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Stories of Wonder platforms and celebrates the real impact Deakin students, alumni, researchers and staff are making in the world, right now.
Deakin University CRICOS Provider Code: 00113B. TEQSA Provider ID PRV12124
Anna Charalambous is a Deakin alum
and a film producer.
Her passion for storytelling
has led her to work on everything
from student films to documentaries
shown at South by Southwest.
In this episode,
Anna tells us about her early days
studying film, why she was petrified
to pick up a film camera,
and how she found her way to producing
stories that can change people's lives.
From the lands of the
Wurundjeri people,
this is Stories of Wonder.
Anna Charalambous,
welcome to "Stories of Wonder."
- Thank you for having me. Hello.
- Pleasure.
Okay, so first up,
tell us a little bit about
your journey into film and TV.
Why did you choose to study
it in the first place?
- I feel like it's like
a controversial answer,
and I'm conscious of where I'm sitting
on a Deakin podcast, but I-
- Okay, are we ready? I think we're ready.
Buckle up.
- It's not controversial
at all.
I have no idea why to be honest.
I did media in year 12
and I remember being like,
'cause I did, I went straight
outta school into uni,
and I really enjoyed media.
I did like my first little
short film at school.
And then I think I just threw in a bunch
of like media comms story things
into my uni selection.
- Like preferences.
- Preferences. There you go.
- Yeah.
- And then I just got back,
I was like, "Okay, cool.
I'm gonna do film and
TV at Deakin, I guess."
And then it was like,
okay, well just try that
because you just like,
I feel like you finish,
unless you've got a really clear idea
of like what you want to do.
That time after high school
and then into uni is like,
I remember that break being like
the longest break of my life.
- Yep, yep. Same.
- And you've just done, yeah,
you've just done this like
intensive period of like exams.
You've gone to school,
you've just like tried.
You're like, okay, I guess I've gotta
figure out who I am now.
Oh and I've gotta select a degree
and choose my career path.
- Totally.
And you've gone to school
without much choice
about things for most
of your conscious life
at that point.
- Entire life.
And then all of a sudden
it's like, make a choice.
- Here you go, decide.
- Choose.
- Worked out for me though.
So I am grateful for that at the moment.
- Well, yeah.
I mean, so how did it feel
stepping into like the studios
and the facilities at
Deakin for the first time?
- Yeah, I think the first
year at Deakin I was like,
just so honestly, so overwhelmed.
Like, I reckon my first day I got here,
couldn't find the building and went home.
(group laughing)
I literally was like-
- And that is a probably a very,
very common thing at Deakin.
- And I'm gonna be honest.
Yeah, it was like I was overwhelmed.
I didn't know anyone else
that was coming to Deakin,
like, and I was like, I can do it.
Like, I'm confident, I
can get myself around.
But then I came here and I was like,
"Whoa, what is all of this?"
So yeah, I think that
the first like for me
was quite jarring, I think into subjects.
And then I finally found
the building and yeah
got into my first few
subjects and was like,
okay, this is...
And the kind of concept
of independent learning
I think was a challenge for me initially
'cause I was so not used to it.
- Yeah.
- But yeah, I felt quite overwhelmed
and I was also in classes
with people that were like,
"Yes, I have a red camera
and I use it all the time."
And I'm like, "Pardon?
- Wow!
What do you mean?"
I was like, I did the subject at school.
- Hmm.
- So I definitely felt
like when I came into uni there were
people that like, were filmmakers
and then I was like, I'm
going into a film degree
and we'll just see what happens.
- Yeah.
And so did you have to
in that first semester,
like touch the equipment,
play around with the cameras,
like get into it?
- Yeah, I felt like I was
definitely catching up
and there were people like in the class.
I mean, and I think that, I
mean, that's everywhere, right?
There's people that know
things a lot more than you do
and then you're just catching up.
But I think this was the
first time where I was like,
whoa, there's like quite
a different spread here.
'Cause like at school
you're like always kind
of chugging along at the same pace
as the people besides you.
- Yeah.
- But then you come into this thing
where everyone has their interests.
There are like older
students in your class
who've maybe done a whole other degree
and are now doing their second degree,
when you're like, "I'm 18." (laughs)
- Yeah.
- So yeah, I think it was yeah
a very big mix of overwhelm.
And then started to like
kind of getting the swing of things.
I was like, okay, cool.
This is how you coil.
I remember literally
being outside the building
and learning how to coil a
cable for the first time.
I have like such a memory
of us all standing there
throwing yellow leads
and being like, "Over,
under, over, under."
- Yes.
- So I think I really
enjoyed that it was like
a physical degree and I was
like learning how to make stuff
and learning how to coil a cable
and learning how I think,
oh, this is with Liz
and we'll probably talk about
Liz a lot on this podcast.
Liz Bulge.
- Liz, if you're listening.
- Shout out Liz.
She did the first sort of writing
with the camera subject that we did.
And I put an SD card in the camera
and I like, there's a little
lock on the side of an SD card.
Didn't know that.
I was like, "Liz, it's not,
I just filmed some stuff and
I don't know, it's gone."
And Liz was like.
- Oh no.
- "So remember at the start of the term
we talked about the lock?"
And I was like, got it, got it.
Unlock, unlock.
(group laughing)
But it was really cool I
think, for me to have things.
Right?
I wasn't like, okay, cool,
so then you clip this and clip that.
I had to like learn stuff physically.
- Yeah.
- And so that's why
I feel like when I started touching stuff
and getting into that
space, I sort of was like,
okay, cool I can get it.
I can figure it out.
- Yeah. Liz (indistinct).
- Liz (indistinct).
- Is gonna be the patron
saint of this episode.
- Absolutely. We should
probably have bought a little.
- Yeah, I can put a picture up there.
- Yeah.
- Well, so, how long did it take?
'Cause it sounds like you didn't even know
whether you wanted to be a
filmmaker or anything like that.
How long did it take in
doing the course to sort
of figure out that you
might wanna be a producer?
- Okay. Don't say it like that.
(group laughing)
I feel like it's that
kind of stigma that we get
that people don't wanna be producers.
I definitely sort of in
the second year started,
I think we did our TV subject
and we did, we sort of started
pairing off into groups
and sort of having a bit more independence
in creating projects together.
And then, yeah, I think
when you start kind
of being put in groups and you
start doing like group work
and stuff, like, there's always the bad
side of group work, right?
Which you learn, but you
also learn about like trying
to find your own space
and like, okay, cool.
I think I like this stuff.
I think I like that stuff.
So I think when we started
doing those in second year,
we did our TV unit
and I think we did our documentary unit
for the first time as well,
when I had a really great team.
I remember in that,
what was the doc about?
Oh, well, we'll come back to that.
But yeah, I had a really great team
in my second year subjects
that I think set a really
good foundation of like,
okay, this could be something
I want to pursue as...
I don't even think you do a film degree
thinking about employment.
I think you don't do that. (laughs)
- Mm-hm.
- But at least thought, even
if there's just a passion,
I like this and it's great.
And I always think I really
like storytelling. I talk a lot.
I really like talking to people
and communicating with people.
So I think that I was like, okay, maybe
that's why I wanted to be a
filmmaker or like maybe I wanted
to work in this field is
'cause I really like talking
and telling and I think there's
something really special
in storytelling.
And I think my version of that is the,
what do they call it?
The silver screen.
- Mm-hm.
- Yeah.
- Hmm.
So big question for you, Anna.
- Yes.
- What is a producer?
- Oh God.
- And why is it an important role
in a film, in a production?
- Yeah, I think it's, I always
sort of do this like hand,
I mean maybe it's 'cause just I'm ethnic
and I just talk in my hands all the time,
but I sort of think about a
producer sort of as like this
and then that.
So you're sort of like-
- Okay, do we get that?
- Do you want me to do it again for you?
- We got the wide, yeah.
- This and then the push.
(group laughing)
The push is important, right?
- Yeah.
- I think,
and I think everyone,
there's always different versions, right?
There's people are different
types of producing.
I think I feel like I'm quite
a creatively led producer,
so I feel like what I'm
making really matters.
But I think if you're sort of, yeah,
you're part of a leading team on a project
and this is your ship
and you've gotta sort of
make sure it keeps moving.
And I think that you as a
producer yeah, you facilitate,
you coordinate and you
move things forward.
And I think a lot of the
times you are potentially one
of the first few people to join a project
and you are very often the last one.
You know, obviously
there was very different
circumstances for producing,
but I'd say you're yeah,
sort of the project manager, if you will,
at the very top level
kind of trying to start it
and finish it and then
everything that comes in between.
- Right.
And then within all of that,
it sounds like there's like a million
different sort of jobs that you have to do
depending on what phase
you're in.
- Yeah.
- From how you interact
with people and encourage
and push people to how you organise-
- Oh yeah.
Things and how
they're gonna get done to
budgets and things like that.
- Yeah.
- Like give us a little bit of a rundown
of your sort of, I don't know,
a few days within a production.
- Yeah.
- Of what a producer would be doing.
- Yeah and I think it scales, right?
Like the bigger the project,
the more sort of teams
you can facilitate with.
But I think like from a sort of uni level
to like an independent level,
you are doing a lot of things.
Like we always call it the email factory,
like me and my laptop, just sitting there
fighting against the
world, punching out emails
or writing call sheets
or drafting spreadsheets.
But essentially yeah,
you are sort of managing,
you are trying to find finance,
you're trying to figure out,
'cause everyone's got great ideas,
but then it's like, how
do you take the idea
and make it actually happen?
Like it's great to have ideas.
We always need ideas, people,
but we also need ideas
people that can go, okay,
but that idea would work
with this amount of money.
And I think if the idea doesn't
come with a pocket of money,
'cause that's awesome.
When it's like, great, I've had this idea
and I've got this budget, let's make it.
And then the producer would sort of
come in and go, okay, cool.
So this is how I think
we'll use the money.
This is how we engage
these people to do that.
And then this is how we
get it from idea with money
to final product.
- Mm.
- So yeah,
I think it's a lot of communicating,
a lot of emailing, a lot of...
You're coordinating,
you're trying to like bring
a lot of people together.
You're trying to unite a
lot of people on one thing
and kind of bring the team together
and keep the team moving efficiently
and try and also see when
the team is breaking down
and go, okay, cool.
So there's challenges here.
How do we fix that? Do
we bring people back in?
Do we look to replace people?
How do we keep this thing moving?
So it's the collection,
but it's also the push to the finish line.
- Mm.
- And sometimes that finish line is like
years and years away.
Like you just...
- Yeah.
- You just, yeah.
There's just gotta be something in you.
I think a producer just has to have
that innate ability to keep going.
- Yeah.
- You've just
gotta keep going.
- Wow.
So I guess on that then,
what are the qualities that
you've seen in your experience
that make a good producer?
- Yeah, I mean that's
quite a big question.
- Yeah.
- I don't wanna be like
labelling producers everywhere.
But I feel like communication
is like super important
in film anywhere, right?
- MM-hm.
- And you have to
be able to communicate,
communicate your idea,
communicate like every
and quite quickly as well.
You've always gotta be like, okay, cool,
I need to get this across and then this
so that somebody else can take it
and take what you wanted
and make it happen.
- Mm.
- I think project like time management,
people management is really important.
Financing.
And I think, yeah, I think ultimately
it's just a work ethic, right?
You just gotta...
'Cause sometimes it's real hard
and sometimes you're doing, like,
especially on like the smaller projects,
which is mostly how we all start.
- Mm-hm.
- You are the one there
first turning everything on.
You know, if you don't have a runner
or a production assistant,
you are making people coffee.
You're keeping people happy
and you're the person at
the end of the day going,
"Okay, thanks everybody, see
you again in the morning."
Alright, I'll start transferring data.
Like, you are often the sort of, yeah,
I guess I don't wanna say backbone
'cause there's so many
backbones in a project, but-
- Yeah, you're of the
engines by the sound of it
that really keeps the
whole project running.
- Totally.
- Yeah.
- It's crazy. Why do we do it?
- Well, yeah, I mean,
like producing sounds
like a very full on role.
What drives you and is it sustainable?
- Self-reflection.
Absolutely. I mean, I love it, right?
I think it is, I dunno
whether it's the challenge
of like seeing something and going,
"I reckon, I reckon we can do that."
And then being just like crazy
enough to be like, let's go.
We can keep going. We can do it.
Let's go, come on.
What if we do, come on, let's keep going.
I do always love the,
while it's challenging
to be on a project for six
years, five years, four years,
there's something really special
about seeing it at the end.
- Mm-hm.
- Being like, I remember when this was
a piece of a Word document
that came in and said,
this character, this person, this, that.
- Yeah.
- And then you're like,
look at it, we did it.
- Yeah.
- And seeing it change.
So I think that there's just something
so satisfying in that process.
- Yeah.
- I also really love fixing problems.
I'm like something goes wrong.
Even like with my friends, I'm
like, "All right, let's go.
What are we doing? How are we fixing it?"
Like, let's go.
So I love a bit of problem solving
and I think it's just so much of that,
of being like, okay, no money.
All right, how are we
gonna do it this time?
How are we figuring it out?
So I think I love it.
And I love storytelling.
I don't think, I'm definitely
good at some things
and not good at others.
Like, do not gimme a camera.
I do not wanna see it.
I do not wanna touch it.
You pick the lens, I don't care.
Go. It scares me.
But and I can appreciate
the incredible work
that people do in the team.
But I think, yeah, and I just love,
yeah, I love reading something
and then seeing the final thing
and be like, okay, cool.
And watching people then
take it like watching,
a director or a writer or
even like a costume designer
being like, I read it like this.
And I'm like, "Whoa, I
didn't read it like that."
- Yeah.
- "I didn't see flowers."
Like, where were you?
How are you seeing that?
And I think that's one of
the really special things
about, yeah, being able to create stuff,
but in a collaborative process is that
you just see everyone's
version of something.
And that's why I think film is so...
Every time I watch a film, I'm like,
"Oh, who had that idea?"
Like, why did that come through?
And like, who was managing all the extras?
I cannot watch a big crowded
scene without being like,
who was facilitating that?
- Oh my goodness.
Yeah, having done extras work in the past
or being on a set with
it, it's like, yeah-
- It's hardcore.
- Yeah, yeah.
- And then you're always like,
'cause I think there's a lot of like CGI
involved in the bigger budget stuff.
So you're like, okay, cool.
They're all just like,
they've drawn them in later.
But when there's like,
and everyone's moving
and I'm like, and then I
love trying to spot the extra
that's like double appeared
because he's gone the wrong way
and they've cut used another (indistinct).
And I'm like, "There he
is. Where's the jacket?"
- Yeah.
- So it really just does
get into your everyday life
and ruin movies forever, probably.
(group laughing)
But it's great.
- And that's so beautiful
about what you say as well,
like, seeing a project
right at the very end
when you're at the
release stage or it's out
and it's in the world or whatever it is.
And you are like, I
remember this is an email.
- Yeah. Yeah.
- I remember this big-
- Fully someone telling
me this had a body.
- This fully grown thing
as a little message.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- And then it's rolled and
we've made people sit through it
for 80 minutes or 90 minutes.
- Yeah. And they hated it.
- They hate it. Well, yeah.
And then people have the
audacity to hate something.
(group laughing)
But it's, yeah.
I think the whole thing
is it's quite cool.
I think it's such and I
think with documentaries
and even like scripted stuff,
you get such an interesting
look into the world.
Like with docos, you
go into people's lives
and they tell you all these stories
and a lot of the times
it's not the full stories
that people are seeing when
they're watching something.
There's all those other little things
where you're like, "Oh, wow."
They told us that we were
interviewing them for two hours
and 20 minutes made the final,
even max like 10 minutes is on screen.
That whole other hour and
50 minutes is just full of
someone else's perspective
on life, whatever.
And it's such a privileged
position to be in,
to hear people telling
new stories all the time.
Because it's just like...
And then you remember
it and you take it on
and when things are hard, you're like,
"God, remember this story,
I remember hearing that
and being in this part of the world
and being like, I'm good."
Like if this is the hardest
thing I have to do, I'm fine.
- Yeah.
- So and then there's beautiful things.
You hear hilarious stories
or you get stuck in ridiculous
situations where you're like,
oh, cool, so today I'm in Africa
and I'm gonna be in Guatemala next week.
- Well, yeah.
- You know what I mean.
- On that.
Tell me about some of these problems
that you've had to solve on productions
where you've been in
a just seemingly like,
oh my goodness, how are we gonna get out
of this one kind of thing?
- God, wonder-
- But you've had to
figure it out and move forward.
- I'm just trying to think
about what I can say.
- Which one.
(group laughing)
- And not get in trouble for,
but I feel like there's always,
everyone will have a story
and yeah, there's so many projects
that things go wrong all the time.
So I think it's just how you manage them.
But I'm just trying to think what was the.
Yeah, I mean, so we did the
"Spreadsheet Champions,"
which I'm sure we'll talk about very soon.
- Yeah, never heard of that one.
- Yeah, so we were making,
we were filming a documentary
and it was a two person crew.
So it was literally me
and then the director who
was also had the camera
on her shoulder the whole time, so.
- Wow.
- Tiny, tiny.
When you talk about no
resources, it's like,
we want to do this, we gotta go.
Like, this is it. We gotta do it.
And I think we took like
18 international flights
in six weeks or something.
Wild.
- Oh my goodness.
- Yes.
- In six weeks.
- Yeah. So we were
bouncing around the world.
And I mean, nothing like,
lots of things went wrong,
but all of the big
important things went right.
So that was for me, I just remember,
so we flew like Australia,
Vietnam bounced around Vietnam,
Cameroon, Greece, Guatemala, the US,
bounced around the US came back home.
And so we did all of that
mid-summer, peak Euro summer,
flying from continents.
And then we landed back in Melbourne.
And as both of our suitcases came out,
we both turned to each other.
We're like, "Do you know
our suitcases have made it
the whole time we've
been on all these flights
and our suitcases are here."
So it was just like-
- Wow.
- This isn't an answer
to your question at all,
but it was like things going right
where I was like, we were
meant to do this, right?
- Yeah.
- Like nothing got lost.
- Yeah.
- Everything made it.
- Yeah.
- That's unheard of.
- Wow.
But that's the opposite
of the question I asked.
- Absolutely opposite.
- Yeah.
- So things go right.
- That's interesting still.
- Things go right.
- Yeah. Yeah.
There you go. There
you have it, producing.
Everything goes right all the time.
- It's all good.
Just leave it to the universe.
No, we've had, yeah, so
many things go wrong.
Like, actors don't turn
up and, yeah actually,
I'm just gonna blame actors
because that's, yeah.
- Okay.
- Yeah.
Actors (indistinct).
No, I'm absolutely kidding.
People get locations wrong.
I've sent like wrong release,
like wrong call sheets out
with wrong times
and people are turning
up at the wrong time.
'Cause it's just like one tiny number
and you're like, oh yeah,
I wrote 17 instead of 15.
- With an instant snowball effect.
- Yeah. And it's just knocked
everything out of play.
- Mm.
- And then you've gotta
be sitting there calling
and calling and calling
like, sorry, sorry, sorry.
I meant five, I meant five,
not three, sorry, sorry.
Or whatever it was.
You accidentally erase.
You've filmed an interview for a whole day
and your SD card breaks.
How good's that? I think
it was tech medics.
- Oh we getting, we're saving
this interview, aren't we?
Yeah.
- How many times are we back up here?
- Yeah.
- Three backups.
That's what we do.
(group laughing)
But yeah, like you just,
you've sitting there
filming for a whole day
and you take the card out,
you put the card in to wrangle
it and it's like, error.
And I'm like, "Oh, cool."
And that's like, no one could have,
like, it's no one's fault.
The card just,
'cause SD cards just
apparently sometimes corrupt.
- Yeah.
- So you're like, okay, cool.
- Unless someone didn't close the...
(group laughing)
- I wasn't involved.
- Oh. Oh.
Anna strikes again.
- They obviously didn't do
writing on the camera with Liz.
But Yeah, you just have to,
and I think my housemate, so
she's a production coordinator
and she tells this brilliant story about
how she had moths in all the
clothes one day for a project.
Like it was like a big show,
I can't remember the show.
And there was just moths in the clothes
and it was her job to fix it.
And she was like, how do I
deal with the entire costume
department has moths all over them.
And so she organised an
industrial sized freezer
to be dropped off because
apparently moths...
- Oh.
- This might be not,
moths die when it's cold.
And then they just froze the moths out.
- Wow.
- How do you tell people that
that's what you did at work?
You organised an industrial freezer
to freeze moths out of clothes
so they didn't have to replace a whole
wardrobe for a whole TV show.
- Wow.
- Is that not crazy?
- It's pretty cool that
they figured that out.
- She's hardcore, she's
very, very good at her job.
But it's all sorts of versions of that.
Like your card's corrupt,
people don't turn up.
You've made mistakes, gear
gets sent to the wrong place,
data gets wiped, you have to reshoot.
You know you lose budget
because someone miscalculates a shoot day
and you're accidentally over.
Like, it's sometimes the
most boring of problems,
but you're like, "Oh,
yep, I have to fix this."
Like, we've accidentally
spent an extra 10%
on our crew because we
miscalculated the hours.
We've just lost 10% of our contingency,
which we were holding for music.
We can't get music.
Or, I had a really great,
I don't know if I can,
I'm not gonna specify
who the artist was,
but I think we had a really
good music clearance.
I had a big music
clearance win where like,
we were in the edit of a project
and we're like late in delivering.
And then all of a sudden
the director was like,
"Wouldn't it be great if we
used this artist in this scene?"
And we had like three weeks to lock.
This artist was like, one of huge budget,
documentary sized budget.
So nothing wild.
We had a little bit held for music
and the kind of clearance process
for this artist is famously,
famously very hard.
And I remember being like, all right,
well I'm gonna try everything I've got.
And I weaselled my way through
and found the estate lawyer
who manages the estate,
found his phone number.
He was American.
- Mm-hm.
- Just called him one
afternoon and was like,
"Hi, so I'm from Australia
and we're making a doco
and we just wanna talk about clearance."
And he was like, "Oh yeah, I
think I saw an email from you."
Like, and then we got it.
Because he was just like trying
to find the way into the room.
And then within like a week
and a half we had clearance for this thing
that famously takes like years,
some people like,
'cause I mean the context
is important for this one
to really like win the win.
But famously it's a very,
very hard thing to clear,
but you just sort of have
to find ways around it.
- Yeah.
- And find the person to talk to
and find the way into the room.
- Yeah.
- Or into the conversation
a lot of the times
- That just, yeah, again,
it speaks to the drive
that you need to just that inde...
Nope, nope. We're cutting this out.
You said the word before, indefatigable.
- Did I say it?
- Drive?
Did I get it?
- You gotta just keep going.
- Yeah.
- Yeah. I think ultimately
it's always that, right?
It's always that.
Like I want this, we want
this, we have to get it done.
If we don't have money,
it's gonna take time.
If we don't have time, alright,
let's just throw some money at it.
If you don't have either,
you just gotta find the person to talk to.
And ultimately it's always that, right?
It's always being like,
'cause I'll just, I love
a little LinkedIn stalk.
Like I'll just sit there and
go into a businesses like,
and even if it's like Sony or like NASA,
I'm like, "Okay, who will
I find in NASA's staff
that will help me?"
And then you just send out those emails
and then you just sort
of, I mean, I just guess.
You're just like, okay, I think,
oh yeah, I like the way this person,
I can see something in the background.
Okay. I'll just angle it that way.
And then you're sending
about 50 emails out.
But if you get two back and it wins,
it wins.
- Yeah, exactly.
- Yeah.
- So yeah, it's this like persistence of,
and this inability to hear the word, no.
I'm gonna, I'll try
anyway. I'll try again.
Okay, I'll try one more time.
And then the third time it
works and then I'm like, cool,
validated, I'll keep going.
(group laughing)
- So how did you sort of
finish uni and break into,
or were you already working
during uni on projects?
On actual film sets?
- Yeah. What was my end of uni life like?
I think, so because first
year freaked me out, honestly,
I didn't do, I think when
I was at uni I was like,
if I can stay like in this
film building, I'll be fine.
I like, I know where everything is.
So I didn't do a lot of electives.
So I had like all these subjects
units I had to complete.
- Just sort of banking up.
- Yeah. And I was like, ah,
it'll work out. (laughs)
So I sort of finished my
like, film degree sort
of within the three years of
finishing the film degree.
But then had I think like a
two or four subjects left.
- Yeah.
- And I just was like, oh goodness,
how am I gonna go back and do those?
So I think I finished my third
year 'cause you do a project
and I am not sure if it's still,
I'm assuming it's like that too.
You do your final year film
and I produced that one.
And that was when I
really got talking to Liz
and because Liz was our
mentor for all the producers.
And Liz was like "You're
pretty good at this.
Like, if you take this
seriously, like this could
be your thing."
Like it's really important to have,
I can't remember what
specifically Liz said,
but it worked obviously.
But really kind of took me aside
and was like, this is real.
Like this is a real career
path. You could do it.
It's gonna be really hard,
but "Did you enjoy it?"
And I was like, "Yeah,
I actually really did like the process
of bringing this thing into life."
So, and then Donna Mcrae
who's also a lecturer at Deakin
had a film that she was
making at the end of,
it was almost like we
finished our third year film
and then she was directing, sorry,
this film that Liz was producing.
- Ah. So cool.
- And So it, like
it really just worked out.
- Yeah. Yeah.
- And which was amazing,
they selected some students to come
and work on the project.
So that was sort of, I came out of it,
finished my third year subject
and then went straight
onto a feature film,
which is pretty epic.
Like to have gotten that.
- Wow.
- And then I was working, I
think I was the second AD,
so second assistant
director working with Liz.
And it was really small.
There was probably a
crew of like 15 of us.
It was definitely not that sort of size
that you kind of slot
into these crazy roles
where your job is to do this one thing
and do this one thing for 10 hours.
- Mm-hm.
- So I was like helping
Liz draught call sheet.
I mean that's the second AD's job.
But I was drafting call sheets with Liz,
but then I was also
helping with all the sort
of producing elements that she,
'cause Liz was first
editing and producing,
which is often the way when
you're working on small
independent stuff, you've
got a lot of hats on.
So I did that
and I was like, okay,
nah, I really enjoy this.
I love being in the
production office. I love it.
I love the kind of pace and
the speed and the doing.
So then after that I then just sort of,
you meet people on set
and then they say, "Oh,
hey, we need someone to run
and be an assistant on this job."
I'm like, all right, cool.
And I just sort of
committed to that for then
kind of the end of that year.
And then just kept working
and finding my space
in other projects I was production
assisting, running, like,
and then I went into sort of
the assistant directing space,
which is sort of the facilitating the day.
So the assistant director's the one,
the first AD is running the day.
They're the person that come in
and they've organised your schedule
and they're telling you what you're doing
when you're doing it.
- Mm-hm.
- Like, all right, everybody get ready.
Like that's the voice you are
hearing all day is your AD.
So then I was doing that sort of stuff,
which taught me how to schedule,
which taught me how to run a day,
which taught me how to like
the kind of magic of the set,
like kind of facilitating it all.
And I was like, came back and I was like,
"God, I don't think I can
do this one full time."
Like it is so much.
So then I sort of was
like, I think the producing
is the thing for me that's calling.
So then yeah, just sort
of started producing
small shorts with my friends
that I had met at uni
and through, you find your space,
I think like you start
working in the industry
and you are like, okay, cool.
Like there, they got my
jokes or like, they got this
and then we just started
making small stuff
so we could get into the
habit of it for like no money.
And then eventually
you just sort of, yeah,
like I got offered a job on "2040,"
which is a feature
documentary as an impact co...
What was my job, impact coordinator.
- Mm-hm.
- Which then ultimately led me
to working at Good Thing Productions
as a assistant producer.
- Mm-hm.
- Which was like
the proper first step.
- Right. Yeah.
And so it just sounds like
those initial opportunities
that you got through uni,
like the connections you made at uni
and impressing your teachers, really.
- Yeah. Liz liked me.
- Yeah.
- It was like, I actually
think my biggest achievement.
Liz is so scary.
I was like, "Liz likes me."
(group laughing)
- Wouldn't know.
- Yes. Yeah.
- But yeah,
you were able to create
that sort of network effect,
like another opportunity
here, a connection over there,
another, and all of a sudden you've got
a few credits in different roles.
- Totally.
- And a whole bunch
of experience to draw on.
- Yeah.
- Do you think that uni
like the course actually
prepared you for being thrown
in to those situations?
- I think the concept
of going to university
probably helped me
because I think I had the same like level
of like, ba what am I doing here?
- Yeah. But like, you've
gotta figure it out.
- But and then, well same thing, right?
You've gotta figure it out.
Like people will offer you a job
and you've just gotta say yes
and you've just gotta commit.
- Mm.
- And then I think it definitely helped,
like I think doing a degree
and then going to work in a field,
there's so much you don't
know until you start doing it.
Like there's no way that
it can mirror it perfectly.
'Cause like how could you?
But I think it definitely
taught me the kind of,
it kept me working through
the kind of communication
and collaboration stuff.
It's like fundamental
at the end of the day.
- Yeah.
- If you can't communicate
and you can't work with other people,
film's gonna be quite hard for you.
So I think, and that's something
you learn at university.
I'd say in whatever degree you're doing,
you always learn.
Okay group work is hard
when someone doesn't do
pull their weight or,
so you ultimately do that.
And I think the pressure of like having
to do something in a semester
and make a film in a semester
is kind of the intensity of the industry.
Like, obviously not to
scale, but you gotta go,
you gotta like decide
this is when you shoot,
this is the blocks, this is the gig.
Yep. Go.
And I think like ultimately
a lot of the times until,
and if we ever break
into the sort of money
where we can do whatever we want,
you are always having to fit
within, you gotta make it work.
And I think that was really
great within that sort of,
there's the structure of the
sort of final year project,
but at the end of the day,
how do you make that work for you?
And you sort of learn how to,
yeah make something, say
something, make something.
And then we saw it at the
Astor, which was so sick.
That was like being in this
like massive beautiful cinema
and watching our little
films play consecutively.
- So the films that you did
at Deakin in the final year.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
They screened 'em at the
Astor which is so cool.
- Yeah. Nice.
- And then like I've had
a film that I worked on,
I was the associate
producer screen at the Astor
like a few years ago.
And I was like, I told my producer,
I was like, I've had
my uni film play here,
so this isn't the first time
I've seen my name on this screen.
- Yeah.
(group laughing)
That's so cool though
'cause it gave you the feel like you got
to feel the process all
the way to the delivery.
- To that sort of final role. Yeah.
- And then go do it.
- Yeah. Good luck.
- Doing in the real world.
- Yeah.
And I think then so I
still had those four units,
to answer your question.
- Yes.
- I had to come back to uni.
- Yeah.
- Right?
- Did you think of just not?
- I definitely thought of just not,
I absolutely was like, I'm
not finishing this degree.
I've done it.
I'll say I had a film degree,
no one needs to know if
I have the paper or not.
And then it was, shout out Liz.
We should have a Liz count of
how many times I say her name.
- Yeah.
(Anna laughs)
Drink.
- Yeah.
Actually that's gonna take a sec.
- Well that's good. Yeah.
- Yeah.
So yeah, I came back to university
after working in the industry
for I think like a year
and a half and was like,
okay, I need to finish this.
And so I did sort of my elective subjects.
- And what did Liz say?
Was she just sort of like, you should...
- We had a deal that if
I finished my degree,
Liz is coming to my graduation
and Liz came to my graduation.
- Ah.
- So that was the deal.
I was like, I'll finish, but
you have to come. (laughs)
And then Liz was like, "I
don't go to graduations."
And I was like, "No, too bad."
And then, yeah, so I remember
I was like walking in,
I was like, "If Liz is not here,
I'm going to Deakin to do this graduation.
- Yeah. I'm not walking on that stage.
- I refuse.
And it was like, I think
the degree had, like,
there was only like, it was like me
and then there was all the other cohorts.
I was like, oh, okay, cool.
I'll go up and get my singular film
television animation degree.
- Ah-ha.
- So yeah.
And I am glad, I
definitely am very grateful
that I've like finished it.
And I think it's the thing
of like producing, right?
Like I'm really glad
it's done and I have it.
- Yeah.
- And I think like it was, I definitely,
for me and my kind of path,
it worked out in the right way
that I was able to commit
and like get kind of my
foot in the door enough.
- Mm-hm.
- But then I was like, okay, cool,
I can like do these
subjects at the same time
and still manage it.
- Yeah.
- I remember I was
I was associate producing
a feature in (indistinct)
and we were living on location
and I was like, sorry
guys, I know we've rapped,
but I've gotta go do
my assignment. (laughs)
Going in there trying to do
like, I don't even remember
what those subjects were,
but I'm sure they were great.
(group laughing)
But...
- Worth it.
- Yeah. Well, I mean, I've got it done.
And I think I always tried
to like find a project.
Like I tried to find an
elective that like related.
- Yeah, yeah.
- But I cannot tell you what they were.
But yeah, it was quite funny to be like,
wow, here I am doing the job
that I wanted from the degree.
- Yeah.
- Being like,
well I've gotta go finish my assignment.
But yeah, definitely glad it's
finished and it's a thing.
- Yeah.
- Because then now
I'm here as a story of Wonder.
- As a story of wonder. Absolutely.
And so tell me a little bit about
how you ended up doing more
kind of documentary features
and I don't know how you identified that.
Like, oh yeah, this is something
I could do and want to do.
- Yeah.
I think when I think
about the documentary step
into my career, it just kind of happened.
It's one and I think I
really enjoy documentaries.
I definitely think I
really enjoy watching them.
And I also think I really enjoy,
like, there's so much story
and there's so many wonderful
things in real life as well.
Like I definitely love scripted films.
But I do think that, yeah,
there's so many stories out there.
Everyone had like, everyone
could have a documentary
about themselves and it
would be interesting.
- Yeah.
- 'Cause everyone
has something to say.
- Yeah. People are interesting.
- People are interesting.
And life is interesting and
life is hard and life is great.
- So I think it was just a
bit of a natural progression,
the documentary space for me that I...
Yeah, met Kristina.
So Kristina is the director
of "Spreadsheet Champions."
- Yes.
- We'll come back
to Kristina.
And we started making sort
of small things together
and I think we both knew
we liked telling sort
of slightly obscure stories
or like things that sort
of attention grabbing,
but universal.
And we did.
So I produced her, I
think it was her masters.
So she did her masters at Deakin.
So I produced that for her.
And that was the sort of first
documentary credit I got,
which was cool.
And so we got to do that together
and then we sort of created
a few more together.
And then we did some stuff for
Vice, which was really great.
'Cause I think Vice Australia were making-
- I was gonna say some of this, yeah.
- Very Vice, yeah.
- This is very Vicey. Yeah.
- So that was awesome.
It was great that we sort of,
at the time had that and
we were making things
and we sort of met the team at Vice
and they were really great.
And I think it all started,
I think it's really funny
that when I think about
my like film career
or trajectory,
it's always because I
haven't gotten something
that something else has happened.
So we applied for this funding round
for a project called "(indistinct),"
which is a documentary
about the Mullet Festival
up in Kurri Kurri, New South Wales.
And we applied to,
it was a Screen Australia
and Vice funding thing.
We applied, we're like,
great. Literally perfect.
It's the perfect thing for
them. We didn't get it.
And we're like, all right,
okay, it doesn't matter.
It's okay. It doesn't always happen.
And then Vice reached out and said,
"Hey, we wanna do it anyway."
We're like, "Okay,
amazing." So then we did it.
It wasn't same size of budget and stuff,
but they were like,
we'll give you a budget if
you can make it for this,
we'll drop it on our channel.
- Cool.
- So we're like, amazing.
And then it happened again
like a few years later.
We did a TikTok series
called "Suburban Legends,"
which is about like all the little kind of
local legends in towns.
That's like, there's
the Fitzroy Carrot Man,
and there's the Water Bottle Girl.
And there's always someone somewhere
that is doing something
that everyone knows about
and be like, why?
And they all got the reasons,
but it's just one of those things.
So we applied for Screen
Australia TikTok grant for it.
- Mm.
- And didn't get that.
And I'm like, "Alright, cool.
Guess we suck."
(group laughing)
And then Screen Australia
reached out and were like,
Hey, it's a pretty good idea.
Like, think about throwing it back in
for development anyway.
- Nice.
- And then we did,
and I think we then ended up,
we like, oh, I think we've developed it.
We'll just go straight for production.
We got production funding,
we made the series.
It got like 2 million views
on TikTok and Instagram.
- So good.
- So it's always been like,
let's just keep going.
Let's just try again.
- Yeah.
- And there's always
been versions of, and it's
just crazy to think about it.
It's like it never works out.
You've just gotta keep going.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- And it just points
you onto the right path.
- Well and I think
there's definitely stories
like within the process that
have fallen over, right?
The things that aren't, I
don't wanna say worth it,
but the things that weren't strong enough
and the passion wasn't
strong enough dropped.
But the things that were
like, no, I don't know why,
but I really believe in this one.
- Yeah. It's kind of a test-
- Yeah, it's a test.
- In your conviction on an idea or-
- Absolutely.
- And in your drive.
- Our drive.
'Cause it's like if you're not gonna fight
that first fight, then you just,
it's five years against
can be long and hard.
- Yeah. There's gonna
be all of that, yeah.
Well let's get to it.
Let's talk about "Spreadsheet Champions."
So firstly, where did this idea come from
and how did you get involved?
- Yeah, so "Spreadsheet Champions,"
it came, it was back in
2018, so a long time ago,
lifetime ago, I think.
- Wow.
- End of the year
Kristina read an article
that said, I think it was Australian Teen
World Best in Excel.
- Mm-hm.
- And then she sent it
to me and she was like,
"Hey, what wouldn't this be a great doco?"
- Wow.
- And then I think
we were like, "Yeah, wouldn't
this be a great doco?"
And I think she went
and did some research,
couldn't find anything
else that existed on Excel.
Like we knew, obviously "Spellbound" is
an incredible documentary
about Spelling Bee
and there's sort of always
other little versions.
There's like hot dog eating competitions,
there's King of Kong.
Like it's such a genre.
And they're like, but they
haven't done a computer one yet.
So then we were like,
wait a second, this could be our thing.
So we reached out to the
competition organisers.
So Certiport is the company
that runs the competition
and literally just sent an email saying,
"Hey, we are from Australia.
We heard about this competition,
we absolutely love it.
Would somebody be open
to having conversation
and us potentially making a documentary?"
And I think we just finished
the Mullet Festival documentary.
So we sent that, brazen
to just send that off.
- Wow.
- But I think it had
done like, quite well.
It was very like well received on YouTube.
'Cause we're pursuing YouTube.
So, and it definitely
showed our intention of like
how we communicate something
that is unusual but with a lot of empathy.
And that we're not here
to make like an a current
affairs style gotcha doco,
we are very much here making like
a empowering documentary
about, well, yeah.
That was our angle.
And then they replied
and there was a period of time
where we were trying to like, negotiate
and try to figure out what we were gonna,
they were gonna let us into do it.
And then we got some development
funding from VicSreen.
They were Film Vic back then.
Like, it was so long
ago that they rebranded.
- It was black and white.
(group laughing)
- The pictures.
- A different time.
- Set the pictures.
(man laughing)
And then yes, we started developing,
we were getting ready to start filming
and then yeah, COVID happened and yeah.
And then we sort of were like,
it's that kind of thing though,
where the idea could have
just dropped and fell.
- Yeah.
- But it didn't,
we just sort of kept going as we could.
- So what did you do during that kind
of two-ish year period, I guess?
- Yeah. It was really interesting.
We weren't even sure if the competition
was gonna keep happening.
- Yeah. Yeah.
- 'Cause they were impacted.
So 2020, I'm pretty sure they
didn't even run a competition.
- Mm.
- And 2021 it ran online.
So we sort of just stayed in touch
and we sort of were just communicating
how we'd still absolutely love to.
But I think for us,
the beauty and the idea
and the beauty in the competition
is the internationality
of it, is the fact that they
bring all these students
from all around the world
together for one week
and they nerd out about
Excel or PowerPoint or Word.
Like, it's magical.
So I think for us, we were
like, and we had to wait.
Like, we were like, oh
my God, should we wait?
This is scary.
Like, this is our big idea
and we might lose it because
the competition might die.
You know, we don't wanna
do the online version.
We don't wanna film the online version
'cause it's not got the
same sort of appeal.
They might change their minds.
It's been like two, three years now,
like where people are
moving through the business.
So we just sort of committed
to staying in touch
and committed to talking.
I think we would have Zoom calls like
every couple of months.
And then 2022 came around,
everything sort of started
to settle and they
confirmed they were doing
an in-person competition with
like a few of the countries
that couldn't attend
or that were impacted
from the year before.
They couldn't do the virtual one.
So it was a little bit different.
It wasn't their full scale event.
And then we were like, okay, great.
Like let's shoot a sizzle.
We'll go over, we'll film it.
We'll see what it's like
because the competition,
people talk about it.
And now I am part of it.
There's like a twinkle in
people's eyes when they talk about
how wonderful the
Microsoft Office Specialist
World Championships is.
And we were like, what is going on?
Like, why are-
- What am I missing here.
- Grown ups, like
American corporate people,
cutthroat, scary Americans.
Like, you think about
meeting an American lawyer
and you're like, "Oh my
God, they're the real deal.
Like they are really
hitting you with the lingo."
Soften completely and just talk
about how much they love it.
And we are like, this is so beautiful.
- And dabbing their
eyes as they talk about-
- Fully
- Clip art
or something like that.
- Absolutely. And like everyone
is like, you are kidding.
And I'm like, I'm not kidding.
This is like so special.
And then Kristina went,
so Kristina went and filmed a sizzle
and came back with the
same twinkle in her.
I was like, okay, so it is,
It's just this really special thing.
So then yeah, and then we did our sizzle
and then we just pretty much
picked back up from 2022.
- Mm-hm.
- Yeah.
- And what does the sizzle do?
Is that to get funding,
to get a team together?
- Yeah, sizzle.
So I think a sizzle in documentary and-
- A sizzle reel.
Like a sizzle, a little trailer.
- The term, the official
term, sorry, sizzle reel.
- It's the new name of this podcast.
Welcome to Sizzle of Wonder.
- Sizzle Reel.
By Deakin University.
(group laughing)
Yeah. Essentially it helps you.
It's essentially just like a micro,
and I think everyone
uses them differently,
but I think we, it's sometimes
to show your characters,
it's sometimes to show your tone.
And sometimes it's just
like a little trailer,
you can use a little trailer
from if you've already cut,
if you've already interviewed.
'Cause with docos, right, you
could be getting an archive
of thousands of hours of
footage and you've got it all.
You've shot it all, essentially
all the media exists.
You just need to make it so
you pull from that archive
and kind of show what the story is.
- Hm.
- And I think for us, I think for us,
our sizzle, we had two sizzles before.
Okay, we've had three sizzles.
We've had three sizzles.
It's been a long process.
But the first sizzle
was our found footage,
we found on the internet
and cut it together.
To get that first, it was so bad.
Like, you know, we were
also babies back then.
So the first sizzle was
to communicate the idea.
- Yep.
- I think the second sizzle
was to communicate our vision.
It's like this, Kristina
shot the footage.
So it was very much like guided by her.
She was interviewing people,
so it was like her story.
And then so we cut that
sizzle, which is like,
this is our version of
"Spreadsheet Champions."
And then the third sizzle that we did was
after we had actually
filmed the whole thing,
'cause we weren't financed by
that point properly anyway.
- Oh wow.
- Yeah.
So much tea we can drop.
No, it's just doco things are hard
and they take their own form.
And so the third one it
was to show our characters.
And because then once we met-
- So did you go back in 2023?
- Yeah.
- Then so Kristina
went over in 2022, had a look,
came back with the sparkle in her eyes,
twinkle in her eye.
Filmed the sizzle, put
the sizzle together,
and then 2023-
- We filmed.
- It was the full, yeah.
- Yeah. That was the full year.
- So it was just the two of
you that went over, right?
- Oh yeah. It was crazy.
We had additional, we
had two camera operators
in the US for the comp.
- Okay. Yeah.
- And a sound recordist.
- Mm-hm.
- But yeah, pretty much
the whole backstory,
the whole international
trip was just the two of us.
- Wow. And how many countries did you say?
- We did, so there was six
countries in the film total.
- Yeah.
- Australia
and then five others.
- Wow.
- Yeah. Yeah.
- And how many flights did you say again?
Like 18?
- 18, yeah.
- I think, okay 17 I
think because, no, yeah,
I think it was about 18 flights.
- Yeah.
- Wow.
- Yeah.
- So when do you sort
of pick your characters
in a process like that?
Is it just, do you film
as much as you can?
Everyone, as many interviews as you can,
you kind of do it on the
cutting room floor or?
- Yeah.
- Is it a bit along the way
or what was the process
for this one anyway?
- Well, yeah, I think they're definitely,
it's different all the time.
I think it's depending on
the film you're making.
But I think one of the
massive challenges we had
for "Spreadsheet" was that while
it's an incredible stake for the film,
very hard practically
students can only compete
once in their lives.
- Oh wow.
- So we have no repeat talent.
We have no student that has
won every year in a row.
So we're like, great.
That's our competitor.
- Yeah.
- So with this
Microsoft Office Specialist
World Championships
students can only compete once.
So we were like, "Ugh."
And that was essentially the challenge.
The biggest challenge we had was the fact
that we were gonna go into filming.
We knew who our characters were before,
like, 'cause they qualify.
It's just the time
between when they qualify
and win their national championships
to when they compete at the worlds
is like a three month window.
Very tight.
- Wow.
- And like in the way that
Australia finances films,
that kind of leeway to show
like these are our characters
to then filming, it's not enough time.
- Yeah.
- So we were like,
okay, we have to figure it out
ourselves and then come back
and once we've done it,
figure it out that way
in terms of the financing piece.
- Yeah.
- But we were in touch
with all the countries
and we sort of knew that we wanted
to get a good spread of
countries for the film.
So we knew we couldn't lock
in characters just yet.
But we definitely knew
we wanted to be in touch.
We wanted to like map the
world as far as we could
with our budget and the time we had.
So we kind of had just
done a lot of pre-work.
We'd out when each country qualifies.
We had spoken to each
country's like the person
that runs each country.
So that when time came we're like, great,
as soon as your student is
the winner, send them this,
see if they'll be in
it, and then reach out.
And then we just jumped on a Zoom call.
And then we filmed, we
like picked our six.
A lot of it was, 'cause
they were also different.
They're wonderful, the
six students that we have
and logistically the
countries we could get to,
the visas we could get in time.
Very boring stuff. But
that was part of it.
- But yeah.
- We have to get there.
- It's what you have to think
about as well as the producer.
- Yep. And then also like
how we were gonna film it.
Like if we're going into a country
where we can't have translators
and we can't have that support.
Like how are we managing that?
So it was a logistic thing.
But then also based on the characters,
we got six very, very wonderful students
who all represent very different things
from very different parts of the world.
- Yeah.
- So we had to cast. Yeah.
It was year dependent.
So that's why when we
selected 2023 we're like,
well this is the year.
These are the students. We gotta go.
- Yeah.
- 'Cause we can't
film next year and pick it
up because it won't work.
They won't compete
in the same competition.
- Yeah.
- Well it's interesting though
'cause it sounds like you have to sort
of use limitations to make-
- Totally.
- Like to just right, this
is it, we make decisions,
we work with what we've got.
- Totally, and I think
that that is like true,
it makes it better.
I think restrictions are important.
Like having limits are important
'cause it kind of tests you
on what's really important.
Right?
Like Kristina was filming herself
and, but that made the
documentary really intimate
and it was just the two of us.
So everyone's really comfortable
because it was just us two turning up.
- Yeah.
- You know, putting a camera up
and it wasn't hectic
lights and all this stuff.
- Yeah.
- It was just the two of us
sitting there and saying, okay,
tell us how'd you qualify?
What happened?
- Yeah.
- Why do you love Excel?
- And is that normal for a documentary
to pretty much just have
a crew of two people?
- Yeah, I think documentaries,
I mean they scale, right.
You've got the Beckham documentary
that I'm sure did not have two people.
But you've got, yeah.
I think they take the
form that they need to.
Which I think is what I also
like about documentaries.
It's like, you don't need to
just have this like, okay cool,
I'm filming, I'm gonna
get this, this, this.
It's like, no, no. What
does the story need?
How do we get the best out of someone
that's not a trained professional to sit
and talk on camera for two hours?
'Cause it's really hard.
- Yeah.
- It's really, really hard.
And like, so yeah, I
think it's quite standard
for definitely our level
of documentary, right?
Like this was our first
feature as like lead creative.
So Kristina had directed other stuff.
I'd produced other stuff,
shorter form things,
but we'd never done a
feature ourselves, so.
- Mm-hm.
- No one's gonna give
us millions of dollars
to make this first thing.
So I think, you know,
and the more I think about
it when we were in 2023
and we were getting ready
to film, I was like,
I haven't wrangled the millions
of dollars as a producer.
I haven't done it.
But I think it gave us all
these other wins, right?
And I think someone asked
me a question was like,
"What would you have done differently?"
And I'm like, "I actually
don't think I would've done
anything differently
through this process."
I feel like-
- Yeah.
- You just learned so
much and restrictions and-
- You did the best
option at the time each.
- We did the best we could.
- Each hoop along the way.
Right?
- Absolutely.
And we knew ultimately we
always wanted to come back
to having strong,
strong kind of protagonist,
strong characters that felt comfortable,
that could be themselves,
that could also be proud of
being part of this story.
And I think 'cause they're
students, they're young,
that always just came
back to like, okay cool.
How do we make them feel
comfortable on screen?
How do we let them be?
'Cause they're also competing
at this world championships.
Like this is the most stressful
time of their lives to date.
- Hm.
- A lot of them haven't been
into other countries before.
This is all a lot.
And we are tagging on being like,
"Can you tell us how you feel?"
So we sort of...
- It's like "MasterChef" when they're like
in the middle of a stressful meal.
- It's like when you get
the croquembouche one.
- You're like "What are you
doing there? Can you just go?"
- So yeah, I think it always like,
it allowed us to come back to that
and that's why restrictions are important
because it kind of always makes you like,
okay, what's really important here?
- Yeah.
- What do we really
have to get done here?
- Mm-hm.
- And then everything else will be okay.
- Yeah.
- So I think it's-
- Crystallising.
- There you go.
- Yeah.
- There you go.
- Talk to me a little
bit about what happened.
So you filmed this in
2023 and it gets released.
Like it's still kind of
only going to a wide release
if that, now.
What happened between that time
and where'd the money come from?
And what like, so you've got this hot pile
of film that you come back with.
- Yeah.
- Take it from there.
- Well, yeah, I think
and before 2023, I think we
definitely should mention
that our editor for the
project, so Shannon Michaelas,
also a Deakin graduate.
So we have very Deakin heavy
at "Spreadsheet Champions."
(group laughing)
He was our editor.
He edited the second sizzle for us.
And then the company that he works
for the editors helped
us with the third sizzle.
So Shannon and their kind
of post-production team
helped us prepare the sizzles
and kind of help create
the assets we needed
to secure the sort of
post-production funding.
So that was the angle that we went for.
We pitched the project with
the third sizzle that we had
at the Australian Documentary
Conference, so AIDC.
Australian International
Documentary Conference, AIDC.
And that was fantastic.
Like for us to pitch at
the factory was the first
time we got to like test the concept
with like an audience we
were able to see like,
because I think like we
always like this could just
'cause we see people light
up about the competition
but also about spreadsheets.
Like, this was like this
crazy angle that I didn't
understand at the time.
I didn't understand that Excel
and spreadsheets just like
unlock something in people's brains.
- Yeah.
- Like it's got such
a community around it.
So yeah, we publicly
pitched at the factory in
the start of 2024 and that
got a really great reception.
So we sort of had that validation.
We had the sizzle, we had
like gotten in to pitch
and then we sort of prepared
or we'd like met with the funding bodies.
So they kind of knew who we were.
We were coming in for funding
and they were like, "Oh
yeah, I heard this pitched
at the documentary conference
and 500 people in the room
were like clapping and laughing."
Always validating to have that sort
of thing when you're going into funding.
'Cause there's so many people
all going for the same thing.
- Mm-hm.
- So yeah, we did that.
We were very fortunate.
We got the funding and then we started,
we edited the film from like
mid 2024 to the end of 2024.
So we did that whole process
with like wonderful partners.
So the editors with the
post-production company
that ran it for us with
Shannon, our editor,
shout out Shannon.
And then we sort of worked with Pancho
who did the VFX, Windmill who
did sort of our sound mix.
And they're all just sort of local.
We didn't have a lot of
money, but they all just loved
the concept and they all just jumped in.
They jumped in behind us
and they were amazing.
And then within that
sort of tail end of 2024,
we sort of submitted to festivals.
Come 2025 we got an email saying we got
into South by Southwest, so...
- Yeah.
- Just our little world premier.
- Just a little South by Southwest.
And just before that you'd gotten,
again in a similar theme
to what you've spoken about
before you got a no from
another festival, right?
- Absolutely, yeah.
- Before you got a yes
to one of the biggest ones in the world.
- Yeah.
So I was gonna gloss over the fact
that we didn't get into
festivals actually,
but thanks for bringing that up, but yeah.
- It's okay.
No, we're about accountability here.
- Yeah. Okay, cool, that's fair enough.
No, yeah so we submitted
to a bunch of festivals.
We got, I think for us we'd always like,
"Oh my God, Sundance, how amazing.
Wouldn't it be wonderful?"
- Yeah.
- 'Cause you sort of
like, you make this film
and then you just submit to
the ones you think you're like,
oh well we'll just give it a go.
- Yeah.
- We did get a beautiful
rejection from Sundance,
which felt nicer.
It's like, "Oh, it's just personal."
Like they really care about it.
So it was and what is it,
4,000 films or something?
Try to get in at like a
hundred get picked. It's crazy.
- Yeah. Insane.
- Yeah.
So that was, we were like, oh God.
Oh well.
- Yeah.
- And then I think you just
get that first rejection,
you're like, it's never gonna
get into any festival ever.
- Yeah.
- And then like, I think
about a week and a bit later,
like it wasn't that far on.
I was on a location
Reiki for another doco,
and I felt my phone vibrate in my pocket
and I was like, "What is this?"
I looked at my phone and it just was like,
South by Southwest, South by Southwest.
And then a contract.
And I was like,
whoa!
- Wow.
- We got into South by, so.
- That's so fantastic.
- It was really awesome.
- Congratulations.
- What was that experience like?
- Yeah, I really have to
think about South by Southwest
'cause I genuinely feel
like I blacked it out
because it was so overwhelming.
But it was amazing.
Like, it was incredible to like even be,
and I think the beautiful thing for us was
that we got into South by Southwest
and then they put us in
their first release of films.
- Wow.
- Which is awesome.
But also meant I didn't have
to keep the secret for that long
'cause that was hard to be like,
"You guys don't even know."
- How much advance notice did you get?
- We didn't get that long.
I think we sort of had
like a six week lead time
from when we found out to
when the festival was on.
- Yeah, right.
- It's tight.
Well for the like, the
big headliners I'm sure
have a big leeway,
but for us it's general programmers.
- Mm-hm.
- In you go, come on over.
So yeah, we were very fortunate
to get a Screen Australia
funding to send us over.
So we got sort of travel
support, which was amazing.
- Wow.
- So that we could all go
and attend the festival.
- Nice.
- And then, yeah,
we got to be there and
like we premiered like sort
of opening weekends
and like, I think, which is crazy,
they programmed "The Accountant 2"
and "Spreadsheet Champions"
on at the exact same time.
Are you telling me you're not
splitting audiences with that?
(man laughs)
That is crazy.
But like even to be like, oh cool,
like that film is premiering down the road
and we are premiering down the road.
- Yeah.
- Like that is what?
Like who even thinks that that can happen.
So yeah, I think it was really amazing.
And you're just there and
like you're seeing audiences,
US audiences watching your
film for the first time
and we're like,
"God, we hope they find
it as funny as we do."
Or like
- Was that just...
- So scary.
- Yeah, bizarre and just other
worldly, like out of body.
- Absolutely, the whole,
I think the whole of South
by Southwest was out of body.
Like, I flew home and I was
like, "What just happened?"
(group laughing)
But it was amazing and like,
we kind of sold out and
had very full cinemas
and people were laughing
and people were crying.
So we were like, okay, okay, okay.
I think it, I think it works.
- Mm-hm.
- And then we've been fortunate,
we screened at Hot Docs
in Canada, which is like,
I think North America's
biggest documentary festival.
- Amazing.
- Which was awesome
to sort of have the
like South by Southwest
and then the Hot Docs pairing, I think is,
was really kind of
validating for us to be like,
great, we made a documentary
and then we made something that like
can be recognised at this global level.
And then we came back and we
had our Australian premier
in August at the Melbourne
International Film Festival,
which...
- Wow.
- Was like, I don't wanna say better
'cause I feel like that's,
but it was like so
special to be screening.
- Yeah and to be at home.
Your home festival.
- Absolutely.
And we go, like, I remember going to,
I've been, you go to Miff
all the time and you're like,
"Wow, to get a film in Miff."
And then we were premier fund,
we were premier fund film,
so Miff supported the documentary as well.
So they were part of our financing.
So I think obviously
we always knew we were
gonna screen at Miff,
but when it kind of came
around it was like, no,
this is really special.
And Miff like, they're a wonderful team.
So they like definitely
make like everyone feel
I'm sure very like part of the festival.
But local filmmakers, they
definitely champion so much
and they've always loved the film.
And I think to have that support,
it was just like, yeah,
it was so beautiful.
And then five outta six of the
students came to the premier.
We got some funding for them.
So it was just,
it's just been like an absolute whirlwind.
- That's amazing.
- And yeah, and we were looking
to release in November, so.
- Wow.
- Very, very soon.
- Wow.
Let's hope it gets as good of
a response as it has so far.
- Yeah. We'll see.
But I think, you know,
we were saying haters
are important as well, so I think.
- Well, yeah. Has it
gotten any bad reviews?
- I don't wanna talk about them. No.
(group laughing)
Yeah, I think I'm happy
with the bad reviews.
I'm happy with good or bad reviews.
I think no reviews would've
been more stressful.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- I think.
- At least someone's watching them.
- Yeah. It's passion.
It's negative, but it's still passion.
I think that that's important.
- Yeah. Yeah.
Listen to us.
Yeah. So leave your bad reviews.
- No, no.
- And comments.
- I've just told you how hard it's been.
Don't leave bad reviews.
(group laughing)
- With everything that you've
learned making documentaries,
I don't know, what do you look for
in a really interesting
kind of protagonist?
Like what's the kind of thing,
the glimmer in their eye?
- The sparkle?
- Yeah.
The little twinkle or the
characteristic that you can kind
of in your experience go,
"Oh, hold on, there's something there."
- Yeah. I think it's
really interesting to.
'Cause I always think about that too
and I'm like, "Why?"
What was it? Like, what is the thing?
- How did we know?
- Yeah.
How did we know?
I think for me it's always
that like the story that will kind of,
I think I love watching a doco
that you think it's one thing
and then you just learn.
It's just complete.
Like kind of the themes and the tone
and the story is about something else.
Like, I think if you can
find that duality in a story
and the depth in a story,
I think it's so awesome.
So if you've got a protagonist
that's doing one thing,
but also represents all this other stuff
or a lead character who does this,
but is just like, so the opposite
of like what you think they are.
It's always just that moment of like
enlightenment in a story.
Like you sit into a dark
room often if you're going
into the cinema for 90 minutes,
watching something with
strangers around you.
- Mm.
- What a crazy experience.
- Mm.
- So then to be watching something
where you know it's real life, it's real
and it's just not what you think it is.
I just think this is
such a like, wide answer.
But I do think that there's
something really special in that.
And that's what I love
when I watch documentaries,
is like that hidden sort
of story within a story.
So I'm always looking
to be like, okay, cool.
So that's what happened,
but what's it about?
- Mm.
- So I think that that's...
And for "Spreadsheets," like
you're watching six students
compete on Excel,
but really it's all about
the power of education,
digital literacy, the internationality,
understanding what it's like to
seeing six countries in 86 minutes
and then hoping the one you like wins.
- Yeah.
- So it's always, yeah.
You just bring someone in with something
and then you just tell 'em something else.
- Yeah. The people.
But yeah, it's something
to do with the people
and the actual human.
- It's the yeah, it's the-
- Story behind it.
- The human story I think always, right?
Like you always, and I think
it's always really interesting
'cause we always focus on like these big
crazy things, right?
You're like, "Oh, well
what about the person
that was the best in the world at this?"
But always it's the things that you
and I can relate to are the
things that we have in common.
Which is obviously always,
sometimes the normal smaller stories like,
we all know what it's like to
not get something that you want,
we don't all know what it's like
to get something that you want.
Like a lot of the times
you'll try really hard,
but you might not ever get it.
So like, trying to find those
things that bring us together.
- Mm-hm.
- And they're not always
the big shiny stories.
- Mm.
- And it's just trying to find
and make those stories engaging
'cause I think they're, I don't know.
I don't know. That's what I...
Do you know what I mean?
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- It almost makes me think of like,
the Michael Jordan documentary on Netflix
and just sort of best basketball player
of all time in the world, blah, blah blah.
But it's just like,
that's not an interesting
documentary subject.
- No. It's all the other
things within that.
- Yeah, it's all of his like why
or how?
- How.
- Yeah. It's always those things.
It's like and when you can find obviously,
and I think those, the celebrity docos
that do really well are the ones that
actually have those little
things in there where it's like,
not just like a story about Lady Gaga,
but it's like all those other
things that you're like,
whoa, I've got to spend all this time
in like Lady Gaga's life.
- Yeah.
- And I've learned
all these other things.
It's the universality I think that
it's always finding a fun and interesting
and engaging way to
tell universal stories.
- Mm-hm.
- There we go. I've got the sound bite.
- There we go.
We'll clip it to that.
- Clip it.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- What advice would you give someone
who's starting out in film today?
- I think that, yeah,
that's such a good question.
'Cause I always think about like what
I would've done differently
or like what I wish someone told me
when I was starting my degree.
But I think, like for me,
ultimately it's always come back
to the ability to connect
and communicate with people.
So I think when you are
studying, if you choose to study,
if you choose, anywhere
you choose to study,
but specifically if you
choose to study here,
get to like meet people, work
on other people's projects.
Like just cross-pollinate.
- Mm-hm.
- Because it's so important.
Like your network and your
community is everything.
Like, you meet someone and they go,
"Oh, I remember this person."
And then they'll bring
you on the next job.
And trial things.
Do the roles you're not sure
of to know you don't like them.
Like this is the kind of
safest space you're gonna have
in the time that you're working,
because you're here for a degree,
you're paying for it, you've
got access to equipment,
you've sort of got a safety net, right?
So try as much as you can
you'll find out what you don't like,
but then maybe you'll
find out what you do.
- Mm.
- And I think when I was like
kind of finishing my degree
and thinking about it,
like my final year project
was like quite strange.
And it was like a film
about a like a lady who sort
of lost a bit of her sanity
and started hanging dolls
up around her house.
So just, I can't even
remember why I wrote that,
but I was like, "Great,
this will be interesting."
But I think it was cool
because it was like the time
that I could experiment with a story
and not really have to face
the consequences of it.
I didn't have to like, pay for the gear
or outside of my tuition,
but I wasn't like pulling people together
on this like crazy idea.
I could make the crazy idea here.
- Mm-hm.
- And so it was like a
trial and error thing.
And I think it was a really cool,
and I wish I thought about that more.
I think I was like, "Oh,
can I just like take,"
I wish I had taken advantage
more of the safety net
of a film degree.
Like you have access to such
like industry quality things.
- Yeah. You just like resources, people.
- Absolutely.
And you've got leaders,
like you've got lecturers,
you've got guests.
And I'm sure like if
you asked your lecturer,
like if I had asked Liz or
Donna, hey I need help with this
or I wanna meet someone with that,
I have no doubt that they would
'cause they just love
what they do and they love
teaching and educating and sharing.
That if I had asked them for help
or asked them for something,
they would've tried their best
to make it happen or to connect it.
So yeah, I think take
advantage of the facilities
and of your peers and work to
learn how to work together.
- Yeah.
- Because if you
can't do that, it's gonna be hard.
So I think learn how to do that.
- What is one documentary you
think everyone should watch?
- "Spreadsheet Champion."
No, I'm absolutely (laughs).
I'm not gonna put that one.
- I mean I've always
really loved "Spellbound."
I think since I watched "Spellbound,"
which is the documentary
about the Spelling Bee.
- Mm-hm.
- It was just like the first time.
And I watched it like, I think
when I was studying at Deakin
for the first time and then I went back
and watched it recently.
It was the first time I saw like,
I'll say like that you just
saw people being spotlighted
and championed that you
weren't used to seeing.
And they're kids and they're
brilliant and you see them
and I think his with
"Spellbound," it's so visible.
Like they're spelling these
words and you can see them panic
and then you understand like
why spelling is so important.
It was, I think it's been really special
in terms of my trajectory.
So I think "Spellbound" you
should at least know about it.
- Yeah.
- 'Cause I think it's
just a really important doco.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- And finally, "Spreadsheet's" coming out.
What's next for you?
- Yeah, so "Spreadsheet Champions"
is coming out November 13.
So I think it will already be out
by the time you're watching this.
So-
- I think so.
- Yeah.
Go on spreadsheetchampions.com,
have a watch.
- Link in bio.
- Sure.
It'll be somewhere there.
I think I'm very lucky.
So I work for Good Thing Productions,
which is a Victorian production company.
So I am really grateful
to be working across
their slate of projects.
And I think we'll have a
documentary coming out on the ABC
at the end of next year.
- Cool.
- So that'll be really cool.
So yeah, I'm very lucky
to work where I work
and get to be involved in
so many great projects with that team.
They are very supportive.
They were our co-producing partners
on "Spreadsheet Champions"
and yeah, they're wonderful.
- I think, yeah, I'm really lucky
'cause Good Thing, they
craft really great stories.
I think they're kind of
the stories I wanna watch
and to work there is amazing.
But they also are really
supportive of like,
crazy ideas that I have.
They're like, "Go on, give
it a go. Figure it out."
So yeah, I'm really
grateful to work there.
- Nice.
Well, "Spreadsheet
Champions," check it out.
Liz Bulge.
Thank you from everyone here
and Anna Charalambous,
thank you so much for being
on "Stories of Wonder."
- Thanks for having me.
- I have always thought
I am a bizarre person.
- I don't think many
people at all understand,
how you can have a competition
on just Microsoft Excel.
- They're representing
their country on a stage
that thousands of other
students did not qualify for.
- The tech sector run the world now,
so we need champions
like these young people
promoted and represented.
- Imagine, I could be like, a
YouTuber and an Excel winner.
- This year's tests are definitely
the most challenging ones
we've ever developed.
- Just don't royally mess up.
- Everyone, they really want
to get this first place prize.
I think everyone is good, but I am better.
- Our world champion goes to...