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On this month’s State of the State podcast from Michigan State University’s Institute for Public Policy and Social Research (IPPSR), institute director Matt Grossmann and assistant director Arnold Weinfeld welcome Suann Hammersmith to this month’s conversation. Hammersmith is executive director of the Michigan Independent Citizens Redistricting Commission.
Show Notes
Before talking with Hammersmith, Grossmann and Weinfeld discuss the implications of loosening mask restrictions, the recent ransomware attack on the Colonial Pipeline, and the “enormous” influx of federal dollars into Michigan’s state budget. The money is very helpful to Michigan communities in many ways, but Grossmann cautions that “the spigot is going to be turned off at some point.”
Grossmann and Weinfeld also talk about the removal of Liz Cheney from her leadership role in the Republican party in Congress. Grossman explains why he thinks the move was less about Donald Trump and more about how people just don’t like public internal squabbling in political parties.
Hammersmith joins the conversation to discuss the progress of the redistricting commission. She and Grossmann emphasize that the maps must reflect communities of interest and the diversity of the state.
“Communities of interest are identified in our Constitution as either cultural or historical groups or groups with shared economic interests, but they’re not limited to those groups,” says Hammersmith. “We’re listening. And we’re asking those communities to come forward and talk to us. Obviously as 13 independent people on the commission we can’t know everybody in the state and know where those communities are. They will self-identify, and we’re looking forward to learning more about our state and learning about people who feel that they’re better impacted when they’re voting together as a group and a community of interest.
“There are many ways to engage with the commission, and we want to hear from the citizens of Michigan.”
MSU Today airs Sunday mornings at 9:00 on 105.1 FM and AM 870 and streams at WKAR.org. Find “MSU Today with Russ White” on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your shows.
Creators & Guests
What is MSU Today with Russ White?
MSU Today is a lively look at Michigan State University-related people, places, events and attitudes put into focus by Russ White. The show airs Saturdays at 5 P.M. and Sundays at 5 A.M. on 102.3 FM and AM 870 WKAR, and 8 P.M. on AM 760 WJR.
Unknown Speaker 0:00
Welcome to state of the state, the monthly roundup of policy and research for the state of Michigan brought to you by the Institute of Public Policy and Social Research at Michigan State University. And our friends here at WK our studios. I'm Arnaud weinfeld, Associate Director of the Institute. And I'm joined by Institute director, Dr. Matt Grossman. Later on our guests will be suanne Hammersmith, Executive Director of Michigan's Independent Redistricting Commission to discuss the work of the Commission. Well, Matt, yesterday's announcement by the CDC has sent a lot of different groups and people scurrying, um, a lot of relief, of course that we can now wear or not have to wear our maps outside. But what what do you think this is going to do? I mean, the feds have said that it's still up to state and local jurisdictions as well. Seems to put a lot more pressure now on those on those entities to follow CDC guidelines.
Unknown Speaker 1:05
Yes, there were some immediate responses, and we're still responding to the previous CDC guidance about the no masks needed outside. And it both East Lansing and the university actually just complied with that or went along with that this week. So it may take a little while. But it certainly is filtering down and signs of a return to normalcy. I am part of a pattern of policymakers trying to provide incentives for people to get vaccinated seeing everything from free beer to entering a lottery in Ohio, if you get vaccinated a million dollars. So awesome incentives to onboard
Unknown Speaker 1:50
almost make me want to go down to Ohio and get more shots. But Charlie's not here to talk about implications on the economy. But given it's summertime, given where loosening needs restrictions, are we going to see something of a social boom and a lift to the economy over the summer now.
Unknown Speaker 2:10
Well, we I'm not a prognosticator, but I can tell you what's already happening, which is that we saw a large increase in economic activity and our first signs of inflation this month, and that's already provoking some political and policy responses. And so the debate could change from just where we were at the beginning of the year, with all the talk of need of stimulus.
Unknown Speaker 2:38
And of course, ransomware attacks are major pieces of infrastructure like the colonial pipeline, don't don't help us move the situation either.
Unknown Speaker 2:49
The car industry is also having to respond to the ship shortages and actually produced an increase in used car prices. That was the biggest sign of an inflation, it might be temporary. But yeah, the auto industry is also having supply issues.
Unknown Speaker 3:09
Well, the fact of the matter is, is that we've was announced this week, guidance from the Federal Department of Treasury, on use of the American rescue plan Act funding. Michigan's actually getting more money than they thought something just over $6 billion to the state and a little over 4 billion directly to local governments. We had a forum last week at EPA legislative staff training, where we invited the directors of the House and Senate fiscal agency as well as we had the deputy director of our Department of Management budget, what they have to say about the budget and what they're seeing,
Unknown Speaker 3:47
they said there's a lot of new money coming in. It is a substantial increase in the state budget over the next couple of years, you know, on huge portions of general fund that are going to be coming from the federal government. And we're still spending the dollars from the previous COVID relief bills. So the budget situation is looking a whole lot better. But this is temporary money. And so they were definitely cautious about the sustainability of these kinds of desires to spend the money. They also noted that infrastructure funding may be coming down the road and that policymakers wanted to spend this chunk on infrastructure. But but might have to wait for additional dollars. But the broad pattern is definitely a lot of money is going to come into the state. We This is one way in which we benefit from a higher than average unemployment rate and some other economic indicators. So Michigan is getting more money. And of course this week on Tuesday we'll have a forum on the money going to local governments which we talked about on the podcast, which is also an enormous amount of money. And is going disproportionately to the hardest hit cities. So this big redistributive debate that we normally have in in politics is taking place the democrats really do send more money to poor areas and spend more money through government spending.
Unknown Speaker 5:20
I've been in discussions with representatives from the statewide local government associations noted forum on Tuesday, we'll have with us, Dr. Eric score Soni, who runs Michigan State University's local government finance and Policy Center. And it the message from the organizations and many right now is to take it slow playing out, especially at the local government level, how you want to use this money, it is one time money, as you noted, so even as people are banging on the local or state officials door saying you've got all this money, you know, why don't you spend it, it's going to make a difference for sure, over the next couple of years. But there still seem to be some concerns with the long term health of the state budget or they're not
Unknown Speaker 6:12
well unjustified concerns, because we've gone through this story before the state budget went up in 2009, and 2010, not just in Michigan, all over in response to the federal stimulus dollars, and then crashed two years after the rest of the economy crashed, because that's when the stimulus funding ran out. So people are conscious of that. But, you know, even the most left pro government side of the spectrum is, is calling this funding for state and local governments enormous. So it does seem to be a far different scale. And we've seen before,
Unknown Speaker 6:49
no question trend transformational is once in a generation or terms that people are using. And then regarding infrastructure, of course, some of the current funds can be used for sewer and water infrastructure. I've heard the locals in particular talk about that in broadband expansion. So there is there is a piece of this, that can certainly be used for for those for those means, you know, it seems to me too, that given given the amount of funding, that that's coming our way, and we just kind of touched on this one time funding, you just noted that after the last stimulus that, you know, after a couple of years, you know, reality setback in the platform of problems with Michigan still remains our reliance on manufacturing, the inability of local communities to raise funding at the local level, the number of tax revenue restrictions that are here in the state. So you know, I think you're correct that after the next few years, we're still without a really strong overhaul of our economy, and new residents as well. And I know that that's something that we'll be talking about here in a little bit with to Ann as well. Michigan is going to find itself probably in the next few years in the same state of affairs and the car industry is is turning over to IE V's are becoming going to become more prevalent. The manufacturers here in America are making a commitment to producing electric vehicle down the road, although China is way ahead of everybody as as usual in that in that effort. What do you see as a, you know, policy, political implications moving forward? You know, you noted that it's possible we might see another large tranche of money in infrastructure and the President is also announced the family plan, the family jobs plan to address issues like child care. You just noted that when democrats are in office, a lot more money gets spent, gets spent out we're given the very close split in Congress. I know you said you're not a prognosticator. But what do you think the chances are, we'll see two more large packages of funding.
Unknown Speaker 9:16
I'm happy to prognosticate on policy and politics. I just leave the economic trajectory I see to Charlie because one of the they say economists have successfully called the last three out of I don't know what it is the last 12 out of three recessions or something like that. So yes. The the basic message is going to be that the spigot is going to be cut off at some point. You know that the opening year of a presidential administration is usually the biggest one, policy wise. There's no guarantee that we're getting a whole lot more money. We have spent a big tranche in the first COVID relief bill. There's two large proposals. We'll get something out of that. But as soon as we get around to midterm election year, with the republicans favor to regain control of the House, we should not expect that funding to continue forever Forever. That said, we saw still are seeing policymaking in Biden has made politics boring again, so no one's paying that much attention. But we actually are potentially about to double the National Science Foundation, for example, but we're calling it an anti China bill about manufacturing workers. So that's, that's pretty typical of framing. But Gary Peters actually just got an additional couple billion dollars into that bill, which is going through the Senate floor, to be directed toward auto industry efforts. So we should see some additional policy, but but the money at some point is going to be cut off, and we'll be moving in a different political direction. Michigan, of course, just saw that. We did gain population, in contrast to the previous census, but we gained population at the fourth, I think, slowest rate across the the US states. So we still have the same structural issues that we have had. And they they aren't being solved by by this one time money. Well, you
Unknown Speaker 11:21
just noted that President Biden might be making politics boring, certainly, though. National republicans are not making it boring. And you just mentioned the midterm elections in Congress, the House Republican Conference decided to remove their number three, leader Liz Cheney for not sticking to the proper messaging. So it would seem that certainly congressional Republicans are already gearing up for the midterm elections and making sure everyone's toeing the line. What do you make of the woods cheney piece?
Unknown Speaker 11:59
Yes, well, clearly, we'll start we're still having the debates about Trump well into the Biden administration and the Republican Party, and you really can't openly run against Trump in the in the Republican Party, and you can't disrupt the party message, as as Liz Cheney has been doing over the last couple months. I I'm a little bit less on the side of that this somehow means that that Trump is still in control, I think it means that the party doesn't like to have open squabbling, be the message that comes out of their retreat. There's also an interesting ideological dimension, Liz Cheney is actually right in the middle of the Republican caucus ideologically, whereas Elise stefanik, who's likely to replace her is actually more liberal than 98% of House Republicans. So it's actually not a move rightward, like we traditionally see in these House leadership elections. If anything, it's actually sort of a move to the center.
Unknown Speaker 13:01
So is it fair to say that the cult of personality, as compared to the cult of ideology still is prevalent within the Republican Party?
Unknown Speaker 13:11
I think it's just fair to say that people just don't like internal squabbling to dominate the headlines in a political party. I yes, it certainly can be interpreted as you know, they're they're still behind Trump. But you know, this is the same group that that voted all that 60 people to retain Liz Cheney, just a couple of months ago. So I think since we had the before and after, and the policy positions really didn't change that this really was about her public messaging and her, you know, continuing public squabbling with Trump.
Unknown Speaker 13:44
Well, speaking of midterm elections as we enter the 2022 election cycle, states are preparing to revise their congressional districts and their state legislative districts. Every 10 years after the census states go through the process here in Michigan, we approved the ballot proposal, last cycle to set up an independent redistricting commission as a few other states have done. And with that, I'd like to introduce our guests, Sue and Hammersmith. suanne was appointed executive director of Michigan's Independent Redistricting Commission. Last year. As I noted, this is the body approved by voters to set forth new new legislative districts for state and federal office. Previously swam was CEO of the runaway Community Foundation. Welcome, Suzanne. Suzanne. Thank you. I'm happy to be here today. Why don't you take a few minutes to discuss the work of the commission as you've organized and moving forward.
Unknown Speaker 14:49
While the Commission's started with their first meeting in September, they have undergone quite a bit of continuing education. You think Dr. Grossman and others who helped in a variety of ways with educating the commission about the process that they will undertake. We've done a lot of outreach to cities, townships and counties, engaged over 30 statewide organizations, so groups such as the League of Women Voters, the n double A CP, the Michigan nonprofit association, to be involved in the work of redistricting and helping to get awareness and the word out to people that they can engage in the process. So we're really excited about going on the road. We started this week with public hearings in Jackson and Kalamazoo. And we'll have seven more weeks of public hearings throughout the state of Michigan, to listen to the people and what they want to tell us about the districts that would best represent them.
Unknown Speaker 15:53
Very important part of the process, I did see the list and you do have numerous public hearings moving across the state and Matt suanne noted that experts such as yourself are assisting with the work of the Commission. What do you see as the, you know, key issues the commission needs to work on? And how are they going to apply all of the criteria that's in front of them?
Unknown Speaker 16:23
Well, the Constitution does give them a long list of criteria for the maps. So we're not to that process, to that part of the process yet. But they're already thinking about them. The big one that's high on the list is that the maps have to reflect communities of interest and the diversity of the state. And so one thing that people will be submitting is, their ideas about what communities of interest they they live in, or what they should look like, across the state, the main piece I've been trying to help with is just the diversity of these criteria, they also have to not provide an advantage to a political party, they also have to reflect a local boundaries and be compact to be contiguous. And, of course, at the very top comply with the Voting Rights Act. And all of those are a lot more complicated than then it might sound to draw squares on a map. So we've been kind of taking taking them through that process. So what are you hearing so far about? Are people submitting ideas about communities of interest? Are they submitting maps yet? Are we just getting kind of broader comments from the public?
Unknown Speaker 17:39
We have received great comments from the public about the districts that they would like to be in. But the public comment portal also launched about a week ago. And we have lots of maps drawn in that portal that have been submitted. So it's really exciting to start to see the word coming together.
Unknown Speaker 18:01
And so what can citizens do? They just go to the Independent Redistricting Commission website, and then what are they able to do
Unknown Speaker 18:09
there? So if they go to michigan.gov, forward slash m ICRC. They can go right into the public comment portal from there, and they can submit comments on that. They can draw a map for the whole state, they can draw their community of interest. And they can also comment on other maps that have been drawn. So there's lots of opportunity there. And we're really excited that that tool is available to us to collect all this data.
Unknown Speaker 18:40
And then there's also these in person public hearings. So what's what's happening at those and how are our citizens submitting their their comments there.
Unknown Speaker 18:51
So 16 public hearings throughout the state of Michigan. We have been to Jackson and Kalamazoo this week. Next week, we're going up to the up to Marquette, and then back to Gaillard. And we'll be throughout the state over the next several weeks. So the the public hearings are on Tuesdays and Thursdays, the list is on the website all start at 6pm. And we encourage people to get there around five. And we also take virtual comments that those meetings so if somebody can't get to a public hearing, it's too far of a drive or they just the timing doesn't work for them and their area. They can call in and give public comment also through the zoom meeting or via phone. So there's many, many ways to engage and we just want to hear from the citizens of Michigan.
Unknown Speaker 19:41
Matt, you mentioned the census. In a previous comment. Can you talk for a minute about how the census process is impacting this process?
Unknown Speaker 19:51
Well, so of course the this sort of occasion for doing the redistricting is that we get new data on where people live in mission. Again in across the country, we the commission is drawing three sets of districts, the US congressional districts, the State House districts in the state senate districts, the number of state house and senate districts will stay the same, but the congressional districts will be down by one district. But all of the districts will change as a result of the new information that we get, which which will be a little bit late coming, but will tell us where people live and the the fundamental criteria, that criterion that comes in very first is equal population. And so that means that if we have growing parts of the state, like we do up around Traverse City, and on the west side of the state, that that those areas are going to, you know, generate more districts overall, than some of the areas that are losing population.
Unknown Speaker 20:51
Right. Right. And you mentioned that the some of the census, some of those census figures are going to be coming in late now, the Commission has a deadline does not is it November 1, and how does that match up with one we'll be getting the census for you.
Unknown Speaker 21:05
So we anticipate getting the full census data by September 30. The Constitution says that our maps have to be submitted by November 1, with a 45 previous days of public comment. So that puts us back to around September 17, that does create somewhat of an issue and we don't have the final census data until projected to be after September 30. So we have filed for relief of up to 72 days from the Michigan Supreme Court in collaboration with the Michigan Department of State and bureau of elections. So we we are working together to try to get some days of relief and and help to make the process the best it can be because obviously you cannot do this work without the census data.
Unknown Speaker 21:56
Right. Right. So you have filed for head, you've basically filed to get more time once the census data are released. That is correct. We have filed for up to an additional 72 days.
Unknown Speaker 22:10
I'm Russian on the other side is of course that candidates are going to start running for office. So there's there's also has to be finished by the time that that people would be able to still file for those for those races.
Unknown Speaker 22:23
Yeah, certainly I think filing deadlines are in the spring of 2022. So Matt, do you have any comment about other groups that are seem to be forming as well to? I don't know. I hate to use this term fact check the process. I saw Tony, I missed your daughter's phone formed a group on his own regarding the redistricting? How do you see since your prognosticate on politics and policy? How do you see at the end of the day when the Commission's work is done? We're not going to just gonna wash our hands and move on. Are we I mean, do you expect various communities of interest, whether they be political or social or cultural, to have a few words about what they see in those?
Unknown Speaker 23:17
Well, as you know, we live in the most litigious country in the world. And the Commission has been told from the very beginning, that they will be sued. And that's a normal part of the process. They they will receive a lot of input from outside both before and after. And so they're they're prepared for that. Obviously, even the the creation of the commission was was subject to legal oversight and contestation as well. So they're they're no stranger to those issues. But that's why we they've hired legal counsel and an additional one for voting rights that consideration. So I think they'll they'll be ready for that. But yes, there'll be a lot of a lot of input. But it's Sue, I guess. So citizens will have an opportunity to comment after the proposed maps are drawn as well. Right. So what why should they give their comments now, I guess rather than or in addition to waiting to see what's what's drawn?
Unknown Speaker 24:18
Well, in an ideal world, we'd like to get it right the first time. So as much input as we can get over the next few weeks before the maps are drawn. Obviously, the Constitution says that we cannot draw the first line until after the public hearings. So the public hearings are slated to go through July 1. And then after that time, we will start the commission will start to draw maps with some of the data that is available to them. They will also have the legacy data that comes out which is on tabulated in mid August to work with. So when the final census data does come out, hopefully by September 30, then They should be ready to put the final touches on the maps and do the best job that they can to get them right the first time, though, with the communities of interest identified with the voices of the citizens taken into consideration, and then we'll go back on the road, though again for another eight rounds of public hearings and 45 days of public comment after the maps are drawn.
Unknown Speaker 25:28
And the one of the reasons that citizens Commission's have had a good record in the courts is because process does does matter. That is in the previous process, there was a lot happening behind the scenes and so there was fight over over the maps and not a lot of potential to defend them on what on what criteria they gained, but Commission's are able to show that they went through this this public process. And that they kind of considered these these things from from the beginning. So where are we on the on the first part on the Voting Rights Act considerations? Have we identified some someone to help with that with that? And have we done any analyses of groups that that might be covered under that?
Unknown Speaker 26:15
We do. In fact, we have our first meeting with our voting rights act legal counsel on Monday. So we're excited that federal compliance consulting and Bruce Adelson, who's a national expert, I think, I think he's probably the best we could have found for the commission. So he will guide that work. We also have a racially polarized analyst that will be working with us, Dr. Lisa Handley. So we do have those things in place. And we're ready to get down to the real work.
Unknown Speaker 26:54
And one of the the main pieces that we've tried to cover in the education, but I don't know how far we've gotten is this communities of interest idea. So any, yeah, just give people a sense of what that what that might mean and how the Commission has been thinking about it, and how citizens have been thinking about it.
Unknown Speaker 27:11
So communities of interest are identified in our Constitution as either cultural or historical groups or groups with shared economic interest, but they're not limited to those groups. So we're listening. We're asking for those communities to come forth and talk to us. We, we obviously as 13 independent people on the commission can't know everybody everywhere in the state and know where those communities are. So they will self identify. And we're looking forward to learning about more about our state and learning about people who feel that they are most better are better impacted when they're voting together as a group as a community of interest. Well, Sue, I want to thank you and the commission for your work. Much like Michigan's infrastructure, there's been a number of potholes that you've had to face along the way. And I have no doubt that the road will continue to be bumpy. But this commission is doing great work. Really appreciate how you reached out to experts like Matt and others to make sure that as you dive into these issues, you've got the best information available to you. So again, thank you and the commission for your work. And we'll continue to be watching, of course, and assisting where we can. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome, Matt, any anything else for today?
Unknown Speaker 28:41
We still encourage people to go and get vaccinated, no lottery in Michigan, but it's going to be better for your health and the health of those around you
Unknown Speaker 28:49
get vaccinated and as a suanne noted, pay attention to these public hearings on the redistricting commission. And if you're able, you should join at least to listen to the process. Do you understand how it's taking place?
Unknown Speaker 29:05
submit those maps. We have had some state legislative staffers do it. We had individuals do we have had students do it. It's it's actually fun to try to draw your own community. So I gave it a shot.
Unknown Speaker 29:19
And I know that you've engaged your students as well, Matt, so as well as your staff, so we've had an opportunity as well appreciate that. Well, thank you, Suzanne, and thanks again, Matt, for co hosting this session of state to state. My thanks again to Russ white and the folks at Wk AR for their support of this program. Join us again next month on state of the state
Transcribed by https://otter.ai