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This is a podcast for anyone feeling stretched thin by work, activism, caregiving, or just surviving under systems that weren’t built for our thriving. On Balm in the Burnout, we speak with artists, organizers, and community builders about what’s helping us stay grounded and resourced in the face of burnout. Together, we reclaim our right to soothe, heal, and make hopeful, sustainable action.
BITB-Ep1-Alchemizing BITB
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[00:00:00]
Megan: Welcome to Balm in the Burnout. A podcast for cross-sector people and professionals navigating personal and systemic burnout. Whether you're a doctor, educator, farmer, caregiver, or simply trying to survive under the weight of broken systems. This podcast is here to offer solace, strategy, and solidarity.
All right. Welcome back to Balm in the Burnout everyone. I am Megan Hadley, and today I can't wait to bring an old friend onto the show, Carl Atiya Swanson. Carl is a creative with an MBA, A third culture kid and a practical optimist. Carl's the founder of Cast Consulting, a firm focusing [00:01:00] on strategy, facilitation, and communications in the social, arts and culture sectors. Through Cast, Carl has worked with the city of Minneapolis Arts and Cultural Affairs Department, Minnesota CDFI Coalition. Arts Midwest Initiative Foundation, Salzburg Global and others. Swanson has worked as the executive director of the National Independent Venue Foundation and as associate director at Springboard for the Arts. As a writer, his poems have been published by Thin Air Magazine, Compass Rose Literary Journal, Crooked Arrow Press. Meal Magazine and the Hennepin History Museum, while his arts and culture writing has been published in SPIN, City Pages, the Onion, AV Club, MPLS Art, and other outlets. He has been a member of the theater companies Lamb Lays with Lion, and Umbrella Collective, and served on the boards [00:02:00] of Catalyst Music Twin Cities, Young Nonprofit Professionals Network- Twin Cities, and Dissonance, advocating for mental health and wellness in creativity.
Carl holds a BA in studio art from the University of Southern California and an MBA from the University of St. Thomas Opus College of Business.
My, oh my. You've been busy in your career, Carl, and we're just so happy that you're here with us chatting today.
Carl: Thanks. I'm delighted to be here and like I said earlier it's always a good reminder that, oh yeah, I've done all those things, whenever I hear somebody read my bio out loud, because I can often get like, what is the thing that I'm doing right now? Tunnel vision. So it's nice to have that perspective. I appreciate it.
Megan: Yeah, and the more youth that I work with, the more they begin to feel. That's normalized too. The more stories they hear of people that you know, it all weaves together eventually. You don't quite know how it does it first.
Carl: Yeah, I got to, I got a chance to [00:03:00] teach a, to co-teach a class at the University of St. Thomas, uh, an undergrad Opus College of Business this last semester. And it was really heartening to see both groups of kids who knew what they were going to do next. I. And then also people who are just like super open-ended and to just be encouraging to them that, find good ways to spend your time and energy, uh, and attention because those are resources that you're not getting back.
Uh, then then it will all come together in the end. You don't have to beat yourself up about what your next step is right now.
Megan: I love that so much. What a beautiful message from a, a mentor, an elder for them.
Carl: Don't call me an elder yet.
Megan: I think you can be an elder at any age.
Carl: that's true. I do call myself, uh, an elder, millennial statesman every once in a while when I have to generationally define myself.
Megan: we go. There we go. It kind of reminds me of folks who do astrology readings on like at the end of life and how much, it's just like you've actually done all the things. This is kind of anti-climactic [00:04:00] now.
Carl: Now you go quietly into that good night because, uh, that's what you got right now.
Megan: A hundred percent. Oh my goodness. Well, okay, let me get to my list here. We'll go off on some really fun tangents, but can you share a moment when you felt really present lately?
Carl: Yeah, I try and find little things throughout the day. Uh, and I was just watching a video this morning of the actor, uh, Richard E. Grant, who his wife was dying and she told him to find a pocket full of happiness in every day. And I love that phrase. Yesterday I was driving. I had to run to, I had to run to.
He asked to pick up something for a school project and there was a, a heron in a pond that I was driving past, and I just pulled the car over and stopped and looked at this heron for five minutes and that was great. That was terrific. I,
Megan: Yeah, it's that time of year to watch the birds. For sure. Thank you for [00:05:00] eliminating that moment for us. I would love to talk about health and wellbeing. I could talk about this all day long, but what's important to share about your frame on health and wellbeing for yourself or some of that organizational health work you do?
Carl: Yeah, I think for me personally, the first thing that I have to go back to is that I'm a person in recovery. I, um, am 17 years sober from drugs and alcohol at this point, and that is a constant practice and a frame for approaching life and the way that I live and the thing that I. Maybe cherish most about that recovery process is that it, you have to commit to believing that change is possible, right?
That you can make a change in yourself. And that is the first place where you can affect change. And so if you tend to that and take care of that then you can also affect change in other places. But, the garden in your mind, the way that you cultivate your own habits and body. These are critical ways to support showing up in [00:06:00] the world.
And I'll say my own recovery practice has been weaving. I not an, I'm not an AA person. There are like hundreds of ways to get through the day. So choose one and find a way. And for a long time it was just, finding other people who were sober, finding other people to have conversations with, just being public and accountable to it.
But over the last few years I've done more meditation and Buddhist inspired work and have joined a recovery Dharma practice, which is a recovery practice that centers Buddhist teachings. It's not a religious gathering, but it centers Buddhist teachings as a way to sit with the, with the suffering of addiction and to.
Recognize it and find healthy and skillful ways to move through it. And I think that one of the things that's most important about that for me is that it really does underscore that nothing is ever finished. You don't reach a done state and things. You simply live in the moment and you live through the moment [00:07:00] and try and figure out what the next best thing to do is.
And that I find that very reassuring in a way that. I don't have to like check a thing off of box, but that I can keep on coming back to it and try and be better at it over and over again. Yeah, that is I think the sort of first and foremost thing, and I'll say. I had a mental image of myself for a long time, especially as a younger person, as a younger creative theater maker, that I was a chaotic person.
And there is an element of that, but also the practice of recovery and the practice of being a parent and the practice of running my own business actually means that I have turned into a surprisingly disciplined person in a lot of ways. Which. It was a shock to me as much as it is to anybody else.
But that realization of repetition over time, actually creating habits, I think is really powerful in a good way. And also can be in a very bad way. So you gotta, check what those habits you're cultivating are and how you're approaching the work. But that, that [00:08:00] first and foremost is the frame with which I approach how to stay healthy and grounded and well in this life.
Megan: Thank you so much. There's so much wisdom to what you're talking about. Even as you started starting with that personal change and committing to yourself and saying, if I can make change is possible elsewhere, and what a daily reminder that it is possible. If you can stick to your commitment to yourself and your family, uh, it's only upwards from there in many
Carl: And I think that it's helpful. We're, we don't wanna talk about burnouts and that's what we're, what we're here to talk about, but. I mean, a lot of burnout is because of the frustrations of you as an individual or if I, I'll say, put in me, let me frame my framing. Uh, is me as an individual trying to deal with the structures of the world and the things that are frustrating in the world around me, which I have probably only limited resources or limited access to change some of those fundamental structures, and [00:09:00] so.
It is the classic aa, but like knowing what it is that I can change and where I can make that change. And also giving myself a bunch of grace to step away from things that that I can't actually change. That's really helpful in knowing where to conserve energy and where to put energy versus it's ex exhaust.
It's, it's imperative to be. Angry and upset about the things that are wrong with the world and also incredibly exhausting. And so there is a balance that you have to strike with that.
Megan: Definitely how much you're engaging in kind of where that locus of control is, right? If you're spending all of your energy on something that's out of your control, you know, how is that serving you or, or the goals that you have. Yeah.
Carl: Yeah. Yeah.
Megan: Well, I've talked a lot about the work you're doing. What feels relevant to pull in the circle here around how that shows up.
Carl: I will say professionally, [00:10:00] the work that I'm doing often revolves around like organizations and leadership teams and boards, and how do we share common values? How do we articulate those values? I think that that's a big part of the work that I try to do inside of organizations is to help. People push to, uh, what do we actually mean when we say the words that we share together?
What do we actually mean in practice? What does it look like? You know, everybody can say. We value, we value integrity, we value honesty, or whatever the case may be inside of those organizations. But what do you actually like mean in that situation? And that I find is really helpful in digging down to like, what are then the habits and the processes and procedures that you need to put in place to really live into those values or to really support the people in organizations.
Um, I'm a big believer in this. This notion that any organization, an organization is not a thing in and of itself. An organization is just a collection of people. And so you have to [00:11:00] look out for the people and you have to create systems that are responsive, uh, to the people inside that organization to, you're never gonna get rid of stresses.
You're never gonna get rid of all of the, like, the work is hard often. You shouldn't shy away from that, but you can try and mitigate the negative impact on people by creating more responsive systems, by creating timelines that have slack and grace in them by creating you know, family friendly environments where you can bring your dog or your kid into the office, or you can have flexibility around where you work.
Those are all really important things. I think a lot about, uh, the poet Tisch Jones. I was at a conference once and Tish was speaking and she said if you treat the people good, the outcome will be good. And I think about that a lot when it comes to like organizational structure and how we're putting things together.
Megan: Yeah, really centering the experience of the person, the people that make up the organization. And what you're describing just reminds me a lot about health coaching. So I, I can't help but make that parallel. Right? And I've never thought that. The health [00:12:00] coaching process is actually unique to health coaching.
We're just doing, we're saying it's a frame and we're using it often in healthcare, but right. Doing that work of identifying values and then trying to see how, how our values aligning our action so that we can show up in the way that we say that we want to show up and that can really build the habits and help design the structures based on the need and the values.
So. I love seeing that parallel and knowing that that's happening and all these incredible organizations and at the leadership level. I mean, you're, you're very much needed, so like, thank you for doing that. Work with people.
Carl: this is the thing is that I, in that trying to put all the pieces together and trying to make a life that makes sense to me. I often, when you read the bio, like it doesn't necessarily all read. Together. Like what is this like arts and culture guy doing in these like nonprofit lending spaces and doing political or like, what is all that?
How [00:13:00] does all that work together? But to me, when I set out to just run my own business and do my own thing, the question was, it been this building series of questions is like, where can I be useful in the communities where I think that there is important work to be done, and whether it is with an individual artist or a cultural organization, or with organizations that are looking to try and move money into communities that have been under capitalized or disenfranchised that is for me all about.
What is the creative and connective and supportive world that I want to see? And if I can put the kind of, synthesizing, creative capacities that I have to use, uh, in those contexts that's, that feels like a good place to be. It feels like a, an important place to be in these times because Lord knows these times are these timing all over and all around us right now?
Megan: I know it's so true. It's like I've been thinking about. Just the timing of these recordings and just being [00:14:00] like, this feels like very historic moment. These times, like you said, are these times and and there's always like you like you think COVID was a time, you sent me that reel to watch from last year and that, that time post nine 11 in like 2008, those were times right.
So yeah, I, what is unique, do you think about the work we're doing to support reduction of burnout
In this moment?
Carl: Yeah. I mean, I'd say in these times, and I think it's really true, like we are living through. Monumental inconsequential times, but then I also put it on like a time scale. And if someone was born in the mid 1930s, they lived through a depression, a world war, a massive industrialization the civil rights movement and stagflation by the time they were my age, 41, right?
Like the, these times are apparently just the times that we live [00:15:00] in. And so I think the work. That we can do and should be doing is around what is the continue, like, what is the creative and humane way to build these systems that we wanna see and to build in the constructs that we have. And it's with the technology that we have to work both in and around that, and also to push against it when it is inhumane or when it is not serving.
The balance between humans and nature and when we are actively destroying the planet, that we need to actively work against that and we need to actively put people and their relationship to ecology back in the center of the conversation. And so, yeah, there's something comforting to me and.
About this notion that human beings have carried on for a long time. I especially felt this acutely when I first became a parent and I was like super scared. Like, what are, what are we even doing here? How are we gonna keep this tiny thing alive? [00:16:00] And then I would think that there have been literally billions of other human beings who have come before us and somehow we're still here.
And so I just need to do my best and we'll probably work out in the end, run. Um.
And I do feel that way about sort of the work that we try and do with, with people, with organizations. It is what are we doing? How are we doing our best to make sure that we're taking care of each other? How are we building in that in an intentional and systemic way to counterbalance and push against those other systems that are inhumane?
Yeah. How are we giving ourselves grace in doing that work?
Megan: Yes. I can only say yes to that. I'm just like, I was really feeling you on the parenthood thing. I was
Carl: Oh yeah. I mean, you know, you, you know. Yeah.
Megan: of three major world. Um, it's so good though. It reminds us we're alive, you know? And that's, you know, what I think is unique about this moment too, is like we actually just have so much to fight for.
And like you said, seeing the [00:17:00] inhumane, seeing the imbalance recognizing we're not only supporting the people, we're also supporting the sustainability of the people and this business, which also happens to mean the sustainability of the planet. And
Carl: Yeah.
Megan: hasn't been in. Business world ecology for a, back in the day.
So here we are trying to center that as much as we do. And yeah, maybe that's just another question is how do you bring your own values and make sure they don't get intermixed, but you still have that pushback influence when you can.
Carl: Yeah, I feel really. Fortunate to have been able to work both inside of organizations as an employee and then also, for with clients who I agree with. And so we have like a shared and common understanding and shared goal. And if you are not in that situation, I think that's part of like figuring out where you have agency to either change or push back.
And that's been a part of the work. [00:18:00] Inside of those organizations and with the organizations I work with, because we are aligned on values, what that gives us is the capacity. Then push back sort of on the bigger picture and say that and try and change sort of more structural things. Uh, but if you were inside of an organization where your values aren't aligned, that really is one of those places where, you know.
Do I have the agency to change this? Is it worth my time and energy and capacity and strength to try and change this? Are there other places where I could spend time and energy? Are there other places that are better aligned and trying to find what the, where the answers to those questions are so that you can either stay and make the change that you think is possible and needed, or go and try and find something else to do.
Ricardo Levins Morale is the artist and organizer from South Minneapolis has this, uh, whole series around like, around community organizing and kinds of power. So inside and outside power, and then sunlight power and moonlight power. So sunlight power is like direct, this is, you [00:19:00] know, we are Casting the light.
Moonlight power is like, I'm reflecting this back and making other changes. And I think that that's like understanding where you are relative. You know, relative to a power structure or relative to something that might be challenging your values is useful in knowing how to approach, trying to change it, or trying to change, trying to change your relationship to it.
Try to change where you're set up so that you can make make the shifts You want to see I,
Megan: That is so good. Thank you for bringing in that artist and, and that frame sunlight and moonlight. I'm gonna really explore that 'cause I'm just like, wow, that's so good. How do you wrestle with those questions? Like what does your practice look like for that?
Carl: Yeah, that's a good question. And it's one, I mean, I'll say this from a like time capacity question, right? Because I am human and have only so many hours in the day. And the thing that I think a lot about and this goes back to, my own actual. [00:20:00] Sobriety journey is really around like, where can I make, where can I make change?
Like where do I have that immediate impact? And I'll say that what the reason politically that that ties back is that I was, drinking post nine 11 when I was in college and partying in college. And I say this jokingly, but it is also very serious, uh, that the reelection of George W. Bush in 2004 was one of those like catalytic moments where I had spent time protesting against the war in Iraq and trying to get John Kerry elected and change what I saw as this disastrous course of the country in pointless and bloody invasions.
And, a terrible, terrible move, political move. Uh, and it was that reelection that to me as a 20-year-old at that point was like, well, I'm just gonna throw my hands up in the air and who cares? And I'm just gonna go. And I dove headfirst into partying. And a couple years later that really became a problem.
And I'm grateful that I have friends and family [00:21:00] who. Helped me get sober. But I think a lot about that. Like where, where did I give up agency around change and where did I give up a sense of power around change? And so part of that process for me is like, how much time do I have where, what are my energy resources like?
And then where are the closest places that I can help do? Important things. And for me right now that isn't trying to be the best parent that I can be, it is in some local organizing and support. And it isn't the clients that I work with in helping them do good work or helping, you know, the network of folks do good work.
I think about that a lot. And there are times when like, I beat myself up where I'm like, I should be doing more things. I feel like that's a very natural position for somebody who wants, bigger and better things. To be in. And so I have to catch myself in those moments and, you know, take a little inventory of what are the things that I could do, what are things that I can't be doing?
Often when I feel run down like that, [00:22:00] the, um, the little catchphrase that I, I live my life off of, like little catchphrases and things that'll help me, like stay grounded or focused. But this one is, uh. If I'm feeling run down and not like I'm doing anything worthwhile I will ask myself, what can I do for future Carl to make life easier for him because I like that guy and I wanna stick around for him.
That like if I'm at like 20% capacity, like what is like the list that I can make or what is the email that I can write? Or what is the walk that I can take to like, rejuvenate and replenish? But that like process of assessment is a big part of just how I. Try and prioritize and then try and stay focused in the work.
Megan: Definitely, and it sounds like a practice you can turn to every day, multiple times a day. It sounds like you're checking in with your time, you're checking in with your energy, so like these are two, two resources you have in and of yourself. And then you're also saying like, okay. My, my circle of influence, [00:23:00] like where is the easiest, closest place that I can live out my values and have this better life and seeing all these people I live with
Carl: Yeah.
Megan: in my family.
Let's work on that, you know, and how valuable that time is. Um, and that local organizing. So what a, what a very simple and profound practice you've built.
Carl: Is, uh, the, the little p political, the people in the politics versus the big P you know, whatever the, the structural, whatever the party politics might be. But the little p. People, politics is a really critical thing for me to come back to.
Megan: Yeah, so good. Alright, so I would also like to talk about, before we wind down, just the idea of. Alchemy and how the hard things in our life, you've talked about this, right? How you're kind of literally digesting them and processing them to turn it into something that's workable, but how do you see this [00:24:00] alchemy, you know, especially in the work that you do with organizations, what happens?
Carl: Yeah, I think that we have a limited attention resource, right? Our time is inherently limited. Our attention. Yeah, we only have so much of it. And so where we spend that time and attention is where we make, we make change possible, where we make realizations happen. And I find that a lot of the work that I do, especially in organizations, is to help them realize the things that they're already doing, but they don't have words for or they don't have a structure for yet.
And that process of naming and that process of like understanding. Intuitive relationships in a more structured way. That to me, feels really alchemical. It feels real magical because it lets you say, oh, I've been doing all these things and I've been synthesizing them, and like, organizationally, we've been doing all this stuff.
[00:25:00] And so we've, we've been building up. And the ability to say like, here's where we are now means that you can then, stand on that so that you can start the next sequence of things that you wanna build off of. And so that naming, that naming and that understanding feels like sort of the transmogrification of the work.
I wrote down because I knew you were gonna ask this question, but I, one of my favorite little poems is by Mary Oliver, which is The Instructions for Living a Life. It's three lines. Uh, pay attention, be astonished, tell about it. And that to me, like fundamentally whatever else you do, on a big or a tiny scale, like paying attention, being astonished, and then telling about it feels like the magic.
Megan: Ooh, you are the second guest who is quoted Mary Oliver.
Carl: It's because she's magical and people love her. She's very, very smart.
Megan: so good. I know, I know. I've read that one, but it's been a while, so thanks for bringing that up. I mean, I think the other thing that I'm hearing from you [00:26:00] is the capacity to witness the good that's already happening.
Carl: Yeah.
Megan: we have that negativity bias around like, oh, we need to fix something. We need to do something about this.
When really it's just. Hey, what's actually already happening here? How could we name that, view it, systematize it, witness it. You know, doing that work is huge for people. This is what we do in health coaching all the time. We're just reflecting what's already happening for them. But being that space and showing it and kind of alchemizing it, right?
Making it into something you can look back at
Carl: Mm-hmm. Yeah,
Megan: into something new like that, that is magic.
Carl: yeah. Witness is huge. And to be. I find there's like nothing more personally magical than like being witnessed to like the, to both do it for somebody. And then also the rush of joy and satisfaction that I get when someone's like, oh, you're observant. It's like that's, I [00:27:00] try Thank you. Like, yeah, it makes me so happy.
You say that
Megan: Like actually, yes, I've been honing that skill for years. Just for this moment. Thank you.
Carl: much. Yeah.
Megan: I mean, it's a. It's a skill that shouldn't go unnoticed, right? Your capacity to, to pay that attention for people and connect the dots for them. Be that, third party person to just hop in and see things as they are and hold it up for them to look at.
I think that's really good work.
Carl: Yeah.
Megan: Well, if there was one takeaway that our listeners could hold with them after hearing this, what would you hope that might be?
Carl: I hope that you find moments in your day to pay attention to yourself and to take and to just appreciate all the places you've been and where you can go and to use that as building blocks for the other things you want to build. And [00:28:00] I'll. Um, like I said, like I, I rely on like little phrases in my life.
I rely on song lyrics all the time, and some years sometimes just have a song that keeps coming back. Uh, and so, my song for right now is from Fiona Apple. From her extraordinary machine record, and it is the Extraordinary Machine song, which is the course goes be kind to me or Treat me mean.
I'll make the most of it. I'm an extraordinary machine, and so you are all extraordinary machines out there wandering around the world. So let's put all these pieces together and do extraordinary things.
Megan: And it speaks so much to that resilience and capacity to see ourselves for who we are and hold some respect for that
Carl: Yeah.
Megan: and move on from the things that aren't for us.
Carl: Yeah. And the capacity to take it in to realize that it's not, or it is, and to move in that direction. Yeah. It's also [00:29:00] got a, killer Clarine outline from John Bryan, so go listen to it and make you happy.
Megan: I will, I certainly will. Well. Thank you again so much, Carl, for your time today. This was a lovely conversation. We'll be sharing your website, Cast consulting.co, your personal website with your writing and things Carl atiya swanson.com and your social media handles. So check those out in the show notes.
Otherwise, thank you again so much and we'll look forward to seeing your work evolve.
Carl: My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.
Megan: Yeah, thanks.
Balm in the Burnout is a listener supported podcast made possible by my work at Harvest Health and Wellbeing. If you'd like to support this project or contribute to a community scholarship, you can leave a tip on Venmo at HHW-LLC. Thanks for listening and see what you can restore and alchemize today.
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