Rob Cattalani - Why Does 100 Years Matter?

Show Notes

Rob Cattalani - Why Does 100 Years Matter? by Browncroft Community Church

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Peter Englert: Welcome to the Why God Why podcast. This is Peter Englert. I am one of the co-hosts here. We're here with our illustrious co-host, Aaron Mercer.

Aaron Mercer: That never gets old. I'll take it, illustrious, yeah.

Peter Englert: There you go, our fantastic producer, Nathan Yoder, and our remarkable senior pastor, who is joining the three times interview club on Why God Why.

Rob Cattalani: Nice, awesome, glad to be here.

Peter Englert: There you go. We're glad to have you. As a church, we're celebrating our 100th year anniversary, our Centennial, so the question that we're responding to is why does a 100 years matter? The reason we exist as a podcast is because we want to respond to the questions you don't feel comfortable asking in church. You may wonder why would I listen to this podcast? Well, I think there's a story here about a church that's imperfect, that loves Jesus, that makes a difference, and we're excited to hear from Rob about that. What do you think?

Aaron Mercer: No, absolutely. I'm really thankful that Pastor Rob is here with us today, and I feel maybe I should have worn a suit or something, or a jacket, because I got my boss on here. I don't know.

Rob Cattalani: You're looking pretty sharp. I like that shirt, Aaron. You look pretty good.

Aaron Mercer: All right. Okay, man.

Rob Cattalani: Yeah.

Aaron Mercer: We're all right then.

Rob Cattalani: You might have to tell Pete and I where you got that.

Aaron Mercer: I'm really excited about this conversation. Before we had actually, a couple of our partners here in the Rochester area on our podcast talking about why does 100 years matter, for a church to be in a community for 100 years? And it was really good to talk to them from that perspective. I'm really excited about hearing from you, Pastor Rob. Honestly, I'd love to start with just tell us some of your story, how did you get here? I know bits and pieces of it, but I don't know a lot of it. And I'm sure a lot of our listeners don't know either. How did you end up at Browncroft?

Rob Cattalani: Well, I am from here. Many people would know that, but maybe not everybody. Born and raised Rochester, went to high school here and even college here. My family's here, but when I finished college at the U of R, then I decided to go to seminary. I did that in Dallas, Texas, Dallas Theological Seminary. I was there for a church for 10 years, but then, in a strange way, God called me here.
And this is a unique story. I was not really looking for a job. I had a great job. Really, my only job after seminary was called Fellowship Dallas. It's a church in Dallas and that was my only job. I'd been there really nine years and really enjoying it. I had finished seminary and enjoyed my life in Dallas. But I would come up here. Of course, my family was here. I'd be here at least twice a year, Christmas and summer Adirondack trip, and sometimes more.
But in the late winter, early late winter of 2004, late winter of 2004 or maybe even into the fall of 2004, my mother was diagnosed with cancer. She was going through treatment. And so, in that season, I started to come up here a lot. I might be here for a week at a time, but I didn't have a lot to do, because other than, of course, visiting her, which I did, but then my family members they went to work, and so, this is my hometown but I wasn't really living here at the time. So, I got connected with actually a guy used to work here, a name that many won't remember Jim Lille, he was on staff here. Jim and I didn't know each other well, but he and my brother-in-law knew each other well. And Jim didn't really know me, but he knew about me mainly through my brother-in-law, but we both went to the same seminary.
Jim was just an affable outgoing guy. And he reached out to me. And so we started to just talk and I think I had coffee with him, and at the time the other interim pastor at Browncroft was in between senior pastors, Phil [inaudible]. And just talking about shop, that is to say church. And because at the time I was from Dallas, Texas, which in the church world is a place of, I don't know, where a lot of people, there's a lot of big churches and a couple of the larger seminaries are in Dallas Fort Worth. So, it was just a place to talk about what's going on in the greater world.
And so I had lunch and coffee with those guys, and I was back and forth to Rochester over a period of maybe just a couple months when my mother was going through that treatment. But maybe over those couple months, I might have had, I don't know, half a dozen sit downs at Starbucks with these guys. I think mostly Phil and Jim, just talking about church.
And then a couple months after that, my mother did pass away in 2004. And a couple months after that, I get a call from one of the elders who just said, "Hey, you don't know me, I am just calling, I know you're not necessarily looking for a job, I don't know anything about your story, but I've heard good things about you and I'd be interested in having a conversation with you." And so I did. And that led to some more conversations and eventually me responding to their invitation to apply to be the senior pastor.
That story, maybe a lot of people don't know anymore, because it's old, but that's how I got involved. And it was a long journey. From that first phone call to the time I was the pastor, it was probably a whole year. And it was because it was a long journey of search. I was flattered, but not necessarily interested. I wasn't looking for a job. And I think the church, they were just doing their due diligence. I don't know that they were crazy about me. I was one of the guys on the list. So that took some time and I had a job at the time where I was traveling a bunch. And so it took some time, but eventually I think I became more serious in my own prayer and thought. And at some point, the church became more interested in me over some months. And that culminated in the end of that year, 2004 of candidating. And I started in early 2005. So, that's how I got here.

Aaron Mercer: The rest is history, I guess.

Rob Cattalani: I guess. Yeah, the rest is history.

Aaron Mercer: Did you know about Browncroft before?

Rob Cattalani: I did. Although I grew up in Rochester in West Irondequoit, not in Penfield, so I knew of Browncroft, and I think my brother-in-law had come here some before he was my brother-in-law. But really I had never been to BrownCroft that I can think of for any reason. And because I just was not invited or did not grow up in this immediate area.
So yes, I knew of the church but I had never been here, and really didn't... It's funny when you grow up, now Rochester seems like a small town, but then if you grow up on, I grew up in Irondequoit, I don't think I went to Fairport till I was in the middle 17 or something. You know what I mean? And you're just, it's like the other side of the world. So I was not... And I didn't become a Christian till I was a college student. So churches like Browncroft, let's call it an evangelical church, was not on my radar. I couldn't have told you, if you asked me in high school, "Tell me three evangelical churches?" I wouldn't even have known what you were talking about. So in that sense, I didn't know it. But I eventually came to know who Browncroft was and knew people that went there.

Aaron Mercer: So I'll let Peter get a word in edgewise here in a second, but I'm curious... Is that all right Peter?

Peter Englert: You're doing great. Keep going.

Aaron Mercer: All right. So, sometimes we have to arm ourselves here for the microphone. What was it about Browncroft that caught your attention, that made you... I know they approached you and you had good conversations with them, but was there something in the church itself that grabbed your attention? Something that you saw, some excitement, promising maybe a need, what was the-

Rob Cattalani: Well, it's interesting, I don't think I really, by the time I... I had been in conversations with the church before I ever came here. So I think, to first answer your question was what most impressed me really wasn't the church, that is the building, the facility, or that I'd even had any sense of being in the service, but it was through conversations really.
And the first one was from a guy who's still here, Brent Heckman, who was an elder, and he was the head of this search team. He's the one that called me out of the blue. He introduced himself as an elder. Because when I was here these original conversations, it was just with two staff guys, just pastors talking shop. I was associate pastor in a church in Texas and these other guys were associate pastors here. So when Brent called me, that was an official call. And I would say the short answer is, really, if it was not for his, I don't know, his candor, his wisdom, his winsomeness, I don't think I'd ever gotten past that phone call, we had a couple phone calls. So number one was just the quality of who he was, and he, in a general way, talked me into staying in the process, even when it was clear I was not, let's say, a top candidate.
First, he just talked me into doing it in the first place, because I was open to it, but I wasn't looking to leave my job, and they weren't hotly pursuing me, so it was casual. He talked me into doing that, and it was an exercise of faith for me, just saying, "Well, I'll just pray about it. Maybe this is a practice run." And it was, I would say not super serious for them or for me. But then he was great.
And then when I did finally have a conversation with the search team, it was the quality of those conversations. Really, I can still remember Christie Rush, the name some might know, she's not here anymore, and she was part of that team and she was just... There were others, but those are two people... There was a handful of people on that team that really just impressed me. And so I would say that was really it.

Aaron Mercer: That's cool.

Rob Cattalani: Now once I came here, there's a lot of things I liked about the church. I was impressed with it's, even speaking of the Centennial, you could tell this was a church that had a lot of spiritual depth and breadth. When I first talked to the elder board, when I got to meet parts of the congregation, I could see that the history of the church, without even knowing that the church had the history it did, I think I could sense that a certain, I don't know, what do you want to call it? We often see Browncroft as a thinking church, and I mean then as a compliment. So I think those were things that impressed me about the church when I first came.

Peter Englert: I think a lot of our listeners, they're really struggling with church and they might not like the institution of church, and you've been very real and authentic about, there was four years that BrownCroft didn't have a pastor, and then you've been very real about these 17 years have not always been the easiest. And I guess I'd just be curious from your perspective, there's a lot of pastors that are quitting, there's a lot of, you're still here, there's still a lot of energy. What is it about it in this season when it seems we're questioning Christianity, we're questioning the church? What has it that's really energized you in this season?

Rob Cattalani: Well, there's two questions there. One is about the church and being a pastor. One is about my faith or people in general. I think on the latter, I would say, I'm probably not where the culture is in the sense of, I think you're right Pete, in what you're saying, I think the culture's confused. And a lot of people, the church is, people come from the world into the church. But I would say my faith is probably the strongest it's ever been in my life. And I'm not saying I'm a spiritual giant, but I would just say for me, I think I have a stronger faith than I have ever had in my adult life. My love for the word of God, my sense of God's place in my life, and even my conviction about the fundamentals of the faith. So, in that sense, I'm probably, I don't know if that's just about age and stage or whatever, but I don't share a lot of the confusion and skepticism of our culture. I respect it, but I don't share it.
Now, but when it comes to your other question of thinking about the church, if you're right and I hope you are, I think you are, that I'm enthusiastic about my job, I would say I'm also as enthusiastic as I've been in my career, about being a pastor. Now, that doesn't mean it's been always up to the right, but I think the reason that is, and maybe this is a compliment of the church, I think my last 17 years have been challenging in a lot of ways. I don't know that they've been unique to me, and they are in some ways, but being a pastor of a church is a challenge. It's like being a parent. And so for all the reasons that you might think, that you are both leading an organization while you're trying to grow into that leader. Well, it's like you're parenting kids when you don't really know. You're figuring out what it means to be a parent as you're being a parent.
I think that's probably true of every pastor. And this is my one and only senior pastor job. So even though I've been a pastor for nine years, I wasn't a senior pastor. So, no matter how similar those things are, and I did come from a big church and learned a lot of nice, great things that gave me a level of confidence, my first day here was my first day here.
So, I think I was like a lot of people, Pete, when I had to just learn some things. I would say most of my troubles, or I don't know, whatever the right word is, really were probably largely self-inflicted, or either self-inflicted through being too eager, not knowing enough as we all are in our ministries or our careers, trying to do things sooner than they need to be done, or not fully appreciating the environment. Because being a pastor, I often said to people, of a church that you didn't start, it's like being a stepparent, in the sense of, you're inheriting a family that already has a network of relationships, that already has levels of maturity, that already has interests and points of view, and you're now becoming like a parent to children that you didn't birth.
Well, that's wonderful on the cover on the Christmas card. But when it comes to trying to actually understand how to shepherd and lead people that you didn't really birth, which is different than a church plan, you learn things sometimes the hard way. And I think I made assumptions that were turned out to be wrong about people or either about how hard things would be. So, I think many of those difficulties, but I would say, as a compliment to Browncroft, through thick and thin where I made mistakes or moved too quick or too slow, the church moved with me.
I think one of the great compliments to this church, in my opinion is, and I'm not always sure they did the right thing by me, that is to say that they allowed me to grow up while I was at the same time becoming their pastor. And that's a tremendous gift. And so, I'm humbled by it because at times, I could look back, I'm sure people in the church probably can go, "We might have been able to move quicker here or smarter here if our pastor was ready," but they stuck with me. And so, all that to say, if I'm answering your question, I feel good. I'm humbled and grateful to be where I am. And I'm not done, but I feel very much the better person for being here, and being in this church and being able to grow and serve.

Peter Englert: I appreciate that resilience and just even the humility and perspective. And I guess I want to shift to the story of the church, because I think some of our listeners are even asking, does the church even matter? And I think the question that the three of, I'll add Nathan, and the four of us ask a lot as church leaders is, if our church disappeared tomorrow, would anybody notice? And you as a pastor, as you think through celebrating 100 years at a church, what do you think would happen if Browncroft didn't exist in Rochester?

Rob Cattalani: That's a great question, because it's a great question to ask in the history of the church, because we typically think of local churches. Like, what would Penfield do? Or what would this corner of the world do without a church? I'm not sure I always think of it that way here, although we have become more and more, let's say, aware and engaged even in, let's say our Penfield, good Neighbor Day and with Penfield 4th of July. And most of us live, I'd say a majority of this church lives in Penfield, most but not all, but let's say, that's in those two big suburbs. But I think of Browncroft, in some ways, of having even part of the city, it's even beyond. And people come here from things outside of our suburb.
But I guess I would... So I answered the question saying, I don't know, I'd hope that Penfield would miss us, our immediate geography. But I think beyond that, I would like to think it's really about life change. I don't know that I think that's the bottom line and I would hope that if Browncroft closed its doors, and I hope it never does, that God would create other opportunities, would plant other churches that would do this work.
But I think what Browncroft does has done so well, perhaps why God has allowed to stay where it is, is it's really about impacting lives. And what are those? Certainly families come to mind, the family ministry has been a huge ministry here. And I still, when I talk to people, pizza for the pastor as an example, why are people here? They're here because their kids come and they feel engaged. And I talk to a lot of parents who are here because they're trying to educate their kids. So I think that would be something that would be missed. Of course, other churches do it, but I don't know that churches do it, many do it better or as well. And so that would be something for sure, I think that would be missed.
I think Browncroft's commitment, if you were in church last Sunday, I was encouraged that Marilyn Pelton mentioned this, who's been here for many, many years, since, I think her and her husband came in the mid '70s. So that's a long time ago, and they were very, very young. And she said, just in the last handful of years, I don't know what she meant by that, Browncroft's commitment or maybe recommitment to our city, that is the city of Rochester, the city zip codes, I would like to think that's important. I just got off the phone a little while ago with Mike Hennessy, just an hour ago, just as an example, our Youth for Christ leader. But I think that would be something I think would be missed. Our commitment to engage our community in what's going on in the city.
But I think it's ultimately about people. I think the best thing that any church does, that's, let's call it a Bible preaching teaching church, is to share the gospel and to see people experience life change. And I still see that in this church, in single people, married people, people that are new to the faith.
We met someone on pizza with the pastor this past Sunday, whatever this Sunday, 24th of April, it was a woman who was, I think she self-disclosed she was 40 years old from here, and Easter Sunday was the first time she had been to church in her entire life. Now I didn't get the backstory because there's a lot of people on that call, so we don't get to go into deep, although we may, Kim may do that. But that's just so encouraging. And she seemed very genuine.
In the last one we had, which was a month ago, would've been in the middle of March, I can remember a young woman who, I think she's a PhD student at the U of R, originally from Myanmar, I think. And she had a similar story, a very interesting story of how she got here, through the troubles in Myanmar over the last many, many years. But she just talked about her faith, which I'm not even sure she's a Christian, but very much talking about her journey of faith. And I thought it's amazing that God led this woman, if you knew her story, ultimately to Rochester, New York to Browncroft, and how she was talking about how God was drawing her in.
So anyway, those are just two quick stories. I think that I hope, Pete, would be the most important miss if we weren't here.

Aaron Mercer: And for those who are listening, who may not know Browncroft as well yet, pizza with the pastor is an opportunity for new guests to get more plugged into our congregation and they get to have a pizza with pastor Rob virtually. So, for anyone listening right now, if you want to visit Browncroft, it's a good time. So, that's my little commercial there.
But I think that's really great pastor. And I really liked it that you brought up even the idea of plugging in more to our community. I think, as I've been looking at Browncroft's history, I've noticed Browncroft being involved in the community throughout the decades, which is really cool, I think. It's one thing that's impressed me a lot as I've been researching what's been going on in this church. One of our colleagues labeled me, Indiana Mercer, the other day-

Rob Cattalani: Oh, you go.

Aaron Mercer: ... because I've been searching through our records, and I love history, I'm a little bit of a nerd, but I really have been impressed since I've been here seeing how Browncroft has been involved with the City of Rochester and with the town of Penfield, our local community. And that's something I think that has really blossomed quite a bit certainly in the last handful of years, in the last 15 years, during your tenure. How did you build those relationships?
I know there's a lot of people here who are working things at different angles. I know Peter has been involved with that as well, but as the senior pastor here, how have you made that happen so that Browncroft is making a difference in this community and connecting with the right people to make things happen?

Rob Cattalani: In many ways. Browncroft because I was saying before has had such a rich history. Always it seemed to have whether it's missionaries or local missions or even working evangelism, it has a footprint. So in some cases, whether it's city ministry in the city of Rochester or family ministry, things ebb and flow, sometimes they're at a low ebb but there's a history there to draw upon. And so, even to answer your question relative to the city, Browncroft has had a long relationship with Rochester Family Mission, as an example, going way back to its genesis, literally.

Aaron Mercer: We actually had them in our episode that aired last week, and we showed the financial statement from 1927 showing that we had given them money in their first year.

Rob Cattalani: Yeah, I remember meeting people when I first came who, the Cowie family who were involved in that going way back to its genesis, people that are still involved and have some connection to this church today. But I think so. So there was something to work with. I can remember when I very first came, Steven [inaudible] taking me to what, at the time, this would've been, let's say 2005-ish, to a piece of property that RFM was thinking about buying and they didn't end up buying. But that was within the first many months of being here. They were these little bus tours, van tours that we were going on Saturday to see that. So, even though there have been some things that were either restarted, re-energized, or new things that Browncroft had a footprint to work with, that's the first answer to your question.
But for me, I think, you're looking at what can we do? I think Browncroft has always had a strong commitment to missions, and typically, you think of missions as global missions. But I think one of the things I felt strong about as being a pastor was, the discipleship of the congregation. And as great as what we call global missions are, and I used to be a global missions pastor, so to speak, so a very strong commitment to that, but I was thinking about how to get people engaged in service serving, being involved in ministry and not only in the church but in the community, is one of the best ways to people be discipled. So I think, Aaron, one of the things I thought is, how can we do that? And how can we use the network we have or build a network?
So I think it was a desire to want to see people engage in their faith and discipleship that I had this conviction that knowing that, and if we're local, we could get a lot more people involved. And so I think I leaned in there at the time when I first came, they had hired a missions pastor. So I thought, well, there's someone who has that job. I've been talking about global missions. So I think it was an opportunity for me to exercise some pastoral leadership and even connect with people. So that would be, I would say one of the reasons that I really felt like that was something I wanted to do.

Aaron Mercer: That's great.

Peter Englert: So, this morning I was reading The Resilient Pastor by Glenn Packiam, and he's writing on behalf of Barna. And in the first page, he mentions Walter Rauschenbusch. And for our listeners that don't know Walter Rauschenbusch, he was from Rochester, New York, basically started what we call the social gospel, which really focused on helping people. But the critique was, is there was a little loss of who Jesus was and the authority of the Bible, and Browncroft's history is basically in response to the social gospel of affirming the authority of the Bible.
And I think what I'm hearing from you and that I'd love to hear you respond is, there's this thought that you're going either one way or the other, but what you're saying, at least in your 17 years here, and in the 100 years, Browncroft hasn't chosen one side or the other of pursuing social justice, pursuing social change, while also not giving up the gospel or overdoing it. What you've said in the history of this church is they've really tried to manage that tension of, if Jesus Christ has really changed our lives as individuals in the community, that means we're here in Rochester, New York, Monroe County in the State of New York, and even across the world, to make it a better place. How have you entered that conversation knowing a little bit of that history?

Rob Cattalani: Yeah, I think my impression of coming to the church was, they did have a great experience both in a strong commitment to the evangel, so to speak, a commitment to teaching the scriptures and being evangelical. And that was very important to them and that was important to me. And they did have a great history. I think it ebbs and flows, I think even global missions, there was a time under Pastor Crawford who's one of the longest single serving senior pastor 34 years-ish, does that sound right?

Aaron Mercer: 37 years, yeah.

Rob Cattalani: 37 years.

Aaron Mercer: Sorry, I'm the history nerd, remember that.

Rob Cattalani: That's good. So we need you around here to help us remember what we don't know. But I remember I was told early on, is just a significant statistic that sometimes this could have been in the 1970s, but he was given an award by Houghton College for just as one single church that had raised up X number of missionaries. So they didn't just support a lot of missionaries, which isn't a bad thing, and Browncroft does that, but many of the missionaries we support aren't from Browncroft, they find their way through Browncroft through relationships or networks or agencies. But he had gotten an award that was about raising up missionaries from the church. Pete and Robyn Englert decided to go to missionary, if they did that, they would be sort of homegrown. They felt the call while they were here in this church.
So, I think that's a beautiful thing. That's a perfect example of both marrying the commitment to the word of God and the ultimate great commission, and seeing how it can make an impact both in this case with missionaries, so Browncroft did a good job, and Browncroft did have a great commitment. Although I think, in my sense, had become, I don't know, less hot. I'm talking about locally, whether it was with the jail ministry, that'd be a great example, of working in the county jail, which they've done forever. But I think it was very big at some time. And RFM was big at one time.
So I think Browncroft had a good sense of that. I don't think Browncroft at all, in my opinion, leaned in the direction of the social gospel as you mentioned, what does that mean? That people feel like the gospel means just helping people that need help, that is the gospel. And where we would say the gospel is encountering the forgiveness of Christ and being in a relationship with Jesus, which then helps one live a Christ-like life. It starts with a relationship with Jesus. I don't think Browncroft ever had that, in my sense, made that mistake, but they showed that they had done a great job in these things in the past.
And so, I don't remember ever hearing any pushback, but I just sensed, don't get involved in... But we've done things like the school system. I think that's relatively in the last dozen years, our commitment to the Rochester City schools, which is not easy work, and there are, of course, regulations and limitations when you're talking about a school. So it's not like you're in there preaching the gospel on a weekday. But I think maybe because the church has a strong evangelical commitment, I don't remember anyone sweating about our involvement there. We were losing focus.
I don't know if I'm even answering your question. I get the tension. And some churches certainly are more, even churches in our city because it's their framework, they would be less shy about the social gospel in the ways that you describe it. And they would say that is the work of the church, and that is a big part of the work of the church. I think Browncroft has maintained such a strong commitment to life change, first, the gospel changing our hearts and leading to ministry to all kinds of people, whether they drive nice cars and live in the suburbs or they are in a third different part of the world. So, it's just been a privilege to try to energize us and move us in those directions.

Peter Englert: I want to come back to just your personal story and just when I asked you about, if the church wasn't here, you pointed at individuals. And I don't think our listeners fully appreciate being a first-generation Christian. My parents were kind of the first-generation Christian, and that changed a ton in my family. Aaron, I don't know what legacy you have, but I'm just interested because you've brought up a few families from the church, and these are all, you are the... I came to Rochester and one of my favorite stories that you tell, if it's bad we can edit it out, but you got to one of the search committees and you met Kim Igoe who's on our staff, and you're like, "Crud, I went to high school with her."

Rob Cattalani: Yeah.

Peter Englert: And there's a different Rob from Irondequoit High School to the Rob that shows up as pastor. And I guess, I'm just curious for you from someone that's a first-generation Christian in their family and you have a number of siblings that are also following Jesus too. When you talk about the legacy of families, there's things we can't measure. Like, we can't measure how the gospel, this couple didn't get divorced, we can't measure how someone might have lost their job or the alcoholism. But is that the biggest thing that you sit back and you go, "Wow, there's these families that one person took a risk and that changed the course of eternity in their life?"

Rob Cattalani: It certainly is my story. Everyone is unique to their story and there's always challenges in being a second-generation Christian as you know, I guess Pete, and you're in the middle because your parents became Christians once you were already in the game, a young kid. But no, it gives me great respect for the importance of sharing the faith, of being evangelizing and knowing what it's like to come as a young adult, I was 18, to experience something that's truly radical. And that doesn't mean that's the only way to become a Christian. I think if I had kids, I'd want to get them to Jesus as soon as they could be, as young as they are, I would want to do everything I could, even if they received Christ and it seemed as natural as going to school.
But for me, when I came to Christ as a college student, freshman in college, it was, there's nothing I can think of in my life that would be comparison, that's, it was the biggest unexpected change. And it doesn't mean it's all simple, but it was really, in some sense, all positive. And so when I think back, whether it's my sister who played a role, whether it's a few other people, old high school buddies that played a role, whether it was then some people I met that were friends of friends who took the time to talk with me and pray with me, I think it's huge. And that we are around people maybe more than ever, that do not grow up in Christian homes or don't have a personal faith in Jesus.
And when you see people, as we could name names even here just in the last handful of years, when you baptize people and often not always, they're new believers. When I think of that girl, the first girl that I named Cassie, the one that we came through the pizza with the pastor, and just, what a wonderful story that was. Talk about a powerful story. I think she was just a high school kid. But almost the two stories I just mentioned on pizza with the pastor, which is also where I think we met her, but it's profound to hear people talk about their faith when they're a young adult or an adult, and to think that you or I had a role or someone had a role in helping them become a Christian, it's huge. So, I think that's what makes the faith so amazing.
And even people that are like the great Nathan Yoder who's here who, I don't know Nate's whole story, but I know his mom and dad, and I would say Nate grew up in a Christian family, but even then, he's making his own decisions. You know what I mean? People still like you, Pete. So there's a story there too. Basically everybody needs to make a commitment to Christ. Like what Ted Jero said in his message last Sunday, in that interview, for those who were in church, "I was a believer, but then I became convinced." So everyone has to do that. But I do think there's something very exciting, if I'm answering your question, about reaching people who, whether they grow up in a nominal religious home or not, to know Christ, that's, I think, the most exciting work a church can do.
And here all these years later, not only the 100 years of Browncroft, but the 2,000 years of the church of Jesus, with all that happens in this world, all the bells and whistles that have happened in this world, all the technology, in a sense, it hasn't really moved the needle, in my opinion, on something that's more dramatic and powerful than somebody who comes to meet the gospel to experience the forgiveness of sins, and that's what the church gets to do. So it's a beautiful thing.

Aaron Mercer: Amen. No, that's so cool. I love that. So, I'm curious, over the last couple decades, we could talk about the 100 years of the church, but you're much more familiar with the last couple decades, I'm curious, what's been a surprise for you over that time? It can be a good surprise, it doesn't that to be a bad surprise, but for our church in particular, or maybe the church more at large too.
And then I also wanted to ask, and this will maybe shift us towards looking at the future too. When you look at the trajectory or the terrain that we're in right now, what's something that you would hope will surprise you 20 years from now about where Browncroft has gone or, I guess I'm trying to fish a little bit for, where do you want to see us? Where would you love to see God do an awesome work and really surprise all of us where he sends us?

Rob Cattalani: Yeah, I think the thing that I'm most hopeful about if I'm trying to answer your question is, what I was saying before about where my faith is. There's a lot of change the world has experienced, tons have changed, in the digital revolution which is still going on in many ways, in the globalization which is a big part of the supply chain issues that we're having, in the cultural changes with gender identity, et cetera, et cetera. You think of all these changes that are rapidly happening, and you could say that it's... Some people I think are, even when Pete mentioned pastors leaving the ministry, which I think was more related to COVID and some of the challenges of the last 24 months, I think there has been a lot of people who've said, "I'm just exhausted, and it's difficult."
I think all of those realities are true. But back to the hope, to me, I see it as making the church burn brighter, not dimer. Because what those things tell me is there's more anxiety in the culture, there's more fear in the culture, there's more uncertainty. So there's more technology, but technology isn't certainty, technology is technology. So my sense is, if the gospel is about knowing who you are, a true identity, who made you? Answering the big questions of life, why am I here? And what is the meaning of life? What is the meaning of my life? I don't think those questions go away. And I don't believe, I think technology can be used, oh my goodness, we're using it right now, so one of the short answers to your question is, does technology advance the gospel? Absolutely. But it's not technology, it's the gospel.
So to me, I'm a bee Aaron, because I think the opportunities are greater from the church than they have ever been in my small lifetime. And this is to say, I've only lived however many years I've lived. I'm not in the 2,000 years of the history. But in my life, I'd say they're greater. Because you might say the untimely death of Christendom or whatever you want to call it, at least 20th century America, and this maybe more in the south than the north, that Christian culture thing, which was nice, that you didn't have to go to... You could send your kids to the public school and not worry about X, Y, and Z, or certain cultural issues that are now in your face weren't in your face.
So the culture cooperated with let's say a certain ethic, but that's still only, it wasn't necessarily changing people's lives, it was just making my life as a Christian or my raising children as a Christian, it made it a little bit easier. And I'd rather live in America than live in the Middle East or something, or some other place that's not friendly to Christianity.
But when it comes to changing people's lives, in the gospel, changing culture from the inside out, now, things are more exposed. And some of the baloney or what stood in between Christians and non-Christians has been removed. There's more exposure, but I think it's great for opportunity. It's the first thing I'd say.
The second thing I would say is, this is what I hear. I don't know, maybe we should interview Nate, just as a younger cohort, but to say, what I'm hearing from people or things that I've read is people that are, whether they're Christian or non-Christian, they have a greater hunger for truth and not less of a hunger. Even though the world has become relativistic, I think people are more hungry for truth.
I'm not so sure that what we're seeing nationally, I'm talking about internationally with a rise of nationalism, Putin, Donald Trump, the guy, we go down the line of, there's been a general move towards nationalistic politics, even in France. Now what's his name? Just won barely, but Le Pen was a strong nationalist. And that's not unique to America or to Russia. But I think what that's reflective of, is a hunger for certainty.
And I'm not saying that's the right way to go. I think a lot of these governments, authoritarianism is not healthy, but it there's a hunger for certainty because some of the cultural fabric has come apart. But I think that upside is what people want to know when they're just looking for spiritual truth is a sense of certainty. I think that gives us an opportunity. As I've said, I joke with Pete a lot as one of our discipleship guys. I think people, even Christians, let's start with who we have, they are hungering for the word of God, hungering for doctrine, hungering for truth, hungering for greater understanding. So I would say that's the upside because the other side of that is we have so many resources when it comes to learning the scriptures, learning, let's say the true fundamentals of the faith.
You look at even something like, I don't know if our listeners would know this or people listening, The Gospel Coalition, that's a dusty organization that we know because we all are in this business, but it's only been around for 15, 18 years. Oh my goodness, the thing's huge. And it's very theologically conservative, and they're writing all kinds of books and doing all. I'm just saying, where did that come from? Well, I think it comes to reflection of the hunger for truth and hunger for certainty in the best sense of the term. So, I would hope this church, 10 years from now, 25 years from now, however bigger it is or whatever it looks like when it's Sunday morning experience, is doing an even better job, a stronger job in discipling people and kids in truth. Because I think people are hungry for it.
Now, the challenge is, the devil is a great master, is the church has gotten a bad rap in a lot of things. So the church is, a lot of people are turned off by religion, and they're turned off by fundamentalism, they're turned off by politics and religion. All these things are true, but those are distractions really. And they haven't changed the truth of the gospel, the one I owe to, so we have some work to do, not just Browncroft, to help find ways to detach ourselves from these unhealthy relationships that sometimes we have. And lead with the truth of the gospel like Ted Jero said. Remember those great words if you were in church Sunday when he said something about, the simple gospel and being a city on a hill. So, I don't know that's what excites me. I think there's tremendous opportunity.
If I was, I keep joking about Nate Yoder, but if I was a young man and my head was screwed on straight, which I don't know that mine was when I was so young, I'd love to be a pastor. In other words, I'd say, it's a great job. It's a great opportunity to get into the ministry. Not that you have to be a minister, of course, to share the gospel, but I think I would be very energized by that.
I don't think the church is fading. I think that's a lot of baloney. That's been going on forever, that, with all these cultural changes, the church is going to become irrelevant. Listen, it's not going to become irrelevant, because the church is not Wegmans, it's not a consumer good, the church has the gospel. And the only churches that aren't going to be around are ones that aren't holding to the truth. And then they're going to go the way of mainline churches today, which many of them are empty and they're kept alive, not all, but by endowments, but there's not people there. But churches that have stuck to the truth, they're growing in this country and in this world, because there's a real hunger for that

Peter Englert: So two last questions, but this one comes out of, one of the things I really appreciate about you is you're a great student of God's word, but also just a student of culture. And I think one of the most powerful things you just said there was, the world that we live in right now is more anxious and hopeless. And even in your answer, you're one of the best people off the cuff. You're talking about this kind of relationship between truth and discipleship. But when we talk about discipleship, we're talking about, not just Sunday but what does your life look like following Jesus Monday through Friday? And I think the question I want to pose to you about the next 20 years, it's this question, not so much that people are asking is Christianity right or is it true? They're asking, does it work? So if you're sitting now with a 25-year-old who barely comes to church and they're like Rob, does Christianity work? What's your response to that?

Rob Cattalani: Well, of course, I believe 100% it does. And I'm trying to think of how I would best answer that. It depends on who I'm talking to. But I would certainly not try to sell it like Amway, it's just not what you're saying, but Amway works or CrossFit works. To me, it's fundamentally a different thing. I would say, friend, if you've ever been in love, everyone gets that metaphor, whether you're married for 20 years or you're a high school student, and I would say, and one of the greatest things in life even though relationships are hard as nails, but often it's the nature of life we're all sinners, but is to be in a relationship, and fall in love and maybe get married. And there's something profound about that, even though it happens every day. There's weddings every day. But in a sense, you'd say it's one of the most profound things, people that fall in love and get married.
And when I'm talking about, does Christianity work? I would say, that's what I'm talking about. It's about a personal relationship with someone. Yes, God is, you can't put your arms around him, but it's a personal relationship that will fundamentally, for me I would say if I'm talking to this friend, will remake you, renew you in every possible way. And you will come to know yourself and what your life is about through that relationship in a way that nothing else will.
So, I guess I would say, it's so much more than does it work? That's such a great American question. We're so pragmatic, does it work? Like you got a diet, and I know that you... But that's the way we do talk. But I guess I would try to reframe it to say, it's so much more than does it work? It's about radically changing your life from the inside out in the best ways, and coming really to know not only the meaning of life, but who am I, and in the context of a loving relationship. So I would say absolutely.
But as I said, even, I think, I wonder if I said it this past Sunday? I can't remember now, but Christianity, becoming a Christian, it's not like you're joining a gym, it's not like you're, marriage is perhaps the best metaphor, but even imperfect. People don't get married, or the vast majority of them, overnight, that's too big of a commitment. Because it's literally a radical change, I think all for the good, begins with the forgiveness of sins, and coming into a true relationship with reality. That's who Jesus is, in a sense, this is little philosophical-ish, but really Jesus Christ is the ultimate expression of reality. And when you and I come into context with true reality, it's a game changer.
And so, I think that's what people are hungering for. And they're so jaded because every other false reality that they're courting in life, and we could make a short list very quickly from religion to politics to all kinds of pleasures and addictions, they all disappoint. Because they turn out to be something that is not ultimately hold the weight of reality. But I think a relationship, a true relationship with God does. So, that's what I would say.

Peter Englert: Before we get to our last question, it reminds me, there's this worship leader named Jon Guerra who wrote a song called Citizens. And he talks about in knowing Jesus, we arrive as immigrants, we become citizens, and then he'll call us sons and daughters. And I just think that that's, with the marriage, that's such a powerful to go from that.

Rob Cattalani: That's good.

Peter Englert: Yeah. Hey, as we close, the great thing about you is, if we do bring up piracy we basically get fired, but-

Rob Cattalani: Right, and so it's true.

Peter Englert: ... I thought what was going to be his biggest surprise is, he's like, "Well, you too." And maybe not Nathan, but the question we always ask is, what does Jesus have to say about this topic? So Aaron and I will answer, and we'll let you close it out. So, you want to go first or?

Aaron Mercer: Sure. I really appreciate this conversation, Pastor Rob, I think it's a great one. I love that you brought up a lot of good points. And you also alluded, in the midst of your conversation, you were talking about Browncroft's 100 years and why that matters, but you also alluded to the fact that the church has a longer history than that.
Really, while we're celebrating something that I think is very important to celebrate, it's a drop in the bucket compared to 2,000 years of the church. And then many years beyond that, of God working, a millennia beyond that, and then eternity in general. So, it's good to know our place in the big scheme. And I think that's important to think about and reflect on. But I do, I think Jesus wants us to reflect on things and think about where he's brought us from and then to dream about where he wants us to go to.
Not just dream. I think you actually did talk about how we're trying to get to know a person. And a person who actually wants to have a relationship with us and who actually has a purpose for us and a plan and wants to reveal that to us. And I pray for Browncroft that we continue to follow that plan and to seek what the Lord wants us to do next. And in the midst of that, I know that we will make an impact on this community because Jesus is reality and he wants the whole community to know him. And that's, there's only good that can come from a sincere pursuit of that. That's my thought.

Peter Englert: I was thinking about Rob getting interviewed and I was trying to think where to go with this, and probably in my eight years here, one of the passages that's probably the top three that he's preached on the most is Acts 2:42-47. And basically the writer of that passage is talking about the church, how they're meeting together, they're reading the Bible, they're sharing with one another and living together, and why does Jesus care? Why would you care about these next 100 years? Because in a world where a savior could have come and they could have had a whole processional, and if Jesus coming today, maybe we would have thought he was the TikTok star, but he didn't come that way. He came and he invested three years and 12 disciples in quiet.
And there's not even enough stories in the gospels of what Jesus did. And you look at that story in Acts Two, and that's the church, which is this very gritty one-on-one relationship. And I think that came true here at Browncroft is, while we're doubting how the church makes a difference, in the midst of the deconstruction conversation, all the stuff that's going on, there's hundreds of churches and individuals that have been changed by Jesus that until the other side of eternity, were not going to see that change, but it's happening.
And I would just encourage any of our listeners, I think Jesus works in very subversive ways that we don't. And sometimes you have to really look to see some of the hugest impacts of the gospel in your neighborhoods, in your cities, where you live and in your schools. But I think the story of Browncroft is, is that God is the hero and God has been working. So, Rob, we'll let you close it out.

Rob Cattalani: Well, I would just say amen. When you say subversive, it made me think of the coronavirus, and what I've just read and some of you guys have read about, what God is doing. I think some of the greatest things have happened in the body of Christ from things that I've read. Even just, I was at least talking to Jarris, the guy who was visiting us, Pete, your friend and mine from Mariners church. And Mariners church, for those of you who don't know, a big church in California in Orange County, and they went through what everyone else went through, people not coming to church and the coronavirus. And California's like New York, it's a very serious regulated state kind of a thing. So they had even more shut down than some other states did like us. And what are they going to do?
Well, they started this thing, Jarris told me, where they were having people gather and just saying, "Well, those of you live in X, Y, and Z area, you just gather." And they would've maybe 40 people. So this church of thousands, and then now they're down to people that are gathering in 40 here and 40 there, and the pastors are just trying to do what they can. Well, that turns out to be, I think Jarris told me, five of those areas, and he named them, ticked them off, that are within X miles of Irvine, California, that were just these little group gatherings have turned into small little church plants. Santa Ana, Mission Viejo, et cetera. And that's the subversive nature of the kingdom, as you're saying. And maybe the church needed to get smaller to get better, not just Mariners, but Browncroft.
But in other words, one of the other downsides of the last, not just two years, but last many years, in the absence of true worship, authoritarianism is one thing that happens, we begin to worship politicians. The other ones is celebrities. That's not brand new, but we've lost our way. Not only the culture, of course, is celebrity-focused. When Time Magazine used to the 100 most important people, it used to be Einstein and FDR, now it's Lady Gaga, you know what I'm just saying? But the point has become not only so big in the world, it's in fact, the church. So, it's not all bad or all good, but the point is, the idea that these, we call them celebrity pastors.
And there's some sense that's okay, but really, it's a contradiction in terms. And you could you go down right on down the line. So I think even though the church is working through some of its troubles, like the Hill Song thing, it just happened, that's a sad thing. And we don't know all the story, but the point simply is, while those things are happening on some level, and some people could look at that and go, and what is that? That's just a big church that had some troubles in the media. And say, "There's the sign that the church is becoming irrelevant." I don't think so.
Because on the level of the subversive, which is what you just said, Pete, where God is doing amazing things, whether it's through the reinvention of the church, Mariners is a good example of that in the digital. I still meet people, even in little Browncroft here who, as a pastor, you're always wondering, where is so and so? Where is so and so? And I had a lot of those feelings over the last 24 months. So you write cards, you don't know, it's all anecdotal, and then I see people, I just saw a couple of this last Sunday and hugs and this, and mentioned sermons in the past. And then, "Oh, no, we're back now, but we haven't missed a beat." You know what I mean?
In other words, I'm just saying, so my point is technology has been used as well. That's my closing word. I think, I don't know what Browncroft is going to look like, and the church and Jesus Christ is going to look like, it might not look that different because probably 50 years ago they said, "Oh, people are going to get together and gather and sing the songs and listen to a sermon," but they're still doing that. But who knows? Maybe the church is going to look different, but I don't think it's going to be different at its core of what it's doing. And maybe what's old is new again. So, that's my closing thought.

Peter Englert: That's been Rob's slogan for like the past two years, what's old is new again. So there we go. Well, thank you so much for joining us, especially on this special Centennial. Rob, why don't you close us in prayer?

Rob Cattalani: Sure.

Peter Englert: I think that's probably the best way to close out this.

Rob Cattalani: Well, let's do it.

Peter Englert: Yeah.

Rob Cattalani: God and father, we thank you for just our church that we're talking about here in this hour, Browncroft Community church. I'm humbled to be a part of it with these men and many, many others that this church serves. And we just pray, Lord, for, we say tongue-in-cheek the next 100, and we do mean that. But even for the next one and next 10, as we really think about how you want to use this church to make disciples and to mobilize disciples here in this community.
And we just pray for our congregation, Lord, for even these five weeks or so, where we're thinking about what it means to be a disciple in terms of the past and future of our church. And I just pray your blessings, Lord, that you would, that truly, and we mean this, that the best days of this church would be ahead of us. That all of the great victories of the last 100 years are prelude to, Lord, things that you want to do that maybe couldn't be done, that the church in its heart and its soul was not ready to do, but you are ready to do it in this next season. So we ask for your blessing and we anticipate, Lord, your presence is with us in Jesus name. Amen.

Peter Englert: Thanks for joining us.