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Jeffrey Epstein [0:00]: The issue of complexity. What complexity says is that in fact, this everything seems to go along, and people have seen it. One of the great examples of complex systems is sand dunes.
Jeffrey Epstein [0:13]: In fact, the sand keeps building up. People have seen some... And all of a sudden, one more sand drop, and this thing start-- all the sand starts running down the hills.
Jeffrey Epstein [0:25]: That's the way I see the financial market.
Steve Bannon [0:26]: But you funded, uh, Santa Fe in the early nineties or late eighties?
Jeffrey Epstein [0:31]: I believe it was early nineties. I can get back to you.
Steve Bannon [0:33]: But, but early nineties, Santa Fe was funded for the study of complexity theory.
Jeffrey Epstein [0:39]: It was study... It was meth- So let's, let's back up. So why did I buy a ranch in New Mexico nineteen ninety-three?
Jeffrey Epstein [0:46]: So that's gives you some sense. So I would've funded it in nineteen ninety.
Jeffrey Epstein [0:50]: Uh, Los Alamos, which was the high energy lab up in, in New Mexico, was losing all its scientists.
Jeffrey Epstein [0:59]: And Los Alam-
Steve Bannon [1:00]: And Los Alamos was where Oppenheimer and where the, where the, a lot of the, uh, the nuclear weapons for the bomb, the original-
Jeffrey Epstein [1:05]: That's where the Manhattan Project.
Steve Bannon [1:07]: Manhattan Project was-
Jeffrey Epstein [1:08]: Yes. Yes.
Steve Bannon [1:08]: -at Lo-Los Alamos, and you bought your property out in New Mexico to be near that?
Jeffrey Epstein [1:12]: Yes, because the scientists were going to... They cut-
Mary Meyer [1:15]: Oh my gosh, this answers the question. We now know that Zorro Ranch, you know, they're covering up atrocities that there's no way around it.
Mary Meyer [1:27]: They can cover it up all they want. We already know that people were murdered there, they're buried there, that horrible probably experiments were going down there.
Mary Meyer [1:37]: So I was just looking at, um, how close he was to the, uh, Santa Fe Institute. But he's saying right now, uh, that no, the Manhattan Project, the Oppenheimers are losing their scientists.
Mary Meyer [1:49]: So we can... If he's looking for-- 'cause the Santa Fe Institute, it doesn't appear on paper or anything I've seen that they were just, that they knew anything that was going down.
Mary Meyer [2:03]: Um, which doesn't mean someone there doesn't and someone isn't, you know, involved in it. But it does not on paper, you know, saying it over and over, I haven't seen anything that would put culpability. But I hadn't...
Mary Meyer [2:15]: This is partly why I'm, I'm using time I will never get back to go into something that is not as news today sensationalized.
Mary Meyer [2:27]: I can't, I don't-- I'm like you guys. I don't have the cap-- I have to, I need to go make a living, you know.
Mary Meyer [2:31]: I don't have the capacity to do daily news and keep up with podcasts and do the positive stuff of this podcast also.
Mary Meyer [2:40]: So, okay. I almost wanna back up just a little bit, and let's hear this again.
Jeffrey Epstein [2:46]: Issue of complexity. What complexity says is that in fact, this everything seems to go along, and people have seen it. One-
Steve Bannon [2:53]: Santa Fe was funded for the study of complexity theory.
Jeffrey Epstein [2:57]: It was study... It was meth- So let's, let's back up. So why did I buy a ranch in New Mexico nineteen ninety-three?
Jeffrey Epstein [3:04]: So that's gives you some sense. So I would've funded it in nineteen ninety.
Jeffrey Epstein [3:09]: Uh, Los Alamos, which was the high energy lab up in, in New Mexico, was losing all its scientists.
Jeffrey Epstein [3:17]: And Los Alam-
Steve Bannon [3:19]: And Los Alamos was where Oppen-
Mary Meyer [3:20]: Los Alamos, the high energy science, was losing all of its scientists, and they're going into more here.
Steve Bannon [3:26]: Oppenheimer and where the, where the, a lot of the, uh, the nuclear weapons for the bomb, the original-
Jeffrey Epstein [3:30]: That's where the Manhattan Project.
Steve Bannon [3:31]: Manhattan Project was-
Jeffrey Epstein [3:33]: Yes. Yes.
Steve Bannon [3:33]: -at Lo-Los Alamos, and you bought your property out in New Mexico to be near that?
Jeffrey Epstein [3:37]: Yes, because the scientists were going to... They cut the funding for high energy physics.
Jeffrey Epstein [3:43]: But the people who worked in Los Alamos would still be in the Santa Fe area.
Steve Bannon [3:47]: They cut that because the end of the C-- this was the Cold War dividend, right?
Jeffrey Epstein [3:50]: I don't remember exactly why. It was because, again, people thought they would-
Mary Meyer [3:54]: So Epstein is interested in the scientist that makes weaponry.
Mary Meyer [4:00]: Oh, I just got even more sick. This is not something I had heard before.
Jeffrey Epstein [4:08]: 'Cause th-the physics and high energy physics really wasn't that important.
Steve Bannon [4:11]: Because that was about nuclear weapons.
Jeffrey Epstein [4:13]: No, it was because they were trying... They decided, which may be not right. This was the same time that Murray Gell-Mann came up with the term quark, Q-U-A-R-K.
Jeffrey Epstein [4:23]: He, he picked it out of a old poem, the word quark. But it was something, it was mysterious.
Jeffrey Epstein [4:29]: So they were starting to understand in the nineties that the, in the, our world of the physic world, there was things that were just unex-
Mary Meyer [4:37]: So when he says something, I'm just like, if it's on his mind to mention it, then we should look at it. So the quark.
Mary Meyer [4:44]: It's Google's AI. Quark, meaning science. Quarks are fundamental subatomic particles that serve as the basic building blocks of matter, combining into groups of three to form protons and neutrons in atomic nuclei.
Mary Meyer [5:00]: As elementary principles, they cannot be broken down further and possess fractional electric charges interacting via the strong force which binds them together.
Mary Meyer [5:11]: Um, should we watch this? Sure. It's only a minute.
Video Speaker [5:15]: All matter is composed of two types of fundamental particles, quarks and leptons.
Video Speaker [5:21]: Quarks are the building blocks of hadrons, the two best-known examples of which are protons and neutrons.
Video Speaker [5:29]: Hadrons that are made of three quarks, such as protons and neutrons, are known as baryons.
Video Speaker [5:35]: Hadrons that are made of two quarks, a quark and an antiquark pair, are called mesons.
Video Speaker [5:45]: Quarks come in six flavors, in increasing order of mass, up, down, charm, strange, top, and bottom.
Video Speaker [5:54]: And they also come in three colors, red, green, and blue. Now, obviouslyThese are just cute names that physicists have come up with.
Video Speaker [6:04]: Quarks aren't colored in the normal sense, but in the theory of quantum chromodynamics, the theory that describes the action of the strong force, they do have different types of color charge, which affects how they interact via the strong force.
Video Speaker [6:20]: The flavors of quarks, on the other hand, refer to their weak charges and so govern how they interact via the weak force.
Video Speaker [6:30]: Quarks are the only elementary particles in the standard model of particle physics that can experience all four fundamental forces, electromagnetism, gravitation, the strong force, and the weak force. They're also the only known particles whose electric charges aren't integer multiples of the elementary charge.
Video Speaker [6:54]: Up, charm, and top quarks have an electric charge of plus two-thirds, and down, strange, and bottom quarks of minus one-third in units where the charge of the proton is one.
Video Speaker [7:08]: A proton is made of two up qua-
Mary Meyer [7:11]: Okay, I can't handle anymore. Y'all go look at quarks. Whoo.
Mary Meyer [7:17]: Okay, we're also, since I'm still sharing this, I'm gonna do a Google search, uh, for, um, what did, what did Jim Carrey call it?
Mary Meyer [7:28]: Um, cluster of tetrahedrons meaning.
Mary Meyer [7:36]: All right, can you guys see this? Okay. So this was the other thing that did come up in the Epstein files. Cluster of tetrahedrons refer to groups. Look right there. You can see, I think Jim Carrey gets it. There are clusters of tetrahedrons. Okay.
Mary Meyer [7:51]: Uh, clusters of tetrahedrons refer to grouping of three D triangular pyramids often representing efficient dense packing in physical materials or sacred geometry, such as a sixty-four tetrahedron grid. They symbolize fundamental structural units in nature, material science, and spiritual philosophy, representing self-assembly, stability, and interconnected energetic or holographic reality.
Mary Meyer [8:21]: So the reason this is...
Mary Meyer [8:25]: What this really is, is proof of the mad scientist stuff that Epstein is involved in.
Mary Meyer [8:35]: He's very interested in mad science stuff.
Mary Meyer [8:45]: Um, I'm gonna have a bit of a hard time just taking in that he's, um, part of, you know, brought on scientists that were working on nuclear weapons, so.
Mary Meyer [9:02]: The Manhattan Project and Oppenheimer type stuff.
Mary Meyer [9:06]: So it was enough to know that he was also doing this other stuff.
Mary Meyer [9:11]: Um, you might need more wine. I'm gonna get some.
Mary Meyer [9:16]: This, I'm gonna drink with you, okay? Okay.
Mary Meyer [9:20]: Here we go. Let's go back a little bit.
Steve Bannon [9:26]: I can get that. But, but early nineties, Santa Fe was funded for the study of complexity theory.
Jeffrey Epstein [9:34]: It was study, it was math... So let's, let's back up. So why did I buy a ranch in New Mexico nineteen ninety-three? So that gives you some sense. So I would've funded it in nineteen ninety.
Jeffrey Epstein [9:45]: Uh, Los Alamos, which was the high energy lab up in, in New Mexico, was losing all its scientists.
Steve Bannon [9:54]: And Los Alamos was where Oppenheimer and where the, where the, a lot of the, uh, the nuclear weapons were and the bomb.
Jeffrey Epstein [10:00]: That's where the Manhattan Project.
Steve Bannon [10:01]: Manhattan Project was-
Jeffrey Epstein [10:02]: Yes. Yes, sir
Steve Bannon [10:03]: ... at La, Los Alamos, and you bought your property out in New Mexico to be near that?
Jeffrey Epstein [10:06]: Yes, because the scientists were going to... They cut the funding for high energy physics, but the people who worked in Los Alamos would still be in the Santa Fe area.
Steve Bannon [10:16]: They cut that because the end of the... This was the Cold War dividend, right?
Jeffrey Epstein [10:20]: I don't remember exactly why. It was because again, people thought there was, it, physics and high energy physics really wasn't that important.
Steve Bannon [10:26]: Because that was about nuclear weapons.
Jeffrey Epstein [10:29]: No, it was because they were trying... They decided it was maybe not right. This was the same time that Murray Gell-Mann came up with the term quark, Q-U-A-R-K.
Mary Meyer [10:38]: Which we just looked at.
Jeffrey Epstein [10:39]: He, he picked it out of a old poem, the word quark. But it was something, it was mysterious.
Jeffrey Epstein [10:45]: So they were starting to understand in the nineties that the, in the, our world of the physic world, there was things that were just unexplainable.
Jeffrey Epstein [10:54]: They called it strange things. You gave it a name, you gave it some characteristics.
Jeffrey Epstein [10:58]: You called it, it had charm, is what it-
Mary Meyer [11:00]: Like stranger things
Jeffrey Epstein [11:01]: ... it had charm, it had a flavor, it had a color. But-
Mary Meyer [11:04]: We just heard that
Jeffrey Epstein [11:05]: ... nobody really... No one then understood what it was.
Mary Meyer [11:10]: Which we don't either. I don't.
Jeffrey Epstein [11:11]: Just like the financial system.
Steve Bannon [11:13]: And you wanted to investigate that?
Jeffrey Epstein [11:15]: I, I wanted to see if we could build tools so others smarter than me could help investigate it.
Steve Bannon [11:20]: And that was the beginning of your concept of the Santa Fe Institute?
Jeffrey Epstein [11:23]: Yes.
Steve Bannon [11:24]: And Santa Fe Institute was founded to do study in this type of-
Jeffrey Epstein [11:28]: Can you, can these areas of strange things be described by some form of mathematics?
Steve Bannon [11:38]: So that's what I'm trying to get at. The, the, the, the f- the foundational thought, the organizing principle of Santa Fe-
Jeffrey Epstein [11:44]: Yes
Steve Bannon [11:44]: ... in the, in the high physics lab at, um, at, uh, Los Alamos-
Jeffrey Epstein [11:49]: Right
Steve Bannon [11:50]: ... which had created the, been the, the headquarters of Manhattan and the Trinity Project, right? The bomb.
Jeffrey Epstein [11:54]: Yes.
Steve Bannon [11:54]: So you're talking about the, the elite, the high priest-
Jeffrey Epstein [11:57]: Of physics
Steve Bannon [11:58]: ... of physics.
Jeffrey Epstein [11:59]: Yes, sir.
Steve Bannon 11:59]: Which, uh, high priests of physics, some subset of that is also mathematics, isn't it?
Jeffrey Epstein [12:04]: Yes. They're both similar.
Steve Bannon [12:06]: For Jacked Out, one of the tools you wanna do is to make sure that in this complex system, the finance system, I'm doing a lot of this for philanthropy and a lot for the good of mankind, but also to be able to understand-
Steve Bannon [12:17]: Yes
Steve Bannon [12:17]: ... this complex system, the most complex outside of maybe our body, uh, of, of the financial world.
Jeffrey Epstein [12:23]: Yes.
Interviewer [12:24]: Did they create tools or were you a-- were you smarter in than the mid-aughts fifteen years later than you had been then because of work that was done at Santa Fe?
Jeffrey Epstein [12:35]: No. That was-- it was great. But in fact, most of the money-- most of my philanthropy in the area of can you describe things that appear to be unexplainable by mathematics, and can, can you fund people who have new ideas?
Mary Meyer [12:53]: Can you explain things that seem to be unexplainable through mathematics?
Mary Meyer [13:04]: Can you explain things that seem to be unexplainable through mathematics?
Mary Meyer [13:10]: This phrase actually in and of itself might be an explanation for so many odd things that we're seeing going on in the world right now.
Jeffrey Epstein [13:18]: And unfortunately, when someone thinks they've been able to-- There was a man, Stuart Kauffman. When they think they, "Okay, I figured out how to be able to predict the unpredictable, what appears to other people to be unpredictable." But my system in those days was-
Mary Meyer [13:33]: Okay, I really wanna hear this name 'cause whatever the name is, we gotta look it up.
Interviewer [13:38]: Organizing principle of Santa Fe-
Jeffrey Epstein [13:41]: Yes
Interviewer [13:41]: ... and, and the high physics lab at, um, at, uh, Los Alamos-
Jeffrey Epstein [13:46]: Right
Interviewer [13:46]: ... which had created the-- been the, the headquarters of Manhattan and the Trinity Project, right? The bomb.
Jeffrey Epstein [13:51]: Yes.
Interviewer [13:51]: So you're talking about the, the elite, the high priest-
Jeffrey Epstein [13:54]: Of physics
Interviewer [13:55]: ... of physics.
Jeffrey Epstein [13:55]: Yes, sir.
Interviewer [13:56]: Which-
Mary Meyer [13:56]: Okay, the high priest of physics. The high priest of physics. The high priest of physics.
Interviewer [14:03]: Uh, the high priest of physics, some subset of that is also mathematics. Isn't that-
Jeffrey Epstein [14:07]: Yes. They're both similar.
Mary Meyer [14:09]: The high-- He's just like, "Oh, yes, that's, that's similar." The high priest of physics is also mathematics.
Mary Meyer [14:18]: Um, the high-- I'm, I'm literally gonna go look up the high priest of physics.
Mary Meyer [14:29]: Okay, so it's showing me the guy who, uh, George Lemaitre, who, who is widely recognized as the priest who invented the Big Bang theory. Okay, I think he mentions him, right?
Interviewer [14:43]: For Jacked Out, one of the tools you wanna do is to make sure that in this complex system, the finance system, I'm doing a lot of this for philanthropy and a lot for the good of mankind, but also to be able to understand-
Mary Meyer [14:53]: No, he's not
Interviewer [14:54]: ... this complex system-
Mary Meyer [14:55]: Cheers
Interviewer [14:55]: ... the most complex outside of maybe our body, uh, of, of the financial world.
Jeffrey Epstein [15:00]: Yes.
Interviewer [15:01]: Did they create tools or were you a-- were you smarter in than the mid-aughts fifteen years later than you had been then because of work that was done at Santa Fe?
Jeffrey Epstein [15:13]: No. That was-- it was great. But in fact, most of the money-- most of my philanthropy in the area of can you describe things that appear to be unexplainable by mathematics, and can, can you fund people who have new ideas?
Jeffrey Epstein [15:30]: And unfortunately, when someone thinks they've been able to-- There was a man, Stuart Kauffman. When they think they, "Okay, I figure-
Mary Meyer [15:38]: Stuart Kauffman. No, Stuart Kauffman.
Mary Meyer [15:43]: K-A-U-F-F-M-A-N. Also, keep in mind that there are documents saying that, um, Epstein actually submitted articles for Wikipedia, so his work is also on Wikipedia.
Mary Meyer [15:58]: Uh, just like, you know, the guy who founded Google is part of the gang.
Mary Meyer [16:02]: So everything with a grain of salt. I say Stuart Alan Kauffman, born in nineteen thirty-nine, is American medical doctor, theoretical biologist, and complex system researcher who studies the origin of life and Earth.
Mary Meyer [16:19]: He was a professor at University of Chicago, Pennsylvania, Calgary, currently emeritus professor of biochemistry at the University of Pennsylvania, an affiliate, an affiliate, um, fa-faculty of Institute for Systems Biology, Biology.
Mary Meyer [16:34]: He has a number of awards, a MacArthur Fellowship and Wigner Medal.
Mary Meyer [16:40]: He is best known for arguing the complexity of our biological systems and organisms might result, as such, from self-organization and far from equilibrium dynamics as from Darwinian natural selection, as discussed in his book Origins of Order in nineteen ninety-three.
Mary Meyer [17:01]: Okay. So has, uh, has become known through his association with the Santa Fe Institute, a nonprofit research institute dedicated to the study of complex systems, where he was a faculty from nineteen eighty-six to nineteen ninety-seven. Through his work on models in various areas of biology, these included autocatalytic sets in origin of life, uh, gene regulatory networks in developmental biology, and fitness landscapes in evolutionary biology.
Mary Meyer [17:30]: With Marc Dolovet, can look up that name, Kauffman holds a found-founding board of biotechnology patents in combinatorial chemistry, combinatorial chemistry, and applied molecular evolution, first issued in France in nineteen eighty-seven, in England in nineteen eighty-nine, and later in North America.
Mary Meyer [17:51]: Oh, you can go look at that more if you want to.
Mary Meyer [17:59]: So he went to Calgary. Okay. Let's just look it up fast, see if this guy is in the files.Copy. This is EFTA02412902.
Mary Meyer [18:17]: Barnaby Mars to Jeffrey Epstein, uh, April 17th, 2009.
Mary Meyer [18:22]: The smart-- The subject is the Smart People Symposium. Again, just 'cause people are on the list of the Smart People Symposium, not...
Mary Meyer [18:29]: You can't just assume that all of the scientists were part of the, you know, the vacation with children.
Mary Meyer [18:38]: Uh, but they are on the list of things that Epstein was interested in scientifically, which is also very extremely concerning.
Mary Meyer [18:48]: So, uh, Jeffrey Epstein will fund this. Needs to be in West Palm Beach, a place he can go. Jeffrey Epstein, can your office handle all logistics for the area? Preliminary list. Please send me all your ideas and names.
Mary Meyer [18:58]: Stuart Kauffman is number one. George Pond and anyone else we could find who is into membrane computing.
Mary Meyer [19:04]: Uh, John Capiopo, Casiapo, uh, Howard Nusbaum, Colin Camera, Jim Heckman, Steven Rose, Peter Thiel, misspelling Peter Thiel, David Sloan Wilson, Seth Lloyd, Terry Deacon. I think we know who drank the Kool-Aid.
Mary Meyer [19:21]: Interdisciplinary mix. Let's consider getting fifty folks, maybe run it as a Foo style thing.
Mary Meyer [19:28]: Which who knows what a-- I don't know what a Foo style thing is. I will see if Sarah/O'Reilly, Sarah or O'Reilly can help with that, what it would cost.
Mary Meyer [19:37]: We could even go up to eighty to a hundred if we did that. Separately, Jeffrey Epstein, are you interested in something on risk?
Mary Meyer [19:43]: What makes people take it, et cetera? Dan Ariely style with Dan, if he's into it.
Mary Meyer [19:51]: Okay. Um, I imagine somewhere in here is also gonna be Epstein's answer, so let's just look for another second.
Mary Meyer [20:01]: Um, Stuart Kauffman, Melissa Kauf-- Melissa Ka-- Robert Kauffman, Robert Kauffman.
Mary Meyer [20:07]: And here's another one, Stuart Kauffman.
Mary Meyer [20:11]: This is, um, two. So make sure you can see this.
Mary Meyer [20:17]: This is, uh, EFTA00899585.
Mary Meyer [20:22]: Sunday, December fifth, two thousand and ten. Jeffrey Epstein to Lauren Krauss. Subject is FYI.
Mary Meyer [20:30]: I've just looked into Tempe. Below are the people coming and their topics.
Mary Meyer [20:34]: So this seems to be a different, um, event. Paul Davies, cosmological director-- directionality principles.
Mary Meyer [20:42]: Eric Chiasson, using complexity science to search for unity in the natural sciences.
Mary Meyer [20:47]: Charles Lineweaver, a simple treatment of complexity, cosmological entropic boundary conditions on an increasing complexity.
Mary Meyer [20:54]: Simon Conway Morris, life, the final frontier for complexity.
Mary Meyer [20:58]: Marcelo Gleiser, emergent sapi-- saptio temporal complexity in field theory. Eric Smith, the interaction of diversity and transcendence with universality and the complexity of the biosphere.
Mary Meyer [21:14]: Lord. David Crocker, eni-enigmas in the evolution of biological complexity.
Mary Meyer [21:19]: William Wimsatt, the evolution of complexity, mechanisms, and questions. Stuart Kauffman, complexity theory, normal science and frontiers, classical and quantum.
Mary Meyer [21:28]: Philip Clayton, why theories of complexity are too simple on the relative independence of complexity producing systems.
Mary Meyer [21:35]: David Wolpert, increase of self dissimilarity, information theory, and the increase of complexity with time.
Mary Meyer [21:43]: Stephen Wolfram, question mark. FYI, I'm attending as an invited guest, and they have told me that it is closed, and I can't bring another guest to the symposium. I'm guessing that there is probably more to the story than they are telling me, but I figure that I would just take the hint.
Mary Meyer [21:57]: Who knows what's going on, and I'm too busy to figure it out. However, they were very gracious about it and said that if you are in town to please join the evening program as a special guest with the entire group, Saturday seven, I don't know, AM or PM.
Mary Meyer [22:11]: Why would that be blacked out? Until late. For cocktails, dinners, and discussions of new ideas.
Mary Meyer [22:16]: Up to you if it is worth your while, but it will probably be the place to have the most lively discussion anyway, and I am very much hope that you will be able to come.
Mary Meyer [22:26]: That's so weird. The thing that's blocked out is the PM. Maybe. Probably.
Mary Meyer [22:31]: The venue is Hou-House of Tricks, one fourteen East Seventh Street, Tempe, Arizona, www.hou. Okay, so that's another, uh, file.
Mary Meyer [22:46]: Uh, Epstein says, "Don't know who this is from, but if you want to attend the damn thing, you can attend with me. I am giving this summary, quote, concluding talk.
Mary Meyer [22:57]: You won't find my name on the list because I forbade Templeton from using it. So let me know, and I will ensure that you are there with me in London today and tomorrow." Interesting. So Jeffrey Epstein is saying, uh, he's emailing with Lawrence Krauss that he doesn't know who the information is from on this, but he's actually speaking at it.
Mary Meyer [23:22]: So, okay. I think we're gonna just stop there with that part and go back to what he's saying.
Mary Meyer [23:33]: Go back a little bit.
Jeffrey Epstein [23:34]: And then they all wanna make money. So they use their systems to try to figure out...
Jeffrey Epstein [23:40]: They know they have figured out the way to make money because they figured out the unexplainable.
Jeffrey Epstein [23:45]: They try, they go bankrupt, and we start again. So in-- with a cold view, what I've come to realize is that the, the attempt to mathematize, formularize, or what in your prior work to understand what really is in today's world still unexplainable is impossible.
Jeffrey Epstein [24:07]: They're miracles.
Interviewer [24:10]: The, um, your first head of Santa Fe was Christopher-
Jeffrey Epstein [24:15]: Langdon, I think
Interviewer [24:15]: ... Langdon from, from Australia.
Jeffrey Epstein [24:16]: But Murray Gell-Mann was really-
Interviewer [24:17]: Murray Gell-Mann was-
Jeffrey Epstein [24:18]: The funder. He was, he was the, the s- the rock.
Interviewer [24:21]: Yes. Yes, he was the rock. Um, he was-
Mary Meyer [24:23]: You just gotta go back
Jeffrey Epstein [24:24]: ... they cut the funding for high energy physics, but the people who worked in Los Alamos would still be in the Santa Fe area.
Interviewer [24:32]: They cut that because the end of the c- this was the Cold War dividend, right?
Mary Meyer [24:35]: So scientists from Los Alamos, he's very interested in, so let's not lose that and look into it later. The Al- the scientists from Los Alamos that were working on the nuclear weapons, the Manhattan Project.
Jeffrey Epstein [24:49]: I don't remember exactly why. It was because, again, people thought there was, th-that physics and high energy physics really wasn't that important.
Interviewer [24:56]: Because that was about nuclear weapons.
Jeffrey Epstein [24:58]: No, it was because they were trying... They'd decided it was maybe not right. This was the same time that Murray Gell-Mann came up with the term quark, Q-U-A-R-K.
Jeffrey Epstein [25:08]: He, he picked it out of a old poem, the word quark. But it was something, it was mysterious.
Jeffrey Epstein [25:14]: So they were starting to-
Mary Meyer [25:15]: Murray
Jeffrey Epstein [25:15]: ... understand in the '90s that the, in the, our world of, the physic world-
Mary Meyer [25:20]: I won't look into it right now, but Murray Gell-Mann, Murray Gell-Mann, Murray Gell-Mann. If he says something, we gotta look at it
Jeffrey Epstein [25:26]: ... there was things that were just unexplainable. F- they called it strange things. You gave it a name, you gave it some characteristics.
Mary Meyer [25:34]: Stranger things
Jeffrey Epstein [25:34]: ... they called it, it had charm, was one of the term. It had a charm, it had a flavor, it had a color.
Jeffrey Epstein [25:40]: But nobody really, no one, Mr. Bannon, understood what it was, just like the financial system.
Interviewer [25:48]: And you wanted to investigate that?
Jeffrey Epstein [25:50]: I, I wanted to see if we could build tools so others smarter than me could help investigate it.
Interviewer [25:56]: And that was the beginning of your concept of the Santa Fe Institute?
Jeffrey Epstein [25:59]: Yes.
Interviewer [25:59]: And Santa Fe Institute was founded to do study in this type of-
Jeffrey Epstein [26:04]: Of can you, can these areas of strange things be described by some form of mathematics?
Interviewer [26:13]: So that's what I'm trying to get at. The, the, the, the f- the foundational thought, the organizing principle of Santa Fe-
Jeffrey Epstein [26:20]: Yes
Interviewer [26:20]: ... and, and the high physics lab at, um, at, uh, Los Alamos-
Jeffrey Epstein [26:25]: Right
Interviewer [26:25]: ... which had created the, been the, the headquarters of Manhattan and the Trinity Project, right, the bomb.
Jeffrey Epstein [26:30]: Yes.
Interviewer [26:30]: So you're talking about the, the elite, the high priest-
Jeffrey Epstein [26:33]: Of physics
Interviewer [26:34]: ... of physics.
Jeffrey Epstein [26:34]: Yes, sir.
Interviewer [26:35]: Which, uh, high priest of physics, some subset of that is also mathematics, isn't it?
Jeffrey Epstein [26:39]: Yes. They're both similar.
Interviewer [26:41]: Project out, one of the tools you wanna do is to make sure that in this complex system, the finance system, I'm doing a lot of this for philanthropy and a lot for the good of mankind, but also to be able to understand this complex system, the most complex outside of maybe our body, uh, of, of the financial world.
Jeffrey Epstein [26:59]: Yes.
Interviewer [26:59]: Did they create tools or were you a, were you smarter in than the mid-aughts 15 years later than you had been then because of work that was done at Santa Fe?
Jeffrey Epstein [27:11]: No. That was... It was great. But in fact, most of the money, most of my philanthropy in the area of can you describe things that appear to be unexplainable by mathematics and can, can you fund people who have new ideas?
Jeffrey Epstein [27:28]: And unfortunately, when someone thinks they've been able to... There was a man, Stuart Kauffman. When they think they, "Okay, I figured out how to be able to predict the unpredictable, what appears to other people to be unpredictable, but my system," in those days it was called genetic algorithms, "can predict the f- what things will happen," then they all wanna make money.
Jeffrey Epstein [27:49]: So they use their systems to try to figure out, they know they have-
Mary Meyer [27:55]: Genetic, what did he say? Genetic algorithms, and they all wanna use their systems to make money?
Jeffrey Epstein [28:03]: Yes.
Interviewer [28:04]: Did they create tools or were you a, were you smarter in-
Mary Meyer [28:07]: I, I have to go back. This is so much science
Interviewer [28:09]: ... than the mid-aughts 15 years later-
Mary Meyer [28:11]: I don't know. What are mid-aughts?
Interviewer [28:13]: ... than you had been then-
Mary Meyer [28:13]: That's the other thing. I don't even know how to spell that
Interviewer [28:14]: ... because of work that was done at Santa Fe?
Jeffrey Epstein [28:15]: No. That was... It was great. But in fact, most of the money, most of my philanthropy in the area of can you describe things that appear to be unexplainable-
Mary Meyer [28:27]: Can you describe things that appear to be unexplainable-
Jeffrey Epstein [28:29]: ... by mathematics
Mary Meyer [28:29]: ... through mathematics?
Jeffrey Epstein [28:30]: And can, can you fund people who have new ideas?
Mary Meyer [28:32]: Can you fund people who have new ideas?
Jeffrey Epstein [28:33]: And unfortunately, when someone thinks they've been able to... There was a man, Stuart Kauffman. When they think they, "Okay, I figured out how to be able to predict the unpredictable, what appears to other people to be unpredictable, but my system," in those days it was called genetic algorithms-
Mary Meyer [28:51]: Genetic algorithms, how to predict the unpredictable. Genetic algorithms, how to predict the unpredictable.
Mary Meyer [28:59]: This is the Stuart Kauffman guy
Jeffrey Epstein [29:00]: ... can predict the f- what things will happen, then they all wanna make money. So they use their systems to try to figure out, they know they have figured out the way to make money because they figured out the unexplainable.
Jeffrey Epstein [29:13]: They try, they go bankrupt, and you start again.
Mary Meyer [29:16]: So they come up with a system where they can figure out the un- unfor- you know, no one can figure it out, and they try to make money at it, and then they go bankrupt, and then they have to start again.
Jeffrey Epstein [29:28]: So in, with a cold view, what I've come to realize is that the, the attempt to mathematize, formularize, or what in your prior work, to understand what really is, in today's world, still unexplainable, is impossible.
Jeffrey Epstein [29:47]: They're miracles.
Mary Meyer [29:52]: Oh, my gosh. He uses the word miracle again. So no one can understand it. No one can explain it.
Mary Meyer [29:59]: If it happens, it's a miracle, is what he's saying. And he's referring to science and I think the mad science stuff he's doing.
Interviewer [30:09]: The, uh, your first head of Santa Fe was Christopher
Jeffrey Epstein [30:13]: Langdon, I think
Interviewer [30:14]: Langdon from, from Austria
Jeffrey Epstein [30:15]: But Murray Gell-Mann was really-
Interviewer [30:16]: Murray Gell-Mann was the-
Jeffrey Epstein [30:17]: The funder. He was, he was the, the s- the rock
Interviewer [30:20]: Yes, yes. He was the-
Mary Meyer [30:21]: Murray Gell-Mann was the funder. He was the rock. Murray Gell-Mann.
Mary Meyer [30:26]: I'm gonna see if I can find him fast. Murray Gell-Mann.
Mary Meyer [30:32]: I'm gonna share it. Okay, can you see it? Okay.
Mary Meyer [30:36]: Murray Gell-Mann. Uh, September nineteen twenty-nine, he died in twenty nineteen, was an American theorist, theoretical phys-physicist who played a preeminent role in the development of the theory of elementary particles.
Mary Meyer [30:49]: Gell-Mann introduced the concept of quarks as a fundamental building blocks of the strongly interacting particle and renormalization group as a fundamental element of quantum field theory. I keep saying quantum physics is where it's at.
Mary Meyer [31:05]: I've said that not to you guys. I just say that a lot. The energ- world of energy is the quantum field.
Mary Meyer [31:12]: Um, the world of energy is the quantum field, and they're studying that statistical... Okay, so he received the Nobel Prize for Physics for his contributions.
Mary Meyer [31:22]: He played key roles in developing the concept of chirality, C-H-I-R-A-L-I-T-Y, in the theory of weak interactions and spontaneous chiral symmetry breaking in strong interactions.
Mary Meyer [31:35]: So ch-- Um, so chirality is a property of an object not being identical to its mirror image. An object is chiral, chirality, chiral if it is not identical to its mirror image.
Mary Meyer [31:51]: If it's not identical to its mirror image, that is, it cannot be superposed, not to be confused with superposed onto itself. Conversely, an object is achiral, sometimes also achiral, if its mirror image cannot be distinguished from the object superposed onto the mirror image, such as a sphere. A chiral object in a mirror image are called...
Mary Meyer [32:14]: A chiral object in its mirror image are called enantio, enantiomorphs, or when referring to molecules, enantio... Oh my gosh. Enantiomers.
Mary Meyer [32:27]: Chirality is a property of asymmetry important to several branches of science.
Mary Meyer [32:33]: We're gonna keep going. I j-- There's-- Every time I said this, uh, in the last one, it's like every time we just start on something, it's like it leads down these paths that you're like, "This could be studied and researched for a decade." Uh, for us, you know, even intell- super intelligent people that are trying to catch up. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is nuts.
Interviewer [32:56]: Well, he was a Nobel Prize winner.
Jeffrey Epstein [32:58]: Yes.
Interviewer [32:59]: Yes. And, and a wonderful guy. He came out and helped us with the Biosphere Two project.
Interviewer [33:03]: He came with-
Mary Meyer [33:04]: Okay, who's this?
Interviewer [33:05]: There was a man, Stuart Kauffman. When they think they, "Okay, I figured out how to be able to predict the unpredictable, what appears to other people to be unpredictable, but my system," in those days it was called genetic algorithms, "can predict the, what things will happen," then they all wanna make money.
Interviewer [33:22]: So they use their systems to try to figure out, they know they have figured out the way to make money because they figured out the unexplainable.
Interviewer [33:30]: They try, they go bankrupt, and we start again.
Jeffrey Epstein [33:33]: So in, with a cold view, what I've come to realize is that the, the attempt to mathematize, formularize, or what in your prior work to understand what really is in today's world still unexplainable is impossible. They're miracles.
Interviewer [33:55]: The, um, your first head of Santa Fe was Christopher-
Jeffrey Epstein [34:00]: Langdon, I think
Interviewer [34:01]: Langdon from, from Austria.
Jeffrey Epstein [34:02]: But Murray Gell-Mann was really-
Interviewer [34:03]: Murray Gell-Mann was the-
Jeffrey Epstein [34:04]: The funder. He was, he was the, the s- the rock.
Interviewer [34:06]: Yes, yes. He was the rock. He was a Nobel Prize winner.
Jeffrey Epstein [34:09]: Yes.
Interviewer [34:09]: Yes. And, and a wonderful guy. He came out and helped us with the Biosphere Two project.
Interviewer [34:13]: He came with Chris Langdon.
Jeffrey Epstein [34:16]: Yes.
Interviewer [34:16]: Chris Langdon was the op-operator, the day-to-day guy.
Jeffrey Epstein [34:18]: Chris was doing artificial life.
Interviewer [34:20]: Right.
Jeffrey Epstein [34:20]: Murray tried to lead his own artificial life.
Interviewer [34:23]: Yes. When Chris came to Biosphere Two for the-
Mary Meyer [34:27]: Okay, so they were, you know, researching artificial life. For the sake of time, I'm not gonna go into all of them again.
Mary Meyer [34:35]: Well, maybe I will just break this down. We're gonna keep listening for now
Interviewer [34:40]: For the first, um, big conference we had in nineteen ninety-four, he was one of the most impressive guys there-
Jeffrey Epstein [34:47]: Mm-hmm
Interviewer [34:47]: ... among all the world's elite. Kew Gardens, the Lawrence Livermore Lab, the, the, the labs at Sandia, um, you know, all the, all the major universities, Lamont-Doherty, uh, all the big earth observatories, Woods Hole.
Interviewer [35:00]: What set Langdon apart, I thought, and the reason I invited Santa Fe to be part of it, was Langdon actually made a presentation that everything, and he was making this to scientists, a lot of marine biologists, a lot of people that are just beginning, Wally Broecker and people who were just beginning the study of climate change, at that time called global warming, that he made this compelling presentation that everything's really mathematics.
Jeffrey Epstein [35:23]: Yes.
Interviewer [35:23]: It's all just back to math. And you have to, all these experiments you do, you're not-- One of the reasons they're not considered by the high priests in physics as being real experiments is that they don't have a mathematical basis to it, and everything has a mathematical basis to it.
Interviewer [35:40]: Langdon seemed like a radical visionary.
Interviewer [35:45]: What happened to that concept?
Jeffrey Epstein [35:49]: You go-
Mary Meyer [35:49]: Okay, before he does that, let's, let's look up... Okay, we're gonna find Langdon, the revolutionary. These people, it's such, it's interesting 'cause it's obviously incredibly important to and known to them, um, but I, I, you know, I don't think we're talking about it in general, and I'm not sure that, you know, in general we know about it.
Mary Meyer [36:13]: So I looked, I was looking this up. John Langdon Brooks was an American evolutionary biologist, ecologist, and linologist. Also remember that Epstein could have written this Wikipedia article because he did do that.
Mary Meyer [36:25]: Brooks was born in 1920, probably in Hamden, Connecticut. His father was John Alexander Brooks.
Mary Meyer [36:31]: He attended Yale. He studied. He returned to Yale and Osborne Zula. Okay.
Mary Meyer [36:39]: What? Come on. Brooks joined the National Science Foundation in 1969 and 1990, becoming director of Division of Environmental Biology with responsibility for programs in the foundation of ecology, population biology, physiological ecology, ecosystem studies, systematic biology, biological research.
Mary Meyer [36:57]: He's interested in the history of understanding evolution. And he took a sabbatical and wrote Just Before the Origin, Alfred Russell Wallace's Theory of Evolution, which was published in 1984.
Mary Meyer [37:09]: In this book, Brooks sets out Alfred Russell Wallace's development of his concepts on evolution using Wallace's essays from 1844 to 1855.
Interviewer [37:19]: They're miracles.
Mary Meyer [37:22]: I don't want to hear the word miracle coming out of his mouth.
Interviewer [37:24]: His first head of Santa Fe was Christopher Langdon, I think. Langdon from Australia. But Murray Gell-Mann was really the funder.
Interviewer [37:31]: He was the rock. Yes, he was the
Mary Meyer [37:34]: Okay, so I finally found the right person that I can say who this is. So I'm going to, I was reading the wrong person before.
Mary Meyer [37:43]: So Christopher Langton is an American computer scientist and one of the founders of the field of artificial life.
Mary Meyer [37:52]: He coined the term in the late 1980s when he first organized the first workshop on the synthesis and simulation of living systems, otherwise known as Artificial Life 1, at Los Alamos National Laboratory in 1987.
Mary Meyer [38:08]: Following his time at Los Alamos, Langton joined the Santa Fe Institute to continue his research on artificial life. He left the Santa Fe Institute in the late 1990s and abandoned his work on artificial life, publishing no research since that time. Interesting.
Mary Meyer [38:25]: He was profiled extensively in chapters 6 and 8 of the book Complexity by M. Mitchell Waldrip.
Mary Meyer [38:34]: Langton made numerous contributions to the field of artificial life, both in terms of simulation and computational models of given problems and to philosophical issues.
Mary Meyer [38:45]: Early on, he identified the problems of information, computation, and reproduction as intrinsically connected with complexity and its basic laws. Inspired by ideas coming from physics, particularly phase transitions, he developed several key concepts and quantitative measures for cellular automata and suggested the critical points separating order from disorder could play a very important role in shaping complex systems, particularly biology.
Mary Meyer [39:11]: These ideas were also explored simultaneously albeit with different approximations by James Crutchfield and Per Bach, among others.
Mary Meyer [39:25]: Okay. So he might still be alive. Do you want to come on the podcast and tell us about all this stuff?
Mary Meyer [39:32]: Because I would enjoy that. I don't know who to ask about all this stuff.
Mary Meyer [39:37]: So I'm just looking at it myself. I'm going to make myself bigger than him just to make him little.
Interviewer [39:45]: He was a Nobel Prize winner. Yes. Yes. And a wonderful guy. He came out and helped us with the Biosphere 2 project.
Interviewer [39:51]: He came with Chris Langdon. Yes. Chris Langdon was the operator, the day-to-day guy. Chris was doing artificial life.
Interviewer [39:58]: Murray tried to lead his own artificial life. Yes. When Chris came to Biosphere 2 for the first big conference we had in 1994, he was one of the most impressive guys there among all the world's elite. Hugh Gardens of – Who we just talked about. – the lab, the labs at Sandia, you know, all the major universities, Lamont Doherty, all the big earth observatories, Woods Hole.
Interviewer [40:25]: What set Langdon apart, I thought, and the reason I invited Santa Fe to be part of it was Langdon actually made a presentation that everything – and he was making this to scientists, a lot of marine biologists, a lot of people that are just beginning, Wally Broker and people who are just beginning the study of climate change, at that time called global warming, that he made this compelling presentation that everything's really mathematics.
Interviewer [40:48]: Yes. It's all just back to math. And you have to – all these experiments you do, you're not – one of the reasons they're not considered by the high priests in physics as being real experiments is that they don't have a mathematical basis to it, and everything has a mathematical basis to it. Langdon seemed like a –
Mary Meyer [41:08]: He keeps saying high priest of physics. I just have to look that up. What is that? So we're going to do another one. High priest of physics.
Mary Meyer [41:17]: Hi. I'm going to share this with you now. I'm assuming. I'm just going to make the assumption that most of you also don't know who all these people are and what they're talking about. So we might as well look at it together, you know.
Mary Meyer [41:33]: The high priest of theoretical physics. So it's a thing. Fortunately, in the world of theoretical physics, there is a genius among geniuses and a high priest above them all, Edward Witten. So instead of saying his name, they're just calling him the high priest of physics.
Mary Meyer [41:50]: Featured in a recent Quantum Magazine profile. Among the brilliant theorists cloistered in the quiet Woodside campsite in the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey, Edward Witten stands out as a kind of high priest.
Mary Meyer [42:06]: Oh, this is very uncomfortable knowing what we know now. The sole physicist ever to win the Fields Medals Mathematics Premier Prize, Witten is known for discovering M-theory, the leading candidate for a unified physical theory of everything.
Mary Meyer [42:26]: A genius's genius, Witten is tall and
Jeffrey Epstein [42:29]: Rectangular with hazy eyes and an air of being only one-quarter tuned into reality until someone draws him back for more abstract thoughts. And let's go see if he's in the Epstein files.
Jeffrey Epstein [42:45]: Um, sorry, I gotta share screen. Share screen. Share screen.
Jeffrey Epstein [42:51]: Uh, Robert Kun, K-U-N. Just returned from China, running around, China business stuff.
Jeffrey Epstein [42:58]: Um, do, do, do, do. That's okay. Kicking off high gear production.
Jeffrey Epstein [43:03]: Challengers. I'm just trying to find his name in here. This is the thing is, like, when you look through the, the emails in the Epstein files, most of them is just un-uncomfortably dull and an easy way to fall asleep.
Jeffrey Epstein [43:20]: Um, so who knows? Breakthroughs, updates. Looks like a lot of consciousness and plant thinkers.
Jeffrey Epstein [43:30]: Always open for more, says Jeffrey. Just a piece of what I'm up to. Okay, let's go to the first part of the email thread.
Jeffrey Epstein [43:39]: Um, is Robert saying...
Jeffrey Epstein [43:50]: Uh, Edward Witten is gonna be at Princeton on April fifteenth.
Jeffrey Epstein [43:55]: Kicking in high gear. Con-contributors and dates are below. Challenge with logistics.
Jeffrey Epstein [44:00]: Very pleased with world-class roster. This was in nine-- twenty nineteen.
Jeffrey Epstein [44:07]: Will send address and time close to April seventh. Looking forward to it. Just a piece of what I'm up to.
Jeffrey Epstein [44:13]: Okay. Um, so y'all can keep looking for that. I'm going to not do it for the sake of time on this part.
Jeffrey Epstein [44:28]: But, um, we know that the high priest of physics is the high priest of... I don't like how they're using those terms, knowing what we know about them.
Jeffrey Epstein [44:39]: Um, the high priest of physics is Edward Witten.
Interviewer [44:44]: In nineteen ninety-four. He was one of the most impressive guys there among all the world's elite. Kew Gardens, the Lawrence Livermore Lab, the, the, the labs at Sandia, um, you know, all the, all the major universities, Lamont-Doherty, uh, all the big earth observatories, Woods Hole.
Interviewer [45:01]: What set Langdon apart, I thought, and the reason I invited Santa Fe to be part of it, was Langdon actually made a presentation that everything-- And he was making this to scientists, a lot of marine biologists, a lot of people that are just beginning, Wally Broecker and people who are just beginning the study of climate change, at that time called global warming.
Interviewer [45:20]: That he made this compelling presentation that everything's really mathematics.
Jeffrey Epstein [45:24]: Yes.
Interviewer [45:24]: It's all just back to math. And you have to-- All these experiments you do, you're not-- One of the reasons they're not considered by the high priests in physics as being real experiments is that they don't have a mathematical basis to it, and everything has a mathematical basis to it.
Interviewer [45:41]: Langdon seemed like a radical visionary.
Interviewer [45:46]: What happened to that concept?
Jeffrey Epstein [45:50]: You go back three hundred and fifty years. So you have Isaac Newton, you have Leibniz.
Jeffrey Epstein [45:57]: From move forward, you have to think people like Heisenberg and Gredell, Gödel, E-- And what every one of those mathematicians and philosophers came to understand is that there's something with...
Jeffrey Epstein [46:12]: There's numbers can describe certain things, approximate certain things.
Jeffrey Epstein [46:18]: But in fact, trying to put measurements and numbers on other things that are really unexplainable is folly. It's-- So three hundred years ago, they said that unexplainable realm was God.
Jeffrey Epstein [46:34]: And people who attempted, in fact, to explain the unexplainable, who said, "Yes, I understand the unexplainable," were charlatans.
Jeffrey Epstein [46:45]: They were the occults. They were the astrologers. They were the, the con men.
Interviewer [46:49]: Alchemists.
Jeffrey Epstein [46:50]: Yes. A- well, no, alchemists was in fact... Th-they believed that there was a way to transmute one metal into another. In fact, they always wanted to see if they can create gold.
Jeffrey Epstein [47:00]: There's no reason, if you think about it, they recognize that one metal is different than another metal because it has some additional pieces to it. It has additional neu-neutrons or protons or electrons.
Jeffrey Epstein [47:13]: So because they thought it was a machine, they believed it was a machine, if I can take five protons and add five, that gives me ten, I should be able to get gold.
Jeffrey Epstein [47:24]: Or ch- move everything around inside these systems, the molecules transmute one molecule into another, and if this molecule I've transmuted it into is gold, I'm a rich man. It's back to money.
Jeffrey Epstein [47:37]: But there's something strange happens.
Jeffrey Epstein [47:41]: Isaac Newton says, "This is really weird. If, if I wanna push a ball on the table, I have to touch it.
Jeffrey Epstein [47:50]: I could have-- Maybe I have to blow on it. But I actually have to push one side of the ball or the book to move that side.
Jeffrey Epstein [47:58]: I'm pushing here, and obviously the, this thing is what appears to us humans to be solid, so it moves as one thing.
Jeffrey Epstein [48:07]: But the only way to get something to move was to touch it or put a force against it." Okay.
Jeffrey Epstein [48:14]: Seems to make sense. Everybody has that experience. You know, if I wanna lift a glass, I lift it.
Jeffrey Epstein [48:18]: If I wanna push a ball, I push it. If I wanna pull a ball, I pull it. But he recognized when the ball fell off the table, fell off the table, it went in a different direction.
Jeffrey Epstein [48:31]: How is that possible? Nobody pushed the ball down.And he says, "This is crazy.
Jeffrey Epstein [48:37]: Why did the ball go down? I didn't push it. I just let it go." So someone's pushing the ball because I know that-- I am confident that the only thing that gets something to move is with a force that pushes.
Jeffrey Epstein [48:52]: So there's a force that's pushing the ball down. In fact, he never f-he called it gravity.
Jeffrey Epstein [49:00]: He measured how fast it was pulled, but never was able to explain why it happened. How is it? What is gravity?
Jeffrey Epstein [49:11]: It's this... Everybody says, "Well, why did the ball fall to the ground?" Because gravity took it. What's gravity?
Jeffrey Epstein [49:17]: That's, as Feynman would say, "That's the name of the thing, we have no idea what it is." This goes to Santa Fe.
Jeffrey Epstein [49:24]: They were trying to put-- explain the unexplainable.
Jeffrey Epstein [49:28]: Can we measure, can we figure out a way to predict the stock markets using these types of chaos complexity?
Interviewer [49:36]: Before we get there, let's walk back through.
Jeffrey Epstein [49:38]: Sure, sure.
Interviewer [49:38]: Let's, let's, let's, let's go back to Newton.
Jeffrey Epstein [49:41]: Sure.
Steve Bannon [49:41]: Pre-Newton and then Newton. What did Newton solve that for millennia up to Newton had not been solved? And then I wanna go forward all the way to Santa Fe and what they were trying to solve. Let's start with just two or three of the basic guys. But let's go with Newton. What-- Pre-Newton, it was what? And then why is Newton such a-
Jeffrey Epstein [50:00]: A genius
Steve Bannon [50:01]: ... and such a-- in, in, in the-- I think mathematically, they told me one time or I've seen there's been a hundred and fifteen billion people roughly that have lived on the earth.
Steve Bannon [50:11]: Uh, and of that hundred and fifteen billion, Newton-
Jeffrey Epstein [50:13]: Are you sure that's the number? That sounds, like, very high. We only have seven now.
Steve Bannon [50:17]: I, I think in the history of the earth, I think so. I, I, I'll, I'll pull, I'll pull up the, the stat for you.
Jeffrey Epstein [50:22]: Okay.
Steve Bannon [50:22]: But I think it's a hundred and fifteen billion people they figure.
Jeffrey Epstein [50:25]: That probably is inflation. That's why it's-
Interviewer [50:26]: Have li-have lived, have lived through the, have lived on the earth.
Jeffrey Epstein [50:29]: Right.
Interviewer [50:29]: But he's one of the handful of the most important. What did he solve for?
Interviewer [50:34]: Why is he so important for how we live today? And then we wanna go through Leibniz and the other two or three other major ones to get us to Santa Fe.
Jeffrey Epstein [50:42]: Well, that's a long, it's a long journey.
Interviewer [50:45]: It's-- This is the heart of the, this is the heart of what we're trying to do.
Jeffrey Epstein [50:48]: Let me take a bit of a detour for just a second.
Interviewer [50:51]: Okay.
Jeffrey Epstein [50:51]: What-- If you, if you went to high school and the last year in your high school you took calculus, so Isaac Newton sort of invents calculus. Well, that sounds invents.
Jeffrey Epstein [51:02]: You know, the mathematicians-
Interviewer [51:04]: To torture, to torture seniors in high school before they graduate.
Jeffrey Epstein [51:06]: Yes, but obviously-- No. Yes. The answer is yes. Certain, certain people can't-- could never do calculus.
Jeffrey Epstein [51:12]: Uh-
Interviewer [51:12]: Why, why is it? Why is calculus so d-- why is that the dividing line between, you know, too many people who could handle that and could go on to do certain things, and people just hit the wall even if they know math? It seems to me that there's...
Interviewer [51:28]: that, that, that calculus is the, is the thing that changes. It, it, it, it, it bridges. That's because it's about the, the, about the theory of change and the theory of how things change.
Jeffrey Epstein [51:39]: It, it's a great question. But in fact, what calculus does is it's, it's somewhat philosophical.
Jeffrey Epstein [51:45]: That's why mathematics is... It-- You know, they used to... Newton wasn't a mathematician. He was called a geometer.
Jeffrey Epstein [51:51]: That's what they used to call themselves. They understood geometry and, and numbers.
Jeffrey Epstein [51:56]: But there was an, there's an old conundrum, uh, where it says if...
Jeffrey Epstein [52:03]: And, and during Pythagoras days, Zeno's paradox it's called, where they said, "Well, if I take-- If the wall is two feet away from me and I take one step that's halfway to the wall, that'll be one foot away.
Jeffrey Epstein [52:17]: And if I take another step that's half again, that'll be half a foot away, and then a quarter of a foot. I could walk forever but never touch the wall." Doesn't sound realist. Doesn't make any sense in our real lives of the physical.
Jeffrey Epstein [52:32]: But what N-Newton understood is many problems were like that. Many things approached the wall or in his, in calculus approached the limit, but never really reached it. So he said, "It's okay. You don't have to reach. We can do lots of the mathematics as if it was so close it was almost there, and we could do lots of mathematics almost being at the limit." And this is really important, Steve, for today 'cause most of the science up until today was things that are starting to approach the limit.
Jeffrey Epstein [53:11]: This-- You were taught in high school that if you had one divided by zero, wh-if you remember your high school algebra, you were told...
Jeffrey Epstein [53:23]: What's the answer to that? Is there an answer to one divided by zero? No. If you were in high school, I'd say stay away from it. It's the boogeyman.
Jeffrey Epstein [53:31]: Uh, you could write it down as it's undefined.
Jeffrey Epstein [53:35]: It's not d-able to be determined. There, there's a bunch of things.
Jeffrey Epstein [53:42]: But in fact, one divided by zero is a strange things happen. It's a world of the strange, and it would-- I'll explain to you after, is that when you get one divided by zero, you get into a world we don't know what happens.
Jeffrey Epstein [53:55]: The answer is, it's not explainable. We can give it-- We can call it th-things like undetermined is what...
Jeffrey Epstein [54:01]: We can give-- have a convention to say it-it's X, Y, or Z. But in real life, we don't know what happens when you are actually at the limit.
Jeffrey Epstein [54:11]: So that's an... Newton thought the same concept is that the limits were-
Mary Meyer [54:16]: Well, I was just letting that roll for a while. So just in case, you know, when I say he was really into math and really into science, it's like he's talking about these guys like they were his buddies.
Mary Meyer [54:27]: He knows it well. Uh, and, um, these different ... Again, this is like it's hard how... It's like to put it in your brain, this is a child trafficker.But he doesn't seem to even be conceptually interested in that.
Mary Meyer [54:48]: He seems to be interested in math and science and mad science.
Mary Meyer [54:56]: And like you said, reaching the limits and we don't know what that means. And if we figure it out, it's a miracle.
Mary Meyer [55:06]: And this is partly why I go like a little scratch information. And it's like there's the rabbit trails do not end with this.
Mary Meyer [55:16]: And it's why I'm covering it. I don't think it's just a news story or an aside or a thing. I think it is the thing.
Mary Meyer [55:24]: It is the thing that we all have to understand.
Mary Meyer [55:28]: One, to save the kids from someone who does not look like a predator. And most predators don't look or act like predators. They are well-spoken, good-looking men, a lot of them. I mean, this is a good-looking older man.
Mary Meyer [55:48]: Here we go.
Jeffrey Epstein [55:48]: Philip God, you got close to God, but you can never be God.
Mary Meyer [55:52]: Okay, we got to back that up.
Jeffrey Epstein [55:54]: You were taught in high school that if you had one divided by zero, if you remember your high school algebra, you were told, what's the answer to that? Is there an answer to one divided by zero? No, if you were in high school, I'd say stay away from it. It's the boogeyman.
Jeffrey Epstein [56:15]: You could write it down as it's undefined. It's not able to be determined.
Jeffrey Epstein [56:22]: There's a bunch of things. But in fact, one divided by zero is a strange things happen.
Jeffrey Epstein [56:29]: It's a world of the strange. And what I'll explain to you after is that when you get one divided by zero, you get into a world we don't know what happens.
Jeffrey Epstein [56:38]: The answer is it's not explainable. We can call it things like undetermined. We can have a convention to say it's X, Y, or Z. But in real life, we don't know what happens when you are actually at the limit.
Jeffrey Epstein [56:54]: So Newton thought the same concept is that the limits were Philip God.
Jeffrey Epstein [57:00]: You got close to God, but you can never be God. We had this sort of religious interpretation.
Jeffrey Epstein [57:05]: Okay, I want to go back to Newton. Why is Newton such a big dividing line in mankind's history? What is it about Newton?
Mary Meyer [57:13]: I'm just going to just back up just a little bit. So the uncomfortableness of a man who is involved in like the Satan worship and the murdering and eating children and the stuff that he has done talking about God, it just, I might need more wine.
Mary Meyer [57:39]: Let's see what time it is. It's getting so late right now. Okay.
Mary Meyer [57:45]: I just want to show you guys. I thought you'd think this is funny. I am drinking freak show because that seems appropriate right now, doesn't it?
Mary Meyer [57:58]: I had a friend give this to me for my birthday and I'm just drinking it now because I don't know how to handle this.
Mary Meyer [58:07]: Interpreting an interview with a guy who doesn't look the least bit evil, doesn't talk the least bit evil and is like the epicenter of all this crap.
Mary Meyer [58:20]: Worldwide sex trafficking, Satan worship, all the crap they were doing to children.
Mary Meyer [58:28]: And here we are talking about it's next to God when you don't know something and then it's like a miracle if it happens and everything is related to math and