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On the WorkWell Podcast, Jen Fisher — Human Sustainability Leader at Deloitte and Editor-at-Large, Human Sustainability at Thrive Global — sits down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations about how we can develop a way of living and working built on human sustainability, starting with ourselves.
Jen (00:00):
Public speaking has always been a fear of mine. So when I got invited to give a talk at TEDx Miami, I was both really excited and incredibly nervous. So how does someone overcome their anxiety of public speaking to share their story with the world? This is the Work Well podcast series by Deloitte. Hi, I'm Jen Fisher, and I'm so pleased to be here with you today to talk about all things purpose, wellbeing, and human sustainability. I'm here with Karen Eber. She's the c e o and Chief Storyteller of Eber Leadership Group. She's also an author, speaker, and consultant on culture transformation and leadership development. Karen's book the Perfect story, how to tell stories that inform influence and inspire, make storytelling accessible with practical and impactful steps for anyone to tell the perfect story for any occasion. As a successful TEDx speaker herself, Karen was my own TEDx coach and storytelling guru storytelling. Karen, welcome to the show.
Karen (00:59):
So happy to be here today.
Jen (01:01):
Yeah, so I'm super excited to talk about this and have this conversation with you. I've been getting a ton of questions about my TEDx experience, and so I thought I'd do a show about it and who better to do that show with, but you. Um, so Karen,
Karen (01:17):
Well, first, congratulations, Jen. It's a huge feat to take an idea to work it through the process as many times as you did, and hopefully to see the reaction that you're getting.
Jen (01:29):
Yeah, we can, we can talk about how many times I actually rehearsed , but I first wanna start, um, in like, tell me how you became passionate about storytelling, because so much of what I took away from the TEDx experience was the power of storytelling. So what, what was that like for you?
Karen (01:50):
Well, if we frame it in your talk, if you had just gotten up and talked about, it's so important to be able to, um, have wellness as a part of your culture, and you cited all this research and listed very factual things, you would have some heads nodding, but people wouldn't remember it a few minutes later. The story allows people to connect and it's sticky and it brings people in. And once I realized, wow, you tell a story to someone and you feel like you know them, even if you've never met them or you hear someone's story and you just have more empathy towards them, I thought, why are we just doing this with friends? Why are we not including this as a part of our communication?
Jen (02:33):
Yeah, it, it's so true. And I think the TEDx experience and getting to know you better and going through the processes that you laid out for me, um, I, you know, I mean, really, not that I didn't believe in the power of storytelling. I think I believed that I was never very good at it, . Um, so I, I I couldn't agree more.
Karen (02:56):
Let me ask you though, because we worked on this a year together, which is quite, uh, an investment of time and attention, and when you came, you definitely had a little bit of, of, um, concern, pause, whatever the right word is around. How would you do this and what story would you tell, what was your thought process when you started?
Jen (03:18):
Meaning like, why did I wanna give a TED Talk? Or like, what story did I wanna tell?
Karen (03:24):
Let's start with why you wanted to give a TED Talk.
Jen (03:27):
Yeah. You know, I have no idea. .
Jen (03:32):
I mean, I think, um, I, I have a lot of passion around, um, really wanting to, to help others and to help others see a different path to, you know, living well and working well. And so I think part of my mission or part my mission as a person and a human being is to, um, you know, be a, a role model of that and like in how I live my life. And so for me, um, I, I think storytelling is a huge part of that. Whether or not I processed it that way, I, I'm not sure. But, you know, sharing my experiences to help others see a different way or see a different path is, is core to like my mission and who I am. And so, I don't know exactly like how that translated into me wanting to give a TEDx talk. I felt, I think I felt like it was just like the next right step for me to do. Um, it was something that like, felt, always felt like it was way, way, way, way out on my vision board until the day that I got the email from TEDx Miami saying, all right, you're confirmed to give your Ted talk. And then I was like, oh, crap, I guess I really have to do this now, .
Karen (04:57):
But lemme ask a follow up question. 'cause your talk involves a very personal story and it's vulnerable, and there's, you know, people have different perspectives on, on their comfort level with that comfort. When you were thinking of giving the TEDx and knowing that you wanted to focus on wellbeing, what were your thoughts around sharing an intimate experience like that?
Jen (05:19):
Um, I guess, you know, for me, like the very, very first time that I spoke so openly and vulnerably about my own struggles, particularly with my mental health, um, was in a Harvard Business Review article that, um, I co-wrote with a, a good friend of yours, and I and Karen, uh, Diana O'Brien. And, um, you know, we wrote it from the perspective of, you know, her helping me with my struggles. And then, you know, later on down the line, um, me actually actually, you know, in, in a position of Chief wellbeing officer in a position as somebody leading wellbeing, actually helped her through some of her struggles. And so why it was so important to create these environments in the workplace in particular. And I remember the moment that that article got published, and like, my heart sunk, and I was like, what have I done ?
Jen (06:21):
Why am I sharing this so openly and so publicly? And I, I felt, I mean, it was very vulnerable. Um, and, and I, you know, and and I questioned it until, you know, about 45 minutes after the article was published, and there was just an outpouring of people reaching out, thanking us, sharing their own stories, talking about what it meant to them. And, and it was less about that and more about kind of, wow, we just created space and permission for all of these people who read this article to be, to, to feel seen and to feel heard, and to know that, you know, they aren't alone. Whether or not they had the same exact experience or not, it didn't matter. And so, I, I guess that was like my first foray into speaking very openly and vulnerably. And because of the response and the reaction, it validated for me that we needed to do more of this as leaders and as human beings and as friends, as and as colleagues, we need to show up and be human for each other.
Jen (07:23):
And so I think that just solidified it as part of like, okay, this is, this is, you know, this is gonna matter in what I wanna accomplish and what my mission is. Um, and so it was something that I sought out to do more of, um, in my own way. Right? And so absolutely there are things that, um, I don't share about my life, , that, you know. And so I think, you know, there, there are things that I'm very vulnerable about, but there, everybody has their limits. And I think it looks very different, but I think in my work and in my mission, um, it it's just what's called upon, um, for me in the way that I wanna make an impact.
Karen (08:02):
Yeah. It sounds like because it's in service of helping people hear this story and connect with it and and think about what it means for them, it feels less vulnerable in some ways.
Jen (08:14):
Yeah. And that's the way I perceive it, you know, is that it's not about me and my story. It's about helping others feel seen and heard. Um, and I think maybe that makes me feel better about being so vulnerable, . I suppose if I didn't get a positive response, maybe I'd feel a little bit differently. .
Karen (08:34):
So take us through, you get this email, you say you're gonna be giving this talk for TEDx. You have the vague idea of what you wanna talk about. How, how was it for you hard, was it for you to crystallize an idea? And, and how much did your idea change throughout the process?
Jen (08:49):
Well, I think the first thing that we should say is, um, that I knew you, Karen. We had, you know, obviously worked together, um, but then, you know, started to get to know each other a little bit later on. And I was surprised that there was, you know, such a thing as a TEDx coach, I know that that's not all you are or all that you do. Um, but, you know, I, I guess for me, you know, to crystallize the idea, how much did it change through the process? I'd actually love to know your perspective on it. 'cause you were there with me every step, step of the way. And I don't think that I would've given the talk that I gave if it wasn't for the work that we did together. And so how hard was it to crystallize the idea? Um, I think for you, you kind of knew, but I came into that first meeting that we had, and I feel like I had like nine or 10, 10 different ideas that we charted out on a board.
Jen (09:52):
Um, and I, you know, and somehow we ended up in a place that maybe we didn't communicate or tell a story that included all nine of those ideas. But I think we got like six of 'em . Um, you know, and so it was, that was where storytelling kind of really came to life. To me. It was like, how do you take all of these related experiences and or concepts and weave them into a story that actually is meaningful and has power and can be impactful to people? And so I feel like for me, it was difficult to like crystallize the idea, but then once we did, I don't feel like it changed very much at all. Like, I think once we honed in on it, I was locked in and I was like, okay, this is it. And it's funny 'cause I, I remember , you know, conversations that you and I had when I was rehearsing with different people and people were giving me feedback about what they liked or didn't like, or what they thought I should change or what they thought I should do.
Jen (10:56):
Um, and you said to me, you're gonna get to a point where, you know, like you're just locked in and you know, you're not going to want to take any more feedback for people, and that's not a bad thing. Right? And so I think that actually happened pretty quickly for me, um, was that, you know, like, okay, this is the story. This is exactly what I wanted to be. Did we tweak some of the words and some of the language and move some of the pieces around here and there? Yeah. But I think we, I, I feel like we wa we locked in on it pretty quickly.
Karen (11:26):
Yeah. You know, you, you started by saying that, um, you weren't even aware that TEDx coaches existed and that the journey is challenging. And I think you illustrated why you have all of these ideas and lived experiences, but sometimes having someone that can help you step back and look a little more objectively and work the process is what's needed to crystallize an idea. You know, I hear so many leaders say, I wanna give a TED light talk. And what they mean is, I wanna speak 15 minutes and not be interrupted . But that doesn't mean that the person listening comes away with any more insight on what they're trying to say. A TED talk is really about crystallizing an idea that is worth sharing and doing so in a really succinct way. This, you know, 12 to 15 minutes is meant to capture the audience's attention, connect to their hearts, and introduce some, some ideas, introduce something that they can think about.
Karen (12:27):
And so you are taking, you know, a whole career's worth of ideas and trying to crystallize that into what is important to say. And also, how do I put the story on top of it so that people can hear this idea that, you know, burnout was harder for me in many ways than navigating cancer and recovery, um, because of the visibility and support. So I agree. I don't think the idea changed so much, as much as it was like looking through a camera lens. And it just kept becoming more and more in focus as we tightened the aperture from a change standpoint. We cut it twice. The first version, I think, like you said, had many points and we cut it in half to make sure we were really getting clear on the idea and then trimmed even more to get it even tighter. But it wasn't changing the, the meaning or takeaway. It was making it easier for the audience to follow. Yeah.
Jen (13:25):
And I think that was a really like important shift for me, or like moment for me was like in, it was about me sharing my story. Yes. But you were very, um, magical in, in the way that you like, coached me or helped me, like connect with the audience, right? And so, yes, I am sharing my personal story, but sharing it in a way that helps me connect with them and them connect with me, even though my story isn't their exact lived experience. And so can you talk a little bit about that?
Karen (14:12):
Yeah. We started really thinking through who your audience was, and there were two categories. One were all the people that were gonna be in the hall listening to the story live, and the other were the people that would watch the recording. And you have to plan for both. If you don't engage the audience in the hall, you end up with a flatter recording and it might not be as interesting. And if you only focus on the recording, you don't g engage the people in the hall. And so when you looked at the people in the audience, not all of them work in a Fortune 500 professional services type environment, you know, they all have a variety of experiences, but they all have struggled with challenges and burnout and probably know people that have struggled with difficult illnesses. And so the opening story, we really focused on how do we make this something that anyone in person or on the tape can connect with, even if they haven't seen that, how do we describe what was happening in a way that people were familiar with it? And so there were certain phrases that we included, like, um, you know, no one asked you for 15 minutes when you're going through chemo for a 15 minute meeting, a lot of people can identify with that. Finding those little things to put in so that the person that is watching this in person or on a video can say, oh, I get it. Yeah, I've had that. Or, I can understand that was the goal. And I think part of why people are responding so well to it. What has the response been so far?
Jen (15:50):
The response has been a really amazing, um, I, I think what fascinates me or what's like most interesting to me and excites me the most is like different parts of the talk resonate with different people. Obviously that's obvi, you know, like that, that I expected. But it, it kind of goes back to that story that I was talking about. You know, the, the article that Diana and I wrote is that I think what's most meaningful to me is that somebody, a piece of the talk resonates with somebody. They reach out and then they go on to share a very personal story about themselves and why what I said mattered to them or, or, or helped them be, you know, feel seen and heard. That's what you know, means the most to me. You know, I think there's a, there's a lot of people that are like, yes, this was a fantastic talk, congratulations.
Jen (16:48):
But it's those people that saw themselves in my talk and that are, that are kind of taking the time to say, this is what you said and this is why it matters to me, or this is what it meant to me in, in my life. Um, and even potentially, like some people have told me that, like what they're going to do differently or how I change their view or their mindset. And I remember Karen thinking, like, you and I had a few conversations, and I even talked with my husband about it is, you know, I had some concern, or I had a little bit of reservation in, um, the, the comparison or, or saying that, you know, cancer to me, in many ways felt easier than burnout and making that comparison because even though it was my lived experience, I wanted to make sure that I wasn't downplaying in any way a cancer diagnosis or any life-threatening or chronic illness.
Jen (17:47):
Um, but the point being is that, you know, there are so many invisible illnesses or invisible things that people struggle with, um, that don't get the same sort of care and reaction that should. Um, but I, I still remember the, the, the several conversations that you and I had where I felt, you know, very concerned, like, oh, are people going to get upset or offended by this or disagree with this? Um, but I, I ended up getting comfortable with it. And there are a lot of people that have reached out, um, on that specific point and what, you know, what saying that has meant to them. Um, because there's, you know, illnesses that are very physically noticeable that come with their own set of challenges. And I'm not downplaying those in any way, shape, or form, but there's a lot of also invisible illnesses, um, that we never know that the person sitting right next to us is struggling with. And those matter just as much.
Karen (18:43):
You know, there were a few ideas in your talk that were intentionally put in light that to, um, provoke intrigue the idea that you're right, there are these visible things that we have no idea about or aren't supporting in the same way is meant to give pause. It's not about, you know, one is easier than the other. It's, it's really, yeah, this is, you're right. We are so good about supporting the visible things and not the others. Um, you know, another one that I've noticed that people have picked up on, on, on social media is this sentence that you can be high performing in incredibly unwell . Yeah. You know, just 'cause you're high performing doesn't mean that you're, well, right, that's another one, right? These are these unexpected statements. Um, that's something that's key to a TED talk. You, you're not trying to just get up there and say the most obvious things.
Karen (19:36):
The goal is to really build an idea and how to expand thinking and maybe draw comparisons or slow the assumptions that the audience might have. Um, because otherwise, you know, it ends up being this really predictable talk that people are gonna tune out of. And so there was a reason why we went with that story, to, to cast intrigue. And, you know, when people are doing TEDx, if you're just getting up and, and sharing an idea in a really obvious way, then it's not gonna have as much stickiness as when you're able to connect with the audience, help them see the experience, but still surprise them by helping them think differently. By the way you're framing the different ideas.
Jen (20:19):
Yeah. That one has been resonating. The other one, um, is, you know, productivity doesn't always equal wellbeing. That one's been resonating and has led to several conversations of, well, does flexibility equal wellbeing, ? And I don't think flexibility always equals wellbeing either. So maybe that's part of my next talk .
Karen (20:40):
Well, and really a talk is meant to do this, right? It's an idea worth spreading, which means discussing and Yeah. And debating and thinking and considering, which was, you know, the whole intent.
Jen (20:51):
Yeah. And I think the other thing that's been really meaningful is, is several of my colleagues at Deloitte and also others outside of Deloitte, have told me that they shared the talk with their teams specifically to then, you know, have a conversation or spur a conversation around burnout and wellbeing. And to have that real conversation of, Hey, you know, this, this is real, and this might exist on our team. You might be experiencing it and opening up that conversation and that safe space to be able to talk about it or to be able to talk about the ways in which we're working and whether or not they're actually working for people. And so that to me is exactly the way that I want the talk to be used.
Karen (21:35):
Nice.
Jen (21:36):
So let's talk about data . Yeah. Um, because, you know, I, we had a bunch of conversations about data too, because some of the feedback that I got along the way was that I needed to use more data in my talk to convince people of what I was saying was real, and to show them the data. And, um, I, I think my immediate response to that was, well, I'm not a good presenter when it comes to data. Like, I don't like numbers. generally, like, it makes me uncomfortable. And you had some great advice for me, but you also went down the path with me of saying, okay, well what if we did ask, you know, what if we did include more data? What would that look like? And what would that feel like for you? And so we tried it and I didn't end up going in that direction. So when we kind of had that conversation about like, what changed and what didn't change, I feel like we tried to go down the path of more data, and I was like, eh, Karen, this doesn't feel right to me. Like, it doesn't feel like the story that I wanna tell. So talk me through like when to use data, when not to use data. Like what's your advice on that and what was it that you told me during that time?
Karen (22:50):
Dan, there's layers of what using data means, because I'm not sure how we got to the place where we feel like using data or presenting data means that you are putting up a ream of paper and charts and graphs and all of that. You can build a talk or a presentation or an idea on research and not mention statistics and cite all of these different things. Um, of course, giving credit we're due, not plagiarizing, but, you know, there's so many layers to how you talk about data. And so what was clear is that there was going to be a lot of research informing the talk. However, it wasn't important to pack a bunch of numbers or percentages or graphs into the presentation. I'm a big believer that data doesn't change our behavior. Emotions do mm-hmm. , which there's research on how we make decisions and how we make decisions subconsciously based on our emotions.
Karen (23:48):
So if you think of, um, you know, when you take a photo on your phone and it gets stamped with the date, the location, the f-stop, all this stuff is like automatically stored on it. Something similar happens as we take in information through our senses, they get stored with emotions and experiences. And as we go to make decisions, our brain goes and consults those past files to see what, to predict what they wanna draw upon. And so we're making decisions based on our emotions and our experiences, not on data. This happens subconsciously. And at that point, we're becoming aware is where we're applying the logic and rationalization. So what was most important is to bring, connect people to the emotions of the research, connect them to what is true about high performance or what is true about burnout. And do that in a way where they're understanding it.
Karen (24:42):
They're not just hearing the problems around burnout. They're, they're feeling what that could be, you could have packed the talk full of numbers and statistics, but that would not have yielded any different response. And in some cases the audience wouldn't have remembered it and probably would've tuned out. So there was some data in there, and of course, the whole talk is, is based on it. Yeah. But it doesn't take away from the idea by not saying, you know, in 2003, the study out of whatever said, you know, whatever, um, data should be included to inform what you're trying to do. But this bias that you have to, uh, pack everything full of data just isn't quite true. You need far less than you think and presentations. It's often one or two things that are helping reinforce the idea.
Jen (25:31):
Yeah. And, and I mean, I, I know a specific one was, um, you know, data around around burnout rates. Um, and, you know, we did go down that path and I, I remember thinking and kind of feeling like, wow, I like it. I'm not, like if it, I'm not gonna convince anybody that burnout is real by putting more data on a screen or citing, you know, the rates of burnout, but I might convince them that burnout is real if they don't believe it by sharing my personal experience around it, because they might be able to relate to it themselves and not realize it, or at least somebody they know or care about or love, um, might be exhibiting, you know, some of those behaviors or having some of those experiences. And so I think for me, that's why like packing more data in, you know, you can go to your favorite wherever you read the news, right? , there's not a day that goes by there. We can't read something about how bad burnout is. But you know, that's not, like, that wasn't my goal was to, you know, to try to give you so much data that you then believed it.
Karen (26:44):
Well, and the challenge is that, let's say you had put up that I, I don't remember what the statistic was, but let's say that 45% of people are impacted by burnout. Now, before you put up that number, if you had asked, uh, sampling of people, do you think burnout is an issue? You would probably get a, a majority north of, I don't know, 80%. But if you put up the 45%, some of the people are gonna look at that and say, wow, that's really high. That's a problem. Other people are gonna say, 45% is nothing. Right? And then other people are gonna say, what's the source of your data? I don't believe it. And you've already taken them out of this idea that we would've agreed at the onset is a problem. And so you have to be thoughtful about how you're using your data, because if it's gonna end up in this debate about the quality and the value it's bringing, then it's detracting from the idea you're trying to build. Yeah.
Jen (27:34):
Yeah.
Karen (27:35):
Let's shift a little bit, because building the talk was one piece of it, but at a certain point you've gotta take that talk and you've gotta bring it to life. And I know that, um, when we first started working together, you were nervous about speaking publicly.
Jen (27:51):
I still am . Okay,
Karen (27:53):
Fair. What are tactics do you use? How do you start to feel more comfortable?
Jen (27:57):
Um, so some of the tactics I used, well, first of all, you know, we alluded to it at the beginning. I, I practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced by myself and practiced with anybody that would listen. I'm actually surprised that I didn't walk up to strangers and practiced on the street with them, um, but close enough because I would walk my dog in the morning and, you know, recite the talk in my head. Um, so I mean, I think, you know, that the, the, the path that I went down was I, I memorized it, right? And then like, once I got through the memorization, then I feel like that was when you really started to kind of push me and coach me on making it not feel like a memorized talk . Um, but I think for me, the comfort came in memorizing it, but I was also like really aware of the fact that like, if I memorize it, I can't.
Jen (28:55):
'cause I, I did notice, like as I was memorizing it, I would get stuck in, I would get in my own way by kind of getting stuck on like, oh, what was the exact word I was supposed to say? And so I know, you know, we worked through some of that. That was, you know, just the, the way that, um, the way that you helped me structure the talk for it to be kind of, you know, conversational or feel like, you know, it wasn't completely memorized. But I think what helped me with my anxiety was practicing a lot , um mm-hmm. , you know, practicing in a, like in front of a bunch of different people. Like not just people that I work with, but people like friends all walks of life, people that do things, different things for a living to make sure that the message was resonating with them.
Jen (29:44):
Um, but also just getting me, you know, comfortable with being in front of people. And then also along the way, you know, I do a lot of like, fireside chats and panels and things like that. And so I know you had me like, you know, use pieces of the talk along the way to kind of test it out to feel comfortable. So even though it wasn't the whole talk, I was starting to incorporate the concepts and the ideas into other speaking things that I was doing where it felt more comfortable for me. There was just something about like the TEDx stage. You're standing on the red dot, everybody's staring at you , you know, that kind of feels very different than doing a fireside chat and having a conversation or being on a panel. So we started to really incorporate those into other more comfortable situations to help, um, Aleve my anxiety.
Karen (30:38):
Yeah. So at risk of defying everything we just said about data, let's give a number. How many times do you think you practiced the talk?
Jen (30:46):
Oh, at least a hundred, if not more. Yeah, I think my husband, I think my husband would agree that, and we had, we had like a, a secret agreement that night of the talk that like, if I forgot my lines, he could just yell it out because he knew it as well as I did .
Karen (31:00):
So what, what was the moment for you where you felt it all come together?
Jen (31:05):
Uh, so this is the famous, like Jen, you know, get outta your house, get out of your home office, go stand on the sea wall. Um, so you and I had had several practices together, um, several conversations and um, you know, I, you, you had given me the advice of, you know, we were talking about tone of voice, but we were also talking about like body movements and how to engage with your body and like discomfort in, you know, like my gestures feeling too grand or me feeling uncomfortable with that. And you said to me, Jen, you need to get, like, you need to get out of your workspace because first it feels like work. And then second of all, you need to get into an expansive space because that's what it's gonna feel like on stage. And so I live down in Miami. I live right across the street from a seawall.
Jen (31:56):
And you said, Jen, go out on the seawall, and practice your talk. And you said like, make your movements like as big and dramatic as you think you can. 'cause you're never gonna be that big and dramatic on stage, or it's never going to be perceived as that big or dramatic, even though it feels that way. Um, and so that's what I did. I went out on the seawall and I'm sure there were lots of people walking by thinking like, what in the world is this woman doing? Um, but I think it was probably like, it was, it was two or three weeks before the talk. I mean, it wasn't like months in advance of the talk that you told me to do that. So I think your pacing and your timing was like right on point. So I didn't peak too soon, . Um, but that was really that moment of wait, okay, now I know what it feels like to be kind of in this expansive space where I, in a way I almost felt like smaller, but that was good, right? Because I was just like, I, and I'm sure there's some science and psychology about that, that you will tell us about, but it was, you know, everything else around me felt so big that I didn't feel so nervous or ridiculous. .
Karen (33:04):
Yeah. It was intentional. Yeah. To, for the listener that might give a talk, this is an important tip because it was intentional. If the first time you felt that openness and smallness was when you walked on the stage, you would've fumbled. But the point of doing this a little earlier is it intentionally leaves you feeling exposed. There's something about when there's nothing in front of your midsection that triggers vulnerability. This is why we like, get in the fetal position when we're feeling uncomfortable or safe or protecting our core. And so this was meant to give you that feeling of exposure so that you could get used to delivering it that way with nothing around you. And having that openness, because that practicing that is such an important step whenever you're gonna be giving some type of talk when you're elevated on a stage. Yeah.
Jen (33:53):
So that was, that was the moment .
Karen (33:56):
Nice.
Jen (33:57):
So, um, let, I wanna ask you about the day of, 'cause you were there every step of the way with me and I, you know, like I was so, I was so nervous the day of, like, even though I had practiced, I knew I was ready. Like there wasn't another single thing that I could've done or would've done differently leading up to that day. Um, but I was still really nervous. And so you had some great tips. You brought me this little care package bag of, of things to do, ways to help me center myself while waiting backstage and even right before I went on stage. So can you share some of those tips with us?
Karen (34:36):
Yeah, I did give you a little package. This is for anybody that speaks, it's just an emergency package of like safety pins, lip balm, breath mitts. Um, sometimes when we're nervous, our mouths get really dry. And so the breath mints are there where you pop one a couple minutes before going on stage, and then you get natural moisture in your mouth so you're not feeling like you're talking with cotton balls. The other stuff was really in case of emergency, you don't wanna be worrying about your outfit, needing some type of safety pin or something. Um, I always have stress toys, something to squeeze, you know, a TEDx has a lot of sitting around and waiting time. And so, um, that's when those thoughts start growing in your head because you have nothing to do, but wait. And so having things to keep your hands busy and focus on other things can make a difference. And so that's what we did. We just focused on keeping moving until it was time to walk out.
Jen (35:31):
Yeah. Moving. And, um, you know, even like the couple of days before, before you know, you, you would tell me like, don't, don't practice your talk when you're walking your dog anymore. Put like headphones in and listen to a song that, you know, makes you feel, helps you feel empowered and excited. And so there were, there were tons of little tips along the way that were, I think, that we're invaluable, like, to getting up on, on that stage. I, you know, one of my biggest fears, probably one of many people's biggest fears that maybe holds them back, I know it did for me for a long time, is like, what if you freeze on stage? And I know we talked about that several times, so like, it didn't happen to me. I feel very fortunate that that didn't happen to me. You said to me, just go out there and, you know, once you, once you say your first line, it's just gonna flow. And you were right. But what advice do you have for someone if they do, if they do freeze on stage,
Karen (36:28):
I'm gonna let you in on a secret that most people don't know. That happens quite frequently on TED and TEDx stages. People just get brain overload and they go blank and it is completely fine. People respond to that vulnerability. There's nothing to be embarrassed about. The audience is supportive. And even if it's not the TED stage, people are not upset or mad that you blank. They want you to be successful and they cheer you on. So if you freeze on stage, you freeze on stage, ask someone in the audience where you left off, walk off stage and collect yourself, make a joke about it. Whatever helps you get back into it. It's not any type of failure. If your mind goes blank on, on something, it's, we're human and that's totally fine.
Jen (37:13):
Yeah, it's so true. And I, you know, I think that was one of the like biggest ahas that I had when I first started going to see live Ted Ted Talks and TEDx Talks, talk talks. Couldn't get that word out. Um, is that , is that, I don't think I realized that they're edited, right? And so when you see them live, um, a lot of times you, you know, you do see when people freeze or make mistakes and things like that. And, um, and then you don't actually see them on the recording, um, as as much. And so I went in thinking like, oh my gosh, all of these people, all of these, like hundreds of thousands of people that have given a TED Talk or TEDx talk are like perfect speakers and they're not. 'cause there's no such thing, there's no such thing as a perfect speaker is what you learn . Exactly.
Karen (38:00):
They're human speakers. Yeah. But let's, let's round out, what is your best advice for someone who dreams of giving a TEDx talk?
Jen (38:07):
Um, I would say, first of all, do it. Um, I'm so glad that I did. Um, even though there I had many moments of like, oh my gosh, what in the world am I doing? Um, but also I think something that was really, really important to me in the months leading up to the TEDx talk, and I wrote my newsletter about this, was this recognition and, and you had given me this advice, Karen too, was that I needed to, th there were thing, there were other things in my life that I needed to stop doing and saying no to in order to create the pro appropriate space for me to do my TEDx talk and to do it well. Um, because I was starting to notice, you know, a I was a lot more tired, a lot more fatigued. Um, I was cranky , you know, 'cause I was trying to kind of maintain my whole full life in addition to, you know, doing a really great TEDx talk, which is hard.
Jen (39:04):
And so I had to adjust a lot of things and say no to things. I stopped recording this podcast for a period of time. I actually stopped reading. I loved to read. Um, but I just felt like my brain was full. I couldn't take in any more information without kind of confusing or conflicting with, with the talk. I recognized that I was needing more sleep. I recognized that I, you know, needed to move my body in different ways. And so I adjusted my workout so that they weren't so intense, so they weren't draining me so much. So I had more energy to give to the talk. And so I think that level of self-awareness and, um, just being open to adjusting other things in your life and knowing that saying no to those is, is saying yes to giving the best talk that you're capable of giving.
Karen (39:48):
Nice.
Jen (39:48):
What about you? What's your best advice? Because you've given a talk too. We haven't, we didn't say that .
Karen (39:54):
I have. Um, I think that get really clear on the reason why you wanna give one. It's not about standing on the circle and having the attention on you or having a talk go viral. It's about an idea that you wanna share in your way. You know, the, the criteria for these talks is why you and why this idea? Start there. Start with your idea and what you have to share because that is the piece that's really gonna resonate with everyone. Um, as you heard, it is a lot of work and so you have to like your idea to do this. Yeah. And I just wanna say, Jen, for me, there was a moment after I gave my talk where I got a message from Ted that said, welcomes to the speakers community. And it caught me. It was like, wow. Thank you. So welcome to the speakers community, Jen. Thank you.
Jen (40:41):
Thank you, thank you for all that you did to get me here.
Karen (40:44):
My pleasure. Thank you.
Jen (40:47):
I'm so grateful Karen could be with us today to talk about speaking at TEDx and storytelling.