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HR entrepreneur Mike Coffey, SPHR, SHRM-SCP engages business thought leaders about the strategic, psychological, legal, and practical implications of bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. As an HR consultant, mentor to first-stage businesses through EO’s Accelerator program, and owner of Imperative—Bulletproof Background Screening, Mike is passionate about helping other professionals improve how they recruit, select, and manage their people. Most thirty-minute episodes of Good Morning, HR will be eligible for half a recertification credit for both HRCI and SHRM-certified professionals. Mike is a member of Entrepreneurs Organization (EO) Fort Worth and active with the Texas Association of Business, the Fort Worth Chamber, and Texas SHRM.
It's a question of knowing that strengths exist and thinking about how we can adjust things internally and externally to play those people's strengths. Once we do that, I mean, you've fountain, you know, a diamond in the rough, and it's amazing to see what these people can do.
Mike Coffey:Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of Imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. And this is the podcast where I talk to business leaders about bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. Please follow, rate, and review Good Morning HR wherever ever you get your podcast and on your favorite social media platform. You can also find us at goodmorninghr.com.
Mike Coffey:Back in January, I spoke to Nikki Drader Meza and doctor Jenny Lopez Kidwell about their research into neurodiversity hiring and socialization. And then I spoke to Ron Fish about the challenges neurodiverse individuals have in applying, interviewing, and acculturating in the workplace. We return to that topic today with doctor Matthew Zakreski, author of The Neurodiversity Playbook, How Neurodivergent People Can Crack the Code of Living in a Neurotypical World, which was released last December. Doctor Matt is a clinical psychologist who specializes in working with neurodivergent people. He is also a conference speaker and advocate for supporting neurodivergent people in all walks of life, from school to college to the workplace.
Mike Coffey:And he is the cofounder of the Neurodiversity Collective, an online consulting and therapy private practice. Welcome to Good Morning HR, Matt.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Hi, Mike. Thanks for having me.
Mike Coffey:So you this has been a hot topic for us for about a year now. I think you're actually the this is the fourth episode we've done in in about a year's time on, working with neurodivergent and autistic, employees. And while we continue to have a talent crunch, I think more and more employ employers are are still considering how do we do this. But what do you think the most common misconceptions employers have when when they're thinking about bringing neurodiverse employees into the workplace?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Well and I know you've done a bunch of topics on this because I've listened to all of them. So I get to be a fan and a guest. It's the best of both worlds. So there's this idea out there that neurodivergent people are this small niche thing. It's a diversity hire.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:We're checking a box. Do you know one out of five people are neurodivergent? So this isn't just, oh, gosh. It's the one guy in the mail room. This is if you have five people in your c suite, odds are one of them is neurodivergent.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Right? Your marketing department, your sales team, your shipping department. I mean, this is neurodivergence is everybody's world. So that's why people like me try and get out there to to talk about this. Right?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Because the more we talk about it, the more we realize that we're we are all already doing this work, but now we can do it with more intention and support more people because we know what we're doing.
Mike Coffey:So when people are talking about neurodiverse, the first thing that comes to mind for most folks are autistic individuals, people working in in with that set of challenges. But, but you're you're including in that topic people like me with ADHD. And what else? What other things are do we encounter in the workplace?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:So ADHD, autism, dyslexia is a big one. One out of 10 people are dyslexic, so that's a huge number. OCD is another neurodivergence that we see a lot of, and my subspecialty is giftedness. So gifted is about one in fifty, and giftedness is a neurodivergence that comes with significant brain differences, strengths, and weaknesses. So if you have someone who is in your office that it's funny.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:When I consult the schools, I always ask teachers, like, do you have a kid who really pisses you off? Like, kid is like, if they could just get their shit together, and then the sometimes the teachers laugh like, yes. It's Johnny or Sally. I'm like
Mike Coffey:And that was me, but not necessarily because I was gifted. I don't know that part. But, yeah, definitely, that was me. Yeah. Talks too often.
Mike Coffey:You know, when the when you had paper report cards and they would check check mark the things you were not doing well, mine was just a straight line of check marks every six weeks about talks at appropriate times.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:He will not shut up. Oh my gosh. Well and that's the thing because when you have a person whose brain doesn't fit the environment we put them in, you feel more friction. Right? Neurotypical brains are more able to sort of go along to get along.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Neurodivergent brains are like, listen. I will fly you to the moon if it's everything I need. But if this thing's in my way, I'm just only gonna be stuck on this thing that's in my way. So when I talk to HR professionals, I'm like, is there somebody in sales that you're like, if they would only get their stuff together? And they always look at each other like, oh, it's x y z person.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:I'm like, here's how we tweak it to get the best version of that person because that person is likely a neuro neurodivergent person.
Mike Coffey:And I'm in the entrepreneurs organization, so we've got 30,000 plus entrepreneurs, successful entrepreneurs across the world. And the there's two kinds. You know, there's the folks who made a lot of money somehow and bought a company, but then there are people like me who just start did a startup from cold scratch. And I would guess that neurodivergence is is much higher in that population than than just the general population just from my own experience. And maybe it's, you know, maybe that helps some of us because we don't know what the challenges are gonna be.
Mike Coffey:We don't have the maybe the fear that we should have, at the outset, things like that. But when we're talking about neurotypical then, is that just is that just like a baseline based on the median of the population or something, and and then it's like a bell curve? How does that work? What does that look like?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:I mean, you nailed it. Right? That's exactly what it is. And we know that about seventy percent of people are within one standard deviation of the mean. So that more or less tracks onto that eighty percent of the population that's neurotypical.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:And those brains are not better or worse. It's just they largely operate the way that we'd expect them to. You know, my favorite analogy for this is height. Right? So the standard height for an American man is five foot nine.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Right? That's your average median height. So I'm six foot, so I'm about one standard deviation above the mean, but still well within normal bounds. Right? Mhmm.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:My college roommate who's six foot nine is quantifiably different than me. I'm like, sup, Adam. He's like, hey. What's going on down there? Right?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:And Adam needs different things. He needs to shop at different stores. When he was a groomsman in my wedding, he couldn't go to Men's Wearhouse. He had to go to the special store. Right?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Because he's six foot nine and the world doesn't exist. Doesn't easily have things that exist for people with those extreme needs. And and this is where we get into the question of neurodivergence as equity. Because I don't need men's warehouse to stack store to stack items for a guy who's six foot nine or even taller. That's not a good business model for them, but the specialty operations that exist do need to exist to meet the needs of these people because their needs are real.
Mike Coffey:And and so a lot of employers, when they see the equivalent of a six foot nine, you know, potential employee, but it's just in in how a sir a person thinks, behaves, interacts with other people, they see that, I guess, as a deficit that that will you know? And they start, I guess, projecting the challenges into the relationships. What challenges do you think employers often have that are, you know, often either, you know, misguided or incorrect or easily correctable?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:And thank you for asking the question that way. What we often tell people in my line of work is search for strengths. Don't be a deficit detective. It is so easy to look at the neurodivergent person and be like, this is person that I'm never gonna be able to bring to a corporate event. They're not polished enough.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:They're not social enough. They're not They're just weird. They're atypical. And, like, and then once you have that, when that foot is in the door, everything else you see is, like, it's just not worth it. But if you put that person in a position to play to their strengths, their strengths are are are as high, if not higher, than other people.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:So one of the autistic clients I work with, he's the chief of operations for a for the executive vice president of this big company. So he is, you know, he's essentially the chief of staff, and he is the most equitable on top of it person. His stuff is locked down. He's got color coded charts. I've never had a color coded chart in my life.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:And and it's funny. Like, this is a very people facing job, and you wouldn't think you'd hire an autistic person to do that, but he's very good at this is what Sally needs. This is what Bryce needs. Tom is going out on a work call. He'll be gone for ten days.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Who's covering Tom's stuff? Do we have his hotel covered? It's very stepwise for him. Right? So if you put this guy in sort of a traditional, like, client facing role, like marketing or direct sales, he'd probably not be very successful at it.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:But he's got a talent for organization. He's got a brain that thinks really well from a 3,000 foot view, and he doesn't get so caught up in the office politics. He he likes to joke that he's immune to it because he doesn't know what's happening. Like, when people are whispering at the water cooler, he's like he's like, I'm just, like, you know, listening to songs in my head. I'm like, you know what, dude?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:It works for you. Like, lean into it. So it's a question of knowing that strengths exist and thinking about how we can adjust things internally and externally to play those people's strengths. Once we do that, I mean, you've fountain, you know, a diamond in the rough, and it's amazing to see what these people can do.
Mike Coffey:So I'm curious because with almost every other way of slicing the population, whether it's age, race, sex, national origin, or whatever, we try actively not to make assumptions that about their behavior or their, you know, what what they believe or anything like that, at least in our best days. We try not to. But is there science that really does show that there's a there's a high likelihood that neurodivergent people are really going to excel in some area, you know, according to how they're wired that really show, you know, that you can if you put them in the right spot, that they're gonna they're they're likely to achieve at a higher rate than the rest of the population. Is that giftedness that's unique to them? Is that really is that anecdotal, or is there studies to show that?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:There's it's both, but the, I'm gonna focus on the quantitative research here because, right, this where this is an HR podcast. We like numbers. We like data.
Mike Coffey:Right.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Right?
Mike Coffey:Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:What the research shows from the Neurodiversity Employment Network is they found that their neurodivergent people, when they found an appropriate job, they tend to stay longer than the average neurotypical employee. They tend to have better performance reviews, and they tend to make more money for the company when that's a money making role. So sales, something like that. Right? So there are
Mike Coffey:I'm sold.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Yeah. Right?
Mike Coffey:I'm Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:You know?
Mike Coffey:Yeah. Hey. I own my company. I'm sold. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Count me in. Right? And and to me, it's that's because, hey, listen. I'm a psychologist. Right?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:I'm a believing heart by by nature. I would love to stand on my soapbox and be like, it's the right thing to do. And it it it is. It's the unemployment rates in the autistic population alone are are staggering. But more than that, it's just a question of this is an untapped value resource.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Right? And a lot of the companies I talk to are hiring neurodivergent people because they're asking questions that they're not that the companies themselves aren't asking. Right? Is this autistic friendly? Does this work for an ADHD person?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Right? And, you know, Mike, have you ever heard, the story of of the evolution of the FBI?
Mike Coffey:Not in this context no yeah
Dr. Matt Zakreski:it's so when they
Mike Coffey:I yeah
Dr. Matt Zakreski:so when they when they started it they were hiring pre law majors and lawyers from ivy league schools So you have a very particular slice of America, like, largely affluent white men who went to Ivy League schools, which meant they were really, really good at chasing down a certain kind of crime, Really good at white collar crime. They were like, we've got this. We that guy would do a country call with my dad. I know he's he's had his finger in the cookie jar forever. But when they started having to get into organized crime and international crime, these guys couldn't pivot.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:They didn't have the flexibility of Worldview to, like, take in somebody who's, let's say, importing drugs from Central America. Right? That was not a skill set they had. So the FBI had to broaden their talent pool, the people they were recruiting from, to get different skill sets, different world views. And I like to use this, this analogy a lot when I talk to businesses because if we only ever talk to the same people, we fall into an echo chamber.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Right? We're doing great because we all think we're doing great, so we're gonna keep doing great. But if you're talking to an autistic person who's like, this that makes sense for a lot of people, but I'll never use it for this reason. Nine times out of 10, that reason is a data point in marketing that we didn't have, that now we can figure out what we do with. And that's an amazing that's a way for your business to get a leg up.
Mike Coffey:And I've I've got a a good friend who's probably one of the smartest guys I know and is definitely on the autism spectrum. Three master's degrees, Albert dissertation on his PhD, and he's a a valet, overnight at a nice fancy hotel here because it allows him to read all night and and and pursue what he I mean, he's got and he's perfectly content with that. And I'm glad because I learned so much every time we have a meal together, from whatever he's reading. But his expectations, you know, are, you know, are different than what I think most people our age are for what what he wants out of his career in his life. And so I think that's you know that's probably one of the challenges that employers have is not only how do I plug this person into a role that's appropriate to them, how do I incentivize them?
Mike Coffey:What what would you what would you tell an employer about how to incentivize someone who maybe has a value system that's so foreign to your experience that, that you can't, you know, you you know, you just don't understand it?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:So I'll tell a story from when I was in grad school. So I met my wife on the first day of grad school. I'm very extroverted in case that's not abundantly clear, and my wife is very introverted. And we were doing some research for one of our professors, and he's like, you guys crushed it. You coded all this data.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:I'm so proud of you. He's like, I wanna take you guys out to dinner. And I'm like, yay. And my wife's like, for social contact with someone I don't know. So he looks at her.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:He goes, or can I just let you go home early today? And I I swear to god, my wife is gonna burst into tears. Right? Like, yes. That's everything I've ever wanted.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:I've had enough people for today. So so he took me out to dinner. We had a great time. My wife went home and watched reruns of Glee. She had a great time.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:So when we think about our traditional carrots in the business parking place, like happy hours, pizza parties, overnight work trips, For some people, not just neurodivergent people, but, you know, that's our topic for today. For a lot of neurodivergent people, those things are not motivators. In fact, they're actually punishers. Right? I don't want to have to go to the happy hour.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:I would rather just go home early or not have to go to the holiday party or whatever the thing might be and and that to me yeah one of my guys he won the like, a chairman's award for service in his IT thing. He's like, you know what I want as my prize? To not have to go to the ceremony. So they sent him a gift certificate for the amount that the dinner would have been worth. He went out to dinner by himself.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:He was happy as a clam. Like, Like, he sat in the corner booth. He brought a book, and he ordered himself a nice steak. And, honestly, who does it hurt? I don't think it hurts anybody.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:It's getting our own egos out of the way as leadership to say, you know what? If this works for Mike, then let's customize what we're doing in a way that it benefits Mike, that doesn't that isn't about what I thought was a good idea.
Mike Coffey:And let's take a quick break. Good morning. HR is brought to you by Imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. On Thursday, March 20, I'm hosting a webinar entitled alt control the c protecting yourself from remote employee fraud. While many employers recognize the advantages of remote work in attracting and retaining employees, most are unaware of, much less protected from, the risk of illegal activity and fraud unique to the remote environment.
Mike Coffey:Foreign actors like North Korea, fraudulent employment verifiers, and dishonest over employed workers are but a few of the sources of liability, data breaches, and financial loss employers have suffered. Using traditional deception methods and modern artificial intelligence tools like deepfakes, bad actors are targeting unsuspecting employers. In this one hour web inar, I'll discuss some of the ways that dishonest actors have harmed employers and practical steps employers can take to protect themselves. And just like this podcast, the webinar is free and pre approved for recertification credit. You can register or watch the recording later by clicking on the education tab at imperativeinfo.com, where you can also find all my previously recorded webinars.
Mike Coffey:If you're an HRCI or SHRM certified professional, this episode of Good Morning HR has been pre approved for one half hour of recertification credit. To obtain the recertification information visit goodmorninghr.com and click on research credits, Then select episode 191 and enter the keyword playbook that's p l a y b o o k. And now back to my conversation with Matt Zukreski. In the book, you talk about maybe the expectation or the at least the practice, that some neurodiverse people just need to mask their behavior. Talk about what masking is and how it presents in the workplace and how employers can avoid setting up that scenario.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:So masking is what people do when they don't feel safe or comfortable to be themselves. So, you know, if you think back Mike, I don't know if you're partnered. Right? But if you Yes.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. When To a very patient woman for twenty eight years now. Yeah. Who is also could have been your your wife's sister because I'm the extrovert and she's the introvert. She will go to one event with me a week if I'm lucky, and then she just sends me on my way all the other nights.
Mike Coffey:Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:I was gonna say, I was like, I feel like our wives would probably have a lot to talk about. But think back to the first time you met your wife's family. Right? Were you the free and loose, you know, like, cracking jokes version of Mike? Or were you buttoned up?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. Thank you very much, sir. Yes, ma'am. Yes.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:I'd love a cup of coffee. Thank you very much. Like, that is a version of masking. Right? You are putting on a very particular face or or set of behaviors to navigate a particularly stressful moment.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:But neurodivergent people have to do that almost all the time because the world isn't built for us. So if you're, you know, if you're dyslexic and you go out to a business dinner, you can't you may not be able to read the menu. Right? One of my dyslexic adults that I work with, he always orders the special because it's said to him verbally. Right?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:They're like, ah, yes, ma'am.
Mike Coffey:That's what I do. That's what I do in foreign countries too. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Mike Coffey:I've never heard of any of this food, so I'll just dress whatever they got on special. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:You look like you know what you're doing. I'm gonna roll the dice on that. I I did that once in Thailand and got the worst food poisoning I've ever had in my life. But Oh my. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Usually, it works out for me. But that's a little accommodation he gives himself, you know, and he's like, I also often pick up the check because it's hard for me to read the tiny little print on the long receipt. What did I order? Who who got what? You know what?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:It's fine. I'll just put my credit card down. And he's a very genial guy. People like him. It fits his business model.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:But it's like, you think about all the little paper cuts that is. Right? All those little indignities. It it it adds up over time. So we want to create worlds where people understand that there are times where we need to put on the best, most professional versions of ourselves, but also create environments that that people can be comfortable and aligned with their best versions of themselves.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Like, if one of your neurodivergent people has sensory needs, and we can deal with that by putting a door on their office, whereas everybody else has an open floor plan. I'm telling you, what it costs you, what, $300 to put a door in? It it'll pay for itself a thousand times over.
Mike Coffey:No. I'll try to do it myself first. So it'll cost me 700 because somebody's gotta come back and fix all my my screw ups too. But yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:How did you set it on fire? There was no fire involved. Yeah. See, I don't touch that stuff. I I got a guy for it.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:I'm gonna call my guy. Right? But that's the that's the thing. Like, those little things go a long way to to not only incentivizing behavior, but creating an environment where it can thrive. Because, you know, as we say often in my line of work, if the flower's not growing, you don't blame the flower.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:You change the greenhouse. It is so much easier to change the greenhouse than buy a new flower.
Mike Coffey:And so that masking is I mean, you're the psychologist here, but that masking is probably the same or very similar to what we talk about when we're talking about cultural differences and code switching. It's the same kind of thing. And we've had a conversation here in the past about code switching and and the need the the need that people from, you know, different, you know, backgrounds than the majority background, feel that they they have, you know, the need to to speak very differently and and present themselves differently. But there are times where we need that the social expectations or the social norms inside of an organization are there for a reason. How do we help someone who's neurodiverse adapt, successfully where those social norms need to happen in a certain way within some range of of error, I guess.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Absolutely. Well and it's funny you mentioned code switching. That's actually like, that's the the conclusion of my book is that it's not about cracking the code. It's being able to switch into it and switch out of it. Right?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:If the CEO was coming to my table at work, I yes. You better believe I'm gonna I'm gonna be the most neurotypical person you've ever met. Hello, mister CEO. How are you today, sir? How about local sports team and weather?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Right? And then I'll just be like, look at me. I'm doing a good neurotypical. And then I will probably take myself out to lunch and, like, play Pokemon Go as I eat my burger, and I'm fine. Right?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:It's it's really it's knowing the wheres and whens. The the biggest thing for the reality of sometimes we do need to mask, right, is is making that stuff overt, intentional, and visible. So the biggest problem we run into in corporate culture for neurodivergent folks are the unwritten rules. Right? Mhmm.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:You know, and I I I mean, I think
Mike Coffey:What we call common sense sometimes. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:And Okay. And it's common sense because eighty percent of the population is neurotypical, and they largely speak the same language. Their brains work very similarly. So I can say to a neurotypical person, the boss is coming today. They're like, I'm gonna put on my best suit.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:I say that to a neurodivergent person whose brain doesn't work that way, and they're like, oh, cool. We must be doing well as a company. Like, that's a reasonable conclusion to draw. You're not making the same leap, though. So everybody else looks like fresh out of, like, you know, GQ magazine, and I'm wearing my favorite work coding t shirt, and I'm crunching I'm destroying code today.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:I'm killing it. But the CEO comes in, like, who's this unkempt dude? And I'm like, I'm your best coder, sir. Mhmm. Alright.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:You know? So so when there are cultural norms that need to be accounted for, we make the unspoken things spoken. Right? We say, hey. Here's exactly what I expect from you in this situation.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Here's what to do, and here's what not to do. And taking the extra five minutes to name those things for your neurodivergent employees, that I mean, they'll follow the rules forever. They just need to know what they are.
Mike Coffey:And companies wanna bring in diverse people for a variety of reasons. And one of the things that we've really found in the last five years is tokenism doesn't work. It's not a good business plan. It's not fair to the employees you're bringing in. And it certainly don't wanna set the culture where people assume that somebody who has whatever traits are are there because of those traits rather than their ability to to perform the role.
Mike Coffey:How can an avoid an employer avoid avoid tokenism when they're bringing actively trying to bring in, attract, and and retain neurodivergent employees?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:So this is when we get into the idea of what we call universal design. So the best practices that accommodate the most people are just the best practices. Right? So if your company is up four stairs from the parking lot, let us bulldoze those stairs and put in a ramp because everybody can get up a ramp. Right?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Not just the person, you know, not just the able-bodied people. Right? Sure. And that could be someone who sprains their ankle playing basketball or somebody who, you know, took a spill on the ice or a million other things. Right?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:But ramps, everybody can get in a ramp. You know? And if you have a company where you can work from home as long as you let your team leader know, then we're not highlighting the neurodivergent folks who can't be around other people all the time. It's, you know, Stella from HR or Mike from, you know, from the c suite or Tony, your autistic IT specialist, they all can work from home when they need to because reasons because life happens. Right?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:It isn't just a specific thing for specific people. Because one of the mental health challenges we see a lot in retaining neurodivergent people is the concept of imposter syndrome. Right? The idea is that if you have a thing that makes you different and you are made aware of that difference in overt ways and in subtle ways, it fuels that idea of imposter syndrome. Right?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:If everybody else in the company went to state you and you went to tech, that's enough for your brain to go, maybe they only hired me because they needed somebody from tech. And and that's not necessarily true. But once that anxiety worms its way in there, it can become very insidious, and it can, like, honestly, sabotage the employee from the inside out. So we we make universal universal design as many things as possible. We also create identity groups or leadership groups within your company.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Most companies use the ERG model. Right? Employee resource groups. Right? And I've consulted to probably somewhere around a dozen of those in some pretty big companies just to say, like, here's what we're doing.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Here's how to avoid that tokenism. Let's make actionable advice. Let's have things that people need for a lot of ERGs for neurodivergent people. They may not actually need to meet that often. They just need might need to have a database where you can go and find the thing you need.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Right? Here's how to talk to HR about getting your leave approved rather than, like, does anybody have any questions in our meeting where there's pizza? Because that doesn't necessarily work. Right? So we're we're having internal staffing that becomes that sort of beacon that allows neurodivergent people to go to their people.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:You're using universal design to lower the barrier to entry for every single person in your company. And then the third thing is be overt in your in your messaging. Right? Be overt in the way that we are here trying to make things accessible for every person who works here. And because with other kinds of diversity, someone in a wheelchair, someone of a different nationality, someone of a different skin color, those things are are not easily hidden.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Right? If you have a an employee who wears a hijab, like, they're not they're not gonna hide that. Right?
Mike Coffey:Right.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:But neurodivergence can be an invisible disability. Right? I mean, you mentioned before you have ADHD. I have ADHD as well. I don't know if anybody would know by talking to us.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Right? But if they left us alone in a waiting room and then they come back in and we were doing, like, you know, battle bots with pencils and markers, They're like, oh, then now it's abundantly clear.
Mike Coffey:That makes sense. Right. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:You know? So it becomes this thing where just make your learning process as a company transparent. Say like, hey, we don't have all the answers, but we're taking these steps for these reasons, and we want to know more. And and I think when that kind of I'm fond of saying that neurodivergent people are allergic to bullshit. Right?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Like, you Mhmm. Like, you can't I can see that. Right? You can't lie to us. Like, we'll run through a brick wall for you if we know why we're running through the brick wall.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:So it's like, listen. I'm not gonna sit here and say I have all the answers. Right? That intellectual humility means, oh, man. This guy's not bullshitting me.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:That's awesome. I want onboard with this. I want to build this co created benefit from their growth curve because then everybody in that company knows that it's a living document, not like the 10 commandments handed down from God. Right? And when people know that they're a part of something that's growing and evolving, they invest more into it, and they get more from it.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:So it's sort of a win win.
Mike Coffey:Interesting. To wrap up, so what do I do with all my neurotypical people? I mean, how do I get them ready to not make this a thing that gets in the way of how you know, because we've all worked with neurotypical people who we, you know, who have very strong beliefs about how the way things ought to be. And, you know, and when somebody acts outside you know, colors outside of those lines, it it it makes you know, it it gives them some grief. And so what how do you prepare your neurotypical, employees for especially those more rigid or, you know, who may, who knows, have their own, you know, neurodiversity of their you know, maybe a neurodiverse population all of it to themselves.
Mike Coffey:But how do you prepare them to to work in this different environment where they maybe have people who aren't thinking, behaving the way they expect?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:So I I often call this the supervillain test. Yeah. So if I'm Chuck in sales and I'm neurotypical and I've done things this way my whole life, I was a business major. I get how this works. And then we hire Elizabeth.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:And Elizabeth is ADHD and dyslexic, and she goes about it in an entirely different way. She takes her clients out to coffee. She's always, like, sending, like, little, like, little notes. And you're like, that's not about the business relationship where it's all about the bottom line. And so if they come and talk to the manager, I would say, so we know that this person is atypical.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:They're doing things a different way. Now do you think I'm good at my job? And the person's like, well, of course. We've been working together for years. It's like, so here's the deal.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Either I have a good reason for hiring this person because of their atypicality, so we need to trust me, Or I'm a supervillain, and I'm trying to screw with your career. Right? And it's what it does is it anticipates the emotional argument from your from the employee, and it sort of short circuits it. It's like, I don't like it. I don't get it, but I also know you're not a super villain.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Right? So it it builds a nice framework, a nice barrier around that conversation.
Mike Coffey:That's great.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:You know? And if I can throw one more piece of advice out there, it's good practice for all of us to be very intentional in our language. So we take a lot of shortcuts in when we speak. Like, I might say, oh, hey, Mike. Go get the thing.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:And I know what the thing is. Mike, do you know what the thing is?
Mike Coffey:I have no idea.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:No idea. So I'm gonna get mad at you for not getting the thing that you don't know what the thing was in the first place. Right? And I this is I need this in my parenting workshops all the time, and I cannot tell you how many HR professionals and business managers come up to me. Like, I need to do this at the office.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:I'm like, yes. You do. Right? Say what you mean and mean what you say. Right?
Dr. Matt Zakreski:So if if I'm using a turn of phrase that's like actually, this is a very adorable example. One of my one of my, gifted employees, he works for a pretty pretty big real estate firm. You know, he was talking to somebody who'd just been transferred into the office, and he's like, oh, hey. How are you doing? He's working on small talk.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:We're very proud of him. And the guy's like, oh, you know, man. One more one day closer to death. Right? One of those things that you say, and it's like, you know, it's a little bit gallows humor.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:It's a little bit life is hard. I get it. I'm here for it. My client who's very sincere and takes most things at very face value, he called HR. He's like, I'm worried about the new hire.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:He said he's one day closer to death. Can you make him a psych referral? And it's, like, it's so sweet. Right? And so this this guy was like, well, I didn't know.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:I mean, I'm not suicidal. Everything's fine. You know? But they invited me to be a part of this debrief, and I'm like, so here's how this came across to this guy. So in the future, you might say something like, I'm having a tough day or, like, you know, things are hard, but I'm I'm doing okay.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Like, you don't owe him that, but it makes everybody's life easier if you can just be very intentional with what you say. And to this guy's great credit, he he took it with grace. He took it with humility. He found the humor in it. He's like, man, I gotta be careful in what I say.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:I was like, it that's also a good lesson here. Yeah. And that just like, all those little idioms, all those little shortcuts we use with our language, it's built by the monoculture. The monoculture is a neurotypical culture. So I might say to one of my more concrete employees, like, I need to talk to you later.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:Everything's fine. I'm talking to you about your sales goals. I'm gonna use that extra language, what we call meta communication, to build the structure around that in a way that sort of limits the emotional flailing that may occur.
Mike Coffey:Occur. Doctor Matthew Zakreski is author of The Neurodiversity Playbook, How Neurodivergent People Can Crack the Code of Living in a Neurotypical World. Thanks for joining us today, Doctor. Matt.
Dr. Matt Zakreski:It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Mike Coffey:You'll find links to Matt's book and other resources in the show notes, and thank you for listening. Also, if you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review wherever you get your podcast. It helps other people find us as does sharing the episode on your favorite social media platform. Rob Upchurch is our technical producer and you can reach him at robmakespods dot com. And thank you to Imperative's marketing coordinator, Mary Anne Hernandez, who keeps the trains running on time.
Mike Coffey:And I'm the very ADHD Mike Coffey. As always, don't hesitate to reach out if I can be of service to you personally or professionally. I'll see you next week and until then, be well, do good, and keep your chin up.