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The GGJ Podcast brings the spirit of Global Game Jam to your headphones, with people from around the world sharing how they found their way into game development. Each week, Susan Gold talks with developers, studio founders, and festival organizers about the twists, risks, and side doors that shaped their paths and communities. You will hear honest stories about creativity, collaboration, failure, and the messy, beautiful reality of making games.
GGJPodcastSalaarKohari
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Intro
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[00:00:00] Susan Gold: This is the GGJ Podcast, a show about the games industry, the people who make them, and the communities that grow up around them. I'm Susan Gold, a game education trailblazer and one of the founders of the Global Game Jam. Each week, we will be sitting down with a new guest, highlighting their own path and journey.
[00:00:26] This is a space for honest conversation from makers about creativity, collaboration, failure, and the messy, the beautiful reality of making games. So whether you're a young dev or seasoned, an educator, a student, or someone who just loves games and the people behind them, welcome to the GGJ Podcast. Take a breath, settle in, and let's hear directly from the makers themselves.
[00:00:49] Shirley McPhaul: This episode is made possible in partnership with the Global Game Jam, the world's largest game creation event, bringing together creators from around the globe. A big thank you as well to the Global Game Jam's headline [00:01:00] sponsors, Epic Games, Games for Change, and Xsolla, for helping make this creative community a reality.
[00:01:06] To learn more and to get involved in the upcoming jams, visit globalgamejam.org.
[00:01:13] This episode is brought to you in part through the support of the University of Miami School of Communication and the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation. Their commitment to storytelling, media innovation, and community engagement help make conversations like these possible.
[00:01:30] This podcast is proudly supported by the PlayStation Hero Project, championing and empowering emerging developer talent across the globe. Discover new heroes at playstation.com China, India, and MENA Hero Project pages. Find the links in the show notes in the description down below
Meet Salaar Kohari
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[00:01:53] Susan Gold: Today on the show, I'm honored to welcome Salar Kohari. Salar, co-founder of Cage Studios, an [00:02:00] independent game developer who has spent the last several years building something quite radical: games that are fast, colorful, and deeply intentional, and they reach over 200,000 players. He came up the hard way.
[00:02:14] After sending nearly 80 applications to land a single interview, he made it into Sony Santa Monica Studio, one of the most prestigious development houses in the world, where he eventually spent five years shipping games. He went from intern to hire doing something almost no intern dares: book a meeting with the game director of the studio.
[00:02:37] That boldness and that mentorship he found there shaped the developer he became. Then he walked away from it all and bet on himself. What makes Salar's story compelling isn't just the courage it took to go indie, it's the worldview he brings to the work. He grew up across Amsterdam, Chicago, Cairo, Philadelphia, and Los Angeles.
[00:02:58] He has roots in [00:03:00] Pakistan and a passport full of more than 30 countries. That's a global upbringing, including living through the Egypt's Jasmine Revolution. He shows up in everything he makes. He designs games that push back against toxicity at the mechanical level and that weave an anti-capitalist theme without apology, and that interactivity is not just a feature, but the whole point.
[00:03:26] Salar, thank you so much for joining me today
[00:03:30] Salaar Kohari: thank you, Susan. I'm so happy to be here. That was a very kind intro, and I'm really excited to talk about the journey
[00:03:36] Susan Gold: I'm so glad. Let's start really early. You started making games when you were eight years old. Most kids that age if at all, they're playing them, They're not making them. What flipped that switch for you? And do you think that instinct taught you something that you were just ready to do, or were you born with that curiosity?
[00:03:58] I think all kids have the instinct [00:04:00] to wanna be creative and wanna play and make things. kids love playing with Legos or in sandboxes. And, I was just lucky enough to be exposed to the idea that game development was even possible. Back then there was a Flash game engine and there-- people were making Flash games in their browsers, and that was a really easy all-inclusive engine where you can draw art like it's paint basically, and then animate the things and add some code, and you have a game all in one system.
[00:04:25] but I don't think it's something that I was born with. I don't think anybody's really born with much.
A Supporting Family
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[00:04:30] Susan Gold: But I think you had something that a lot of people might be jealous of is that a family that kind of seeded a lot of that curiosity. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that?
[00:04:43] Yeah, definitely. I think, my dad was the one who got me my first book that was Beginning Flash Game Programming for Dummies, which I've heard some other people started out with that same book. But, I think my family was always supportive of me doing that as a hobby, and it was more productive in their eyes than [00:05:00] even playing games.
[00:05:00] So they definitely encouraged me, and I wasn't spending any money on, any of this stuff either. but I think that I'm very blessed to have, this family that was really supportive of me. and even to this day, like my sister-- I got my sister into game development through my studio, and then she went on to work on her own AAA games.
[00:05:16] but I think that people, when they're younger or older, they can find those mentorships or those,people that can inspire them even outside of their family, if that's not where it comes from. But sometimes you have to seek that out a little bit more intentionally, and I was lucky that I had that right under my own home.
[00:05:32] At eight years old, what were you making?
[00:05:35] I would make different Flash games on Newgrounds. I made like an open world RPG, which was like a stick figure going around to different like box houses and talking to people and, fighting gangsters
[00:05:46] One of my earliest games was Stickman Goes on a Diet, you know?Yep.
[00:05:52] it was always Stickman. think I played a game Stickman Death, you know, where you-- Stickman, yeah. Those were great Flash
[00:05:59] Yeah, a [00:06:00] lot of stick, sick people games for sure. I made like a racing game. I made a clicker game. I made a few different one. I made like a fighting game. yeah
Growing-up Around the World
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[00:06:09] Susan Gold: Now, you grew up everywhere. A- and I don't mean just, you were in the MENA region, you were in the US, you were in Europe. That's not a childhood, that's a world tour. How did moving that much shape how you see stories, people, and ultimately games?
[00:06:29] Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. I definitely have moved around a lot. Almost every five to 10 years I would move to a new country, a new continent. I think that one thing that it taught me was when I was meeting people, it helped me like ask the right questions to get to know somebody who's very different from me.
[00:06:45] And what I've realized, like meeting so many people in so many places, is that at-- no matter who you are, everyone that I talk to has something that I can relate to, and also something that's very unique about them that I don't relate to. And I feel like uncovering those two things in an initial conversation [00:07:00] helps me really empathize and figure out like what our dynamic is and what a relationship could be.
[00:07:04] and besides that, like it, it gives its pros and cons because like it's great that I get to be exposed to a lot of different cultures and see a lot of the world and be exposed to different history, different types of education. and I think that was really helpful. But at the same time, I've had to say goodbye a lot more than most people do.
[00:07:21] A lot of people, they grow up with the same community and the same friends their whole lives, and I didn't really have that. I don't think I've had a single friend that I've been friends with that was there from my childhood up until now. I mean, I have friends, but like some of them I'll I'll fall in and out of contact with, and it's-- I don't have that lifelong like bond except with my family, which again brings m- me even closer with my family that we had to go through that together.
[00:07:43] No, a-and in this day and age, especially with people able to work from anywhere, it's hard to, you know, once upon a time you had to be in a specific place in order to work in our industry.the [00:08:00] nice thing is that your worldview also now affects a lot of the kinds of games that you make, and I really think that's very important, having had that background of experiencing a cultural revolution, of experiencing, other people that have not had the same opportunities you had.
[00:08:21] it wasn't as if you saw the easiest part of the world, You were in a lot of different places. Now mind you, Chicago wasn't that hard, but
[00:08:31] Yeah, I definitely, feel like I'm inspired by all the stories. And even just, I think living outside of the US, a lot of people who like spend their entire lives in the US and like US education, they have a narrower view of history and world cultures and stuff.
[00:08:45] Like for example, when I went to high school in Egypt, We had geography tests where we had to learn a little bit about every single country in the world. And so when the World Cup is on and there's Curaçao or Côte d'Ivoire is on and no one has heard of it, it's "Oh, I actually know a little bit about that country."
[00:08:59] and I think [00:09:00] that it really opens your eyes to how big the world is and how many different types of people and perspectives there are out there. And then translating that into my games, I love to have different representation of different types of cultures and backgrounds, as well as give something that anyone can relate to.
[00:09:15] the figuring out the stories that are shared across cultures, as well as the ones that are unique to certain cultures and telling a mix of both.
Breaking into the Industry
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[00:09:24] Susan Gold: you also-- I know you don't wanna toot your own horn, so to speak, but you're a pretty smart kid, and you got through college pretty quickly. You did a lot in school, and yet when you were looking for a job, you mentioned you sent about 80 applications and got one interview.
[00:09:46] What was going through your mind during that stretch? And was there ever a moment where you thought, yeah, I'm not doing this"?
[00:09:55] I never really imagined that I would be doing it to begin with. it was just realizing that, [00:10:00] oh, there's a game industry out there and, I should try to shoot my shot and apply for different things. So I was always making games, on my own, and I've been doing that since I was a kid, and I would keep doing that.
[00:10:11] Even when I was doing internships in in New York City in like finance and stuff, I would still be coming home and working on my game. So it was never like my goal was to join the game industry. It was just like, I like making games. Maybe I could get a job there since that's a thing, but otherwise whatever, like kind of thing.
[00:10:25] it wasn't like I was, trying really hard to get a job in the industry. And had I known how awesome it is, then maybe I would've even tried even harder. But I think, yeah, I put in a lot of work into just the games that I created, and I let that kind of speak for itself rather than trying to tailor myself and my personality to where it's getting a job, which, you know.
[00:10:43] That was also, like a while ago, so I don't know if-- The climates might have changed since then. but yeah. and I think, it wasn't all smooth sailing for me at the same time because college was actually really tough for me. That was like, I went through like mental health issue struggles and all that kind of stuff in college.
[00:10:58] And, once I made it out to [00:11:00] LA, I feel like my life definitely got easier. so I feel like applying for the game studios wasn't really in the forefront of this is my goal. It was more like, I just wanna be happy and I just wanna-- I just-- Making games helps me become happy, and that was really all there was to it back then.
[00:11:14] I had a simpler mindset.
[00:11:16] A simpler mindset and less responsibility.
[00:11:19] Exactly.
A Formal Education in Games?
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[00:11:20] Susan Gold: Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, you said that,your education was hard, but you also did not go to school for game design per se. You say that many of those dedicated game programs are actually a trap, and especially ones taught by people who've never shipped a game.
[00:11:39] That's a pretty provocative take. Where does it come from? And does it worry that may alienate opportunities or people if, you say things like that? And what happens if people that have gone that route? do you, "Eh, you wasted your money." Are you... What do you [00:12:00] think-
[00:12:00] I think the, in general, like education in the US has some-- leaves some things to be desired. It's very capitalistic and a lot about making money. That said, I have a lot of respect for educators because they're inspiring and teaching so many people many important skills. it's just you get out what you put into it a little bit of you can build a network, you can get good guidance where you have the internet in front of you with all the information, but it's really hard to know what to look for and what to-- you're supposed to be doing.
[00:12:28] it's just that at the same time, a college degree on its own is not really enough for most industries, in fact. you've gotta put in some initiative and figure out, think outside the box, either build-- if that's building your network or making your own games or whatever you gotta do to set yourself up for success.
[00:12:43] whereas the goal for a college is like to teach you by the textbook and you-- oftentimes it's already like five, 10 years outdated to what the industry might be looking at. so whether or not people have or have not worked in the industry, in-- who are teaching people, I think it just-- you have to be-- take it with a grain of salt what you're getting yourself [00:13:00] into and, try to figure out how you can set yourself up for success in the future and how things might be changing.
[00:13:07] I agree in many respects because I think that education is always what you make of it because, n- nobody's gonna make you learn things. You have to really be proactive. But I think that one of the things I see that is a through line for you and for many people in your age demographic is that y- because you have access to all these tools, like we didn't have them.
[00:13:33] I-- When I created the game curriculum, n- yeah, getting someone from the industry to teach it was really difficult. and, they actually had jobs where they were working 20-hour days. Asking them to come in to teach was impossible. But at the same time, there was enough guidance to get students to a place where they can learn how to design and make games, learn the tools, [00:14:00] that kind of thing.
[00:14:01] Now there's so much content out there. It just wasn't available before. But you're right, it needs to be curated because you could have some bozo telling you a whole bunch of crap about game design that doesn't really apply. And,it might be vintage, like old PC stuff.
[00:14:20] Yeah. I, it is just scary that because of that, the value of education is going down a bit, but the cost of education is still going up. so it's some sort of weird dynamic, like some-- that is happening right now, Yay capitalism and all that. But, there is still value to it. I think that, even for my own career,going to a good school and all helped me find those career paths as well.
[00:14:42] Like I, I saw some PlayStation people at the career fair, and that told me that was a thing I could do, where I wouldn't have otherwise maybe even applied
[00:14:50] Are you trying to say you could be in finance right now?
[00:14:52] I could be in finance, but I would still be making games.
[00:14:56] that's good to know. All right.
Interactivity & Immersion
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[00:14:58] Susan Gold: Let's define this [00:15:00] interactivity thing that you really talk about in your work. It's not just the story, it's not just the graphics, it's not just the mechanics. Can you break down for someone who plays games but has never thought about why they feel immersed, why does interactivity actually do to the human brain?
[00:15:19] Yeah. So,the history of play goes back to as long as human history has been alive. like children, that's how they learn primarily. And then even in adulthood, it's been proven through like psychology studies that like project-based and learning and play and experimentation actually helps people learn and remember things better.
[00:15:37] So there is something fundamental about us seeking out play and us learning and enjoying it. And besides that, the thing that sets us apart from other species is our storytelling and our imaginations, because so- as far as we know, we're the only ones with as complex imaginations to be able to consider and create these scenarios that, again, we can learn from that have never even happened to anybody.
[00:15:57] and those things combined, it's if you th- [00:16:00] take TV shows and movies, what I'll-- The comparison I like to make is that the things that separate like movies from plays is the cinematography, the camera. you have a directed camera, you can control the shots. And the thing that separates games from movies is the interactivity.
[00:16:13] You have, something that you can interact with and affect what's happening on the screen that you're looking at. And that level of, extra immersion, it satisfies all the things that a movie satisfies, plus the need for play and the s- the learning and the satisfaction that goes with that. And that is really-- it gets you so immersed.
[00:16:30] And I see a lot of people who either can't sit through a movie or like they'll be on their phone while they're watching Netflix or whatever while you're eating food. But when you're in a game, you can really get immersed so much deeper and have even more empathy because of that interactivity. You can have more empathy with the characters and the stories that you're experiencing.
[00:16:47] Would you call that flow?
[00:16:50] Yeah, flow state, the magic circle, there's a few different names for it, I think.
[00:16:54] Yeah. It definitely is when, it almost feels like [00:17:00] effortlessness. That's really what I really put it down to,
[00:17:04] Exactly. Getting locked in, as they say these days.
[00:17:07] Yeah. And it's so hard to create that for people. I don't think people realize how much we put into creating those worlds and environments. And, and as a maker, you get to do that.
Boldness
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[00:17:22] Susan Gold: one of the things that I found very interesting about your story was that you had what I call gumption, chutzpah, a little cootsie. you had something that most people, I don't wanna say too shy, but they are shy, right? And they're afraid to approach people of power.
[00:17:45] And when you started at Santa Monica, you did something that no other intern had ever done. You just cold booked a meeting with the game director. What made you bold enough to feel like you could do that? And did anyone tell [00:18:00] you that you couldn't?
Sponsor: PlayStation Hero Project
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[00:18:02] Shirley McPhaul: And now let's take a moment to thank the sponsor for this episode, the PlayStation Hero Project, an incubator program founded by Sony Interactive Entertainment focused on identifying and supporting emerging developer talent from India, China, and the MENA regions. You can be a hero too if your game was made in one of these regions.
[00:18:24] Check out the games getting the support, like Suri: The Seventh Note, a rhythm action platformer set on the mysterious island of Suri, where music is its lifeblood. In the game, players are thrown into the role of Ajira, a brave girl racing against time to save her mother from a dark, bewildering sickness.
[00:18:44] Her only hope lies in finding a magical fruit that blooms deep within the heart of the island, torn apart by a mysterious corrupting rhythm, a dark force that has taken hold, warping its melodies into something sinister. To overcome it, Ajira must [00:19:00] learn to master the rhythm, channel its power, and fight back through a world that shifts and reacts to every beat.
[00:19:08] Suri: The Seventh Note is available for wishlist on Steam. For more information on the PlayStation Hero Project and the teams they support, go to playstation.com China, India, or MENA Hero Project pages. Find the links in the show notes and in the description down below. And now back to the show.
Boldness
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[00:19:29] Salaar Kohari: that's a good question. I don't know how, people feel like they can't to begin with. I feel like as a kid, you all automatically have a lot of confidence and,when you're a kid, you're not, looking at an adult and being like, "Oh, there's some- someone I need to, be respecting," unless, they're your parents maybe.
[00:19:44] But you're not gonna see a random adult, even if they're an actor, and, start, s- swooning over them when you're a little kid. And I guess it's something that people learn over time that like, "Oh, these people are very famous," and something. but I don't know. I never really felt the separation between, people of different levels [00:20:00] or like that, and maybe that's something that, hap- like I learned from living abroad maybe, and seeing different, socioeconomic groups or, whatever influencers.
[00:20:09] everyone's just a human being with their own needs and wants, and even the scale of happiness that people ach- can achieve is, the same with everyone, whether,you're rich or poor or struggling or doing well. you still experience a similar range of emotions of sadness to happiness, and everyone has their things that they're going through.
[00:20:24] Everyone has their own different paths that they take. So I was never really intimidated by, that sort of thing. and th- that is to say that, like, when I did meet with the game director, that wasn't, a life-changing meeting that everybody should be going and booking meetings with their game directors.
[00:20:38] I just,did it 'cause I was like, "Oh, that would be, like, cool and, I'm here. I wanna take advantage of the opportunity." the-- honestly, the biggest thing that he taught me was, "Look, I'm not, I'm pr- not the best person at design. I'm not the best person at programming. I'm not the best person at art.
[00:20:50] I'm not the best person at anything at this studio. if you wanna talk to those people, you should go talk to those people, and they can give you more specific advice. as a director, your job is to oversee and have a vision." And,he taught [00:21:00] me some things about having that. But if I wanted to become a better designer, a better programmer, I could talk to the lead combat designer or the lead programmer.
[00:21:06] So I actually didn't book too many meetings with him after that once I realized that I could be learning from other people as well.
[00:21:12] I think that audacity to just go and book a meeting is something that says a lot to your boldness, and I really like that. It really shows that you're just not waiting for other people to do things for you
[00:21:29] Yeah, and I like to pay it forward too, 'cause a lot of times I meet students and I can see that shyness, and I'm like, "Reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'll look at your resume or your cover letter or whatever." And like people rarely actually do that even though they need the help. And I'm always like, "Just do it.
[00:21:42] Do it. Promise me you're gonna send it over." And like at the-- it's a free resource that I'm offering, and people just are too shy or nervous or, self-doubting, to take advantage of that. And, yeah, it's something that people should really put themselves out of their comfort zone and be showing people th- what they're making, getting feedback, finding mentors.
[00:21:59] that's how you can [00:22:00] really grow faster.
Between Santa Monica & Indie
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[00:22:02] Salaar Kohari: you had a double life while you were at Santa Monica because like you said, you were always making games. Most people though come home tired, right? you were quietly building with your co-founders and yet how was it like to do both things at the same time? What was it like to carry all that?
[00:22:24] And at what point did that indie side of you start feeling less as a side project and more "Hey, this is my path. It's time to leave"?
[00:22:35] Um, yeah, having a co-founder was-- really meant so much, during that time that I was at Sony Santa Monica because, I would be doing a lot of programming and some design at, Santa Monica Studio. And when I would be working with my friend, I would be pretty much doing everything except for the programming, and I would let my friend handle most of the programming.
[00:22:53] I would help fix a bug here or there, but I was doing a lot of design work, a lot of production, a lot of marketing, [00:23:00] research and that kind of thing. And it felt so different from what I was doing at my day job that it didn't feel like I was going home and doing more of the same, and that really helped me not get burnt out and stay motivated.
[00:23:10] And, having a co-founder is like when he did something cool and showed me, then it would motivate me, and then I would do something cool. And then when he was, like, feeling low, I would be like, "Oh, look at this cool thing I made," and then it would bring him up. And it was really, a great, back and forth that, helped us synergize and grow stronger together.
[00:23:24] yeah. And that was my, friend that I met in ninth grade in Egypt, actually. we have been making games together since the very first day we met, and, that was a really great dynamic, to have and really helped me get going. And eventually,I-- we had enough success with our-- the games that we were shipping.
[00:23:39] We, we were getting hundreds of thousands of players and, I had enough, kind of financial runway. And, I also felt like my learning was starting-- my growth and my learning was starting to slow down at Santa Monica just because,it wasn't, easy, but it definitely felt like it was getting easier and a little bit more straightforward than when I s- when I joined.
[00:23:56] And I felt like if I wanted to really do something [00:24:00] game-changing, then I needed to find my own way. And, what I-I've heard people say is, "I could either work for someone else's dream or I could work for my own dream," and I really had that belief in myself. I feel like someday I can make the next franchise that's like "God of War" level, and it'll be my own.
[00:24:15] It'll be anti-toxic though.
[00:24:17] Yes. Yeah, maybe not as a masculine killing of gods, but hey, now they're making, Lao Fei and stuff, so they're also growing.
Designing Toxicity Out of Games
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[00:24:25] Salaar Kohari: Yeah. let's talk about that a little bit because you reject band-aid solutions to toxic player behavior. reporting systems, mute buttons as fixes doesn't work for you. Instead, you design the toxicity out of the game, essentially. Give me a couple of examples where you've decided to make that change, and what does that look like in practice?
[00:24:53] Yeah, I think that, there's two kind of sides to it. one is like in the single player side and one is the multiplayer [00:25:00] social side of it. And, I kind of-- For the single player side, I think that it's important to be intentional with the messages and even just the representation that you have in the game.
[00:25:08] So when we were working on Sherwood Extreme, we made sure to have a balance of different skin tones, genders, and that kind of thing, between all the different like outfits and cosmetics that you could get in the game. And, also whenever it's like a combat-focused thing, I'm a pacifist, so I don't really like the combat even though I'm making like shooter games and stuff.
[00:25:27] but like right now it's like you're shooting robots in my current game or in the previous one it's like there's some non-human looking goblin type stuff happening. I think, separating the killing humans kind of thing was kind of part of it for me in the single player and showing that representation and all of that, and having a meaningful reason why you're doing this violence if you're gon- if you have to have it.
[00:25:49] and besides that, I think, in the multiplayer social a-angle,I was a League of Legends player, and that was like one of the most notoriously toxic games, and they've done all these reporting systems, but [00:26:00] you still hop in a game and people are like yelling at each other and hating each other, and that's just something that you can't like really patch up, like I said.
[00:26:06] And, it-- from that angle, like one of-- A simple example that I learned, when I played like Halo back in the day was, in the co-op version, there was a... In the legendary, I would say it was less accessible because when one of the players dies, you have to restart at the previous point. And that introduced toxicity 'cause either me or my friend would be like, "Oh, why did you die?"
[00:26:24] "Come on, man." "Do the better." you're getting annoyed at each other. Versus in, in heroic difficulty, which I really liked, was if one player dies, if the other player survives for three-- like five seconds or whatever, then the other player will respawn, and suddenly it becomes this collaborative experience where "Oh, because you survived, I get to respawn."
[00:26:41] "Oh, thank you, man." "You saved me," or whatever. Or if you both die, then it's both of your fault, so you can't really be mad at that either. like that, that respawn mechanic inherently made it so that you're building that connection together and thanking each other rather than being upset at each other.
The Games that didn't Make it
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[00:26:54] Salaar Kohari: Let's talk about the game you're about to release. It's your fourth indie game, but you [00:27:00] prototyped many and only finished one. Tell me about the game you killed. Did it have any real potential, and why did you let it go? What's the hardest part of making that kind of call?
[00:27:13] Yeah, there's definitely a lot of games that I never turned into, commercial products. I've probably-- I actually keep track of all the games I've made my whole life, and I think I'm at, 60 right now, including prototypes and stuff. but in recent years, usually between projects I'll prototype, three or four different games.
[00:27:30] see either with my community or with the-- on social media or wherever which ones have legs and then continue from there, based on the prototypes that I create. And most of the time I can tell, oh, either there's nothing unique about this game, or it's too complicated, or it's trying to do something so unique that it's alienating its audience.
[00:27:47] there is one game that I still wanna make that I-- It was an idea, I had in, 20-- it was, like, 2020 or 2019, called, Swing Ball, where it was a mix of, Spider-Man and Rocket League. [00:28:00] So you have, this big 3D arena, and you're, like, swinging, and you have to, swing through hoops to, like-- It's kinda like basketball kinda thing.
[00:28:05] You have to swing through hoops to score points. And, it's, like, all about,the swinging mobility and,and racing and you get in these, flows of, getting through the roop-- the hoops and stuff before the other people. And,it was really fun, and I was really excited about it, but it just-- I wasn't ready to create it, 'cause that was, a game that was built for, esports, for example.
[00:28:24] And those kinds of things, you need to have, proper dedicated servers and, good, multiplayer code. I had never made a multiplayer game back then. And, I also didn't have a community or, a budget to do marketing and build up an esports-level community, which is, a whole thing.
[00:28:37] maybe I'll go back to that idea someday. now that I have multiplayer experience and a community, it could be something that I eventually tackle. but it definitely felt like something I wasn't ready to put in my best work and have that be a success, even though I think it was a good idea.
[00:28:50] Does gravity play into it at all?
[00:28:52] yes. So yeah. That'll help to get the tension on how you're swinging and all. And I was thinking, there could be different characters. There could be, like, a cowboy with a [00:29:00] lasso or,a laser rope one or, a space suit or different characters would be fun.
Games as Political Statements
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[00:29:06] Salaar Kohari: I love it. let's start talking a little bit about your future. Your upcoming game challenges capitalism and centers on family. Games as political statement make a lot of people nervous: publishers, players, platforms. Do you worry that this leads into some sort of dangers, dangerous territory of, propaganda or people calling it propaganda and not looking at it as it should be as a statement?
[00:29:35] Um, I mean, th- two things that I've learned in-- about that is one, everything is political. Literally everything is political because, everything involves some sort of level of empathy. Every time you're-- there's anything social, it's political because there's a dynamic between people, whether that's a power dynamic, a racial dynamic,all-- everything.
[00:29:53] And two, everyone's gonna complain that it's too political. no matter what you have, even if you're making the least political game that [00:30:00] you can think of, people are gonna say it's political, it's, woke or whatever. There's always gonna be haters. that being said, I would rather be intentional and make a bold, call than not make a bold call, and then people are still gonna be mad for some reason or another.
[00:30:12] I don't really-- I'm not really phased by-- Just like how I'm not phased by seeing someone who's really famous or whatever, I'm not phased by somebody hating either. as a kid, I would post my games on the internet and get hate from random strangers online, and I would laugh it off. So I'm kind of-- I don't really, care that much, and I think that the positive impact is so much more valuable than any sort of, backlash or something that things could get.
[00:30:33] I think once you're operating at large scale, companies, like sometimes, like it can be-- put people's, like safety at risk and stuff, and that's kinda messed up,But for the most part, like nobody has seemed to really act on that, those, threats and stuff. so yeah, I, I don't feel like I'm putting myself at risk by doing that.
[00:30:51] and I also-- I don't think my messages are that, like-- I don't try to be like heavy-handed with it at the same time, because I don't want people to feel like,especially with [00:31:00] the interactive element of games, you-- I don't need to be like a movie where it shows this like powerful theme and you're like, "Oh wow," "Oh, now I think about this different perspective."
[00:31:07] It's like you can like just put j- them in that position and through that interactivity, through that world that you create, they can learn these messages without you having to spell it out for them the same way that you might in other media. yeah, I don't try to be like heavy-handed with my messages or anything so that people can really let those messages sink in without having to, be too literal.
[00:31:25] You don't think unstoppable is not a statement?
[00:31:32] Well,I think it does make a statement, but in this day and age, if I say billionaires are bad, there's definitely people who would be like, "Oh, you shouldn't say that." But I feel like,it's not that controversial to say billionaires are bad.
[00:31:43] But what is more impactful is the way that you tell that story, like showing how the world is changing, how people's perceptions are changing around billionaires and the dynamics that people have, and the families of these billionaires and your family and how they're related. Like showing that dynamic and showing that empathy helps those like messages really sink in [00:32:00] more and have people give them like a more well-rounded perspective of why billionaires are bad and what power they actually do have.
[00:32:06] Because the message itself is not as important as like the way that you get there.
What Would You Make?
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[00:32:10] Salaar Kohari: All right. So now if you could design any experience, and it's not bound to any commercial viability or anything like that, but it has to be technically possible now, and thinking about your current fan base, what would you make? What do you want to have exist in this world that doesn't exist yet that you feel that you need to do?
[00:32:34] So I think that, every game that I make,when I'm starting it, I have a d- completely different perception of what I wanna make next and what, where my community is at and all of that. So it has never been like, "Oh, my whole career I've wanted to make this kind of game," or like I feel that strongly about it.
[00:32:50] 'cause again, I'm on my fourth indie game now. My first indie game was my dream game that I always wanted to make, which was an open world RPG with pirates. And after that point, I kind of-- I got that out of my system and I [00:33:00] realized I wanna-- There's so many goals that I have with making a video game.
[00:33:03] I wanna tell an important message. I wanna build a community. I wanna make money. I wanna express myself. I wanna make a game that's, fun. I wanna do something that matches the skills that I'm-- things that I'm tr- like good at creating. So there's so many factors that go into deciding what kind of game to make, and I also leave it up to my community with those prototypes of, which one they like.
[00:33:20] So just to name a few examples, like I would like to make another movement shooter. I would like to make an open world RPG again. I would like to make a cozy game, but I don't think my community would be down for that, so maybe not for a while. But so there's like a lot of different ideas I have, and I like to prototype all of them and see what kind of sticks with people.
[00:33:37] What is a cozy game?
[00:33:39] a game that has lower stakes and there can still be goals and objectives and tension, but it just feels like you're not, like at pressure and you can really relax. for example, like a lot of shop simulators are cozy games, and one idea I had was like when I was a kid, I used to like bead bracelets and stuff.
[00:33:56] I like to wear like beads kind of things, and I would sell [00:34:00] them to like my neighbors. And so if I made a game where you like bead bracelets and sell them to people, it's, it's-- it can be like a very relaxing thing with a positive message. You could be a shop on the beach or something and like it's a very relaxing experience compared to running and gunning everything down.
Creating Joyful Experiences
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[00:34:14] Salaar Kohari: Absolutely. And let's talk a little bit about the one thing that really struck out to me, was that you said you like to have joy. You want to create joyful experiences. And that's something that people think about playful or fun experiences, but joyful is very purposeful. Tell me how you think that is important
[00:34:38] Yeah, I think,definitely going through mental health struggles and stuff in college especially, like it taught me the value of like happiness and the pursuit of happiness. and that's something that, is the most important message I feel like I'm able to do through games. there's a lot of goals I have for making a game again, but one of the most profound is just the ability to lift [00:35:00] people's spirits and bring people together, and those are the two elements of joy, like the happy experience and bringing people together that I really admire.
[00:35:07] sometimes I used to like doubt myself and wonder "Oh, like I work so hard. I could have been a doctor and like saving people's lives." But, then I also see the impact that like some of my games have had on people, how they've told me that it's changed their lives.
[00:35:20] And, there's some examples that like I think about all the time. Like there, there was one guy who was like, going through a divorce and every weekend his, nine-year-old daughter would stay with him. And, whenever they were together, they would play my co-op game together and they would have fun, and that was how they bonded, every weekend.
[00:35:37] that was just like such a meaningful message to me. they said it was like one of the most impactful games on their lives and stuff, and this was just one of my indie games. so this impact it can have on people's lives and then l- not let alone like working on "God of War" where, people are rebuilding their families or getting through their like hospital experiences or whatever it is.
[00:35:54] so many different experiences that it's lifting people's spirits and creating that joy. [00:36:00] and then multiplayer experiences, bringing people together, getting them-- people are getting their friends, their spouses through games. And these are the kinds of like memorable experiences and the joys that, people can do when they're, able to experience a game either on their own or with other people that, really can stick with you a lot longer than other media too, because again, of that interactivity and that innate human need fulfilled of play.
What Comes Next?
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[00:36:22] Salaar Kohari: I, have to start wrapping this up, but I kinda have, one last question, and that is, you're 30, under 30, and we hear a snapshot of your life. When you think 10 years from now, and you're thinking, what do you want people to say about the body of your work that you've created?
[00:36:43] not the awards, not the sales numbers, but the effect it's had on someone, like you just said, that it changed their lives. What else in your body of work do you have yet to express that you want to [00:37:00] do?
[00:37:01] it does change with every game, but overall I would say I wanna make experiences that bring people together. that means working together, forming friendships, forming relationships, people really coming together through the games. I want to show people more of what culture is in the world outside of their own, and show people life can be like this for some people, it can be like that for some people, which helps them relate to the experience, but also understand people and empathize with people better.
[00:37:28] I wanna create games that can build empathy between different types of people. And just games that are fun and,I like the colorful action games 'cause those are really easy to make them like fun and engaging. And I wanna leave people with that memorable experience of "That was a great story.
[00:37:41] I had so much fun. I met my best friend playing that game," or,and those kinds of moments, or even that, "That game got me through the darkest point in my life," 'cause I've heard that before as well, and, I just wanna have that impact on more and more people as I continue to create games.
Where to find Salaar
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[00:37:55] Salaar Kohari: Salaar, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you today. I [00:38:00] really enjoyed getting to know you. Can you tell us what can people expect, where can they find out information, and how do they reach out to you?
[00:38:09] uh, yes, I'm Salar Kohari. You can find me on LinkedIn, is a good way to reach me, and I'm right now finishing my game, Gunstoppable, if you wanted to check that out or play that. My studio is called Cage Studios, and it's my fourth indie game, but there's gonna be a fifth and a sixth, so keep your eyes peeled for what I've got next.
[00:38:28] And, whoever's listening, I would love to meet you or chat with you if you have any questions for me. don't feel shy to reach out, as I mentioned.
[00:38:35] Thank you so much. This has been such a lovely way to spend my evening, and I truly hope that people see what it means to create with joy and empathy. Thank you so much, Salaar. I will talk to you again soon
[00:38:52] Thank you so much. Bye-bye
Outro
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[00:38:55] Shirley McPhaul: This podcast is proudly supported by the PlayStation Hero Project, [00:39:00] championing and empowering emerging developer talent across the globe. Discover new heroes at PlayStation.com China, India, and MENA Hero Project pages. Find the links in the show notes in the description down below.
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