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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. Let's get into the episode.
Tammy Brown:Well, hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the debrief with Matthew Steven Brown. I am Tammy Brown, and I'm honored to jump into the cohost seat this season with him. Let's get into today's episode because we have some fantastic questions that I'm really interested to see how you're gonna answer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Alright.
Tammy Brown:This question comes from Kim from South Lake Tahoe. Says, pastor Matt mentioned in his sermon that without private purity, we can't have public power. And I immediately thought of the many well known pastors slash teachers with hidden sexual sin in their lives that seem to have thriving ministries? How do you explain this? I'm so happy to hear you answer this because we talk a lot about this privately.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. Let's see those answers come out now on the show.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well what I would say Kim, is nothing's private forever.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So it all comes out, and the reason that you said there are many well known pastors and teachers with hidden sexual sin is because it wasn't hidden, it came out. And they've lost everything. They've lost position, they've lost power, prestige, and very rarely have I seen someone that has experienced something like that ever rise to the level. You know, they might be on a podcast, they might get hired at another church, but it destroys lives. I had a good friend of mine that had an affair like this, and went through restoration, and ultimately ended up taking his own life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was terrible, left his wife and kids behind. Was really, really painful to watch, because it just destroyed everything about his life. And so here's what I mean by you can't have public power without private purity. So if I want the Holy Spirit to speak through me, okay? That's not to say that people, like you could hire an actor from Hollywood, give them a script and say, preach this sermon, and I think that it would affect and change some people's lives.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But there's a difference in my life when I'm right with God, when I'm in the word, when I'm praying, when I'm fasting, there's a different level of power and authority that I communicate that is not there when Tammy and I have been in a fight. Maybe I've skipped a couple of days of reading my bible. Maybe I'm wrestling through some private sin. I can tell you, I am not the same person Mhmm. Without that private purity.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I don't just mean sexual purity, I mean purity of thought. I mean purity of anxiety. I mean, a better word for purity is wholeness, because when when I'm whole, like when I'm I'm complete, let's use that word, when I'm complete in God and I see myself as complete in him, or I recognize where I'm incomplete, where I've fallen short and I repent, and I invite God into that situation, it's such a better place for me to be. And I can just tell you, Kim, and I know you don't know me personally, but there is power in my preaching, and in my life, in my parenting, in my being a spouse, when I am right with God. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When I'm not right with God, there is a loss of power. And if you haven't experienced that power, so the book of Acts says when the Holy Spirit comes upon us, we will experience power. The word is dunamis in Greek, which is where we get the English word dynamite. So I think God's trying to make a point. There's power in our lives when we are right with God, and when we're not right with God, we're on our own.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that's what I mean by that. You know, most of these preachers that fail, people that are close to them know something's wrong. Sometimes they're surprised. I mean, people are really good at hiding things I guess. I'm not, I don't believe in hiding, I don't know that there's any way to hide in a digital age.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We're being recorded everywhere, videoed everywhere, my wife, and seven pastors are tracking me on Life360 everywhere I go, okay? And I'm not opposed to that, I invite that, it's extra accountability. You know, I'm not gonna meet with a woman alone, I'm just not gonna do that. You know, if I struggle with same sex, I wouldn't meet with a guy alone. I mean, just wouldn't do that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I would want to exercise judgment because I think that there's power when right with God. So I'm sorry that people fail, but you need to know they failed then and they'll fail now. I mean, I was just reading Peter last night when we were at the gym, you were in the sauna, and the sauna had like 10 dudes in it, and I was like, they can't do that. Because dudes are Matt
Tammy Brown:hates the crowded sauna.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I hate sweaty men, dude, it's just disgusting. So she's in there with like women who have all gotten their nails done, know, and they all smell great.
Tammy Brown:Everybody's sweet Dies
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:smell like they've wrestled a stray dog. You know, it's just like disgusting. So I was up on a treadmill and I was listening to Peter and reading it. I don't know if you've ever done that, but on the Bible app you can listen and read, and that's very very powerful. And I was just thinking about him saying, hey look, those who have left us, they weren't a part of us.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so there were fakers even in the century. Judas was a faker. You know, Hebrews said they've tasted of the fruit, they've experienced the work of God, and yet they've denied Jesus. And so you know there are people who walk for a season. Jesus, and we'll get into this in the book of Matthew, he talks about the seed that is scattered and where it falls.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And sometimes it doesn't grow at all, sometimes it's stolen by a bird, and other times it grows for a minute, but it withers in the sun because it has no root. And so there are extremely talented people, people who can sing, people who can speak, people who can write. You know, I think about Rabbi Zacharias, man, just someone that touched my life and blessed my life. I'm gonna guess, and I don't know him personally, I'm gonna guess in the latter stage of his life there was a power that was missing. People noticed it, but they didn't know exactly what it was, because he had physical gifts.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so here's what I would say. There's a difference, Kim, between gifting and anointing. People are gifted. Every person in this room, and you can't see them, but there's four other people in this room that are helping us produce this podcast, and there's Tammy, there's myself. All of us, all six of us are gifted.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Whether we're right with God or not, he has created us with gifts. Then there's a thing called anointing. And one of the scariest verses in the Bible is when the Holy Spirit leaves King Saul who was anointed, and he didn't know he was gone. That verse scares me to death. And why is that?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:King Saul was tall, handsome, and he was a great warrior. And he, in his own giftedness, could rely on himself, but when it came down to it, the Holy Spirit had left, and the prophet Samuel had already anointed the next king. And I always remember that, and I think, okay. I don't want that to ever Mhmm. Happen to me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So years ago, I did a series on love languages.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It had to be 02/2001. February.
Tammy Brown:A long long time
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:ago. A long time ago. Sandals was running about 200 people. During this eight week series, Sandals grew from, let's call it, 250 people to a thousand people. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Think think about two months. We grew that fast. And I was realizing I was a really good communicator. I could make people laugh. I could move people manipulatively to do what I want them to do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It came to the last week, I spent more time, Kim, researching the shirt and buying the shirt I was gonna wear, than prepping the message. I'm not kidding you. I heard the Holy Spirit say this. You want to do this on your own? Go ahead.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I walked up on stage, and I was all by myself, and it was horrendous. And I remember I was walking in the lobby, and there was this woman in the lobby, and let's just call her a Matt Brown fan, and she said to me, what was wrong tonight? She said something was off. And something wasn't off, something was gone. And it was the anointing and the power of the Holy Spirit.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I feel like the Lord has always been really good to me, keeping me humble, keeping me close. Remember when you were kids, I don't know if you guys played tetherball? So when we were kids, you played We
Tammy Brown:tetherball?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Hated. So tetherball is like this hard, very hard, give a kid concussion
Tammy Brown:Kids hit you in the face.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, volleyball. I don't know. In the eighties, man, you just get wounded in PE.
Tammy Brown:I would've hated playing So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know because I would never let you in. But but it's tethered to a pole. So there's a rope. And so what I believe the Lord has done with challenges, back to last week's question, does the Lord test us? I think the Lord has created scenarios in my life with my knees, I had nine knee surgeries from, what, '22 to '35.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, eight knee surgeries. It was horrendous. I've had a bad back, I've had issues, chronic anxiety in my thirties.
Tammy Brown:Me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So what that's caused is me to need God. It's tethered me to God. So I've needed him because I can't do it on on my own. And it's the reason I think celebrities implode.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like think about your favorite band, your favorite actor, you know, they're struggling, they're serving coffee, they can't pay their rent, you know, they're you know, think about Eminem songs, and I'm not promoting him, but his early songs are talking about growing up on 8 Mile and not having money for milk and all of these things, right? And then you get all of those things, and you're on a private jet, and before you know it, the very thing that made you powerful is gone. And so what I think is, as a pastor, I gotta constantly go back to when I was knocking on doors, didn't know if anybody was gonna show up, have a servant's heart, thank God for everything that he does, and all of his blessings, right? So every blessing in your life is gravy. Like it's just all gravy, and I know young people are like, what does that mean?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's just extra. You know, it's something, it's the icing on the cake, it's just something better. And so we have to trust that. But here's what I can tell you. Pastors lose power.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now it may not happen as quickly as we would like.
Tammy Brown:And it may not coincide with the influence they still have just yet.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So, but they're not gonna get away with it. And I had a very influential pastor that struggles, and he let's not call him a pastor, let's call him a Christian influencer, and he has debilitating anxiety. And he told me one day in a moment of authenticity, he said, I'm just afraid people are gonna figure out I'm a fraud. That's the consequence of not walking in the power of God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So he can get up on stage, he can do the talk, he can grow his platform, but we're not made for that. We're not, I mean, you want to mess somebody up, make them rich and famous. Like that is the quickest way to destroy a person. We've got to be tethered to the gospel. Otherwise, we're lost.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We're lost. You know, I cannot tell you how many people at Sandals come here, they're struggling, they need God, they get a good job, they get a platform, they get famous, not in church Yeah.
Tammy Brown:I love this question because I think it is something you know, you've walked me through so many times is that we've we have seen people in positions of authority
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Tammy Brown:Have incredible influence publicly, and we've known them to be a very different person privately. And so that's kind of where I'm wondering, and the question is, is it public power, or is it public influence that we're still seeing?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:And it's sometimes it's been very quick, and sometimes it's been years where we will know a person privately Yeah. That lacks integrity or their character does not match their charisma. And we watch people we know. We've watched people in our church, people in the public just give the person power that doesn't match their character. And so they may have power, but oftentimes, we give that to the people that we follow, we support.
Tammy Brown:And truthfully, we don't care if their character matches up because we like the way they're influencing us. And so I I think that the private purity has to do with, like, exactly like you're saying. It's like, what do you care about? Do you care about the public influence, or do you care about who's right with God, about yourself being right with God? Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:And the influence that we're having in that capacity. Because we have sacrificed maybe some public
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Platforms because we weren't willing to compromise Yeah. On some private integrity that mattered to us. And we've seen other people maybe rise faster or have a farther influence
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:When their integrity hasn't matched. So that's a great question. One I have really struggled with and asked myself over the years, Kim, is like, why is God letting this person have such, I would say influence, you're saying power, when their character doesn't matter. But at the end of the day, God knows, and it does.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I would just say back. People are stupid. So I mean
Tammy Brown:Well, wasn't gonna say
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:it like that. People people will follow anybody, and and so what social media does is it feels like it gives us a proximity to a celebrity. Mhmm. So I'm commenting, they like my comment, it gives me a little high, so I'm in this very twisted, broken relationship that's not real. So it's feeding the follower, oh look, they commented or liked my comment, and it's feeding this social media celebrity who may not be reading their bible at all, or know anything, or you know, there's actually a statistic out that couples that post more frequently on Instagram have the worst marriages.
Tammy Brown:So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:like if you're constantly like, look at us, we're so in love, statistically speaking, this is not everybody, they have the worst marriage.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm. So And the highest divorce
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the highest divorce rate. So not everybody and everything that you're seeing on social media is
Tammy Brown:And people can have power in their platform that does not mean they're right with God. And that's not for God to work out. That's for us. Who who are we watching? Who are we following?
Tammy Brown:Who are we giving power to Yeah. That's outside of God? But it it is this is a real question, and I think constantly one that all of us have to be maturing in. Watching ourselves.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Being the referee, being the critic Well, just to calling out everybody. Yeah. But that's
Tammy Brown:not Constantly
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:that's not what the Lord wants you to do. Because because sometimes God might be using somebody, know. David was criticized. I mean, Jesus was crucified.
Tammy Brown:Well, do always say? Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Like, someone could really say something. You and I have had people in our life give us wisdom, speak into our life good things that were still true, and they had
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:A very broken side to them. And still, the things that they poured into us changed our lives. Like, it it's just not as simple Yeah. Maybe.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't know.
Tammy Brown:So okay. Next question comes from Zach right here in our hometown of Riverside. Before Jesus came to die for our sins, where did believers go when they died?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Alright. So the basic answer is shol. So that is the realm of the dead. It's just a place where people went. I don't know that Jews were in agreement on whether or not it was a conscious place or an unconscious place.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:As we move towards Maccabees, and Maccabees, Enoch, really everything leading up to Jesus, you know, that view kinds of changes. There's a heightened awareness and a belief in the resurrection. You know, and so that when Jesus comes and says I'm the resurrection and life, that's not new stuff, but it is controversial, because the Sadducees don't believe in the resurrection. They don't believe in a soul. The Pharisees do believe in resurrection, they do believe in the soul.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So there was division amongst the Jews. So you went to Shoal, so the best place to look at this in the New Testament is in Luke chapter 18, the story of the rich man and Lazarus. So the rich man dies and goes to Shoal, and Lazarus dies and goes to Shoal. So Lazarus is this poor man who is sitting at the table of the rich man, and dogs are licking his sores. It's a very graphic story.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what does that mean? He's not taken care of, he's not seen, he's not loved. So when he dies, angels carry him to the bosom of Abraham. So let's stop there. When the rich man dies, he goes to a place of torment.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But here's the thing, they can see each other. So I think that shol, it's the realm of the dead. So for those who are faithful, they are on Abraham's side, Abraham's bosom. So this is everybody leading up to Jesus, that's where they went. And so he is in agony.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So he's also in shul, but he's awaiting judgment, but he says, I'm in torment. And he asks for some water. Mhmm. And he says, please tell, and this is what's so telling, he says, please tell Lazarus, the servant, the poor man, to come over here and dip his fingers in water so that it may relieve my anguish. He still wants this guy to serve him, showing that he's unrepentant.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And Jesus says you can't. You can't cross over from one side to the other, there's this really hard word to translate, I think we translate it chasm, think the Great Canyon. You can't the Grand Canyon, sorry. You can't go from one side or the other, even if your name's Evel Knievel. Nobody knows who that is, but I think he tried to jump it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So you can't get across. So what a lot of Christians don't understand, we talk about, you know, my aunt is in heaven, you know, whatever. What I think the Bible teaches is now when you die, you go to that same place, but Jesus is there. It's in the presence of Jesus. It is a paradise, it's a place of waiting.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But they're still waiting for their resurrected bodies. You know, I hear a lot of people say, oh, they got a new body, they're not sick anymore. Revelation seems to indicate that they're covered in robes, and they're awaiting the resurrection. It is at the resurrection where people get new bodies.
Tammy Brown:So are you saying it would be the same place as it is post Jesus, the difference is Jesus is there with them.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So for the Christian, we are awaiting judgment that leads to eternal life. The non Christian is awaiting judgment that leads, and we'll just call it judgment, because Christians don't agree whether it's just being destroyed, cast into hell, you know, is punishment in hell forever, is it a period of time? Christians go all over the place on that issue. But the specific issue is there's a place called Shoal, a place of waiting.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Waiting judgment. And so those who are believers are with Abraham, and they're in paradise. It's a place of wonder, and they're cared for. And that's, when you look at the language of that, I always think of the movie Ghost. So it's like what, 1992?
Tammy Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Where what's his name? The dancer dies.
Tammy Brown:No? Yeah. Patrick Swayze.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Patrick Swayze, yes. Sorry. Patrick Swayze dies, but remember the evil guy dies at the end, and those things come out of the sewer to grab That's what I envision. So I envision angels carry
Tammy Brown:Like there's a peace to those with Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Because I mean, just think about this language. When you die, how does your soul know where to go? Like, which direction? So I think angels carry you to the side of Abraham where Jesus is, you're in the presence of Jesus, or, and I don't know this, but dark angels, demons, carry you, because you're not gonna wanna go, and I love that scene where he's fighting them.
Tammy Brown:Everybody go back and watch early.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. But he gets
Tammy Brown:taken Late nineties, early nineties goes He gets taken to place.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But here's the thing, they're not in hell, and we're not in heaven. We're awaiting the day of judgment, and at the day of day of judgment, there's there's the resurrection to life.
Tammy Brown:Well, this the same idea then as purgatory Catholics, or no?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Purgatory is a category that is created for Christians who die in a state of sin. So let's say suicide. So like you're a believer and you kill yourself, and so their understanding, and I'm not a Catholic priest or a Catholic theologian, so please don't criticize me if I get this wrong, but my understanding is, and I believe Vatican II changed this, but the teaching of, so if you were a Catholic and you killed yourself, you were not allowed to be buried in a church for centuries. Because it was considered a mortal sin, right? A sin that leads unto death that comes out of John.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:John says there are sins that lead unto death, and he says, and we should not pray for those. Now, I wish he would have expanded on what that was, but he didn't. So no. Purgatory is this place where sins are purged out of us. So it comes out of, really a passage out of Maccabees, which we don't have in our Bibles, Catholics have what is an intertestamental period of writings that include and Maccabees, it includes Jubilees, oh I can't think of his name.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What are the Ninja Turtles? Give me the three Ninja Turtle names.
Tammy Brown:Hello, Michelangelo, Raphael. I
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:think it's Raphael. So I think Raphael's a prophet who has a story. Everything is Yeah, those are all named after biblical characters. So Michelangelo, Archangel Michael, so Raphael has a story in there. It's kind of a creepy story about a woman who every time she gets married, devils kill her husbands.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's a bizarre story. Tobit. The story is Tobit. So and I think the angel Raphael, I haven't read it in a while, so don't quote me, it's been like five years. But there are some other books in there that are great, there's some books in there that thank God there aren't, and they're really really harsh books about women, and children who are born out of wedlock.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The word bastard, like there's just some really brutal stuff in there where I'm like, thank God that that didn't make it into our canon, because it's really really rough. But it helps you understand how children who were born out of wedlock were so mistreated in the medieval Catholic world because of those books. So did I answer your question? I So purgatory comes out of those books, and Corinthians, it says we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and everything that we've done will be tested as by fire, seeing whether what we did is gold, wood, or hay, or straw. So there's this idea, and this is where Christians I think, and a lot of Christians just, you know, your mom says this all the time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:My sins were paid for past, present, and future. Yes, the penalty, the wages of sin is, does anybody know the verse? It's So the wages of sin is death. The gift of Jesus is eternal life. So what is eliminated is eternal death.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There still is an accountability for how you lived. And that's what people do not understand. So there's two specific words that I think I would love a theologian to write a paper on this one day. The difference between the word condemnation, and the difference between the word judgment. All Christians will face judgment.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No Christian will face condemnation. Romans eight one, there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Why is that? You experience eternal life. However, you must face judgment.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Catholics read this, and they go, oh, okay, so that judgment period, whether it's a moment, whether it's whatever, they look at what Paul said. So it's fire, according to Paul. So it's this moment where your sins are being burned out of you. Not in judgment, but in purification.
Tammy Brown:I just always hear that word used almost in the same Yeah. Way, like a waiting place. And so I appreciate you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. No. Christians so so here's the thing is, those of us, our loved ones who have lost are waiting for the resurrection. Mhmm. So we tend to think of them having had experienced the resurrection.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The resurrection has not happened yet. Specifically, if you go to Thessalonians chapter four, the whole thing it's not about the Antichrist, it's about the fear of loved ones missing the resurrection. And he says, no, no, no, no, no. They will be caught up in the air to meet the Lord in the air, and then they will come down to be with us so we can be with him. So our bodies will change.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Dead people's bodies change right? So there's this theory, I don't buy it, but there's this theory, if you go to Jerusalem with me, you've been there, Resurrection Hill. So, right, so the Jews believe those people get like VIP resurrection. So because Jesus lands on the Mount Of Olives, it's split in two, and then he crosses through the East Gate, it's why the Romans, the Romans, the Muslims have walled it up and built a graveyard, because a holy man cannot walk over graves, and I'm like, he can do both. Not only does he walk
Tammy Brown:over graves He's coming down splitting the earth, like are we worried about a concrete wall?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. So there will be a huge earthquake, so this thing will be will be very very powerful, and he will walk into the temple, and it will be purified, and it will be for all people. And then Revelation says, not only will we go through a fire, but the earth and the heavens will go through a fire of purification. Mhmm. And so the best way to think about this is we we we think of fire like hell for torment.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Think of like the volcano in Hawaii. Fire is regenerative. So in Hawaii, the volcano can erupt, and it is black, and dark, and cold, and lifeless, and in fifty years with rain, it is a tropical forest. Brand new. Beautiful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So you know, some of that's apocalyptics, know, I mean some of it's poetry, so it's really really hard to know exactly what happened. But to say this, that human beings, the thief on the cross, Jesus says, today you will be with me in paradise. He does not use the word for heaven. So he says, you'll be with me in paradise. So it's a place of waiting, nothing to worry about.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The apostle Paul says to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. He does not say to be in heaven. He says to be in the presence of the Lord. So we are with Jesus, being cared for by Jesus. And because he's our shepherd, we're his sheep.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so just like Abraham was caring for the people, father Abraham, we will now be carried and comforted and well. But we still are waiting. And in Revelation, I can't remember what chapter it is, they say how long, oh Lord, shall we wait? And so he gives them robes. So some people have argued we're disembodied spirits, you know, at that point in time, longing for bodies.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. But we were not made to live in heaven, we're made to live on earth. And Isaiah, Peter, and Revelation all talk about a new heaven and a new earth. So it's powerful. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Interesting. There's I know. There's so much more to unpack there, but we are gonna move Now
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:that I've confused all of you. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:This next one comes from Brianna in Loma Linda, California, also a neighbor of ours. It says, how do you respond to someone questioning our God when they ask, why does God allow mass shootings or why does God allow bad things to happen in the world? This is such a good question and one super relevant because I've actually heard that recently a lot, like, why would God allow the fires? Why would God allow governmental? Like, there's just so much to this question of why does God allow things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So let's go back to Genesis pre fall. Right? So there's no sin on earth. The world is still dangerous.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So we have this idea that there was no pain prior to the fall, and you and I were talking about this as a small group. So the curse of Eve, because our daughter just had a baby, is not that childbirth will hurt, it's that it will greatly increase in pain. What does that mean? It was always gonna hurt. And here's why, we have a doctor in our small group.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Pain is necessary. It's a necessary communicator. Like if you can't experience pain, you don't know when you're doing something wrong. So it would not have been a perfect world without pain. So we need pain in the same way that we need pleasure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what's happened with the fall is both pleasure and pain have been twisted and intensified. So I would say pain has been intensified, and pleasure has been perverted. So that's what's happened in the fall. So
Tammy Brown:But if someone asked you right now, why does God allow mass shootings? What would your answer be?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because really, you know, really this is a question about who is God, what is the nature of God? So the the New Testament says four things. So God is love, God is light, God is a consuming fire, and I'm trying to think of the other one. I'm missing the
Tammy Brown:I should know this, we talk about this all the time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Missing the one. God is spirit, there's the The woman at the well. What does it mean that God is light, he's moral excellent? God is spirit, he doesn't have a human form like we do. God is a consuming fire, so he's just, right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then God is love. And so we've kind of run away with the aspect of God's love, and we've abandoned God's justice and God's holiness. So God has he told Adam and Eve, if you do this, there will be consequences. And so there are consequences. And here's the thing is, very very little of this is God doing it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mass shootings. Who invented guns? Not God. Who do guns protect us from? God?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. They protect us from people. And so really what's interesting to me is people look at human behavior, sin, and then say, because of that there can't be a good God. When the good God says the problem is human behavior. So the very thing that should draw us to a need for a God, a need for redemption, a need for things to change, for some people is the very thing that turns them off to God, when God has in fact said, this is not from me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So there's this thing, I think it's in Jeremiah chapter 17, I have to look it up, but where they're sacrificing their children to the God of Molech. And God says this, it's one of the most profound Hebrew verses in the Bible. Here's the Matt Brown translation. I can't believe you thought of doing such evil. Listen to these words.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What you've done never entered in my heart, and I never have decreed such a thing. So like for my Calvinist friends, why is there evil in the world? God has decreed it. Jeremiah says God did not decree that. It's so bad, it's so gross, it's so ugly, God is shocked by the evil in the human heart.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Same thing in Noah. He's like, dude, you guys are just whack. So there are aspects there are
Tammy Brown:aspects All of picturing God right
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:now. Yeah. No. There are aspects to human nature. When we rebel to against God, and we turn to ourselves, we do insanely evil things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because, right, there's no such thing as cold. Did you guys know that? Cold does not exist, it is the absence of heat. So in the same way, evil is not a thing, it is the absence of God. So when we pull away from God, just like if we turn off the heat, cold is the inevitable result, but God said.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that's what we need to think is, is it's the absence of God. And so it's like blaming the heater because you turned it off for it being cold, and that's why a person says I don't believe in God. It's like, well, wait a minute. Now, do whacked out people do evil things in the name of God? Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But what was the most evil century we've ever seen in human history? It's the century. Mao Zedong, an atheist. Stalin, an atheist. Adolf Hitler, an atheist.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They didn't kill people in the name of God, they killed people because they were evil people. You know? And look at the wackness of our universities, they're all turning back to these philosophies that they think they just got it wrong a little bit, we gotta try it again. And it's like, no. Evil happens when God's involved.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Terrible evil happens when there's no God involved. And so, and you just just can't compare. More people were killed in one century than all the wars previously in human history.
Tammy Brown:But I'm even thinking like in this weekend's message this past Right. Or recently, we're talking about Herod. Right? When knowing Jesus was born, he sent out all babies, male babies to and under. I mean, that would been the equivalent back then to a Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:A mass
Tammy Brown:shooting. If you will. But we don't equate I maybe we don't think of it like that because there's not a weapon involved, but the weapon was pride, and it was position and influence and power. And it was just as evil though. I mean, they were wiping out a generation of young boys.
Tammy Brown:So it's been throughout history. It's not just what's happened in the world
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And what is a mass shooting? A mass shooting is saying people are not created in an image of God and worthy of love and life. So it's the denial of God. And it's just saying you have no worth, and so it's acting on that. And it's actually, you know, a mass shooter is acting like God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I deserve to determine who lives and who dies. And the Bible says that is, no, you don't. That is something for God and God alone. And so it's just interesting to me that a self righteous act that's very religious, and I don't mean that the person is religious, but they're kind of self consumed, that that would deny people from. From a teacher who taught love your enemy, and pray for those who persecute you, and when he was being murdered, said, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think they're rejecting their concept of God. They're they're failing to wrestle with the person of Jesus who reveals the one true God. I'm not saying those things are not evil, but that does not deny God. What it does is it leads me to believe in a need for redemption. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And a need for a new heaven, and a new earth. And so you know, how do we wrestle through that? And so really there's three options. Well I guess there's four. So one option is Buddhism, and so Buddhism, Hinduism teaches karma, right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So karma is justice without mercy. You get what you get. What comes around goes around. So there's no mercy in karma. So like if you go to India, and there's a starving child missing a leg, you will not help that child, because they are getting what they deserve.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They did it in a past life. Now a lot of my Indian friends are going to try to deny that. I've been there, I've seen it, it's a problem. You are suffering because of your past sins. Karma is paying you back for whatever you did.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right? So that's justice without mercy, and we all want justice. So Islam is arbitrary justice. Muhammad says that Allah will have mercy on who he has mercy. It's just random.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So one is justice with no mercy. Islam is mercy without justice. I'm like, this makes no sense. He just arbitrarily chooses. What Jesus does is he is both merciful and just.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So he gives mercy to those who believe in him, and he punishes himself for their sins. So it's a it's a beautiful option that I think solves the religious problem. And then the atheist is somewhere in there, and I don't have something cute to say about that, so.
Tammy Brown:Wow. Yeah. Alright. Well, on that note, I wanna thank everyone for listening. If you like this podcast and these conversations are meaningful to you, we ask that you let us know by following the show, subscribing, leaving comments, giving support.
Tammy Brown:It takes a resource to make this happen. You can do that by going to sandalschurch.com/support. The other thing I'd like you to think about and consider is people in your life that might have the questions, be asking the questions that were answered on today's show and sharing this with them. Send it to them. We want to be a resource for people's real questions that they have about God and the Bible and how we navigate this thing called following Jesus.
Tammy Brown:So to do that. And until then, we'll talk to you next time.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
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