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Church is messy podcast recorded at Autumn Ridge Church in Rochester, MN
Church Is Messy, 06-03-2026 Ep146
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Svea: good morning, Rick. We're back with Church is Messy, sitting down to record, not on the 1 Corinthians series, but on a standalone message.
Rick: I'm glad to hear you say good morning, that you're not, you know, full of vinegar this morning- ... ready to pronounce a curse on the air- ... to call down some fire from heaven, asking God to- I have been
Svea: reading a lot of curses lately.
Rick: to knock the teeth out of my mouth, to spill my coffee in my lap, anything like that.
Svea: No, no, no, no. Wouldn't dream of it.
Rick: I don't think that the term provocative is necessarily right, but certainly, ah, fascinating, engaging, outside of the ordinary. These aren't necessarily things that people read devotionally, the Psalm that you, you talked about this week.
So I'm super excited just to talk about this and engage and hopefully have a good time, and maybe add to the, uh, amount of illumination that, you gave to all of us this past weekend.
Svea: Oh, sounds good. Three, two, one, go.
Yeah, so just to be clear, if anyone didn't, uh, hear the message this last weekend, I had the opportunity to preach, and I got to choose a passage that I wanted to focus on. And I went very much outside the box with a Psalm, uh, that is known as one of the imprecatory Psalms. Mm-hmm. A, uh, a Psalm that's calling for God's divine vengeance on the enemies of His people.
Before I even say anything else- Mm-hmm ... I'm hearing in my own voice, I, uh, I'm getting over some bronchitis right now, and fought through the urge to cough all weekend, and by God's grace, I made it through three services without having a big coughing jag. But, uh, it's, uh, continuing to kick my tail a little bit here in recovery.
Rick: You s- you sound a little edgy as we're talking about a prickly Psalm. I think it's a perfect, I think it's a perfect match.
Svea: It's just working right now, huh?
Rick: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. All
Svea: right. Well, forgive me for the, uh, gravelly nature of my voice here- ... as we go through this.
Rick: So before we get into this, I wanna ask you a little bit about the backstory.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: So we, we plan our message calendar out 12 to 18 months in advance. Uh, sometimes we make some tweaks along the way. And when we needed to make a tweak to our schedule, 'cause I was gonna be out of town, I had the privilege of,, doing a wedding, uh, for a family who's close to us.
Um, and you're like, "Okay, I'll take this. It's a standalone. You can pick whatever you want." What was going on? Were you cut off in traffic? Were you and Steve fighting? Were you getting some kind of hostile emails in your inbox? What was it that inspired this sermon from you?
Svea: That's right. I just had this little bent towards revenge that needed to be expunged somehow.
No, not at all. Actually the backstory is that a couple years ago when I was taking a course- Mm-hmm ... as part of my doctorate program on preaching, each of us in that course were assigned a hard text, the kind of texts that usually- Mm-hmm ... cause pastors to lose sleep over, how do I accurately handle this kind of a text- Sure
in, in Scripture. And, uh, Psalm 58 was what I had gotten assigned in that class, and it was such a great exercise because when I first read that, I thought, "I don't even like reading this psalm." Hmm. This psalm makes me feel icky. Hmm. And it doesn't feel compatible with what Jesus calls us to, and- Sure ... and the way that we wanna think about people.
And I was very disturbed reading that psalm, and to try to think, how do I preach on something that- Hmm ... I'm not connecting with- Sure ... and even have some discomfort with. So in that process, I had to spend a lot of time reading about these kinds of psalms that are calling for- Mm-hmm ... for God's vengeance and that are also kind of filled with some dark, rather grotesque things.
And, uh, and so it was in the process of that study that I gained an appreciation- ... for, these psalms. We didn't have to write a full sermon for that class. We just kind of- Had to draw up how we would approach it- Mm-hmm ... and develop an outline, but it never left me. And over the last couple of years, I've just had in the back of my head, I would love to complete that process- Mm
of finishing this sermon and being able to present these psalms in a way that could be helpful for people. And really, what drove my decision to go with it for this weekend was in my own love for scripture, my own passion for the- Mm ... Bible. I hate the idea that there are chapters that feel like they're either less helpful or- Mm
less godly or- ... or less useful to us- Mm ... and that may cause us to wanna just kind of skip over them and- Mm-hmm . And brush by them.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: I want us to be able to know that we can love every chapter of scripture- Mm ... and see that God has incredible wisdom for including- Yeah ... in his word what he chose to include.
And so as I learned more about this type of psalm myself and gained my own appreciation for what God seems to be communicating through them, I just was excited to share that- Mm ... with other people, too.
Rick: Don't those make the best sermons?
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: People can't share what they don't have, and you're just sharing with us the things that you've been enjoying from this process for about two years now.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: And I love that.
Svea: And one of my greatest joys over the weekend was chatting with people in the lobby, and- Yeah ... boy, probably f- maybe five or six people said, "Hey, I'm so excited to go home and read psalms now. I feel like you gave me back part of the Bible that I have- Oh, wow ... been skipping over."
Rick: Wow.
And like,
Svea: oh, praise God. That's awesome.
Rick: So before we get into this and, and I ask you some more follow-up questions, just what are some handholds, some words of advice, maybe just a disposition to adopt when you read a passage that messes with you? And first of all, can we just say it's okay to read a passage and it messes with you?
Mm-hmm. That's just all right. It's okay to go, "Man, I, I don't like the way this feels." What do you recommend to folks when they read a passage like that?
Svea: Yeah. I, I would say, first of all, make sure you're reading it in its context.
Make sure you're reading it in light of the type of scripture that it is.
You know, that was a point that I did try to, to bring out in the message. So
Rick: what kind of context are you talking about? So- Because psalm is not a narrative. I mean, they're just like, it's like reading a song in a hymn book. They're just like- The psalm that you're reading might be totally disconnected from the psalm before it and after it.
Svea: Right. But like you said, psalms aren't a historical record. This isn't "This is what happened." Yeah. They're also not like the theology of the New Testament where Paul is telling us how to understand- Mm-hmm ... God, how to- Mm ... how to be the church. Mm-hmm. Um, psalms are like the diary- Mm ... of the Bible.
Psalms are the, the raw thoughts and feelings of artistically minded people- Mm ... who put their thoughts to poetry. Yeah. And just like when we're reading other forms of poetry- Mm-hmm ... we have to read it in that way- ... and recognize that this isn't necessarily a prescription for what we're supposed to be thinking or feeling, but it is a real thought or feeling- Sure
that people have.
Rick: Sure.
Svea: The other thing I like to do is to look at the scripture from if this weren't included in the Bible, what would we miss?
Rick: Hmm.
Svea: And that was really helpful to me-
Rick: Tell me- ... with these- Will you tell me more about that? Yeah. 'Cause that's an interesting question.
Svea: If, if we didn't have these kinds of dark- Yeah
grotesque, kind of venge-filled psalms included in our Bible- Wouldn't we be led to then the conclusion possibly that these were unsafe thoughts that aren't okay to express to God?
Rick: Hmm.
Svea: And I think the inclusion of them offers us this beautiful benefit of recognizing that God knows we have these kinds of thoughts and feelings.
Rick: But Sophia, I was raised- ... to pretend like the ugly thoughts aren't there.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: That's the church I went to, that's the culture that I grew up in. Was that wrong? Are you saying I should have just been more honest?
Svea: This might even take us down another, uh, section of things to talk about, but I think there is something to be said for you and I were part of a generation- Mm-hmm
and I think even the generation above us- Yeah ... did tend to avoid some of the negative thoughts and feelings. Sure. And, uh, and I was raised, I don't know if you were the same, Rick, but I was raised to even say like, "Don't ever express anger to God." God is this holy God, and expressing anger to him, or certainly what was very much off limits- Hmm
was any kind of, of frustration with God or anger at anything that you think He's doing in your life, that that was out of bounds.
Rick: Well, there's what's explicitly communicated, and then there's what's implicitly communicated. I think maybe the implicit communication is a little bit more common, um, perhaps even more, powerful, in that what you always see is what sometimes antagonistic people call happy clappy religion.
Hmm. Everybody looks right, everybody sounds right. Every time you get together everybody has it all put together except for like a business meeting, everything is fun and festive and joyful, you know? And, and everything is kind of up and to the right. It's just good, and there's never this kind of raw, this hurts, this is messy, this is difficult, and we are just laying it bare in front of each other before the Lord and trusting Him with it.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like that, what I just described, was not at all the church culture in which I grew up in. I think it's probably hard to experience. It's easier to experience more positive than it is something that is a mixture of also all the kind of the rugged and raw- Sure it is
experiences as well.
Svea: Yeah. But I, I, and I think just recognizing that different generations- Mm-hmm ... have approached that differently. Yeah. I remember my grandmother once telling me that she would never talk about a problem that she was actually facing because that wouldn't be helpful to anyone else. She would talk about problems in her life that she had mastered- Hmm
that she had conquered because that's what she viewed as something that would be helpful to other people. But to address something that was kind of a current pain in her life- Mm-hmm ... was, to use her expression, just airing your dirty laundry.
Rick: Sure.
Svea: And, uh,
Rick: and- And maybe the intent was good But there's some impact from that that's not so great because it puts pressure on everybody else that you can't be honest about what you're experiencing.
Mm-hmm. And yet the, the thrust of the New Testament is to carry one another's burdens. And how can I, how can I carry something along with you that's too heavy for you to carry by yourself if you can't be honest about it- Mm-hmm ... with me? Mm. Like imagine that you're moving across town and that you need help moving, but you're not allowed to tell anybody-
that you're moving. You can only tell people that you have moved, and yet you need people to be there with you- ... to get from point A to point B. What a dumb way to approach moving.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: And yet there is this pull, this cultural pull to live life that way.
Svea: Yeah. Well, and in that, I think we are moving towards something that is helping us be a better Jesus follower- Mm
when we are embracing a little bit more transparency. Now, I'm not saying that we wanna embrace the- Mm ... the less sanctified parts of ourselves- Yeah ... or to celebrate- Mm ... thoughts that we have that are not- Mm ... worth celebrating, but I think by being honest about them, we can, um, actually invite Jesus to meet us in those places better- Yeah
than when we're suppressing them or hiding them- Yeah ... from other people or ourselves or God.
Rick: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm gonna share an idea. Maybe it's dumb, maybe it's paradox, maybe it's a contradiction. I'll let you help me sift through it. I absolutely believe that it's impossible to be more honest with somebody else than you are with yourself.
But I'm also a bit skeptical that I can truly be honest with myself without also being honest with someone else. Like, the more honest I am with someone else, the more able I am to be honest with myself. Does that make sense?
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: Does that sound dumb?
Svea: It doesn't sound dumb. I'm just trying to chew on it in my mind and see how I've experienced that.
Rick: 'Cause I just don't know that we are designed to carry and sort through all of this stuff alone, that when I share what's going on with someone else, and the way that they respond to me, and, um, and the way that they talk, and the way that they d- ask questions and express genuine love and empathy and all of those things, and kinda help draw out more- Yeah
then it gives me the ability to get more of what's just kinda tucked down deep in the crevices of my heart out. And so, like, have you ever had a conversation, as you're talking with someone, it kinda dawns on you what- Yeah ... you think and feel?
Svea: Absolutely.
Rick: I think that's the thing that I'm fumbling through trying to communicate.
Svea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, someone else can draw out insights- Yes ... and help you see something that maybe you've not been able to access yourself. Mm-hmm. I think another aspect of this, and this is probably a big part of the beauty of the Psalms in this, is I've often found that with kind of big emotions- Mm-hmm ... when I do communicate it- Mm-hmm
to someone else, be that to God, to another person- ... um, it deflates the power of it.
Rick: Oh, yeah.
Svea: It just, it tones it way- Oh, yeah ... down.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and it's just a really helpful way of, instead of it just simmering and stewing and, and becoming more and more of, of just kind of this growing toxic feeling, being able to express it just deflates it.
Rick: Mm. It reminds me of something that I learned from people in the recovery community, the power's in the secrecy. And so saying it to someone else, and sometimes just saying it out loud I've discovered there are times when I'm wrestling with something, if I just say it out loud yeah, the power is diffused. I think that's a great way-
Svea: Yeah ...
Rick: to describe that.
Svea: So I think this, s- having these kinds of dark-
...
Svea: Violent Psalms- Yeah ... included, just models that for us, that there's nothing that is unsafe for us to be able to express to God. And, these model that for us.
Rick: So we should celebrate the honesty, not necessarily celebrate ...
Svea: The
Rick: content ... the honest feelings-
Svea: Uh-huh ...
Rick: that we have. 'Cause those things need to be brought and surrendered to God, and let him, let him deal with them as, as he sees fit, and to guide us, and to heal us, and to, and to carry us through.
Svea: So something that I've been sitting in- Mm
since kind of focused on this message is, how would my prayer life be different if I were as honest in my prayer life- Mm ... as these Psalms are? Mm. And, uh, you know, are there times even in my own prayers where maybe I've communicated 90% of what I'm thinking and feeling to God- Mm ... but is there that kind of last 10% that I've been a- afraid to admit- Yeah
either to him or to myself?
Rick: You know, several weeks ago, we used a clip from Theo Von's podcast. It, the, uh, there's so much rich stuff from what he had to share in that podcast, but what I loved, that people would have to go back and watch for themselves, is he talks about, um, he was praying, "God, I'm wrestling with this thing.
I wanna stop doing this thing," and he would keep going back to it, keep going back to it. And then- One day he just decided that he was gonna be honest in prayer, and he s- told God in prayer, "God, I'm lying to you. Like, I'm asking you that I don't go and do this thing anymore. Help me not go do it, but I know I'm gonna go do it.
And so would you meet me in the part that's lying to you? Not just- Hmm ... in that behavior, but the part of me right now that just like... And the, and the depth of who..." And he used the example of, like, a well. It's, I'm not just a well with, like, these desires that are, like the level of deceit that is in me- Mm-hmm
it's in the mortar between the stones that's holding the well together.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: And I just thought, that is, that's awe- why not just admit it? Like, God already knows. Who are we fooling?
Svea: Yeah. Yeah.
Rick: What's the point of pretending?
Svea: But not only do these psalms encourage us to admit things to God- Yeah ... they remind us that the purpose of this is to reach out to God- Mm-hmm
and to seek God's action- Yeah ... on our behalf, too. Yeah. It's not just a venting exercise. Um, each of these different imprecatory psalms have some kind of a plea for God to intervene.
Rick: Okay. I want to ask you a question about, uh, these imprecatory psalms, and see if I can phrase it in a way that's helpful. Is there another side to the psalm, or is there another passage where you could connect this imprecatory psalm where someone is asking God, you know, to, bust the teeth, yeah, out, out of, out of their mouths, where it's like, God's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna do it."
Done. Bank on it. Or is it just unresolved?
Svea: I'd say yes and no.
Rick: Okay.
Svea: Yes. I, we don't necessarily see that in these Psalms. These Psalms are, for the most part, one-sided. It's just someone crying out to God- ... and, uh, and pleading with Him for Him to intervene. We don't always get the other side of the story.
We don't know how much of that God actually did something that resolved that case. There are other places in scripture, uh, like in Deuteronomy- ... where d- God does talk about His role- Mm ... of being the one who will avenge His people. And in this, I think there's something that we do have to remember- Yeah
that these Psalms are written under the old covenant in this time before Jesus, in a time where God had made a covenant with this specific group of people to be their defender, their protector. Um, there was this, this kind of series of blessings and curses- Mm-hmm ... that when His people were treated well- Mm-hmm
that people would be blessed, when the people- Mm-hmm ... um, followed His commands well, that they would be blessed. Mm-hmm. When they disobeyed, there were curses and res- and, and ramifications for that. Mm-hmm. When other people hurt God's people- Mm-hmm ... there were curses and ramifications for that as well, and, uh, and that that was part of this old covenant.
And we have to remember that David writing many of these Psalms was writing as the covenantal king- ... of God's people. And so he may have had access to, a way of interacting with God- ... that doesn't necessarily apply the same way to us today now that we live under the new covenant- Mm-hmm ... um, where all of these things have been met and fulfilled in Jesus.
Yeah. Um, that doesn't mean that we can't still, um, see the underlying principle in these Psalms and still take great benefit from them. Mm-hmm. So I guess I'm wandering a little bit from your original question. Yes, we do see places in scripture where God- We do
Rick: not tolerate that here. I never do that. I would appreciate if you never do that.
Svea: I guess I've just learned from example, huh?
Rick: You know, um, David was the king, and so he was the most privileged person in the nation of Israel, I guess you could say. And yet Israel was often oppressed, often outnumbered, often overwhelmed, desperately needing the miraculous intervention of God against their enemies.
And even before David became king, he knew what it was like to be, um, oppressed and mistreated by a person in power. You brought out something that I've heard scholars bring out, and I, I think it's just really, really important to remember that these are written from the vantage point of people who are on the bottom, not people who are on the top.
Svea: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Rick: Uh, these, these are the people who are desperate and they're, they're calling out.
Svea: They are defensive cries- Yeah ... of the oppressed.
Rick: So I wanna bring in a story that might be a bit messy, and maybe this connects, maybe it doesn't. So this is where I need your help. Okay. Uh, the last time that I was in Ghana, it was at the beginning of the year.
Um, there was another missionary in Ghana. He was from Nigeria. He comes from a predominantly, uh, Muslim region. All of his relatives are, are Muslim. His father became a Christian because of a Christian missionary that came many decades ago. And so now he, his father's like the youngest son, um, in a large Muslim family, and he was adored and favored by his dad, so his Christian faith was tolerated, where normally that wouldn't be the case.
And so, um, it's just a really neat, neat story of faith. And yet this guy, uh, lived in a region, um, where he knew people who had been killed because of religious violence against Muslim terrorists, Boko Haram, folks like that. Even his own brother had been killed.
Svea: Mm.
Rick: Um, and so I sh- I was asking him, and, and again, I, I, I, I don't wanna get into anything political.
Um, that's not why I'm, I'm talking about this. I'm trying to step into the shoes, which is really difficult because I've never lived this kind of life. I'm trying to step into the shoes of someone who knows what it's like to constantly live under threat of other people who are in the majority with greater power and who are quick to be violent.
And I asked him about the strikes that the US military carried out in Nigeria, and, uh, that our presidential administration directed, and his response is that it was an answer to prayer and he felt seen.
To be the victim of violence- That I've never experienced. Just to be in his, I mean, his family to carry the wound and the scar, and to have someone rise up and bring-
Real protection in a violent world was, was powerful.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: And so the part of me that's quick, like you, the part of me that's quick to say, "This feels ugly, I don't like this," it maybe just needs to take a beat. There's a part of me that needs to, to take a beat and say, "Yes, I have a perspective, but my perspective isn't the full perspective.
I need, I need a little bit more brought in." Mm-hmm. And so maybe I just shouldn't be mad at David and others who, who wrote these Psalms. Maybe I should be a little bit more understanding.
Svea: We bristle at these when they're talking about real people. But, um, for me, one of the ways that I was kind of connecting with the concept here, um, back many years ago, one of my children had cancer.
Mm-hmm. When he was 16, our son Matthew had a- Mm-hmm ... parotid tumor.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: And, uh, he actual- he actually named his tumor. Um, w- he called it Darren, and Darren became the common enemy- Hmm ... that our family was fighting against. Yeah. And he could express, like, "Okay, we're gonna go, and we're gonna kill Darren today."
And- Wow ... and, you know, he'd get his, uh, radiation treatments- Yeah ... and it'd be like, "Let's nuke Darren." And- Yeah ... and it, in many ways, it almost bonded our family- Hmm ... against this common enemy- Mm-hmm ... that we were all seeking to just not only- Yeah ... get rid of- Mm-hmm ... but, you know, to make this tumor pay - Yeah
and go away for the- Yeah ... suffering that it was causing.
Rick: Hmm.
Svea: Um, it, you know, and that didn't feel like there was anything immoral about being united against the evil of this- Personified tumor,
Rick: yeah ...
Svea: cancerous disease.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: Um, but I, so I can imagine if, if you were a person living under that kind of evil oppression- Yeah
from somewhere else- Yeah ... that it could feel like this is, like, this cancerous entity- Yeah ... that is threatening to destroy my life.
Rick: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Svea: And, uh, and that it would be amazingly beautiful to see God- Mm-hmm ... interact in that.
Rick: So there is a question that was sent in, and I wanna pivot to answer this question, but I wanna tee it up like this.
Yes to all that you said. Uh, there are times clearly in the Old Testament that God rises up and protects His people from those who are intending to do evil and harm, those who have been guilty of doing evil and harm, and God protects and thwarts them, destroys them. How are these psalms, these imprecatory psalms, how are they ultimately fulfilled?
Are they ultimately fulfilled? And how should we think about them? We've said this numerous times. We're not the first people to say that this is just the way to see the Old Testament. Everything points to Jesus. Mm-hmm. Jesus told the Pharisees, the guys who were the religious experts in the day, "You search the scriptures because you think in, in them you're gonna find eternal life, but these are the very words that testify about me."
So if even the imprecatory psalms point to Jesus, and Jesus said love your enemies. What am I supposed to do with this?
Svea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think what you said, I like the way you phrased that, 'cause I think the first thing we- Thank you ...
Rick: want to remember- I was, I was pretty impressed- ... with that question too.
Svea: You, you are the quickest to take a compliment- ... of anyone I know.
Rick: Always ready to receive it.
Svea: Um, no, I think you, you said it in an important way. Mm-hmm. That how is Jesus the fulfillment of this? How does this point to Jesus? Mm-hmm. Because first of all, we do see that, that this, Jesus did fulfill these Psalms.
He didn't nullify them. It's not like when Jesus came, he took parts of the, what we now know as the Old Testament, and just ripped them up and like, "Okay, actually, we're done with that now." Mm-hmm. "That doesn't apply anymore." Um, no, they're still valuable texts to us. Mm-hmm. But what we, what they do is what you said, they point us to Jesus.
So Jesus came, and he told us to love our enemies.
But he didn't say that that means that they're not still going to be held accountable for the evil that they cause. Um, but the, the application here that, again, just as God said in the Old Testament- Mm-hmm ... that vengeance is his, it's not our position to go out and take it out on our enemies.
He's saying, "No, you wanna show the same kind of love towards your enemies that God is showing to you when you were still his enemy." You know- Mm-hmm ... Romans 5 talks about that, that when we were still- Mm-hmm ... the enemies of God, Christ died for us. And to see, um, that we can hold, just like God does, this need for love, for mercy-
In compatibility with justice- Mm-hmm ... and, uh, and holiness. That- Mm-hmm ... the, these are all things that we hold in tension- ... and we continue to do that. When Jesus died on the cross, it was the most beautiful picture of mercy-
...
Svea: And forgiveness, but also justice. Mm. And not, not shying away from- the depth of evil and the depravity of evil, but to, um, to atone for evil with the, the biggest thing that he could offer, his own very life. Mm-hmm. So the way that he fulfills this, I see this in this kind of, this day of God's vengeance- Mm-hmm ... um, that we're waiting for, is like many things in the Bible.
It's a now and a not yet.
Rick: Mm.
Svea: He both accomplished something on the cross of dealing with the evil-
...
Svea: For all eternity, and yet we're still in this not yet period, where we're waiting for him to return and to actually abolish evil- Mm ... and to once- Mm ... and for all eliminate evil.
Rick: You know, as I think about your sermon, and I think, and as I listen to you talk about this, I have this eject- juxtaposition of at least two major scenes in the life of the Apostle Peter.
So there's the scene in the Garden of Gethsemane, and he grabs a sword. He obviously is not competent with a sword 'cause all he gets is an ear when he attacks one of the people that, that comes to, uh, arrest Jesus. And that is understandable. I think there's probably a lot of us who would kinda feel like, "Yeah, that's what I wanna do.
You you come to, to, to mess with my rabbi, with my Jesus, and- Mm-hmm ... and, and, and what you're doing is wrong, and this is unjust. And so I'm going to, I'm gonna fight fire with fire." And he is a living representation of how we might want to mishandle these imprecatory psalms. Mm-hmm. We're gonna wield them like a sword.
Mm-hmm. And what does Jesus do? He puts the sword away, picks up the ear, the, the piece that's mangled on the ground, puts it back on the guy who's coming to arrest him, and heals the guy, and then goes to the cro- endures all the stuff in the trial, goes to the cross, forgives the people who are driving the nails into his feet, into his hands, and, and all of that stuff.
And what we see at the end of Peter's life is that when he is executed, when he's martyred for his role in advancing the gospel movement, that he so identifies with Jesus and feels unworthy to be crucified the way that Jesus was, the tradition is, is that he asked to be crucified upside down. So there's this Jesus-like transformation- Mm
that takes place in him, that he, not only does he drop the sword, is that he embraces martyrdom, which also, the implication is, he is trusting the justice of it all to the hands of God.
Svea: That's beautiful. I had not thought of that story arc in Peter's life as kind of what we're seeing in connecting that. I like that a lot, though, 'cause I think that is kind of what- Mm-hmm
the imprecatory psalms are doing. Yeah. They're pointing us, not primarily to- Yeah ... to, to vengeance itself, but our need to take vengeance to God- Yeah ... rather than just wield that sword ourselves.
Rick: So you know that I'm a fan of, like, trying to come up with sticky axiomatic statements. And you just said something, "Instead of taking vengeance, take your desire for vengeance to God."
Svea: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Rick: That's
Svea: good. Yeah, I think that's important. Um- You know, and then I think it maybe also helps us with how they reconcile with, with the Sermon on the Mount- Mm-hmm ... and what Jesus is calling us to. Because while Jesus is calling us to love our enemies, to pray for them- Mm-hmm ... to forgive them, um, and to refuse retaliation against them, loving our enemies doesn't mean that we stop longing for justice.
And we can hold these things together, and I think in the cross, we see these things held together.
Rick: We don't ignore bad things. We don't ignore evil. We don't gloss over evil.
We have to address it.
Svea: Mm.
Rick: For sure.
Svea: And that's, I mean, God did the epitome of that- Yeah ... in, in, uh, what Jesus accomplished for us.
And so if we saw Him model kind of on this extreme- Mm ... meta level-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: how He dealt with evil, how much more confidence can we have in whatever we're facing to be able to take that to God?
Rick: So we get to pursue making things right. We get to pursue goodness and justice, but we don't get to pursue revenge.
We trust God to mete that out as He sees fit. And ultimately, on the cross, Jesus said, "I'll take it. I'll take it for everyone."
Svea: Yeah. "
Rick: For everyone who trusted me, I'll receive..." That's what Isaiah 53 is telling us, that the punishment for our sin was laid on Him.
Svea: So I hope just, you know, kind of tying a bow- Mm
on all of this, um, this was a f- a fun, fun, uh, thing for me to work on- Mm ... just in my own desire to see, how do I take texts in scripture- ... that feel a little prickly, a little dark- Mm-hmm ... a little offensive- Mm ... and see the beauty of Jesus in it? And I hope that is what came out. And, uh, and I would love nothing more than the next time someone reads through the Psalms and they see Psalms like this, rather than being like, "Oh, that's just gross, I don't get it," and skipping over it, to look for Jesus in it, to look for the beauty of being able to take our deepest and darkest feelings to God, to be able to trust that, no matter what it is that we're facing, that God wants to walk with us in it.
And even for things such as, you know, I need you to deal with the evil or the brokenness or any of that, that we can take that to God, too, and trust that He's more than just our confidant. He is the one who is ultimately going to handle every situation that threatens us.