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Ministry Wives & Women is a podcast for ministry wives and women seeking encouragement, spiritual depth, and honest conversation for the journey of faith. everyday life, and the challenges of church leadership. Hosted by Andrea Griffith, each episode offers thoughtful wisdom, real stories, and gospel-centered hope to help women live with greater resilience, authenticity, and grace in every season.
[00:00] [Ann Wilson] You're gonna be hurt. You're gonna be let down, especially in the church. It feels worse in the church because we, it shouldn't be happening there, but it does. And we all have had it. And so how do we continue to be vulnerable and open and authentic in the midst of that?
[00:15] [Andrea Griffith] Welcome to the Ministry Wives and Women Podcast. This is a place where we openly address the challenging realities of ministry and point one another to Jesus and the gospel. Whether you're thriving, barely holding on, or somewhere in between, you are not alone. Hi, I'm Andrea Griffith, and each episode brings honest conversations, biblical encouragement, and stories from women who understand this calling. This podcast is part of The Church Hub, where we're committed to strengthening ministry leaders and the families who walk with them. We're so glad you're here. Hi, I'm Andrea Griffith, your host for The Church Hub for Ministry Wives. I'm so glad you've joined us today. A good friend here, Ann Wilson, again. And Ann is here to talk about resilience in authenticity.
[01:11] [Ann Wilson] That's a good topic.
[01:12] [Andrea Griffith] Well, I've seen you live it out. Um, Dave and Ann planted Kensington Church together over 30 years ago. They've been married for 45 years. They are the host for Family Life Today. They have 3 sons, 7 grandchildren, and Ann is the author of 3 books. And I listen to Ann every day.
[01:37] [Ann Wilson] That's nice of you.
[01:39] [Andrea Griffith] On FamilyLife Today. And one of the things I love about you, there are many, but one of the things that I love is that you don't hide where you've messed up. You don't shy away from your mistakes. And as you say that, I'm listening and I'm like, oh, there's hope for me because I have those I do those same things. Or you don't even shy away from telling us, "I had this wrong attitude in my heart." And—
[02:13] [Ann Wilson] Because it happens all the time, Andrea.
[02:15] [Andrea Griffith] Yes. I think we're all there. But it's not easy. Like, where does that come from? How did you grow in that?
[02:25] [Ann Wilson] It's so funny because it— It was like this gift of God when we were in seminary that the seminary president at the time, Don Weaver, and his wife Lois asked us to be in a small group with them and to mentor us in our 3 years at seminary. And that was like an incredible honor. I think I was 21, Dave was 24. And so he says, "Hey, we're gonna have everybody over for our first small group. So why don't you and Dave come? Dave, bring your guitar and we're gonna— you can lead." worship. And we're like this, you know, we're like pumped out of our minds, like, "We're going to seminary!" We'd already been in ministry with Cru for a couple years. And we knew as we were in seminary that we'll probably plant a church. And we didn't go into seminary thinking that, but once we were there, Dave had a vision, like, "I wanna be a church planter. So we need to learn as much as we can." So we go into this small group and we walk into the living room, and I thought there'd be a bunch of seminary students. But they were people in the community that lived in our region, like in the— like Don's neighborhood, people that they've met, all different ages, races. It was awesome. And so we're like, this is cool. And so Dave does some worship and people are singing and people are very into the worship. Like, this is so Jesus-like. And then Don says, hey, um, everybody kind of share where you've been this week and how you're doing spiritually. And so, you know, I'm like, okay, this is going to be great. And the first guy goes— and this guy's probably in his 30s— and he goes, I've been smoking weed all week and I've been high the entire week. Dave and I look at each other like, what? Like, what's happening right now? The next girl goes— and I don't know the order, but all I can remember is there's this married couple and The guy is a Black guy, she's a white woman. And she goes, "We've been fighting the whole week because our parents are struggling with our marriage." They didn't want them to get married. Yeah. I can't remember which didn't. But anyway, racially, there was some tension with the families.
[04:42] [Andrea Griffith] Right.
[04:43] [Ann Wilson] Yeah. And they're like, "And basically, we're starting to, like, just get on each other's nerves. And we struggled the whole week just fighting." And like, Oh, gosh. The next one, Andy, this is no lie. This next girl, I'm thinking she's about my age. She looked like she's about 21. And I didn't know it at the time, but she was like possessed. Wow. But God had really been helping her, healing her. But she also had, at the time they called it multiple personalities.
[05:15] [Andrea Griffith] Okay.
[05:16] [Ann Wilson] And we don't call it that today. It's a dissociation disorder.
[05:19] [Andrea Griffith] Yeah.
[05:19] [Ann Wilson] But She— I can't even explain this. She's talking as a 21-year-old, and then she starts sucking her thumb.
[05:29] [Andrea Griffith] Oh, wow.
[05:29] [Ann Wilson] And she curls up in this fetal position. And she's crying. And now I'm like, "I don't even know what we're doing or where we are, but this is the most bizarre small group I've been in in my life." Yes. I say all that because the people who are the most authentic Jesus followers, but nothing was hidden, nothing. And I had never been in a church like that. I'd never seen people like that. And so, for the next several years, we'd be a part of this group. And it changed us. All of a sudden, we had permission to share what we were really struggling with. They were a safe group. But then, Kadan, our pa— our leader, the seminary prof, always brought in the Word, brought in the gospel, brought in the hope of what Jesus is saying. What he's done for us. And by the end, I mean, there's confession going on, there's repentance going on. Wow. It was like one of the most beautiful, life-changing experiences I had been on. Wow. And so, to go back to a place where people weren't sharing their struggle felt really awkward. And I think Dave and I both were— we said to each other, "I don't ever wanna go back to hiding." our struggles, and who we are. Because as people shared, it made me be able to open up. But now, mind you, it's not just a venting session. We always have the Word, we always have the gospel. It creates this framework of authenticity, which I think is important. We're not just venting about our problems, but by the end, we're— it's like a psalm going back to the hope of the gospel, and the truth of who Jesus— not Jesus in the Psalms, but who God really is. And I think that's where it started. Yeah. And back in those days, in the '80s, nobody was doing that. And so I don't— I don't think everybody appreciated it at the time because when we got into ministry and started church planning, a church, I can remember sharing stuff and women were taken back a little bit, like, are we allowed to talk about that? Are we allowed to share our stuff? Yeah. But I think it's important. What do you think? Yeah, I think it's important.
[07:45] [Andrea Griffith] Well, I loved what you were saying when you told by the end where you were.
[07:50] [Ann Wilson] Yeah.
[07:50] [Andrea Griffith] I don't think you would have ended up in the place where you ended, where there's confession, there's repentance, there's life change. If you hadn't started at the beginning with just, "I'm just gonna be real. This is who I am." If we don't bring our real stuff to the table, it never gets dealt with. And it's in all of our hearts.
[08:12] [Ann Wilson] All of us.
[08:13] [Andrea Griffith] Yeah, we're all broken.
[08:14] [Ann Wilson] I used to just feel like, "It's only me. I'm the most sinful person in the room." Yes. We're all sinful and broken. And especially in leadership. If we can, I think that helps build resilience. If we can be the first ones to step into that as a group leader, as a pastor's wife, to say, like you said it in our last episode together, you said you were in a group and you said, "I'm really struggling." I think women are like, "Oh my goodness." Yeah. So, "I'm not alone? If the pastor's wife struggles, I struggle and I can talk about that?" Yes. The pastor's wife struggles. Every person in the world struggles.
[08:55] [Andrea Griffith] Yes.
[08:55] [Ann Wilson] But there is hope in the gospel, in our struggles.
[08:58] [Andrea Griffith] Yeah, we're all broken. We're all fallen. I've learned this phrase recently that we're all wounded and we're all wounding. Yes.
[09:06] [Ann Wilson] In this— And the more wounded we are, generally speaking, the more wounding we do.
[09:12] [Andrea Griffith] Yes. Yeah. And if I won't ever get honest and bring it to the table, I never heal.
[09:16] [Ann Wilson] Yes.
[09:17] [Andrea Griffith] And so I just continue in that cycle. The cycle. Yes.
[09:21] [Ann Wilson] I do remember Don Weaver, our seminary president, I remember saying, "I just wanna be like Bill Bright," who is the founder and president, used to be before he passed, of Campus Crusade for Christ, or Cru. And I said, "He's just sharing Jesus everywhere he goes. He's listening to the Spirit." And Don looked at me, he said, "You need to get Bill Bright off the pedestal." I'm like, "No, he is on my pedestal and I'm gonna keep him there." Right. I look up to him. He goes, "You can look up to him." But there is no person that you should put on the pedestal because everybody can fall off the pedestal. Jesus is up there alone.
[09:57] [Andrea Griffith] Yes.
[09:57] [Ann Wilson] Everybody else, we're just fleshly people.
[09:59] [Andrea Griffith] Yes.
[10:00] [Ann Wilson] Trying to walk with God by the power of the Spirit.
[10:02] [Andrea Griffith] Yes. There's equal ground at the foot of the cross. Yes. And just even knowing that is helpful.
[10:08] [Ann Wilson] Yes.
[10:09] [Andrea Griffith] It's like, I can be authentic. I can bring my issues knowing that we're just all at the foot of the cross together. We're just all journeying on this journey. And we all desperately need Jesus.
[10:21] [Ann Wilson] I was at a little— I was at a little small group. I guess it was several small groups at a church. This is right when we were planning the church. And I was just like, I had two boys at the time. One was two, the other was four months. So, you know, I'm in there with a baby carrier and I have my two-year-old and the two-year-old was just in the midst of the twos, the hard twos. And I asked, I I had had an orange juice glass in my hand and he was taking it and like, take, trying to take it out of my hand. And so I remember saying, so I just let go and the whole thing sprayed in his face. And I said, I felt so bad that I like just let go when he did that. But I also felt like, well, there you go. You know, you wanted it, there you go.
[11:10] [Andrea Griffith] Yeah.
[11:11] [Ann Wilson] And the women were like, it's that awkward, what you said earlier, that awkward silence. Like, yeah, like you're the worst mom ever. And I was saying that in my head anyway. You're the worst mom ever.
[11:20] [Andrea Griffith] Yes.
[11:20] [Ann Wilson] And I went home feeling like I am the worst mom ever. They've never done anything like that. But I think, I think if you're with a group that nobody will share, even if you've led and you've been with a group for a while and nobody will go there, find some people that will open up. I think that's important to find people that will open up. I think we're getting to a point where that's becoming easier for us.
[11:45] [Andrea Griffith] Oh, I think so too. And I'm grateful.
[11:47] [Ann Wilson] Me too.
[11:48] [Andrea Griffith] Yeah. I remember a time we were still still traveling on the road, and we would go to different—
[11:53] [Ann Wilson] your listeners know how you traveled on the road? You come on, share that.
[11:57] [Andrea Griffith] Okay, it's amazing. So, um, when Trent and I first got married, our first 15 years of our married life, we lived in an RV travel trailer, and we were doing ministry.
[12:10] [Ann Wilson] Did you hear that? She lived, lived in a trailer for 15 years. How many kids?
[12:17] [Andrea Griffith] 4 kids. 4 kids. We should all just do that.
[12:21] [Ann Wilson] Yes.
[12:23] [Andrea Griffith] Yes. It actually, I could just tell you it was easier than planting a church.
[12:28] [Ann Wilson] Really?
[12:29] [Andrea Griffith] Oh, yeah.
[12:29] [Ann Wilson] Oh, yeah. What?
[12:30] [Andrea Griffith] Because if the people don't like you, you leave. You can keep moving on. Yeah, I get that. We're living in this RV travel trailer. It's the only home we had. And my husband would preach, you know, Sundays and then all through the week. And I would teach the women. On Tuesdays and Thursdays. And what I typically did, I mean, I would pray about it, but I would typically share my testimony for the first time I spoke at that church. Yeah. Just to let them know I'm broken, I'm fallen, I don't have it all together. And my testimony is a lot of brokenness. I had a lot of sexual immorality in my past. Me too. When Jesus brought me to the Lord, he radically He changed my life when He brought me to Himself. And so I would share, you know, the depth of that sin and then how Jesus was one day at a time changing me. And I remember one of these times I had shared my testimony, and as the ladies were leaving, a lady walked past me and she said, "Dear, I'm sure that was good for someone." What? You just die a thousand deaths at that point because you're like, oh Lord, you know, I thought I was doing this for you. And they can't relate at all. Like, really, Lord? I really got honest and vulnerable here and she got nothing out of it, you know, and just that the sting of it. And I'm sure you've had times like that.
[14:14] [Ann Wilson] Well, I mean, I shared mine in the last episode. What did you do after that?
[14:18] [Andrea Griffith] Well, I did like you. I'm ready to hide. You know, I'm ready to run back to my trailer, never come out, never— And get out.
[14:25] [Ann Wilson] Trent, go! Get out of here.
[14:27] [Andrea Griffith] We need to get out of here. It's time to leave the parking lot now. Yes. Yes. But for me, even just being able to bring it back and say, God, 'Were you pleased?' You know, I may have messed up.
[14:43] [Ann Wilson] That's a great tip for any— for ministry. If you're in ministry, that's a great tip. Ask the question, 'God, are you pleased?' Yeah.
[14:52] [Andrea Griffith] You know, it wasn't perfect. It was just my little loaves and fishes that I'm bringing to Jesus and saying, 'This is all I have. Take it.' But just going back to that question of, 'God, were you pleased?' And I felt like he spoke to my heart and just said, Yes, daughter, I am pleased.
[15:15] [Ann Wilson] Yeah.
[15:15] [Andrea Griffith] And so just being able to get to a place of saying, then that's enough. That's okay. God, if you are pleased, it doesn't really matter if anybody else was, if you were. But I have to fight to get there. Me too.
[15:32] [Ann Wilson] I still fight with that.
[15:34] [Andrea Griffith] Yes.
[15:35] [Ann Wilson] Of like, and my husband Dave is so good at it. I'm like, don't you ever like wrestle after you've done something? Like, was it good enough? Did the people like it? Did it change any lives? Do you ask those same questions?
[15:48] [Andrea Griffith] Oh, yes.
[15:49] [Ann Wilson] And Dave will say— I'm curious what Trent would say. He's like, man, when I preach, I just put it on the altar. Like, Lord, I did the best I could today, and I'm putting it on the altar as an offering to you. It's my best. What I found, like, okay, I'm gonna do that. So like, Lord, it's the best. Like, what do you think? And he'll say like, Ann, you know, I'm so pleased with you, daughter. But then I keep of wanting to go back and take that offering off. Yes. You know, and play with it and look at it and like, "Oh, was it good? I should have said this. Why didn't I say this?" And, "That lady gave me a dirty look." Yes. Yes.
[16:23] [Andrea Griffith] Yeah. Yeah.
[16:25] [Ann Wilson] And so, how do you leave it there and let it rest? How do you do that?
[16:29] [Andrea Griffith] Yeah, I am still growing in that, hopefully. I'm just like you of just taking it off. Yes. And like, "I could have done it this way. I could have done it that way. And what do you think, Lord?" Recently, a friend of mine said, sent me. It's called a welcoming prayer. And it basically says, "I let go of my desire for approval. I let go of my desire for success. I let go of my desire to fix this. And instead, I'm just grabbing on to your presence in this moment, God." That's so good. It's just Jesus.
[17:10] [Ann Wilson] Yeah.
[17:10] [Andrea Griffith] And that has been a helpful, tangible tool for me that I can sit and literally let things go and then say, "And Lord, I want to invite you into this spot. Help me now move on.
[17:24] [Ann Wilson] I'm just gonna leave that with you, and now we're moving on to the next thing." I think that's so good, because what I have found, and maybe you have too in ministry, is that it's really easy to gauge your success or your performance on what people say about it.
[17:39] [Andrea Griffith] Oh, yes. Their response.
[17:40] [Ann Wilson] If nobody responds, Then you feel like, "Oh, maybe I didn't do it as well." And then you give the enemy a foothold when you start playing with all the thoughts, because he's always whispering, "It wasn't enough." And if you have any tendencies of performance-oriented background, it will never be enough. And so, that's why we're saying, again, going to Jesus, talking to him about it, continuing to resurrender that. But I like that. Was it a prayer?
[18:10] [Andrea Griffith] It is. It's a welcoming prayer.
[18:12] [Ann Wilson] Welcoming prayer.
[18:13] [Andrea Griffith] Yeah, I can send it to you.
[18:14] [Ann Wilson] You should list it on your show notes in your podcast.
[18:17] [Andrea Griffith] Okay, I will do that. I will do that. So when we're sharing authentically and vulnerably, I feel like your heart is open and it's raw. And so when you're not getting the approval from other people, it can feel very isolating. And then all of a sudden you're isolated from even the people that you're trying to minister to. Because you haven't gotten this feedback back.
[18:44] [Ann Wilson] And it's vulnerable. You feel like you're in a vulnerable spot.
[18:48] [Andrea Griffith] Yes. So what do you do with that? Because I watch you be vulnerable all the time. I hear you, um, on the Family Life Podcast. I, I hear you as you teach. What do you do if you've moved yourself and you're feeling isolated? How do you get yourself in a position where you are resilient and can keep moving forward.
[19:10] [Ann Wilson] Yeah. I think a lot of my need for approval, I think it's a question that you ask Jesus. And maybe, I don't know if you've ever asked it, but you're asking the question, God, why am I needing the approval of people? That's so good. Is there something in my background, right, that's create— that has created this insecurity in me that needs people to approve it. And Andrea, I have so many things that I feel like I've— when, when I ask God and I pray that question, Father, is there something that happened that has created this insecurity or this need for approval? And I feel like God brings up these scenarios where I'm like, I can remember when— I've shared this on our podcast a lot, but I was a gymnast for so many years And I had done really well at a gymnastics meet. You were a gymnast too, right?
[20:04] [Andrea Griffith] A little bit. I didn't go as far as you did.
[20:06] [Ann Wilson] But I remember walking home and I had— coming home from an event and I placed 4th all around in a huge meet and super proud. But my dad said, "If you don't come home with the first place, don't come home at all because we are winners and we are— you should never be satisfied with anything but a first." And so talk about approval performance stuff. And so I had to go back into that and ask Jesus. And sometimes, And sometimes a counselor is great at doing that. But if something keeps coming up of needing approval, needing approval, I feel like God is saying, "I wanna help you heal that. I wanna help you heal that." And so, I've had some people help me in counseling, but also now I'll just be triggered. And if I feel like, "Oh, I needed that approval." Lord, there's something going on right now that I need that approval. Can you show me that what that is? Can you heal that? Bring it to light. I can pray for it. Do scripture, do a Bible study, whatever. But God wants to heal that. And I feel like if it keeps resurfacing, God is saying, "Hey, go a little deeper. Let's go a little deeper into that." Because he said, "I came to set the captive free." Not only spiritually, but also emotionally and of our soul, like that we can just live in freedom to be ourselves.
[21:21] [Andrea Griffith] Yeah, that's so good. I so agree with that. Even this week, I found myself being really anxious. And the anxiety was really in a lot of different areas. And that was kind of like a warning sign for me. It's like, "Something's off." You know, this anxiety is just kind of spreading.
[21:39] [Ann Wilson] Right, it keeps resurfacing. Even your marriage, any issues that keep resurfacing, God is saying, "Hey, look at this area.
[21:46] [Andrea Griffith] Look at this area." Yeah, so I was able just to sit down with him and trace it down. I was like, "Lord, where is this coming from? What is happening?" And he basically showed me showed me that things weren't going like I thought they should, or like I had wanted them to in the past. And being able to see that, I was like, "Oh, okay, I thought one thing. You obviously have a far better plan. But right now, I can't see it all. It's unfamiliar. It's unknown. I just need to surrender." And as I just sat and surrendered, just saying, you know, "You're the sovereign God. You know all things I don't know. I can surrender these areas." There was peace, but I never would have realized, "I'm thinking wrongly right now." And then, "What is truth here that I can replace it with?" That's really good.
[22:45] [Ann Wilson] Me too. And I have to ask Jesus, like, "Jesus, give me your thoughts." 'What are your thoughts about what I'm going through right now?' Yes. And he reveals it.
[22:53] [Andrea Griffith] Yes.
[22:53] [Ann Wilson] The Holy Spirit reveals it. The Word reveals it. It's so good that he'll do that for us.
[22:58] [Andrea Griffith] Yes.
[22:59] [Ann Wilson] But that's where that intimacy with Jesus comes in. If you don't have that, man, we're just floundering.
[23:05] [Andrea Griffith] Yes. Yeah. So as, as a pastor's wife, what have you seen the benefits of your authenticity to be? 'Cause I see it all the time. We've talked about like, it's scary, people might not respond right to us. They say, "Oh, I'm sure that helps somebody, but not me." And so like, those are like the drawbacks or the negativity.
[23:29] [Ann Wilson] Yeah.
[23:30] [Andrea Griffith] But what's the beauty of that? Because you do it, so I know you see the beauty of how God uses that.
[23:37] [Ann Wilson] I think the beautiful thing is, is that people come up and say, I felt hopeless. I felt like I was all alone. I felt like I couldn't do it. I felt like I'm the only one. And when somebody says, like— it sounds terrible, like, "If you guys can make it, I know that I can make it." "If you guys are struggling, and you've, like, been walking with Jesus for this long, I think I could do that." I think that's the most encouraging thing about— about being able to hear people's stories is when people come up and say, "I had lost all hope in my marriage, in my ministry, in my affection, or even my love for my husband." I think when we wrote our book, Vertical Marriage, about how I had lost all my feelings for Dave. Yeah. And I told Dave that, like, "I've lost all my feelings for you." And this is— we'd been married 10 years. Starting the church. And I've had so many pastors' wives come up to me with hope, saying, "You made it, 'cause I'm right there, right now. And I don't know if I can get through this." But for them to say, "But you guys have been married a long time now, and you say it keeps getting better." I think that's just the most encouraging thing when you hear those stories. I bet you've had those stories too.
[24:55] [Andrea Griffith] And even as I hear you share, you got teary, you know, your eyes are tearing up. And I think it's because That's the longing of our heart is we know that we were so far from Jesus when he found us. And so talking to people, we just want to put one hand on that person and one hand on Jesus and pull together. And the way that we enter into that a lot of times is just being real. Our own struggles. I loved the way you said, I've been— you've been walking with Jesus this long and you still have struggles.
[25:37] [Ann Wilson] Yes.
[25:37] [Andrea Griffith] Yes. That we're always gonna be this way until we get home. And no matter how long we've been walking with Jesus, there's all these broken places. There's these fallen places. And when we can be real about that, other people can relate. And we're able to grab them and grab Jesus and say he's our only hope.
[26:00] [Ann Wilson] And I think, Andrea, there's a lot of church hurt that's always gone on. Yeah. But there's a lot of church hurt that people are experiencing. I've had— I've experienced it. You probably have too. Everybody experiences church hurt.
[26:15] [Andrea Griffith] Yes.
[26:15] [Ann Wilson] It's hard to know what to do with that. If you're honest about it, because everybody's just voicing everything now and they're all saying it.
[26:23] [Andrea Griffith] Yeah.
[26:24] [Ann Wilson] And so I think it has to— we have to walk with Jesus us really closely to be able to heal from that, but also continue to be vulnerable. Yes. Because when we have— when we get hurt, we pull our hearts back in and we don't want to be vulnerable. We don't want to give anything away.
[26:41] [Andrea Griffith] Right.
[26:41] [Ann Wilson] But Jesus continues. It's like him giving his life for us. He continues when he's rejected. He continues to give his life away. Yes. And that's the beauty of the gospel too, of just like you're gonna be hurt, you're gonna be let down, especially in the church. It feels worse in the church. Yes. Because we— it shouldn't be happening there, but it does.
[27:03] [Andrea Griffith] Right.
[27:03] [Ann Wilson] And we all have had it. And so how do we continue to be vulnerable and open and authentic in the midst of that?
[27:10] [Andrea Griffith] Yeah.
[27:10] [Ann Wilson] That's by God's grace.
[27:12] [Andrea Griffith] Yeah, that's so well said. While you were talking, it brought to mind a verse about Jesus that said he knew what was in men's hearts. And so, he did not entrust himself to men. But he kept entrusting himself to a faithful God. And I think that's where it all has to come back is just, "Jesus, are you pleased?" And knowing that I'm wearing the righteousness of Christ, not because of anything I've done. Anything I've done, I mess it up just by my fallen humanness. Like, I already taint it. But everything that Jesus did, he lived out our perfection. Perfection for us. So sometimes when I've messed things up, I just say, that's why you had to come, because you had to live out my perfection for me. And Lord, even as I'm stumbling through this, I, I'm giving you my heart so that it can stay soft.
[28:13] [Ann Wilson] And it's a daily surrender. Yes. I mean, we give our lives to Jesus, but for me, I want to take things back and control things. Yes, it makes me feel secure. It doesn't bring security. It's a false illusion. So every morning I wake up, I'm like, "Lord, I give you my life today. I resurrender it so that you can live through me." Yes. Because I can't do it in and of myself. I have no strength or power. But in you, in you, I can walk in freedom and authenticity.
[28:45] [Andrea Griffith] Yes. Yeah. And that's a gift. I'm in Romans right now, and he's talking about, you know, all our members were once presented to self and sin.
[28:56] [Ann Wilson] Yes.
[28:56] [Andrea Griffith] But now all of our members are presented to God and righteousness, and he can work through that. And I think even with this authenticity, I'm presenting myself to God and saying, use me however you want to and give me the courage and strength to be authentic even when it hurts. Yeah. Even when I'm stinging a little bit.
[29:21] [Ann Wilson] Yeah. Help me to give my heart away and I cannot self-protect when I want to, and it feels dangerous to let my heart out there. Yeah.
[29:30] [Andrea Griffith] Yeah. So thank you so much for today.
[29:34] [Ann Wilson] I love that you're doing this, and I love that you're in ministry. I love how God is using all these incredible women in ministry. Isn't it fun?
[29:44] [Andrea Griffith] Yeah. And it's so fun to just link arms with a fellow pastor's wife.
[29:48] [Ann Wilson] Yeah.
[29:48] [Andrea Griffith] And hopefully be speaking to you as a pastor's wife and just letting you know you're not alone.
[29:53] [Ann Wilson] We're right there with you.
[29:55] [Andrea Griffith] We're all seeking to follow Jesus and be authentic as we love him and we love others. So thank you for joining us again today for The Church Hub. If you'd like to learn more about The Church Hub and how we're strengthening ministry leaders and the families who walk with them, you can visit thechurchhub.org. Until we meet again, I'll be praying that you experience the nearness of Jesus.