040 | Aligning Team's KPIs and Fact-based Storytelling | Part 2/2 with Julian Davies, Founder of Ostara Vermouth (London, UK)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 040, I continued the conversation with Julian Davies from Episode 039. Feel free to listen to that, as well. He started as a Sales guy for Stella Artois in the UK, then moved to SABMiller where he wrote the brand-building strategy, before taking a Senior Marketing role at Bombay Sapphire. He now consults start-ups and is the Founder of Ostara English vermouth. I hope you enjoy our chat.

Time Stamps

00:00 Introduction

00:15 The Importance of Bartenders

04:27 The Social Entourage

07:37 The Limits of Misaligned KPIs

16:30 Developing Healthy KPI Habits

20:00 A Certain Occasion For A Certain Person

23:53 Liquid vs Story for Brand Building

31:22 Story Has a Purpose

34:08 What's Your Angle?

37:39 Wrap Up

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Julian Davies

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Julian Davies

Founder | Ostara Vermouth | Managing Director | Cannaray

What is MAFFEO DRINKS Leadership Insights?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafia in
episode 14.

I continue the conversation with
Julian Davies from episode 39.

Feel free to listen to that as
well.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
I think you and I probably have

a natural sort of direction
towards these smaller

interesting founder LED spirits
or beer companies because

they're more likely to play that
the game that I've just alluded

to or they become massive very
quickly.

And we can all think of
examples, you know a pre batch

cocktail brand for example,
which has gone straight into

Waitrose and it's huge.
But then it's kind of like,

well, then what?
You come straight to the bottom

of the food chain and then as
you go and try and take that to

the king and go look at this
cool thing that I've got that

you get nowhere very quickly,
right?

I wanted to say even earlier
like that.

The tricky thing is that you
need to be able to convince the

kings and Queens, but you should
not alienate the kings and

Queens and bishops about
drinking your brand, because

that is the thing.
There's nothing wrong with

having everyone in the Kingdom
drinking your brand as long as

the aristocracy still wants to
drink it.

Yeah, it's feel very classist,
but brand building is classist.

I mean, let's let's face it.
No, it is.

It is.
This is why I wanted to get into

marketing in the 1st place,
right?

I can remember even as a kid,
I'm a bit of a geek, believe it

or not.
But I was always fascinated by

this idea of what makes things
cool and how trends work.

And you can see it with kids
now, right?

Stuff that becomes cool with
kids.

Like it's not been an advert,
it's not been kind of really

anything.
It's just them talking and like

something magic happens to make
something cool.

And that's what I really love to
geek out on, like from a sort of

anthropological, or at least
social perspective, like what

makes things cool and what?
In my opinion, in a you know,

this is massive
oversimplification.

But what makes things cool is
people talking about it, right?

In every societal ecosystem,
there are people whose opinions

are, for whatever reason,
considered valuable or more

valuable than others.
Let's say that's a fundamental

human truth which you'll we will
not escape from, right?

You're cooler than me.
So your opinion on what's

interesting is more valid than
mine for 99% of people, right.

And so then you get into this
really interesting discussion

and this is what we you and I
used to talk about years and

years ago.
It's like, well, how do you

identify those people and how do
you engage with those people in

such a way that they start to
think that what you have is

interesting and cool and
furthermore than willing to talk

about it, right.
And then in our context, in the

bar in, you know, the the bar
world, the drinks world,

obviously it's bartenders,
right?

The bartenders or the
interesting kind of cocktail

mixologists and all of those
kind of guys, They're the

equivalent of the fastest runner
in the school playground or the

captain of the football team or
that kind of thing.

Because we are hierarchical
people.

We look to people who are cool
and interesting and we value

their opinions.
In the world of drinks, it's

bartenders because they're the
guys behind the stick, making

the drinks, making the magic
happen, making amazing

cocktails.
They're always kind of a bit

cool.
They're always interesting

people.
I love bartenders.

So if you can get them talking
about your brand and your

products in an interesting and
engaging way, guess what?

6070% of people walk into a bar
not being sure what they're

going to drink, right?
So they go, they ask the

bartender, so you have to win
with that person, right?

And then the bartender's saying,
oh, actually try this amazing

new English vermouth called
Ostara.

That's my second part of the
conversation, and that's how it

works, right?
Not only is it a more

interesting, more sexy way of
going about doing business, I'd

argue that it's a more logical
way of going about doing

business in terms of building
kind of a long lasting

interesting trend.
And I'd also argue that

independent of your budget,
whether you're spending

£1,000,000 or you're spending
£50,000, the more efficient

marketing spend is going to be
if you can spend time with those

people and have them be a
mouthpiece of of your brand

story and all those kind of
things.

So take the time to talk to 20
bartenders and have those 20

bartenders talk to 200 people
that come into their bar that

evening in a way that you
couldn't do.

Even if you have the best social
media and the most expensive SEO

and the most expensive
performance marketing crap going

on, there are still some
fundamental truths about how

brands are built and then what
makes things cool.

It's very interesting.
I mean, I'm right.

I'm writing notes now When when
he when you're talking because.

It's like old times.
Just like being on the old in

the in the old days because I
want to bring back and again

like die deep diving into the
into some of these aspects.

No.
Because for example we discussed

earlier being short on money
you've got your own brand and

then these expenses that you're
doing in a bar, it's actually

your money.
You know you don't have an

accounting department to say, oh
can you approve this expense.

No.
You are approving it yourself

because it's from your wallet.
No.

But that is also the ultimate
thing that a lot of people tell

me I haven't got the money.
I haven't got the money.

And then they buy, you know, a a
boot at bar convent or they run

a stupid event because some
agency told them that they need

to get in the influencers and
blah, blah, blah.

But the ultimate thing is, is to
spend money.

If you've got 10 bucks, spend 10
bucks on a drink in a bar where

you think your brand is going to
be relevant.

That's the ultimate theme.
That's the ultimate marketing

investment, no?
And within those people that you

rightfully described, you know,
the bartenders and the bar

community, it's not only about
them recommending the brand to

their customers, but it's also
like their social entourage

because they also have cousins
that are not bartenders.

They've also got friends and
family that has nothing to do

with the drinks industry, but
they are, they are looked up to

those people.
They're going to have a a

Christmas lunch.
They're going to have a birthday

parties with parents or
schoolmates of their kids, you

know.
And so ultimately it's about

really cracking that ecosystem
of people that are influential.

I'm invited to some friend's
place that, you know, for

lunches and dinners and stuff.
I'm usually obviously the the

one who's bringing the drinks
because they look at to me as

the drinks expert because
they're not from the industry.

That's how you widen the
spectrum of the bishops that you

were talking about before,
because you go to regular people

that maybe not go to bars, but
maybe they're fed up of having

an upper spritz or they're fed
up of having a Prosecco.

The brief I got for a Saturday
lunch that I'm going bring us

some Prosecco and some sparkling
wine and some other stuff that

you want to bring to.
They didn't mention Jane.

They didn't mention very more
than in brand mention Mari

because they default to a
mainstream kind of we know

however premium the Prosecco may
be that that I'm bringing but

the mainstream kind of occasion.
So things that are everybody

like to to do, but then if I
bring in stuff that it's close

enough to a Prosecco kind of
experience, but I bring in

something else, then all of a
sudden I would say like oh wow,

this is a nice novelty.
So I'm going to a birthday party

to a friend in two weeks and I
will buy that.

You know, where can I buy that?
And that's how the conversation

starts happening.
But you need to be able to have

a social life to, to accommodate
that brand building exercise or

you whether you do it on social
media, whether you do it

physically in person and so on.
But that's how you ultimately,

you know, build these kind of
brands.

Taking my feudal system analogy
even further, I have another one

which is around the concept of
trickle down economics, right,

which is that if centralized
government decide to tax higher

income people less, they hope
that those higher income people

will have more money and that
will trickle down because

they'll spend more money,
they'll get more money.

But that's invisible and it's
very hard to see trends work in

the same way.
To my mind, what you're

describing at dinner party that
you're going to is a trend

happening potentially.
It's very hard for me to see

that happening unless unless I
know that you're doing it.

Back to the start of your
question for me, what's really

interesting is the difficulty to
have the confidence I suppose as

a as a brand owner or or or a
business owner.

It's about confidence, right?
It's about saying I think that I

understand how the trend of my
product or the trend of my thing

is going to grow.
But I know that I can't see that

happening, or at least I know
that from a KPI perspective it's

very hard to measure that.
And this is where you see, and

it breaks my heart a little bit,
this is where you see I, I would

argue wrong behaviours starting
to creep in because whilst you

can't measure the KPI of Chris
Mafia going to his dinner party

and two people leave that dinner
party going thinking, Christ,

I'm going to buy whatever that
was because it was so great, you

can't really see what's.
With that other month, by the

way.
Great, good.

What you can see is if you drop
10 grand on a booth at BCB and

you can measure the number of
people that come, you can

measure the number of emails
that you get and you can go,

well, that's brilliant.
I've got a KPI structure that

shows success for the
investment.

Therefore, my ROI on that 10
grand spend is X number of

e-mail addresses, which I assume
at some point will turn into

sales on my website.
Then you get into attribution,

which let's come to attribution
in a second.

But if you start to see like a
little sales spike, you

correlate that with the fact
that you've been at BCB because

it must be that, right?
And then you go, Oh, well, it

worked.
Well then I'm not going to spend

my 10 grand on just going to
Bath because I can't validate

whether that's working for me or
not.

And one of the conversations I
always love to try and have with

people is to just try and
disavow them of that mistake.

Because I think it is a mistake
to to say what I've just said,

right.
I think if I had 10,000 lbs, if

that was my entire budget, I
would spend the vast majority of

it on just being out in trade
all the time and to the point

that we were making before about
Paul.

That's where you get all your
insights.

That's where you can get talked
to all of your bartenders about

what's interesting.
If you're just spending the time

and getting to know these
people, you're building your own

little ecosystem.
That's your demand generation

right there in a way that
handing out a little flyer or

talking to some people at BCB or
wherever, you know, I don't want

to shit on BCB or any event like
that.

We've all been there, right?
You get your little bag and you

get given 50 different brands
worth of stuff.

I personally, I don't respond
too well to to events and

situations like that because it
just bombards my brain with all

kinds of stuff and I can never
remember who's who and what's

what and whatever.
So I I think that from that my,

my conclusion is better to be
focused and be like the sniper

who's aiming very carefully as
opposed to the guy with the

shotgun who's just going and
hoping that something happens,

right?
But we're trained almost,

especially if we don't know the
bartending world or we don't

like to sit in bars.
We're trained to validate,

strangely enough, larger spend
figures because we're usually

given by an agency or by whoever
we're giving 10 grand to.

We're given a set of KPIs that
appear logical and appear that

they must be something.
And so it's easy for us to fall

into that trap of going, well,
let me do that, because then

that's bound to happen and it's
also kind of not in my control.

And also it's hard for myself,
you know, to go into a bar.

I think you're better at this
than me, by the way.

But like to go into a bar, to
just start talking to

bartenders, to sit there, to
talk to maybe even some of the

other punters that are there.
It's hard.

You've got to do it all the
time.

It takes a lot of time.
It can make you nervous to walk

into the bar and be like, hey,
here's my bottle of stuff.

And like, people who are really
good at that are really good at

it.
I'm not amazing at it.

Finally not.
And so it can.

And and then if if you're an
investment banker or not from

the trades, I say, I feel like
subconsciously something must

kick in in your brain to go,
well, I'm not going to do that.

It's difficult.
I'll pay the 10 grand and I'll

do that and I'll, I'll, I'll do
that.

Then I'll get the report and
I'll get someone will give me

the nice document and if I keep
paying that agency 4 grand a

month retained or whatever, then
something will happen.

Yeah, the you're you're bang on
because the The thing is that

then they understand that it
takes time.

So ultimately not seeing
immediate results, but having

having it under control because
of a tracking mechanism, an

attribution mechanism, then they
feel more comfortable.

But it takes time, but it takes
time if you do the right things

because it may take time
forever, you know, and you may

run out of money.
And then it goes back to the how

long of a runway have you got?
You know, because what you were

saying is, is it's super
interesting because it's about

doing things that you know you
can track rather than doing the

right things, even though they
are non trackable just because

you want to have the security of
having it.

Yeah, but I've got a report and
I downloaded from Instagram, I

downloaded from meta business
the the stats, so I know exactly

what I got.
But ultimate, there is this,

this thing that Chris Walker,
super interesting person that I

follow and I listen to his
podcast is he calls it the

attribution mirage.
You think that something comes

from certain things but actually
doesn't.

And and I see these all the
time, you know, I've got it.

I've got the luxury of having
some tracking mechanism because

of a podcast because of the, you
know, the newsletter for

example, like how do people
subscribe to my newsletter?

And very, very often is
mafiadrinks.com.

That's the attribution that I
get.

You know, it came from there,
but it came from there because

maybe they don't remember the
name of the newsletter.

They remember my name, they
googled me.

Google brings into the my
website and my website has a

link to the newsletter.
So it doesn't mean that the the

website drove them to find the
newsletter and they wanted to

find the newsletter and they
happened to find it through my

website because it was the most
known thing for them on the web.

So you can really be misled by
this kind of things because

there could be like some
coincidences now.

So it's a very tricky one
because we get dragged into this

attribution thing and
ultimately, you know what I'm

trying to do for example with a
with a bottom up system is also

like accommodating introverts
because honestly, you know, I'm,

I'm deemed as a super extrovert,
but I'm a shy person, believe it

or not.
I mean, nobody would believe me,

but honestly, I I struggle when
I go into a bar.

I feel shy.
I don't feel, I don't hang, you

know, I don't, you know, working
with the music and the fanfare

following me.
But.

But that's why I have this more
kind of like subtle way of

selling because I don't want to
be the guy entering with the

bottle on my hand saying, hey
mate, you know, do you want to

have a, do you want to have a
drum?

Because that's I know that
ultimately people want to be

sold it more effortlessly then
on a cold call like oh hi, I'm

from here, from here, blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah.

You know that is the ultimate
thing that there is a way to do

it in the right way is just that
you need to feel comfortable to

your point earlier with the
journey and with the fact that

you are not going to be able to
track results.

So you need to find certain
signals that are close enough to

an attribution and to a tracking
system.

For example, like every week I
get a few emails or messages on

LinkedIn or on Instagram of
thank you notes from me.

You know, I've changed the way I
see things in building my brand.

We are launching in January.
I've incorporated all your

things into my business plan.
It's like of course like there's

thousands of people listening to
the podcast and and I get 2

messages.
That 2 messages are actually

people that took notes from my
podcast and took the effort of

writing me an e-mail thanking
me.

So that is a good enough
mechanism, tracking mechanism

for me to say I'm on the right
journey.

Because if every week I get two
or three, four, 5-10 people

writing to me, it means
something, even though I don't

have any money coming out of the
podcast on a 1 to 1

attributions.
I think you raise a really

important point which is the
creation of things that you can

watch or things that you can
look for which let you know that

you're on the right path, right.
And again when we first met, we

came up with this idea of
measuring your sort of brand

heat in a marketplace.
I don't if you remember all the

certain things but a number of
metrics that you could ask

people to try to and it's weird
formula that we came up with

about and trying to understand
whether you were cool or not.

But I think that's the same
thing as what you're talking

about If you've had the ability
to set yourself a couple of way

markers that you understand like
and I and I love your example

actually Chris it's like if two
people, two or three people are

writing to you saying that it's
had a big effect on them and all

the all those cool things that
you said and that's enough for

you and and you decide kind of
strategically logically whatever

you call it that's that's one of
the main or it's it's enough of

a of a metric for you to
understand that you're doing the

right thing.
That in combination with saying

OK well eight you know people in
80 different countries listen to

me or my numbers gone up or
whatever that that lets you know

that you're broadly speaking
you're doing the right thing

which lets you know that as long
as you can keep it going then

you're on the right track.
And I think it's the same with a

a bottle LED brand as well.
There's so many parallels

between what you're doing and
what one man band founders do or

people like I do.
If you can identify a number of

kind of way markers that let you
know you're on the right path

and you can have the runway
meaning that you, you know

you've got the cash to cover
your operating expenses let's

say for a period of time, then
I'd argue that that's good.

And in this climate and again
being as close as I am to sort

of the investment world right
now, which is no one's deploying

funds, everyone's sitting on
their hands especially in the

UK.
It's almost impossible to raise

if you've got a business which
is lean, which can pay us bills,

which you know has a 12 month
long rate, for example, runway I

should say.
And within that you've got a

couple of kind of interesting
KPIs where you're able to say,

well I'm in this cool bar which
has got to be a good thing and

whatever other things that you
can come up with.

I don't want to give all the
secrets away, but that's what we

could consult people on then,
you know you're doing the right

thing, right.
It's an interesting parallel

just between habits that you
have to develop just in life,

right, to eat well, to have your
vitamins, to exercise to make

sure that you're clean and all
those kind of things, right.

No one's there telling you it's
is the right thing to do, but it

is the right thing to do and you
know that it's right by its

presence.
You'd feel their absence.

If you weren't eating properly
and you weren't washing and you

weren't engaging with people,
then things would start to go

wrong very quickly in your life.
If you can start referencing a A

a correct set of behaviours, or
let's call it a, a set of

behaviours which you can
subscribe to, which you can do

habits, which you can set,
whether it's with your podcast

or with your getting dressed
every morning or with your brand

or whatever it is, then you can
sort of logically say those are

the right things to do.
I know they're the right things

to do because I would feel their
absence and I'm able to sustain

those behaviours and that way of
doing things until such time as,

you know, the business develops
and then therefore I have to

readdress those behaviours and
see what needs to change.

That's at a very high level sort
of analogous way of thinking

about things.
But I think throughout my career

and throughout my kind of
consulting or brandeled in

career, if you can have that as
a start point, then you can get

into the specifics of like
right.

OK.
Well then what does that mean

from a channel strategy or what
does that mean is from a from a

pricing and get into the kind of
the weeds of it.

But I always try and encourage
people to start with that way of

thinking.
Absolutely.

Going back to the point of the
podcast seller, listen by by

Chris Walker, Revenue vitals.
And it's very interesting

because he made me think about
my own content creation now

because vanity metrics out there
makes it easy to track views,

likes, comments, shares and so
on.

But then he actually made me
think and I and I said like

that's how I changed my thinking
on, you know, if I get 2

messages, it doesn't matter if
your views went down 50% because

they could be due to whatever
algorithm or whatever there is.

But if you see that people
relate to that content, that's

the right way and the way you
know that is the right way that

you need to be compelling and
you need to be right for a

certain type of people in in a
certain given occasion.

Going back to your point is that
you need to go to your own area

where you live, where you know
that your brand is going to be

resonating with those people.
Because otherwise, you know, if

you start exporting an English
vermouth to whatever Japan,

you're basically putting
yourself out there in a in a way

that is like, what am I going to
do there?

You know, if you haven't really
built it in England first, like

knowing where to go and where to
find those people to your

earlier points.
Depending on what your brain

stands for, it goes into certain
geographic and element, occasion

element, and the cross section
of all these things.

If ever I'm talking to other
brand owners or other people who

are looking to start their own
business, I think that's the

number one thing to crack.
It's like what's the point of

this thing?
You can get into the complicated

marketing stuff if you want to,
but like what's the point and

why does anyone care?
And like if you can crack that

and crack its story that you
should be able to explain in a

couple of sentences to anybody
in a kind of clear and logical

way, what am I doing here?
Then your identity builds up

around that and I remember you
had Stephen Grass on here a

while back, didn't you?
And he always talks about brands

being onions.
I don't know if you'd talked

talked about that on your.
Yes, he does.

I remember him saying that to me
like 10 years ago or whatever,

and it's an interesting analogy
because it's you.

But but I think.
The Onion is the is the

politically correct version of
the feudal system.

Yeah mate we have to start
again.

Perfect.
But but it's it's you've got to

I always encourage people to
think very very carefully and

very hard like the core DNA of
your brand.

What's it all about Like
whatever the category is

whatever The thing is like
what's your story and why should

anybody care.
And then you can sort of build

up your onion then your your
your your story has these

different layers and people will
engage with it on different

layers.
Some people would just want to

know that it's a vodka and it's
English and that's cool.

Some people want to want to
know, like where the wheat comes

from and are you sustainable and
why is it called Vodka X?

And you'll have to understand
that all kinds of different

people respond to all kinds of
different prompts or pushes to

engage with your brand.
And so you've got to have a

little ecosystem, like a little
beehive, if you like, of stories

that all that all fit together
and that all work together.

And you've got to nail that with
a small core of people who get

that before you can sort of
build out too far.

Otherwise, I think it's a it's a
great point.

Like if I try and slog English
vermouth in Japan right now and

I'm going, no, it's just like
the vermouth, you know?

But it's different because it's
English.

Like I don't know whether that's
a thing or not, right?

Why?
Why would that resonate with

anybody?
And so it's or it might do, but

it's going to be a hell of a lot
harder.

And so therefore, I'm creating
myself a problem and an issue

that I don't really need to have
if I can just really kind of

nail situations and I can nail
my kind of my concept and my

loyalty, if that makes sense
here, and just be patient with

it.
And now that we're diving into

the more brands brand LED
conversation, so how, how does

it work for you?
I'll always have this kind of

like Yin and Yang know, like the
brand and the liquids, the

liquid that this profile, you
know, the more technical things

on the things that you can
actually enjoy and taste and

smell and the things that
actually it's it's all the the

old brand world and the
heritage, the brand story and so

on.
Because there is always this

thing about storytelling.
You know, like that is a little

bit, you know, misinterpreted.
They feel well, you need

storytelling.
People love storytelling.

Yeah.
I mean, yeah.

We humans, humans lives like
stories.

That's fine.
But there is a bit of a fluffy

story and there's an elevated
pitch that people that people

talk about now.
So what what's your take on

that?
Like when if we bring back The

Onion example, but if you have
to pick a kind of like a

starting point, we're having the
the conversation with a

bartender with somebody who's
going to drink the bread for for

the first time and so on.
That's a really interesting one

because yes, we, we do love
stories and human history is

peppered with amazing
storytellers and amazing stories

and myths and legends and all
that kind of stuff.

I think as marketeers, let's
call ourselves marketeers for

the moment, I think.
I think it's a bit of a trap to

fall into, to be honest with
you, where we say, oh, people

definitely want to hear
storytelling about my brand

because I kind of, I partially
agree with that and I partially

don't because we love humans,
love stories, but we love

stories about, you know, Dragons
and proper stories and stuff

like that.
We're not necessarily about

brands.
People love stories.

Let them read a book, right?
They don't want to hear a story,

necessarily, about your brand,
especially if it's retrofitted

into some category opportunity
that your folks at Diageo have

spotted.
Or having said all that, I'll

just keep it simple, right?
And I think, especially these

days, consumers can spot
bullshit quicker than probably

ever before and are also more
inclined to call you on that

bullshit, which can also be more
damaging to your brand probably

than ever before.
In other words, I think if I can

answer your question by by
suggesting what I wouldn't want

people to do is come up with
some very convoluted,

complicated, fake story about
whatever that doesn't exist,

Really.
If you were to come up with some

story about a kind of, you know,
an ancient Mariner or some

community of people that used to
do this and, you know, these

amazing, rich stories that
creative agencies come up with,

but it's not real, then I think
that you're kind of wasting your

time, right?
Because there's no point in

telling that story.
If I want to hear a story like

that, I'll just go and read Moby
Dick, right?

I don't need to hear it from
your brand.

Oh, I'm.
But I'm serious.

No, it is because stories.
The story's already been written

though, right?
So I think what I would like to

try and say is if as an
independent brand owner or if

you work for Joshua or whatever,
you spot an opportunity.

It's harder for big companies,
right?

And this is where this
storytelling thing had come from

for me as a one man band.
Relatively easy and this is what

I do with my vermouth, right?
Relatively easy for me to say.

I think that Vermouth's are
really interesting category.

We used to drink lots of
vermouth in this country because

we used to ship wine over from
the continent and it would go

off.
So we'd keep we'd kind of warm

it and put spices in and all
that kind of stuff and then we

stopped drinking vermouth
because we forgot about it.

Having said that, we do have a
sort of latent history of it.

Back in the 60s, vermouth and
Campari and those kind of bitter

type LED drinks were interesting
and so and everything's cyclical

as well, right?
And so interesting bitter LED

drinks are coming back lower.
Alcohol is interesting, English

wine is interesting at the
minute.

So all of these kind of kind of
trends are converging on a story

that I can start to tell now if
I weave into that a story which

happens to be true, which is
that I grew up in the middle of

the field basically in Sussex
and learnt to swim in the local

river and I learnt to forage
before it was called all of

those things.
So I learnt about plants and

flavour and all this kind of
stuff.

And then what I've tried to do
is recreate my childhood taste,

if you like, in a bottle.
That's a real story.

It's actually quite a simple
story and that I can kind of go.

There's this interesting thing
called synesthesia, which is,

you probably know this already,
but it's like the mixture of the

of the senses.
So I have a very clear childhood

memory of a location in Sussex
in England, which is a river and

a hedge and kind of interesting
plants growing in there and what

not.
And I've tried to recreate that

memory in a liquid profile,
which I spent 18 months trying

to create or something.
And that's what a star is.

So my storytelling can work on a
number of different levels.

What I have to do is I have to
understand whether you want to

hear about history or whether
you want to hear about liquid

flavour or whether you want to
hear about my personal story.

And I've got like a layer that
can work on all of those.

I can say, well look, I'm from
the country and I wanted to

create something to celebrate
the English countryside.

That's the simple, simple
version.

I think if you're a diagio, if
you're a kind of, I don't know

why I'm picking on diagio,
sorry, diagio.

If you're a whoever, perno,
whatever, obviously it's harder

because everybody, he knows the
way the innovation works there.

You see a category opportunity,
you see somebody else making

lots of money and you go, oh,
how are we going to kill Aperol,

right.
And you look at consumer trends

and your clever insight, people
come in and you go right, we've

got to make a thing and like
this is the thing.

I think just my my steering for
whatever it's worth to those

companies would be as I said at
the start and just kind of to

reiterate, don't try and create
some bullshit story around that.

That doesn't exist.
We've all seen it, people trying

to create these personas of
people that didn't exist, that

you know, somehow embody the
brand or these weird convoluted

stories and you get weird design
stuff going on.

I just tried to not do any of
that, right?

Just make a really tasty
product, explain to people what

the product is and why it's
tasty, and have them engage with

it on that level.
And then I think, unfortunately

my analogy then falls apart
because then you don't have this

kind of onion of a kind of super
complicated story.

But I think that we as
marketers, sales people,

whatever in the business world,
think about this far more than

than real people.
Let's say what what real people

want to the point that we were
talking about before, they'll go

into a bar, that's the likely
place that they'll burst into

actually your product.
And they'll talk to a bartender

and they'll want a tasty drink.
So if the bartender goes, here's

a tasty drink, which is a bit
like our parole, but whatever,

It's a new spritz.
It's better and it's English or

it's Czech or whatever The thing
is really in.

In many senses, it doesn't
actually matter what The thing

is.
It's just got to taste really

good.
It's got to make a really good

drink.
It's got to sort of hijack A

ritual, if that makes sense.
I like products that for example

with I keep talking about the
vermouth.

But one of the reasons I like
vermouth is that it's quite easy

to get people to, you know, go
to a bartender and say look,

don't make a gin and tonic, make
a vermouth and tonic, same same

behaviour, same pour, same steps
that make the drink, but one

change.
And then I think whether it's a

bartender or whether it's a
consumer and you get you get

people to change one element of
something that permit short to

them and give them one little
bit of story around why that's a

better choice and ideally charge
them a bit more for it and all

that kind of stuff.
Then you don't need to have some

kind of made-up story about
whatever.

It's just got to taste great.
It's got to be a logical choice

and it's got to answer a kind of
unmet consumer motivation.

And I think to to your point, is
the intersection on many things

because it could be that you
know you're talking to a

bartender and he is making a
cocktail, so you want to link it

to is it sweet, is it sweeter
than is it, is it less sweet?

If you're talking about a
mescal, is it more Smokey?

Is it less Smokey if you're
talking about an Isley whiskey?

You know, like it.
It depends on the angle that you

want to talk about.
Like, then if you're talking

about, I don't know, like a pub
in the countryside, then maybe

the foraging story could be more
suitable.

If you were actually in Sussex,
then it would even even be more

sense to mention your childhood
story of you in Sussex.

You know, like it depends on
where you are and how you build

that story.
So I think the misunderstanding

is that, you know, stories and
storytelling is the way we

convey a message is not how we
bullshit people.

And that's what marketeers got
wrong, you know, it's like you

need to make it a cool story out
of anything.

But if people don't care if I'm
a bartender and I'm looking for

a an alternative to martini red,
I don't want to hear about your

childhood.
I don't care if I'm working in

the in the big chain of a
restaurant, you know, and I

don't care about sustainability.
I don't want to hear about your

foraging and your natural
ingredients because I I don't

care.
That's the least on on my list

of priority.
I want to listen to something

that I want to listen to.
So to your point, they know, for

example the the the vermouth and
Sonic story could make sense of

somebody that basically said, oh
you usually drink wine and now

you're what are what are your
fancy Now I'm, I'm not actually

looking for wine.
You know, I'm looking for

something more refreshing
because it's hot outside and

it's one of those three days or
summer that you guys get in in

in England.
And then maybe they say, oh then

if you like wine and why don't
you try a vermouth and and

tonic.
You know, so you build the

bridge on the wine lover and
then you build it with the

refreshment of a gin and tonic,
and then you skip the gin and

you re replace it with the
vermouth, you know?

But then with somebody else, it
may be a totally different way.

It could be that maybe they
don't like wine, but they like

they want to see an alternative
because they like the botanicals

of the vermouth.
Or if you like those botanicals

and you get those botanicals
from the gym, usually, why don't

you try to replicate those
botanicals from vermouth?

And then you landed the vermouth
and tonic once again, you know?

But it was two different ways
and two different kind of

consumers to get into the
ultimate end goal that was your

vermouth and tonic.
That's the more accurate onion

analogy, isn't it?
Because you know, I I can salt

to brands and I I love to.
Again, this is, this is

effectively what I consult
brands on, which is like, how

can you have different angles
into your DNA, such as you'll be

appealing to as many people as
possible and everything that

you've just said, right?
Some people want to know about

X, some people want to know
about Y and so the best brands

in my opinion have a kind of
multi layered identity if that

makes sense as opposed to and
you see it again I'm picking on

Gin UK here.
You see so many where people, I

think you know, and you made
this point before, whether it's

marketeers or founders or
whoever they are, they go for

sort of depth rather than
breadth, I suppose.

And that must feel like quite a
logical thing to do.

Or you go like, well, here's my
gin, It's named after a boat.

I love boats.
Here's a picture of me sailing.

I used to sail when I did this.
Here's like, here's another

picture of me on a boat.
And you just talk.

You end up talking about sailing
like very, very deep into that

And you're like, well, hang on,
what's the story like?

Why is this gym different other
than you and your boat?

Right.
And it exists because when

categories are cluttered as
well, people are looking for

sort of areas of opportunity and
they're looking for kind of

territories that all you know
then.

And if you looked at gin in the
UK, and I think it's probably

the worst category for this
actually, it doesn't feel like

too many sort of areas of
interest.

You know, because the kind of
your traditional ones have got

kind of tradition and distilling
and whatnot sewed up.

You've got your kind of out
there ones who do crazy stuff

with crazy botanicals.
You've got your ones with 52

botanicals or 47 or whatever it
is, and you've got all that

stuff.
So people are looking for ways

in.
And so then by definition, they

click one thing and it's a bit
like why?

It's a strange dating analogy, I
suppose.

But if you're trying to impress
someone and get yourself a

partner and you're nervous about
it, you just keep talking.

You just keep telling like great
stuff about yourself.

Well, you don't.
You're not actually listening in

as as as to whether he, she or
they are interested in you,

right?
You're just telling them more.

And so storytelling is great.
And I love, I love storytelling,

but not if someone's going to
just keep hammering me with the

same point and more detail on
the same point and it's the same

angle.
You're just like chipping away

at the same coalface, right?
You're not finding another other

angle into it.
And I think my biggest thing as

a sort of brand advisor is to
just to have different angles to

your brand, have enough empathy
so that you can understand your

target consumer or target
consumers.

Let's say that ecosystem of
people will want to hear

different messaging from you
understand how to do that with a

brand that doesn't end up being
kind of multiple personality and

just a shit show as well, right?
So how do you hold to a core of

your brand?
I have different roots in for

that.
And that's the magic, right?

If you can, if you can do that
and not forget that your

products going to taste good as
well, then you're on to a

winner, right?
And my final thought before I

carry on rambling too much is,
again, as marketeers, the very

traditional way of thinking
about marketing was to think

about your four PS, right?
And we forget about four PS

because we go after sexy stuff
like performance marketing or

influences or whatever, right?
You've got to have those four PS

kind of nailed and you've got to
make sure that fundamentally

actually your product tastes
good, right?

Product tastes good.
People can find it in the right

place, the price feels right and
that you're able to talk about

it in the right way.
And it's it's pretty simple.

That's that's a nice way to wrap
it up, I would say.

And so let's let's plug in How
can people find you and get in

touch with you and taste that if
they want to.

If they want to talk to me after
this, they're very welcome.

They should find me on LinkedIn.
I suppose it's the best way, but

our star of a muth.com is the is
the website.

I could probably still deliver a
few bottles before Christmas if

they want to.
It's delicious for Christmas.

One of the best English for most
ever, it's launched within the

last couple of years.
Again, they find you on LinkedIn

and other social media as well.
On a personal level, I'm not

amazing on my on my social.
So don't bother trying to find

me on on Instagram because I I
don't use it very effectively.

That's another discussion for
another day.

You can find me on LinkedIn.
That's the best way of doing

Davis on LinkedIn.
Yeah.

Or on Instagram they can contact
me and then I'll give, I'll give

you a contact probably that's
they give one.

Actually that would be the.
Yeah, that's there we go.

Fantastic.
On on Instagram, you can find me

via Chris.
Yeah, there we go.

That's the best answer.
My God.

Fantastic.
So that the.

Last bit's gone well, hasn't.
It that that was that was that

was great and thanks a lot for
for your time Julie was a was a

big pleasure.
Mate, it's a pleasure as always.

It's been a long while coming,
but I I really enjoyed it and

when maybe we do it again if
people like you.

Absolutely.
Will do.

Thank you, man.
Thanks.

That's all for today.
Remember that this is a twoart

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for more insights about building
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