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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what
Speaker 2:we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care
Speaker 1:for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you. Hello?
Speaker 3:Hey. Where are you?
Speaker 1:I'm in the car.
Speaker 3:Cannot see your face.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. There are so many children.
Speaker 3:Are they in the car with you?
Speaker 1:No. They are in bed sleeping, but I was worried I would wake them up. And so I'm trying to be where I can at least have cell coverage and Yeah. Also talk to you, but I don't know. We'll see how it works.
Speaker 1:But it's definitely better than last time except that you can't see me.
Speaker 3:True. I cannot.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:It's okay.
Speaker 1:But I promise I'm here.
Speaker 3:I believe you. I see a little light that bounces around sometime. It's alright. We're good.
Speaker 1:I do not you're first of all, again, you're so kind to do this. I do not know even where we left off.
Speaker 3:I don't either, and it seems like maybe we jumped around a little bit. And so it seems like we got you through high school and to college.
Speaker 1:Finally. And
Speaker 3:and then it seemed like, that kind of murky time of college, which I until we connected at I don't really know that college time too much past the first semester or so when you still came to but I I do know pieces because of just knowing your story and hearing it and reading and everything. I do know some pieces, but I think we ended talking about how you really just connected with some people that well, I mean, it was just the perfect connections because of each time you were so needing and wanting a connection with someone and someone that would, I think, probably, care for you and take care of you in some place where you were safe. And so you stepped into all of these places that did appear safe, and then they ended up being toxic because those people had their own stuff going on.
Speaker 1:That was a pattern for a
Speaker 3:long time.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that was in part trauma, in part because of my age or the bad combination of that. But over and over again, because I was not well and because I was young. So in some ways really did need someone to still care for me. Yeah. Different differently than differently than now as an adult, you know, but
Speaker 3:But still, yeah, you did. I mean, like, when you went to like, you definitely you needed a place to live, you know? I mean, those kinds of things. So, you know, some of your basic needs. So having yeah.
Speaker 3:Food and safety and those kinds of things. And you know, I don't know, it's kind of interesting to me just not even just attached to your story, but those people had to have been looking for something too, right, that they needed. Because you had to fill a role in their life also.
Speaker 1:Or it wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Or it would have happened and they had been really good to you, you know, and it wouldn't have gone toxic. Like, let's say that John and Steve is where you ended up living instead of with I don't think that would have gone bad on you, you know?
Speaker 1:So here's the hard part about that. Recognizing that and realizing that is difficult because I'm the common denominator.
Speaker 3:Except you were also a child, and every person whose life you stepped into was the adult in this situation. You know? And I would say that maybe didn't have any, like, specific training or, you know, or whatever to go along with just being like the parent or kind of a parent, you know? But the others and everything, they had, like, literally degrees that should have helped them work with you.
Speaker 1:I think that we I I I think I spent years and even still now, even though I've come so far and I try so hard, still now have those feelings of I was the common denominator, what did I do wrong, why am I so hard, if if things really could get better, someone would have helped me by now. And then every time, every time something goes wrong, even last year. And so it's hard to I don't know. It's it's hard to keep hoping. It's hard to keep trying.
Speaker 1:It's hard to even you who have been there since eighth grade, it's hard to me it's hard for me to even initiate or reach out because it feels dangerous. And, actually, I was thinking about this a lot after we talked because I thought, why is that? If you're obviously a safe person and it's been all this time, it's not like you're new to my life. Like, decades and decades now. Yeah.
Speaker 1:True story, isn't it? Then what makes it so hard? And I'm getting ready for a class that I'm taking with the ISSTD actually about DID and helping patients and things. And in a book, it talked about it, and it was a thing. And seeing that on paper was a fascinating experience for that to just sort of settle into me of this was not actually my fault.
Speaker 1:Like, made a lot of mistakes. I had a really hard time growing up. I don't mean that I was easy. I know that my issues were big issues. They were too big for me.
Speaker 1:That's why I needed help. But
Speaker 3:and you were a child. That's the thing. You were a child. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That part I seriously did not even recognize until we had a foster child several years ago who was 17.
Speaker 3:Uh-huh. And I think when when you're a child, even like even when you're in college, even though you were moving into adulthood, you probably were moving into that differently just because of the trauma you had dealt with. You skipped pieces and everything, I'm sure, growing up. Know, you had to take care of yourself at times. You always had to be worried about things.
Speaker 3:So, you were hypervigilant and the trauma that comes from that and everything. So, I mean, even like when you went to college and even like with the, that was still that. I was still needing and needing some help, you know? I remember too once. I'll tell you, I remember towards the end of my end relationship, I remember saying to her, I am not okay.
Speaker 3:I'm not okay. I'm not doing okay at all. I'm I'm not okay. And she said, well, you'll you'll just need to go talk to Rachel about that, You know? And I had seen Rachel a little, but, I mean, she she was just, at a certain point, done with that piece of me.
Speaker 3:You know?
Speaker 1:You Rachel was your new therapist once you started hanging out with your other therapist?
Speaker 3:Rachel was my therapist that I went to when I finally told I am not well. I am not through with with, I'm not through with therapy. We stopped too soon, and you have to help me find someone because I don't know anyone. And then she panicked now that now I know as in the state I'm in have been for a while. I know that she panicked because she didn't want me to go to anybody that she knew because she knew she was gonna be part of the issue.
Speaker 3:And she didn't want me to go to anybody that she knew she'd do. And so she did say, well, I think really, a good person for you to go to would be Rachel, which she did know, but she wasn't in So but I had to beg her to help me find somebody else. But so it jumps to a time that she's done. So I know that, and you probably found that out too. But, you know, I never found you hard, Emily.
Speaker 3:I never found you hard, but I was also never a person that I was never a person that was officially in a spot of being your therapist or your mother. You know, I was I was never officially, like, in one of those roles. I was kind of always a step away from those. You know?
Speaker 1:But you were also a really healthy practicing point for me in a way because you were very especially as you did your work with Rachel, you were Mhmm. Focused on keeping yourself healthy and were able to say, this is actually not me. If this is you, we can be present with you for it, but it's not me or no that's not helpful or you know like I mean you had you had you were able to say preferences, you were able to say no, you had boundaries, you were and I think I think those things are part of what made it safe to try Mhmm. Because I knew what would work and what wouldn't and so I wasn't as afraid to mess it up but also we could talk about things and whether that was DID or something else, we could talk about anything and so there was no tiptoeing around things or secret keeping or think one issue that I'm having a struggle with right now is that I feel like when there are areas that I'm not allowed to talk about or process with friends or, like, mutual acquaintances, like my
Speaker 3:Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:My friend who knows
Speaker 3:Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:When I I can't talk about her at all and because she knows those boundaries, she doesn't talk about at all which is fine but also it's a big limit of our friendship when the biggest thing that I am working on in my life right now I can't share with you at all. So so I mean her not you but
Speaker 3:Yeah. No I get it. I get that.
Speaker 1:Like our friendship wasn't all about what we had been through together, but when we needed to talk about it or touch base, we could.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Do you remember once once Nathan said to you, I guess you and I had had a conversation or had come back together for some something and you told him, when Jeannie and I are together, the whole conversation doesn't have to be about sooner or later, we do cycle back to that. And he said, well, that's because it was your 09:11.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And he said, you know, his group of friends that he experienced 09:11 with because that was a common trauma they experienced together that the conversation will eventually make its way because it's such a huge piece of their life, you know, and and I remember thinking, yeah, that's why even though we can talk about other things and it doesn't have to be the focus, but we will like cycle back around to that because that was a place of deeper and deep trauma and also deep healing as we moved out for us. And there were some pieces that we both did on our own with when she was strictly our therapist. There were some pieces that we both did that were good, which added to the trauma because it made it so confusing, you know. It is so confusing.
Speaker 3:Well, is confusing when you grow to really care about someone and then when you are in a needing them place and then you realize this is this doesn't seem right when you have that cognitive dissonance, you know, always. And and I would say that that started in my relationship, which fairly early after we became friends. It there was always this thing. And there was it was the same thing I had as a kid when my parents started being part of that, like, evangelical Christian cult. I would go there, and all of the adults that I knew and loved were part of that and believed it.
Speaker 3:But everything kept ringing just a little bit off to me, but I was a kid, so I didn't have the skills to know. But just everything seemed off, but then it was like, well, it must be me that's off because all these people are really awesome Christians, and they're here with it, and they're buying into it. So it must be me that something is wrong with. And then when you realize when you become an adult or when you do your work and you realize, oh, that was a cult that my parents got wrapped up in because of the minister at the time that and their friends also got wrapped up in it. And that was just a bad, toxic, damaging thing.
Speaker 3:And I was right as a kid. I knew that as a kid, but I couldn't sort it out. So you knew a lot of stuff. I'm sure always things didn't seem right with just like the people, like the people that you grew to depend on. I'm sure it always seemed because they were toxic, but it took a while for that to unravel.
Speaker 3:But I'm sure you you had to probably have that feeling that this is gonna go bad, did you?
Speaker 1:I think I think I didn't even have the words for this is gonna go bad because everything was bad. I think for me the words came more as this can't be real. They're not going to stay. It's not going to work. Okay.
Speaker 1:And so so for example, this year I made a new friend. Well, it started last year. I had there was a new connection that I made that others were telling me that person is safe. That person is safe. You can share with her.
Speaker 1:So I tried to be brave and for practice, the same thing as I always do in this cycle of opening up and sharing pieces that I would never share with other people, but making an effort. And because they are friends together, it felt like a sort of built in safety net. But I was not getting anything back. So they were not a terrible person. Nothing bad happened.
Speaker 1:But it was not actually safe for me because what I needed was attunement. What I needed was response. What I needed was feedback and actual connection. And I wasn't getting any of that. If I initiated something, it was very politely received, very graciously received, and very generously received, but I did not get any pieces back at all.
Speaker 1:And so it made it too hard to build a relationship. And I thought, what is wrong with me that I still can't do this? Even when someone who is deemed as safe and all these people say are safe, I can't do it right. Like, what is wrong with me? And then my kids, the triplets, were in their we're gonna go to middle school meeting before the pandemic.
Speaker 1:And they started talking about things and the the counselor said that they were gonna do a Zoom meeting because it was right as the pandemic was starting. They were gonna do a Zoom meeting about social skills in middle school with my triplets in particular because my triplets need social skills. Gotcha. With autism and one of them is deaf, you know, like all these things. We have this special Zoom meeting, and one of the things the counselor said in this Zoom meeting is that if someone is actually your friend, they share pieces back.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:She talked about how pacing may be different, which kinda made me think of you. Like, you're absolutely a part of my life even though I live on like a test rack. Like I don't know. I'm not good at time. I fail the timepiece of consistency in that way, but on my experience, on my end of it through the test rack, like you're there and we're good.
Speaker 1:And so that feels solid and I don't have any concerns about that. And so I understand that for some people who like are time dependent or that's where their safety is, I would be a challenging friend because I'm not I'm not well enough and I say that most respectfully to be oriented well enough to that sort of process in a time centric world to function as a good friend. Not going to be able to show up for lunch every I totally
Speaker 3:get that with knowing you and having known you for lots of years.
Speaker 1:So that part is a challenge and I know that part's on me. But what she said was that other than and she called that pacing, which I kind of understood from the therapy context. But what she said was someone who is actually interested in your being your friend will also initiate, will also seek you out, and will also nurture you when it is your turn to connect.
Speaker 3:Exactly. That's exactly right.
Speaker 1:And so I have this new friend from last year and I thought, She I feel like she fits that. Jeanie fits that. I have for the first time some colleagues professionally which I've never had before but I thought So at some level, some of them more than others, but at some level they are starting to fit that. But this person that everyone else said is safe and wonderful has not been safe and wonderful for me. And I realized that it was okay for me to say they are a safe person, they are a good person, but they are not my person.
Speaker 3:That's that's exactly right. There may be nothing toxic about this person, nothing bad about this person, but they may not be that connection. And I'm gonna have to tell you, I had to learn too that there are some people and I am okay with time. I am good with time on giving time to friendships and those kinds of things. But there are different levels of friendship too because there are some people, I'm pretty intense, you're pretty intense.
Speaker 3:And so for me to have a friend that can match me at that, intense genie, always wanting to grow, those kinds of things.
Speaker 1:The gifted level.
Speaker 3:Is not very many people in my life. I mean, a handful. And then I have work friends that I really like and some that I'm pretty close to. I'm starting to be close to a few people at work. But I don't go.
Speaker 3:I they don't know my history. They don't know a lot of stuff at all. They only know me for who I am right here and right now, which is really wonderful. They don't even know that I used to weigh I mean, I've told them that I lost a 10 pounds, but they don't even know what I mean, I am totally thin genie that lives in California to them, you know. And so which was really kinda interesting to not bring all of that with me And I had to learn that that is not going to be all my teaching and everything, I mentioned that from time to time, but that is not the me that people here are beginning to know.
Speaker 1:That's so fascinating.
Speaker 3:So I mean, so as you grow and you're gonna find some people that have that intensity but it's not going to be very many. But the thing is too, let me tell you this, one thing different and I don't know how because I wasn't real healthy at the time but I guess I was healthy enough that you know, you were never, you were younger than me and like we talked about, I wasn't ever your therapist. I wasn't your mom. I wasn't your official tea. I wasn't your teacher, really.
Speaker 3:So I was never in one of those official, you know, authority roles to you, which may have helped. But you were never, to me, filling a need in me. You were a person that I enjoyed, that I loved, I grew to love. I I was able for some strange reason. I don't know why just because I would do it now, but I it did not bother me.
Speaker 3:Your didn't worry me. I just rolled with it, and then my family rolled with it. And so I could just let you be who you were without you having to be something for me. You know? And then you were something for me in that then you became a very good friend for me.
Speaker 3:And a person that I can go there with. But I didn't we didn't start in a way that I was filling your every need and you were filling my every need. We didn't have that, I think I almost want to call it, we didn't have that frenzy relationship, you know? A relationship wasn't built on. Because I don't think, I think you enjoyed me and needed me some because I was an older person you could trust.
Speaker 3:I was an adult. But you weren't also, you and I didn't have that crazy relationship ever. Like you're filling my every need and I'm filling your every need, so we we gotta be crazy. We didn't have that with each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so but you had that with with you had it with this lady, you had it with
Speaker 1:And it all went so wrong.
Speaker 3:But that was because you were both people drastically needing each other, filling needs for each other. And do you see that you and I weren't ever that, really? I mean, I think there was a there were some time that that you were probably I don't think you were ever really clingy with me. But you always, you know, I don't I don't think we have that peace. I think that was part of what was missing that made us more healthy.
Speaker 1:I think that's interesting because I think that also explains what's hard about my mother-in-law. I mean, she we got married and then my mother died just like that. Right? So fast. Right after we got married, she was killed.
Speaker 1:And my mother-in-law who is a bit intrusive, but because she is very generous but zero boundaries and giving and caring is very important to her which makes her have a lovely beautiful heart. For me was overwhelming especially after my mother was killed. And so that was very triggering to me and I had to say to her like you are not my mother and I don't need you to be my mother. Like we got along very well until my mother was killed. And then she tried to step into that role and I did not want her in that role.
Speaker 1:She has no idea how complicated and difficult my relationship with my mother was.
Speaker 3:Yes. Let's don't try to mimic that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:She has no idea how glad I was that my mother was dead, which I say with all due respect of humanity.
Speaker 3:I I you know when you say that, I 100% understand it. 100%. I mean, I know that it was also traumatic and horrible and really sad to lose your mother, They also understand the other piece too. It yes.
Speaker 1:Yes. And so I had to have these conversations trying to explain that to her and to ask for space, and it does not work. She just basically takes that as rejection of her and so anytime I set a boundary just to keep myself healthy it hurts her feelings and when you just said that I realized part of it is not about her being my mother. It's that she wants me to be her daughter because her daughter's moved away. Oh.
Speaker 1:And so you just explained that to me.
Speaker 3:Okay. She's needing something from you. And you know, I don't mean- I don't mean to say that we never need things from those people in our lives. Because there are times we do need things from them, but it's like we don't need them to be able to exist.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Or to feel like we're seen. I felt there was a time in my relationship with that I didn't feel seen or heard anywhere unless it was from her. You know?
Speaker 1:Did that happen?
Speaker 3:Because she was supposed to be our therapist and she entered into other relationships and you can't do that. It screws it up, you know.
Speaker 1:How did that even unfold do you think? Like when you try to tell that story, not that you do tell the story, but when you try to tell that story of how that unfolded how did it even happen that you were hanging out at her house and sleeping at her house and I was living there and she was our therapist. And other patients, other patients were there too. We were not the only ones.
Speaker 3:Oh no, we were. Yeah. Yeah, you know I look back and I'm gonna have to tell you this might sound kind of harsh, but I mean this, and I wasn't the first person to use this word, but, Rachel was. She said, well, I mean, you don't go back. Because I think I was asking her once when I had separated from will we ever be able to be friends again?
Speaker 3:And she said, Jeannie, you can't go back to your perpetrator.
Speaker 1:Say that again?
Speaker 3:She said you cannot go back, no one can go back and be healthy and go back to their perpetrator. And I feel like when I look back on pieces, I feel like she did kind of groom me and I'm sure she did you too. I mean, were little compliments that kind of crossed the line of, you know, therapists. Now that I've worked with two healthy therapists, you know, they were kind of like compliments that did and then in session, she would say, oh my gosh, we're, you and I are just so alike on those things, you know, those kind of things. And then it started with email and talking about books and reading the wolves book and having email conversations about that.
Speaker 3:And then it was like, do you want to talk about this at lunch? Right. How about you meet me at Steak and Ale after our sessions? You know, and that and that's where it went. I think the first time I went to her house was that I went with her to a thing at her church.
Speaker 3:You know, so it all you know, but I think all of those things in this session, I think she liked me. And I think as we made some progress, she got in her head that I was done with therapy and started grooming me to be her friend. Do you I mean, I remember, oh, it happened with you too, Emily. I remember her saying to me, when you come to my office, like, when I was totally her friend and not seeing her as therapy therapist anymore, she would say, don't come into my office. Just wait for me in the parking lot because I don't want people to know our connection, the people in my office that know you were my client.
Speaker 3:And so there was always this secret, know, that we couldn't quite tell. Which made me feel very special because gosh, she has secrets with me. You know?
Speaker 1:See? Okay.
Speaker 3:She did that with you too. Like she had she had to have a she and her partners had a fight about you living with her because it it was outside her code of ethics for that to happen. And a couple of her partners were like, you are opening your practice up for a lawsuit, you know. And you just can't do that. And, yeah, and so I think she told them she would get you a different you would start working with a different therapist, but you never did.
Speaker 3:She never made that happen.
Speaker 1:I remember that part that she said that she even told me that in front of someone, I had to go to a meeting. You know what? I think it was with doctor and some Okay. Somebody else, maybe the big tall guy Yeah. And somebody else.
Speaker 1:I don't remember who the other person was. It's fading from me. But oh, no. Now I do remember, but I don't know her name. But this short she was shorter.
Speaker 1:Like Anyway, I had to go to a meeting with them and they talked about I was going to get a different therapist and also she started me Doctor. Maas started me on Ritalin to reduce my switching and then
Speaker 3:Is that a thing? Is that a thing?
Speaker 1:I don't know if it's a thing or not, but it's the only time I've ever been on Ritalin was that year at Joe's house, and it was supposed to stop my switching and I never got another therapist.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, while I was living there, obviously, I've had a therapist since. Don't mean to
Speaker 3:miss Sure. Yeah. But while you were there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But what you're saying about how being the secret helped you feel special and was part of your grooming, I think that is something that we had that was different in my most recent experience because since I was groomed as a child and have since learned about grooming to now in the place where I am supposed to be safe when now time is supposed to be safe, to be the secret is actually very triggering for me and very distressing for me. And it is the opposite of special and feels very dangerous. And so it has been difficult for me to sort out even what is real and who is real and who is not. And I literally can't talk to anyone about it besides you and Nathan.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. You can't talk you couldn't talk to him about it?
Speaker 1:No. I mean, I don't know if that's what's happening with now or what did happen. Oh, Or if that really changed or it didn't or I oh, it's really, really I'm in a mess.
Speaker 3:Have you seen me at all since then?
Speaker 1:She came one time. We met just one time. We met halfway between in Kansas City at a park for her to give me back my cochlear implant batteries and some journals that I had left at her office. That was that was the only
Speaker 3:time. Did you all discuss that that's was that like a breakup maybe?
Speaker 1:It felt like it. She was returning all my stuff but she knew she knew then. That was, like, almost a year ago in October. She knew that I was not coming back, and I had a new therapist already by that time.
Speaker 3:Okay. So it doesn't seem like it was toxic to you. Right? No. It just seems like when you were in the situation that started feeling like old situations.
Speaker 1:Oh, like a trigger? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Do you think?
Speaker 1:That makes sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Because because there have to be experiences where you accidentally show up a place where your therapist is, and neither one of you knew. It was totally unplanned. You know, it wasn't a it it wasn't a being groomed or please be my best friend thing. It was it's just an accident and I could see that if that happened, if that had ever happened with me and Rachel or ever happened with my therapist now, I think we would just be polite but not make any moves that made it obvious that we had any connection.
Speaker 3:You know? Yeah. So maybe that did start did it start to feel really unsafe to you? Or just you didn't know what to do and you panicked?
Speaker 1:I think there was some panic. She said I can still write to her if I want to, that she would her the quote is, I put it in my journal so I wouldn't forget, something about her always cheering me on, which was very neutral and appropriate and but she doesn't she's not responsive either like that other lady. Yeah. So it's mostly just been a grief. And I think part of why the grief is so big is because she held so many pieces, not just in therapy but in time because it does go all the way back to So she's the only person besides you that I've known my whole life.
Speaker 1:Although, she she does not remember me from that time period at all.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:I remember her, but she does not remember me.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I can see where that would be a grief because you did have different levels of connection on her and just somebody else. But but maybe that just needs to be you probably did some good work with her too, right? Did you?
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Then, you know, maybe just try to grieve that and just then become try to just focus on being grateful for it and just know that it was time to move on. Yeah. You know, that that that didn't it it didn't have it wasn't it doesn't sound to me like it necessarily went to a toxic place.
Speaker 1:So but that's why I have to let it go entirely because I don't want it to be toxic.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, that protects her and protects me.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So the place that leaves me in is that my two other friends besides you know her. And on most days, like I was saying earlier, on most days, that's not a big deal, especially because there's a pandemic. So I know, like, when they have a birthday party or something, I'm never gonna go ever because they were friends first, and they need to be there. And I don't like parties anyway, so it makes sense for me to be the one to bow out.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:But right now, there's a pandemic, so it's been easier and not really an issue. But in the future, like, that's just something I already know. But Mhmm. What has been hard as far as friendship is that I've been very alone in my grief because they are healthy. And so because they are healthy, they are good at those boundaries.
Speaker 1:So they don't talk about her at all. And Mhmm. If I say even if I say, I sent her a card today, or if I say, I found this quote. Like, the quote I was telling you about, I sent that.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I've just oh, this finally explains this, and I just wanted to share I found the information, and that's all, which she totally didn't respond to. But for me, it's like a touching base. And I know like, I told her I'm trying to let go. Like, I am on the patch. And, like, I don't need to send her every quote I found just because it brings me closure.
Speaker 1:Like, I get that. Yeah. But but even if I say, I found this quote and I sent it I sent her to the like, they don't even respond to that then because there's a connection. So, like, they're healthy about it, but the process of that is very painful and very isolating. And so it's hard to be in that at the same time as learning how to connect because it feels disconnecting.
Speaker 3:Oh, I totally yeah. I get that.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense? It's really hard to say, and I have struggled for almost a year to find words for it.
Speaker 3:It does make sense, and it is a challenge. And you know what? Sometimes there are things that are challenges in relationships, and that's okay if what they do give to you and you are able to give to them is worth it. And it's not a sacrificing of yourself. I think lots of times, I felt like and you may have felt like like if I didn't share that piece or if I wasn't able to talk, I'm sacrificing who I am or I can't be everything that I am.
Speaker 3:But but you don't have to be. You can process that in another place with other people and then be with them what you are with them. And that that's not keeping a secret. It's just that everybody doesn't need to know every piece of you. If you have two or three people in your lifetime that do, that's enough.
Speaker 3:You know?
Speaker 1:But that's why you need more than one person.
Speaker 3:That's why you need more than one person because different people give you different things. And, I mean, like, Joe, who I'm closest to, he doesn't know a lot of the pieces that you know about me and about my growth and about my struggle because he's not the person that I would process that with. You know? I mean, he and he is willing to listen to anything and be there, but he doesn't process the way I do. And so that connection isn't there.
Speaker 3:But then we have awesome connections other ways. You know? So so even your best, best relationships don't have to have every piece of you.
Speaker 1:I tried to sabotage these relationships after all this went down and they're like we're not actually letting you go because you're worth keeping.
Speaker 3:Well good, Good. Yeah. But, I mean, it could be that you're just gonna have to grieve and work through thing outside of those relationships. And if those relationships are really gonna be good for you, then it's worth it. And it's okay that they're not part of that process.
Speaker 3:Not everybody is part of everything. Does that make sense to you?
Speaker 1:It does.
Speaker 3:But I think we used to think I think we used to believe and used to live that there's someone or there's one or two people that are gonna be everything. And you know, I just turned 60 and there's not. There's not someone that's gonna be everything. You know? Not everything, at all.
Speaker 3:You know? And I have my sister who I'm close to, but I didn't process all my growth and all those struggles with her. We did, we touched on that a little bit, but then I have that history with her that I don't have with anyone else. Oh, except my brother that I forget about. But, you know, so she has these really important pieces of me from us growing up in the same home and everything that no one else has.
Speaker 1:My brother told me several years ago that if he ever caught me talking to you again, he would never speak to me again. That's why I was scared to add you on Facebook, which is so silly because I'm not even on Facebook hardly ever. Like, my blog will post there automatically.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:But I'm not I don't ever just get on there and scroll. I'm not on it. And
Speaker 3:I don't think he he I remember once you telling me that he does not remember me from middle school, from junior high, from being his teacher. He remembers me, I think you told me once, from the joke time, I think. Yes. So he thinks, I, so I'm sure he thinks, which is probably not long for him to think, he probably thinks I was tied into all of to that piece, and that is not good for you.
Speaker 1:That that is that is correct. He only remembers that you were a part of her. He doesn't remember the context, and he only sees that she was bad. He does not see the things that she did that was good, which made it extra confusing when he was, like, splitting for me so that I couldn't untangle it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. There you go.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But you know what Nathan said? When I was telling him we were gonna talk and do this little interview, he said, your brother doesn't talk to you anyway. I was like Oh, yeah. Oh, that's true.
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