Rich Christman - Why do I still follow Jesus? (Finding Jesus in Beauty, Doubt, and Friendship)

This fascinating episode explores one man's winding spiritual journey through childhood, college, and beyond. Rich Christman opens up about his experiences growing up Christian, losing his faith in high school, and the series of events in college that led him to rediscover and redefine his relationship with God. From initially rejecting faith to finding beauty and truth through philosophy and theater, Rich's story illustrates the twists and turns many go through to find meaning and purpose. His honest reflections on denominations, doubt, and the quest for authentic Christianity provide insight we can all learn from.

What is Why God Why??

If you could ask God one question what would it be? The “Why God Why” podcast is dedicated to exploring the questions that matter most in your life.

Deep questions often don’t have easy answers. We realize that we won’t solve all the world’s problems in one podcast. Our goal is to share our life experience, interview knowledgeable guests and look at how Jesus might interact with our concerns. We also hope to have a ton of fun in the process because even though the issues might be serious, it doesn’t mean that we always need to be.

No matter where you are on your spiritual journey, we are honored to have you with us!

Welcome to the why, God, why podcast. My name is Peter

Englert. We are brought to you by the Lumivoz

network at a saddleback church. We are also brought to

you by Browncroft Community Church. We exist to

respond to the questions you don't feel comfortable

asking in church. And, Gage, my co

host today, and we want to thank our producer, Nathan. We

are still in the series. Why do you still follow Jesus

we brought all the way in from Webster, New

York, our friend, such a

drive compadre, Rich

Christman. Before he

introduces himself. Anything you want to say about,

you.

Know, we were actually years and

years ago here at Browncroft together, part of

this little

Christian Boy Scouts

pretty much type thing called stockade. That is where

we originally know each other from.

You taught me how to play ghosts in the graveyard.

Oh, gosh.

Wow.

Yeah, I have a visceral memory of it.

That makes one of it.

I think I was maybe in fourth time.

but I got reintroduced to rich just

two years ago now. Yeah, after,

moving back to Rochester from New York. And, bumped

into him at an event, which gets into his

introduction, by forefront, which is a local

nonprofit committed to fostering the arts.

And since, then, we've become

good friends again. Better than before, I'd say.

So.

Super glad to have him.

One more quick joke. I mean, we have the Grove

City College and Josh Eisenhart, who's a friend of the

podcast, of course goes that

arrival, Geneva College.

Does he? I didn't even know that.

Anyways, that's deep cuts for you, but.

Explains a lot about Josh and my relationship

that just existed.

Yeah, we could title this. Why would I go to

Grove City instead of Geneva? But anyways, rich, before we

go, come.

Back on for that, before we.

Go down that rabbit trail, why don't you just give us a brief

intro of, who you are, where you're from, and what you're

currently doing right now.

Yeah, Gage did a good job starting

that off. So I am from here.

No, this very.

Yeah, born and raised here in Rochester.

I, grew up here at Browncroft

Church until I was in about 9th grade.

And then, my family moved to another church and I've hopped

around a bit since then. But, probably a lot of

points of connection with you guys for that reason.

I did move away for some time. I went to Grove City College,

Pennsylvania. and I lived in Pittsburgh

for a short time. moved back to Rochester in

2018 to take a, high school teaching

job. So I'm a high school teacher now, here in the

Rochester area. I teach high school English. Love

that. yeah, so I do that. And then I also

am the co leader of forefront, as Gage mentioned. So

we focus on authentic Christian

faith and excellence in the arts and we try

to foster and platform

and encourage and equip,

authentic Christians to

produce beauty, and to

quote, create in light of their creator.

So kind of splitting my time.

It's probably these are not split in three ways

evenly, but I have the English teaching life, I

have the forefront life and I

have an eight month old son at home and a lovely wife,

Missy. So the family

is really a big part of it

now. Kids learning how to crawl, learning how to. He

sings now.

Oh, wow.

It's really great.

So before Gage goes super, super

serious, we didn't talk about this.

Wow.

let me ask you some quick hitting questions

just to have some fun. an

author of fiction that we should

read, that no one tells you to read.

All right. he's a good one for this. Yeah. So

especially in the Christian circle, this is specifically

to Christian listeners, viewers. you've probably

heard of Neil Guyman. So he

wrote Sandman and American

gods and good omens and things like

that. But he has been called

by many kind, of like the heir of Cs

Lewis and not a Christian, but very

let's say eternity minded. So

he's extremely know

researched in ancient mythologies and belief

systems and stuff. And he really weaves that into his work. And he said

that in his fiction works he says that he absolutely

believes that there is a God and an afterlife and a

beyond. He just like believes. He hasn't

ascribed to a particular one. Grew up in a

Christian environment. But anyway,

his books very much model kind of

like the C. S. Lewis fiction

style for a more contemporary

time. So I definitely recommend anybody who likes those

sort of books. I recommend Coraline

and American gods the most.

Yeah, it's a thorough response.

English teacher.

A play that you have never

directed or conducted that you

want to in the future.

Yeah.

So people that know me, I have

always wanted to direct death of a salesman because

I just think it's a classic. I think it's so cool. but I actually

have a better answer than that for now. I recently read

the old play a doll's House by Heinrich

Ibsen and I'd never read it before. Read it for the

first time, just like a couple weeks

ago, I was really, really struck by it. And so now

I'm really jazzed up about directing a

doll's house at some point in the future.

Last one. And then we'll throw to Gage, who has the

best garbage plate in.

really like, web. I don't know if this is the best

in Rochester, but I really like Webster hots on Ridge,

road in the village of Webster.

I feel like their burgers are cooked.

You know how sometimes on a garbage plate, the burger is not as good

as if you ordered a burger? It doesn't feel

like as well cooked. It feels like all the elements in the Webster

Hotts plate are cooked how they

should be before they're garbage, know, but, I

gotta go with Webster Hotts on that one.

So, listeners, if you're not from Rochester,

imagine everything wrong on a plate that would.

Heart attack. That's what a garbage plate is.

Yeah. I don't have a garbage plate often, but when I

do, it's like a special. It's like having

Thanksgiving. You know, how you let yourself go

on know I have a garbage plate maybe

like three times a year, maybe. But when I

do.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh.

Now we're going to talk about deconstruction.

Kind of like a deconstructed plate.

It's a thing. Okay, well,

Yeah, well, let's get into it.

So, like we said,

we share some pretty humorous,

deep church background that we could maybe roll

our eyes at bits and pieces, but also maybe be grateful for

others.

Sure.

but to get us into your story a bit

further, share a little bit more about

your faith journey as you grew up and got older.

Yeah. So

there's a lot of strands here, so I'm going to try to keep it

as sensible as I can.

as far as my memory goes, I grew up at

Browncroft here and had an absolutely

fantastic

childhood as a member of the church. I

have nothing but fond memories of,

as far back as I can remember, through my

elementary years and, like, middle school years here at

Browncroft, absolutely cultivated

a real faith here.

Ah, were you part of Bible steppers?

I wasn't.

Okay. So a group of parents

in, I guess probably like, early

2000, I would say, put together

like, a Sunday school class here at

Browncroft, where it was optional. You could sign up for it, and

they called it Bible Steppers. I don't know if they had a curriculum or not. It's a long

time ago, but,

we were young kids and they taught us through books

of the Bible, and I learned a ton through that. And it was a rotating,

like, different parents would take different weeks and stuff. And

so Browncroft facilitated that. I don't know the

details. I was ten years old, but, I remember learning a lot from

that. A lot of my foundation of my faith came from

that and from Stockhade and all sorts of different,

the VBSS here at Browncroft. Unmatched. I don't

know if they still are, but they were. Man, it's like

Disney World when I think back. But anyway, good times.

So also just like some other factors in there,

shortly before I can remember, but

when I was young in my life, my parents were,

from a Catholic background, so my dad

in particular was pretty, committed to being

Roman Catholic. So there's elements of that that kind of

like existed in My parents

faith and a lot of my faith kind of growing up, I didn't

recognize it at the time, but I can see it

now. a lot of,

I guess, opinions maybe that I was introduced to

about elements of the Christian faith were

very much reactionary to the Catholic

understanding. So is

whatever questions like what

is Communion? I, think I

was raised not just by my parents, but by, I think a lot

of people, in my circle at the time. The answers

to those questions were very much like

calculated in reaction to the

Catholic response that was, disagreed with. so that was

there. But,

Hold on 1 second, just for our listeners. Like you're talking about

transubantiation. I probably messed that up

where I think the Catholic belief that

the bread and the wine actually become part of the

body, the Protestant

symbolism, if you're a theologian, I just try

to give probably a couple hundred

year doctrine.

And the idea too that most

even lowercase c Catholic churches that

are connected to the more historic church, like Presbyterian and

Anglican and stuff, look, as at

Communion or the Lord's Supper or the Eucharist, as like the center of

the Christian experience, whereas, growing up in a more

nondenominational evangelical environment,

communion was like a great tradition that we did.

But I definitely didn't grow up thinking that

communion was like

an essential center point of the Christian

experience. So just things like that. also things about

baptism. I remember I had friends growing

up who were going to their baby

sister's baptism and I was like, why is

your baby sister being baptized? She can't make that

decision. So things like that.

But anyway, so I grew up very plugged

into my evangelical Christian faith as a

young kid, we did switch

churches when I was, like, in early high school, and I had a really

difficult time. Some people, you probably had this

experience. I had a really difficult time. I was very connected with

friends here at Browncroft. Went to a new

church that was much smaller, and

older, as you'll see if you leave

a large evangelical church for a smaller, more

traditional church. and I had a really difficult time making

friends and in kind of

like a rebellion that I didn't see as a

rebellion at the time, but I was annoyed that

we went to a new church. I was, like, teenager, wanted to stay with my

friends. I really unplugged.

So even though I was a regular church

goer and I was, like, participant in youth group and stuff

in high school, I was

emotionally and spiritually not

there.

I really thank God for that tremendous

foundation that I had, because

I don't think I grew too much in the high school years.

so, funny thing, I won't drop any names

because person also went to brown crowd. You probably

know them. But anyway, so I had this rivalry in high

school with this girl that went to high school with me that also grew up with

us at church. And my dad will deny this to this day,

but I think she was better

at school and whatever than I was. And

I remember this rivalry where I felt like my dad would

always be like, well, so and so did this,

or whatever. Why don't you do that? And I always felt,

like I was competing. So she said we were like,

juniors or seniors, I don't remember. And she said, we're talking about

college or something. And then she said, like, oh, yeah, I think I'm

going to go to Grove City College. And I swear

I did not wear this shirt as an ad. I just wore it today.

But anyway, she's like, I'm going to go to Grove City College. I had never heard of it.

No one in my family had heard of it.

Christian private college in Pennsylvania, if you're

unaware. anyway, so I'm like, never heard of it.

And my dad looks it up and is like,

my dad was a teacher in my high school. That's why he was there.

And he, looks it up and he's like, oh, that's great. That looks really

cool. And he's like, giving her all this praise for wanting to go there. And so

immediately I'm like, in my head, I'm like, I'm

going there. That's it. You know what I mean? And so the

funny part is, I went to Gross City College because I wanted

to one up this girl for no reason.

But anyway, but actually, that's not for no

reason because it kind of brings me to this point that I'm making.

I absolutely think, and there's a lot of details that will go into

this if you're interested. But I absolutely think that

God, I'm a firm believer that even

the smallest, paths that we. Doors that we

open, in our lives are directed by

God for a purpose. And I

believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that

God put certain

steps in my life so that I

would end up where I am now. And I think

kind of my stumbling my way to Grove City

College was a huge part in that journey.

so I went to Grove City College out of spite.

And, I, got there, met, some great people,

had a really good time starting off as a

freshman. and then due to a

couple different factors, of various

things, like academically, socially, stuff going on

at home, like all different sorts of things. the second

half of my freshman year of college and my sophomore

year of college, I really fell

into a really bad place, emotionally and

spiritually. And I felt very,

One of the reasons why I really think that

spiritual. I don't know if this

is too much, but, like, spiritual forces or whatever. It

sounds heavy, but were very

prevalent in my life at this time. Because

when I look back at that season, which is probably about a year and a

half long,

I was in a really bad place. I was certainly

depressed. my grades were terrible.

I was making really

clearly stupid decisions, like socially and

stuff like that in school.

morally as well. And it's

funny because it's one of those things where you feel like you're having

an out of body experience where you're looking at your own life and

you're like, this is dumb, but you just

continue anyway. And I felt very

beside myself, which just made things increasingly

worse.

And the other thing is, I knew in the back of my mind, this

whole time, in this disembodied experience, right,

that I should reach out to

God. I felt like God's

presence with me the whole time. But in this way, where I was

like, I knew in the back of my mind I should pray about

this, I should reach out to God about this. I was

not attending a church regularly. I was like, I should go to church. Maybe I

should talk to somebody at a church about this. whatever. I

knew all this. I remember my brain kind of like, feeding me these

things. And just consciously

rejecting those thoughts.

And I grew up in a world where prayer was

something that was not, a big

deal. Like, you shoot up a prayer really quick on your way to

in the shower or whatever. Right? So it's not like I felt like there was

this big, like, oh, I got to formally pray, I got to go to church.

Anything like that. It was like, as simple as

asking God for help. And I just didn't want to do it. I

just felt this barrier there.

hold on 1 second. Yeah, go ahead.

I think this is a good. So I

resonate with the sophomore

of. I think sometimes we get into these

series. So Gage and I

interviewed Glenn Pearson, who, I mean,

just. His family life just was

terrible. Go listen to the episode we think about

Mark Goodman. His family life was terrible.

And I resonate with you

in the sense of

can't. I can't

pinpoint the dark night in my soul

of exactly why. I can tell

you

I love Valley Forge, where I went to college.

I didn't feel connected.

And some of that was. I was probably more connected than I

thought. I live with this narrative in my

soul. Someday will probably. I just

don't belong. but I was making these bad

decisions, like

eating two half priced appetizers at

Applebee's. And I gained

40 bad decisions. That's a bad

one to take the

frozen. Nothing against Applebee's,

but I can't pinpoint

this terrible thing. But, ah,

I don't know if it was a new place. I

don't know if it was. What am I doing

here? If you could kind

of go back. You're saying you're having this out of body? Is

there a moment? Is there a thing?

Well, I don't know if There's a moment, but I can tell

you. See,

I wasn't even planning on going this deep here, but I can tell you

that I don't know about a moment, but there were three

factors that brought

me down. Like three

metaphorical, hopefully metaphorical

demons in my life. Right?

So people that are considering whether to send your children

to a Christian school. I went to a Christian

college, and I desperately,

desperately wanted to be unique and have an

identity that was interesting, so I could make

friends.

And it sounds so silly, like, in retrospect,

but if you go to a Christian

school, the easiest way to make yourself

unique and interesting is to be contrary to

the Christian faith. So

I felt this deep inner

desire to be

different, and I did that. You can

really, stir up some controversy at a school like Grove City.

If you start claiming that

you're buying into just

very left and right of center

theologies like open theism

or universalism or things like that.

I remember reading a bunch for a while

about Islam, but not in a

way because I truly was interested in

considering Islam. It was like, oh, if I'm

sitting in the student union with a Quran, people are

going to be like, whoa, that guy's interesting. That's what I thought, you know

what I mean? and it did

work to some degree, but I think I made friends with the people

that you don't go to a Christian college to make friends with. You know what I

mean? I think that was a negative thing. and the other

two kind of elements which are, I think,

less obviously nefarious maybe, but worked

out negatively was I was

dating someone from high school and

went, moved away.

and I think that I

didn't even give myself the chance to

be fully present where I was because

I was just, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with

long distance dating, right. But

if you're going to long distance date, you have to

take the effort to be

as much as you can present in both places

at both times. Right. or split that in a healthy

way where I feel like I was never present at that

time where I should have been, you know what I mean? and

that was really bad. and then

the other kind of third element was,

in that dating relationship and elsewhere,

like many college kids do, I definitely went

down that kind of moral

slippery slope where I kind of

allowed myself to experiment with things

and then also be like, oh, I'm not immediately

reaping a negative consequence. So all those

things that I was told about how this thing is bad for you

must not be true. But of course, I'm not

an idiot. I believe that I was saved this whole

time, possibly, I'm not sure, but I feel that

way. So I had

a conscience, I feel like I had the Holy Spirit. I can

remember making really dumb decisions that I

knew were destructive and having the conversation in

my head and being like, this is bad, it's going to

hurt you, it disappoints God, all

these things and me just being like, just cramming that

down and acting like that wasn't real. so anyway, to

answer that question, I don't think there's like a particular moment. But I think

that allowing myself to not

try to be present where I was

desperately desiring an identity that was

not found in Christ or in my

true identity as a Christian and then,

basically taking gambles with things that I knew

were sinful and dangerous. So

those kind of three elements are what brought me

there.

Gage is probably going to ask a question, but you just had me thinking, my

favorite show that should have gotten extended next, it

was freaks and geeks. And, there's this very

classic scene where they're at the dinner table. I

think they're talking about smoking or drinking. And

the dad's response is, well, aunt

so and so used to smoke and drink. You know, what happened to them?

They died. It felt

like that kind of.

I don't think the people we grew up with, the adults,

the leaders in our life, intended to do that. But that

scene resonates because it's like

you're going to read a book on open theism, you know, what happens to

people. You're going to die Eternally.

And I remember too, very much the

feeling, even though I knew, like I said, that it wasn't true, there

was very much that lie in my ear, that

if you do this, you're going to die. And I did it and

I didn't die.

Yeah.

So it must be fine, that sort of thing,

right? anyway, yeah.

On the upslide, though, so that was happening when I was in

college. Pretty dark time when, I think back to it. It's

actually funny because it feels so distant

now. that next year,

next fall will be like my ten years out of college.

So it hasn't been like that long, but it

feels tremendously distant. because I feel like

I'm a different person. It feels very different. But

anyway, so I'm in this really bad place.

I'm considering dropping out of school

at this time. And I'm being told by a

professor that I really respect. I will never forget this. He

pulls me into his office and says,

if you end this semester the way that you ended the

last couple, he's my advisor and

he's like, I'm going to recommend you be removed from school.

And I remember it just like. And I was a

straight A student in high school. Very

shocking to hear that. It just wasn't who I

was. and that was a little bit of a wake up call, but not

enough to really turn the gears. So

this brings me to, why am I involved in forefront and stuff,

right? I'm going

to drop out of school. I have no plans. My relationship with my

parents is iffy at this point because they're really

disappointed and confused and all this sort

of stuff. And I have no idea

what's going on. And this one

professor that I have for a random class, like,

not even a core class, she is also the

director of the theater at the school. She directs two

shows a year. And,

to this day, I don't understand why she did

this, but thank God she did.

So she starts having a

conversation with me one day in class about

different jobs that are necessary to

make a historical play

work. Right? We're talking about that.

If you're unfamiliar with drama, there's a position called

the dramaturg, and there's a study called

dramaturgy, which is essentially

doing research to maintain the

historical and aesthetic accuracy

of a play that takes place in a particular time or place.

Yeah. So she's talking to me about dramaturgy, and I'm like, well,

that's interesting. Never heard anything of it before. Whatever.

I guess I expressed some interest or whatever

out of the blue. No evidence that I could pull

this off. In fact, only evidence to the contrary.

Like, I think I was doing poorly in her class.

She asked me if I wanted to be the

dramaturg and assistant student director

for the spring play, and I was,

like, completely taken aback.

I was like, I don't do that. I don't do

theater, whatever. And she was like, I think

you can do it. It was almost like

she, knighted me. She was like,

because I say so, you can do this, right?

And I remember thinking, okay, this sounds like

fun. But then slowly, that evolved into,

I must do this, because

she chose me to do it, and I won't

let her down. You know what I mean? And I had barely

a relationship with her at this time. So,

long story short, she took this

chance on me for no apparent reason

at the time. And, I

tucked fully into doing

this research for this play we were doing. It's John

Logan's Red. Fantastic play.

Anyway, so I'm doing all this research

hours at night, working in her office,

researching stuff, giving her reports of what I'm

finding, working with the actors, talk about these things,

the set designers, all this stuff. And then I start

noticing that I'm doing, like, I picture this as, like, a

montage, like a movie in my head, all the. That music's playing, on. But anyway,

that's happening. I start realizing that, like,

oh, wait, when I do a bunch of research and show the

actors what I've found or whatever, that's effective, why don't

I do that for my classes as well? So then I

start applying that same effort

elsewhere as well. My grades start going up.

I start making real, authentic friendships by

working with these people. Like, colaboring with people

towards some end, right? I start to build authentic

friendships. and literally every

negative pattern that was

happening

starts turning around because of

this one offer that was given to me,

right. An offer I didn't deserve at all.

and then meanwhile, all this is happening.

We're working on the show, blah, blah. As I'm working on the

show, she recommends that I take this

spring class on, basically,

just like, aesthetics or, like, the, the philosophy

of beauty. And so

that semester, I immersed myself in working on this

beautiful play and studying

what God

and the canon of world

philosophers have thought about beauty.

And, long story short, I

fell in love with God

all over again in a completely new way,

and felt so

energized and connected

to God

by creating something beautiful

and giving it to someone else in the form of,

producing awesome stuff for these actors

and set designers or whatever, then putting on that

show and watching people come and see it and

experience something that they could not have experienced if we had

not labored for it. You know what I mean? And so

I felt that,

for lack of a better word, I felt like a

kinship with the

divine that I had never felt before.

I get why God created man now.

and that was just huge. So ever

since then, I've just had this thirst

for, beauty and

truth, and I think that that is the

way that we see God most. And

so, I've gone on a journey since

then. I plugged back into church

during that season as well. and I started going to churches where

I found the most beauty. And, I

grew tremendously as a Christian in the

following five years or

so. Moved, back here to

Rochester. I go to Grace Road Church here in

Rochester. Love it there.

beautiful building over there. No, but,

I'm sure that we can direct this.

Yeah, no, thanks so much to get into there. Thanks

for sharing all that. So that last

bit, there's two pieces I want to hit on here. But first, that last

bit you're talking about how you

say it, was

both encoUntering,

experiencing. Seeing beauty in a new

way and the experience of

participating in creation.

kind of birthed this new thirst

in you that ultimately. And then you kind of

said that bit quickly, kind of brought you back

to church, and there. Can you dig into that a

little bit? How did that push you towards

church again?

So what's the name of the series again?

Why do I still follow Jesus? Okay,

essentially, your episode is why do I still follow

Jesus? Christianity is beautiful.

Yeah. so the reason why I asked that is

because why do I still follow

Jesus? Because he is the

most beautiful thing that has

ever existed. And I am absolutely

convinced now that he is the source of all

beauty. So I am

absolutely enamored with beautiful things,

and I am absolutely convinced that

they're only beautiful because he

pours himself into them. Everything that's

beautiful in the world is that way because

he has put himself in there. Yeah.

How'd you get there? Walk us a little more through that season.

How'd you get there? From a course on aesthetics

and being, co director of this play.

Yeah. it's hard to

answer that question without breaking down the philosophy of

aesthetics. But basically, no, but like, give us a taste.

Yeah.

And this has happened throughout history, right. But,

in post enlightenment Europe, so, like,

modern Western Europe, there's a ton of

discussion about

what is beauty? Why is beauty, does

beauty matter? A lot of discussion about that. And this is

referred to as. So

the, While

a lot of philosophers in this era were very questioning

of the existence of God, Europe at that time

was largely, almost entirely

informed by Christian thought, right? So

this idea that

things that are beautiful. Why are things beautiful in the

world, whether you're a Christian or not, right. What,

what is beauty? Beauty is things that are

orderly, they're ordered, they're structured,

they're predictable, they're,

resonant, they're

cordant. so like music.

That is, you play a number of notes that

sound well together, right? That's

cordance. And then in, the

things that are beautiful are balanced, right?

and then we also find contrast beautiful.

And we find contrast beautiful because it's drama.

So if you look at a piece of visual art that has a tremendous amount

of contrast, why is that arresting to you? It's the same

reason why we love

revenge of the Sith, because,

there's drama and pain, right?

Do we love revenge of the Sith?

We do. I don't know about you,

but, I was trying to think of something that most

people have seen that's very dramatic. so anyway, that

sort of thing. and then I started realizing through the study of

aesthetics, right, that,

all forms of creativity, be

it fine art, music,

literature, painting, right, but

also cooking

and. home,

repair and all these things, right,

are all ways that we

bring order and balance to

a world that has been

deconstructed by the fall of man

and the entrance of sin into the world. So

once I realized that, wait a minute.

The work of the artist or the

creator or anybody, even if

you're like a lawn maintenance

person, right? Yeah.

Why do we maintain our lawns? Because we're

bringing order and balance to a

world that is

unbalanced and chaotic. And has thorns and

weeds and stuff like that. Right. so if

you're unfamiliar with kind of Christian,

aestheticism, right. The idea that

it is part of the mandate that God

gave Adam and Eve. And then even more so, the

mandate that God gave the disciples the great

commission as well, I, think can be translated to the fact

that God created a perfect world that was beautiful

in every way. And then due to

the fall of man, the world has

been invaded by an

ungodly nature, an Antichrist.

Nature has invaded the world. And

God will one day restore all things

not only to how they were in the garden, but into a better

place than the better way than they were in the garden. And

what will make them better? The fact that

humanity will be there in a perfected

way. And the work that we have done to

colabor with God to restore the world will be

there. So, everything

that we do to, like,

when you sweep your kitchen floor,

you're actually doing art. When

you sweep the floor, you are

taking away chaos and discord

from God's creation to make it more beautiful.

And we do that in.

It's easy to see how that's done when you take, like,

a rundown old house or something. And then

you hire an excellent, interior

designer and an awesome craftsman

team. To make a rundown old house into, like,

this beautiful, whatever your

style is. Right. Picture it in your mind. Right. We can

see how that's like, wow. But that's

what God does. He takes broken

stuff and puts balance and

color and drama and

truth into them. And makes them

what they're meant to be.

That's extremely deep and remarkable. Thank

you.

but that's not the end of

your first deconstruction.

Dark night of the soul. seems like.

Okay.

Sorry. I'm answering your question.

Oh, no.

You answered Gage's question.

But.

I want to kind of bring us back to kind of

where.

Actually, let me really quick. I think the answer to your

question, which I should have just started with.

No, I should have just started with, how did

that become what I was just talking about?

Right. Yeah.

And I think the answer is, I didn't feel like I had anything to live

for M until I understood

that what we're all living for

is helping to participate with God's

restoration of the world. So now I see everything

as participation with that. So that's

what happened.

So that's actually a perfect segue because I

think some people feel like I go through a season of

doubt, I go through a season of deconstruction,

I go through that. I'm good.

And you can come to that conclusion. I'm part of this

grand master story and drama. But

you've experienced one within the last five

years or so.

Yeah. So I have

toyed around, for Drama's sake, with the

term deconstruction.

I'm assuming this is what you're getting at. I've had what I can

call bring.

Us up to speed for the listeners on timeline. So we're just talking

about your new encounter with God and beauty.

That was when, let's say, like

2013, about like ten years ago.

Okay.

you get married.

Yeah.

Pittsburgh, move back to life.

Was awesome after that point. Got something to live for.

Got an awesome social circle. Now

going to church. Plugged into an awesome church.

Graduated college. Things are going well.

Connected with my now wife who went to Grove City, but we didn't know

each other there, ironically. so that's

awesome. Things are looking up. I decided

to, pursue being an English teacher.

Love literature, love

young people, just worked out. I went back to school for

that. I went to Roberts Wesleyan here in Rochester for

my master's, degree. That's all happening in this

kind of time period. I'm really plugged into my faith during

this, so during this

whole season, I'm attending Anglican church

member, of an Anglican church. That is, if you're a

theology church history nerd. It was an

ACNA church plant. So conservative wing

of the Anglican church. I was attracted to

it because of its historic

nature and its deep

focus on beauty. I forget who said

this, but a church historian said that the

thing that

differentiates Protestant denominations is

their second book. So the idea is

Protestants hold the Bible about either prima

or sola scriptura, right? And then there's a second book

that they use. So, like, the Presbyterians use

the, Westminster Catechism, the Lutherans use the

Book of Concord, right? And the Anglicans use the Book of

Common Prayer. So m. I remember being absolutely

struck by the fact that there's this

beautiful book of extremely

orderly, effectively

poetry. it's like an

extension of the psalms. And I was like,

this is just beautiful. And then, not only the fact, then that and

the fact that C. S. Lewis,

but, Yeah, evangelicals

love to identify with Cs Lewis, but C. S. Lewis

would not be happy with evangelicals. He was a

hardcore high church Anglican,

Big Eucharist, guy. Anyway,

no smoking machines, but anyway, yeah, but

anyway, So I've always been enamored with

that sort of thing, but I'm going into Anglican church.

I got confirmed in that church,

and actually participated as a lay minister, helped,

with the sacraments and, stuff like that, which was just a

beautiful season. I feel like I just grew tremendously in

that time. but during that, I'm also

kind of exposed to. I don't know if this is the right

term, but what I'm going to call historic

Christianity and I'll define what I mean by

that. What I mean is I started

learning by conversation and listening to

podcasts and whatever, that

the belief that I had

grown up with, which I'm going to kind of lump together, I'm sure I'm going

to bother somebody with this, but kind of like the

Baptist, evangelical,

nondenominational way of seeing

Christianity, was

very new in the history of

Christianity.

Hm.

So while Baptists love to

point to the fact that there have been effectively Baptists from

the very beginning of the Church history, and granted,

the vast majority of

organized Christianity, be it Roman

Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or

otherwise, have all

agreed on a number of

main tenets. So, like, even high church

Protestants, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Anglicans

agree on

arguably more things with the Catholic and

Orthodox Church than they do with the evangelical faith I grew

up with. So here comes

my deconstruction.

So starting in probably

2016 or 2017, I

really deeply encountered this through a close

friendship with a Byzantine Catholic

priest. Weird circumstance, how

we became friends, but that's for another.

But. So I start hanging out with this guy like multiple

times a week, and we're just talking. he invites me to his

church. He's a seminary in a Cyrilla

method Byzantine seminary in Pittsburgh,

whatever. And he basically, just among other

people, opens my eyes to the fact that my

version, my interpretation of

Christianity is

only like 50 years old. Like 50,

60 years old. and I

realize this is arguable, right? But

it feels like I'm

knocked off my feet by this

reality. I'm like, wait a minute,

like the joke I just made about C. S. Lewis, it

rocked me when I started to realize that heroes

of the Christian faith that I admire

would probably not even consider me

a Christian because my theology

has gone so astray.

From, And before you think where I'm

going, right, I have reconciled these things,

I think. But at the time,

I'm thinking if I met C. S.

Lewis or Tolkien

or even, people like, Charles

Spurgeon, like people that a lot of us

admire, but also Martin Luther,

John Calvin. Like Martin Luther and John

Calvin would not, I

believe, affirm the

authenticity of non denominational Christianity. I

think they would see it as, like, a heretical

sect. Luther, for sure, because Luther thought

Calvin was.

But I think, famously Calvin would not,

admit someone into

his group if

they, didn't fast twice a week.

Wow, I hadn't heard that one,

which.

Is foreign to most of us, but.

It'S very ironic to me. And if you've never had this

thought, sorry, but

it always strikes me as funny when I'm sitting in

a non denominational evangelical church and

people are proudly quoting

Luther or Calvin or whoever,

as if he's one of us. And I'm

like, if Luther rose from the grave and, came

to this church, he would decry you

from the pulpit. You know what? So, anyway,

so, long story short, I always say that as a

transition. But what I mean, though, is

that I really got shaken.

And when I say shaken, this is why

I'm toying with the word deconstruction, because I was not

shaken at any point, thank God,

in my belief in

God or in my faith

that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Messiah and the savior

of the world. At no point was I

worried about that. However, I

became deeply

paranoid that the

Jesus that I had been

sold, By Browncroft,

and every other evangelical experience that I had

was a farce, M and

that the true Jesus

was found elsewhere and that I had been

sold a cheap counterfeit.

And there was a period of

probably a year and a half or maybe two

years,

probably from 2017 to almost

2020. I was in

a different kind of dark night where

I was very

anxious at

all times, constantly trying to consume more

information. and I had this deep, deep

fear that

the, like, the pathway

through the narrow gate

to true life with

Christ was much narrower than I had ever

thought, and that

most people that I knew that called themselves

Christians were horribly deceived and

that we weren't actually Christians at all.

And, that led me,

basically to the Roman Catholic Church.

and I don't want to spend too much time on that,

but my idea.

Yeah, wait, actually, if you would pause, because I think this is

a powerful moment, because I think a lot of our

listeners probably relate to a lot of what you

just said. I know I have, in parts of my own journey

as well, feeling, like the Christianity

they've known their life is

this modern,

m inauthentic expression

of an ancient thing.

I don't know about. I might just for

the sake of it, like, if not inauthentic,

just something that's so shallow that

it barely even touches.

Imagine,

there's like this huge, nutritious meal

spread on the table, right? And God has

offered this Thanksgiving meal, and then

I go to a spot and they're

only feeding me gravy. And they're

like, this is church, this is God. but the

entire table has been set.

I felt like in the evangelical

American Church, I was just being fed gravy

when everything else was there.

Well, and one thing to point out, because I want to hear your

response to Gage's question.

There's something very unique about what you

both have kind of experienced with kind of this tie to historic

Christianity. But as a pastor, there's also

something that's kind of universal,

is

we tend to question where we grew

up.

Sure. And so we tend, I have not thought about

that.

I meet individuals that follow Jesus

that grew up Catholic.

And all of a sudden they become evangelical.

Right.

And I think it's a powerful thing to think about.

which was my parents journey.

Yeah. So I think that in many ways, sometimes

we don't sit back and stop and think

about how much am I

responding to what I grew up anyway?

And how much are we just like penduluming,

like every generation. It's like, oh, Mommy and

Daddy taught me this, so this. And then

my kid's going to be like the

most modern Christian you ever seen. Right.

Anyway, so, yeah, I know. Because we've

already established you go to Grace Road currently.

Right?

And so you currently not a Catholic church.

It's not even, in the grand scheme of things, a

very liturgical church. It's similar to Browncroft

in that it's more modern

evangelical. So we know this

place that you just described, you didn't stay in.

But I wanted to acknowledge that because I think it

has some weight. So then

what?

I use a lot of analogies, so we'll see if this works.

But I didn't stay

there. But imagine that

this journey into historic Christianity

was, I went on this

quest through these different denominations and

I kind of climbed the pretty predictable ladder.

most nondenominational churches are

effectively Baptist, like, theologically

speaking. Right. So I was like, okay, the next step

above Baptist is kind of like Presbyterian, and then you

can go, like Lutheran, then you can go Anglican, then

you go Catholic, then you go Orthodox. Right? So

that sort of thing. Right.

So I followed the staircase, if that makes sense, and

each step up the staircase, as I was researching and

learning more, even though now I'm

kind of back where I started, I gained

a ton of treasure along the way. Like, if I went

on, the Tolkien esque there and back again,

right? I brought the dragon gold back, you know what?

but basically. So that being said, what I

have realized and why do I

still follow Jesus?

Do I think that? Like I said, I think Jesus

and beauty are inextricably connected, right?

So when I started following this

staircase, it was because I was following the

beauty. Where

is

ancientness and depth and

beauty and art and, stuff like that, right. And things that

aren't going to blow away in the wind. The

evangelical church, for all its

good, tremendous good, don't get me

wrong. It has a model

where we change our aesthetics and

our function as quickly as the

culture does, right. And there's

great positives to be said about that. But at the time, I was

like, that's not rooted in

anything. It's like nothing, right? So I kept climbing up

this ladder, and then

I started really questioning, because the question

was, I realized that if I accept this

trail, which is

Christ is only found where all this beauty is,

right. I have to accept that Christ was

not authentically present

everywhere else that I've encountered him. And

then that was really difficult because

it's one thing, and I still affirm, actually,

that Christ may be,

being worshipped in a more fuller

sense in some of these more historic

settings. Maybe I'm not a

theologian. However,

I cannot affirm that he was not there

working mightily in the most

least historic Christian environments I've ever been a part

of. And so I started really wrestling with, like,

okay, if, the

way that church has been done for as far back

as the first century, right, is the only

way, which is the claim of a lot of these churches, that

this is the only way you can authentically encounter

Christ, well, then,

what about everything that happened to me when I was a kid?

What about the evangelicals

that brought me out of the dark pit

in college? What about the act

of, I think, probably

conscious grace that

professor granted to me to pull

me out of that hole? God

was working in those places

mightily, clearly to me.

hold on 1 second, though, because.

I know we want to talk about beauty. But I think this is

actually pretty important for our listeners.

Yeah.

Because I don't know, all day.

So you got to direct me.

I think there's a problem in

evangelical churches

of we need the kids to get

it right.

Yes.

And so listening to your story, you use

the word anxiety because you

said, hey, I need to get it right.

I'm a parent of two wonderful little

girls, and,

I'm married to a therapist, so I've accepted I will mess

my kids up. I'm a broken, sinful person.

But you think about those Bible classes that

did so much for you. But

I think that part of our

generation, as millennials, struggled with, was,

you need to get it right. And some of us, with the anxiety,

we went super deep. And so

we're like, so you go up the staircase

and it's like, well, I have to find the most

accurate version of Christianity and

other people when they start going down the accurate

road. And so I think where I want

to kind of transition you just for a second

is there's the get it right piece that leads

people to different directions. But you talked

about beauty. But ultimately, if we were to talk about

anything that sets Christianity apart, no matter how

theologically deep, is love.

Yeah.

It's the power of

somebody taking you in.

And that's all in your story.

Yes, absolutely. And I'm glad you picked that

up.

I think, absolutely. That

love that other people showed me

unconditionally is what has pulled me

along this road.

and I think that's God's love being

tooled through people. But I think that, the

other thing that sets Christianity apart

from every other faith

is the fact that it's about God, it's not about

me. And what I mean by that is the

fact that in

every other faith, as far as I'm

aware, you do have to get it right.

You have to have the proper knowledge,

you have to have the proper behavior, you have to do

the right ritual to ensure that you

are forgiven or whatever.

Right. But in Christianity, and this is what

I learned going up and down the staircase.

In Christianity, it's about your

heart and it's about your intent, and it's about

your desire to

authentically relate with your creator.

And I'm not saying that just by having

that desire, though C. S. Lewis might argue,

fact that I think

that when we read the words of Christ,

right, he is

constantly admonishing the religious

for making it really

matter. Is your theology

in line with mine? Is your ritual in line

with mine, whatever. And Jesus is

like, hey, I'm right

here.

so, again, I have tremendous

value for the older traditions

now that I didn't have, like, five, six years ago. but

I also realized that

where is Jesus found? Where is God's love

found? And I think it's found

everywhere that he's sought. You know what I

mean? I, think he will make himself present

wherever two or more are gathered in his name, right, as Scripture

says. And I think that we become.

So I recommend everybody, right, look

into the deeper, older forms of Christianity.

But also remember that

Christ came for the meek, and he came

for the

outliers. Right. And he came for

where you don't expect to see him, right?

That's where he was found, right? So whenever

we limit, like, oh, Christ can't

be outside these walls that we created,

right? Now we're becoming Pharisees.

And I think that

I had to go there to feel

what that would be like. You know what I mean?

I don't know if that worked with what you were saying.

No, I think it did, because I

think in this series,

I think there's a conception out

there. Engage. I'd kind of like you to respond to this. There's a

conception out there that

verbally will tell people you can't doubt

or deconstruct or read a book.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Or read a book on open theism.

Yeah, please do. my,

doubts and

explorations have only brought me closer

to God. And I'm sure

that you can find examples of people that have been led

astray, surely. But,

you know, the idea that. I don't know the idiom,

but there's this idea that

truth being like a lion, you don't have to defend

the truth. It just defends itself. You just open the cage.

Right. Truth exists, and

truth is

empowered by an

almighty God. So God

is not afraid of you

looking for the truth. He's there, and

he's in control of what you find and what you don't

find. You know what I mean? And I think

that when we live in anxiety,

that we're not allowed

to doubt, we're not allowed to

explore, we're not allowed to stumble.

I think that separates us from God.

This has been a very rich conversation, rich, pun

intended. we probably need to have you on

again, but I kind of want

to come to kind of a close. So maybe,

before we get to our final remarks, why

don't you just kind of wrap up, kind of,

you have this first experience with beauty.

It almost matches the story of the

disciples. The disciples first meet Jesus. They begin to

follow him. And then, however, I grew up

Pentecostal. So you have the baptisms in the Holy

Spirit, but it's almost as if

the first deconstruction was to bring you back

to Jesus. And this second deconstruction is

almost like a second work of grace.

Yeah.

What was that like?

It's almost,

I think a good summary of everything that we've talked about is

the fact that I am absolutely

convinced now of the fact

that God has been

clearly, directing my

path each step of the

way, in ways that sometimes even

appear supernatural. And I think

that the highs and lows that I've experienced

have been purposeful.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think that God

causes us to sin and then therefore

feel the repercussions of our sin. But God

directs our lives in such a way that I think

that the highs and lows that I have experienced have been

very purposely designed by God to

make me the man I am today.

And I look forward

to what he's going to continue to do in that way.

Like, I'll give you an example. When I was at Grove City in that

dark period, I desperately wanted

to leave. And again, when I think back, it's so

funny. And it shows me how

ungodly of a position I was in at the time.

Because when I think back, there was, like, no reason why I should

have wanted to leave, but I desperately wanted to get away. You

know what I mean? And so I applied to a

number of schools all over the place. Like,

I shotgunned applications out there to

schools that were way below my,

resume, effectively, and I got

denied from everyone.

Now, you may be thinking, wow, maybe you weren't as

smart as you thought. No, but what I'm saying is, it literally,

like, multiple people commented that they were like, it makes

no sense that you didn't get into any of those schools. Like, there's

no sense to it. And I think God was

clearly putting up a barrier

because he had something for me at Gross City.

And, if I had left,

none of that stuff that I told you about would have

happened. And I think he put me through

the wringer of applying to all these schools and getting rejection letter

after rejection letter that made zero sense.

So that I would, like, he was like,

I want you here. Feel

all these doors that should be open. I'm closing

them one after another. So you realize that I don't want you to go through

any.

Trust him, people.

Yeah.

Tweet that. Well, we're definitely going to have

to have you back on again. you know what?

So much more we could get.

We haven't even talked about forefront yet.

Well, we have done some Christmas

episodes. That's, true. I guess what we can do

with forefront too, is we always like to make

podcasting decisions. We have a third series coming

up. we're calling it questions of our day,

also known as Spicy questions. One of our co hosts,

Alyssa Matz. I think we have a place for.

You in the hot takes. Let's do it.

All right, final remarks. Gage, where

do you want to go?

All right. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Like, we've already

said so much, so

many conversations we've opened that we could get so

much deeper into. I so appreciate our friendship. I

so appreciate your journey, your

honesty, your openness, sharing it with us.

yeah, a million things. But I'm going to

maybe a little ambitiously try

to wrap up two themes

that came out from this conversation

to me. And one was the predictable, the

beauty aspect, because we knew coming in

this conversation, we were going to talk about that. But then the other

thing I didn't know coming in here

was that theme you just hit on pretty heavily,

with that doors analogy is

God's hand, God's guiding

hand, and I would say even redeeming

hand. and I think those two,

beautifully wrap together

because it's in fact the beauty

God makes out of

our wandering or

tragedy that befalls us

or around us. Darkness in the

world, that I think is so

powerful, it wouldn't be.

Well, I shouldn't say that.

I'm going to not resist the temptation right

now to mention Tolkien in an episode on

Beauty. And I just can't help thinking of the.

And 90% of what we talked about with C. S.

Lewis.

Fight.

Fight. Well, I

can't resist thinking of the beginning, the opening of

the Silmarillion, where for

our listeners, who I purposely chose.

Not to go there. So thank.

Excellent, excellent.

for those who aren't familiar with it, it's this gorgeous

poetic narrative, where this

God figure in Tolkien's world

universe, the creator figure,

yeah. has created these beings, these angelic

like beings, and wants to invite

them into the role of co creating with him Middle

earth. And he does it

via Ah, song. you can't hit any harder

on the beauty and art metaphor here.

Right.

or the creator, this, and

Aslan.

Creates Narnia through song, as that's true.

Yeah, they were friends,

so. Makes sense. but in the Silmerali,

in this work of Tolkien, the God figure invites these

angelic beings into creating Middle earth through song. But then some of

them start singing dissonantly. We talked a

minute about resonance. but some of them

start singing dissonantly, and at

first seeming to throw off the song. And this happens time

and time again, but each time,

Tolkien's God character weaves

the discord into a new layer of

the song. More beautiful than it was before.

Yeah.

Read the opening to the Silmarillion. It's way more beautiful

than I paraphrase just now.

I got a quick, really, practical, one for

you. Ready? Who's seen the Prince

of Egypt? Come on. All right, so the

Prince of Egypt. I talk about epics in my 9th grade

class, right? Foundational epics. So we talk about the

Iliad and the Odyssey for the Greeks, right? And then I talk

about the Exodus for a Judeo Christian society,

right? The Exodus.

Pretend for a minute that the Exodus was an entirely fictional

story. Absolutely

incredible drama. Incredible

story, right? Like, the Prince

of Egypt is found

in a basket, and he's a Hebrew, and then

he goes and frees his people against his

brother. Incredible, right?

The God

puts the

pharaoh, kills the firstborn sons, right? Which,

of course, prefigures Christ, which is insane,

right? But the pharaoh kills the firstborn sons, she

puts her baby in a basket, all these horrible things,

right? Moses kills a man and runs

away into the desert, right? All these horrible

experiences create a beautiful

drama, and that's what God's doing out here. He's creating

a beautiful drama, and he's using us to do it. And

dramas are pretty boring if there's no

downslides. So if you're in a

bad spot right now, it's part

of God's awesome story.

Well, I'll just give two final remarks, because

actually, we went out of order, but that was

great. I had a

professor in college. He was actually a Greek professor. His name was Wes

Smith. Had a huge impact on my life. The one

phrase he repeated to us always was, make Jesus

believable and beautiful, invisible to every

person you meet. And, I

get a little emotional thinking about it because

in this episode, I want to put beautiful first

or third. but there's something

about when Jesus is

believable, he then becomes

beautiful and then becomes visible. And

I think about that and the last thought that I

have having two little girls, were reading the

Jesus storybook Bible. I'm going to butcher this line,

but there's a story about this woman named Leah that everyone

thinks is ugly. And Sally Lloyd Jones

in this, she has this beautiful phrase that

hopefully somebody will get right. But,

God thought Leah was beautiful,

and therefore she was beautiful. It was just

this play on words that

just hearing your story in a very simplistic

God thought Rich was beautiful, therefore he

was beautiful. And Gage and

I think that it's the

beauty and,

it's the outsideness of the

story that brings us.

Rich, we're going to talk about forefront at some point,

but just tell people where to.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Check out what we do at, forefrontfestival.com

and you can check us out on Instagram and Twitter and stuff

at.

Yeah. And come to our artist circle third Thursdays of every

month. Yeah, look it up. Look it up.

Awesome.

You don't have to be an artist. You just have to love beautiful stuff. And friends, come

on out.

Thank you so much for joining us. You can find us at the

whygodypodcast.com. Click the subscribe button.

You'll get this episode and many other ones like it. Thank you so

very much.

You,

Sam.