Jonathan Pageau on Trauma, Memory & the Symbolic Path to Healing

🎙️ Episode 14 – Jonathan Pageau on Trauma, Memory & the Symbolic Path to Healing

In this profound conversation, Mark Odland (Certified EMDR Therapist & founder of Lion Counseling) is joined by renowned Orthodox Christian artist and cultural commentator Jonathan Pageau (The Symbolic World) to explore a topic rarely covered in Pageau’s public work: trauma, memory, and personal transformation.

With approximately 250,000 subscribers, Jonathan is known globally for helping people rediscover the symbolic patterns that shape reality—in scripture, culture, art, and personal life. In this episode, he and Mark dive into how trauma and memory shape identity, and how both psychological healing and spiritual hierarchy can help men reorder their lives.

🔍 In This Episode, You’ll Discover:

Why trauma is like a symbolic vortex that tries to consume identity
How EMDR therapy helps reorient painful memories and restore wholeness
Jonathan’s reflections on symbolism, ritual, and the modern man’s identity crisis
The hidden symbolic structure of trauma and healing
What happens when your trauma becomes the “sacred center” of your story—and how to replace it
Why men need hierarchy, tradition, and myth to make sense of suffering
How ritual, memory, and imagination were meant to ground and heal us
The relationship between Protestantism, secularism, and the loss of meaning
What Jonathan learned about story, masculinity, and spiritual resilience from his own journey
A surprising dialogue between symbolic theology and modern trauma therapy
How to leave a legacy that restores rather than fragments

💥 Whether you found Jonathan through Jordan Peterson, are drawn to deep theology, or you're simply a man trying to make sense of pain, this is a conversation you won’t want to miss.

Learn more about Jonathan Pageau at thesymbolicworld.com

About the Show:
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the lions they were created to be. Hosted by Mark Odland and Zack Carter, we explore real topics like trauma, masculinity, anxiety, identity, purpose, and spiritual growth—blending faith, psychology, and personal transformation.

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
👉 Want help overcoming trauma or rediscovering meaning? Visit www.escapethecagenow.com to book a free consultation.

➡️ What part of this conversation with Jonathan Pageau resonated with you most?

Creators and Guests

Host

Mark Odland

Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Jonathan Pageau: 00:00

And so what I think that I like about EMDR, at least my understanding of it, is that it understands that. It's like, it kind of sees that there is something that happened to you that's so salient, like it's such a shock that it's trying to swallow you into it. Like it's an event that's trying to swallow all of you into this event. Your body, your memories, you know, your emotions, and it's not completely willful. Like it's something that's almost automatic, you know?

Jonathan Pageau: 00:29

But that there is also a way to reorient those memories. Or a good way of saying it is, the way you said it, it feels further away. It's like, to not not to get rid of it, forget it, but to place it in its proper place in the hierarchy of who you are, to replace it and say, yes, this happened to me. Yes, this has some importance, but it is not me.

Mark Odland: 01:01

Welcome to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Ottlin, licensed therapist, EMDR specialist, and founder of Lion Counseling, where we help men break free, heal deep and become the lions they were born to be. Today I'm honored to talk with Jonathan Pageau, a renowned liturgical artist, writer and cultural commentator. Through his popular YouTube channel, The Symbolic World, Jonathan's become one of the leading voices in helping people to rediscover the the symbolic patterns, the deep patterns and stories that shape our world, that shape our faith, that shape our lives. He's the author of the graphic novel God's Dog and the founder of the Symbolic World Press, a publishing company reclaiming the art of meaningful storytelling for a new generation.

Mark Odland: 01:47

With nearly 250,000 subscribers and a global community of thinkers and artists, Jonathan's helping people recover beauty and hierarchy and spiritual vision in an age of confusion. In our conversation together, we'll explore topics around trauma, transformation, what it means to be a man in this modern world. And we'll hear a little bit about Jonathan's story, his journey, and talk about memory and how it shapes us and how we as men might be able to walk through this beautiful but challenging life. Let's go. And my guest today is Jonathan Pageau.

Mark Odland: 02:43

Jonathan, welcome to the Lion Counseling Podcast.

Jonathan Pageau: 02:46

Great to be here.

Mark Odland: 02:47

Yeah. Thank thank you so much for doing this. It's truly an honor. I know being a a patron in in your symbolic world, we've had a chance to talk a little bit off off the camera, and, I was looking back at my notes, and we've talked about art, faith, EMDR therapy, graphic novels, dream interpretation, AI, and tattoos. And specifically how you probably never get a tattoo even if it was in the oldest tattoo shop in the world in Jerusalem.

Mark Odland: 03:15

Correct.

Jonathan Pageau: 03:15

That's right. Probably not.

Mark Odland: 03:19

Yeah. Yeah. Well, to start out, for those of you who for those out there who maybe aren't familiar with with your work, Jonathan, maybe you can share just a little bit about your background, your story, and, you no pressure, just covering your whole life up until now. But yeah, anything you'd share about your background would be great.

Jonathan Pageau: 03:39

Sure. So I guess the first thing to say is that I'm mostly an artist. One of the things that I've done is created images for churches, created icon carvings, liturgical art for churches. But I guess the thing now that I do mostly is I discuss Christian symbolism. I discuss symbolism in general and, you know, how the different patterns of meaning affect our lives and how we can recognize them Mhmm.

Jonathan Pageau: 04:09

And and see them properly. And so I have a YouTube channel where I talk about that. I I do conferences. I also write children's books. You know?

Jonathan Pageau: 04:17

So I do a whole bunch of things that are kind of around the the theme of image making and storytelling, trying to kind of help people reconnect with the deeper meanings that that imbue our lives.

Mark Odland: 04:30

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know that, you talk about a lot of of deep of deep things. This isn't, shallow conversations, that you're delving into. But, apparently, it's tapped into a kind of a huge, I don't know, void is the right word or or need because there it seems like it's attracted a lot of people who are interested in this in these things.

Jonathan Pageau: 04:52

Yeah. I think that we're, in some ways, in a kind of crux. We're at a civilizational moment, I guess you could call it, where, you know, for the last one hundred years, you know, give or take, things have been kind of collapsing or fragmenting. It's been happening for more than that, but things that has accelerated, maybe at least since World War II. And so, kind of feel the fragmentation of our narrative, the fragmentation of our religious institutions, our societies, basically, the social fabric.

Jonathan Pageau: 05:22

And that is coupled with the popularization of a kind of reductionism, where people struggle to see meaning aside from just a bunch of things bumping into each other. And that culminated in the New Atheist movement, really, you know, in the early 2000s, that kind of cemented this really reductionist way of thinking. And, you know, that type of thinking just infected all of the institutions and kind of trickled down into popular culture. And so, of that, people, you know, basically are struggling to understand what is the meaning of the world and how everything fits together, you know, why we should exist. But at the same time, there is also now a counter movement that is happening in all different fields.

Jonathan Pageau: 06:10

In cogsci, We see it happening even in physics in different fields. People are kind of understanding that there needs to be these patterns of perception and patterns of meaning and that the world isn't arbitrary at all and neither our human desires are human It's not true that humans have a subjective overlay on top of a kind of objective world, but rather our very overlay is structured by the same natural forces that make the world exist. And therefore, there's like it's almost like a three sixty, right, where in the very process of trying to reducing everything and making everything into these kind of physical forces, at some point it flips back and then kind of re fills the world with with meaning and patterns. And, for sure, I think cogsci and and even psychology has been a big part of that.

Mark Odland: 07:05

Yeah. And yeah. That that's so interesting. I mean, I was at the Dave Ramsey Entre Leadership Summit in Denver this last week, and it was really interesting because these themes of the the the breakdown of our of authority in the world, the the anxiety that that comes with it. And and just this sense that people feel scattered, the and and that disconnect for meaning and purpose and understanding the world around them, understanding themselves.

Mark Odland: 07:36

It does seem to be an interesting time that we live in. Interesting is the understatement, I guess, with all that's going on. It makes me curious, Jonathan. Do you think that learning to recognize these patterns and and see the world as it is, do you feel like the foundation of be being able to think that way was something that was embedded in how you grew up your childhood or how you were educated or or your journey as an artist? Do you feel like that was kind of part of how God wired you, or do you feel like that was something that you

Jonathan Pageau: 08:09

you Yeah. It's hard to fully understand what it is that happened, you know, you know, because it's not just myself. It's it's really my brother and myself.

Mark Odland: 08:18

That's right. Yeah.

Jonathan Pageau: 08:20

Started, you know, kind of understanding the world this way and bring and kind of you know, puzzling things back together in terms of helping not only to understand and to perceive these symbolic patterns, but also to be able to communicate that to others. Because a lot of people have intuitions about symbolic patterns, but when they try to explain it, it turns into gobbledygook, woo, you know, and, you know, or conspiracy theory stuff, you know, and so it just it just kinda breaks down. Whereas, you know, we work very hard to to but question of where does it come from, it's not that easy to understand why it is that that we had this opportunity to to to have these perceptions, you know, when we did use mostly in our twenties, like early twenties is when all of this kind of started coming together.

Mark Odland: 09:07

Okay. Yeah. That that's interesting. I mean, it's it's hard to kind of go back in time and know exactly how it all converged and came together, but but here you are. And

Jonathan Pageau: 09:17

Yeah. Well, for sure, one of the I mean, we come from this weird world where my father and my mother converted from Protestantism converted from Catholicism to Protestantism in like a like a big wave. There's this, you know, back where I'm from, this French Canadian world, it used to be the most Catholic place in the world until the 1960s. And then in the late 60s, early 70s, like what happened everywhere, there's kind of like a revolution happened here, and that led to a mass exit of the Catholic Church. And part of the people that exited the Catholic church, many of them not many of them, but a certain amount of them ended up becoming Protestant.

Jonathan Pageau: 09:59

And that was my family. And so, in some ways, we it's it's hard to to understand. Like, it's this weird thing where everybody in your church is is very, very anti Catholic, like, really radically anti Catholic because they all every one of them came out of Catholicism. Like, every single person in your church is basically a convert from Catholicism. And so, I think that might also have created a kind of excess in our upbringing and in the place where we were that ultimately made us, in some ways, start to question or to look back into tradition, you could say, and to try to understand And and that's possibly part of it.

Jonathan Pageau: 10:43

It's like this weird schism that happened, you know, the generation of my parents that we're trying to to heal, but that brought us to understand things, try to understand them at the deepest level we could.

Mark Odland: 10:55

That's right. That that's that's interesting. Almost I would imagine, I mean, one of the critiques, right, of Protestantism would be kind of a breakdown of hierarchy and and a loss of tradition in some ways, and then how does it not disintegrate into kind of a a free for all or some kind of chaotic thing. And it's something I struggle with. Right?

Mark Odland: 11:19

My background is is Lutheran. I was in the ministry for a while now now more so through the counseling, but that continues to be a tension, right, between a certain understanding of scripture and then at the same time this history, this tradition that we became a part of, that we came from in the first place, right?

Jonathan Pageau: 11:39

Yeah, and I think it's also there's something also, how can I say this? Because there's a relationship between some aspect of Protestantism and secularism. It's not completely conjoined, but there's a relationship in the sense that there's a kind of suspicion of forms Sure. And a in not in all Protestantism, but in certain especially the ones that I grew up in, where in some ways, all forms are considered superstitions, where, like, all these things, you know, the architecture Right. The the ritual aspect of of the religious ceremony, it's all considered superstition.

Jonathan Pageau: 12:16

Like, in my church we didn't even say the Our Father, because we're like, shouldn't repeat the prayer because that's like a superstitious thing. You should always pray very spontaneously and improvisationally, as if authenticity was improvisation, as if authenticity was informality, right? So, there's this kind of and so, I think that it was also trying to kind of understand ritual and understand the reason for these patterns. Interesting. You know, because the ritual appears in all the Old Testament.

Jonathan Pageau: 12:47

It appears, you know, in Revelation. It appears all through scripture. And so what is it? Like, what is it we're doing? You know?

Jonathan Pageau: 12:53

Why why would we engage in these kind of rituals? And then ultimately realizing that in some ways our whole world is ritualized. Like everything about, like all our behaviors are to some extent ritualized, whether it is a conversation or a handshake or brushing your teeth, there's an order of of participation. And so it's all of that. I think that's also part part of it, when somebody is like trying to understand these things, and then ultimately trying to then reintegrate them.

Jonathan Pageau: 13:24

Because, you know, seeing the world with symbolism isn't isn't sufficient. It's a beginning because in some ways it can help you see that, let's say, the things that you might have thought were silly maybe are not as silly. Maybe that they actually have a very deep underlying pattern in them, but then you also have to participate. Right?

Mark Odland: 13:43

Right.

Jonathan Pageau: 13:44

You know, it's not just about it's not just about kind of mental mental game that we play. Right.

Mark Odland: 13:51

Right. It can't all be in the head. There has to be an experiential component of living out, engaging in that. You know, thinking again about your story, Jonathan, did just out of curiosity, did you have as a kid, did you have any thinking about fairy tales, which are something you're passionate about now, thinking about superheroes, fairy tales, heroes. As a kid, were there any particular ones that you gravitated toward or that that you found compelling in some way?

Mark Odland: 14:25

Yeah.

Jonathan Pageau: 14:26

I mean, I had I had many you know, I really obviously love stories when I was younger. I really liked I like fairy tales when I was a kid. I have very strong memories about certain fairy tales, Alice in Wonderland, you know, Jack and the Beanstalk, all these these stories from when I was young. And I was I also have memories quite young, not as a child per se, but let's say, you know, in that tween in those tween years, being curious about the stories, being curious about, like, for example, Jack and the Beanstalk wondering why that's a story in the first place. Right.

Jonathan Pageau: 15:01

And because I was already starting to be told that fairy tales are moral are morality tales. Right? It's like that the reason for fairy tales is to teach someone morals. And then I remember thinking when I was, like, 12 or 13 thinking, man, that Jack and the Beanstalk story, that's not a morality tale. Like, what's the what's the moral?

Jonathan Pageau: 15:16

Like, go go there and steal things from other people? Like, there's no moral. And I was thinking about, like, Puss in Boots and all these stories, I'm like, these are not moral stories. Like, when people tell you there's a more what's the moral of Puss in Boots? It's like lie and trick, you know, and do all these things in order to basically like make your and so I remember even having those questions, and then it's older that I started to look into it more and realize that there's more going on, obviously, in these stories.

Jonathan Pageau: 15:47

But as a as a early teenager, you know, it was also like it was just I was just a a child of my times. Like, I I became very much interested in in in Batman. Like, I really love Batman. I was like, 13 is when I think when I was 13 is when the Tim Burton movie came out. And then, I like Frank Miller, had put out his Dark Knight comic just a few years before.

Jonathan Pageau: 16:08

And so, there was like there's just a lot of buzz about about this trying to take these kind of pop these pop stories and then giving them a layer that would make them, you know, kind of more deeper or trying to look into the mythological aspects or the the more kind of, you know, almost even psychic aspects. I remember, Grant Morrison had written that Arkham Asylum comic, which was Batman in the Arkham Asylum. And then all his enemies are basically like aspects of his psyche and psych obsessions. And so, it's almost like he's dealing with his fragmented psyche as he's encountering these different bad guys in the asylum. And I remember I was like 14 when that came out, or 15, and being really impressed by it and thinking, wow, there's something you can do with stories that's very powerful.

Jonathan Pageau: 16:58

And then it's only later realizing that a lot of the stories that I'd taken for granted, for example, the Bible stories actually were the deepest versions of that, that they actually had layers upon layers that these modern stories couldn't even touch, you know?

Mark Odland: 17:13

Wow. Yeah, and you're doing that, you're actively pursuing that with symbolic world press right now, right, with your books?

Jonathan Pageau: 17:22

Yeah, and so one of the things you're trying to do, you know, because a lot of people complain about the state of culture, and I do, you know, I complain about the state of culture. But I think that at some point we also have to step in, you know, and if we think that, for example, children's books are becoming like ugly and propagandistic and, and you know, are lacking the kind of celebration and beautiful elements that were in the old fairy tale books and you know, let's do it, like let's just do it. And so, we're trying to retell the old fairy tales in a way that is beautiful, celebratory, insightful, and that also brings in even some insight for the grown ups. And one of the things that the postmoderns did with fairy tales, which was pretty smart, is that, you know, they made these fairy tale movies like Shrek, for example, where it's like a mishmash of fairy tales. It's really kinda smart in that way where they kinda mix the fairy tales together.

Jonathan Pageau: 18:16

And then there's like the kids reading where you watch and it's like there's joke, but then there's also adult reading. And the adult reading is just dirty jokes, basically. It's just basically cynicism, dirty jokes, you know. And so I thought, like, can't we have an adult reading that's actually insightful, that is actually helping the parent realize why they're telling that story in the first place or help the parent realize why even as a child they were fascinated by this story. And so that's what we try to do.

Jonathan Pageau: 18:43

So the fairy tales can be read to children, just straight up fairy tale for kids, and they are beautifully illustrated, very attentive to the detail. And then at the same time for those that have the eyes to see there are these hints about how these stories connect to ancient mythology and to and to other stories.

Mark Odland: 19:01

Very cool. Very cool. Yeah, that's that's awesome. So the yeah. There's so much power so much power in the stories and in the symbols.

Mark Odland: 19:11

And it makes me wonder too, Jonathan, like, thinking about your own your own journey is do you almost feel like things seeing things symbolically is almost like, at this point, an operating system that's just part of who you are, or do you feel like you have to be intentional to apply it? So, like, for example, there's a lot of suffering in this life. Right? And when you think about going through something difficult in life or something challenging, is it something where that just kind of flows out of you as you cope with it, as as you work through it, as you try to overcome difficult things, or or is it something where you have to say, I I need to apply this in some way?

Jonathan Pageau: 19:57

Yeah. Well, yeah, I hope so. I mean, I think that, for example, one of the insights that you get from understanding symbolic stories, know, even if it's you consider something as simple as the hero's journey, you know, this kind of basic story structure that Joseph Campbell tried to describe. One of the things you realize is that obstacles and difficulties and suffering is always also an opportunity. Because as the world that you're part of is kind of falling apart or is breaking down in different ways, it is not to belittle that, right?

Jonathan Pageau: 20:38

It not to say, Well, it is not a big deal, like you know, it is just an opportunity. No, it is suffering and it is painful and there is room for weeping and gnashing of teeth, all that stuff is part of life. Then, realizing that all suffering is an opportunity for change. Even your own sins, like even when you sin. When you sin, there s no celebrating sin, but every time you sin and you face the consequences of your sin, that is actually an opportunity to transform.

Jonathan Pageau: 21:12

And so, think that that is one thing that I try to always keep, is that when I go through obstacles or through difficult things, always try to be as much in the position where instead of simply suffering, although it is normal to suffer, I also have my eyes open for changes that are possible in that transformation. You know, like when you realize, like, let's say, friendship ends or a, you know, a you lose your job or whatever. All of these are tragic things, but, you know, all of a sudden, the world becomes possibility again, you know. And so, it it is it is it also can be an opportunity to to kinda find that treasure in the dark place.

Mark Odland: 21:56

You know? Yeah. Definitely. I mean, in some Christian circles, it almost might feel cliche when people say, well, it's only in hindsight that you look back and see how God was at work. But I wonder if that still holds true in your experience.

Mark Odland: 22:11

Is that limited in how people frame that? Or is that do you feel like an accurate

Jonathan Pageau: 22:17

No. I think that that I think that that's definitely true, you know. But I think that you can also, in those moments, can find the best internal stance possible, like, you know, the one that is the least destructive and in some ways to kind of. One of the things you can also do when things are breaking down and when difficult things are happening is to kind of stop. To stop acting, You know, because sometimes we start flailing and then we start, you know, hitting in every direction and, you know, we panic and we I mean, you know, that happens to me still, obviously.

Jonathan Pageau: 23:01

Sure. But, usually the best stance is in some ways to to kind of be attentive, to just stop and be attentive because the in that in that kind of chaos, glimmers are always there. And it's easier, like it's funny because it's easier to see it in other people. Obviously, it's harder to see it in yourself, but like you, if you, when you're with people that are often going through difficulties, you know, sometimes you're like, you can kind of see, you know, what brought them there, but you can also kind of see, what it is or the best stance they could have in that position in order to find the best opportunity to move out of it. It's hard because when you tell people, obviously you can't just tell they are like, it's annoying when someone says that.

Jonathan Pageau: 23:46

But what I'm saying is when you notice it in others, you know, maybe the best thing to do is to realize that that's also true for you. You just have to now, when it happens to you, try to pay attention in the same way you were able to pay attention to watching your friend kind of go through his divorce and think like, okay, you know, whatever, you know, but maybe now it's too late, it's all happened now, like, it's all broken, so now let's see how we can put it back, put things back together in the best way possible, because there's no going back, you know. I mean, that's an example, but like that's

Mark Odland: 24:20

powerful because and that's not an easy thing to do. I mean, in my line of work as a as a therapist, I see so often people have kind of a unhelpful way that they go to this place of extreme shame. It's not like a god given guilt that's corrective, and you could be like, okay. This has got my attention. Now it can point me in in a proper direction.

Mark Odland: 24:42

And instead, it's almost like this place of wallowing, of turning inward.

Jonathan Pageau: 24:46

Oh, yeah.

Mark Odland: 24:46

And and it just becomes so destructive because they aren't in a space to receive any kind of criticism because that wound and wound is so deep. I mean, of course, I'm conceptualizing it through that kind of therapy lens. But to be able to that paradox. Right? That we're Yeah.

Mark Odland: 25:05

We're saint we're sinners, and we're fallen, and and and we are kind of in an active state of rebellion most of the time towards our creator. And yet, we're also creating his image and and we're so valuable. He went to the cross for us.

Jonathan Pageau: 25:21

And Yeah. Well, one of the thing one of the things, Mark, is to understand that wallowing is pride. That's what wallowing is.

Mark Odland: 25:28

Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Pageau: 25:29

It's like when you wallow when you self deprecate and you wallow and you just kind of you just kind of feel that that, like, paralyzing shame. It's because you think you're more than you really are. It's because you think you should be more than what you are, you know. Interesting. And so, true the true shame, like, or the true humility is to think that no, you don't.

Jonathan Pageau: 25:55

It's not true. It's like, oh, I should have been better than that. Like, I'm better than that. Like, no, you're not better than

Mark Odland: 25:59

that. Right.

Jonathan Pageau: 26:01

You're not. Right. And so, now get over it. Like, get over the fact you're not better than that and now here's an opportunity for you to kind of to move in the right direction. And so, know this is a little rough, it's tough to say that, but I think that, you know, because one of the things that when we feel sorry for ourselves or when we feel this kind of wallowing, self deprecating, know, self accusing thing, you know, there's a reason why the devil is called the accuser.

Jonathan Pageau: 26:28

There's a reason why Satan is called that because there's an aspect of pride in that, like, how can I say this, in like this acceptance of excessive guilt the sense excessive guilt in the sense that yeah, you're guilty, but there's a sense in which we think that this guilt is so crushing because I think I'm better than that? I actually, there's a disjoint between what I think I am and what I've just done. No, it's like, no, you're exactly what you've just done, right? Like let's now see that properly in the right way and not just you but everybody, like everybody is broken, everybody's beaten up, everybody's sins, like your sins aren't special, you know, this is what I tell like, I tell my daughter this, like she doesn't want to go to confession, you know, to the She's like, you know, it's shameful, it's humiliating, I'm like, you know, your sins aren't special, dude, Like, your sins are not special. It's like we anyways, so that's what I mean.

Jonathan Pageau: 27:26

I think that there is when you sin, sin is actually always an opportunity. It's an opportunity to see yourself and to change, you know. It's better when you feel that especially that first strike of guilt, like you just feel When you do something, when you lie, or when you, I don't know, you insult, when you mock someone or when you belittle someone or whatever it is that you're doing that's that's bad. It's like when that first strike, you just grab on to that, not like as a as a way to self flagellate, but as like a literally like a thing to make you float back up, like grab on to it man and just hold on because that'll take you out of your if you can grab on to it properly it'll take you out, you know.

Mark Odland: 28:14

I love that. I had a picture of like holding on to a big balloon and you're just like, yeah exactly, floating on. And you know the other kind of image that came to mind a few minutes ago, Jonathan, talked about flailing, kind of flailing around in our sins, knowing that we're in that place. Back in college, my my grandfather passed away and special guy in my life, and he you know, we're lucky because he had been in the midst of writing his autobiography. And it was unfinished, but it was still just just this treasure trove of information about his life.

Mark Odland: 28:47

And so, I was able to kind of type it up and kinda get it into a form for the family. And one of the stories in there was he was a teenager living in a little little town in Minnesota, and he was a lifeguard for the summer. And he talked about when people would drown, that's exactly what they would do. They would flail. And so one of the, you know, mythological I think it was real, but one of the stories was he had to swim out and there's this big tough dude who was flailing as he was drowning and my grandpa had to punch him.

Mark Odland: 29:17

He had to kind of I don't know if he knocked him out but he had to kind of knock him out in a way so he could grab on to him and then rescue him and bring him back to shore. Yeah. And it's just so that just kinda stuck with me as you were talking about that. How often are we in some way drowning or flailing and we are either too panicky or too prideful or or too whatever to see it for what it is? And I don't know if surrender is the right word, but to just okay.

Mark Odland: 29:44

And then see it as an opportunity.

Jonathan Pageau: 29:46

So Yeah. But at least stop.

Mark Odland: 29:48

Like At

Jonathan Pageau: 29:48

least stop. At least just stop. Exactly. There's an image in scripture that's beautiful. It's the image of Jonah in the in the belly of the whale.

Jonathan Pageau: 29:57

Yep. You know, it says you know, because Jonah obviously rebelled against God, didn't do what God wanted, and because of that, he paid the price. He had to suffer death. You know? He he he gets taken down into the into shale, into the into death.

Jonathan Pageau: 30:12

But then it says that he remembers God. Mhmm. And that's all. Like, that's really it. It's like if you if you remember God and you remember your position, you know, that's why we say, Lord, have mercy, like Kiri Eilishon, which is this idea when we say, Lord, have mercy, is to say it's like, I remember God, and I realize that it's like I just have to be in the right position.

Jonathan Pageau: 30:36

It's like, mercy comes from you down to me. I don't I am not, like, in myself. I don't have everything I need to do what I'm gonna do, you know. It's like Yeah. And so, I think that that that that's a good thing to it's a good way to kinda still the panic and to still, like, the the chaos.

Mark Odland: 30:57

I love that. I I think that's this might kinda transition us into the next topic, but I think there yeah. There's something so powerful of memory. Like like you're saying, remembering God and and reminded me of a Good Friday sermon once I heard, and and the pastor contrasted remembering versus dismembering.

Jonathan Pageau: 31:18

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 31:19

Dismembering being like this disintegration of identity, of of self, of of life. And the thief on the cross, remember me, Jesus, when you come into your kingdom. There's something about remembering God and the idea that God could possibly remember us is just is such a comforting powerful thing and and a reason for hope. Yeah.

Jonathan Pageau: 31:40

Yeah. And you see that's a that you see that in scripture too, by the way, because in the story of Noah, in the story of Jonah, it's Jonah that remembers God. It said Jonah remembered God. But in the story of Noah, it says, God remembered Noah Mhmm. During the flood, like, on the water.

Jonathan Pageau: 31:54

It's it's like the, you know, the world is God is when God remembers you, when you remember God, it's the it's the possibility of a new beginning.

Mark Odland: 32:02

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, yeah. So this theme of memory kinda transitions us into, you know, my work as an EMDR therapist.

Mark Odland: 32:12

And I know you have some familiar we've talked a little bit about that in a previous conversation. But coming into our conversation today, I wanted to throw out just throw out a little bit and just kinda see what you thought of it, just kind of what sparks you. But the research kinda proven protocol for how we introduce a client to the traumatic memory that we're going to heal, to desensitize, and to open up the brain to adaptive healing information. The script is interesting because the first thing that we ask is what picture or image represents the worst part of it. Mhmm.

Mark Odland: 32:49

And then it goes on to what's essentially what's the lie, the negative cognition, and what are the emotions and the body sensations that go with it. And we take baseline measurements to kinda measure how intense those things are. But what I find interesting is that oftentimes one of the hallmarks of a traumatic memory that's actually healed is that the image or the symbol essentially has has visually faded or it feels further away or it's actually been replaced by another image or metaphor that has almost taken its place. And what comes with it is oftentimes, a deeper felt sense of the truth about themselves and the situation they went through and a decrease in the anxiety they that they've that they're experiencing in real time, the way that their body is is is responding. And so I'd be curious about any thoughts that come to mind for you as well as kind of this idea of how emotions or beliefs could almost be embedded in in the symbols, in the images that we carry ourselves.

Jonathan Pageau: 34:05

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that the I mean, the best way to think about this is that there events that happen to us, you know, there are how can I say this? Like, this is gonna sound weird for people who hadn't thought about it this way. But it's like when an event happens to you, there are a lot of things happening simultaneously.

Jonathan Pageau: 34:28

Right? And so, you know, your pants are rubbing against your legs, like, you know, your hair is moving and there are all these things going on. There's ambient sounds, there's all of this stuff that's going on, but there is something that's happening that is obviously more salient, you know, and is becoming the thing that you are focusing on, right? The thing that you're attending to. And that attention has to do with care.

Jonathan Pageau: 34:55

Like, has to do with what's important to you, both positive and negative. Either way, it's like if you have a very positive memory, it's because there's something going on that connects to something that you care about that is what makes that moment heightened, right? And what makes it heightened, but it's also true, of course, in a negative way, right? That there are things that happen to you that you care about because of self preservation, because of all kinds of reasons that you have, and therefore that moment becomes extremely salient and then becomes a major node, right, you could say, in your story. So, you can imagine that your life is a sequence of these important moments.

Mark Odland: 35:40

Yes.

Jonathan Pageau: 35:41

And there are memories of them that are strung together by you, strung together in a kind of semi coherent narrative of what who you are and what and and you're you're but you always have to remember that all there's all bunch of other things going on that you don't necessarily string into that line of events, right? You're sleeping, you're doing homework, you're doing all these things, but those things you don't really remember that much because they're not. They don't have that like attention of care that certain very heightened moments will have. Now, know, you can imagine that when something very traumatic happens to you, there there is this danger, of course, that because of its of how intense it is, it kind of it kinda climbs the hierarchy of who you are. Right?

Jonathan Pageau: 36:30

It kind of becomes the the central thing around which everything else starts to turn, and it starts to kind of gather all those other memories into it. It does all this it's almost like a this weird vacuum that kind of tries to to swallow you up. Right? Because of the intensity of what of what happened. Yeah.

Jonathan Pageau: 36:51

Because you you identified with so much. Right? That you you know, like I said, that it becomes this vortex. And so And that is something that I mean, it's understandable that that something like that happens. It's not surprising.

Jonathan Pageau: 37:07

But you can also understand that it's not necessary. Right? It's not necessary that your identity is completely swallowed into one event, let's say, or a few events that have had a massive effect on you. And that there is a possibility that the most important aspects of who you are or maybe other things in that happened in your life like your wedding, like your child being born, like all these beautiful wonderful things that are part of your story. And so, what I think that I like about EMDR, at least my understanding of it, is that it understands that.

Jonathan Pageau: 37:50

It's like, it kinda sees that there is something that happened to you that's so salient, Like, it's such a shock that it's trying to swallow you into it. Like, it's an event that's trying to swallow all of you into this event. Your body, your memories, you know, your emotions. And it's not completely willful. Like, it's something that it's almost that that that's that's almost automatic, you know?

Jonathan Pageau: 38:11

Yes. But that there is also a way to reorient those memories. Or a good way of saying it is the way you said it, it feels further away. It's like to not to get rid of it, not forget it, but to place it in its proper place in the hierarchy of who you are. Like to replace it and say, yes, this happened to me.

Jonathan Pageau: 38:32

Yes, this has some importance, but it is not me. It is not the fullness of who I am and like you said trying to kind of disassociate or to in some ways how can I say this like actually deconstruct the memory? Like you know you talked about dismembering, right? It's like that is what you want to do to a traumatic memory. It's weird to think about it that way, but you're actually dismembering it.

Jonathan Pageau: 39:00

You're actually saying you're breaking it down to its elements, you're removing, you're trying to separate the emotion from the the the memory, you're doing all these things because you're trying to make it less of a sacred thing, like a sacred center around which everything turns. And so, I think I think it's a it's a it's a powerful it's a powerful tool. And, you know, and it looks in some ways like, you know, like there are several traditional practices that that are are related to that. Like, for example, like, the fact the ritualization of ancient life, right, the idea of having initiation rituals of having, you know, very like, having marriage rituals of having these moments of of high high high salience Yes. That are there to kinda capture you and tell you like, this is who you

Mark Odland: 39:56

are. Yes.

Jonathan Pageau: 39:57

You know, that that person that took his first communion, you know, after confirmation or whatever, that's you my friend, like that's you. One of the things I think that the in some ways what's happened in the modern world is because we like this worship of the informal, like I said, like this kind of dismissing of this of celebration, this dismissing of high moments, you know, this kind of reduction of everything to be everything being flat is that that's not true. That's actually a lie. And people that are in that world, I think, are more in danger of being captured by trauma because in some ways they don't have this hierarchy in which to embed themselves. They don't know to know, not even just rationally, but just know what it is that they are, who they are, what they participate in, like what are they a part of.

Jonathan Pageau: 40:50

And so when something happens that's extremely salient and traumatic, it basically captures their entire being and becomes almost impossible to get rid of, you know?

Mark Odland: 41:00

Wow. That yeah. That is that's awesome, Jonathan. I'm gonna be excited to rewatch that because there's so much gold in what you just said. It's it's like, hey.

Mark Odland: 41:10

I I think this you know, you you know, you you're I'm sure you're not very busy with your travels and your press and your podcast. Why don't I think you might become an EMDR therapist on the Right? I love where you're going with it because it's another way to think about in the EMDR session, we are dismembering the traumatic memory, and we're opening up the mind spontaneously to connect to those salient beautiful experiences connected to meaning and identity. And and that's if there is a limitation to EMDR, as powerful as it is, is is that it's limited to what's already in the memory network of that person. And so if I have a client who has has not had beautiful powerful moments like that wedding, like that moment with their dad when they were 14, with the experience with God at church, their brain is just searching and searching and searching for something to grab on

Jonathan Pageau: 42:13

to

Mark Odland: 42:14

to say maybe this is true instead of this. And then there's that art of planting seeds and and starting from the ground up in a way with that person because but when I get a client who's coming because they already wanna integrate their faith, they already have some kind of background with some of these positive experiences alongside the trauma, it's so it's so beautiful and exciting to see because their their mind just just it's connecting to these places. And then they go back to the original memory, and like you said, they're like, wow. Like, it's further away. Right?

Mark Odland: 42:48

It's it's further away. It's it's calm. It's fuzzy. And now I think about this instead. I think about when I got married.

Mark Odland: 42:54

I think about, you know, a memory where their deep lie is I'm worthless, completely worthless or or bad or horrible. And and now after EMDR, these other two or three memories of an experience in church, a loving grandmother who showed them that they were worth so they were valuable. They were loved. Now that is taking up the space. Yeah.

Mark Odland: 43:19

And it and and it helps it and it's not like I have to go through these three steps to remember that grandma loved me. Now it's like the nervous system takes it in, and and they don't have to try so hard. It's just it's almost like it's shifted the way that they're they're seeing things

Jonathan Pageau: 43:35

Yeah.

Mark Odland: 43:36

Which is which is exciting and powerful.

Jonathan Pageau: 43:38

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think it's important can I say it? Like, it's important also because one of the things that you could say about this, like, you know, if you were to be cynical is you could say, you know, it's like you're basically twisting the world. Like, right, you're you're faking it.

Jonathan Pageau: 43:53

Like, you're you're you're you're kind of creating a fiction, you know, in this person's life in order to replace something horrible that happened to them. You know, that could be the cynical take on this. But the truth is the very opposite. Right? It's like, you could say, you know, I mean, the simple example is like replace the memory in the hierarchy of what's salient to you.

Jonathan Pageau: 44:16

Like, replace the memory of my loving grandmother. I've said replace the trauma with a memory of my loving grandmother. You would say, oh, you're just you're just be right. You're just fudging it. You are just trying to pretend.

Jonathan Pageau: 44:27

But the truth is that there is one of those memories that is life giving and there is one of those memories that is life negating. Right? There is one of those memories that if you make it the center of your being, it leads to all darkness. It leads to death and desperation and, you know, and suicidality and all of these things. There's another version that leads to basically a spiral up, right?

Jonathan Pageau: 44:50

It's like a possibility to ingrain yourself in something to imitate someone to then reproduce that behavior, you know, with the people around you. And that is true. Like, it's true in the sense of, you know, life is not just facts. Like, life is orientations. And life is, you know, it's the imitation of that which is good and so and the becoming good.

Jonathan Pageau: 45:15

And so, I think that it is objectively true that the love that your grandmother had for you is more real than this trauma that you went through. Like, it is it is objectively true because it is life affirming, and the other one is negate is is a kind of negation of being.

Mark Odland: 45:36

Yes. Beautifully said. Beautifully said. Well, I know we're getting close to wrapping up our time, Jonathan. One of the questions I like to ask our guests and of course we could be spend a whole podcast on this, but in a succinct way, you know, a lot of my a lot of the guys I work with are business owners, entrepreneurs, and they're pretty successful, but they're struggling to understand what does it mean to be a loving husband, a loving father, a successful businessman, and and essentially, what does it mean to be a man?

Mark Odland: 46:09

And that that is a complicated question with lots of cultural shallow potential answers. Right? But if if if there was a way to put into words from your perspective, what does it mean to be a man? I'd be curious what you'd say.

Jonathan Pageau: 46:26

Yeah. But, I mean, I think that there's a there is a reason why, in some ways, men have this drive in this kind of external drive in to build things, to make things, to create, to, you know, to master things. All of this all of this is a very positive element of masculinity. And it's something that, of course, has been, you know, degraded in the past few decades, like, it's been mocked as just power, as just tyranny in something, but it isn't, right? It's actually, you could say, an element of how God created Adam, you know, to be the gardener, to kind of be the one who has dominion over creation.

Jonathan Pageau: 47:14

Now, can that go wrong? And the answer is, yeah, of course it can go wrong. It goes wrong all the time. And the secret is really in the example that Christ gave us, you know, is to kind of understand that the reason for a leader and the reason for mastery is offering, you know. You know, the reason why you would master anything, the reason why you would become the leader of anything or that you would create everything always in some ways has to ultimately be framed under the notion that it is an offering, that it is an offering to God, that it is an offering to others.

Jonathan Pageau: 47:55

And so, if we understand that, you know, if we understand it deeply, then the balance, let's say, between, let's say, your career and your family won't be as difficult to manage because, you know, you'll feel when, you'd say, your work and your family and your work life and your career and the things you're building are becoming an obsession in themselves. And you can usually sense that when you are in fact neglecting your Because if it is an offering, then you are not supposed to sacrifice your children for whatever it is you are building. That is not the case. Like, is a wrong way of understanding it, but rather you should be making things in order to become, you know, to serve your community, to serve your family and ultimately to serve God. So, I think that that's the way to understand it.

Jonathan Pageau: 48:51

It's that all of the things about masculinity, you know, the kind of warrior aspect that we have, all of those are good, but they they're only good if they're put in service of something, both that which is greater than you in the sense of giving to God, but also in service of that of those that are weaker, those that that that that can use your strength, you know, in order to make themselves better. So, it's like the image of the night a great example. Like, true like the the true image of the knight who fights but doesn't fight only for his honor, but fights for those that can't fight for themselves. You know?

Mark Odland: 49:27

Yes. Yes. Wow. Well, I think you may have indirectly answered my last question, which is someday someday with when you are eternally with the Lord, you're not on this earth. How would you, Jonathan Pageau, like to be remembered?

Mark Odland: 49:47

As fleeting as this world is. Or at least the last next generation. Yeah. We don't don't know much about our great grandparents. Right?

Mark Odland: 49:54

But, I would just be curious what, if anything, how you'd respond to that.

Jonathan Pageau: 50:00

I mean, I don't know. I I don't think about that. But I would say, if I had to think about it, you know, I think that if in terms of, let's say, what I'm doing, you know, obviously, I hope that I'm remembered by my family and and my friends for our relationship. But I'm hoping that, like, I'd say in terms of the things that I'm doing professionally, the the work that I'm doing, that if I if I can be remembered as someone that helped a generation of young people to reunderstand their faith, you know, in a way that was that made sense in the modern world. Like, I think that that the best aspect of what I'm doing is, like, it's not just me, but there's a whole bunch of people.

Jonathan Pageau: 50:47

We're kind of like there's like a wave of people that are are doing that. And and, yeah, if I can be remembered as someone who had played a part in that, then that I'll be very grateful.

Mark Odland: 50:57

Yeah. Well, I I'm I'm grateful for you, Jonathan. And I I really appreciate and honored that you would take the time to do this today. And I've appreciated our other conversations and the your willingness to entertain my my crazy rabbit holes that I go down. And and and just appreciate as a fellow brother in Christ getting to know you a a little bit better.

Mark Odland: 51:19

So thank you so much for being on the podcast, and and and and let us know how can people find you if they're interested in your work or learning more. How what's the best way?

Jonathan Pageau: 51:28

Yeah. So people can go to the symbolicworld.com and there you'll find everything like the YouTube channels, the books, the courses we give. Yeah. And that's the way to find me. Yeah.

Jonathan Pageau: 51:38

And thank you as well for this this opportunity. It's weird because it's not something that I would talk about naturally. So it's kind of fun to to talk about things that are a little bit outside of my usual wheelhouse, hopefully in a way that's coherent and makes sense. So I appreciate it as well. Thanks, Mark.

Mark Odland: 51:54

Yeah. You're so welcome, Jonathan. Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening, and we'll talk to you later.