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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Jess, I'm wondering if maybe you can explain what we're planning on talking about today and sort of the reasons why, not necessarily if it involves specific people, don't necessarily name names, but
Just explain what we're gonna talk about and it's probably gonna be a two-part episode and why you wanted to talk about it.
So
Recently I was doing a discipline week on Nurtured First and the stories and the posts, and I noticed a feeling in myself
Rising up of not frustration, but just like, man, there's still so much work to be done, talking about punishments and consequences.
Because every time I do these discipline weeks, I get these same questions, which is
How are kids gonna learn without consequences?
How are we gonna teach kids lessons or teach them how to behave without punishments?
Right.
And these are from really well-meaning parents.
They just don't know another way.
And how are we teaching kids to not be spoiled or bratty or misbehave if we're not using consequences and punishments?
And that's kind of like the overarching question that I was telling you about.
And then from there, I notice parents get really stuck, right?
They get stuck on, okay, so if I want to use natural consequences, well, what's the consequence for this?
Or or what am I supposed to do when they say this?
And like
really stuck in kind of like these tiny details of how to respond to their kids.
And I think it's making parents feel really overwhelmed because they can't always find a consequence that makes sense or something to do to their kids to make sense.
So parents just seem really confused.
And then along the same lines, what I was telling Scott is that parents are also still feeling like spanking might be an option.
And I was saying that's I feel like that's mostly North America though at this point.
Smacking or spanking is illegal in a lot of other countries.
It's actually fascinating because whenever it gets brought up, which is every time I do a discipline week.
It's all people from different countries like Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, you know, they're all messaging me like it's illegal here.
Like this is not something we'd even consider doing.
Meanwhile, in North America, it's still quite prevalent.
Yeah.
I mean this is just anecdotally.
But from even folks who follow me who want to do, you know, a style of parenting without punishments, a lot of them
Still message me saying, oh, my family thinks I should spank, or I was spanking my kids, or is it really so wrong if I do it in a calm way and it's only for dangerous behavior?
And I noticed that, especially this last week on discipline that we did, there's just so many of these like tiny questions.
Like parents really feeling stuck on these little details.
But like
Okay, well if they did this then would it be okay to spank or you know if they touch the stove then could I?
And then timeouts too.
And so timeouts is something Scott and I will talk about in depth.
And the research on it feels conflicting, right?
Because a lot of people and who
look at data and who are evidence-based will say actually timeouts are evidence-based and they don't wreck attachments.
So then people will say to Jess, or to me, to me, Jess, why don't you teach timeouts then?
And why are you against it?
I thought you were research backed and
I'm noticing not even pushback, but just questions.
Like parents are confused.
And so Scott and I wanted to address those head on while reviewing the research that is out there.
And as you can see, I brought my computer
into this recording today because even my summary of the research that I did is still seven pages long.
And I think it's important for parents to know that discipline is well researched.
This is not something that's like, oh, we've never researched this before.
There's actually a lot of research.
Some of it's problematic, which I'm sure we'll talk about today, but I think in general there is a wide enough body of research that we can draw some pretty clear conclusions from.
In terms of discipline.
Yeah, in discipline in general.
Yeah.
And I know you said parents want to use consequences or punishments or whatever.
And maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong here.
But I think it's important to define what those even mean.
Mm-hmm.
I totally agree.
Because
Even what I was finding in a bunch of the research was they define certain types of punitive discipline methods.
So it's like
the punishments, but they're like very strictly bound under like you have to use this very specific protocol for, let's say for instance, for a timeout, you have to very use a very specific protocol.
And it's only under this exact step-by-step guide.
And only if the environment is set up in this way and it's not used in these other ways.
Whatever.
Like a lot of it is around that.
And the definitions, honestly, I was learning a lot about even the definitions of some of these types of, let's say, discipline methods.
Well, I'd say I we I talk a lot about my behavioral background and I will say this is something I definitely take away from that, is that when you're in behaviorism, the first question is what's the definition?
Like what's the operational definition of this?
Which I think is fair, honestly.
That makes sense because I think for a lot of these, like I did research on bribes.
versus rewards, logical consequences, natural consequences, time outs, time ins, threats, yelling or harsh verbal discipline, so like h humiliation, all that kind of stuff, physical or corporal punishment.
But
It was important, I think, for my own understanding to really understand those definitions because I feel like, and this is most parents.
I think are going to view a lot of these things and like, well I grew up with this happening and that's my definition of it.
But in reality, when you're looking at evidence or research, peer-reviewed articles, they have very
Narrow definitions of the same thing.
Yeah, and I think that's where a lot of the confusion around the gentle parenting trends and oh it's so
Permissive, you know, we don't use the words gentle parenting here, but that's where it gets really confused because we've lost the definition of what we're doing
Because there's conscious parenting, gentle parenting, positive parent.
Like everyone's calling it something different.
I think no matter who you talk to, it seems very clear that the term authoritative parenting
is the term that should be used as like this is the effective method.
And let's say you can throw conscious or
gentle or whatever terms for parenting.
But it doesn't matter.
Authoritative parenting itself is what is well researched for decades as being the best.
parenting style and methodology.
Yeah, I think that's important to note.
So when Scott and I are talking about discipline, we are talking about authoritative discipline or authoritative parenting, which is well researched and has been for decades.
Well when we're talking about I think it should be clarified that
When we're talking about the most effective Yes, effective discipline.
Which we internally here like to call that like a warm structured parenting.
So we provide
a ton of warmth and love and kindness and respect to our children.
And then also there's clear boundaries.
And you have lots of clear, consistent, logical boundaries based on the developmental stage that your child is at.
So that's even like another definition where it's like you have to add that at the developmental stage your child is at because I think that's in a lot of these they don't necessarily take into account all of those different aspects.
Yeah, so I I think let's yeah, let's be clear.
So when Scott and I are talking about effective discipline, we are looking at the research on two different things.
So we are looking at the research on authoritative
parenting, which authoritative parenting well researched has been shown to have kids with the best outcomes later in life and mental health, even work, relationships, all sorts of areas.
This is where kids have the best long-term outcomes and even best relationship with you into adult years.
Yep.
And that type of parenting, authoritative parenting, has high levels of warmth.
That's your unconditional love.
That's your
Your nurture, you should like validating your kids' feelings, all of those things, walking them through hard times, and high levels of structure.
So that's your routine, that's your boundaries, that's you being the leader in the home.
Chores, that's chores.
Not being able to watch TV for hours on end, like all those different things.
That's a parent saying no.
And being consistent with with it and it being
Logical.
And then where we come in, and what's really important to me as I would describe myself developmentalist is to also come in looking at child development.
I think sometimes we are missing that when we're looking at just authoritative parenting because we can say, well, I want to put this boundary in place or this is my rule.
But then we forget to say, oh, but they're two and and they can't actually do that without your support
Right, so then we also are bringing in this child development piece where we're understanding the child's brain and the stage of development that they're at.
And I think when we can kind of see all three of those pieces, maybe it's like a triangle, I don't know, like we have the warmth, the structure, and the child development piece together.
that's when we have the most effective combination for discipline.
And that does not involve punitive
I'm before we get into that, before we say it doesn't involve punitive discipline, I think we should just get into what my core findings were.
And I'm gonna ask you a bunch of questions about this because
You know this about me.
But my goal is to prove you wrong in some aspect of this.
Mm-hmm.
So that was kind of my goal in reading all of the research that's available.
So all these and I tried to stick to mainly peer-reviewed articles and things.
to make sure that it's the most legit.
My goal was to trip you up on something because that's just what I'm like.
Well and I think that's important because I would love for this episode to be shared with people who are skeptical.
Yeah.
Right
And so I think if we just come at it saying, nope, punishments are wrong, you know, we're not addressing the skepticisms that are real and actually valid.
I think it's important to be skeptical if you're trying a new approach and
And you're parenting your kids, it's the biggest job in the world, right?
So we have to be mindful and aware and conscious of the parenting.
So I think it's good that people have the questions and hopefully we can help answer them in a research-backed way.
So my idea was to start with, let's say, what would be considered the most harmful and then kind of work our way towards like
eventually talking about timeouts, which I think are originally kind of what we had talked about.
There was someone very popular who's very data driven when it comes to discussing parenting and family life.
And they were explaining that timeouts are actually evidence-based and should be used and can be used by evidence-based parenting methodologies or practices.
But I want to start first with the, let's say the most punitive, which would be like physical punishments like spanking, spacking.
All of those.
Okay.
And I know that your answer will be
There's no place for any of those.
And I want to know why do you think that's the case?
Is there not a single situation you could think of where that's ever the right thing to do?
To spank or physically hurt
cause pain to your child.
Yeah, like I'm thinking, okay, something as simple as at one point I think I asked you, are girls when they were
really little would try and shove things into the receptacles.
And like we lived in an old house, so a lot of the receptacles didn't have that tab inside that you have to push hard through.
So my idea was to flick their fingers because that is a small portion of the pain that they would actually feel if they were to shove a fork or something into that receptacle.
So is there nothing like that where you think physical punishment is warranted?
Right.
I think that's such a good question.
I remember we kind of had a disagreement about that when the kids were doing that.
I think we have to look at our role as parents, right?
So well like what I'll say is I don't think you ruined our child's attachment when you flicked their fingers because they were putting their their
whatever a knife in the outlet or whatever, right?
And I totally understood where you were coming from, right?
This is gonna cause them less pain, but at least they'll start to associate this with pain, right?
Yeah, because the reality is if you shove something in there
I've been shocked before.
It's it's a pretty painful experience.
A lot more painful than someone flicking your fingers.
So I figured that was kind of a logical
Let's say consequence of trying to shove something in the receptacle.
And I think your way of thinking is the slip slippery slope in which and and this is maybe where I have part of the problem with that.
It's like it starts with that
But then I've heard parents start with that and then it's like, okay, but now they want to run across the road.
And so I'm going to spank them because that hurts less than running across the road.
But then they have to know it still hurts.
I think it can grow on itself.
Like once we've kind of started that mindset of like, oh well, it's gonna cause them pain.
So I'll first cause them pain so that they don't keep doing it, right?
So that's where that's one reason I don't love it
So your question is where does it stop?
Yeah, where does it stop?
Like I think it can be a s like if that's your mindset.
Or like the stove.
They're touching the stove.
Okay, so now you're touching the stove and I'm flicking their hand.
And now I don't know.
I feel like from my experience, once you've opened the door to say it's okay to cause my child pain so that they have lesser pain, it is a slippery slope into
Well, kids do a lot of things that are gonna cause them pain, right?
So, you know, my child's gonna jump off a table and hurt her foot.
that causes pain.
So I I don't want her to keep jumping on the table.
So if I spank her, then is that like teaching her, okay, this is going to cause you pain?
You know what I mean?
Like
It does spiral.
And so that's one thing I don't love about it, is it opens the door to say that this is the type of discipline I'm okay with.
For you it didn't, but for a lot of people it does.
Right.
Um I mean you convinced me not to do it.
Yeah, and I did convince you to do it.
The other thing I don't love about that type of approach is we are not kind of taking our own leadership role as parents
Right, we're saying, okay, I'm gonna hurt you so you don't hurt yourself in the future.
But as a parent, what I would think in my own home, let's say, my job would be to create an environment that would be safe for my kids where they're not
They don't have the opportunity to put their finger in the outlet and shock themselves.
So in that situation, I think it's more on us for having unprotected outlets that don't have those covers and not setting up an environment that is safe for a child to roam in
and giving our child the opportunity to possibly shock themselves.
So you're saying we should put like the outlet covers on instead so they can't even access them.
Yeah, like I would I actually when I was
see that would say to myself as a parent, wow, I'm actually not setting up an environment that's safe for a small toddler because understanding
child development, my toddler is going to be incredibly impulsive, as we talked about a few weeks ago, right, in that episode.
So my job as the leader of my home and as the adult and with the logical brain would be to set up the environment in a way that's safe for my kid.
versus just saying, I'm gonna wait till you get yourself into a scenario where you might cause yourself pain and then I'm gonna do that first so that you don't get hurt.
The other reason I don't love that strategy would be
we're not really helping them with their curiosity.
So what we think of the thing that children are really good at is they're very curious.
They're these curious little scientists, right?
And if when they are curious about something, like I'd be curious too, if I was two and I see a hole in the wall and I wonder how a key fits into it, right?
And I wanna try driving like my dad.
We are not fixing the curiosity.
And so then what happens when we're not there?
They know that pain happens when we are there because we're gonna slap their hand or whatever.
But what happens when we're not there?
And they see the hole in the wall and they want to put the key in it.
So I see issues or flaws in the logic of causing your child pain so that they don't keep engaging in the behavior, especially
if you want them to not engage in that behavior when you're not there.
Yeah, and you know what?
It's funny that we're talking about this because I actually can't really remember the conversation that we had originally.
But I know when we moved last year.
The first thing I did covers.
Was put outlet covers on in our toddler's room.
Because she still likes to if she s finds an open outlet, she loves to shove the
the 3.
5mm like jack from uh headphones right into the ground.
Luckily that's all it can fit into, but still that's not a a good practice, so I immediately did that.
And I think that's only because I internalized that, but I actually couldn't remember what my rationale was.
Yeah.
What that was versus just flicking your fingers to show, hey, this is actually gonna be pretty painful if you shove
piece of metal in there.
Right.
And like I get the logic and where you're coming from, right?
But I think that's or when you look at from the other perspective, so what would be better is, and this is what you're really good at now, is taking them
You know, pulling them back and being like, hey, this is the outlet.
When you stick something in it, it will shock you, right?
It will hurt.
Yes.
So I am, but I will say our youngest is now three and can understand that better.
But when any of them were 18 months old, like a year and a half old and doing that, they're not gonna understand me saying, this is gonna hurt
I would still do it.
Yeah, like I still did it, but I I reali I recognize that they're still gonna try as soon as you leave.
Yeah, and that's their job.
Right.
And that's where we come in, what's our job?
To be their leader and to create safe environments for them.
Yeah.
Right
I think we want our kids to just be independent and act safely and we forget that they are 18 months old and they actually need a parent to supervise and make sure that they have safe places to play where they can't hurt themselves.
So I think again it comes down to
Is my expectation on my child realistic?
And if your expectation on your 18 month old is that they're gonna have access to knives or forks or keys and plugs that don't have covers and they're not going to try and be curious and see what happens.
then I think you have an unrealistic expectation and that's your problem.
Yeah, I think that's fair.
Yeah.
So I mean, I am convinced of the physical punishments being at this point not reasonable.
They don't make sense
And in fact, when I looked at all of the the research that I could find on it, that's the general scientific consensus on it.
Like pretty much everyone agrees that it's bad.
It just provides bad outcomes.
And extensive harm
including increased aggression, mental health problems, lower cognitive ability, so basically doing better in school, and damaged parent
child relationships were all much, much more likely outcomes from let's say spanking, smacking, flicking, whatever, all that stuff.
Pinching.
Pinching.
Yeah.
all of those different things.
And in fact, the evidence is so strong that it's not effective that even without randomized controlled trials
they're able to say there seems to be a causal relationship between these physical punishments and negative
outcomes in life.
Yeah.
And the research was like what I found was it was didn't matter what race, what religion, what economic status you had.
Basically nothing changed the fact that there there seemed to be a very strong relationship between physical punishments and negative outcomes in life.
And I mean people can say, well, I'm fine.
I was spanked and I'm fine.
The thing is
You might be.
So I, while I understand that, let's say I was spanked and I'm fine, I know that it's much more likely that if I wasn't and I was in that warm structured home, I would have done
even better.
So like my potential was kind of stunted because of the physical punishment.
So I just I found that quite interesting that it's it's very clear that that's the case.
Yeah, and I will say to people too, because I mean everyone like us so many people say that.
Well, I was fainting, I'm fine, you know.
And they say that and then who knows what ends up happening, right?
Like I mean you're saying you're spanked and you're okay now, but you know, that's after lots of therapy, medication, time, all this stuff, right?
So I mean fine is really if we talk about definitions of what is fine.
But also what I say to people is even if you were spanked and you have a great relationship with your parents, which is a lot of people
and you feel fine mentally, it's great.
It still wasn't an effective way to support you with your challenging behavior.
So even if you are fine, like 'cause I think some people feel really protective over spanking because they need to know that they're okay, right?
Like
If I hear this research on spanking and I was spanked and I love my parents, it's really hard to hear that and think, well, maybe my parents didn't make me okay.
Right.
So then people get very, very defensive over it, which I totally understand.
Or they've been spanking their kids.
And so you say to them, Well, your kids more likely to have a hard relationship with you, be aggressive, you know, drug and alcohol use, whatever it is.
That's really hard to hear
So I think it's important to speak to those people who do feel fine or do have a great relationship with their kids and they've spanked them a few times to say, even if, even if you're fine, even if you still feel you have a good relationship with your kid
It's still not effective.
Yeah.
Right?
So it's not about being fine or not.
And like a causal relationship doesn't necessarily mean if you are spanked equals you are going to
start using drugs and be depressed and anxious and have all kinds of mental health issues and be less intelligent because of it.
It just means if you have any of those things, there's likely a direct connection to
being spanked regularly as a child.
Whatever.
Physically punished as a child.
Yeah.
And if like I know people who've parents maybe spanked them three times or something when they were kids, right?
And they're like, oh I only got spanked a couple times.
So you know
And I I have a great relationship with my parents, right?
It's like, okay, well you were only spanked a couple times and it wasn't effective and there was better ways to support you.
And you can still have a great relationship with your parents.
It doesn't have to put that at risk.
And I think that's important for people to know too.
It's not like you have to be so mad at your parents for spanking you or that your relationship with your own kid is destroyed for life
It's just for us to take that as the data suggests to be like that wasn't effective and there's different ways I can help my kids.
Yes.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, Thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurture First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
So Jess, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
I'm a child therapist and a mom of three, and I have taught body safety and consent education for years.
This course takes all my years of experience teaching this education and gives you calm, age-appropriate language for body parts, consent, and boundaries.
You'll learn how to teach your kids that no means no, you'll learn how to teach them to read facial cues, you'll talk about safe and unspeakable.
Safe touch, and you'll even teach them about their uh oh feeling.
There's guidance inside this course for the real life stuff, like tickling that goes too far, and even the difference between a secret and a surprise.
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So check the course out at nurturedfirst.
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And just full disclosure here, we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
Okay, let's move on to verbal discipline, specifically harsh verbal discipline
Okay.
Because I think harsh verbal discipline and say just verbal discipline are two very different things.
I was seeing some research that was suggesting that about ninety percent of American parents
are using some form of harsh disciplines like yelling at some point or whatever.
So it's even if the study was not done super well, it's very likely a a high proportion of
At least North American.
I don't I can't speak for other cultures, but let's say North America, Canada, United States, maybe Mexico as well, a large portion of us
use harsh verbal disciplines like yelling or belittling or humiliating or whatever all those different things from time to time.
So what issues do you see with that?
I mean, I'm so curious what the research has to say.
I'm sure it'll be aligned with what I have to say.
Yelling as a form of discipline does a couple things.
So first it sends your child's body into a state of fight or flight.
or freeze, right?
So often you're yelling at your child, but they're not actually hearing the words that you're saying.
They're just knowing to themselves, I'm unsafe right now.
You know, I've done something wrong.
I'm bad, I'm unsafe.
But if you even think about yourself as a child, you likely remember times you were yelled at, but maybe not the specific words.
So in terms of being affected
active in teaching your child a new skill, helping them understand what they did was wrong, partnering with them so that they behave differently next time.
We're not teaching that when we're yelling.
We're scaring our child into stopping what they're doing.
Okay, so that's the first thing
The second thing is we have to think about the most important thing for children, which we've talked about so many times, is the relationship with you, right?
And we know
When children are hooked up or linked up properly to their parent and they're in right relationship, meaning you have this back and forth, your child trusts you, they trust in your leadership, they trust that you have their best interests in mind
And you're doing the work to connect with your child and show them that you understand them and you see them and you want to help them.
Children behave better when they're in that right relationship, right?
Because they want to trust you.
Now, when you're yelling at your child
What that does is it creates a separation or a rupture in that relationship because now they feel fearful of you instead of feeling connected with you.
And when children feel fearful of their parent
it puts their body's alarm system on high alert.
And so what we're trying to do is get them to behave, but because now they're on high alert, we might see them freeze.
Right.
I have noticed that with our daughter.
If like I get mad at her about like touching the cat or something, touching the cat's her thing.
She has a hard time with her impulse control.
And I come at her angry, she just freezes and holds the cat tighter
Right.
And what that looks like is deliberate disobedience.
Like I told you to put the cat down and you're holding her tighter.
What's actually happened is her body's in a state of freeze.
Her alarm system has gone off and she
can't hear the words I'm saying, but her body's just stuck.
Right.
But we also see that in children when we're yelling at them and they they run away.
And now they also look disobedient.
You're running away from me.
You know, I told you to
to stay here and listen, now you're running away.
But that's funny, our toddler did that yesterday too.
Yeah.
But their body's taken over.
Their body's taken over.
Or they fight back.
Right.
And so that that's where you get those kids with that active temperament who are like, now they're yelling back at you
So that's the other reason I don't like that it basically an alarm focused sense of discipline where we're just we're triggering our child's alarm system so that it shuts down and they behave the way that we want them to.
But what happens is a rupture
And now what happens inside the child is, well, I don't fully trust my parent because I need to feel safe around them in order to want to come to them, in order to tell them the truth, in order to behave well.
And I'm worried this person's gonna yell at me, so I retreat, right?
Or I fight back really hard so that I don't get yelled at.
And the
The third piece with this kind of discipline we need to think about is children behave in the way that's modeled to them, right?
So if we yell at our kids to get them to listen, what stops our kids from yelling at us or yelling at others in order to get people to listen to them
Nothing.
Children learn from the behavior that they see and the behavior that we want them to do, they have to see that through us first.
And I think a lot of parents get stuck in these traps of yelling at their kids where they yell at their kids and now their kids yell at them and they're yelling back at them and now okay, you know, go to town
out or a spanking because you're being disobedient, but we're stuck.
We're stuck in a loop where a child seeing us act in a certain way, then they act back and we're stuck.
And actually to go back to spanking, it's another reason not to spank, right?
Because you're modeling the infliction of pain to get your way or to show them that this is how you should behave.
And so of course a child's gonna now inflict pain on others when they want others.
So it's just that's where that child development piece comes in and we have to look at that too.
Yeah, I think that makes sense.
Basically what I found is that
The research suggests that harsh verbal discipline creates a hyperactive threat system.
So the alarm system I was talking about, yeah.
So that fight, flight, freeze, but it becomes it can become hyperactive.
So then the children are more likely, as they grow older even, to think that someone is upset with them when they aren't.
The system is just more hyperactive in general, so it takes a lot more for them to work through that over time.
Well I think like think about being a child and being yelled at all the time, let's say by your mother.
I'm not talking about you, I'm just saying it like in general, a specific situation.
So you're yelled at a lot by your mother and you learn that there's certain things that your mom does or that you do that's gonna make your mom yell at you.
So you learn to walk on tiptoes around her.
You know, you learn to manage her behavior in a certain way.
You learn to look out for her little cues that tell you she's mad at me.
And so what your body's actually learning, the story your body is learning is how to be on high alert all the time.
And then you get out of that house and you start to look for those cues in other people.
Well
Are they mad at me?
Are they gonna yell at me?
Meanwhile, they might never be mad at you, right?
But your body is now used to seeking out these signs that
Someone's mad at me, I'm gonna get yelled at, I'm gonna get in trouble.
And this is where we see people become people pleasers.
We see them become very quiet or they walk on eggshells or they never want to state their opinion because they're so
fearful and the story that they've told themselves is that everyone's mad at me.
I'm just like waiting for someone to yell.
Or they become their own bully internally and just get mad at themselves all the time and become perfectionists.
Right.
So we do see mental health wise a very long-term outcome.
The other thing about yelling is you're really you're using your this the most intimate vulnerable thing, which is the relationship with your child, almost against them
in order to get them to do what you want, right?
Like I'm gonna revoke the love and just give you anger so that you do what I want you to do.
Yeah.
And that is very, very difficult for a child.
To process and understand.
So I do think it's really important that we talk about yelling.
And I also understand we a lot of us struggle with that because that's how you were parented.
And so that's of course the first thing that comes to your head
Well, and I mean if the study that I looked at was even remotely accurate, about 90% of American parents use harsh verbal discipline.
So that's yelling or belittling, humiliating, whatever, like different things like that.
But yeah, that's a large proportion of people.
And I can't even say that I've never yelled at the kids.
I probably have a couple times.
Yeah.
Not a lot, but still it takes a lot of effort to
Be calm.
Yeah, to be calm.
Especially when you have three kids destroying the house doing something.
Yeah.
You're like, I just cleaned this.
Why are you yeah.
Totally.
Yeah, I mean, hey, everyone's been there.
We have to get out the door on time.
We have to get the we're hurrying, we're rushed.
I think two reasons parents yell.
A, yes, your childhood experiences.
Some people are much more prone to yelling, because that's just all they know.
But B, your nervous system.
Yep.
So when you're dysregulated, tired, hungry, haven't slept, stressed, you're gonna be much more likely to yell at your kids.
And so a lot of that work is internal.
And also yelling at your kids a few times does not ruin the relationship.
You know, if in general your approach is that warm structured approach.
So we're talking more so about kids who are yelled at consistently.
Like that's the approach to discipline.
Yeah.
I think in general
Like with all of these different punitive discipline methods, it's not about if you've done it once or twice, that kind of thing.
Like if you've done it accidentally.
It's more if it's a consistent thing.
in your life that you've done and you've done it over the long term.
Yeah, like it just rewires.
Like if we go back to which episode was it on impulse control?
Where we talked about the development of the a child's brain and
how the neural pruning is happening and you're essentially if you do it enough their brain is pruning so that they're uh I didn't mention this but
Also the their reward system is blunted, so then they're like actively seeking out praise from people and like trying to study you to see like do you like me, that kind of stuff.
and their threat system is hyperactive.
So you're essentially over the long term kind of helping their brain rewire in that way.
And then they have to maybe later in life like
Some of us parents are doing, try and reparent and rewire your brain at the same time, which is more challenging as you when you're older.
Yeah, and here's the thing about yelling that I hear from parents is like, well, they only listen when they yell.
So we've conditioned our kids to not take you serious until you yell.
That's what I say to parents, because they'll be like, but just I have no choice.
Like I have to yell.
And I say it's not that you have to yell, it's that your child's learned that to only take you serious when you're yelling.
So it's just a cycle that we have to break or a pattern that we have to get out of.
Yeah, for sure.
Alright, let's move on to bribes, threats, rewards, all those things.
Because I was stating to you this morning that I feel like I might stump you on some of these ones just because
So I think it's incredibly common that parents often use threats with consequences
Mm-hmm.
Bribes with rewards.
I just think it's um important to talk about that.
I guess what's wrong with threats and consequences and those different, I guess, discipline methods?
What what issue do you take with threats?
Because if on the f
The face of it, it doesn't seem like there's too much wrong with it.
And if you like you're not actually physically causing them pain.
You're not necessarily emotionally causing them pain by using harsh discipline.
Well maybe you are, I don't know.
But you're kind of getting them to change their behavior based on a threat that maybe you may or no may not follow through on, but that's how you're helping them realize that they're doing something incorrectly.
Yeah.
Okay, so just to clear the air, everyone's threatening their kids about something or another, right?
Like if you don't do this, then this kind of situation.
So I mean
I think on the whole, if you're being that warm structured parent and occasionally you're like, hey, you know, we're not getting ice cream after unless you do this
I mean, I don't think it's the end of the world.
And if threats are your system of discipline, which is something that I see quite common, right?
So that's actually very common that threats become so ingrained in the style of discipline of a parent
that it becomes a problem.
So here's where threats become a problem.
One, actually I just wrote this note, whenever I drive I don't have music on and then I
just kind of brain dump onto my notes app.
So I actually just I think I'll read it to you just in preparation I was thinking about this episode on the way over and you can tell me what you think about this.
But I just wrote this in the car
We've been using what children love against them for so many years.
And we wonder why they have a difficult time, you know, attaching to people or objects or trusting us when if we threaten them their entire childhood, it meant that the things that they love were always on the line.
Right.
Like we could always take them away at any minute.
And I think when we talk about a children's alarm system, that's what happens, right?
So sure, you're not taking away
the thing that they love.
You're just threatening it.
But it still puts their alarm system on high alert.
You could take this thing away that I really care about.
And I can't stay attached to it or whatever because anything that I love could just be taken from me or used against me.
Right.
And if that's our style of discipline, like my child loves this thing, so I'm going to tell them they can't have it unless they act in the way that I want.
That does something to your child's brain.
The other thing that I I have seen in my practice with threats, so
Let's say I had this mom and she was going to Disneyland, right?
And she's like, it's great, then I'm going to Disneyland.
Because whenever my child does something I don't want them to do, I say, well, you can't go to Disneyland.
if you don't do this.
It's perfect because they've been the best behaved they've ever been because they really want to go to Disneyland.
But it backfired on her because it's not long term.
Because as soon as she got back from Disneyland
the child went straight back to all that behavior, right?
Now I have to think of another thing to take away.
Right.
And I have to up the antsy.
And she was never gonna not take him to Disneyland.
The whole time she was going to take him to Disneyland.
So the times when he still did the behavior, even when she threatened to take away Disneyland, well she wasn't going to take away Disneyland, so they still went.
So what else happens with threats is a child learns to not trust their parents' words.
And if you think that the whole way a child listens and trusts their parent and
behaves well is through that trusted relationship.
When you have an empty threat, you are actually threatening the trusted relationship.
Because you're saying to your child
I'm just gonna say these things, I'm gonna use the things you love against you, but I'm not gonna follow through with it, and I'm just gonna be mad and resentful towards you about it
It's just unfair to a child and it doesn't strengthen your relationship.
In fact, it teaches them to be more closed off because you could use things that they love against them at any time.
Right.
So that's one piece on threats
So I don't love threats.
Um figured.
I've used them from time to time.
But not in a way I feel good about, you know, just sometimes you're like, if you don't listen and we don't get out of Costco on time and you're not getting a hot dog at the end, you know
But I what I do want to say to parents is you can actually set things up a lot better without using a threat.
So there is a difference between setting an intentional boundary and threatening.
So I'll give you the Costco hot dogs as an example
Before I go into Costco and I'm very calm and I'm talking to the girls, our girls always want a hot dog when we leave Costco.
That's just the thing.
I will say if we can have
Who well, me, hot dogs are disgusting.
But anyway, I will say to them, if we can have a really nice trip in Costco and everyone listens well and the trip goes
Good.
The end of our shop.
Everyone's still feeling good and we're all happy and we're all getting along.
We will have time to stop for a hot dog
But if we go into Costco and no one's listening and everyone's crying because they want different items in the store and everyone's trying to beg me for things which I already told you we're not getting, then we won't have time for a hot dog
Because the trip's not going well and we're not gonna have time for a hot talk at the end.
And I will just lay out the expectation.
It's not a threat.
It's it's if this goes well, then this will be the outcome.
Yeah, but then
That sounds like both a threat and a bribe mixed into one So where I see the difference and maybe I'm wrong.
Like maybe this is where I'm wrong.
I see threats and bribes as more in the moment.
I'm frantic and I'm like they're already screaming and crying and I'm like, okay.
You know, if you like I'll give you a hot dog if you stop screaming and crying.
Versus this is like a pre-planned out thing, and these are the two possible outcomes that could happen.
We either get a hot dog or we go straight home.
Right.
Everyone's on the same page before we're ever in the situation.
To me, I I see that as different.
Okay, well maybe even it's you could define that as a reward then for
But is that like using a reward or positive reinforcement actually does that align with the type of parenting that we want to
I don't know, the methodology we want to use.
Yeah, and maybe the hot dog example 'cause we're talking about food is uh Yeah, because I would say if I were going there, it would be more time-based.
If we can get all these things done by this amount of time
We'll get a hot dog.
And then I would say to them, and the only way that's going to be possible is if you girls can help me.
One of you has to help find these grocery items.
One of you has to
Help me find whatever this thing I need for the garden.
And if we can get all this done within a specific amount of time, then we we have time for a hot dog.
Yeah, I think that's perfect.
But
I feel like I wouldn't I personally at this point You wouldn't bring in the behaviors.
I wouldn't even bring in behavior at this point because it's not a necessary thing.
I would say these are the boundaries of the situation.
We have only a certain amount of time.
I'm desperate for a hot dog too, of course.
And maybe that's where you go, we all want a hot dog.
Right?
Everybody here wants to have a hot dog at the end of Costco, so let's work together.
Let's let's get everything done we need to in the amount of time we have.
So that we have time for a hot dog.
I think that's fair.
Yeah.
I see what you're saying.
I challenge the use of behavior almost control to give them anything.
I don't know.
Yeah, I think it's it's semantics and you worded it better
than I did.
Like I think I was wording it reflecting their behavior.
Whereas you're w wording it reflecting like the amount of time we have and how we work together.
We have to work together in order to do it and in order to work together I need you girls to be able to listen to me and all that kind of stuff.
But the outcome of going to get a hot dog is not based on them behaving like
Perfect little angels the whole time because that's just that's also unlikely versus the outcome is based on we need to accomplish these things and if we accomplish those things then we'll have time for that.
Yeah, I think that's perfect.
Yeah, I think uh maybe I'm bringing my own baggage.
This is where sometimes you can bring your own things into your parenting because I had a season of very difficult
difficult grocery shopping trips with the kids where those were the specific things that were a struggle.
And so I felt I had to name those before going into the store so that we didn't get into that.
Whereas
what you're describing makes a lot more sense.
Like kind of outlining the specific trip.
So you learned it here first, folks, that Jess is not perfect.
No, and that's the thing about parenting, and that's what I said too, like I think sometimes we can get s
so caught up in like these like tiny details.
Whereas really at the end of the day, I'm saying it with like, yes, maybe I didn't say it in the best possible way, but I'm still saying it with kindness, with love, with respect to the kids, just letting them know what the plan is either way.
You know, and you're doing the same thing.
At the end of the day, it's not like I've I'm gonna completely ruin my attachment.
There's always like the ultimate way or the better way.
And like you had the better way in this situation of saying it, right
Um but yeah, I think that's actually a really great example of at the end of the day, yes, you said it better, but did either of us ruin the attachment with the kids for
saying it the way we did and kind of outlining.
It's a lot more than just that one Exactly or two sentences.
Yeah, like we can get so caught up in the script, like the exact way to say it.
But I think in terms of like
Just to continue outlining the difference between like a threat.
Like the threat would be the child knows, K, we're going in the store and we're getting a hot dog.
That's the plan.
But then midway through they start crying and you're like
If you don't stop crying right now, we are not getting hot dogs at Costco ever again, like da-da-da-da-da.
That would be a threat to me.
Whereas like what I was trying to explain is like I've already explained both outcomes before we've ever gone in the store
So I've just set the stage up for a lot more success.
And I have done it before where it was a really rough trip and we didn't get a hot dog at the end.
And I think that's where the structure comes in.
And
It's not empty threat.
It's not empty, right?
Like they can trust that I'm gonna follow through with what I said.
Right.
It's a boundary.
It's a boundary.
It's not empty threat, but it's no it's not you have a boundary set up.
Yeah.
So it's not you're following through on the threat that you made.
You're falling through on the boundary.
And the parameters for that boundary have already been set.
Right.
Like I I think of another example, similar kind of thing would be bedtime.
You wanna read your child books at bedtime
like I want to every night.
But sometimes the bedtime routine involves a lot of procrastination and kids, you know, have a hard time wanting to go to bed and now we're playing toys and and da da da.
And so it might be like Scott was saying, like there's a time restraint on it
And hey, if we can all be in bed by eight, we'll have time for books.
But if we're not in bed by eight, then we're not gonna have time for books.
So it's kind of up to you, you know, if you want to have books tonight, then we need to be in bed by eight, which means we need to get going and start getting ourselves
Ready for bed.
I had okay, maybe you can tell me if this if I did this poorly or well.
But last night our middle daughter went to bed a little bit too late and I had told her already there's no books tonight because it's just too late.
You need to actually just go to sleep.
And then she essentially started negotiating with me and saying, well, how about five pages?
I said, no.
Five.
Turns into six, turns into the whole book.
Yeah.
Well, and then
We went back and forth and I finally agreed, okay, you know what?
I'll do three pages, but you s select them from the book.
And she had like specific Yeah.
I think it was green eggs and ham or something like that.
And there's a page with a goat.
So I had to read that one and then
Her three favorite pages.
The last one was the longest page in the whole book.
Always.
Yeah.
To be honest, I actually respected the fact that she was trying to negotiate.
Like I
I like that our daughters will try and push back at boundaries a little bit.
But is that wrong that I set this boundary and then I ended up saying, you know what, I'll do three
Three pages.
This is again where I think we're just stuck on like so specific.
We need it to be so black and white.
Like yeah, some nights if you want to be flexible with your kids while you're still maintaining your boundary, you're not like, okay, fine, we'll read four books
Yeah, right.
You know, that's different, but you're respecting your child and you're listening and then you're asking yourself, is it really so unrealistic for me to read three pages of a book right now?
No, it's not.
Okay, that's fine.
We can do that
Right.
Like I think there's a way in which that can actually strengthen your relationship because you're listening, you're taking her concerns and you're you're seeing that they're valid, but then you're finding a compromise.
I think that's valid.
I think what you'd want to avoid doing is being like, okay, if we're not in bed by eight, then we won't have time for books.
But then they get in bed at like 8.
15 and they
desperately want three bucks and you're like, okay, fine.
Because you want to avoid a meltdown.
And if that's the consistent way that you do things, like you set a boundary, but then to avoid a meltdown, you
pull back on your boundary, then we're leaning into permissive parenting, which we could do a whole other episode on.
That's kind of the opposite of the harsh parenting that we're talking about here.
But it also leads to kids not trusting your word because they know, oh, if I just push back hard enough.
Then they'll just do it anyway.
Yeah, and it seems like threats are often ambiguous.
Like don't make me come over there.
Or if you do this, like don't make me uh I don't know, whatever.
Yeah
Don't make me like as if your child's in control of your behavior.
Which again, if you're saying don't make me get mad at you or don't make me use my firm voice or whatever, you're saying to your child, the way you behave controls the way I behave
That does not put you in the position of leadership in your home.
Well, and one little quote I found that I thought was interesting in one of these studies was the adult
escalates the power struggle by focusing on exerting their own power over their child.
So they're using the fact that they are more powerful than their child to exert that power over their child and use threats, whether you follow through or not, using threats to
manipulate their behavior into doing something that you want in the short term.
Yeah.
And then always keep in mind how do kids learn from what's modeled to them.
So if you don't want your kids to threaten you and threaten others, then not threatening them is the best choice
Yeah, so that's let's say a threat.
Again, it's generally accepted that that's not a not the best tool to use.
There seem to be
like less direct research on it, on threats and bribes and all that in general, but it is counter to what
the majority of research says about the most effective styles of parenting.
So I mean, yeah, you can still look at it skeptically, but I think in general it's kind of going against it can
create that rift where like your child doesn't really trust what you have to say anymore because you're threatening but you potentially pull back on it or you're saying something very ambiguous that they
don't understand what it even means.
Or they learn to be on high alert because they know at any time you could just threaten to take away things that they care about, right?
And then bribes.
What I found are characterized is typically given in the midst of a negative behavior while it's happening with the aim of motivating a child to cease or stop the negative action or to do something they're otherwise unwilling to do.
Mm-hmm.
Bribes make me chuckle because I think about this one day.
This is like many years ago.
And I was teaching a parenting class.
doing therapy with parents or something.
Like our daughter oldest was probably 18 months.
So like lots of years ago.
And they were asking me about bribes and I was saying how bribes, you know.
Not effective in the long term, not a great strategy, like not a great go-to strategy, but hey, most parents will use it once in a while.
And then not two hours later after I'm telling parents
not a great strategy.
Am I trying to get my overtired toddler in the car after daycare?
She doesn't want to leave daycare.
And do I find myself saying
I have some candy in the car.
Like if you sit in your car seat, I'll give you a peppermint or something.
Oh my goodness, Jessica.
And I'm doing it and I'm like
Jess, here we are.
Are you for real?
And I had to laugh at myself being like, this is so humbling, right?
Did you at least tell them afterwards?
I did, I did, I did.
I told them the next session.
I was like, you won't believe what I did
And then they just laughed and They probably will believe it.
Uh yeah, and it humanizes us, right?
Like so again, you talk about the ultimate parenting.
Yeah, of course.
In the ultimate parenting, no one's using bribes.
And sometimes it happens and you use it, but that shouldn't be our go-to strategy, right?
Because then our kid learns, well, I'm not gonna do it until I get something special, right?
Yes.
So there actually is a lot of research on bribes
versus rewards.
And bribes tend to, if used relatively often, not help children build their own what's called intrinsic motivation.
So their their own ability to do things for like the sense of
helping someone else, not because they feel guilty or because they're they're being forced to do it, but because they genuinely see a need and want to.
help that person or they genuinely see the need to my room is a little bit messy maybe I should just do it and just clean it up because it feels nice when I've done that.
Or the need to just cooperate.
Like I think we can be intrinsically motivated to want to cooperate with our parents because we learn I trust my parent, I know that they have my best interest at heart, and when they say it's time to get in the car seat
It means it's time to get in the car seat.
They're gonna stay serious about that.
And when I just cooperate with them, it goes better.
We have a nicer drive home.
Everything is good.
But if we don't give our child chances where we're holding boundaries and getting them in the car seat and showing them that we're serious
to build that and to learn that life is better when we're attached and they want to cooperate with us more, then they just learn, well, if I have a huge meltdown, I'll get a candy.
So I might as well have a huge meltdown every time 'cause then sweet, I get a candy every time I go in the car, which is what we're trying to avoid.
Yes, and the more I learned about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation.
So intrinsic again is I wrote a definition here just so I remembered it, but it's the internal drive.
to act based on personal satisfaction, learning, or desire to contribute.
So it's your own, I want to do this, not for any other reason other than
And want to.
Yeah.
And it comes from within us as adults, but also within children.
And we're trying to foster that more than the extrinsic motivation.
So and also this can lead to more natural curiosity, which children are great at.
A desire to please, not to like the people pleasing level, but just a desire to make the environment happy and healthy and like have a good structure within the home.
Yeah
It's not, again, not to please because you're worried about some negative outcome.
It's more just they have that desire.
They want people, other people to be happy because it's it makes them happy.
Yeah.
And also a sense of responsibility.
So a sense of responsibility for taking care of even something as simple as a book in your home.
That's something we've had to talk to our kids about.
Kids' books, for whatever reason, they like stepping on.
But
That ruins a lot of them.
So we have to have a bit of a sense of responsibility around even taking care of things like books versus extrinsic or external motivators, like rewards, punishments.
or avoidance of consequences and it relies on outside factors to drive your behavior or your child's behavior.
And I think I mean again, this is something that even adults struggle with.
I think if what we know about attachment and relationship just in general
Cooperation, we think we need to bribe our kids or we think we need to punish our kids into cooperating.
I mean, this is kinda like the thesis of this whole argument, right?
But think about the people you're closest to, right?
And you're the most attached to and even as an adult.
There is something wired within us that when we are close with someone and we feel respected by them and they respect us and there's that mutual love and understanding and feeling seen, we want to do nice things for the
person.
We want to cooperate with them.
It's reciprocal, right?
So a child feels that.
When they feel that their parent cares about them, they're tuned in with them.
And they're not using like bribes or punishments to get them to behave, but they genuinely want to help them and show them how to behave.
Right.
And they validate their feelings.
A child sees that and is like
Oh, I'm safe with this person and I love this person.
And because I love them, I enjoy cooperating with them.
I enjoy being out in the grocery store with them.
them.
I enjoy doing this and I know it's more enjoyable when I'm not hitting them and screaming at them and yelling.
And their alarm system isn't activated, so they don't have those behaviors.
Like I think that's what we forget.
Like we get so stuck on how do I discipline, like how do I punish or how do what consequence do I give or whatever that we forget that when a child locked in in that right relationship and they feel seen and heard and respected, it goes both ways.
And I think the problem is that in the very, very early years, we start building these negative patterns.
Right?
So we don't give a child really a chance to develop enough to
to establish that relationship.
Like I feel like with our five and eight year olds, we really have that relationship with them.
So if my if our five year old's doing something she shouldn't, I don't have to say much and she'll stop doing it
Just say, hey, Han, and give her a look.
And she's like, oh yeah, okay.
Yeah, I shouldn't be doing that or whatever.
And she'll stop, right?
Unless she's totally dysregulated.
Because
She's still overtired or something like that.
Yep.
Yeah, like there was one day I took her to a baptism and all of a sudden she was so dysregulated that day and she had a pencil and she started coloring on the wall of the church and I was like, Oh my goodness, what's going on?
But that's so rare these days.
And that was because it was such a busy day.
It was a new environment.
Blah, blah, blah.
Like there were so many factors that led to her being dysregulated in that moment.
And she needed my leadership.
And we ended up just leaving, right?
But what I'm trying to say is in those early years when your kid's a toddler, 18 months to like five, we see their behavior as bad and we see our response of like we have to give a consequence, we have to punish this behavior
But what happens is we start really early on getting into these cycles of so focused on like the minor details of the behavior that we forget about the relationship.
And then as they get older
We've lost the foundation.
Right?
And then we wonder why our five, six, seven year olds don't listen to us.
They don't want to cooperate.
They fight back on everything we say.
But then if you look back, it's like, well, as soon as they were 18 months, I was putting them in time out every time they cried.
Or I was bribing them anytime they were doing what I didn't want them to do.
Or I threatened to take away their favorite bunny, the thing that they love and they're the most attached to
And all those things, they like bring that rupture and then we say, Well, our kids are disobedient and bad, but really I think they've lost that
relationship that innately they could have had.
You know, and I don't say that to blame parents, but just so that we can understand the pattern of behavior.
Well, truthfully, I've worked with you on a lot of this this stuff for almost eight years since we started the website.
Yeah.
And I feel like only recently have I started to like a lot of what you've said I've internalized and just done.
But I feel like I'm finally starting to understand the reasoning behind it.
Yeah
like why this makes sense.
Because I'm starting to understand child development.
That's what I was saying.
I think the child development's the missing piece.
Yeah, it's that piece like that little bit of inform it's a lot of information really.
But that information that if you take into account
like where your child is at.
They're not fully grown adults with a fully developed brain at this point yet.
Their their brains are trying to figure out what the best pathways in their brain are at this point.
And they need you to show them the best way to basically live.
Yeah.
Basically you as the parent are trying to show them this is how I interact with your siblings or your f
my friends or when I'm upset, my parent is showing me that they're calm and yeah, it's okay, I'm here.
Like we talked in the impulse control episode, they're your external brain.
Yes.
Us us parents are the external brain for kids.
It's only recently that I'm really understanding how all of this kind of works together.
And it's not as s yeah, it's not as simple as like
use this script or do this exactly in this this way and everything will be fine.
No it uh that's what I I feel like we get so caught up on these little details well they hit so what do I say
Or they didn't listen and they colored on the church walls, like how do I punish them?
Like what kind of punishment makes sense for that, right?
Whereas I'm just thinking, like let's say the church walls, yeah, of course she shouldn't do that, right?
But also, I'm her parent.
Did I set her up for success that day?
I totally didn't.
Like she was so tired.
Yeah, we were so busy that day.
We're so busy and then I did an hour drive.
To a place she's never been for a sensitive girl who doesn't do well with new places and she has to sit still and be quiet at the end of a day when her body just wants to move.
None of that was me setting her up for success.
So for my qu immediate question to be, how do I punish her for her misbehavior?
is just totally unfair, right?
Like if anything, that my question should be, how do I set her up for success better next time?
And look at my own actions that day.
Not to blame myself, but just to say, how do we get here, right?
Is it the five-year-old's problem or is it the person with the fully developed brain who put unfair expectations on a five-year-old's problem, right?
And I think you're not also not saying
Don't let them have anything that's negative happen in their life either.
Like they have to learn to deal with become resilient, which we've talked about previously too.
Well on that day, for example, she really wanted to see the baby who was being baptized
And I had to say be just because of what was going on, we just need to go home.
Yeah.
This isn't gonna go well.
Like finally I got my logical brain going and was like, we can't stay here.
This isn't gonna go well.
It's gonna be another hour yet before we see the baby.
And so
Unfortunately, we left disappointed.
We didn't get to see the baby and she didn't either.
Right.
So it's not like no consequence happened, but like that was just the natural consequence to what was going on.
And I think that's where people get caught up too, like, oh what what punishment?
It's like
That's enough, right?
Like that's enough to say you don't get to see the baby that you really wanted to see.
We're just not in the right space for this today
Let's go home.
Like that was disappointing.
Yeah.
And I don't have to go home and then give her a whole other punishment yet.
Like take away TV time or something totally unrelated
Yeah, and I think that's the key too.
Like a lot of what was shown was that consequences, if you use them, should be logical or natural.
Mm-hmm.
And like are related they're related to the behavior that was happening.
So let's say if
our daughter is coloring on the wall, she might have to help out clean it up later.
Yeah.
Which in that situation maybe you'd say, well, that's kind of an unreasonable expectation because she did actually clean it.
Oh she did.
Okay.
Yeah, which we cleaned it before we went.
Oh okay
Because if if she was so dysregulated, I might be like, mm, okay, I'll do this one, but then we'll have to have a discussion about it later.
Yeah.
And I'll remember that we
Have to talk about that later so that it doesn't happen like that again.
The way I could see progress with our daughter in that moment is that after she colored on the wall and it total dysregulated like she was not there.
She immediately saw what she had done.
And I didn't even have to really say too much.
And she was like, Mom.
And like her big eyes like points at what she did, realizes it was wrong.
And she wants to clean it up.
Yeah.
What's a I mean it's that part of the brain, the emotional part of the brain that's taking over for her, right?
So it's kind of like
the logical part is competing w competing with the emotional part and the emotional part won over in that situation, but then all of a sudden the logical part, because it's starting to develop, is kicking in, realizing, oh hey, that probably shouldn't have happened.
Mm-hmm.
I think
We can almost wrap up this portion of the episode, but I wanted to just say that I think a part of the discipline issue is that we think children should be independent.
And I think I mean this is a whole episode on independence versus dependence, but you can let us know if you want us to do that episode.
But I think, you know, from the moment at least our babies were born
You start getting ads for like sleep training.
How do we get them to sleep alone?
Right?
And then they get into the toddler years and so like how do we we show them how to play independently?
And how do we, you know, with the outlet thing, how do we let them be in a room without
being unsafe independently?
How do we help them make friends?
How do we do this?
And we have in our society, maybe not everywhere, but here in North America at least, this
Like such a strong desire to make these kids independent from day one.
But that is not what child development science tells us.
And it's not what our kids tell us
You think of a baby, what they really need and what they want, right?
A baby cries because they want to be held and they want to be tuned in with their parent and they need the comfort and they need the closeness.
They've literally just lived inside of your body for nine months, right?
Or
a body for nine months and now they want that comfort, but we're told as parents, they have to sleep independently.
They have to be on their own.
Like all of these things.
And so I think what is actually very developmentally appropriate behavior we view
From their not being independent, right?
And instead of seeing, oh, it's actually my toddler's job to be dependent on me to learn how to regulate their emotions
it's my toddler's job to need me to be in the room to make sure the room is safe so that they don't stick a fork in the outlet.
And it makes sense like also as parents, we have so much demands on us, we have less support, all of these things too.
So we want our kids to be independent, but it's just not a realistic expectation.
And so I think and I've talked about this throughout, but a lot of the times we're punishing kids for things that are developmentally appropriate because we have this expectation that they should be able to do more.
and be more independent.
When in reality when we can remember that in these early years, like zero to seven, let's say
more independence starting around five.
But in these early years, dependence is their job.
And it's only through dependence, relationship with you, feeling so safe.
that they can start to step out on their own.
And I think when we can reframe that and see a lot of these things as they're dependent on you to like regulate their emotions or calm themselves down or they need your help to to go to sleep
as okay instead of as the problem, I think it really changes the way that we see our kids and the way that we show up for them.
Right.
And I think, I mean if we're gonna use school as the uh
What's it, the yardstick?
I don't know.
But school.
Yeah.
The goal is to, I think, make our children as independent as possible by the time they're ready to move out.
But that means at the younger ages, they are highly dependent on you, and they become less and less dependent on you, but not completely
independent.
I should have done that.
Right?
And even after they've left, like I hope our daughters are calling us and be like, hey, I had this problem
What do you think?
This is what I think.
So I I want them to have the critical thinking skills to like to work out a problem on their own, but then still feel comfortable calling us and being like, how would you handle this situation?
I've never come across this before
So there's still that, I don't know, interdependence then.
It's less dependence on us to help them survive and now it's more on helping them
figure out their relationships and work struggles and whatever else.
Yeah.
I think we actually pull back the dependence piece way too early in school.
And I think what parents need to remember even all the way through school age, like up until like late teens.
is that your child actually needs you so much more than you still think, right?
Um I think you should pull back.
I don't think you should pull back at all.
But I mean the reality is though, don't you think that they are inherently more independent
So like the situations that they're in.
But they should still depend on you for that warmth and structure and safety.
You don't pull back.
They naturally become more separate.
So you continue doing your work as a parent.
setting things up for success, making them safe, tuning in with the relationship.
You don't pull that back.
They eventually ask for more space and they want to go out on their own and they want to do more things.
But you're still always pouring into that relationship the whole time.
And you have to pull back a little bit on certain things and let them try out others.
Like is that what you're saying?
Yeah, you you continue being developmentally appropriate, right?
Like you keep the child development in mind.
But I think parents like when it comes to like the tween years will often be like, okay, well now they're with their friends.
Right.
But I actually think in that age gap, even more so, they still need you to make sure that they're safe.
They still need you to be tuning in with them
But in the perfect environment where the parent is continuing to pour into that relationship, they feel more confident to
kind of venture out and do their own thing knowing that they have that safe base to always return back to.
Oh so it's like the the toddler or the baby that will crawl to the other side of the room and then look back to make sure you're still there and then go about doing their thing and then look back every once in a while
Like you're saying that's still how it should be when they're even teenagers.
Yes.
Yeah, I am saying that teenagers will become independent or like they'll strive for separateness.
Only through togetherness.
Like so they have to first feel so solid at home.
Know that it's like the same.
Yeah, like they look back and you're still there.
And through that
That they can safely navigate the waters of being a teenager.
But it's never about pulling back so that they can be independent.
It's about continuing to be there and show up for them.
But just, you know, you're obviously not like
holding their hand when they walk the street, but there's different ways that you're showing up for them in those years.
But you're never pulling it back.
Yeah, again, as you get older, the challenges are more complex.
Yeah.
So
the simpler things like even making their own food and getting dressed in the morning and making sure they're showering and all that, like you might have to remind them, but they're sort of handling all of the simpler tasks on their own.
And it's the more complex stuff that you're starting to help them with and making sure you're very connected with them on if I'm understanding correctly.
Yes, absolutely.
It's like
Maybe they're making their own lunch but you're in the kitchen talking with them about their friends.
Yeah.
Right?
So yeah, they shower on their own but
Maybe you drive them to their your their friend's house and you talk on the way about, you know, oh, you know, anything you're worried about, whatever.
Yep.
I just think I wanted to mention that 'cause I think that historically there's been this thing of like, oh they're teens, like I can pull back and they can kind of do their own thing.
I think that's like a total incorrect way to look at the teenage years and I think it's causing a lot of issues.
So I think that makes sense.
Yeah.
Well, I think this is a great place to end part one of this conversation.
Hopefully you got something out of it
In our next episode, so next week, we are going to continue this discussion, so it'll be part two, still related to punishments, but it's going to be all about timeouts.
and specifically about the claims that it's evidence-based and why you may or may not want to be skeptical about those claims.
So hopefully you join us for that one next week.
Can't wait.
Thank you all so much.
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