So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

In this episode, Megan & Jennifer are joined by the incomparable Roy Sexton, Chief Marketing Officer at Vedder Price, former International President of the Legal Marketing Association, and one of INvolve’s Top 100 OUTstanding LGBTQ+ Executives. 

In this warm, funny, and deeply insightful conversation, Roy opens up about how he’s learned to lead without losing himself, including why he no longer ties his self-worth to professional validation, what helped him climb out of burnout, and how he approaches every CMO role with humility and curiosity. He shares the unexpected path that led him into legal marketing (spoiler: it involves penny loafers, a theater degree, and a rocking chair), his take on building true connection through content, and the power of karaoke. 

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Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. Where we explore behind-the-scenes of work, life, and everything in between. We're your hosts - Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we're here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real struggles of balancing work with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. We're bringing you real stories, candid conversations, and smart insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer - what makes you human? So whether you’re navigating billable hours or breaking glass ceilings in a woman-owned practice, this podcast is for you. Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human). 

Roy Sexton: [00:00:00] I think it is the human condition to go through pelzer. Like nobody cares about this thing that I care so deeply about, but it's because everyone's walking around feeling that way. They can't, they don't have the energy or the bandwidth to think outside of the pain they're carrying around it. But I know I entered that with a lot of insecurity and wrapping too much of my identity and self-worth in my job.
I have not made that same mistake here. I'm keeping enough distance and I'm not relying on that validation. You come from within these walls.
Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work life and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we wanna know what makes you human.
Jennifer Ramsey: And with that, let's get started. It is. Our great honor to welcome Roy Sexton to our podcast today. Roy has spent the last 25 years helping law firms grow through smart marketing, [00:01:00] strategic storytelling, and a whole lot of heart. He is the chief marketing officer at Better Price, where he leads marketing, branding, and communications, and has been a driving force behind award-winning campaigns that blend strategy.
Creativity and purpose. He has advised countless attorneys on how to build their brands. He has hosted the webcast, all the world's your stage, and has served as international president of the Legal Marketing Association. Roy's also a published author, an award-winning performer, and was named one of Involve People's 2023 executives, and he was named 2024 top 100 outstanding LPG.
TQ plus executives internationally.
Roy Sexton: Say that 10 times fast. Yeah. Oh my
Jennifer Ramsey: goodness. I am, woo. I need to wet my whistle here. After that, Roy was also listed in Cranes Detroit. Notable L-G-B-T-Q in business in 2021, and notable leaders in marketing in 2023. [00:02:00] Basically he's part marketer, part theater kid, part connector, and 100% someone with so much to say.
And if you are really lucky, you might get to hear him sing. And I'm almost hoping that we might be able to do a little duet on the podcast together today. I just saw your, um, LinkedIn post Roy, where you were singing at Firm Tree and you were singing Cynthia or Vivos, uh, was it Define Gravity.
Roy Sexton: Define Gravity, yeah.
We had a,
Jennifer Ramsey: Everyone must go look at that link I was. You have a beautiful voice.
Roy Sexton: You're very kind and a
Jennifer Ramsey: beautiful presence.
Roy Sexton: You're very kind. My husband had also made the critical error of signing me up for a motorcycle. Uh, safety class, which overlapped with this event. So I had to throw off my sequin jacket and leave shortly thereafter and get in the car and start a four hour zoom session with a man who was yelling at us the whole time.
Turn on your cameras, punch on answers to questions. Why are you late? I'm like, I'm on at six. You're on six, you're late. I'm like, two days. In person , this weekend.
Megan Senese: If that's an, [00:03:00] and that's like you can be a performer, CMO and take a motorcycle, you
Roy Sexton: know, crash. Right? Amazed means I can be a Shriner now. I don't know.
Megan Senese: I love this. So welcome, welcome to our show. Welcome.
Roy Sexton: Thank you for that lovely introduction. I tend to step on anything that is nice about me and start making fun of myself. Instantly
Jennifer Ramsey: We can unpack that. It was really
Roy Sexton: lovely. We can just stop right there 'cause that sounded really good.
Jennifer Ramsey: Aw,
Megan Senese: Well that's true.
It was all
Roy Sexton: true. That's all. It's downhill from here.
Megan Senese: No, no, no. I'm super excited to learn more about you. And this has been like the third time people have said this today, but the person behind the profile right, is where people keep Yeah, it's really good and sexy. So I'd love to learn more about it, yes.
More about you as a person and your new role and just, you know. A little bit about your story and who are you? Who, who are you? Rory. So tell, tell us, talk to us a little. Start back. I was born on, I was born.
Roy Sexton: No, I, uh, [00:04:00] you know, I have lived my life by serendipity and it's mostly served me well. Um, I'd like to say I had a master plan.
I did not, I, you know, I, I was an only child and my parents were very supportive, very progressive in the way they raised me. I was that kid. I called my parents by their first names because they didn't know the words mom and dad, and they didn't correct me because they thought if I was kidnapped, it would be good that I knew their names.
Uh, it was the seventies. They were worried about that. Um, and, um, you know, she sent me off to kindergarten. My mom, I was, uh, wearing penny loafers and carrying a briefcase, and then she wondered why people were beating me up. I learned then by second grade to make people laugh and then they'd stop beating me up.
And by third grade or fourth grade, all the kids that were hurting me were, their parents were getting divorced and they were coming to our house and eating. And I'm like, okay, now I understand. They had some stuff going on and I was the idiot with penny loafers. It was easy to pick on. So this is. This is my life and a microcosm, uh, rinse, repeat, no.
So, you know, I, but my parents were always like, you know, do what makes you [00:05:00] happy. And we were a creative home. We wrote together, we did art. You know, my mother entered every contest that came through in the mail. And so it really explains a lot of my weirdness. And I think a lot of the things I do, I, it might on paper seem like I do these things to satiate my own ego.
And I suppose. To some degree I do, but it's just because I grew up in a home where it was expressing yourself. It was part of living, putting your thoughts out there and your ideas weren't as much about you, but were your way to connect with others. So every step I've taken in my career path inadvertently, I was an English theater major in college 'cause my parents didn't.
I think I needed to worry about what my job would be. They just study what you like. And then I got a master's in theater 'cause why not hit a snooze button on college when you like it? And then I realized, uh, I will not be on their insurance much longer. I need to do something. So I ended up working in fundraising for a while.
Talked me into a job at Deloitte. I still don't know why they hired me as a consultant, but they did. I'm sorry [00:06:00] for this. The, uh, clients that I supported. Uh, and then I was in, uh, the healthcare practice. 'cause it was one that made sense to me at Deloitte at the time and ended up at a healthcare system. And I thought, well, when I figure out I wanna be, when I grow up, I will, you know, move on.
Well, I stayed there for 12 years. It was a great organization and I feel like they had a good instinct every time I was maybe thinking about making a move, I got a promotion, I got another leadership opportunity, you know. Taught me early on. The more you put into your own people, the more they're gonna stick around.
They're gonna feel a sense of ownership, loyalty, and cohesion. And after about 12 years of healthcare, I was like, I worked with an executive coach once who said, you like to throw yourself in harm's way just to see what will happen. And just not wrong about that. I was a kid that took things apart just to see how they worked.
And then I never knew how to put 'em back together much to my mother's.
Megan Senese: Like, what? What would you take apart? Like I had,
Roy Sexton: I had a rocking chair. I, no anything, anything. I had a rocking chair that had a little music box attached to it. Rockers. Well, I was just, I wanted to know how it worked, [00:07:00] so I punched a hole in it and my mother came upstairs and she's like, what happened?
And I was like, nothing. I wasn't destructive. I just was inquisitive. She's like, okay. There goes that. But, after I, I just felt like with healthcare, I learned everything I could learn and just threw my resume out there and got hired by my first firm in 2012, and that's when I joined the Legal Marketing Association.
I found this sense of community. And I think, you know, I was nearly 40 at that point and I'm like, oh, finally, I think I've found a calling where everything has sort of come together. The, the, the sense that I had in healthcare, we were marketing. A human being, the doctor, the nursing staff. But in the, in the larger guise of a product and a set of services that applied the sense of narrative that I learned from my theater life audience building that I learned kind of throughout my career, and also just the, the unique quirky personalities that, that we have in legal.
And I found that I really enjoyed working with some of those challenging personalities and realizing that much like me, they [00:08:00] were, they weren't. Being challenging to be challenging. They just didn't understand the language I was using and I didn't understand the language they were using. So when we could find that common ground of what they wanted to be, how they wanted to be seen, uh, I felt like I could make a difference.
And I've enjoyed that. And I've been at four different firms, successively, larger, more complex organizations or roles and, and now I find myself here.
Megan Senese: Yeah. Well thank you for all of that. And I think it's so kind of interesting. So Jen was at, you started, well you started with finance, but you were at Arthur Anderson and I was with KPMG and where I started.
And so it's interesting, but not surprising to hear so many like legal marketers starting in accounting firms. Also, this has nothing to do with anything except um, your teeth look amazing, by the way. 'cause I know that you and I both did Invisalign right around the same time.
Roy Sexton: I thank you. I just do this.
Yeah.
Megan Senese: I just wanted to say, we all have done the Inez line. Yeah. I just wanted to, just wanted to tell you that they looked nice. I just figured, you know, beautiful [00:09:00] smiles, beautiful smiles on this podcast, all this money for your teeth. So I just thought I'd shout that out.
Roy Sexton: Shout that out. No, I appreciate it. That's really nice.
I thank you for appreciating that. Well, you know, I mean, and I, I think it, it befuddles some people, especially in legal. I do share just about everything. Uh, and again, it's not because I want the attention, somebody begged to differ, but it does create connecting points. You remembered that I was getting Invisalign and I was pleased with it, and I wasn't ashamed to admit.
That I had some embarrassment about my teeth and here it was, and I appreciated my doctor, Dr. Nik. Thank you in Ann Arbor. Uh, but you, you remembered that. You see, see, and that, that's how I try to get attorneys to the point of UNC Unclench from this. I've been listed in chambers and I have all the awards and the things.
Yeah. Great. People assume that they go into a restaurant assuming they're not gonna get food poisoning. What is the. Extra. How do you connect with them? What are the parts of your personal life that someone is gonna go, oh, you know, [00:10:00] one of the boards I was on was Ronald McDonald House, and I didn't do it for this reason, but my God, being on the board of Ronald McDonald House, that's, you just say that to any crowd of people, and there are about 12 folks that have had some benefit from that organization became this connecting point.
Megan Senese: Yeah, I mean, I, I think it, it, it does take a little bit, so Jen and I are kind of on opposite. Sharing spectrums. Right. So I, I share a lot as, as you know, Roy, but that's also how I've been able to meet a lot of people, generally sharing a lot in person. And so I think, you know, you have to find where you are, where you're comfortable.
Roy Sexton: Yeah. I never am one to push people, you know, if an attorney, you know, I used to be that person, like everybody on social media, now I realize. No, they'll come to it when they come to it if they want to come to it. Right. But I'll also note for them, if you're not that demonstrative, if you don't wanna push information out there, you still can connect with other people's information.
Yes. Yes. As profound a [00:11:00] presence on social media, if not more so. Quietly commenting on George Orwell and Andy Warhol. We're right. We are living in an age where everyone tells literally everything about themselves. Case in point. So if you have prospects that you're trying to develop relationships with, and I hear, oh, I'll go around the golf course and spend four hours with four people and make a real rural impact, no, you don't.
If you connect with, oh, I see you took your kids to Barbados, or I see that you loved to knit, or whatever it is you, you start to have those commonalities. That then people will remember you and wanna hire you for work. So I think the point of that is that where you do it, it doesn't matter how you do it should be how it works for you.
But the intention of learning someone's humanity is where you have your biggest impact if you're trying to grow your business. And I, I wanna, I wanna compliment you all on what you have built. Has it been a year, year and a half? Two. How long has it been?
Jennifer Ramsey: Two and a half. Two and a half.
Roy Sexton: Um. But right out the gate, [00:12:00] the message and the way you positioned yourselves as service providers was from that sense of common humanity in a very giving, loving way.
From the playlist I was mentioning to you, Megan, the L-G-B-T-Q, uh, stories you've been sharing. I mean, you're not afraid to give the microphone to somebody else. And to use that moment as a, as a, as a, ate the entire community to tell some hard truths. I also appreciate, Megan, you are not shy about saying, this is what I hated Yeah.
About my prior life.
Megan Senese: Yeah. And this is
Roy Sexton: What I'm trying to change for everyone because on both sides of that conversation, I have come to realize in nearly 15 years of working in legal, the person who just like those kids who used to beat me up on the way home from school, and turns out their parents were getting divorced.
There's something else going on there. We often are the recipients of some challenges. Behavior. But if we can get behind that, Kelly McKinnon always says, what's the question behind the question?
Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah,
Roy Sexton: [00:13:00] we can do that with humanity, we can do that with grace, we can do that with empathy.
Jennifer Ramsey: Mm-hmm. Do
Roy Sexton: that with honesty and candor.
Uh, we can make a big difference. And I think what you've done with your brand and the way you've connected with people is pretty remarkable. So put those to you. Thank you.
Megan Senese: Yeah, I appreciate that. This is where I also do what, what did you say? You stomp on all the compliments, like because, but thank you.
I'll, I'll, I will accept them. And I, I had this, had a conversation earlier this morning with another legal marketer where it's, it's, uh, like nobody cares about us legal marketers. No one cares about our mental health. It's only the lawyers and. I would have subscribed to that when I was still in house because I wasn't having those conversations with the lawyers.
And now that I'm not as associated with any firm, I have way more information that, that they are also like, feels the same way. No one cares about us lawyers. They only care about other people. Right.
Roy Sexton: The human condition, we all feel like nobody cares.
Megan Senese: Nobody cares.
Roy Sexton: My mom was plagued by this. She always wanted other people to know something about something and it would, you'd [00:14:00] fixate on that.
And it's like, if you want someone to focus on your own mental health and wellness, start with yourself. Yourself. Right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, there, there's a song, uh, it's called A Quiet Thing. And I've done this a few times and I, it's, uh, I, I won't go through the whole thing, but it's, uh. When it all comes true, just the way you planned.
It's funny that the bells don't ring. It's a quiet thing. It's like you, you, you, if you're so reliant on someone else saving you, it's never gonna happen. Yeah. And we saw this spring with some of the things everyone's like, who's gonna stand up to this and do that? And I'll rally, I'm like. Do it yourself.
Yeah. Don't worry for the group to bring you along. If you need to stand up and say something, do it. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, and I, I, I interrupted your flow, Megan. I don't know if that's
Megan Senese: No, that's,
Roy Sexton: You see this from two sides. When you were inside, you felt that, but now you see it differently.
Megan Senese: Yeah. I, I see. I felt very much, and I think Jen, you and I had a [00:15:00] pretty different experiences.
I worked in a couple of firms and I felt very much like them, the lawyers versus us, the like lowly support staff. And I carried that attitude around a lot and it, and I was hard and it wasn't until. Leaving that I have softened. Right. There's definitely things that I've done. I was not as soft and compassionate as I could have been.
I don't think I had space for that in, in a lot of ways. There was some protectiveness that had to happen in order to survive in certain environments. And so I think now it's easier to get to know people in the same way that you are talking about, you know, I, I know that you did Invisalign, I did Invisalign, and I wanna talk to you about Jen.
When when I have gone, you just sell this
Roy Sexton: podcast to Invisalign.
Megan Senese: Invisalign. We want you to sponsor us for feeling good for your lawyers. Yeah. But it does make it easier for people to approach you or [00:16:00] me, right. Uh, on certain things, even if it's heavy shit. Right. People have come and said like, I appreciated what you wrote, and.
And it makes, there's that, that piece of connection.
Roy Sexton: And I think it is the human condition to go through pelzer. Like nobody cares about this thing that I care so deeply about. Mm-hmm. But it's because everyone's walking around feeling that way. They can't, they don't have the energy or the bandwidth to think outside of the pain they are carrying around.
And I, I, I get it. And I have felt, I have absolutely felt that way in law firms. But I also realized coming out of my last engagement, and I loved it, loved what I was doing at my prior firm, but I know I entered that with a lot of insecurity and wrapping too much of my identity and self-worth in my job. I have not made that same mistake here.
I'm keeping enough distance and I'm not relying on that validation to come from within these walls. I'm here to do a job and what I think about is we as marketers, I think partly because of the [00:17:00] way we've ended up in these roles, we didn't set out to be illegal marketers. We're always feeling, no one
Megan Senese: ever does.
Really no
Roy Sexton: one appreciates what we do. They do, but they don't. What I find in legal marketers is they bemoan their existence, but then turn around and do the same thing with other people. Yeah. When I was in the international board, no offense, some of my fellow board members and volunteers treated our SmithBucklin association staff the way they themselves complained about being treated in their firms.
I would see, we'd have a board meeting and the staff would leave and people would go, why are they sitting with us? Why are they eating our sandwiches? Because they're human beings and they're working for, and this same person would go on a panel and go, well, when I have to deal with difficult personalities at work.
And I'm like, do you not see the perspective? So, you know, it's like the person I got a donut from downstairs probably. I was very nice and appreciative, but probably had 18 people before me that don't, don't want to do. We acknowledge everybody in our lives that does something for us all the time, in the way we think they should be acknowledged.
[00:18:00] No, we should. But we should realize that most people don't. So don't personalize it to the point that it really, it becomes a, an anchor on your soul. And I can say this now 'cause I'm on the other side of it. I have been there, I have, we, there was one day at my prior firm and it was, I had four people quit in a day.
And I would just start, I, and I felt just bereft. And we had this lesbian doula named Julie who painted in our house. It was like a Murphy Brown thing. And she comes around the corner and she's like, are you okay? And I'm sobbing hysterically. I think four people quit. I can't do this. And then I called my boss who was Irish and she hated when I imitated her, but I will.
I go, isn't everybody just quitting? She goes, Roy, are you upset? 'cause they, and I said, they don't like me. I'm not a good leader. She goes, are you upset because of that or are you upset because you don't know all the work's gonna go?
Megan Senese: What's the real question?
Roy Sexton: And then she goes, you know, we'll be fine. We'll be fine, we'll get better.
More talents will come in. And she was right. And then at the end she goes, have you ever heard of this thing called EAP? She was [00:19:00] right. And I ended up having two therapists going at the same time just 'cause I needed outside perspective. Uh, and I knew then I have let too much of my own identity, my own anxiety.
My own self-worth was wrapped up in one position and took me about six years to climb outta that.
Megan Senese: So let's talk about that for a minute. 'cause I think so, well, for so long, for me, all I wanted to do was become A CMO. And then I had this moment where I was like, fuck that. I don't wanna be a CMO anymore. But there are plenty of people who wanna be a CMO and it's a big accomplishment to get to become a CMO.
And there's pressure, right? You, I, I always feel like it's like, oh, every couple years they're like, get out CMO. You didn't do what we wanted you to do. So how, how were you able, how are you going to, what tools or tactics or mentality or framework or whatever container will you, are you going to use this time to define success for you?
A CMO,
Roy Sexton: And I could be [00:20:00] wrong about this, it will check back on me in a couple years, okay? I feel like what I've learned, whether you're CMO, director of Marketing, marketing coordinator, take what you've learned from other places and then just let it be in your head. Don't come in with a preconceived notion of how you are going to change everything in line with your desires, ideas.
Remember, and this is gonna sound. Cynical or old Manish of me, you are there for hire. It is not your house. That's liberating. It's okay. It's not your house. You don't own this place. If you went to work for Nike, you probably wouldn't have this same tension of, but we get this weird, like, I will fix everything.
I will make it better. You're gonna lose. Remember, they, they, they hired you for a reason. I feel comfortable about that. They don't speak your language. They're not trying to antagonize or terrorize you [00:21:00] on the balance. They're happy, unhappy with what they had before. They want more, they want change, but they don't know it.
And they, it's like hiring. I hired a personal trainer once and I never did anything they said and wondered why I didn't have a ab you know, it's just, so, just slow your role. Do the easy stuff. Don't screw that up. 'cause you never get to the hard stuff. So jump on the things that have some immediate attention.
Don't blow up your entire team. They have history, you don't have. Figure out what they want, what they want in their career? Figure out how you can structure the team to give them those opportunities to grow. Open them every, and it could be my unique experience. Every place I've gone, I've gone in after someone that was.
A bit rigid about the way everything should be done. And the problem with that is it's usually never done with the level of perfection that the rigidity might indicate. [00:22:00] And when you give it a month or two and you ask everybody, what's the process for this? And you hear five different answers, you're like, okay, we didn't have a process.
I feel like in law firms and everybody wants everything codified. They want processes, documents, they want it all documented. It doesn't work. We were laughing about the people who pop. You have to have a certain. Fluidity with what you want. You have to have an end game where you want them to go. And to me that's autonomy to me, that's people that are thinking for themselves and doing interesting work and I don't have a predisposition for what the marketing mix will be.
But during my early days here, I noticed we probably could do more around media relations and a couple things that would be immediate hits and feel like. There's energy, there's activity happening, and then you can start to dive deeper into what is the client persona we're going for? How are we mapping that?
How are we targeting that? But don't try to do it all at once. I think the reason people bounce out in two years, everyone blames the law firm for that. Yes. I think the CMO is, is. Prone to that as possible. I think some of 'em do it on purpose. [00:23:00] They're like, I've been here for two years now. I've got another paycheck.
Wanna get, and you see some come in, they blow everything up, they bring in a bunch of tech. Two years later they go and they do it again, and they do it again, and they do it again. That's their routine. I like to go in and assess what is the current situation and how can I leave it better than I found it.
And the best compliment I got from my first firm, and it was interesting, they gave me two pay cuts. They told me that next year I might not have a job. And so when I went to find another job, they said, how can you leave us? And they were crying. And I'm like, what? Two pay cuts. So again, that's, that's what we're, that's the.
It is. It is what it is. But they said as I was leaving, they said, you have a really unique way of making yourself invaluable. And so for me, it's about becoming someone people can trust and talk to and confide in. And if anything, and it's not being a sycophant, I try to lift the people up around me.
Everybody's insecure. Right. It was wonderful. I don't think you posted it, but someone posted something about it was Oprah talking about Beyonce, and she said Beyonce just [00:24:00] blew the roof off of some performance. And she came off stage and said to Oprah, was that okay?
Megan Senese: Right. This is Beyonce. Right.
Roy Sexton: And Oprah said, we all, everybody does that.
You do a thing and you come off, say you go. Was that okay? Yeah. So for us to put people on a pedestal and not realize they, the CEO, the practice leader, the person who just won the huge. Uh, case they're also still going. Was that okay? So I try to be the person to go, yeah, it was, it was great. What else can I do?
How can I, so that's what I do when I go into an organization, and yes, I don't let it all just be surface. Then what are the substantive things we can do underneath that? And what is this firm need or not need?
Jennifer Ramsey: What is your most favorite? Part of legal marketing, like what is your most favorite thing to do?
Roy Sexton: Uh, developing the people that work with me. And then when the attorneys, you have them feel that moment of confidence and sense. Because they come at [00:25:00] hard and they feel like they know who they are and they're completely, and it, it's, it comes from a, a, a lack of security. And they're in a few, in an area that's uncomfortable to 'em.
So they're like, I want my picture on the side of a bus. I want everybody to, and you're like, I love you. Here's what we can do. Right. I hear what you want. And it's also interesting to me, attorneys always want to be seen and recognized. But not too much. They don't wanna be made fun of at the Bar Association event, but they want everybody to know their name.
So you have to find that, that special place in the middle and when you see them running. Uh, and an attorney at my prior firm that started a podcast right at the beginning of the pandemic, and she had a mindset, she had a vision and she was, but she was one of the few I attorney podcasts. It's all by the topic.
They wanted to do podcasts and then they wanna record two episodes and never do it again. I'm like, why are we doing this? Yes. That's why. But she was serious. Why did I know? And she was smart, and she was like, who has a following? Who am I bringing on as a guest? Who do I wanna develop a relationship with? Very smart about it.
And she was recording an episode like every week to the point the team was like, we can't keep up with those lists. I'm like, [00:26:00] just keep up with it. It's great. We've got content. Let's just roll with it. Work with the willing, uh, but is it fair for doing it for her? Should we do it for all? She's the one stepping up to the plate.
Lean into it, the others will come along. I hate that. I hate that expression. If we do it for one, we have to do it for all. It's one of my biggest pet peeves. I do not believe that ever
Jennifer Ramsey: a hundred percent agree with you.
Roy Sexton: I digress. A year later, she comes to me and she goes, Roy, I'm too busy to keep doing this podcast.
I go, that's fine. Stop. Or you know what? Just use some of the old episodes, rerun 'em, recycle. 'cause attorneys are like that. I have to do something new every time. I'm like, oh, these are in cycles. And her practice law is very much in cycles. I said, if this issue comes up again, let's repost it and just say, Hey, little written pieces, here's a couple new things you might wanna be aware of.
So those moments where you feel like, okay, that person landed on a tactic that works for them and they feel confident and their business is growing. Great. That's good.
Jennifer Ramsey: Okay. I have another question for you. You said earlier, you know, I think a lot of us legal marketers are [00:27:00] very um, type A personalities. We do tend to wrap up a lot of our identity.
What do you mean? I'm twitching? We do tend to wrap up a lot of our identity and our job and what the lawyers think of us and all of that. And you said something really important. Earlier, and I'd like for you to share, you said you've been able to put some distance between how you used to, um, wrap up your identity and, and carry those insecurities to know where you currently are.
You're not doing that anymore, and I would just like to hear like, how did you put that distance in? What have you done? To do that, that might be helpful for some of our legal marketers who are like, oh my God, this is, you know, they just, they, they go home and they feel bad. Right? They feel bad.
They feel like they, maybe they failed or they let someone down. Or on Sunday their stomach starts to hurt because they have to go back to the law firm. Like, what, what advice would you give? Because I, I don't know, I just, listening to your story, it's a beautiful evolution of. [00:28:00] You know, where you've, where you were, where you've been, and how you have arrived here with this beautiful confidence and showing that there can be longevity and a real career path in legal marketing.
You just have to get over yourself a little bit to be able to do it. So how did you do it?
Roy Sexton: And I, some of it's gonna be unique to my current lived experience, so it might be hard to extrapolate. I do think, and I've had these moments as I'm 52 and I look back on my life and I look at pictures of myself when I was like 18 or 19 when I felt skinny and gawky. I didn't look like a football player, so I must not be very attractive.
And I look at pictures of myself, I'm like, I was really pretty, I was cute, and I, those kind of moments, and you have them at a certain age. So I don't know how to say that to someone in their twenties or thirties, but I wish I could plunk that back into their heads and go, you're perfect as you are right now.
You really are. You won't know it until time has passed. And so I thought at some point, I don't want to get 10 years from the moment I'm in now and look back on that and [00:29:00] go, why was I torturing myself about all these And this happened kind of post, A lot of things have happened in my life that someone on paper go, you should feel like you're on top of the world.
You've been the LMA President, you get to be CMO. You are on all these podcasts. Everybody likes you. But I had a monumental panic attack the last day of the LMA conference when I was dancing around with drag queens, because I'd had one regional president who was being a complete, you know what, you can, you can curse here.
Yeah. And she occupied all of my brain that whole time. Now I was on stage 'cause of my theater training. I can get up and do the thing, but this person who was just. Needling, purposefully needling. All of us, day after day after day, were taking up all of my mental space. So, which should have been kind of a wonderful magical time by Sunday, and I haven't really explained it as directly as I am now.
Usually I'm like, oh, I was so stressed and I was thinking about my mom, but it was that and this feeling of I'm here to do this thing and I know it's gonna be great, but I've got this [00:30:00] micromanaging docent that has no business in my life. Driving me crazy. And so I couldn't sleep. Voices in my head all night long, weren't eating.
So I get to the last of it, we're done. And I wake up and I'm like, I'm, and I was 40 pounds heavier and I'm like, I'm having a heart attack. And I went downstairs and Holly, who's so sweet, and Megan McKey, and they put their arms around me and they said, you're not having a heart attack. Did you eat? I said, I had a banana.
What have you had to drink? Four Pepsi zeroes. Okay. Have you been sleeping? No. You're having a panic attack. And I realized I did that to myself at one of the highest points in my life that everyone else is like, that was so great. Thanks for doing that. And I'm letting some dumb thing ruin it. And I went through the rest of the year outta president.
I did the best I could, but the whole time I was just holding my breath, like who's gonna act like a jerk about something and stir something up and get online and that? And I got to the back end of that and I'm like. Why couldn't I have enjoyed that more? And then the next year I'd done all this stuff very visibly, and [00:31:00] I'm starting to get feedback from my firm.
You're out there too much. There's too much of you in the world. And I was letting that eat me alive. And I was like, you should be proud of me. Why are you proud of this? Why don't they love me for who I am? And all I've done, don't they seem familiar to everybody? And um, I'm doing, I'm doing, I'm doing, I wanna be the best little boy.
I want everybody to love me. Ah. And I thought, I don't, I have got to change the environment. And I did say then that feedback was given. I'm 52 years old, finally as a gay man, I feel like I've got a voice and I feel like it's a good thing. I don't appreciate this, but you can imagine how that went. So I changed the environment.
I wrote, I went for the thing that I felt I deserved the validation. And then in getting it, I have made a conscious decision not to let my self-esteem be put in the hands of other people again, and I think this is why a lot of gay men suffer from this. I think a lot of people were living on the margins.
They're like, if I do everything so well, they're gonna love me and they're never gonna reject [00:32:00] me. People are people, they're gonna do stuff to you. And, and the other thing that helped is I'm too busy to worry about all of those things. And I don't mean I'm busy with work. I mean, I'm busy with my life, so I bought a new home.
We're enjoying decorating it. We're taking motorcycle lessons, we're doing stuff together. And I, I think that's the other thing, if you don't have something in your life that pulls you outside of work. Find something that gives you another purpose and definition. If there's anything else, get a hobby and not just a hobby that you do while you're checking your email, but something to audition for a play that takes you six evenings in a row and you are busy.
If you have children, give yourself help. Rescue dogs, I don't care what it is, but something that refills your wealth. 'cause a job is a job, a career is wonderful. It gives us a sense of purpose. It also gives us a funding stream to do the stuff that means. And when you get that flipped around and your job is driving everything about your life.
You can't blame them. [00:33:00] You did that.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. I love what you just said. I have to tell you, um, when I was in the middle of my career at Pillsbury. So I was there for almost 20 years. And um, I was, there were times where I'm like, oh, I have to do something else. I can't stand this and all that. And I remember we had a little, we had a rogue group of LMA in San Diego because the.
The chapter way back then was not, I mean, it just wasn't that strong. It was split between OC and San Diego, as you know. So it was hard. A lot of stuff happened in oc. So we had this little rogue group and the um, executive director of the Association of Corporate Council, John Hellings, love him. He would take us out sailing.
And just for fun, like a little, and, and I remember I was like, oh, what am I gonna do? And he's like, you need to get a hobby. That's exactly what he said to me, what you just said. And I'm like, I'm like. Oh my God. You're right.
Roy Sexton: And this is gonna sound antithetical 'cause I was the LMA president. Your hobby can't be [00:34:00] LMA.
Jennifer Ramsey: Right, right, right.
Roy Sexton: Because I've seen that happen too. People are kind of miserable in their day job and then they just fixate on LMA.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah.
Roy Sexton: And that becomes, and it's, it's not, it's too, it's not differentiated enough. You have. And you're not gonna be any good. The irony of it is you're not gonna be any good at your day job if all you do is your day job in LMA.
If you do other things, that's where your creative spark is gonna come in. That's where your noise is gonna come in, and that's where you're gonna have enough healthy perspective that when someone is acting like a fool, you can cure it and walk away from it and not make it part of your identity.
Jennifer Ramsey: It's such good, it's, it really is the most tangible, excellent piece of advice that just echoing what you said, like go get, get, change your scenery, change your situation.
That's my little mantra I have. And you know, go find something else to do that fills up your cup.
Megan Senese: Yeah. Brings you joy and spaciousness. You talk about, we talk about that a lot. So we are getting to the [00:35:00] end of our, of our time. Although I would love to continue. No. So I was really proud of this question and it's really heavy hitting.
It's if your career had a theme song,
I love this, what would it be and why?
Roy Sexton: In the car there was, there's two.
Megan Senese: Okay. And I,
Roy Sexton: I'm a gay man of the nineties, so one's Madonna and one's Janet Jackson. So the first is. Don't tell me to stop, tell the rain not to drop. Tell the wind not to blow. I dunno. It doesn't, so do you know it, Jen? It's Don't Tell Me by Madonna where she says Yes.
Don't tell me, don't tell me don't. And, and the other one that's good for this human nature where she's, I'm not sure. Don't hang on me. Uh, but so yeah. I love Misa Madonna, but yeah, don't tell me. I love it. I love it. It's gotta be, I'm, I'm gay, so it's gotta be a very specific remix. It's the vision Laura Ma remix.
Oh, don't tell me there's that. And then the other one that's kind of the darker like, mm part, and then the happy part is the [00:36:00] Janet Jackson's. All right. Uh, you're all right with me. I love that song. I just, you know, friends come and friends may go, your friends really know their true self. You have shown you all right with
Jennifer Ramsey: me.
Um, so, okay, I got, I have a follow up question. So what, what is your go-to karaoke song? Hmm. Oh, well,
Roy Sexton: Okay. Do you have a minute? So you, it's, it's situationally determined. Okay. So if you're in a gay crowd, you can do some really weird stuff. So I sometimes would like to start with, uh, Barbara Streisand. Don't Rain on my parade.
Mm-hmm. Solid. Uh, and I'm telling you, I'm not going from Dreamgirls.
Megan Senese: Yes. Oh, uh,
Roy Sexton: followed up by then. Uh, something like I'll do like young Mc bust a move or, uh, by Luke Bryan, just to have everyone go, what is happening up there. Sure. And if I've demonstrated with two songs that I know what I'm doing, then I then the third one.
And if there you can I try something I've never tried before. Because the problem with karaoke is people sing a [00:37:00] song they've never sung. You can sing it in the car, but karaoke is different. And you get up there and there's people and the accompaniment's a little odd. You might not be able to hear it completely and you're singing for the first time and you think I tried that with Fancy Reba McIntyre's Fancy.
I'll never do that again because I can do that in the car with her help. But to see it all, it's just like, it's a lot of. So, um, so what, you saw the clip on LinkedIn? I tried to find gravity for the first time, but I'm like, okay, I've done it, and I think that night I made Mac the knife. 'cause now that's become kind of a thing because I knew I could, both of those are like a freight train.
I can get through those and let me try to find gravity in case it goes south. And then one, when you get through one and it's like it works and you go, okay, that goes through the repertoire. Because I've done some before. I did try Madonna's music once and I realized there's nothing. And the worst is when there's like a long instrumental pause and you're like, what do I do with myself?
So these are some of my go-tos. I really wanna try Pony Club. I've not done that.
Megan Senese: Oh, I love singing Pink Pony Club. In the [00:38:00] car.
Roy Sexton: In the car? Yeah. In the car, yep. What are you
Jennifer Ramsey: karaoke, Jennifer? I love it. My number one go-to is Gloria Gainor. I will survive.
Megan Senese: That'll be how we close. If you're going to do karaoke, make it a good one.
I love it. Well, Jen, we might have to do a song. You know, we might have not, not now, but we might have to. You love, I know you love to sing on the podcast. I haven't. I don't think you've ever heard me sing, but I can sing. Jen, I don't know if you know this, you should have a, like,
Roy Sexton: like Buffy had that one episode that was sung through.
You should have a. I
Megan Senese: dunno. We'll have to see. I don't get embarrassed about it a lot. I mean, I, when I was, well, this is like
Jennifer Ramsey: sing a little tune Megan Sing one. I'm, I'm, I'm not doing that.
Megan Senese: No, but I, what I was going to say, islands in the street is, um, that is when I was, was in eighth grade, they, we had a, like a, the group was called the Quarter tone and we wore pink.
Yes. And we wore pink shirts and black leggings, which was 80 style, but now it's back. 'cause I'm really young. You guys like shut. [00:39:00] I know, but I'm not that young. I'm not that young when
Roy Sexton: I'm 52, so cat's outta bag. But
Megan Senese: I used to get solos when I was in middle school, so you know.
Roy Sexton: Wow. I did not know this about you.
Megan Senese: Yeah.
Roy Sexton: Maybe an idea. You should now. Hence forth. Every episode, one of you ends it with a song like Kelly Clarkson.
Megan Senese: Yes. I can't sing like Kelly Clarkson, but. I love it. I love it.
Roy Sexton: So, oh,
Megan Senese: This was so fun. This, this is when we, we will, this is so fun. We will wrap up. It's the best part of our jobs. It is.
Roy Sexton: Whoever ever lasted to the end listening to this, you get a medal.
Yeah,
Megan Senese: I know. We may have to give a prize away. We'll have to see. We'll have to. I am trying to think of it from a marketing perspective, like what, how can I get people to listen longer? How can I get people to leave reviews? I might, I don't know. We'll have to see. I'm coming up with random things. Okay. I'm gonna
Roy Sexton: Say, I'm gonna say Royalism.
Who cares? Are you enjoying doing it?
Megan Senese: We love this part of our, of our, of our, of our job. As
Roy Sexton: As long as you're enjoying it, the audience will come. They will stick around. I appreciate that, that's the stinking thinking that [00:40:00] I, I was talking about. Love that. And I know we need to, and we need to. I'm not dismissing, we need to measure, we need to be analytical.
We need to see if this is still effective? But we also need to trust our guts. And if you are enjoying doing it and it's giving you a moment to connect with the value in this, quite frankly, is not who's listening to it. It's the fact that you are bringing people on who feel. Appreciated.
Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah.
Roy Sexton: Moment. And they're gonna remember they're gonna pay it forward.
That's what you're investing in. So all six of you are listening.
Megan Senese: Yes, pretty much. Um, we appreciate that. No, I want more listeners. I want more listeners. Don't say six. Don't manifest that, not right. No. Um, we, no, we, we, we really appreciate it and this is every episode when we get to the end where Jen will take us out with her, with her joy and her hobby.
Jennifer Ramsey: So I, I did find a hobby way back when, actually my husband's like, you need to, I really think you should be a yoga. You should go through yoga teacher training, which was an amazing experience. And so I, uh, became a [00:41:00] certified yoga teacher and we like to close. Our podcast with a little inspiration of Stay human, stay inspired, and nama stay until we meet again.
Thank you. Thank
Roy Sexton: you,
Jennifer Ramsey: Thank you. Thank you. You're a delight.
Megan Senese: That's it for today. Join us next time on So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. If you're looking for more information about how to grow your business, visit us at www.stage.guide. Sharing is caring. Send this podcast link to someone you love.