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Two founders talk about how to build software businesses that are meant to last. Each episode includes a deep dive into a different topic related to starting, growing, and sustaining a healthy business.
00:02.65
r
What's up this week, Tyler?
00:04.53
Tyler King
Not much. ah my My holiday is about to start because I have a bunch of family coming into or a bunch of my wife's family coming into town and taking a few days off here. So I know everyone else is getting over kind of the Christmas New Year break, but I'm i'm just beginning.
00:20.67
r
is ah do you Do they stay with you and when they come or or do they get hotels nearby? How do you how do you do that?
00:26.71
Tyler King
yeah Yeah, this is the first time we've done this or sorry, each year a different person hosts. So like two years ago, we're in Portland. Last year we were in Vegas or I don't know. There's like four different locations.
00:37.17
Tyler King
This is the first time we've hosted um two people. Well, we have two guest bedrooms right now because we just finished our basement. So four people are staying with us and then four other people are getting hotel rooms.
00:49.57
Tyler King
So kind of a mixture.
00:51.43
r
That's fun. I like that tradition rotating, rotating hosts.
00:52.53
Tyler King
Yeah.
00:55.28
r
That's a good idea. Most people just want, there's like one dominant a host who usually in most families, there's one dominant host that says you're coming here or we're not coming.
01:04.64
Tyler King
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Shelley's from LA and we always used to go back to her mom's house. Everyone did, but then her mom and stepdad moved to Vegas. So now there's someone in Portland, someone in the Bay area, someone in Vegas and us in St.
01:16.03
Tyler King
Louis. And so there's just not really a home base anymore. So yeah, we started the rotating thing and it's a nice way to celebrate kind of getting the house remodeled, uh, have, have people over and test it out, see how it goes.
01:26.25
r
Yeah, that's awesome.
01:27.88
Tyler King
Um, how about you? How are your holidays?
01:29.96
r
They're good. ah we We hosted this year, um, the Christmas morning thing. And that was fun. Um, kids had a blast. Uh, when, when you'll learn this, but when you have like a, at least for me, when I had, when we have like one and three year olds, it's like, everything is fun to give them and they don't really care about a toy for that long.
01:49.70
Tyler King
Yeah.
01:51.47
r
And so every gift, like the, the, the excitement is fleeting. And so you just end up giving them a lot of different things.
01:56.51
Tyler King
Yeah.
01:57.83
r
Um, so we definitely spoiled our kids this year. It was really fun. Uh, but.
02:01.66
Tyler King
Nice.
02:02.27
r
You say what I didn't coordinate very well. And so we ended up getting twice as many guests as we probably should have. Um,
02:09.12
Tyler King
Well, you're not even in the sweet spot of like, I feel like I suck at knowing kids ages, but I feel like kind of five to 10 is when it's like they're old enough to really want a specific thing.
02:20.30
Tyler King
And then when they get it, they're excited about that.
02:23.28
r
yeah, well, Oliver knew what he wanted.
02:25.38
Tyler King
Oh, he did a rocking bird.
02:26.10
r
He wanted, ah he wanted a rocking bird.
02:30.26
r
Yeah. and And I go like, do you, do you mean mockingbird? And he goes, no dad. It's like that song.
02:35.87
Tyler King
You idiot.
02:37.16
r
It's like that song. If, if that rocking, if that rocking bird don't sing, daddy's going to buy you a diamond ring.
02:40.62
Tyler King
Oh.
02:44.08
r
And so he asked for a rocking bird, a diamond ring.
02:46.34
Tyler King
Then you're like, I'll just get you the ring, I guess. I don't know what a rocking bird is.
02:51.30
r
Well, I got him a, I got him a little, a toy bird that you press a button and it and it like sings.
02:56.92
Tyler King
Oh, all right. Very nice.
02:59.08
r
Well, no, Santa, Santa got in that.
03:00.88
Tyler King
Santa got it. Yeah.
03:02.01
r
Yes.
03:02.10
Tyler King
How do you you're you're going with the Santa is providing all the gifts thing.
03:08.26
r
Not all the guests, not all the guests, just like, just like the ones he asked Santa for, which were three, three of them.
03:09.56
Tyler King
Some of them, some of them.
03:13.83
Tyler King
Uh, okay. That makes sense.
03:15.62
r
And I, and I always enjoy stocking stuffers. Do you do stocking stuffers?
03:19.16
Tyler King
Yeah. What I did with my parents this year was just stacking stuffers. So like me, Shelley, my two parents, each of us got four stacking stuffers for each other person. So 12 each. Um, and that was it. No, like real gifts.
03:29.46
Tyler King
And I think that was fun.
03:31.20
r
Those are fun little knickknack guests.
03:33.53
Tyler King
Yeah. Just some throwaway things, but yeah.
03:34.92
r
Mm hmm.
03:36.88
Tyler King
Um, cool. My other personal news is we're getting a car right after we finish recording here.
03:40.28
r
Oh, well, I.
03:42.93
Tyler King
Um, Well, we have one car between the two of us. And this has been like kind of an important part of my identity, like moving from San Francisco back to St. Louis, but like clinging on to my urban sensibilities a little bit and being like, wait we're not going to have two cars. um But with a kid coming, I everything I've been told is it would be very difficult if we don't have two cars.
04:05.52
r
ah You've always been weird about cars. I've always had like three X, the number of cars that you have. That means I need to buy three more cars.
04:10.33
Tyler King
Yeah. You got to get some more cars, Rick. Go for it. Yeah, now I don't. ah Cars are obviously a useful tool, but I hate how they're a part of the American identity. And I want to rebel against that, but it's not practical right now.
04:24.95
r
ah Well, so, so have you thought about a mock make model ah type? yeah You got to go minivan, right?
04:30.66
Tyler King
Oh, we've already got the we're getting a used Nissan Leaf. What a sexy car.
04:35.87
r
Oh my gosh.
04:39.77
Tyler King
It's very cheap. It's all electric. It'll be cool. I don't know.
04:43.03
r
Oh, this is so e hi hilarious.
04:46.05
Tyler King
I just can't. We were looking at it. We were like, should we get like a nice car? And both of us were just like, I can't justify that. There's so many other things I'd rather spend money on.
04:58.89
r
Well, um, as soon as I can afford it, I'm buying a, uh, a Corvette e-ray, which is their new hybrid all wheel drive model.
04:59.37
Tyler King
but
05:06.66
r
And it looks sick.
05:08.20
Tyler King
Wow, that sounds that sounds premium.
05:11.75
r
It's, I mean, it's still American, you know, American sports car, but it's not, so it's not crazy, but it's, it's a cool car. It's the first one they've made that's all wheel drive, but you don't care about this.
05:22.69
Tyler King
like i Well, yeah. I care about all all-wheel drive now. You're in Utah. Nice safety feature.
05:26.54
r
Yeah. yeah
05:28.66
Tyler King
OK, yeah, no most importantly, no one listening cares about this. ah Yeah, what's going on work-wise?
05:35.33
r
Um, well, uh, most of the break was me preparing for January events. We, uh, leg up is hosting two, uh, I don't want to call them conferences, but they're like little events. Um, one is a, uh, is a event called growth elevated. It's a Utah tech, uh, an entrepreneur startup event. Um, and it's a three day thing that Jay's going to attend and we'll sponsor a meal at where he gets to get up and say, Hey, you know, here's what leg up help does. Um, and.
06:05.59
r
the way the, you know, the cost of these sponsorships work out so that if we get one or two employer deals, um, they pay back. The second one is actually at my son's school, they, they're doing, um, you know, any, any parents who have a small business like are coming to do like of any trade show.
06:22.60
r
Um, and so I bought, uh, a bunch of, yeah, but know the the the kids are going to walk around with, with the, with their families.
06:22.89
Tyler King
Hm. Or other parents, I assume. You're not selling to kids.
06:31.29
Tyler King
OK, cool.
06:31.78
r
Um, and so, uh, I don't, I don't fully, I don't fully get it yet, but it was, there was no cost other than, you know, bringing a booth, which is actually not cheap, but, um, you know, and some giveaways.
06:47.02
r
And so what I, what I did was I ordered a bunch of leg up branded sour patch kid packets and, uh, jelly, jelly belly packets.
06:47.47
Tyler King
Hm.
06:55.52
Tyler King
I saw you posting this stuff in Slack and I didn't but i should have asked what i was like why what's going on here, but okay, this makes a lot more sense now.
06:55.77
r
yeah
07:03.94
r
yeah Um, and then, uh, for the, for the, the, the, the other event is a ski ski event. It's at Alta ski resort. And so, um, our, uh, swag bag stuffer is like a branded chapstick, which is, yeah you know, useful, uh, when you're skiing.
07:19.49
Tyler King
Nice. That's a good one. Yeah, yeah, and you'll keep it on you for a while. Yeah, I like that one.
07:25.75
r
man Yeah.
07:26.65
Tyler King
I guess for kids, the Sour Patch Kids makes sense.
07:27.42
r
Yeah.
07:29.21
Tyler King
ah But so you got like banners printed and stuff for the booth.
07:29.80
r
yeah Yeah. Yeah. So I got, I got.
07:33.33
Tyler King
So it's kind of a one time expense. You don't like you you get to keep using that stuff.
07:35.71
r
Exactly, and we'll use it and we'll use it. We got we got a couple things printed. So and I this was fun for me. I actually um I didn't realize that I have my design. I'm not a designer by any means, but like my ability to pull something together that looks decent. Um, I was impressed with, uh, I have a, we bought a pop-up banner, which is one of those things that like collapses, but you pull up and you usually put it in front of a booth and it has like calls to action. Um, I, we, we, we, we ordered some t-shirts. Uh, we got a ah tablecloth, um, uh, for, you know, a tablecloth cover table cover. Um, and then I got a non-branded tent, like the branded tents were expensive, like getting something that actually like,
08:13.32
r
has leg ups brand on like a, like a covered, uh, arrangement for outside.
08:18.42
Tyler King
Mm hmm.
08:19.18
r
So I didn't do that. I just bought like a $200 10 on Amazon.
08:22.34
Tyler King
Yeah, that makes sense. Cool.
08:23.94
r
So anyway, I feel good about it.
08:24.16
Tyler King
Yeah. I, I saw, I saw the designs you made. I think they look really good. I, even though I'm more of a designer than you, I think it's very possible you're a better print designer than me. This has always been a big weakness of mine is like brochures and banners, like physical things.
08:38.49
Tyler King
Uh, I just suck at designing that type of stuff. And I think what you came up with actually looked really good.
08:44.37
r
Thanks. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, my secret is find something I like and then change the colors.
08:50.00
Tyler King
that's a good That's a good trick, yep. Well, I haven't, I've been doing that this whole time. I always just start with a blank canvas and I'm like, well, let's put a triangle here.
08:58.04
r
but yeah If you try to do that, that's not going to happen. That's not going to work.
09:03.34
Tyler King
Yeah, that's cool.
09:04.02
r
So so anyway, we we have a, we now have swag inventory, which is kind of fun. And I've been wanting that for awhile. Um, uh, so it feels like a milestone.
09:10.00
Tyler King
Yeah. And yeah, thanks for sending the t-shirt.
09:12.64
r
Did you get it?
09:12.73
Tyler King
I, uh, I got the t-shirt. Yes. I haven't had a chance to put it on yet, but, uh, on my list looks good. It's very soft. Well done.
09:21.29
r
Thank you.
09:21.55
Tyler King
I love a soft offer post on ripple ripple.fm three.
09:23.81
r
yeah it a Yes. And if anyone would like us a leg up t-shirt, I've got a few left. Feel free to reach out. I will send them.
09:32.76
r
Yeah. Three. three I will send three. I love budget right now.
09:37.52
Tyler King
Um, yeah.
09:39.48
r
um But yeah, so ah I guess the other update is ah big BigQuery is set up.
09:41.06
Tyler King
Cool. What else?
09:45.61
r
um That's something that I talked about in previous episodes to manage our plan database and ah in a more efficient way and then also start exploring ah some other publicly available data for lead purchasing or for lead ah ah identification.
09:59.58
r
um So I actually got it set up and it's very useful. It's much easier for me to work in than a spreadsheet that times out um over and over again. So ah ah debate it's basically just a database, um but I'm running into a roadblock with what I can do with it um because it relies on SQL queries.
10:07.97
Tyler King
Yeah.
10:17.79
r
queries ah So like, for example, like the outputs that you need could easily be created with a SQL query, but I've got to be able to write that SQL query in order to get what you what you need.
10:29.49
r
And so I'm just like, where do I go to get SQL? like do what's that My question for you is, what's the best way for me to learn SQL? Is it to go take a course? Is it to just hammer chat GPT with asking it what I'm trying to do?
10:41.81
Tyler King
Yeah.
10:41.80
r
Because that has gone like so, so, so far, i don't because I don't have a base knowledge. Do you have any thoughts?
10:46.00
Tyler King
Yeah, let me give the, OK, so chat GPT is where I was going to go with this. like I actually, let me answer this as if you're like trying to become a developer, because I met mentor a lot of college students trying to become developers. No one teaches SQL or database stuff at all in college, really. So all these college students, I'm kind of like, this is one of the core skills you need to learn. ah When I interviewed at Zane Benefits, you know Ben Diltz, the future founder of Lucidchart, interviewed me. The whole interview was SQL. I think it's a really valuable skill. I also think it's like one of the things ChatGPT is best at.
11:17.98
Tyler King
Um, like I'm pretty good with SQL. I don't come up with my own queries anymore. I just tell chat GPT what I want and it spits them out. Um, but you do, I guess probably. It helps that I know what to tell chat, chat GPT. Like, are you saying you're trying that and it's, it's not giving you the right query or something like that?
11:36.87
r
the i I don't necessarily trust the output. I don't know how to validate the output is what I actually wanted across a large data set.
11:41.13
Tyler King
Hmm.
11:44.06
r
So it's, yeah, it's, it's giving me useful stuff, but I, but I, but then I don't know, like how to validate what that it was. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, do I have 90% confidence that this has given me?
11:51.88
Tyler King
Yeah. Yeah.
11:54.55
r
Well, it's all like, I can be, have any error with, with what I'm trying to do.
11:57.60
Tyler King
Yeah. I don't have a good answer to that.
11:57.83
r
So yeah.
11:59.50
Tyler King
Um, I've not, I I've never really done it in the the way you're doing it right now, but I do think chat GPT is great. i I think SQL is pretty simple. So like, if you wanted to, I wonder if you could just have chat GPT explain like, Hey, you, it says inner join there.
12:15.87
Tyler King
What's that? Like, what is that doing?
12:18.21
r
Oh yeah.
12:18.50
Tyler King
Um,
12:18.85
r
I started, I started reading about joins. It's like, why are there so many different joints?
12:23.57
Tyler King
Yeah, well, you know the concept though, like, cause last year you sent me the spreadsheets and there's like three spreadsheets and they're connected with what's called a foreign key, right? There's a primary key on one table and then a foreign key on the other that references the primary.
12:35.41
Tyler King
And like, you know, all the concepts.
12:36.65
r
What's a foreign key?
12:38.19
Tyler King
So, okay. Imagine you have a plan, like an insurance plan database or table.
12:43.61
r
Yeah.
12:43.77
Tyler King
Uh, and that has a plan ID in a different table. Like I don't know enough about the terminology. What's what's something that would join on a plan table.
12:53.55
r
rate rates, but they're the same.
12:54.41
Tyler King
rates. The rates table would have a line with all this rate information, and then it would have a foreign key called plan ID that connects. like Let's say there's each plan has four different rates. There'd be four rows all pointing back to the one row on the plan table. So the primary key is on the plan table. The foreign key is on the all the other table. like Or let me put it this way.
13:17.70
r
They're the same identifier. They're just different.
13:19.67
Tyler King
They're the same identifier. yeah If you have a one-to-many relationship, the table with the one has the primary key and the table with the many has the foreign key.
13:21.21
r
Okay. Got it.
13:29.67
r
If you just got two tables, but what decides whether it's primary or secondary?
13:35.25
Tyler King
ah the main thing so the The way I teach this to people is like you should you should think almost all database challenges. you The first question you gotta ask is, what type of relationship is there between the data?
13:45.86
Tyler King
one-to-one, one-to-many, many-to-many. One-to-one meaning like for every plan, there's a plan name. There's for every, yeah you know, whatever other information, that all just goes in one table.
13:57.48
Tyler King
There's never, yeah, the attributes table.
13:57.73
r
That's the, that's the attributes table that we have.
14:00.76
Tyler King
There's never really a reason to break something into two tables if there's a one-to-one relationship between each room.
14:05.77
r
Then why have they done this?
14:07.54
Tyler King
Yes, I don't know. Maybe because the Excel files were too big.
14:09.20
r
That's why it's, that's what's harder this year.
14:11.24
Tyler King
Yeah.
14:11.42
r
Yeah, that's probably why.
14:12.18
Tyler King
So if if I were you, I would try to, in in BigQuery, combine them into one table then.
14:17.12
r
That's what I'm going to do.
14:17.18
Tyler King
That would simplify it a lot.
14:18.19
r
Yep.
14:18.57
Tyler King
OK.
14:18.99
r
Yep.
14:19.17
Tyler King
And then if it's one to many, that means, OK, for every one plan, there can be multiple rates. You can't store that all in one table. You have to have one table for the plan, one table for the rates.
14:30.16
Tyler King
And then multiple rows from the rate table can point to the same row in the plan table.
14:35.09
r
Yep.
14:35.48
Tyler King
So that's one to many. And then many to many is more complicated. But ah I don't think you need that. But I'm happy to talk about that as well.
14:42.38
r
No, thank you. that That probably like unblocked me a little bit. Just just thinking about, you're right. it's It's about database structure and if I If I stay focused, I know the concepts from Excel.
14:54.69
r
i just need It's the terminology that is throwing me off like and the complexity. like It's a lot more complex than visual you know editing of a database.
15:00.01
Tyler King
Yeah.
15:04.21
Tyler King
Yeah.
15:04.53
r
um
15:04.82
Tyler King
I'll say, though, it's there are actually only a few concepts that you have. Database stuff can get super complicated if you're like a professional DBA. But for like what I know, and I think I'm above average for the average software engineer, there's like five concepts to know.
15:19.30
Tyler King
it's It's not that complicated, I don't think.
15:23.02
r
Okay. Okay, cool. Thank you.
15:24.43
Tyler King
Mm-hmm.
15:24.94
r
Tell me about you. What's going on with you?
15:26.63
Tyler King
Um, yeah, let me maybe start with, um, well, no, I'll start with what's at the top here. Uh, for the first time ever, we are going to try an experiment. I think maybe I've talked about this with you before cause you've been.
15:36.39
r
This is called remarketing, I believe.
15:38.95
Tyler King
Uh, sort of, well, and I think of remarketing as being a different thing, but what we're going to do is email a list of customers who previously signed up either for free trials or had paid accounts and canceled within the last year. Um, Rick is making a clapping gesture. I know this is obvious. Like, of course we should be doing this, but it's so annoying. And until recently we did tell people when they, when they, when they canceled, we were like, yep, we'll never reach out to you again for any reason. Bye. We stopped telling them that.
16:09.27
r
You're a less annoying CRM, not a not annoying CRM.
16:11.51
Tyler King
Not annoying, I know. Yeah, and well, a big part of the justification for this in my mind is like, we legitimately added a lot of stuff last year that is the types of the reasons people cancel. We've fixed a lot of those um by adding features and stuff.
16:27.53
Tyler King
And so, obviously, 90% of people who get this email aren't aren't going to be interested. But I actually think some people will be like, oh, great. I tried out Lessening Serum. I didn't go with you because you didn't have email integration. Now you do. I'll go check it out again. So we're taking people who signed up from, I think it's like October 2022, or 2023 through October 2024,
16:48.05
Tyler King
Um, so people who have not freshly canceled, but like a year's worth of canceled people. Uh, but most, most of them aren't canceled. Most of them are just free trial users that never converted. We're just going to send them an email like, Hey, this is the, we're just going to send this one time. You don't, you don't need to unsubscribe. There's nothing unsubscribe to here, but, uh, you tried out less knowing serum in the past. We made a lot of improvements to it, uh, over the last year. Just wanted to let you know about them. Bye.
17:12.61
r
Bye. Yeah. It's, uh, it's interesting. Like with, with health insurance, I, I, I, this guy go back to the differences between our, our business. Like once someone picks a CRM, it's very hard to get them to switch. Um, so likely they, they, when they were kicking your tires, they were also kicking other people's tires and they, they decided on a CRM ultimately, hypothetically, right?
17:36.71
Tyler King
Yes. I think a lot of people just go with non-consumption though. Um, we have a lot of people who sign up for us and then they, so most people don't cancel during the free trial. They just let it lapse and we never know why, but of the people who do cancel, a lot of them are just like, I'm i'm not ready yet.
17:51.36
Tyler King
Like I like your product, but I just started my business and this is just, it's not worth paying for yet or so something along those lines. There's a lot of that.
17:58.71
r
So you're, so you're hoping to get the non consumption conversions from this remarketing, not necessarily the, yes, the switching CRMs.
18:07.27
Tyler King
Yeah, ah or I think there's also a decent set of people who are like, OK, my Salesforce contract is ending in July or whatever. I'm going to look around, but not necessarily switch.
18:19.19
r
Hmm.
18:19.85
Tyler King
So those types of people, maybe the next time maybe this year when their contract ends, they'll look again. ah But yes, I'm not expecting a massive number of conversions from this. But hopefully, it just kind of these people were warm leads at one point.
18:35.32
Tyler King
maybe we can just kind of stay top of mind for them for whenever they are looking for a CRM.
18:41.16
r
yeah i I wish told him that you're never going to do it again.
18:42.25
Tyler King
So we'll see. I don't know. It's about 10,000 people, though. I don't I actually haven't even seen the copy yet. We haven't sent it yet.
18:50.42
r
Okay.
18:50.84
Tyler King
um Well, I want to be like
18:51.21
r
Don't tell him that you're never going to do it again.
18:55.25
r
Just say, Hey, this is, we're we're not going to abuse this. Just say, we're not going to be abusive of you, of your email.
18:59.73
Tyler King
Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. I do think like these things do go cold. Like ah we could email someone who did a free trial in 2010 and I don't think that.
19:08.07
r
It'll bounce.
19:09.29
Tyler King
Yeah, yeah, it wouldn't be worth the, the reputational risk relative to like how interested they would actually be. So you you may be right. I don't, I don't think it's likely that we're going to want to email this particular cohort again anyway, and but I could see us, we'll see how it goes. I could see every year or every six months, find, you know, find the right cohort for that time period where they're still fresh enough. They still remember who we are. Um, that's the hope here.
19:35.47
r
Yep. Makes sense.
19:37.33
Tyler King
Um, so yeah, I'll, I'll, thank you.
19:38.87
r
I'm proud of you, Tyler.
19:42.22
Tyler King
Gradually over time, I'm losing all of my values, aren't I?
19:47.04
r
gee Yeah.
19:48.33
Tyler King
Uh, no, emailing people isn't, I know I'm part of the problem.
19:49.83
r
You're buying cars. You're, you're, you're, you're emailing, uh, deactivated users. Oh my gosh.
19:57.68
Tyler King
Man, then next we're going to be selling their data. That's not true, customers. We're never going to do that. OK. I thought I'd give a form update. Again, mostly measuring like how many ah submissions we're getting for a public form builder. um Definitely like hit a lull over the holidays, which is expected.
20:16.85
Tyler King
you know basically I assume this is true for any B2B sass. But for us, anything from Thanksgiving to New Year's, things like really, really slow down. Our free trial pipeline drops. Just people aren't logging in nearly as much. But especially the week before Christmas through New Year's is really slow. So anyway, the metrics have been really slow. But we're it's January 2, 9.30 AM. Basically, we we're barely in the New Year. It has already really bounced back.
20:43.10
Tyler King
um
20:43.46
r
Nice.
20:44.49
Tyler King
Yeah, the trailing seven day average, or not average, over the last seven days, we've had 227 submissions to our forms. The previous high over any seven day period was 131. So it's like a 75% increase over our previous high.
21:01.18
r
And remind me your target.
21:03.07
Tyler King
ah So our first goal is to hit 350 per week by April 1st. I think it's possible we're there already. Because again, like the last seven days includes like five of those days or holidays. um So I think it's possible we're pretty close. Now, some things happened in the meantime. like You would never time it this way intentionally, but it just so happened we got... but like If you go back two episodes and three episodes, you were kind of...
21:31.11
Tyler King
pushing me a little to say, like why don't you just open the floodgates, like let anyone use it, and so on. I forget, I think I mentioned this on the podcast, but the reason I said no, or not no, but the reason I pushed back was like we want to be able to manually onboard people to help them activate. And the compromise we found is like now anyone can go to this feature in the CRM and there's like a, do you want help onboarding or do you want to just do it yourself? So it's effectively launched. This happened without a lot of fanfare, but effectively the form builder got launched to all of our customers. um And we sent out a newsletter.
22:04.07
Tyler King
it was like December 20th or something. So this was not a great time to announce a new launch, but we did like announce, Hey, anyone can go use the form builder now.
22:13.91
r
This is exciting.
22:15.89
Tyler King
Yeah. Um, now that, so the good news is that obviously led to a spike. The bad news is like, we have 26,000 users. Uh, we, we need the spike to be bigger than it has been so far.
22:27.94
Tyler King
Now I think like, because it was December, it will be.
22:31.35
r
and Do you have any analysis on the, you like who the users are that are, that are power, that are using this at all? Like are any of them recent signups is what I'm getting at.
22:43.06
Tyler King
Um, okay. That's a good question. Let me pull this up. So just yeah.
22:48.01
r
And and here's here's where I'm going with this while you're pulling that up. like Basically, you have enough usage now where you should be able to identify who the ideal user is or like pockets of ideal users or personas that use this.
23:01.28
r
And hypothetically, like as you add new signups, you should be able to identify lookalikes to market this feature to more aggressively than others.
23:06.67
Tyler King
Mm-hmm.
23:07.90
r
um And that's that's the way you go next once you've saturated your database.
23:11.76
Tyler King
Yeah, that's a good point. um Looking at this, so I'm just going to go in reverse order ah by submissions over the last week. The top person signed up in 2021.
23:22.53
Tyler King
The next person signed up like last December, like like less than a month ago. um Last September, last September, last November.
23:29.31
r
That's really good.
23:30.68
Tyler King
Yeah, so they're all people or they're not all but.
23:33.40
r
Last 90 days and ups.
23:35.12
Tyler King
um Of the top 10, only two of them signed up before 2024.
23:41.84
r
And it sounds like a lot of them signed up in the last 90 days.
23:44.76
Tyler King
Yeah, it looks like it.
23:45.76
r
That's very encouraging.
23:48.49
Tyler King
Um, it makes sense because like we launched it to new users before we launched it to our existing user base. So I, I'm sure we'll get a lot more older users on here. Um, over time, but yeah, it does seem like, like, the yeah, the, the number two person who's gotten 39 submissions over the last week.
24:06.37
Tyler King
Uh, yeah, they signed up December 16th. So that's pretty recent.
24:09.77
r
Woo hoo. Yeah, so ah it'd be interesting to sort of track that and look at like, what are these people, what are they, are there industry commonalities? Are there size commonalities?
24:19.88
r
um but What's driving this?
24:21.51
Tyler King
Yeah.
24:22.00
r
And and then you can market those, you know, to to new users as use case, yeah use case studies um as well as existing ones.
24:28.83
Tyler King
Yeah, I like that a lot. I think we need more data to to really find a pattern. Because like even though we got 227 submissions, you know one user got 65 of those.
24:41.34
Tyler King
um there There are only nine users who have meaningful activity over the last week.
24:41.70
r
you
24:47.45
Tyler King
I think, again, once we get into the year a little more, I think that'll go to, I bet we have 15 or so. But I'm still not sure it's enough to find a real pattern. But but but we will eventually.
24:57.51
r
Of course.
24:58.54
Tyler King
yeah The other thing we haven't started doing yet that seems like someone listening might be like, why why haven't you been doing this? It's pretty obvious. like The reason we care about getting form submissions is the hypothesis is every time someone submits a form,
25:11.51
Tyler King
but like The person submitting a form is a stranger to us. right Our customer creates the form, and then their customer submits it. The person submitting it, it's an impression for them to see less annoying CRM. ah we need we like The idea is hopefully some small percentage of those people click the Powered by Less Knowing CRM link and check out Less Knowing CRM. Tracking that, and like are we getting click-throughs? Are any of those people signing up for free trials? That type of thing is a pretty obvious like thing we will need to do at some point. My logic for ignoring that so far is just the numbers need to be higher. If we're only getting 200 submissions a week, like there's just no way that that's enough traffic to be worth optimizing. So the plan right now is like, let's get the traffic and then let's optimize it once the traffic's there.
25:56.98
r
Makes sense to me. Leverage over optimization is what you're saying.
26:01.42
Tyler King
Ooh, that is what I'm saying. Look at that.
26:05.73
r
Yes.
26:06.68
Tyler King
Um, so yeah, those are, I've got a few more things I could talk about, but anything else on your list?
26:11.49
r
I just, I've got one more update. Um, and then I have a meaty topic after that. So maybe I give my update, give it, I'd love to, if you have any other updates, we could go through those. And then I would love your input on 2025 marketing planning, um, as like a meaty topic today, cause I'm going to be spending a lot of time on that the next two weeks.
26:23.17
Tyler King
Yeah.
26:26.41
Tyler King
All right. Let's just do all your stuff then for the rest of the episode.
26:28.37
r
Okay. All right. Are you sure?
26:30.68
Tyler King
Yeah, because I don't think we got time to cover it all. So let's do your meaty top.
26:34.00
r
oh
26:34.57
Tyler King
Well, you can do your small one and then your meaty one.
26:36.94
r
ah Okay. Are you sure?
26:38.46
Tyler King
Yeah, go for it.
26:39.26
r
Okay. All right. Update on lead purchasing. So, um, you'd asked for this last week. We, we we sort of stumbled on, uh, an experiment with purchasing leads in October and November and then December.
26:49.88
r
And we've got really solid initial results and then it dipped, uh, because leads just stopped coming in during the holiday, like the Thanksgiving holiday.
27:00.36
r
And then it spiked again in December. And so, uh, we've got a trick, like kind of an ongoing sort of, uh, inbound, like I don't call it inbound, but like purchase lead sort of trickle.
27:11.13
r
That's, you know, two to one, one or two a week, um, which adds up over the course of a month or multiple months, um, that are people who are searching online for health insurance with, uh, in Utah.
27:18.34
Tyler King
Mm hmm.
27:23.83
r
And so, uh, we're building pipeline on these. Um, we haven't had a closed one yet, but, uh, we, we expect this to happen, um, shortly. Um, so, so that, I just wanted to share that that seems to be working. Um, and it, it, it does appear that we're based on the conversion rates of these that we're willing to pay somewhere between, uh, depending on, you know, the conversion rates and the size of the lead, a hundred and $250, uh, per like type of lead here.
27:49.85
r
And this is a very qualified lead.
27:50.04
Tyler King
Yeah.
27:51.01
r
This is ah a lead who's like engaged actively in a buying cycle for health insurance. Like they've put in a lot of information online saying, I want to quote, and this is a business insurance lead. This is not a consumer insurance lead.
28:02.96
r
So anyway, I just wanted to share that, like still too early to say, but this is definitely something we want to continue to do in 2025 or at least let it run for another few months while we let this pipeline ah close out.
28:15.66
Tyler King
yeah
28:16.20
r
My question to you on this is like, as part of playing 2025, is this something that you would still sit like, it's, to me, it's still very much an experiment. It's not something that's like ready for doubling down. Um, but it does, I think it has made me start thinking about, uh, marketing a little bit differently and that, Oh, well, if we think about marketing in terms of.
28:38.05
r
we were willing to pay X dollars to get JD a conversation with a target, like an an ideal customer, then we can do some more creative things to generate the to generate that lead than we're doing right now.
28:44.40
Tyler King
Yeah.
28:50.49
Tyler King
Yeah. I mean, okay. my A lot of thoughts ran through my head as you were talking and I'm. just going to start talking. This won't be very organized, but like one thought that comes to mind is I've, so I do very little work for like up health, but I'm in a lot of the meetings where you and JD are figuring out where what he's really, JD is doing pretty much all the work, right? He, my impression is up and aside from this one experiment, basically everything he's doing is like top of funnel. He's just doing cold outreach to people. They have not expressed any interest in health insurance when he reaches out to them. and it's like a like He has to get tons of volume because obviously the conversion rate is going to be low when you do that. It's a long process, very labor intensive.
29:32.27
Tyler King
Like, has he even felt prior to this, what it's like for someone to just come in and be like, Hey, I want insurance. Oh, you sell insurance. Great. 30 minutes later, we're done.
29:43.17
Tyler King
Um, like that feels like it would be a lot more satisfying for him. Does that sound right?
29:46.79
r
yeah Yeah, 100%.
29:49.35
Tyler King
Yeah. Cause
29:50.57
r
Sales reps, that's what a sales rep wants us.
29:53.19
Tyler King
Yeah.
29:53.46
r
They don't want to do all that.
29:54.54
Tyler King
And I know JD has like lots of experience prior to this startup, but like within the conflict, we went through this, a less knowing serum where we used to write a bunch of blog posts, like seven tips for sales reps to blah, blah, blah.
30:04.73
Tyler King
And then we hoped someone would read that and then join our newsletter and then, you know, dot, dot, dot. And. For better or worse, basically all our leads coming in now are just they they already want to buy. And that's a whole different world. We've also talked before about how like leg up health is such a labor. It's a service business more than it is a product business. And how do we scale the service side? That's like a huge.
30:25.76
Tyler King
point of leverage, if JD doesn't spend you know hours and hours and hours every week doing the the cold outreach part to get to narrow them down to just the warm leads, if he can just start with the warm leads, I think that might be worth even more than it seems like right now because it allows us to scale JD. JD could potentially serve five times or 10 times as many customers if he wasn't doing that.
30:47.66
r
Restating what you're saying is if, if, if, if we make more marketing plan, just take away JD's time, like give Jay Jay the time he's spending on prospecting back to service customers, then that is the best marketing plan.
30:59.51
Tyler King
Mm hmm.
31:01.31
r
and If it were, yeah, assuming it generates the same volume of growth.
31:01.71
Tyler King
Yeah, if it works.
31:07.16
Tyler King
Right. So I i think it it could very easily be worth spending a lot of money on this. I don't know. Every time there's a new, with less knowing serum, every time there's a new idea like this, in a sense I feel like a fool because I get real excited and I dream about how good it could be and it's never that good. And that will probably be the case here. But I do think the dreaming is still a valuable exercise to kind of give you the enthusiasm you need to go after something, even if it almost always falls short.
31:32.73
Tyler King
To me, this is the most exciting growth idea I've heard for leg up health. And yes, I agree.
31:38.87
r
So so you're so you're so if we if we transition into 2025 marketing planning, like lead purchasing is at the top of your list in terms of a growth lever to to attempt to pull responsibly until we prove it out.
31:39.91
Tyler King
It's still an experiment, but it's a good one.
31:53.85
Tyler King
Yeah, and and part of the like when you say it's an experiment, I think we should be asking, what like a real experiment has a hypothesis. and it like like There are things we should be testing, and I think it should be more specific than just, does this work? So let me give a ah little anecdote from the early days of Listening CRM. A lot of our early growth came from Google AdWords, ah which was a lot cheaper and more viable at the time for a company like us.
32:19.48
Tyler King
We were getting it to work. We were getting some customers. And then like at at some point, it just seemed to click. like I think we kind of hit product market fit. This was working. I took $10,000 out of my IRA, ah which may be not advisable, but whatever, I did it, and put it into Google AdWords. But I didn't spread it out over like however long we wanted to spend $10,000. The goal was spend it as fast as possible. like Spend it in three days or something like that.
32:46.32
Tyler King
because the experiment was like, can this ramp up? Like, is this something we should not that we were ever really going to raise money, but like, is this something we should be financing? Like, how profitable is this? How how scalable is this? but It was it. I just lit the money on fire. It didn't work at all is the answer. But that that that answered the question of like, OK, it's working when we're spending $500 a month, is it going to work if we spend $2,000 a day?
33:13.77
Tyler King
And the answer was absolutely not. I'd be asking questions like that.
33:15.36
r
There's two, there's two questions, right? There's one is like, can this work at the current volume or like the volume that we are paying for now? And that's one for the first hypothesis. The second hypothesis is can we ramp this and maintain that conversion?
33:29.26
Tyler King
Yeah, can this be our only way of getting leads, basically?
33:29.30
r
And yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:32.66
Tyler King
This in word of mouth.
33:34.37
r
Cool. Yeah. I, um, that's a good question. I just wrote some notes down on that and I will think about that one.
33:39.29
Tyler King
OK.
33:40.08
r
Um,
33:41.04
Tyler King
And sorry, let me let me elaborate a little. The reason I'm saying this is I think it's very obvious if something's working, you start to scale it. But I think there's a difference between we're scaling it with the goal of making more money and growing faster versus we're scaling this to test if scaling it is possible.
33:57.46
Tyler King
like It's still an experiment. You can you can go for scale and and still have an experimental mindset is my point.
34:04.66
r
Yep. Makes sense. Yep. Um, okay.
34:07.89
Tyler King
um
34:08.58
r
So, so, okay. So I wrote down word of mouth too. yeah yeah That was a, that's an important one. Like that's our primary sort of a growth channel where we we get referrals, we get a bounce backs, we get kind of people just hearing about us.
34:14.25
Tyler King
Yeah, for sure.
34:22.22
r
Um, and and that just is just us to contain to invest in our, one of our core values, which is service over sales, um, and our differentiation of customer service. And so like, that's just going to continue, um, lead purchasing, um,
34:34.19
r
is number two, I have events here as number three, just as ah as an experimentation. um we We have done this in the past and um and ah in a very untargeted way, like where we sponsored ah like kind of ah groups or chambers of commerce of businesses but didn't really attend in person.
34:53.26
r
The the the the different thing that we're gonna do this this year is pick specific events that have a lot of our ICPs attending and actually attend that event versus just like putting our name on something um and hoping that the networking that we do at that event creates an immediate opportunity um or sets up opportunity for the the open enrollment period, the next open enrollment period.
35:04.94
Tyler King
Mm hmm.
35:16.07
r
um So there' we we have two of those happening, and I think the same hypothesis applies here. You know, one is like, what can we get out of these per dollar spent? um And then the the second is, you know, can we ramp this? um And I think for the events, there's a lot of opportunity to ramp events if it works. um But it's, you know, it kind of goes against what you said earlier, which is one of the considerations, one of the lenses I need to look at this marketing through is what's the effort level? What's the labor required to to run the program? And the event is labor intensive. um
35:50.43
r
it's It's perhaps more and labor intensive than cold calling, but maybe higher um you know sort of ah hit rate. where I don't know if they're right. Maybe it's like less ah yeah higher labor like like more labor intensive, and but but more like brute force.
35:59.78
Tyler King
Yeah.
36:05.63
Tyler King
If you count JD's time as free, the ah ROI on events might be higher. But then if you factor in like, well, what if we had to pay him, like what if we had to hire another person to do this or whatever, then that that might, we we had this exact same thing, uh, on our end, we're like, we're paying X dollars for a software advice lead, which is basically what you're doing with buying leads.
36:10.49
r
and
36:25.60
Tyler King
Um, versus we're paying Y dollars for like an advertisement, like a PPC ad and. It's tempting to be like, okay, our number is $300. We'll pay $300 to acquire a user or whatever. But with the ad click, it's like we pay the ad click and that's it. like you know They come in, they sign up, they they onboard themselves. With ah buying the lead, we have to then call them back and forth, multiple phone calls. So there was a lot of hidden costs with buying leads that there wasn't with the advertising. um Same concept, I think, right?
37:01.50
r
Yep. Yep. Um, okay. And then, so, so are you supportive of doing events?
37:08.05
Tyler King
Yeah, I'm supportive of trying it out ah for sure. like Okay, hang on. Let's dream for a second about like what what would we want the company to look like and like You and I might have a different answer for this, but my dream if if I'm the CEO and it's my business and it fits my DNA, like what I probably want is let's get the business to a place where it's making good money, but not like, you know let's say it's making $1 million dollars a year or something like that. And then let's just grow it 10% or 15% per year, which I think could potentially come purely from word of mouth. You're not going to double the the business year over year from word of mouth, but you might grow it 10%.
37:51.49
Tyler King
And then like at that point, you know maybe there's a little marketing and sales going on here or there, but it's basically just to serve it. like it's It's just providing value to customers. I don't know if that's your vision or JD's vision, but that's like how I'm running Lessowing CRM right now, more or less. um And then the question is just how do you get there? And like in a perfect world, you get there by just buying leads and working really hard and converting them. um that's my That would be my dream. I don't know. How does that vision sound to you?
38:19.56
r
Yeah, I think like getting to 1 million at 10 to 15% a year is definitely seems like way easier than what I'm trying to do. um But maybe that's maybe that's my problem is i don't I haven't really thought about like the first first base here in a more less aggressive way, I guess.
38:28.90
Tyler King
Yeah.
38:39.61
r
um And and that's that's an interesting thing. So um I don't know if that would be my goal, but yeah, 1 million is in my head. like I agree with that number. um Uh, but the 10 to 15% a year, like that I think is where we're we're different.
38:51.64
Tyler King
Sure.
38:53.18
r
And then like, if I'm wanting to grow at 20, 25% a year, all of a sudden, the, they the, the things you have to learn on the way to 1 million become a little bit more, uh, intense, intensive.
39:04.03
r
Um, I think, uh, you know, to be able to pull levers when you get there.
39:09.20
Tyler King
Yeah. um It reminds me of something Jason Lemkin, I haven't followed him in a long time, but like so maybe this is outdated and he would use different numbers. But I think he used to say, like for a SaaS business, there's 0 to 1 million, and then 1 million to 10, and then 10 plus. or Or maybe it's really just like over 1 million. he he Basically, my memory of what he said was,
39:29.20
Tyler King
Everyone gets to a million in different ways because you're just hustling. you're you know Maybe you've got some connections, maybe whatever. But once you hit a certain scale, everyone grows bigger than that scale in the same way. Now, that's with B2B SaaS, which is not the business like Up Health is in. But the point I'm taking away from that is that the growth levers, once you hit a certain scale, are different from the growth levers when you're really small. And so maybe like the question is, what's the way to get to a million?
39:59.84
Tyler King
I don't even know that this answers the original question of like, are events a good idea versus other things. But um I guess my point is like, well, yeah, I don't know what my point is.
40:10.27
Tyler King
you What do you think?
40:10.37
r
what What I take away from what you're saying is don't do more, like don't over complicate this more than you have to to get to a million dollars. And so like define the goal and like.
40:19.34
Tyler King
Yeah.
40:21.71
r
At the end of the day, i a million is in my head. It's what's been in my head for a long time. um So that number, like thank you for throwing it out there because it's very tangible. um where where I think the 10 to 15% a year doesn't actually matter um until you like you figure that out once you get there.
40:35.70
Tyler King
Right, right. Ignore that.
40:37.60
r
That's what I'm taking away from what you're saying. And so get to 1 million as efficiently and quickly as possible. um and then ideal you know Hypothetically, like however you get there, you're going to be able to maintain a 10 to 15% growth rate off of whatever you've been doing, hypothetically, like most likely.
40:53.09
Tyler King
Yeah, and let me let me add on to that, though, that like there's there's a bunch of different ways the business could look at a million dollars. One version of it is it's JD full-time and Rick full-time outsourcing most of the growth. It's largely service plus market, like really scalable growth channels. It's a real crunch during open enrollment. Serving a million dollars worth of revenue with two people would be very challenging, but not, I don't think, impossible. That's like one extreme version of it. The other version of it is like there are five more JDs.
41:23.61
Tyler King
Each person can service 200,000 in revenue themselves. There's a lot of, ah or maybe maybe there's three JDs and then two salespeople, like however you break it down, but it's like a bigger team and all that.
41:33.42
r
you
41:34.89
Tyler King
These are very different companies, especially because one of those companies can support you, Rick, getting the salary you need to work on it full-time, and one of those companies can't. And if your goal is to grow it a lot faster beyond 1 million, you've got to be full-time on this.
41:51.83
Tyler King
There's just no way you're going to be a part-time CEO and and hit your ambitions, I don't think.
41:52.16
r
Yeah. Yeah.
41:57.98
r
yeah So, um, that's, it I like, I like what you're, you're, you're adding some like vision. to this like It's very useful, I think, when you're building out planning to to think, like if you're building out planning for this year to have a vision for three years, where yeah why what what is this youre supposed where where are you actually trying to get to with this year? um And so what you're helping me think through is like, okay, the the the the the milestone the measurement milestone is one million, but like,
42:22.69
r
There's lots of strategic decisions that need to be made in terms of how you get to one million so that you're you know ah the composition of the business at $1 million dollars is something that you'd like and you want to to work in or you want to continue to invest in. And that's a good thing to think about.
42:37.37
r
um And I think the the lenses that i was I was thinking about when, so I wrote down a bunch of notes about when you were giving me feedback on the channels about the different types of like considerations for each channel.
42:49.99
r
One is money, like how much does it cost? That's like, actually I think like that's an important thing to consider. Cause if it gets too expensive, we can't bootstrap it.
42:59.61
Tyler King
Yeah.
42:59.59
r
So there's gotta be sort of like a reinvestment opportunity. Like our cashflow allows us to reinvest in this channel and grow through this channel. ah like the the The second is um time to value, which is like, how quickly does it pay back? Which is kind of the same question of money. like it's how much is it like what What's the upfront cost plus the payback period?
43:19.48
r
Um, second is labor intensity. Um, and I think that's where I'm going. Like I'm probably very labor and labor intense sensitive because we don't have a lot of labor and the cost of labor, uh, because our business is a labor intensive service business. Um, the opportunity cost is so high. So ideally we want something that costs as little as possible, pays back quickly, does not require a whole lot of labor.
43:47.31
r
Um, like that's kind of where I'm biased towards. That's what we should prioritize first. And I guess that's true of every business though.
43:51.04
Tyler King
yeah
43:52.27
r
When I say it out loud, it's like, why, who wouldn't want to do that? Um, but, but, but I guess it excludes us from maybe trying some of these high labor, high costs, high payback period. They should just not even be considered.
44:03.16
Tyler King
Yeah, like a high labor or a high cost thing where the people are ah top of funnel, probably not a good idea.
44:13.41
Tyler King
High labor where they're top of funnel, maybe. but but But what I mean, if they're top of funnel, it's it's high labor by definition because you have to nurture them down. um So either like pay money to to start them out lower in the funnel or expect the cheaper channels to start out higher in the funnel and it's more of a labor trade off.
44:29.12
r
Don't do both. yeah like it's like If there's ah there's a matrix of you know money and payback period increase you know and then labor intensity, we don't want to be in the high labor, ah high money ah situation.
44:30.08
Tyler King
Yeah.
44:36.06
Tyler King
Yeah.
44:42.16
Tyler King
yeah Yeah, I like that.
44:42.14
r
We either want to be in low labor, high money, or low, low, or a high, low.
44:48.89
Tyler King
A thing I like about both buying leads, but especially events, is that you can turn it on and off really easily. um Just don't do any growth at all. Don't do any events, certainly, during open enrollment, right? But like how do you fill the time productively during the slow parts of the year? I think both of these you can ramp up and down, which is really great.
45:10.15
r
Yeah, yeah, ah ability to turn off and on is, you know, is another consideration. Turn off, turn on, seasonality.
45:15.75
Tyler King
Yeah, there's probably more. like You could probably like score channels like, oh, it's good at this, it's bad at this, it's bad at that, it's good at that.
45:23.22
r
I like this a lot. um I think that's one of the challenges I've been have been having is like, I like all these ideas, but like, how do I prioritize? um the The other, um so we've got two minutes left. I just want to run through the the other three I had on the list. Strategic referral programs is another one. This is a ah very good one actually. I think, um so ah one of one of my my local friends who runs ah some small businesses and ah has ah has a kind of a growing small business membership business um is interested in a strategic referral program with leg up health.
45:55.46
r
It requires some unique design, but it's probably much closer to lead purchasing than it is to, let's just call it like ah event marketing. Um, and so that seems like a really good one, just like without, I could put it through the major, this like assessment that we just came up with, but like, that seems like a really, really solid ah thing to try. Um, where we're getting inbound leads, we're paying money for low labor. Um, uh, so, so quick thoughts on that one thumbs up.
46:22.02
Tyler King
Yeah, i've it you're thinking in an experimental mode right now. So I think another question is like how much effort is there to experiment? Sometimes a new experiment like this is like, oh, we need to do a co-branding website.
46:33.02
Tyler King
And we need to set up an integration so that the attribution works. As long as there's none of that stuff, then yeah, go for it.
46:37.47
r
I think the only cost here is is is thinking through the initial referral agreement and then signing the ah agreement.
46:46.89
Tyler King
Yeah.
46:46.90
r
Like the compensation is the is the the tough part here.
46:51.21
Tyler King
Yeah. Yeah.
46:51.99
r
um
46:52.22
Tyler King
I say, go for it.
46:52.68
r
ah SEO, I had on here, but now I'm going. High labor, low payback period, ah but low cost.
46:57.61
Tyler King
Also a very uncertain time for SEO. Like it still works now.
46:59.75
r
Yeah.
47:01.57
Tyler King
Will it work three years from now? the The answer may be yes, but it may be no. Like that just feels like one to punt on to me.
47:09.04
r
I would love to talk about that another time. Um, then the fifth one, the last one here I have on here is target account marketing and ABM. Um, this is something that we got some of our largest customers from this year where JD was calling on target accounts, um, and found them at the right time.
47:23.52
r
And I do feel like there's something here. I just don't know how to, I don't think JD doing what he was doing last year is the way to go. Um, so anyway, I know we're, yes, but more strategically than we did last year, like more targeted.
47:29.54
Tyler King
Target accounts, you you're just talking about outbound sales here, right?
47:35.59
Tyler King
Okay. So yeah, I'd be comparing that against event marketing, not lead, like not buying leads. Like it's what's the top of funnel thing.
47:44.42
r
So do I? Yeah.
47:45.90
Tyler King
Those should be fighting with each other, I think.
47:48.14
r
Yeah. And probably we should try both and see who wins. Uh, honestly.
47:51.44
Tyler King
Yeah.
47:52.72
r
Um, well, thank you. I, that was, this was super helpful. Um, I appreciate you.
47:55.03
Tyler King
Great.
47:56.09
r
Let me prioritize that today.
47:57.82
Tyler King
Absolutely. Well, I'm sure talk more but I'll let you go talk to you in a couple weeks Bye
48:01.40
r
All right. Thanks for the, if you'd like to, yep. If you'd like to review past topics and show notes, visit start up to last.com. See you next time.