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This week, Lise is joined by Sally Wilkinson, an accidental entrepreneur, Ironman finisher, author and founder of Shit to Shiny, who has spent nearly a decade sharing her story of depression, heavy drinking, bankruptcy and diet culture burnout with hundreds of thousands of women online. It's a properly raw, unfiltered conversation about shame, motherhood, addiction to alcohol and food, and what it actually takes to climb out of a hole rather than just fall into one, which feels especially timely for any woman in midlife still carrying decades of dieting baggage and quiet exhaustion.
In this episode, join Lise and discover:
- Why Sally's "accidental" business began with a bottle and a half of wine most nights, and how a soggy dishcloth in the kitchen became her rock bottom moment
- The story behind booking an Ironman with zero triathlon experience, four days after being declared bankrupt in Blackpool, and crossing the finish line at 17 hours 12 minutes
- Why Sally believes "life gets in the way" is one of the most damaging excuses women make, and what she says instead
- The real difference between "ownership" and "awareness" that reshaped the whole approach behind her book, Shit to Shiny
- Why 800 women doing a simple 20-minute daily walking challenge, including one who'd never seen a sunrise at 55, taught Sally more about lasting change than any diet ever did
Quote of the episode
"Anybody can fall into a hole, anybody. Even the most perfect person can fall, but nobody can fall out of the hole. You've got to climb out yourself." - Sally Wilkinson
Useful links
- Sally's website: https://thesallywilkinson.com/
- Sally on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesallywilkinson/
- Sally's book, Shit to Shiny: https://ebury.lnk.to/thesh-ttoshinymethod
Be a part of the show: Here's how to get in touch...
- Follow the show and get all the links you need on LinkTree - https://linktr.ee/walking_this_way
- Email us: walkingthisway@hotmail.com
- Use the get in touch form HERE - https://tr.ee/r-ePylKE8H
- Send us a voice message HERE- https://www.speakpipe.com/WalkingThisWay
Produced by The Good Studio - thegoodstudio.co.uk
Creators and Guests
What is Walking This Way?
Welcome to Walking This Way - the upfront, no-nonsense podcast about midlife for women who are done with pretending it’s all fine.
Join Lise Thorne for honest conversations, unfiltered stories and a good dose of humour as she explores what it really means to be a woman in midlife - from shifting priorities and changing bodies to rediscovering joy, purpose and self.
Real talk. Real women. Real midlife.
Because this isn’t about surviving midlife - it’s about walking it your way.
Walking This Way is produced by The Good Studio.
Sally (00:00)
Anybody can fall into a hole, anybody. Even the most perfect person can fall, but nobody can fall out of the hole. You've got to climb out yourself.
Lise (00:19)
Hello and welcome back to season 2, episode 2 of Walking This Way. How are you all doing? So it's official — yesterday I turned 50 years old. Half a century on this planet, and my goodness, what a ride it has been. I'm going to chat a bit more about it all in the next week's Out and About, but today I have got the most fabulous guest for you, and I want to get to her as soon as possible. And there's always a "but."
First, a quick one before we crack on. If you're enjoying the show, please hit follow wherever you're listening. And if you've got 30 seconds to spare, a review really does help. It's such a small thing for you to do, but it makes a massive difference to us — it's basically how other people stumble across the show. And following means you'll always get the next one the second it lands. But that's enough. And now for episode two of season two.
I was over the moon to welcome Sally Wilkinson onto the podcast. I have followed Sally on Facebook and Instagram for almost 10 years now. She has always been there, inspiring me to move and to be real. She was also a huge inspiration to massively reduce my drinking — in fact, I think I stopped for a whole year because of her, but more on that a little bit later in the show.
She isn't shy, and she says it how it is. So strap yourselves in — here is Sally Wilkinson.
Lise (01:53)
So my guest today is the wonderful Sally Wilkinson, and I have been researching you, Sally, and I'm going to put some things out there, but really I need you to explain it because I couldn't get a thread. Normally I like to give a bit of a thread about a person's history and who they are, but for you I've got: rugby player, Jason Vale juice retreats — you used to help facilitate them — property developer, fitness instructor, tribe leader, Nordic walker, Ironwoman, author, Strictly contestant, charity fundraiser. It goes on. So actually I want to kick straight off and ask: who is Sally Wilkinson?
Sally (02:33)
Well, all of those things, I think. Starting a business, totally accidentally — I like to say "accident" because people say we shouldn't say that, but well, why not, because that's what happened. I didn't really set out to go, "I want to be a business owner and inspire thousands of women to step away from the dieting treadmill nonsense, and this is how I'm going to do it." It wasn't like that. It just started really strangely.
But yeah, before all that, it was all those things — I did the Ironwoman, Ironman, should I say, to get out of a depression in 2016. I was diagnosed with depression because our property business went tits up, and it was just an awful, awful time. And yeah, I started drinking heavily, because I was never really a big drinker — I was a bit of a party drinker, a social drinker, I'd say. But then when we were going through that, it really was bad, and yeah, I went to bed for three months, basically. I just used to work at the gym then, teach three spinning classes and two body pump sessions a week, and that was my job. But before that I'd done retail management — I'd worked the call centre at BT for ten years, because I didn't want any responsibility while I was having two more children, plus I knew they did really good maternity packages. So that was lovely — it was lovely not to have a managerial role, because I'd been in retail management since I was about 20.
How old am I now? 56.
Lise (04:01)
Do you now? Do you — 50, 56 years young?
Sally (04:06)
Yes.
Lise (04:07)
Because you seem to have — the reason why I'm saying that is you seem to pack a lot in.
Sally (04:12)
Yeah, no, I did. I did my retail management, I did all that, and I always had two jobs. And when I was on maternity leave with Nancy, who's my youngest — she's 23 — she was so good, I took a year off BT, so we bought a house on a credit card, me and my brother, and he's a builder, and we just started doing property development. We did that for a couple of years — well, a few years — and it all ended up going tits up in the end, and it just ensued five, six years of absolute hell, really, and fear and worry and bailiffs and bankruptcy. It was just a really horrible time, and I just became ridiculously depressed. I put a couple of stone on, started comfort eating, which I hadn't done for years since I'd stepped away from the dieting industry, and then the biggest thing was I started drinking quite heavily. And when I say heavily, I mean probably a bottle, bottle and a half, five, six nights a week, creating fake happiness — where you just forget about it and party for one on the sofa till midnight, one in the morning.
Lise (05:18)
I've seen some of those clips, Sally, from the early days of following you. How old were your children at that point?
Sally (05:25)
It was the shame I feel about being a shit mother when they probably needed me the most. Nancy would have been about 11. I remember she'd just got into the grammar school — I remember it was fine the first few days, but then towards Christmas she used to come into the bedroom — she used to have long hair, and she still does — and she'd come in in her uniform, and this had been going on. I'd probably been bad for about a good few months, six months. I remember going to bed and just not wanting to get up in the morning. Nancy coming at seven o'clock, because of how the bus worked, she had to leave at half seven to get the bus, and she'd come in and say, "Mummy, can you tie my hair up?" So I'd wake up, swing my legs out of bed — I mean, it's shameful admitting this, shame only hides in secrecy, I feel, I've felt since I've been honest about it — I'd swing my legs out, tie her hair up, and she'd go out of the room and I'd just go back to sleep. I'd get up about one o'clock, really, when the dog needed to go out.
But I remember there was one particular event, so innocuous, that really did make me think, I have got to do something about this, because nobody is going to come and do it for me. I'd gone to the doctor's, been diagnosed with clinical depression, chose not to take the antidepressants — I don't judge anybody who does, I just felt it wasn't for me. So I remember that one morning, getting up about one o'clock and going down to the kitchen to make myself some food, and this is when all three children lived at home. They'd obviously made their own sandwiches, because I was Shit Mother of the Year — I usually, occasionally, used to do it. I shouldn't laugh, but occasionally go, "There's no crisps left," and they knew I'd had a drink the night before because I'd eaten all the crisps — you know what it's like when you've had a drink, you get the munchies, so I'd eat all the school crisps. It's terrible.
But I remember going down to the kitchen and seeing the worktops were covered in crumbs, and I hate that. So I went to get the cloth out of the sink, and I picked it up and it was wet and soggy — you know, when you pick a cloth up and usually you like to wring it out and leave it, well, I do — and it was wet and soggy, and I got hold of this soggy cloth and I just thought, fuck it, can't be arsed. And that might as well have been writing a hundred emails, that task of having to wring that cloth out and wipe the unit. So I just chucked it in the sink, made a loaf of toast, and went to bed, eating my feelings. And it was then that I really thought, this can't carry on, it really can't.
So I happened to read a book called Operation Ironman by George Mahood. It was funny as anything, and within four months he did an Ironman, and I just thought, I'm going to do that. Literally that day I read that book, I came to the computer — when's the next Ironman, never having done a triathlon of any description in my life, not even a sprint one. And it was four months later. So I booked it. I was in bed, just absolutely all horrible thoughts, feeling really suicidal, basically, just awful. And I thought, I've got — I knew enough about fitness and how it made me feel — that's what's gonna help me.
And so that day I booked Bolton Ironman, this was in the March. And that afternoon I went out on my bike, pumped the tyres up, did six miles, and it nearly bloody killed me — I'm not kidding you, I was blowing out my arse. But I came back, and it worked. I needed something — I could have done a half marathon or a marathon or a 20-mile bike ride, but I needed something, Lise, that felt impossible, that I had to train for. Because if I didn't have that, I knew I'd just wing it. But I needed something that I really needed to train for.
And four months later — and the irony, it always upsets me when I think of this — the irony that on the Tuesday, me and my brother had to go to Blackpool to be interviewed about the bankruptcy, and we were declared bankrupt on the Tuesday in Blackpool, and it was humiliating, it was awful, it was just horrible. Four days later I was crossing the Bolton Ironman finish line, in the same week. And it was so tinged, because I didn't do it to get a good time — people said, "What's your best discipline?" I was below average at all of them, I wasn't a particularly good runner, cyclist or swimmer, but I did all three, and Ironman's very strict, it's 17 hours — I was 17 hours 12 minutes. So I was the last person they allowed to cross the line, but there were 400 people behind me who didn't finish.
But I crossed the line, and I will never forget this amazing woman, similar age to me, with long blonde hair — she came up to me with a medal and a T-shirt, and I was just in bits, and she put this medal over my head and said, "It's people like you [that are] why I volunteer to do this." I'll never forget her kindness — she gave me a medal and a T-shirt, and I wear it with pride, because it signifies so much: that you can. And I know it's probably not everybody's — I'm not saying get out of your depression, go and do an Ironman, at all — you've got to find what works for you, and that's what worked for me. It's why I'm so passionate about fitness — it's nature's finest antidepressant, and it really did work.
Lise (10:52)
And Sally, there's a couple of things there. Number one, that shame about the alcohol with children — I've got it, I did it. We're similar ages. I used to get drunk all the time and then I would have hangovers beyond anything, I would be sick. When the kids were young I was doing that, and it was in a very socially acceptable way — mine was like, you know, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, I was the school mum who'd keep everyone up till 2am on the school drinks. That was me, I was a good party animal, but the alcohol made me so sick. And you also talk about that sort of suicidal feeling, and I don't know whether that means we need a trigger warning, but alcohol is such a depressant that I had the same things. It wasn't that I was going to get up and do it and I had a plan — I just, this is so shit, I can't do anything, I'm incapable of doing anything, I don't know how to move forward in the day. And a lot of that is the alcohol, that people don't realise. And even now — I have the odd drink now, not very much, because I changed my — I did the same thing as you, I just took on something that was so big. It's real, isn't it, Sally? But I took on something so big and it changed my life for the good, and it helped me stop the alcohol that I was so unhappy about. If you can drink and have a wonderful time and you're not hungover and it's not a problem, then it's not a problem. But for me it was a problem, and I have the same shame that you've just described.
I want to highlight that, number one, because I think many women have it — we have so many responsibilities, we're just desperate for a glass of wine to shut it out in the evening. I don't know how to sit down on the sofa unless I've necked a glass or two. There's so many women out there. But I think you and I are both sort of — you're the beacon of "it's possible, it's all possible," and I miss you.
Sally (12:47)
I think definitely having some compassion for yourself, which you don't have — all you have is alcohol for yourself. That's all I used to do. I never used to be a big drinker at all — in fact, I wouldn't drink unless I went out, and we didn't go out that much. It was only when we started going through this that it really — it was insidious, it really did creep in. But I ended up doing a 30-day challenge with One Year No Beer in 2017, and that turned into three and a half years. I didn't drink at all for three and a half years, and I learnt so much.
Lise (13:17)
I did the One Year No Beer challenge too, and I am sure it was because of you — I'm sure you shared it.
Sally (13:27)
I used to share it all the time, because I was so passionate about it. But you don't want to become one of these evangelical types who judge people for drinking. I was never the sort of person who could just — why would you just have one glass of wine?
Lise (13:42)
And Sally, I'm going to pause you there for a reason, because I've got a couple of little surprises for you. And I know that you adore your kids and I know that they adore you. I got in touch with them and asked — let's see if I can stay composed, if I can not cry. This was Nancy. I'm going to read it to you:
"I'm so proud of her, that she's been able to find such a fulfilling thing that she is so obviously, so naturally talented at, and being able to help so many people makes me so proud. Her voice and words help and motivate so many people from all walks of life, and it's a pleasure to see her blossom and grow in herself as well."
Sally (14:28)
Oh, god.
Lise (14:29)
"Even if she's still unable to motivate me to get out of bed." She loves you so much, and knows how many people are so excited to see how much she still has to give.
Sally (14:42)
That's Nancy, who amazingly used to come into my bedroom and I'd just chew her out.
Lise (14:50)
The 11-year-old Nancy who's grown up now — you've been an amazing role model to her.
Sally (14:52)
Yeah.
Lise (14:53)
I just, it's so hard to look back on those things, but when you hear those words from her, it's just gorgeous.
Sally (15:04)
Just — shh. Why is this so—
Lise (15:07)
And then we're gonna — I'm going to ask Tim, because your boys recorded [messages] too.
Sally (15:13)
Oh my god!
Lise (15:15)
So we're going to listen to Ben next.
Sally (15:19)
Ben's my 32-year-old, he's my first, Ben's my first one.
Lise (15:24)
Okay, so this is them.
Sally (15:27)
Oh my goodness — [emotional, listening] — God bless him. Covid. Blessing. [inaudible] — he's such a gentle giant, Ben, honestly, you just want one of his great big hugs. Six foot four, he is. Yeah, that's him, he's just wonderful. One thing I remember he said, and I always felt really proud of myself for this, is that he's always said, "Mum, one thing I just love about you and Dad" — he says — "you've never, ever made us feel like we should be doing something that we're not," you know, that we should be doing this as a job or that as a job. If I like a job and I leave it, it's fine. And I genuinely have always felt that whatever they want to do, they don't have to go and follow a career. I've done that from a young age, and I've also never — because I've never smacked any of the children, ever. But they've been called fucking arseholes plenty of times — sorry, they've been sworn at profusely over the years, but I've never smacked them. But I can't remember what I was going to say, while I was leading up to that.
Lise (18:08)
I felt that for all of them, and I had a little bit of back and forth about how proud you are of them. I know that, from listening to you for 10 years, how proud you are of them and how proud they are of you. You've always shown them what hard work is. And I think sometimes, as parents, we have regrets — I had a bit of a corporate career, I was drinking my way through a corporate career at the start, the kids were young. We weren't there, and there was a story once about my daughter — we used to get home from work about 6.30 and the nanny would have put the kids to bed, and we didn't go upstairs, because I had a girl and two boys, just like you, and if we'd gone upstairs the boys would have been up for another three hours and we were knackered, and a glass of wine. And our daughter told us, when she was about 12, "I remember I used to go to bed and the nanny would say, if you're really good, Mummy and Daddy might come up and kiss you." Never told us that.
Sally (19:02)
Yeah.
Lise (19:03)
Because we were exhausted. Certainly James, who's very like Simon, I think, in lots of ways — but certainly James and me — the guilt of that.
Sally (19:12)
That's hard.
Lise (19:15)
And on the other side, we sent our kids to private school and we were paying for that — I'm not sure it was the right decision, like, fucking hell. But we were all doing the best that we could do, and actually, as they come out as adults, I'm always hopeful that those bits we feel shame about, or feel so heavy about — you listen to your kids now, Sally, what gorgeous [words].
Sally (19:37)
Yeah, and I think it's sad, because we've always been open and honest, and we've never rowed behind closed doors — I'd never send the children upstairs to say, "we're gonna have a row," we'd just row anyway, but then they'd see the good bits as well. I don't know, and I just love the fact that they all just do their thing. But I do think hospitality should be like national service for teenagers, because they've all done it, because they saw me and Simon do it. Whenever we used to go to Pizza Express with our Tesco vouchers, we'd be playing cards, and you'd see waitresses come to a table and not clear a couple of glasses, and I'd say, never do that — if you ever come to a table, when you walk away, always think, what can I take, always be doing something. And I got this from Jack Canfield's book, The Success Principles — I remember telling them from a young age: whether it's cleaning a toilet or you're at a high-powered job, doesn't matter, you do it to the best of your ability, because if there are redundancies, you'll be last, and if there's a promotion, you'll be first. But always do it to your best. And they've always done that, whatever job they're doing.
Lise (20:49)
Your best, however sharp your best is, I agree. And then of course you've got Joe — is Joe the middle one?
Sally (20:55)
He's now Joe's the middle one, he's 27, he's in New Zealand at the moment. He's been gone a year — I think he's doing another two.
Lise (21:03)
Wow.
Sally (21:03)
So yeah, I went out to see him in February.
Lise (21:07)
I know, and I saw that trip, and that's kind of what gave me the idea, funnily enough, to get hold of him. So let's listen to Joe's [message].
Sally (21:59)
[listening to the message] Thank— Yes. Just— [emotional] — so that means they've done it already, he's bungee-jumped.
Lise (23:33)
I messaged him in the morning — I didn't want my time to run out, because you're on different time zones — so I messaged yesterday, and Tim and I were working out, I reckon it's him now, because they've had that day.
Sally (23:44)
Well, when I went over there, we did a canyon swing, which was a sort of bungee but a lot gentler — I have no interest in doing a bungee. Being out there was — and the thing is, with the different context with Joe, is that he's worked in the business a lot with us. During one of the lockdowns he was here for about four months after he'd graduated, and he built Shit to Shiny bite-size. He built the Motivated Menopause and the Nordic Walking course — he did all the technical side. And quite often he'd see me get overwhelmed and he'd just do this gentle hand on my shoulder — he didn't know how to deal with me, really. But yeah, my goodness, thank you for that. I feel like you're Michael Aspel.
Lise (24:31)
I really wanted to do this, Sally, because like I said, I've heard you for 10 years — I may not have been in — I don't know whether I ever properly joined the tribe, I tried once and it didn't quite work, so I didn't join the tribe, if you know what I mean — but I've been there all the way along. I've got the first Shit to Shiny somewhere here, I've ordered the second Shit to Shiny, and the thing is, you have spent 10 years, you have shared your heart and soul, ups and downs.
Sally (25:03)
Yeah.
Lise (25:04)
Ups and downs. And you have allowed everyone in your orbit to be real and raw. Like I said to you, your voice — I don't always stare at my phone when I can hear people, but I know your voice, and I can hear you talking to me in my kitchen. This might be the first time we're interacting like this, but you've done that — thousands and thousands of women came across you, when I was researching for this podcast — I'm not sure how many times you've been told that you transform lives, that there is a cost to you in doing that, showing up all the time. And I think we all know how exhausting it is sometimes to show up, even to be an instructor, to hold a retreat, to hold that space — you hold space for women all the time, all the time. And then when you drop off the edge of a cliff, which you do sometimes, you need that bloody space held for you too. It's like, now we're down the cliff and I'm holding that space for you too. And I just felt like today it was really important to have a celebration of everything that you've done.
Sally (26:13)
That is really lovely, and I really massively appreciate it, because I know when I started running my abroad retreats — we do one or two a year, but we just do one now, in Marrakesh — but when we started our first one, eight years ago in Portugal, it was definitely always going to be a Wilkinson family holiday, because Ben's a qualified PT as well, Joe's on socials, and Nancy, now she's older, is the retreat manager. It's like a family holiday with 20-odd guests, and that's it, and that's how we've always run it. Ben and Joe won't be there this year, but Nancy will still be there, bossing everybody about. And that's why they see firsthand what the guests achieve, and live in the community and the tribe — they see it online, they see how it impacts me.
Because unfortunately, you can't please everybody, and sometimes you do get people who don't like what you do, and how upsetting that is. You feel it — because you've got your bitch voice, haven't you, and even when you get people saying, "That's amazing, that's a brilliant programme, you've changed my life," you can sometimes feel — it's lovely, but you don't believe it, you choose not to listen sometimes, you listen to the shit comments instead.
Just one very quick story — I'll never forget this one lady. I was even in a bit of a shit patch myself, this was a couple of years ago, and Simon and I had had a massive row that morning — we work for ourselves, you know what it's like, we get on 95% of the time brilliantly, he's my favourite person in the world, and I love that he accidentally started — gave up all his stuff — and we work together now four or five days a week. But I remember we'd had a bit of a row, and he was out mowing the lawn — it was late afternoon and I'd just done this Facebook Live, when he used to do more lives. It was about 40 minutes long, and rah rah rah, come on, and it was great, and there were about 120 women on, and I get so energetic and excited doing them, because I love the impact they have, and when women say, "Yeah, I'm gonna do that," or "I've done this," I go, "Yeah, brilliant, everybody support her." It was a really energetic Live.
Then I put the laptop lid down once it had finished, and I thought, I don't think I can do this job any more. [role-playing herself] "I might do my own little role play now, at least, because it feels real." I honestly don't know if I can do it any more, because I feel shit. And now those women — a lot of them are feeling great, and I love that — but I am really struggling myself, and I miss colleagues, I miss going out more, I miss people, I feel really lonely. I see everybody else succeeding, getting their books published, and mine's way off yet, nobody's going to do it, I've got to make that effort and I can't be fucking arsed, I can't be bothered, I feel like such a fake and a fraud.
And now I've shut the computer, and I put my head in my hands, and I saw Simon walk past with the lawnmower — fucking dickhead, you know, you do. And I just thought, this is just, I can't do it, what job can I do, because I can't be on my own any more doing this. And then an email ping popped up, and I went on and looked at it, and it was an email from a woman I'd never heard of, don't know who she was. She said she'd been following me for six months, and she said, "Sally, I just needed to let you know — you are the first person in that time that has made me smile, made me want to live, because we lost our 26-year-old son. I just want to thank you so much." And I just got this huge whoosh of gratitude for — I get to do this job. I get to see all these women who feel shit — not all of them, who then feel ace, but then feel shit again — but they don't spend as long there as they normally would, because of the stuff they're learning and supporting each other.
And Simon walked past with the lawnmower again, and I just went, "I love you so much" — do you know what I mean — I went from "dickhead, you're breathing too heavily" to that. And all because sometimes you forget to notice what impact you have, because it feels conceited, it feels like you've been a show-off and a big-head to acknowledge that you actually do impact people's lives. And I think with the belief work I've got a lot better at being able to do that, but it's still difficult, though. Sometimes I think, who do you think you are? Just pipe down, love, and stay a little. Don't get too good, you know.
Lise (30:52)
We were taught: don't stick your head above the parapet.
Sally (30:55)
Yeah, exactly.
Lise (30:58)
Don't shine. Sally, I get some of those stories as well. My 10-year journey — I'm 10 years since I went off on a Muay Thai boxing retreat in 2016, almost 10 years exactly, sounds like a very similar journey to you, and I've known you the whole time. And if you don't shine, if you don't own the good stuff — like, yeah, let's own the shit stuff too, we know that, we own the shit that we do, when we fuck up, and I fight with James and then have to put my tail between my legs and say sorry, I was a bit of a bitch, and I do love you, because I do love him. But we own the shit stuff, and as women, we've just been taught to stay small and quiet, don't shine. It's taken me 10 years, and that's my "rockstar" thing — it's very similar to you — but you're a rock star, and people say to me, "I'm shit, I've never worn a bikini, I'm this and that and the other, blah blah blah," and I'm always like, you're a rock star, you're a rock star, because you need to know it before you can start to stop those shit times.
Sally (32:09)
You need to believe it, and it's really hard for a lot of women. But the thing is, if you're feeling shit about yourself and you're masking with food, drink, whatever it is, and you feel crap — and it's something I say a lot, because I've done this so many times, when I was stuck in the middle of the diet industry nonsense, on and off all different diets — nobody stands in the kitchen eating four rounds of toast and half a jar of Wall's Viennetta while deciding what to have for tea if they're having happy thoughts. You just don't. And the amount of times that you mask — I used to go to bed with my massive bar of Galaxy and my Slimming World magazines, hoping that one Janice's story about losing seven stone would inspire me, even though I'd been doing that frigging stuff for 10 years — there and back, there and back, there and back. Going to a village hall in the middle of winter in your bloody summer dress, because it doesn't weigh as heavy. Taking your watch off. Going to the toilet — you'll have a bloody crap instead of just a wee, because that's even less to weigh.
And I remember, just a few weeks ago, saying this on socials, and I actually asked, "Is this stuff you've done, or is it just me?" And they said, "My god, no, I've done this, used to take my shoes off, used to do all this." And do you know what one woman said — it was unreal — she said, "God, so I've done all this, but what I used to do on weigh day, I would only ever apply one layer of mascara." And I'm not kidding you, people go, that's ridiculous, and it is, and it's funny, and it's mad — but it's not mad, it's actually really sad to see how deeply we've been conditioned by the dieting industry. These are sensible, amazing, savvy businesswomen, a lot of them, who are not stupid, yet they're falling for shit like that — applying one layer of mascara because they're going to get weighed in a village hall in the middle of winter. That's what their self-worth becomes, that number on the scale. Then whatever, whether they've been "good" or "bad," and it's a good or bad result — then it's chippy night anyway on weigh night, because who eats well after you've been weighed? You're there with your three bags of Quavers [unclear — flagging], your bloody frozen Curly Wurlys and Cadbury Creme Eggs that you had to freeze. All the nonsense, shite that I've done over the years.
Lise (34:33)
Slimming World, LighterLife, Weight Watchers, Rosemary Conley — I've done them all. LighterLife, those 500-calorie days — they're not even really 500 calories, your day is 500 calories full of the power of the shit that you drink.
Sally (34:48)
It's that all-or-nothing attitude they really do rely on — because we all know that fake happiness in between diets, when you've finished one because it stopped working, and actually you just stopped doing it — because they all work if you stick to them. But I don't want to count points and syns for the rest of my life, I don't want it, it's miserable, because then when you accidentally eat a chip off your child's plate while you're doing tea — one chip — you go, "Fuck it, what's the point now, I've ruined it," and that's it, all hell breaks loose, and you eat the contents of Sainsbury's in an evening, vowing to start again the following Monday. You never start again the next day.
Lise (35:29)
It's also the fact that they're called Syns.
Sally (35:32)
Yeah, I know — but they changed the spelling, they went from S-I-N to S-Y-N, and I think they call them "sweeps" or something now, I think they've changed them. But I used to be a Slimming World consultant — can you believe that? I can't remember what tier I was. Somebody said to me once, "Sally, I'm going out this weekend" — even then, I must have known the psychology I have now — she said, "Sally, I'm going out this weekend, what do I do?" And I said, "Eat whatever the fuck you like." That's what I told her, as a Slimming World consultant — eat what the hell you want. Even then, I think I probably knew that's the way to do it — you've got your choices, and the consequences of your choices. My whole ethos is to put women in a more positive state of mind, then they start owning their choices, owning them, taking responsibility, which is scary and can be painful, but that's how we do it.
And I think that if you're like me and you spent the 80s, 90s and 00s doing all these different diets, counting syns and points, the new one now — obviously calorie deficits and macro counting — doesn't work for women like me, because you're just counting points again, it's the same sort of thing, just a different disguise of a diet, so it doesn't work. And I think a lot of PTs — not all of them, obviously, but a lot of these companies — focus on: a woman goes to somebody and says, "I feel shit." "Well, what weight do you want to lose?" "I want to lose two stone." "Right, this is how we're going to do it." It's all focused on the body, and what it looks like, and how to make it smaller, as if that's going to be the thing that solves it. What they don't do is say, forget about your body, forget about what you're eating, eat what the fuck you like to start with, let's just focus on how we do this — we're going to start with a little 20-minute walk and two litres of water, do that for a few weeks, forget anything else.
And I'm not kidding you, the transformations I've seen — I don't know if you know, when I did that 20 Minute Triumph a few years ago in January, for a month, I did it three years on the trot — it was unbelievable, the transformations in that, just a cheap and cheerful little programme, because it's not about the water and the walking and how many steps you're doing, it's about women committing to themselves to make the effort to do it. That's what creates the transformation, and they're making their own choice.
If I've got time for a very quick example — one woman who happened to be in the Facebook group one of the years we did this. She was doing it, and she had a tick sheet, and I always say, please do not get greens every day, do not be perfect, because if you do that you're just using willpower, you're allowed to be shit some days, you can still create huge transformation. This lady — I said I don't want anybody's sheet to be perfect — she had a few red ticks on, hadn't done the steps every day, and that was fine, but on the whole she was doing it. Twice a week, on a Wednesday and Thursday, I thought I'd give a little extra challenge to the group — there were about 800 women doing this — and I said, on Wednesday and Thursday you've got the option to get up and see a sunrise, do your walk in the morning. She said she's not a morning person, never done it, no interest. But because everybody else was posting in the group, by the time week four came along — it was only a four-week programme — she thought, "Fuck it, I'm gonna try it, it's really inspired me seeing all these women doing the sunrise." Bearing in mind the time of year, it was about half past seven, so it wasn't like a half-four sunrise. So anyway, she posted in the group — I'll never forget it — she said, "I can't believe it, I've done it, I've done it. I asked my Alexa what time the sun would rise tomorrow, and it said 7:30, so I put my stuff out, got up, got out of bed, and went walking." And the way she wrote the post, I'll never forget it — she said, "I was walking through the field, and I didn't know which way to look to see where the sun was." She was 55, never seen a sunrise in her life. And a few other women also said, "I've never seen a sunrise," and that just blew my mind, because you'd think a person who walks a lot would have seen a sunrise. Anyway, she said, "I didn't know which way to look, but then as I turned around I could see the sky was turning pink, I saw it coming over the hedge, this beautiful blue sky and it was pink, it was huge, and in that moment I could feel a tear coming down my right cheek, and in that moment I knew my life was forever changed." And she went on to do more sunrises, more sunrises — still not an early-morning person all the time, but she has changed intrinsically who she is, because of the effort she made, because she showed up, she wasn't perfect, she committed to herself, not a single frigging calorie counted.
That's what a diet is to me — it's how can I make myself feel good, but not with fake happiness, not with shoving it down with food. You can — like when we did the Shit to Shiny programme last year, again in January, do not have a perfect tick sheet. One lady said, "Sally, but I'm doing the sugar thing, I don't want sugar at the moment, and it's my auntie's 80th birthday at Claridge's." I said, "Well, go and enjoy the cake." "But I don't want to ruin it." I said, "That's your old mentality, love — this is the Shit to Shiny way, you're not going to ruin anything, I want you to go and have an amazing day and enjoy it." And she did — she came back and said, "I happily gave myself a red on that day" — because we have a little tick sheet for the whole time — "and I did that." The old me would have given herself a red and then had reds for another two weeks, because "what's the point of ruining it," like me and the chip off my child's plate. But when you own your choices, and you truly accept them, and you do it with compassion and love and — deservingness, that's not even a word, but deservingness for yourself — you do it with a different attitude, so that the Claridge's afternoon tea has the same amount of calories, the same fat, the same sugar, you eat it in a certain way about yourself, like she did, and it doesn't have the same impact. Obviously the calories are the same, but if you do it shrunk down, thinking "I'm a fat bitch, I'm useless, I can't be arsed, fuck it, I'll do it anyway" — that's the damaging bit, it's not the actual calories in the food. I know some people will come for me saying, "Well, it is," because obviously if you eat that every day it's going to impact how you look and feel, but when you're doing it, it's not failure, it's not you being weak and useless. It's just your life.
Lise (42:29)
[agreeing]
Sally (42:29)
It's life. Honestly, one of my pet-hate sayings is when people go, "Do you know what, I was doing really well, I'd lost half a stone, but then, you know, life got in the way." Or, "I was training for the marathon, but you know what it's like, life got in the way, I got busy." No — I don't know what it's like, love. I know that's harsh, but I do not know what you mean when you say life gets in the way. You hear everybody saying it, you hear it on the telly, everybody on Instagram, "life gets in the way" — I don't understand it. Life is not an inconvenience that can get in the way. Get in the way of what? It is your life. This is your life. Going to Claridge's is your life. Me going through bankruptcy is my life. It is happening and unfolding. So you always get to choose how you deal with those life events, it isn't "it" getting in the way. As soon as you say that, it becomes an excuse for your choices, which feels easier to accept.
And I think that's the whole — this is why some people might not like what I do, because I will call you out on your excuses. And the biggest one is time. "We don't have time. I don't have time, I don't have time, I don't have time." Everybody says it, I used to say it all the time, I don't say it any more since I did my own Shit to Shiny. And I'm not perfect, as you know, but I won't use time as an excuse. Don't say you don't have time — yes, of course, some days, or even a week, you'll feel like you have less time. But nobody will ever, ever convince me that they don't have a lifetime of having time. Just say instead, "I was going to do the walk, but it's not important enough to me," "I was gonna do the run, but it's not important enough" — or do you not say, "I can't be arsed walking today"? Don't tell yourself you don't have time, because if you believe that nonsense, you're never gonna do anything about it. Whereas if you start accepting, well, actually, you do have time — because as long as you've got one of these bloody things [phone], I tell you, you have time, because how much time do we lose in that vortex? So don't say you don't have 20 minutes to go and do a 20-minute walk every day. And I know that'll sound harsh and some people will go right off me, but until you own your excuses, you've got to create the awareness first, and until you do that, and then own your behaviour and choices, you are never gonna change.
You've got to own it, and owning it can be bloody painful, and it's that sweet spot where true transformation happens, when a woman can just go, "I realise now I've been making excuses for years and I'm just sick of it. Do I really want this? Well, obviously not, because I'm not doing it. So I just won't do it at the moment, it's not the right time." Brilliant. That's ace, I admire that hugely — don't do it, you don't have to, nobody gives a shit whether you do it or not, anyway.
So stop saying you're gonna do it and then not doing it, and don't use language like, "I wish I had your motivation." Fuck off — my motivation is not a buy-one-get-one-free near the egg aisle at Tesco, you've got to earn it. And to do that, you do what that lady did, and you make sure you go out and do your 20-minute walk — something she'd never done. She got over herself and did it, because she was sick of her own excuses. And it lights my heart up when I see women fighting through that really difficult patch of "this is my responsibility, yes Sally can help me, yes that programme can help, but ultimately it's me and nobody else."
Lise (46:06)
And also, nobody's coming to save you. That's what I say to people, nobody's coming to save you — only you can take responsibility for yourself and choose. I think you said about getting through that painful bit, the awareness bit — I'd been spinning myself this bullshit: no time, no this, no that, no money, no money, walking's free. Someone said to me — I know I want this to go out on the podcast, actually — anyway, someone said, because they watch Instagram quite a lot, Tim, we might have to cut this — I've just become an ambassador for Ramblers Worldwide Holidays, and someone said on Instagram — they were doing some free sample walks, they've got guides, they're really lovely, I really love them, because you've got a person who tells you where you're going, you don't have to navigate, and they've got the first aid kit if it all goes wrong. It's absolutely worth the money, and they know all where you're going, so you get really good stories. And someone said, "They're free walks and they've sold out, that's really stupid." One person said that, and I thought, well, because they're taking a group of people, they don't want to take a hundred people up a mountain. And then someone else said, "I'm really interested in those free walks because I've always wanted to go walking, but it's so expensive." There's one thing that's certainly true about walking — you can claim a triathlon's quite expensive these days, or an Ironman or whatever, but walking!
Sally (47:39)
They are just — and I think it's the hearing of those excuses, and people really don't realise they're saying them. I'll never forget when I had my first big edit of my book with Penguin — my editor, Julie, she was amazing, she said, "You've talked about these stages, and the first one is called ownership," but she said, "You talk about creating awareness a lot in it, I think we should change it to awareness, because I think ownership sounds a bit tough." And I thought about it, and because a lot of the stuff there resonated, I agreed — I thought, "I'd never thought of that, brilliant."
Lise (48:20)
Your editor said they wanted "awareness," not "ownership."
Sally (48:23)
Yes, yeah, because she thought "ownership" sounded a bit tough. I was delighted, I said, good, I'm glad you think that, because it's supposed to be — because you cannot create change without first creating awareness. But you can create all the awareness you want while you keep saying excuses; until you own that behaviour, you're never gonna change. You've got to own it, you've got to own the fact that — do you know what, I've been a bit of a lazy get recently. Do you know what, I don't like Janice at the office because she lost two and a half stone in lockdown and I put two stone on, so Janice is getting on my wick. But really Janice is actually really nice, it's just the fact that she's holding a big shiny mirror up to my choices that I'm not happy with, and it's painful.
The amount of books I had — I nearly gave up writing, man, I knew I wouldn't give up, but I was on a six-month break from writing. It wasn't a six-month frigging break, it was me not being fucking arsed for six months to do it. And it was eating away at me, because I was pissed off I hadn't finished it, never mind getting a publisher, which was a whole other thing in itself. But then I saw people publishing their books on Instagram, and I was jealous as hell, but I didn't begrudge them, because fair enough, they'd done it. I could have gone, "This is too painful, well, I don't have time, it's all right for them, they have this, they have that, I wish I had their motivation." I could have said all that. But nothing's gonna help apart from me sitting down at my desk and starting writing the book again. It's painful and it's difficult, but the same applies to getting fitter, to losing weight, to losing body fat, to creating a business, to going out and getting more friends and not being as isolated and lonely — they all take effort that we have to put in that nobody's gonna come and do for us. But it's so easy for us to blame other people, and when we own it — it can be difficult, but all you need to do — if you're listening to this and I'm touching a nerve, I don't intend to upset anybody, but all I want you to know is you are absolutely not on your own. If this is a bit uncomfortable, and you think, "Did she," or "I've experienced every painful thing that I've described" — that is why I'm so passionate about it, because I know how shit it feels to go to bed with chocolate, and it's alright every so often, when it's a nourishing thing, but we know when it's not a nourishing thing — when you're shoving it down your face coming back from Tesco, when you're eating four Kit Kats, eating shit food, hating yourself, drinking a bottle of wine, can't be arsed to do the walk, "I hate myself, never mind, I'll just do this and that." It's painful, it's horrible, and I know how shit it feels because you know what to do — we're not stupid, we know what to do to lose weight or lose body fat or get fit, most of the time. But the fact that we don't then do it anyway, because it's too much effort or we can't be arsed, and especially going through menopause and perimenopause, you just don't want to do it — fuck it, fuck it, fuck it, I don't want to do it. And so the consequence is you just feel shit, and then everybody else has got their act together and you're just this frigging slug that you can't squash.
Lise (51:44)
I'm assuming it's that feeling, and it's all of those things you've just described, Sally, that is the Shit to Shiny.
Sally (51:49)
Well, it is. Then can I tell you, Lise, the whole solution absolutely is not to start focusing on how much weight you want to lose — that is not the solution. The solution is to work out why we make the excuses. Can you imagine a life where you just stopped making excuses, and you wanted to get up in the morning to go for a walk, you wanted to start drinking your water, you no longer wanted to mask? You do eat chocolate, but you do it because you're enjoying it, not because "I'm a shit bitch, I'm a fat bitch, I hate myself." Can you imagine a life where you don't worry about what other people think, you no longer make assumptions and think your neighbours hate you because they didn't wave to you one morning, and so you take that experience and turn it into an excuse to come home and eat shit because you think they don't like you any more — all that sort of thing.
When you start living from a place of really owning your experiences, you no longer want to mask with the shit. And all I say to women — I know, at the end of my book, it might sound negative — "it won't last." I've gone from Shit to Shiny, I've gone from Shit to Shiny to shit again, because it happens. Now, am I in danger of people no longer wanting to buy that, because I'm saying it won't last? It's real bloody life, shit happens. And I'm not kidding you, you can turn it around in a decision, you do not have to wait three friggin' weeks to lose three pounds, you turn it round in a moment, with a decision to make the change. And that's what Shit to Shiny is all about, because yes, it's not gonna last — you are not gonna feel level 10, swinging from the chandeliers, for the rest of your life. Some perfect-looking people might get you to believe that on Instagram — "I've kept the weight off 47 years" — and fair enough, well played to them, but that isn't me, I'm not your person, because you will see me in two years, probably feeling a bit shit — but on the whole, I spend a lot less time there than I ever would have done, feeling shit.
And one analogy I love to use — it was a quote, so I can't remember who said it: "Anybody can fall into a hole, anybody. Even the most perfect person can fall, but nobody can fall out of the hole, you've got to climb out yourself." And that's what the principles in the book teach you — to climb out of that hole yourself.
Lise (54:23)
Sally, I am very keen — I've got one more surprise that I'd like to play.
Sally (54:28)
Get your Michael Aspel glasses on. [laughing]
God is my bloody hero, as you know — well, Joe Wicks is my constant inspiration. People think, "Why?" — I'm old enough to be Joe Wicks' mother — but it's how he's chosen to run his business. When I accidentally started mine, doing a plant challenge on the business page — I only started my business page to help grow the retreats, I'd had no idea about social media and how it works — Joe started his at the same time. I'll never forget, on my very first retreat in Morecambe, there was a Sunday Times left on the desk in the café, and it was when he was just becoming known, and there was a big double-page spread on him. I'll never forget it, and I've followed him ever since.
And when you try to actively grow your business, you go on business courses, business mentors, social media days in London — I didn't know what a frigging funnel was, Lise, I thought it was something you had under the kitchen sink, or a plug-in, I thought it was something you bought from Currys for your computer, no idea. So you sort of get swayed into doing it all like that, and it just didn't feel right to me. Whereas Joe Wicks is one of the few people I've seen run their business purpose-led, not profit-led. Yes, he's done very well out of it, but that's because he had a true passion to help people first. And that is what has always inspired me. So in all those times I've felt shit about myself, that I've wanted to stop writing a book, that I've wanted to stop showing up, that I think people just think I'm a Northern dickhead and won't like me because I'm too full-on and too honest — he — I don't think he probably knows the extent of how much I've just thought, no, I just want to keep being more like him. He's done it, he's done well out of it, he's still inspiring people, and that's what I want to carry on doing.
And I'll never forget when I messaged him, and he very, very kindly gave a quote for the front of my book. It says, "Sally will transform your life and make you..." — and to have him on there just means the world, thank you for that, it really means a lot.
Lise (57:13)
Well, and Sally, I messaged him on Instagram and I probably had it within about two minutes. He's gorgeous.
Sally (57:19)
It is, it really is. I'll be seeing him, actually — I've got a gig at Carfest, I'm doing Shit to Shiny Calisthenics in the spa tent at Carfest. Although my book's not out for a few days — it's out on the 3rd of September — Waterstones have agreed to sell it in the tent, so once I've done that I can go to a little book signing. But obviously Betty Bitch-Voice [unclear spelling — flagging] is going to be sat there thinking, "Who's gonna come and get the book signed?" I think there are about five or six of the tribe going to Carfest, so I'll be sat there thinking that, but I'm gonna go, "Joe, you'd better come and get your book signed."
Lise (58:01)
Well, that's what you need — he will come, just message him.
Sally (58:04)
Yeah, no — but I'll go and do his workout, it's amazing, thank you for that.
Lise (58:09)
Sally, I'm just going to finish off by saying thank you so much. You are such a beam and a ray of Northern light, thank you, you are gorgeous. I didn't realise how much you have been in my life for 10 years — 10 years has been the journey I've been on, so when I talk about before and after, 10 years is the timeframe, and you've been there the whole time. Listening to these stories, I know all of these, because I've been there listening — listening, not commenting, not partaking.
Sally (58:43)
But you do it quietly, and it's right, isn't it — I quietly follow a lot of people, I don't tend to engage much with other people's socials, I just quietly follow. I don't know why I don't do that, it's weird, because I do like to engage on my own stuff, but I — honestly, I thank you. And all I want to say, I suppose, to anybody listening, is if you're feeling that you want to make a change, I want them to promise, before they start another diet, before they start anything, that they will give this a chance and read it — read it with an open mind, there's tick sheets in it, I've even done six workouts in it as well, with a QR code — Shit to Shiny Calisthenics, some weights — but the tick sheets are in there, which you download.
But I just want this to reach as many people as possible — there are millions of women out there who are still stuck in that dieting mentality trap, feeling not good enough, less than, like they're a failure, and it is not their fault, it genuinely isn't. So to get movement in instead — and I'm not talking about going to the gym and doing an Ironman, I'm just talking about moving that glorious, wonderful, incredible body that we've been gifted, that we forget to thank. We forget to thank it, instead we're busy chastising it, looking in the mirror, calling ourselves a fat bitch, going, "chins like this," "back fat there," "it's shit, I'm crap, I'm useless" — that's how we habitually talk to ourselves. So don't try and fix that by focusing on losing half a stone or three stone — focus on the mindset first. And that's all I have to say.
Lise (1:00:19)
Every woman listening to this — if they see Shit to Shiny — well, it's available online, but if you see it on the shelves, pick it up, read it, digest it, because you never know what's at the end of it.
Sally (1:00:32)
God, I'd love to know if any of your ladies do that, I would love to hear from them, to see what their thoughts are. And again, Betty Bitch-Voice will think, "Still think it's shit, Sally, who the fuck do you think you are?" But she can do one, she's always there — but I know it works because I've seen it.
Lise (1:00:49)
I— thank you so much, the biggest amount of love and hugs, I wish we did it in person.
Sally (1:00:59)
We will, we will, but thank you, honestly.
Lise (1:01:03)
Thank you, Sally.
Lise (1:01:11)
Well, that's it for episode two of this new season of Walking This Way. What did you think? Get in touch and let me know — you can leave a voice message or drop me an email, the links are in the show notes. A massive thank you to Sally for coming on, and to Joe Wicks and Sally's children for sending me such lovely messages. Sally is raw and real — the title of her book, Shit to Shiny, says it all. Life isn't linear, we always have ups and downs, but doing your best to love yourself through it all really is the best anti-diet diet you can ever have. It's all about feeling good, and the better we feel, the better we feel. So please think about one small habit you can add into your day, each day, that will make you feel better. What will it be?
And one last thing from me, as always, and then I promise you can get on with your day. If this one struck a chord with you, or if something Sally said made you think of another woman in your life — a mum, a friend, your sister, whoever popped into your head — just send it on. Doesn't have to be anything fancy, WhatsApp it, share it in your stories, or just mention it next time you're having a cuppa together. And look, I know I bang on about it every week, but hitting follow wherever you listen genuinely, honestly makes a massive difference. It's such a tiny thing to do, takes about two seconds once you've found the button, but it's how more women's voices get heard out there, and that only happens if we support each other rather than waiting for someone else to do it. So go on, hit follow, tell a friend, pass it on, and leave a five-star review — it really is down to all of us.
I'll be back next week with another Out and About, and then the week after that with the lovely Penny Minato, an incredible lady who will make you think about your wardrobe, what you wear, what you buy, and why fast fashion is most definitely not the answer.
So in the meantime, have a great week, take care of yourselves, and remember — I love you, rock stars.