ReadMe):
This was so fun.