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The Value Creation Mindset explores the decisions successful leaders make to create real, lasting value for their customers, teams, and businesses.
Hosted by A.J. Singh, each episode features candid conversations with founders, CEOs, and builders who have been in the trenches, unpacking hard-earned lessons on leadership, technology, strategy, and execution. No hype. No shortcuts. Just clear thinking, first principles, and practical insight from people who have actually built things that work.
Jonathan Full Edit
[00:00:00] Speaker 3: What if homelessness is not always caused by a lack of support, but how difficult that support is to access? Hi, I'm AJ Singh. Welcome to the Value Creation Mindset. Today, I'm joined by Jonathan Kumar, the, uh, founder and head of outcomes at Samaritan. Jonathan's creating value on both sides of the equation, helping people move towards housing, income, and better health, while helping healthcare organizations reduce the overall cost of people falling through the cracks.
[00:00:38] Jonathan, welcome to the podcast.
[00:00:41]
[00:00:47] Speaker: Thank you. Great intro.
[00:00:51] Speaker 2: You know, um, when you first began spending time with people who were living out on the streets of Seattle, what'd you see that made you believe there had to be a better way?
[00:01:04] Speaker: Yeah, it was just the futility. I mean, here we are in such a resourced, privileged country, and we have people who feel their best option is to beg strangers for help, to live on the sidewalk, to live in these tent communities. And, you know, given the, the, the resources and the, the, the, the care and, and, and the capital we have as a s- as a society to work with, it just seemed like there existed the financial resources, the social support needed for people to reach their goals in life.
[00:01:42] And, and, and so it was just, for me, I wanted to find m- ways to get, get those resources, get that capital to people that needed it. And, and so it, yeah, was just talking to folks and seeing the barriers that they were experiencing, how they got to where they are, where they were trying to go, what was keeping them from getting there, um, that sort of inspired me to take a shot at, at, um, helping them access those things, um, that they needed to get there, to where they wanted to go.
[00:02:13] Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, it, your entire mission and, and the, the, the kinda origin story here, um, really speaks a certain empathy that's necessary, that's foundational to even make such a choice to, to move in such a direction. Um, now your parents arrived in the US as immigrants, and I understand they relied on the support of others around them, like many of us do.
[00:02:40] How did that experience shape your understanding of financial and social capital and ultimately any, you know, the, the
[00:02:51] A long time ago, I, I, I got into a debate with, uh, someone, um, uh, on a very innocent topic, religion. And we were chatting, and I, I made the contention that, you know, you don't necessarily need re- y- you don't necessarily need religion to be a moral person.
[00:03:12] Speaker: These two things are
[00:03:12] Speaker 2: not- Hmm ... tied together. And he couldn't understand it, and he asked me a simple question: "Well, you know, so, so Who taught you the difference between right and wrong?
[00:03:23] Mm. The answer is pretty simple. My parents.
[00:03:26] Speaker: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:26] Speaker 2: And then who taught them? Again, pretty simple answer is their parents. So- And so,
[00:03:30] Speaker: yeah ...
[00:03:31] Speaker 2: the, the, getting... I mean, we're all, whether we like it or not, we end up being more like our parents than we want to, right? For both good- Right ... and bad. Mm-hmm. Talk to me a little bit about how your parents' experiences, how your, how your experiences as a child when you were with them How that shaped your view, 'cause you got the empathy from somewhere, likely from your parents.
[00:03:56] So if you could talk a little bit more about that, that would be great.
[00:03:59] Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, very light topic that you had with your friend there and- Oh,
[00:04:03] Speaker 2: there you go.
[00:04:04] Speaker: Yeah. Very, very, uh, interested to hear where that, that conversation ended up going. And, but, but yeah, I mean, at a, at a very early age, uh, was taught by my parents, uh, that we are all cut from the same cloth, made in the same image, and, uh, that we are to, to take care of our neighbor.
[00:04:23] Um, you know, a lot of people of a lot of faith backgrounds share these values. Um, mine was, yeah, through, through, uh, the, the beliefs and the following of Jesus Christ. Um, and so, you know, it's still a very early age that, yeah, we are to take care of our neighbor. Who's our neighbor? It's anyone that's in need.
[00:04:36] And for, for a while, we, we were the people that were receiving, um, that type of support. And, uh, and so yeah, my folks, they were immigrants. My dad was a student. My mom wasn't working. I was at home, the three of us, you know, living on a, a student stipend of about $600 to $800 a month. And very quickly, we realized, um, just how important it was to be-- to have a community to be invested in.
[00:05:02] And so a group of people in, in, uh, Western New York and Buffalo sort of took us in and provided for us, yeah, financially, relationally, like you said, for, for five years, uh, while my dad was in school finishing up his graduate program. And, you know, without these folks, I don't know if we would've stayed here through the whole program, if we would've made it, or if we would've stayed after the program.
[00:05:23] Um, but because of them and, and, and the faith that they had been inspired with, um, as Christians, you know, we got to, got to succeed and, and stay here. And so fast-forward, you know, 25 years, I got to go to a great school and study design at the University of Michigan. Um, you know, design thinking is, is really put yourself in other people's shoes thinking and understand, you know, try and do what you can, empathize with people from different backgrounds, different experiences, and try to solve the things that they hate.
[00:05:52] And that's what design comes down to. And And so, so with that, with some of those principles that I was imparted and some of the experiences my family had, and then some of the studies, you know, all that sort of came together. Uh, after, after my degree, I started a company called Food Circles, uh, in Michigan.
[00:06:12] Oh. And then we moved out to Seattle in 2015. That company failed. And, and so, you know, I was like three or four years into this startup journey around, you know, developing, uh, products to solve problems and raising capital and, uh, living on a very small tight, tight budget and, and building teams and stuff.
[00:06:29] So I had that, and I had some of these experiences and some of these values, and all that sort of came together where I started noticing, um, you know, how pervasive homelessness was in, in Seattle. And, and just these different things that had happened in my life led me to want to better understand that user experience of, of being homeless.
[00:06:49] And I just started spending time with folks, um, on the street asking them again, "Yeah, like how'd you get here? Where are you trying to go? What do you feel you need to get there?" Uh, and, and, and just came to understand that these people didn't have what I received, what my parents received when coming into this country.
[00:07:07] And, and I sort of developed this hypothesis that if every one of these people had access to the same type of support that my parents had, that we had as immigrants in the late '80s, kind of different story now, um, that most of these individuals would materially shift their trajectory of their lives just like mine did.
[00:07:25] And so, um, again, I believe that that capital, that s- support existed, and it was just a m- matter of, of routing it to these people somehow, some way. And, and, and I wanted to do that at scale, so that's where technology sort of became a, a necessary method or evil, um, to, to utilize. And so yeah, I just started getting to work.
[00:07:43] This is like the summer of 2015 going into 2016.
[00:07:46] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Uh, it's the, the-- So this isn't your first venture in this area. You've, you've, um... Raising capital and living on a budget. Yeah, I know a little bit about that myself, so I, I get it. You know? It's the-
[00:08:05] Every entrepreneur deals with, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a bit of a dichotomy. On one side, you have to have supreme confidence in yourself and your idea, even when everybody else is telling you it's not gonna work. This will never work. What are you doing? And the other side is also the little tiny voice is saying, "Well, could they be right?
[00:08:26] Am I, am I screwing this up?" I mean, you know, so successful entrepreneurs, A, never give up, right? But B, also have to be reflective and adapt and adjust. And I'd like to find out, you know, what were some assumptions you had going into these, g- going, going into this space which- Mm ... which were disproven by reality, by more, by more experience, by, by talking with others, by trying to do this.
[00:08:57] But what, what were some f- of your initial assumptions which you had to throw out the window?
[00:09:04] Speaker: Hmm. Guess it were. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think the biggest one that had to get checked for me was- Oh If I could some, create something of value for this particular user, in this case individuals, mostly individuals and then some families that are, were experiencing homelessness, that the funding, the partners would sort of come, uh, sorry, rushing our way, um, rushing our way.
[00:09:31] I... If I could figure out the, the, the solution to solve pain points for, for the user, for the individual experiencing homelessness- Right ... you know, nonprofits, governments, healthcare, like, they would all be gung ho and get behind what we were doing, fund it, utilize it, grow it, so on and so forth. And, and that was a m- you know, major assumption that was proved false that it took us, it's taken us years to, to figure out how not to just solve for our end user, but to solve for our customer or implementing partners, um, in a way that would, y- you know, very e- like, very, uh, uh, s- quickly we had developed something that was a no-brainer for, uh, our user to use, right?
[00:10:13] It was like we developed this, this 12-month support membership where if someone was a member of Samaritanan, they were getting financial support from us. They were earning rewards by taking positive action steps. They were receiving words of encouragement from volunteers, people who have been in their shoes before.
[00:10:31] That, you know, very, like, no-brainer, absolutely sign me up, it's free. But- Yeah ... we also needed to find a way to get it paid for and funded and utilized by partners who had been in the space for decades. And, um, we needed to make it we, as much of a no-brainer for them as, as our end user. And I think that was assumption that I came in with, saying, like, "If we can solve for the end user, it's gonna be a no-brainer for everybody."
[00:10:56] And, um, that was something that needed to get broken and, and rebuilt over, over years.
[00:11:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's very, especially in, especially in the early days, the build it and they will come mindset is It's prevalent.
[00:11:11] Speaker: Um- Mm-hmm ...
[00:11:11] Speaker 2: and
[00:11:12] Speaker: it happens in the movies. I haven't yet happened-- I, I haven't yet s- seen it happen in reality.
[00:11:18] Uh, a
[00:11:19] Speaker 2: couple
[00:11:19] Speaker: of,
[00:11:20] Speaker 2: a couple of points here. You know, you were trained as a UX designer, is that right?
[00:11:26] Speaker: Yes, correct. Yeah.
[00:11:27] Speaker 2: UX design. And, and, uh, that's a part of my brain which is non-functional. I'm more of an architect. I, I, I can't even pick colors. But one of the key principles behind UX design is making-- is, is reducing friction all around.
[00:11:43] Speaker: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:43] Speaker 2: Yeah. Do, is it that you've brought that, you brought that mindset to the homeless population, and you're asking, "How could I reduce friction around these resources that exist?" Mm. The more friction that I can reduce considering them as users of or candidate users for, for existing, ex-existing services, if, if you can reduce friction, you can create more, more value.
[00:12:07] Am I understanding that right? Yeah.
[00:12:09] Speaker: Yeah, you sure are, and it works on multiple levels too, because, you know, we needed to get capital to these people, right? Both financial and social capital and, and that same principle existed where if you can reduce friction, then more will flow to these people. And so part of our work has been to reduce friction barriers, to dismantle assumptions around, um, just who our neighbors are, and, uh, to make it easier to invest into this population directly.
[00:12:38] Um, and so reducing fic-friction on the capital side to flow more resources to these folks has been a part for us. And, and then, yeah, um, your, your sort of prim-primary statement around reducing friction for people to access, um, forms of support is, is absolutely, you know, our main objective. When you're, when you're-- when you don't have a place to sleep at night, when you're exposed to the elements, to substances, to violence- It makes doing anything except meeting your very, very basic needs around warmth and food and survival very, very difficult, if not impossible.
[00:13:19] And those steps around getting enrolled into Medicaid and learning about the benefits that Medicaid offers you, or plugging into different community organizations that can offer peer recovery groups or job trainings or GED programs or, uh, like housing deposits. Um, all of these are critical for not just survival, but to get-- take steps towards flourishing, to thriving, to using your God-given gifts for the years that you have left.
[00:13:47] Um, and those types of things that are very, very much empowering, which are, which are power-building, are very, very difficult to access, again, when you're not sleeping, when you're not safe, when you're not-
[00:13:59] Speaker 2: Mm ... eating well, when you're
[00:14:00] Speaker: cold,
[00:14:01] Speaker 2: uh, when you have no clean clothes on your back.
[00:14:04] Speaker: And, and so what we have really focused on doing is, like, what are those bite-sized next steps that the person could take if they had the capacity to do so towards, uh, stable housing, stable income, stable health?
[00:14:19] And what can we do from a capital standpoint, um, to make those bite-sized steps just a little bit more possible, a little bit easier? Um, and I mean, again, more than just from a financial capital standpoint, but really a social support perspective as well. When people feel invested in, that's when we see them begin to invest in themselves.
[00:14:42] And, and so when you think about reducing friction, when people feel capitalized, uh, when they have, um, money to pay for bus fare or phone service or footwear, um, when they see that they're going to earn a reward for making it to their peer recovery group this week or their dialysis treatment today, and when they're receiving, um, messages of support from people who either have lived experience or just really care for the person, um, we see that make what seems like an impossible task, you know, difficult or a difficult task more, more achievable.
[00:15:18] Um- Sure ... and, and you see more of these action steps, a higher percentage, percentage of these action steps being taken, which over weeks and months lead to, you know, life-changing stability.
[00:15:29] Speaker 2: No, I, I, I get you. You know, the, the idea behind friction reduction kind of initially implies incrementalism, but what there's so much friction- you're fundamentally-- there's, there's no movement.
[00:15:44] It becomes more of a binary thing. You've got no movement to sound movement, and at least, at least helping people get onto a trajectory that, that will create more value for them and for society also. I mean, the, the... So
[00:16:02] The financial engineering piece of this, figuring out how can you make this a, a financial win, not just for the end recipients of- Like the- ... of either capital or services, but also those in the business of providing that. You know- Like the- ... it's, it's ultimately this is risk and reward. This is an investment sort of thing, right?
[00:16:28] I mean, we all invest in various things, both financially, but, you know, we learn pretty quickly that in business and in life, generally, the most important investment that you can make is in the relationships that matter to you. Relationships with your family, relationships with your friends, your partners, your users, your customers, your dog.
[00:16:51] All of these things are, are investments, and if you invest in them, you get a good return. I mean, th- that's another way of creating and measuring value, right? Yet from the financial side- You know, there, there needs to be an economic engine that will enable you to actually deliver tangible value to your end, to end, to your end users, whether that's measured Through end financial outcome, improved health, other metrics that- Yeah
[00:17:30] you might potentially measure value, right? Um, figuring that out, I, uh, well, fair question. Have you figured that out yet?
[00:17:38] Speaker: Yeah. It, it's a work in progress. There's, there's actually a lot of other bodies of work out there that shows the link between, let's, for example, housing and reduced costs or, or, uh, reduced, um, emergencies.
[00:17:51] When people are s- when they have a, a, a door, uh, to store and lock their belongings, a bathroom, a place to cook, a place to sleep, a place to charge their stuff on a, on a consistent basis, a place to recharge so they can go out and, and get their appointments done or, or tackle some, you know, increasingly challenging activities, um, yeah, it, it, it pays for itself.
[00:18:12] Um, both from government services standpoint, from healthcare services, um, there's a lot to show that housing pays for itself. And the, the, the ch- the challenge is, um, you know, housing is incredibly complex and in- incredibly expensive, and we haven't had the actuarial models to, um, pay for housing for everyone.
[00:18:33] Um, there are extreme cases where a person is expensive enough, quote unquote, where a hospital or a health insurer will just hand keys to an apartment and, and assign them a case manager because the staffing costs, the rent is cheaper than the person's cost of care. Um, but that's usually for dozens of people in a city, you know, when we have obviously hundreds and thousands of p- folks that are in need.
[00:18:57] Yeah. Um, so for everybody else, like, what are we gonna do? Um, we, we stand up programs, uh, you know, education programs, housing programs, uh, you know, benefits, and we hope that people take advantage of them. And, and when folks admit to the ER again or are found on the street or, you know, sleeping in a subway station, what are we gonna do for the hundreds and thousands of people that we can't just provide keys and a case manager to off the bat?
[00:19:20] Um, a lot of these programs exist and, you know, the, the cities are just hoping that, um, people will say yes to them and take advantage of them. And, uh, and so the, the, the challenge is that when you look at the utilization rate of some of these resources, some of these supports, some of these programs, it's just abysmally, abysmally?
[00:19:45] We'll just say very low. Um, and, and, and so, um, we have been able to prove that- Injecting financial support, social support into people's lives does help them, you know, ki- you know, significantly improve their participation rate in care. And that delta in terms of, um, you know, pre and post or, you know, intervention group versus comparative group, the, the, the difference in terms of seeing people participate in care when they're receiving investment from Samaritanan, um, we have been able to show that that difference, uh, is, is significantly worth the cost of our intervention.
[00:20:20] Um, meaning people are reaching life-changing stability at a greater rate and faster when they receive this additional financial and social support from Samaritanan. And it, um, it's, it's, it's paying for itself a couple times over actually in terms of, um, yes, just seeing more people reach stability, um, at a lower cost
[00:20:41] Speaker 2: Understood.
[00:20:41] Um, how are, how are your users gaining access to, to Samaritanans? Is it primarily through a mobile app, through various devices? How many- Yeah ... uh, how many homeless have smartphones through which they can get this, and the, a- and the service needed to actually access it?
[00:20:59] Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Great question. Um, most folks actually have a device at this point.
[00:21:03] The data plan access is, is a lot more variable, and people lose devices. They're not able to charge them, they break, they get rained on, they're stolen, stepped on. Um, it's-- So it's majority, but thankfully we don't require any technology access on the part of our, our end user or member. Um, we just give out these physical objects, and they've, they've changed over the years.
[00:21:22] We started with this Bluetooth low energy transmitter that, um, it was like a little key fob basically that we would give out to folks on the street and, uh, they would be able to walk within Bluetooth range of a case manager's device, and then the case manager could bring up their profile, you know, kind of look up their balance, help them spend that balance, uh, make edits to their profile and so forth.
[00:21:43] Um, that's how we started, and we sort of iterated from that into these, uh, NFC cards actually. So, you know, folks get this, uh, like wallet from, uh, our case management partners and on the car- uh, in the wallet is this member card. Mine's a little beat up, um, but it's just this, you know, fancy looking membership card and they can tap that on people's or, uh, nonprofits' devices and, you know, bring up their profile and balance that way.
[00:22:09] So they don't need any apps or, or devices. They just need this card. If it gets lost, we can replace it pretty easily. Uh, the distribution method, it's changed over the years. We, we would... We've gotten grants where, or contracts where we're just giving out memberships to, um, street outreach teams who use it on outreach to anyone that n- is in need.
[00:22:30] Um, primarily these days we'll partner with specific healthcare institutions that have a priority population that they're looking to serve. So it could be homeless veterans, it could be, um, single pregnant mothers, it could be, um, yeah, just, uh, uh, chronically unhoused, uh, individuals with chronic medical conditions.
[00:22:48] It could be young adults, foster young adults that are on the brink of homelessness, uh, people returning from incarceration. We basically hear about and develop relationships with healthcare groups that are prioritizing a specific population, and they w- they will license a set of Let's say 1,000 smart wallets from us for the year or for the month, and then their, their care teams or their care partners will use it as an engagement tool, as a critical resource in their own outreach and their own, um, like navigation work.
[00:23:22] That's how folks get is like, you know, an example like, um, a hospital will identify a target population who has been in the ER six-plus times in the last 12 months. And let's say if they fall in this category, um, we're gonna give them a card to Samaritanan on their way out. And the card is like, you know, you get $10 for signing up.
[00:23:41] You'll get another $10 if you complete your first action step, which is typically to make it from the hospital to a behavioral healthcare team or, or a case manager at a shelter, you know, complete that transition from hospital to, um, you know, outpatient behavioral health center and get established with them.
[00:23:59] Now you've got $20 and, you know, you're kind of on your way to receiving financial and social support from us for, yeah, up to 12 months
[00:24:08] Speaker 2: Amazing. I mean, how do, how do the, um... What's the right term? Clients, users- Members ... yeah,
[00:24:15] Speaker: yeah.
[00:24:15] Speaker 2: Members, members. How do members actually get access to any of those funds that are in their account?
[00:24:21] Speaker: Hmm. Yes, great question. So they're getting the card on their way out of the hospital, sometimes on the street, sometimes in a, a street medi- uh, from a street medicine team. Um, and the way that they use it, they can't necessarily just, like, take the card that you saw into, uh, Safeway or Walmart and, you know, this doesn't have a stripe or a chip or anything like that.
[00:24:41] So there's two ways that they can use the funds as, as they build it up or receive it. Um, number one, they can meet with any, uh, caregiver at a nonprofit that's, that's partnered with us, and those case managers have access to those funds and can order whatever the person needs most off of our platform.
[00:24:59] So Amazon, um, storage lockers, uh, bus fare, phone service, all of that can be just ordered off of our platform on, on behalf of the client, um, of their client or patient, let's say. And, and the second way, which is actually used the majority of the time n- these days, is the, the caregiver can transfer the funds from the, the Samaritanan member card onto an actual Samaritanan debit card that we recently rolled out.
[00:25:25] So they will sometimes receive a, you know, just a standard debit card, um, when they sign up. Sometimes they earn it a couple months into participation. Um, but they'll get the debit card, and then funds can be transferred onto there, and then that can be used online, in store, um, for, for most goods and services.
[00:25:43] Speaker 2: Hmm. Are you targeting any particular demographic of homeless? Are you prioritizing families or children or, or the elderly? Um, or really, are you leaving that up to your implementation partners that are out on the street?
[00:25:58] Speaker: Yeah, exactly the latter. I think my heart goes towards people who have been on the street for a year or more, or six months or more.
[00:26:05] I think we see the lowest success rate with this population, but we also see for these folks the most diff- difference, like the greatest delta for, for people that have been homeless for a year or more. Um, these are the people that are, they're gonna... Their life expectancy is 50 years old, 45, 55 years old.
[00:26:22] Um- Goodness ... versus, you know, mine is 75, maybe 80. Um, and so that's where personally I would love to see Samaritanan used more. But, uh, you know, we work with partners, um, that have a variety of sort of priority use cases, populations. Um, the general, the general, you know, common denominator is, you know, um, s- like severe poverty, so like bottom 10% income earners in, in America, almost always.
[00:26:48] Speaker 2: Mm.
[00:26:48] How do you How do you measure success on an, uh, on an individual me-- um, on an individual member basis? I, I imagine that your platform is keeping a detailed history of all of the interactions and whatnot. How do you capture positive outcomes, either in terms of health, in terms of employment, other kind of life e- uh, other life events?
[00:27:17] How do you capture that information? How do you weight any of those data points, uh- Mm-hmm ... in order, in order to prioritize and kind of optimize for the outcomes that mean the most to you?
[00:27:30] Speaker: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's, it's twofold. There are things that we're measuring i- in an individual level in terms of, um, what they're achieving, what they're reaching, and then there's the customer metrics.
[00:27:42] So, you know, when we, when we have a healthcare partner, they have ig- or, you know, a human services partner, they have metrics and outcomes that they're already trying like hell to reach and, and, and to exceed. And so on a human services angle, it might be like,
[00:27:56] Speaker 2: okay- So you're bolting into that already.
[00:27:57] You're trying to fit- Yeah. Yeah ... the existing infrastructure that's already there. But, um,
[00:28:03] Speaker: I imagine- Yeah ...
[00:28:05] Speaker 2: uh, i-i- is there a lot of customization you need to do based on each particular organization's priorities, or, or-
[00:28:14] Speaker: There's, there's a fair amount of common ground. Like, I love some of the metrics that we see from our human services partners, which is just like, "Hey, you know, what percentage of people we say yes to care?
[00:28:24] What percentage of those people who say yes do we get to that successful objective?" Whether it's graduating from a prog- a recovery program, or graduating, making it into, uh, some form of housing, um, getting their, their, uh, fir- like their full-time job, um, um, or n- not readmitting to the hospital in the next 30 days or six months.
[00:28:42] So there's another one that I really like, which is, um, like average interactions to successful placement. Like how many touchpoints do we need on average to get the average family or individual to that successful stability point? And, and so, you know, you're looking to say like, "Hey, when you use our, our support platform, we're driving down the average amount of interactions needed to, to see the average successful outcome."
[00:29:06] Or, or we're saying a higher percentage of people that say yes to care make it to that outcome. Um, so you know, more people are making it, or they're making it, and/or they're making it faster. So we're, yeah, definitely tying into kind of existing initiatives, priorities for health and human services. On our end, we also collect, uh, data on our members, just where they're at in terms of self-sufficiency.
[00:29:26] Arizona, uh, State of Arizona a long time ago put out this thing called the self-suff- self-sufficiency matrix-
[00:29:33] Speaker 2: Hmm ...
[00:29:33] Speaker: which, um, kind of roughly, uh, apportions self-sufficiency along maybe, like, 16 or 20 measures. And we, we take a foc- we look at three or four of them specifically, housing and income being the biggest two, and there are, like, these five benchmarks around, you know, what it means to be in crisis, what it means to be vulnerable, semi-stable, sufficient, and flourishing.
[00:30:00] And, you know, we get a sense of where a person is at when they start their membership, and then as they're taking these action steps over time, um, we're on a periodic basis reevaluating that definition of h- where are they at in terms of housing? Where are they at in terms of income? And we're able to see movement up the ladder from a one to a three or a two to a four, um, in terms of the self-sufficiency benchmarks.
[00:30:26] So there is some correlation between seeing people, um, stabilize their, their health conditions and take these action steps and climbing up the ladder in terms of self-sufficiency. That's, you know, my favorite thing is, is seeing people- Of course ... yeah, go from a one to a three or a two to a four, um, in, in terms of those outcomes, yeah.
[00:30:46] Speaker 2: Like, if you can provide us, um, a, uh, a link to, to that particular-
[00:30:53] Speaker: Yes ...
[00:30:53] Speaker 2: form. I would love to. Yeah. I'm gonna put that in the show notes.
[00:30:57] Speaker: Yes.
[00:30:57] Speaker 2: Uh, the, the-- I've gotta say that the unique position you are taking with your platform, I mean, you're- Providing a level of visibility and accountability, um, that has been, I imagine, largely missing.
[00:31:18] Because on one side you have various institutions that are dedicated to improving the lives of the homeless. You've got the homeless, you have the actual o- uh, you have the partners on the street, but there's always an open question: How efficiently are these dollars being used?
[00:31:39] Speaker: Mm.
[00:31:39] Speaker 2: Are we really creating value or not?
[00:31:41] 'Cause if you're not measuring it, how the heck do you, do you know? And I imagine- Mm ... th- there's no shortage of, um, money these days. There's no shortage of people willing to take your money. But being able to connect those dots and provide a greater sense of confidence that if anyone either makes a contribution, whether it's a charitable contribution or it's a tax contribution and it's a government agency, the real question is, great, if we can make an investment, a financial investment, either individually or as a society or as a populace, how do you know it's actually solving the problem?
[00:32:27] How do you know it's actually creating value rather than just giving you a warm fuzzy or feeling good? That's- Mm ... beside the point. Well, it's not beside the point, but ultimately creating and measuring value, which again, I, I, I, I really tend to spend an inordinate amount of my time thinking about, is- Yeah
[00:32:50] it's, is fundamental to think the best in all of us. But measuring that and actually driving accountability around the efficient deployment of that capital, I think is, is, it is one area that your platform has the opportunity to really shine because it's missing otherwise. Th- this, this whole industry is really fragmented, right?
[00:33:18] Speaker: Mm.
[00:33:18] Speaker 2: So how- How much is that kind of playing into your growth strategy? Because- Oh, yeah ... scaling a solution is, well, ask any entrepreneur. Scaling is the hard thing. You can build something, you can, you can grow it, you f- you can pour yourself into it, but then being able to truly scale it requires you to understand exactly how you're creating value, how you are delivering it, how it's being measured by everyone in the value chain.
[00:33:53] So- Hmm ... on that, on that, on that front- W- what are you doing in this area? What's your vision for the next several years to kind of scale this out and scale it up?
[00:34:05] Speaker: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that my-- our team, uh, they, they... I have pushed for the, the self-sufficiency matrix, um, integration in everything we've done over the last five years, and it's, it's awesome when we see it.
[00:34:18] But we also don't get paid for it, you know, AJ. Like our, our customers like to see that data, but that's not what they're necessarily paying for. We all wanna see it. We all wanna see people go from pe- in crisis to, you know, s- sufficient in terms of housing and income. But, you know, the metrics that they are getting their raises on or getting fired based on are not those.
[00:34:39] It's typically things-
[00:34:41] Speaker 2: So they're not aligned? They're not al- I mean, are they aligned at all or not really? Is it completely-
[00:34:44] Speaker: They're aligned, they're just, you know, they're, they're just... I guess the things that our customers are getting graded on, that's what we gotta help them with, right? Of course. And so unless they are using the self-sufficiency matrix and getting graded on that, you know, either penalized or, uh, they're seeing revenue based on increases there.
[00:35:03] Uh, like, we need to tie into what they are getting graded on, and those are often just different metrics, uh, than the self-sufficiency matrix, uh, that I, I personally
[00:35:12] Speaker 2: love. Well, I get it. I, I, I, um, yeah, maybe my view on this is a little naive. The-
[00:35:17] Speaker: No, yeah. So yeah, that's why we gotta get, like, a good understanding, like what, what helps our customers make money, what is causing our customers to lose money, and what is costing, costing them hours of their case manager time and, and, you know, what is their success rate, what is their...
[00:35:34] Yeah. So, so that's where we've had to learn. And like I said earlier, like, we've had to kind of break our assumptions around, um, we have to tie into what our partners are already looking to do versus being this pioneer and, and setting this new standard and so forth. No, no, no. You have to meet your partners where they are, and they already come- Mm-hmm
[00:35:50] with metrics that they're being driven and measured up. And then- Exactly ... it's your
[00:35:51] Speaker 2: job to
[00:36:00] provide that information. But at the end of the day- You have, you ha- you have, you have the ability to influence and kind of shape this in a different way as well, as long as you hit those, tho- those core metrics. Do you find different partners have drastically different measures of, of success?
[00:36:20] Speaker: Are you having to
[00:36:21] Speaker 2: customize the metrics that you are collecting and feeding back to individual partners?
[00:36:28] Speaker: Yeah. I mean, there are definitely different motivations. Some of it is cost, uh, like cost containment and cost reduction. Some of it is, is, uh, generating revenue. Um, and some of it is more around, uh, efficiency and ti- gaining time. I would say the majority is split between, uh, revenue achievement and, and cost savings.
[00:36:46] Um, you know, in, in our sort of field where we've grown. And, and coming back to your question on scale, it's like the reason I started Samaritanan was to deeply impact people without a home, but to do it at scale. If the scale piece wasn't there to deeply impact people without a home, I could've just become a case manager.
[00:37:01] You know, touch like 50, 50 people a month or a year. Um, but I knew how, or I got a sense for how widespread this problem was, so I was like, what can I do to, to deeply impact people without a home on the order of hundreds of thousands of people across the United States, starting in Seattle? And, and, you know, there's, there's a lot I wish I, uh, w- a lot more I wish I could've done, uh, that I, that I was able to achieve so far in Seattle.
[00:37:24] I think you're based there, and, you know, you probably hadn't heard about Samaritanan until just a couple of weeks ago, and that, you know, it's like, man, I wish we would've done more so you would've heard of us by now. And, but, you know, the story is not over. It's still being written, and, uh, I was, uh- Hope that it- We've got, we've got some...
[00:37:41] It just takes time, more time.
[00:37:43] Speaker 2: You're on a journey. Um- You're nowhere close to its end. So the-
[00:37:47] Speaker: Yeah ...
[00:37:48] Speaker 2: what I can certainly say is you're doing a hell of a lot more than most, so you should be proud of that. And
[00:37:56] Speaker: Yeah, that's not why I started Samaritanan and do more than most. Uh, but I really appreciate the encouragement and, you know, we just, we just-- I got a, got a h- heck of a team that, you know, I, I couldn't have asked for more.
[00:38:09] Um, and, you know, we're, we're, we're striving in a very, very challenging environment, um, where resources are being cut, innovation dollars are gone, people are being laid off in the safety net space. Um, and there is an opportunity, you know, for entrepreneurs, you know, right now the, the field of safety net healthcare, managed care, they're being squeezed and said, "You gotta do more with less," or, "You gotta do more- Sure
[00:38:33] with the same. Um, otherwise we're, you know, we're cutting ties, you know. Me, the federal government or state governments are saying this to, you know, hospitals, both nonprofit and for-profit, as well as managed care. And, and, and so there's an opportunity there 'cause, you know, managed care needs to find efficiencies fast.
[00:38:49] But there's also headwinds in that, uh, funding is being dramatically reduced, cut, um, and we're trying to grow our, our, our, our revenue, our partnerships to serve more people in light of that. Um, and so, you know, to scale, to reach hundreds of thousands of folks, you have to partner with organizations that are reaching hundreds of thousands of folks.
[00:39:08] And that, y- you know, companies like UnitedHealthcare, Elevance, uh, CommonSpirit Health, um, you know, King County, um, these types of partnerships take years to generate the predicate data and the relationships and the, the p- proof to earn that opportunity to reach hundreds of thousands of lives. So we're, we're, you know, we're in that adolescent stage, somewhere between zero and somewhere between 100.
[00:39:32] Um, and it's, it's a, it's a slow process that we think we're gonna win, uh, with enough time.
[00:39:38] Speaker 2: Well, I wish you all the luck with that. I think, um, you know- Making the choice to make a difference is, is, is something that we all do on a small personal scale. You've m- you've made that choice on a much larger scale.
[00:39:58] And, um Wish you all the best. I, I, I have two- Thank you ... two quick questions. Yeah. Where, where can our audience find you online? And what final thoughts do you wanna leave with our members, with our-
[00:40:16] Speaker: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, our website is Samaritanan.city, C-I-T-Y. Uh, the .com was taken. Um, so that's where we can be found.
[00:40:25] Uh, we are looking to serve more lives. We have the, the capacity to reach more people than we're currently serving. So yeah, if you're listening to this and you're in a city that, uh, we haven't served people in or, or that we're serving some folks but you wanna see more, um, definitely feel to re- feel free to reach out to, to, to me.
[00:40:43] My, my email is the letter J and then @Samaritanan.city. And, and, you know, I can, you know, connect with you and we can get, you know, right conversations started. Um, we're typically partnering with, yeah, um, counties, uh, hospitals, um, health plans, targeting folks that are, yeah, returning from incarceration or experiencing homelessness, are on the brink or threat of homelessness, young and old, kinda anywhere between age 18 to 80.
[00:41:11] Um, so yeah, and we wanna serve more lives. Uh, we'd love to talk to anyone about who's, who's serving this population about just helping them take better advantage of what's out there. There's actually a lot of resources for, for, for folks in need. It's just like, like we've said at the top of the show, so difficult to access that support- Mm-hmm
[00:41:29] when you're not sleeping and so forth. Um, and so if we can layer in and just make some of those next steps a little bit easier, a little bit more, you know, strengthen some of the incentives, some of the supports to help people take that action step every two days or every seven days, um, to lead to bigger outcomes, you know, we'd love to.
[00:41:48] Um, other things to, to leave, I mean- I, I'm really thankful to have been a part of this journey, uh, so far and, and, um, I would just say, like, I have found that doing what you love is overrated and it's, it's, it's more about solving what you hate and- Mm ... solving what other people hate, especially those that have-- that are marginalized, that are, that are less advantaged than, than maybe yourself.
[00:42:12] Um, so that's been a huge part of why my life has felt so rich, is being able to do that.
[00:42:19] Speaker 2: Well, well, thank you very much, Jonathan. It's a- Yep ... pleasure and, uh, we sh- we sh- we sh-
[00:42:24] Speaker: Oh, I should at least tell one... I should tell one story of a member before I leave. Please. Please do. Yeah. Oh, man. Uh, like, it's just so cool.
[00:42:33] I, I've gotten to, to meet hundreds of folks, thou- maybe a thousand folks on the street by now, and, and, and some of the first people, or some of my favorite, there was a guy, um, named Chuck who had been homeless in a wheelchair for three years-
[00:42:47] Speaker 2: Mm ...
[00:42:47] Speaker: and was not accessing services and, um, you know, just struggling with all kinds of health issues, ending up in the hospital, the ER all the time.
[00:42:56] He was actually our first Samaritanan member, and, uh, it's like August of 2027 or some- 20 tw- sorry, 2017. And, um, we, you know, he gets, he starts getting, like, this financial support, social support from our good Samaritanans, uh, uh, who are using the app to send money or encouragement. And he's, he's not using it in any specific way.
[00:43:15] I think you had asked a question earlier, like, how does the money get used? How is it efficient? I mean, it was going to soda, it was going to chips. Like, it wasn't going to anything significant. Um, but he would get these $5 bonuses e- for checking in with this case manager, this housing navigator, like once a week or once a month.
[00:43:31] And so he would do that, you know, to get a little bit more money for another soda or some more chips or whatever. He would go in and talk to this person, and it'd be pretty transactional to start. But like six months later, seven months later, it was like February of 2018, I didn't see him on his block where he normally was.
[00:43:47] And so I asked someone, like, "Oh, where's Chuck? Where's Charles?" And they're like, "Oh, you didn't hear? He got a house." And I was like, "What the heck? I, I had no idea. This is amazing." And, and they said like, yeah, the p- and, and, and, you know, the person that got him housed was that person at the, the MID, which was the nonprofit that we were basically supporting his ability to access.
[00:44:05] And I, I, I found that person, and the guy was like, "Yeah," like I, you know, the first five or four or five visits were pretty transactional, but essent- eventually we built enough of a rapport where he started to trust me. And I was able to help him get his housing voucher that he qualified for with his disability in a wheelchair, and a unit came open, um, in Seattle that was ADA accessible.
[00:44:31] And I asked him, like, "Would you be down to tour this with me?" And, and he said, "Why not?" And, you know, one thing led to another, and he was housed. And I saw him some months later, and he had, like, lost a bunch of weight. He had a prosthetic. He was... Oh, 'cause he had one of his, uh, legs amputated.
[00:44:48] Speaker 2: Mm.
[00:44:48] Speaker: Um, and he was walking around a little bit, and it was just am- amazing to see.
[00:44:53] And it's just, it's just like we're not doing much. We're not providing housing. We are just helping people like Charles And, and service providers build trust faster, which can lead to amazing things. Um, had another guy, John, who was a Vietnam vet, struggled with PTSD, addiction, homelessness for many years, gets a membership from Samaritanan.
[00:45:16] He starts receiving the, these messages of encouragement from our volunteers, from our peers, as well as some money. And he calls and he, he, he calls us and says, "Hey, turn my membership off. I'm not gonna need this anymore. I don't want it," or, or something like that. And he had, like, 130 bucks on his membership, he hadn't spent it.
[00:45:34] And so we thought, oh, maybe he, like, had a bad episode of something, forgot what this was, thought it was tracking him, something like that. And we're like, "Oh, sorry, sorry. We will turn it off." And, and we're like, "Why? What happened? What, what went wrong?" And he said, "No, you don't, you don't get it. Like, I am admitting myself into rehab for the first time, and this is the reason why.
[00:45:52] Like, the words of encouragement that people were sending me, I couldn't get them out of my head. And the fact that people thought I was worth investing in, uh, and giving money to, like, that makes me want to do this for myself, invest in, in, in myself." And, you know, yeah, we had to... We, he went off the grid for a couple months in rehab, and we had to give the $130, which he didn't even spend, to, you know, another member.
[00:46:17] Um, and so it, it's another, I guess, message for your audience, like, you know, your, your, your words matter. Noticing people matters. And y- you know, it's, it's, you know, me being in a position of privilege, like, it's easy for me to say that words of encouragement don't mean all that much. But when you are in the invisible, isolated, you know, s- looked down upon place like homelessness, like, it's, it's, uh, it's so easy to get discouraged and depressed and to, you know, push things off to the next day in terms of solutions.
[00:46:51] And, um, when you can lift someone up like that, it's, it's an amazing thing. So whether that's through the Samaritanan app or, you know, other means- Or any other means ... at a church or something, like yeah, yeah, just, just do it.
[00:47:01] Speaker 2: Uh, I totally get you. You know, the The basic frame for me, for as long as I can remember, has always been we're all the same and we're all connected.
[00:47:16] Whether we wanna be or not, that's a fact. And I think that brings a bit of humanity to the world that, uh, it needs. So thank you, Jonathan, for your time and for, and for sharing your, uh, story around, around Samaritanan. Um, wish you the best, and Godspeed. Yeah.
[00:47:39] Speaker: Thanks so much, AJ, for having me on. Appreciate you.
[00:47:42] Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Value Creation Mindset. I'm AJ Singh. If this episode helped you, please follow the show, leave a rating, and share it with one person who you think it will benefit. For show notes and more, visit modularis.com/podcast. See you next time