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Ben Callahan joins Brad to discuss what’s currently motivating him, from enjoying homemade ham and bean soup in Ohio to a deeper focus on connecting people through curiosity-led facilitation. Ben reflects on a transitional season of life, the importance of personal and organizational values, and how communities work best when they’re allowed to form organically. He describes his annual values exercise, the role of sharing and teaching in web culture, and the need to reintroduce humanity after COVID. The conversation also explores music’s ability to create presence and unity, with recommendations including Chanticleer, Jacob Collier, and Radiohead.
Books
Books
- Get Together — Building Community
Music / Artists
Websites / Communities / Projects
- ben callahan.com — Ben's home base for everything
- The Question — Weekly open community design systems research project
- Redwoods — Ben's new paid community for design systems practitioners
- Sparkbox — Ben's consultancy
- Design Downtime — Podcast by Guy Siegall (Ben was a season 1 guest)
Chapters:
- (00:00) - Introduction
- (00:26) - What has Ben waking up excited?
- (09:37) - Community as Resistance
- (13:55) - Values and Learning Mode
- (35:08) - Hardship Resets Trajectory
- (37:52) - Sharing Culture Of The Web
- (42:46) - Music Presence And Connection
- (50:39) - Consciousness Curiosity And Openness
- (57:02) - Music Recommendations
- (01:01:00) - Where To Find Ben
Creators and Guests
Host
Guest
What is Wake Up Excited!?
Inspiring conversations with exuberant humans about how to live a creative, fulfilling, and authentic life. Hosted by enthusiasm enthusiast, Brad Frost.
We experience a brief moment of truth when we first wake up in the morning. Before the cold shower of reality, our infinite to-do lists, and macro-level woes seize our consciousness. We experience a brief moment of excitement — and this pure moment tells us something important about ourselves.
There are people out there who seem to move through life with intention, authenticity, creativity, kindness, and enthusiasm. And they do this despite the deeply inperfect world we inhabit. This podcast is an attempt to learn from these people.
Through wide-ranging conversations, Wake Up Excited explores guests' passions, interests, enthusiasms, and philosophy of life.
Brad : Ben.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: What's up, Brad?
How are you?
Brad : dude.
Great.
I only have two questions
that are for this entire show.
That's the only structure of the show is
the first question and the last question.
what has you waking up excited?
Ben-jamin' Callahan: A
lot of things, honestly.
I like the first thing
that came to my mind.
I was doing a bunch of work stuff
yesterday, in between calls, I was in my
kitchen and I was making my favorite soup.
I made this incredible
ham and bean a soup.
That's just like one of my
favorite things, and it's been
like cold and wet here in Ohio.
So I, I, I just felt like the right time.
And so I woke up this morning and
I was like, I can't wait for lunch.
Brad : That's incredible.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
I mean, I don't know.
Brad : where did the recipe come from?
Like, is this like something that,
that is like, stumbled onto it?
Or is this like a deeper, uh, thing?
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Not,
not a ton of of depth here.
My partner Megan, is a really
good cook and, um, I, I took a few
cues from her approach to soups
and, uh, so it's nothing fancy.
It just tastes really good.
Brad : Amazing.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Uh, yeah.
that's one of many things.
I've been doing a lot of
reading around just like how
to be happy in life, you know?
And, uh, this transitional moment
I think comes to a lot of folks,
you know, about my age with the
little gray and their beards.
and I think you start to think about,
your sort of value in the world and,
and like how do you, like what do
you want to be remembered for and
what do you want to be known for?
And.
I think I'm learning a lot about myself as
somebody who just wants to connect people.
You know, I just want people to like the,
the, I have so many amazing folks in my
life, in work and in my, you know, in my
social circles and my family, all of it.
And to just like, see them
connected in interesting ways.
And, um, that's, that's sort of where
my head has been lately and that's led
to all kinds of interesting things for
the last couple years, you know, so.
Brad : Yeah, so, so it's like you, you,
because you, for as long as I've known
you, you've always been connecting
people, but it sounds like it's emerged
as more of a, this is my mission.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah, I think I've
known that I liked to do that, but I
think I was always sort of, I don't
know, it was always secondary to what
I was doing, so I don't know if I would
say it's the, it's definitely not the
only thing I'm working on these days.
I mean, I still have my consultancy
and, and, you know, studio and all that.
But, it's definitely, it's taking up
more of my mental space and I think
I'm, I'm working hard to find ways to do
that between the things that I'm doing,
you know, to sort of earn a living.
I'm finding it so rewarding.
You know, it's just, I don't know.
It's just the little conversations
here and there, and you pick,
and you, you sense a pattern.
Oh my gosh.
I talked to two people who.
Both studied architecture and
now they're in design systems.
Those two people should talk
to each other, you know?
So it's just a little connection.
It's that just like little
stuff like that, you know?
Brad : Uh, that's beautiful.
you're describing something that, that
I'm going through right now as well,
where there are these things that are
these kind of almost secondary activities.
Do the things that we do to earn
a living or to make money that end
up being the real mission, right?
Like, it's, it's, like, oh yeah.
Like I really like web design.
I really like making websites and
like, oh, I got this opportunity to
like, talk about it in this place,
or, or fair or teach, uh, in some way.
And that was nice and that was fun.
Now back to our regularly scheduled
programming of making websites.
And whenever you, you flip that you're
like, oh, the reason why Oh, okay.
Like, and you start directing
your attention more at
that, the, the deeper why.
That's a really wild place to be.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: It is, the
word I keep using is rewarding.
I think it's like,
I, I keep coming away from those
interactions, just like feeling a
little bit overwhelmed with gratitude.
You know?
It's like, and I that does that.
I mean, I love making stuff on
the web as you know, like you
and I both been doing this for.
A, a long time and, and I still get, and I
saw you post recently on LinkedIn, I like
to make websites or something like that.
And I was like, yes, I do.
You know?
And, um, and I'm, and I'm, um,
I'm doing that still in my own
space, you know, for my own stuff.
And I just, I love it.
it's not quite the same, you know,
it's just not as, um, I don't know.
I don't know how, I dunno
how else to explain it.
Um, and part of that for me, I think has
been a, a not only the sort of connecting
in the way that I was describing earlier,
but also like with the intent or with
like, it sort of like soaked in curiosity,
you know, like, um, like, like learning
through the connection, you know.
And so the, um, the, the most
tangible example I have of this is.
Like, we started doing these surveys a
long time ago around design systems and
at Sparkbox we did a bunch of those.
Um, part of what was really cool about
that is that we asked them one question
at the end of all of those that was,
is it okay if we reach out to you to
talk if we have like further questions?
Like you said something
interesting and we want to dig in.
And everybody would say, of
course, it's totally okay.
And so then I had this group of
people who were like, they cared about
something I cared about professionally,
and they just gave me permission to
let's have a conversation, you know?
And so it started me down this path
of, you know, just like digging in and
talking to so many people in the same
space, hearing the stories of like, sort
of like wild origin stories of folks in
our space who come to it from everything
from like music to biology, to writing
and like, it's incredible, you know?
And so all of that just kept growing
and evolving, turned into this
sort of collaborative learning
thing that I'm trying to do.
And that's, you know, the
question, I think you've, you've
been on Brad as a co-host.
Where we just ask the community
something and then we dig
into it together, you know?
And it's, it takes so much of the
pretense away from the industry where
it's like, I go to an event and all
these people are up on this stage.
They must be so good at this.
Or experts or whatever.
When in reality, the, the, the reality has
always been that like, you know, you're
very good at this, but so are so many of
those people sitting in those seats who
have paid money to come and hear you.
You know?
And this, I feel that, you know, so
it's like a, I love it in that way.
And those, those people have become such
strong connections for me now, you know?
And um, so I think it's all
sort of like folding into
itself in weird ways, you know?
Brad : That's that's beautiful.
what's.
Interesting is that not necessarily
your head and shoulders above
anyone else from a, uh, brass tack.
It's like when you realize that the,
your ability to make those connections
and to cultivate the community,
that's the, that's the talent.
And not everyone actually
is, is wired for that.
Right.
And
Ben-jamin' Callahan: That's true.
Brad : I think like a really cool thing
is like you, you see differential and
you're using your power and your influence
and your energy equalize that and to
do it in a way that is, uh, curiosity
led, humility led, community led.
Like that's, that's pretty freaking cool.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
I never, I ne Brad, that's so, that's
such an interesting, I've never
thought about it like that, like the
power dynamic side to it, you know?
Um.
That's like, I need to,
I need to process that.
Brad : you're, yeah.
You're an, you're an amazing facilitator.
And I think that that's
what like facilitators do
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Hmm.
Brad : that, you know, and I'll admit
that I'm quite bad at it just because
I'm very talkative, uh, where I have a,
I have a hard time, you know, just like
hitting pause and, and creating space.
Like you're, you're more like chill
I think you just kind of naturally
create like the space for, for other
people to do, but you're framing for
everything has always been this way of
kind of getting a conversation going.
You're helping people
feel psychologically safe.
You are, you are sort of, again,
sort of picking at things with
like a, a curiosity, uh, you
know, that you're just describing.
And when people are in those
positions and they're not in
those positions often, right.
I think it's, that's important to say.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Mm.
Brad : So the fact that you're able
to design a conversation or now even
more in, in more of a formal capacity
design, like an actual environment
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Mm-hmm.
Brad : place for people to have
those kinds of conversations.
Really cool.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : cool.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah, that's,
that's a really, that's a nice sort
of way of, of viewing it, Brad.
I love that.
and it makes me feel
even more sort of like.
Responsibility for the work.
You know,
Brad : Mm-hmm.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: like when it's framed
in that way of like, you know, balancing
the powers and you know, sort of creating
more spaces that are, that are actually
safe and equitable and all that, you know?
And especially in our culture, you know,
with things that are being dismantled
even as we speak right now, you know?
So to sort of stand for that I
think is really, really important.
Brad : let's talk about that further,
because I think that this is, that's
like one of the biggest drivers of
why I put this, why I felt compelled
to make something like this.
what's playing out in the world right
now safe to say it's not healthy.
Even the people who are like, you
know, rooting for it, it's, it's
like, I don't think anybody's
like, oh yeah, like this is.
Everything's totally
fine and, and whatever.
there's this interesting thing that I've
been picking at for a while and I, is
a big driver for this show altogether,
is that there are people I see out
there that are doing types of things
that you are doing and that I think
a lot of the other guests are, are
doing, is, despite all of this, there's
an urgency and a mission to counter
that, not by countering it directly,
but by forward with love and
positivity and optimism and hope and in
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : those things.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: I think it's
interesting 'cause I, I haven't
thought of it as like an act of
resistance, you know, like, I've
been moving down this path for years.
I can, I can look now and see that, you
know, um, so even before some of the
more current stuff has been happening
politically here in the states, I
think I was moving on this path.
Brad : Yeah.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: but.
I will say that a lot of the feedback that
I've gotten from folks, um, like through
the, the question or for some of the
other little, um, things that I've tried
to facilitate in that capacity, are it,
it is interesting 'cause it's everybody
acknowledges that they're learning a ton.
Their perspective is being
broadened on the subjects that
we are discussing in all of that.
Um, they, they talk about how their
careers, they're, they're in a much
better place from their careers.
Like all kinds of really
good stuff, you know?
But the thing that is consistent
is that the space feels like a
place where they belong, you know?
And I think that's like so simple,
but it's missing from so much of our
industry and our lives, you know?
And so I think that's what
has really driven it for me.
You know, it's like hearing that
kind of thing is like, okay, I,
I feel like I got lucky early on.
Just sort of like lucked into
creating a space that was, you know.
People felt comfortable in.
But now how can I be more
intentional with that?
You know, how can I like take that,
what's worked, what's not, adjust,
iterate, move through it, you know?
Um, so I'm reading this book now actually.
Um, Aaron Ani recommended it to me.
It's called Get Together,
it's on Building Community.
Have you read this or it's
something you're familiar with.
Okay.
It's on building community.
And like, one of the things they talk
about in there is that you don't, like,
a lot of people try to start communities
in some way by creating the community.
and this book is all about
like actually know, you have
to like let go a little bit.
You have to let the
community create itself.
And so that's not quite how they say
it, but that's essentially the gist
of it, you know, and I think that's
interesting for me as like a business
person, you know, who's like lived.
16 plus years of trying running companies,
trying to like create something of value
there to sort of like move into this
model where it's very different and it's
kind of like hands off a little bit and
it's just like, get the right people in
the right space and the let it merge.
You know what I mean?
Brad : yes.
in the process I think, of
writing in or wrapping up a book,
people are like, oh, like.
How do you figure out what to write about?
It's like, it, for these things
to happen from the ground up.
You don't go, uh, I'm going to write
about, uh, that and then like, go
from scratch and, and, and, and then
like, because that's, that's hollow.
It's inorganic, right?
So it's like, it's the, it's the,
the organic growth of things.
you're not trying to like.
Have you and your ego center stage or
to create this, this rigid boundary and
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : of it, but rather to just
kind of say, here's a cool thing.
Show up and you'll
probably have a good time.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
This is so,
Brad : better for it.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
this is so interesting, Brad.
When I first started, started my
first company, it was called Forge.
This is like a precursor to Sparkbox.
I remember sitting down with my
partners at the time and we were like,
okay, it's a company and companies
have missions, visions, and values.
So, you know, I think in about two or
three hours we came up with all, all of
those and we wrote 'em out in a little
Google Doc, and then we kinda just, it
just sort of disappeared and we just went
on about our days and I remember thinking
like, I know we have to have these things,
but I don't, I didn't like, I think at
that time I just wasn't mature enough to
understand like why they actually mattered
or how they would play out in any way.
But I would say the thing I've learned,
one of the things I've learned over the
last, you know, over the decade and a
half, two decades of doing that work
is I. Values actually really matter.
and most people don't even know
what their own values are, you know?
And so like, understanding
what you personally believe,
you know, um, I think matters.
And for me, I've done a, I've,
I've thought about that a lot.
And so the communities that I'm trying to
create, the spaces I'm trying to create,
they're all, they all have that in common,
which is, they're just, it's me sort
of like saying like, in a more public
way, these are the things I believe.
Brad : yeah.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: And I, if you
believe those things come jump in.
You know?
And what that does is it like,
you know, it has that sort of
polarizing effect where it's like,
okay, I don't believe that I'm not
going to that meeting, you know?
Or holy crap, I've been looking
for someone else who believes
that, let me be a part of that.
And now there's like an eagerness and, and
there's sort of like, the values are the,
the, the constraint in some way, you know?
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Brad : A hundred, a hundred percent.
You, again, just like you're, you're
creating the, the vessel that, like the
values are the, are, are your boundaries
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : that don't agree with that aren't
going to like, cross that, that threshold.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : have you done like
exercises or, things around your,
like, kind of personal values?
or what things have
you found to be helpful
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Yeah.
I, so I just have my own
little process that I use.
I do this maybe once a year,
sometimes twice if there's
like a big change in life.
But, I, I do this little exercise where
I, I basically go back through my life.
I look back historically at my
life, because here's the thing
I learned about values is like,
it's one thing to like say stuff.
It's another thing to make decisions.
And I think values, especially in the
organizational context, they, they, they
rear their heads when things get hard.
And you can see, do the things that
they're deciding as leadership align with
the things they've been saying all along.
And when those things don't
align, that's, you know, that's,
that's where people feel.
Un unsafe, you know?
Um, so for me, like thinking about
that, I've, I just look back at
my life and I'll say like, okay, I
know I made a huge decision here.
I made this choice.
What was happening in my life?
Why did I make that choice?
What are the things that I believed
at that time that sort of led
me to make that big decision?
And so this is sort of like an aggregate
ex, you know, exercise where when,
when I make a big decision, I can kind
of look at that now and be like, why?
Okay, step stepping away from
that, you know, 30,000 foot view.
Why did I make that choice?
What, what are the things that I believe
now that sort of led me to that path?
So that's sort of how I
kind of manage this myself.
Um, and I have a, a small coaching
practice where I'm working with folks.
And a lot of the, a lot of it starts
with this because most people just
don't, they don't know, you know, they
just haven't taken the time to do it.
Um, and so when we do that, it's
like you get this like x-ray goggles
into the life of somebody, you
know, you can sort of see so much.
And it helps people to understand
why they enjoy the things they enjoy,
why they choose to do the things
they do, why they leave, the jobs
they leave, you know, all of that.
You know, it sort of exposes it.
I, I've gone through that exercise
as well for some of the community
spaces that I'm trying to create.
And the, there's a few of
these like values that always
rise to the surface for me.
One of those is stay in learning mode.
You know, I, this is like such a
simple thing to me, and you do this
wonderfully, Brad, every time I talk
to you, I can tell you're just like
thirsty for more, you know, you're
like, you know, insatiably curious.
And I feel like that for me, if, if I
just imagine like a, if our industry
could sort of reset, you know, we could
go back to sort of the beginning of
the days when you, when we were just
kind of getting the internet going.
And if we, instead of sort of like
approaching it with like, let me
teach you the things I've learned.
Let's approach it with like, Hey,
maybe you've got something from me.
To learn, you know,
like every interaction.
If it was always that, can you
just imagine how much healthier
it would feel, you know?
Brad : Yep.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: so that's like
a really foundational thing for me.
And, um, I, I, I try to take
that into every conversation I
have with apprentices, interns,
with, you know, executives and
clients, you know, all of it.
It's just like, what can I learn from you?
You know?
Brad : HVAC person
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : up to your house.
Like, that's my favorite
Ben-jamin' Callahan: I love it.
Brad : there's just like, oh yeah,
you're just here and you are,
you're up on my roof, my gutter.
What you got, man?
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah,
Brad : Like, I'm like, bring it on.
Like, tell me, tell me everything.
Tell me the crazy shit.
Tell
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah.
Brad : tell me like what you've
learned in 30 years of doing this.
Like,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Right?
dude, and I, I, I feel like as, as
people who, you and I both who, who
are passionate about design systems,
like one of the muscles that you have
to develop as a systems practitioner is
connecting the dots between things, right?
Like, when I change this, what happens?
Right?
Like the, the, the sort of like.
Field of interactions that all
happen and come from like, cause
and, you know, all that stuff, right?
So I, I think this exercise
of being curious and like, you
sort of the gutter guy, right?
Who's on your roof fixing stuff, the
things that this person has learned in
their 30 years of doing this, there's a
way to apply that to what you're doing
in, in whatever field you're in, you
know, and as systems people, I think it's
our job to exercise that muscle of like,
how do I draw a connection from that?
What can I do?
What can I take from this
that applies in my space?
You know?
And I think that's like a really
fun way to sort of like take those
scenarios and if you, if you're in
the mode of thinking where you have
to sort of also bring it back to
work, there's always a way to do that.
You know, it's fun.
Brad : can, you can turn that on.
increasingly I'll just, you know,
share just life stuff or whatever.
And of course, just by way of the, the,
the vessel that we're in that is LinkedIn,
all these people, you know, connecting
it to, you know, and, and here's how
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : that to, and,
and I'm like, I get it.
Like I get it and there are
lessons to be learned and like,
that's, that's good sometimes.
But I do feel like everything
has turned into that.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Hmm.
Brad : kind of like actively
fighting that stuff where it's
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : have hobbies, enjoy them.
Not to make yourself a better
worker, not to do whatever,
but like, because that is what.
Good and healthy life is, you
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : it's, it's, it's like, it's,
the things have become very, very
kind of transactional or like,
how can I utilize this thing?
But there is just this like, kind of
coming back to, I think what, what
you've been picking at and like, kind
of, I think, I feel like the, the
arc of this conversation here you've
been shipping away at all the layers.
Like starting with, okay, like, here's.
Technology.
Here's this like web stuff that we do.
And if you just kind of keep drilling,
you end up with a bunch of beings floating
on a rock all have hopes, fears, dreams,
qualities, tendencies, the duality of man,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Yeah.
Brad : do we, and what do we do with that?
And what do
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Y
Brad : that?
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah.
And it's like on one side, you
know, there's the person like I was
describing, who's taking the lessons
from the conversation with the gutter
guy and applying them in work and
with their kids and whatever else.
And then there's the severance
side, you know, the other end of
that, where it's like an absolute
wall of, of between, you know?
And I know that you're not that
far onto that spectrum, right?
Like the things you're learning in
life, you're, you do apply in your work.
I see you do it, you know, and vice versa.
So like, what's the right balance?
Like how do, where is it on that spectrum
that you are, are trying to to be?
Brad : Yeah, I, I think that, that
increasingly, and, and, and I, I think
that I'm, I'm hearing you sort of
pick at it too, where it's basically
like if you're able to design life in
a way that you are able to exercise
your full self and live your life
without any form of severance, that's
not to say like, I'm gonna take of my
hobbies and smush 'em into one ball.
But it's, I, I think that what
I've been doing a lot of work
on has been actively rejecting.
So I do this, which means I don't do
these other things once you sort of
yourself from these, these kind of
artificial boxes just kind of, uh, give
yourself permission to travel to where
your instincts and values take you,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : can end up in all sorts of things.
There's a dude at the Whole
Foods the overseer of the,
uh, self checkout, uh, sort
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Okay.
Brad : right?
Ben-jamin' Callahan:
Yeah, I know this guy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Brad : Right?
Right.
But this dude is different he is
playing a djembe, like he is playing
a hand drum at the Whole Foods.
He's got like the green
vest on and everything.
And this dude like, I, I can't remember
what country he was from originally,
but is somewhere in like West Africa
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : plays the djembe
and so everybody's in line.
And so of course, you know,
I have to talk to this guy,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : But like, I love
that, like that, that
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Mm-hmm.
Brad : so happy because it's like,
it's one of those things where he is
bringing joy to the, the many people.
Getting corralled through his little lane
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : and, and it's not hurting anything,
you know, far from it, you know, of
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : And, and I think that there's
just so many more opportunities
for people to be able to do that.
Whether, whether it's like a white
collar thing or an office thing, or
a virtual thing, or a just casual
interaction moving through life.
And that's, that's, that's the
kind of shit that turns me on.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: I love that.
Uh, that is something I've seen you
kind of embody in the world, you know,
like just sort of being very vocal about
these other things that you love, you
know, as much as you love the web, you
know, and, um, I think it's interesting
'cause I wonder how much of that is
actual for people and how much of that
is, um, sort of intentional in terms
of like, who they present to the world.
There's a gentleman who does a
podcast now, guy Siegel is his name
guy and he runs and it's, yeah.
And he does this amazing po I
dunno if you've been on there.
I was on in season one and he was
just like, tell design downtime.
He's like, tell me something that's
not at all about design, you know,
or about the web or whatever.
And I love this because it is
exposing to me just how deep down
the rabbit hole, so many other people
go just like me into these wild, you
know, exciting hobbies and stuff,
there's, we need more of that, right?
Like that's, that's a great
example maybe of, of us Yeah.
Doing that do,
Brad : That stuff is
that humanizing force.
And I feel like at this very,
like, increasingly kind of like
cold and and clinical world.
And I think that like one of the
interesting things and maybe like themes
that's, that's kind of emerging here.
And, and one thing that we didn't
put on the table quite yet, but the
backdrop, I think to all of this, right?
With covid happening within these
last five years, I feel like we need
to be reminded that humanity exists.
we have gotten used to
talking to people in boxes,
you know, this like, for
like client travel and stuff.
We used to do that shit all the time.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: the time.
Yeah.
Brad : you would, you'd
have your meetings, but then
what, what would you do?
You'd go out
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Go get.
Brad : You
Ben-jamin' Callahan: That's right.
Brad : right?
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yep.
Brad : And it's like, fuck, we lost that.
Like,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah,
Brad : that in a big way.
so, so I, I do feel like the
work that you're doing giving
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
Brad : pulse spec and that's very
necessary and very needed right now.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah.
I'll tell you what,
it's easy to forget it.
I, I, I literally, moments before
we jumped on was, uh, the sort of
like, all Redwoods call for this
community, and it was the first one.
This is our first week sort of
being sort of officially open.
And so we, I. We, we, we did,
we wrapped up this call and I,
you know, it went, it went well.
It's always like, the first call's
always like, I don't know these people.
You know, it's, it was a little bit
of awkwardness, but it was great.
Um, and I have a small group of people
called the Redwood Rangers who are like,
folks that are like helping kind of
facilitate and just like being present
and modeling those values and all that.
And right away in the Ranger channel
in Discord where we were hanging out,
somebody was like, that was great,
but it felt, it feels like we needed,
we need more like, just space for
people just to like chat and hang out.
And it's so true.
'cause I, I look back at that meeting now
just an hour ago, and I, I was like, all
business, you know, I was like, we gotta
get all, I gotta share all these things.
I'm like, all this stuff, we
gotta talk about the admin
stuff, the tools and all of it.
And I was just, you know, like even
me, somebody who's like, I love
this stuff, you know, I just, it
just was out the door, you know?
So, so it's a really good
reminder, you know, to, to like let
people just be people, you know.
Brad : But, and, and, and, and
what that translates to is we have
to spend more time with people.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Right.
Brad : and that's something that,
you know, we both do a lot of
work around collaboration and
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Mm-hmm.
Brad : that and stuff.
that's how those things tend to go,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : like, okay, we
got, we got 45 minutes.
Like, let's, we gotta like
make some, some calls.
We gotta come to these decisions.
And when you think about, you know, some
of the most collaborative experiences
you've had, be, it's when you are.
with each other for a few
days or, or, or longer.
Like, you know, I think about
like my, my college band, right?
We're all like living together.
So it's just like there's plenty
of space to just kind of be
just humans around each other.
And then like, eventually you write some
songs or you produce some stuff and you
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : and, it's like, yeah, that
everything has been put into these boxes.
Like that.
Yeah.
Rejecting boxes has been
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yes.
Brad : a freaking theme of, of,
of like my, it's like you see,
I mean, the Gantt charts, right?
The Gantt charts, the, the ticket
boards, the, all the stuff.
It's like this shit's supposed
to be creative work, you know?
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah,
Brad : And it's like, it's heartbreaking.
It's heartbreaking.
So, so it's
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
Brad : boxes, like across the board,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: you're right, these,
this is like a topic and in like in our
specific industry, it, it rears its head
with like designer, developer, handoff.
You know, this just like always
comes up, you know, it's like for.
Two decades, I've been hearing
people complain about it, you know,
and we get a new tool and it's
like, oh, this is gonna fix it.
And of course, the tool
doesn't fix it, right?
It's like you just put these two people
in a room, let 'em figure it out.
Like it's not, I mean, I don't understand
why it's so hard, you know, just put
them together, let them figure it out.
That's, that's how it happens, you know?
And, and, and it's hard.
I think the challenge, of course
is like, business is about scale.
And so it's like, how do we do that
when we have, you know, 500 designers
and 1500, you know, developers
or whatever it is, you know?
So, yeah.
Well, whatever.
I don't know.
Brad : I think that the,
the real human work.
You are doing and reminding people of, and
sort of creating these, these outlets and
these opportunities for people to connect,
will go back into their box filled worlds
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : with a greater
appreciation of that stuff.
Right?
That if you are
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah,
Brad : get together if they walk away
from that going, was good, that, that
felt good, that was a positive thing,
that was healthy, that was whatever,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
Brad : there's, they're now inspired
to say, okay, well maybe, maybe I
do that rather than our next boring
ass, uh, standup or whatever.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah.
Brad : Like maybe we at least just
put some form of pulse into it.
And whenever you like, reframe it
where it's like, here's this person,
this living being that has emotions,
that has, you know, hobbies, that has
interests, that has like perspectives,
that has, uh, all of these things.
It, operate fundamentally differently,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
Brad : But there's been this flattening
the, the corollaries between the
AI conversation and the political
conversation has been, I've, I've
been like coming back to that
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Hmm.
Brad : again.
we are not giving ourselves nearly enough
credit or, or, or seeing ourselves for
the multi-dimensional and, know, valuable
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : We are like, not
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah,
Brad : not just our
community, not just our tribe.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
Brad : everyone writ large.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah.
No, I, I totally agree.
I think there's a pendulum that swings
in the, at least in the, in sort of
like the business world around this.
You know, it's like we go through
seasons where the sort of in way to run
a company is we get to know each other,
we hang out, you know, it's like chill.
And I know all these people, I know their
families, I know their kiddos, and, and
now we can do better work together, which
is a hundred percent true because I know
these people, you know, that comes with.
Its own set of challenges, but the other
side of the spectrum is, no, no, no, no.
We are not your family.
You come here, you check in,
you do your work, you go home.
And there's like a weird health
to that too, which is like, I, you
know, like this isn't my family.
And I, I do have a whole community
of people home waiting for me to be
there to sort of interact with and
pour into and grow from, you know?
this is a, I feel this is a pendulum.
It's gone back and forth two
or three times since I've been,
had, since I've had a company.
And, you know, the, the each side presents
really hard challenges and it's hard
to keep the pendulum from swinging so
far that it reaches the unhealthy edge.
You know what I'm saying?
Brad : Yep.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: like, I don't know.
So I'm not sure how we sort of create
the right balance, you know, in that,
Brad : it's the values because,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah.
Brad : values of we're all family
here, and you use that to manipulate
people and guilt them into
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Right.
Brad : with people and the people
that have to go pick up their
kids or suddenly like at a,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah,
Brad : like, that's it.
So it's like, it, it has
to be born from that.
Like, we are doing these types of
things so that we can, you know,
create a healthier environment,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
Brad : create like all
of the values that, that
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
Brad : And same goes with the, the other
end of the, of the, the spectrum where
it's just like, oh yeah, it is healthy for
you to spend more time with your family.
And we are
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Right.
Brad : to, hold you hostage here.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah.
That's, that's, that's it, man.
Brad : how have your priorities changed?
and just like, when are you
kicked off the conversation?
It's sort of like starting to like
take that, that kind of, you're,
you're at this moment of talking
about more like legacy stuff
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : like, like this, this season of
life is, is not necessarily that, uh.
Bright eyed and bushy tailed, uh,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: I.
Brad : But, but there's, there's
also, I'm, I'm hearing like a lot of
like, enthusiasm, for this chapter.
So, how are you like thinking
about this chapter for you
Ben-jamin' Callahan: I think
changes in somebody's trajectory.
You used the word trajectory.
You've been on this trajectory, you
said, you know, and I, I, I think
I have been, you know, and in some
respects, I think I've kind of, for.
12 years of the last 16 kind of just
had my head down, you know, and just
like doing the things I knew I needed
to do to keep that trajectory, you
know, in, in the right direction.
Um, and I think like hard things happen
in your life and it sort of forces you
out of that zombie mode, you know, of
just one foot in front of the other.
And I know you know, this, you know,
and those experiences I think, sort of
shock you into like, observation around
you and like questioning, you know?
Um, and I think that's sort of my story,
you know, like hard stuff happens.
You, I had to just pause for a moment
and, and like reevaluate the things
that are actually important to me,
I think with that pers perspective,
I was able to now that perspective
and a whole lot of privilege, man.
Like, I'm, I'm so fortunate because my.
Role in my company is such that it's
my job to just be present in the
industry, to get to know people,
to talk to folks, to, to write, to
research, to think, you know, and take
all of that and synthesize it down into
something meaningful for our customers.
You know, so,
Brad : Yep.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: so I, I'm
really fortunate that I, that,
that there, there's a little bit
of alignment, o overlap in the
things that I love, you know?
but I think it has made me sort of realize
that it, the most important thing I can
do is to connect with folks, you know?
And it's, and it's my kids,
you know, it's my partner.
It's, of course people in the industry,
like friends that I've made through
technology like you and so many others.
And, and so I think it's like, I
don't know, I, I, that's sort of
for me is like the story at least.
And right now I'm focused on, on
like, like the community side of
things, just like really building.
Really good, engaging community, and I
want that to be a place where we give
back to the larger community, you know?
So I'm super excited about the sort
of loose structure to that and, you
know, giving folks an opportunity to
kind of grow in their ability to share
those things and to articulate things
and to have peers to have like real
critique with, and, and, you know, iron
sharpens iron kind of conversations
and challenging each other in that way.
And, um, honestly, it's just like
celebrating, you know, each other when
we do something great, you know, like,
I mean, there's, there's, I dunno.
There's so much there.
So, yeah.
Brad : that's amazing.
You brought, you brought something up that
I think I, I specifically wanted to talk
with you about, and you, you just used
the word caring, which is something that
I think that we know really intimately,
but a lot of people don't, right.
we who help create the web most
intimately know the real power that
comes with sharing and collaboration
community at this like very
like kind of, very large scale,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah, that's right.
Brad : large scale.
could you just talk about like what,
what are your thoughts on like, on, on
sharing as it relates to, your past,
present, and future, but also like through
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Hmm.
Brad : lenses of, of values
and, and community and.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah,
Brad : Yeah.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: I mean,
it's so funny like that.
You're right.
This, this space is unique.
We're, we're, we're like,
and we don't even see it.
I think you're right.
Like if you're in, if you work on the
web, it is just a part of your life.
You know?
It's just.
You really do take it for granted.
I remember sitting down there was
a Thai restaurant downtown here,
and I remember meeting our lawyer
there when we first got started.
I dunno if you remember this, but
we did this series of workshops
called the Build Right Workshops or
something, and the ma Maker series.
And
Brad : Yeah.
Yeah.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: you do.
Those were, those were good shirts.
But um, yeah, I, what was so funny
is we sat down with him because we
were like, Hey, we need to like get
a contract together because we are
gonna go do these workshops with
these in these cities or whatever.
And he was like, wait, wait, wait.
Hold on, hold on.
This is our lawyer.
He's like, you're telling me that the
thing you're really uniquely positioned
to do in the industry, you're gonna
just go teach other people how to do it?
And I was like, yeah.
And he's like, why would you do that?
I'm like, you don't understand, you know?
And then I just pulled up and open a
browser and I just went view source.
And I was like, look, it's there.
You can just, you can go see it.
It's all there, you know?
And he was like, oh.
Yeah.
Okay.
You know, so I mean, that's
the root of it, you know, and I
think from the very beginning.
Uh, at least for me, that has been
like, just something that I love.
I love to teach, I love to collaborate.
I love the, the, just the idea that you
could sort of see, see something you've
learned, give somebody else a little
shortcut, you know, like a little bit.
Oh my gosh.
You know?
That's great.
I, it's funny 'cause I was just, you
know, when I talk with my team about
this, like, one of the things we've
done for a long time at Sparkbox is
that everybody writes, you know, we have
a, a blog and um, a lot of companies.
You know, they, they sort
of like hire out writing.
They, they, you know, they sub
that out to something else.
These days, AI is doing it for them.
We've never really done that.
It's always just been like, what
did we learn in the last month?
Write about that.
You know?
And I think that the number one piece
of feedback I've gotten from folks is,
I don't have anything to, to share.
You know?
And, and I'm like, it's okay.
Hold on.
You know, and like my, I I, it took
me a while to sort of like reframe
this, but my simple explanation to
them is that I think about it like
just literally like a link of chains.
Yeah.
There's somebody further along.
There's definitely
somebody smarter than you.
There's somebody smarter than me and
there's somebody a little further behind.
And it's actually really hard for
those two to learn from each other.
They need that piece in between, like we
have to sort of learn in progression, and
that means everybody has a responsibility
to be sharing the things they're learning.
And so that's sort of my
general perspective on it.
And.
It takes away the imposter syndrome
a little bit because it's like, yeah,
I'm not trying to impress, you know,
whoever is the genius doing this in
the industry for 50 years or whatever.
I'm just trying to help the
person who's a little bit further
behind make take the next step.
You know?
That's such a healthy perspective on it,
Brad : I, I love, I love that
that metaphor of the links.
whenever we talk ourselves out of that
is, is this, like, people are like,
oh, well, those other links exist.
Well,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Hmm.
Brad : people don't know that that exists.
And guess
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : There's this thing called a,
a, a hyperlink that you can, that
you can wire that thing up and then
literally connect the links together.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yes.
Brad : It's like, sure, it's
that, but it's also just,
it's, it's human expression.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah,
Brad : And that human expression
can only come from that individual
with their specific atoms, their
specific life trajectory, their
specific experience, their, their
specific tone of voice and so on.
again, we, we, we put ourselves into
these boxes or we like flatten this stuff
into, it's like, oh, well what's the
valuable key takeaway from this thing?
And it's like,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
Brad : don't get me wrong, the, the, the
key takeaway can be helpful, but you can
also just tell a story and you can just
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
Brad : story.
And I can't believe we've been
this far into the conversation and
haven't talked about music yet.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: ah, yes.
Brad : about music as it relates
to what we've been talking about or
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah, yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
I think, you know, for the early part
of my life it was, it was, uh, it
consumed me, you know, in my early
days and I, there was a time when I
imagined I would just be a musician.
I don't know if There's this choral group.
It's called Chante Clear, I don't
even know how to explain it.
It's like 12 male singers, but it is, you
know, the full range because they have men
who can sing in these incredible falsettos
and they have the deepest, richest bass,
and it is like nothing you've ever heard.
And they, they go to these incredible,
you know, venues, these cathedrals
with the best sound, and they record
just this music that like changes
you from the inside out, you know?
Um, and I, I, I was into that
kind of music for a long time.
I was in those groups.
I was, I was not that level of
group, but in, in university
settings and that kind of thing.
Um, and I. And I, so it was just like a
part of like, you know, every day for me.
And, and then I, I kind of was
learning a lot of other instruments
at the same time as I was so
focused in, you know, in that space.
And so these days, you know, I I, I have
really nice little mid-century piano here
around the corner that I play quite a bit.
And then I, I got my mandolin here, which
I have been working on for a while now.
Um, it was fun to kinda to see Jeremy
Keith rocking it out at Frosted
Palooza Chris and all the other
Bluegrassers there, you know, so,
so fun, you know?
So I think it's like, for me now, um, you
know, it's, it's not that I ever see that,
um, I'll be some professional musician
like I think I dreamed about when I was
young, but it has just, it is just a.
It's sort of like, um, it's, it's right.
My mandolins right here because it's so
easy to just, like, I can turn my chair,
I can step away from the screen for 15
minutes and just, and it's like, uh, like
loosens things up in my brain, you know?
Like it lets me, and
there's something to this.
I know other people have
other ways of doing it.
I was reading about this mathematician
who he used to, um, he would lay down and
sort of like half fall asleep and that's
when he would sort of be able to like,
work through the problems, you know?
But it was like this weird
sort of InBetween state.
It was almost like a
meditation, but not sleep.
I don't even know,
Brad : Yeah.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: that's sort of
what happens for me with music, you
know, it's like a little bit, it's
consuming enough that I can't focus
on the problem I was trying to solve
and it releases something else.
You know, the, the, the, the solutions
I come up with, there are much more.
Um, sort of all like well-rounded
or something, you know, as opposed
to focus, like, just fix the thing.
It's like a bigger, I don't
know how to explain it.
Brad : I think that you're
explaining it very well, and I,
and I bet that if you were to just
like have an FMRI of your brain,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yes.
Brad : like that would
explain it perfectly.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah, I'll bet.
I'll bet it would.
Yeah.
Brad : you fell into music early
and like specifically this way
that, that feels very spiritual.
Like Right, right out of
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : right out of the gate.
Like it, like with that.
This male choral group in a big
cathedral, the output of that is, is
such a soul level moving thing that you
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah.
Brad : seem to seem to understand.
It's, it's power and gravity.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: there's nothing,
like, I know you know this, 'cause I've
seen you, I've seen it happen to you.
But when you're playing in a band with a
group of people who are all also in that
sort of like zone, that groove, there is
something that happens where it's, I don't
even know how to express that feeling.
It is such a unique experience and like
with a choral group, whether it's, it's
acapella and there's no instrumentation.
I don't know, for me, like that was like
almost like in like a purist form where
it was just like, we don't even have,
it's just what we can create organically.
And like hearing your voice in such
beautiful collaboration with other
voices and I mean, it's like, it
literally is like, it's unbelievable.
I don't know how to ex
explain that, you know?
yeah.
Yeah.
Brad : if you, if you want.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Right.
The universe.
Brad : It is.
Yeah.
It's, it's, I think that what
it exposes is that it's like
we are, separate but not right.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : is.
We are all one.
We are actually like literally
all of like the same stuff.
Um, we happen to be moving around in
these different biological bodies,
when you are able to connect and
not just like, oh yeah, like we,
like we had a good conversation.
you're describing is this like pure
presence and synchronicity, and, and
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah,
Brad : you are, you are
operating as one unit
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah.
Brad : and, and there are
different vehicles for that, right?
Like
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Totally.
Brad : who describe like, you know,
like whatever, like team, team sports
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : you know, militaries and like, like
other things, like there's these things
wherever you, you are all fully present.
You are
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Hmm.
Brad : that you are doing this activity,
uh, totally concurrently with other
people and you're locked in and you're
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah,
Brad : as one that is
such a potent reminder.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
Brad : Of the, the deeper truth that that
is true for, for literally everything, for
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah.
Brad : the world, for the universe,
for, for all of that is like, and, and
that's why music is so powerful and,
and it, this is the beautiful thing.
So it's like as music creators, whether
it's with your voice or through an
instrument, get that experience, that
real sort of special experience that
comes from, oh yeah, you're all locked in
and you're producing something together.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : What's even cooler is
that that gets extended to just
the people who are listening.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : whenever you are able
to create true presence for the
people producing and listening
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yes.
Brad : the music, and you are all
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : is all one entity.
Sure some people are doing
it, some people aren't.
Not everybody in the crowd is, you know,
somebody's checking their phone and
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Mm-hmm.
Brad : when you reach that like
kind of critical mass where
there's like a crowd of people and
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : like actually
present and listening,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Oh yeah.
Brad : is, it is one of the most powerful
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : things that I think
people can experience.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah, I'm
sure you know Jacob Collier, right?
The musician.
This kid is unreal.
I mean, uh, clearly an amazing
musician, but he does this thing
where he gets you as an audience to
participate, and he's got an album
out where he is got like recorded.
He's recorded voices from every
continent, and he's using the samples
them and uses them in his records.
And it's just such a
unifying approach to music.
I am like, delighted every time I
get to see him, you know, and, and
before him, Bobby McFaren was doing
this wild stuff with the audience.
Like, I mean, it's just, there's like
a legacy there of like people who have
to somehow tuned into that, you know?
And you're right, it does
connect you to something bigger.
I'm, I'm reading, I'm super, like
right now I'm reading a bunch of like
philosophy stuff, just like weird.
I don't know why, but I kind
of got sent down this path.
A friend of mine sent me a book.
And anyway, I've been reading about
the philosophy of consciousness
and how, like there's all these
different ideas about, what is it?
'cause nobody actually really knows,
you know, like, and there's like a,
a group of people who are like, yeah,
it's just like you put the atoms in
the right position and then there's
enough processing in the brain that
boom, you know, consciousness emerges.
And I'm just like, okay.
And then there's this other idea of like,
we are transducers, like we are an a radio
antenna and consciousness is in the world,
and we just get a chance to tune into it.
I love that as like a, the metaphor
for me, I don't know if that's
true or not, but it, those kinds of
experiences make me feel like I'm
tuning into something much bigger.
You know, that's, that's what
it, that's part of it for me.
I think, you know?
Brad : that's beautiful.
I like to think of what we're
doing now is a bit like operating
in the visible light spectrum,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Hmm.
Brad : here's the colors of the rainbow
and we see them and we know them to be
true because we can see them, right?
But we also know that all of these
other wave forwards exist, right.
X-rays, gamma rays, you know, and so on.
when you pick at that stuff and you
start talking about like energy and
you start talking about frequency
and things, start talking about
consciousness and all of that stuff.
It, it gets, gets into
like weird territory pretty
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Yeah,
Brad : but like I as just whatever
rational person I like come back.
I was like, okay, energy can
neither be created nor destroyed.
Like,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: right.
Brad : there's all this stuff, but, but
we experientially feel, I. to something we
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : to nature when we're walking in
the woods or when we're hiking a mountain
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Right.
Brad : the grandeur of nature.
Like, it is not, that's not pretend.
Like it is something that we,
we actually like experience.
Right?
And
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : is the same thing.
That chill that goes up
your spine or whatever.
Or people, you know,
sitting in a pew in church.
And
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Right.
Brad : the, the music and the
pipe organ and the, and the every,
like, these are real things.
These are not like pipe dreams.
Uh, these are actual phenomenon
that like, that happen
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Mm-hmm.
Brad : world and in the universe.
And, and, and I think that it's,
it's fascinating and I don't know,
like if you pick at it deeply
enough, that is like where it like
kind of crosses over into like.
You know, the, the, you, you can put
like a supernatural lens to that,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Sure.
Brad : even know if you,
you need to, and that's
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : where, that's where like,
like the Carl Sagans of the world.
I like
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Right.
Brad : I've always like dig
him because it's like, yeah.
I mean, sure those are interesting
questions that like, and we should
pursue them, but also don't necessarily
need to have that like, supernatural
thing to just understand that it's
like we all came from the same stuff.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah,
Brad : look at the stars and just
be totally blown away by just
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
Brad : and, and amazing
reality that we all inhabit.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
And it's only weird because we
don't understand it, you know?
It's like, yeah, of course.
It's weird.
Like everything that's new starts
off weird until you understand it.
Brad : yeah.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: So it's
like, I, I used to be really like
very sort of black and white.
It's like, no, I'm not gonna, I don't
believe any of that sort of like weird
fruey stuff, whatever it is, you know?
Woo woo.
But I, that's not how
I perceive it anymore.
I think I'm just, there's
like an openness in me now.
It's just maybe my age or something.
And it's not that I like believe
everything I read or see, but I
think I just am like, okay with
not knowing, you know what I mean?
Like, there's a whole lot of things I
know I will never fully understand and
that's actually okay for me, you know?
Brad : Yeah, think, I think
that that's like a real sign
of, of, of health and, and
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : 'cause I mean, and, and we
kind of know this, like, kind of like
bringing this like back to earth a
little bit, where like with every,
you know, project or every client or
every like thing or every experience,
like, when you go into something
going, oh, I know how this is gonna go.
You always find yourself surprised, right?
So it's like over time you learn
to say, yeah, I don't know, like,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : know, is, is this the right
call or is this not the right call?
Yeah, I don't know.
I'm gonna have to learn more and we're
going to have to like dig, you know?
So it's just
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : we've kind of conditioned
ourselves over a couple decades, I
feel like, to, more comfortable with
being uncomfortable and not knowing the
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : And I think that that, that applies
to, to many things in life because I love
it, is kind of coming back to your values.
It's like so long as you keep that the
curiosity, you know, for a fact that
you're not going to pick at the nature
of consciousness because you're a curious
guy, you're going to arrive at the answer
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah,
Brad : the end of your life.
Like,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: right.
Brad : that's not going to
Ben-jamin' Callahan: That's right.
Brad : and if you do,
congratulations, Ben.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : music is so powerful to
me because it forces presence.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : when it, it, it is like a
really amazing vehicle for creating
that connection in, in a way that's,
that's more difficult to do just by
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Oh yeah,
Brad : pay attention right now, or
Let's all think about the same thing.
It's
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
Brad : just, it, like it really does
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
Brad : you in the face.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: yeah,
There's a synchronicity that's
required for that, you know?
Whereas we talk about co-creation in
our space, which is also, I think, a
powerful way to connect with people.
But it often happens asynchronously.
And in music it's, it's much more
these days with tech, you can
do some of that, but like, it's
much more like in the moment we
have to do it together, you know?
And that's, there's, I love that.
There's nothing, nothing better.
Brad : No, there really isn't.
the only other structured question
on the show is, what music would
you like more people to know about?
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah, I mean,
so the two that I mentioned so
far, ch clear, I'll get you a link.
Um, I, it doesn't matter if you're a
spiritual person or not, but if you
listen to their recording of BLEs Ave
Maria, that will, uh, oh my gosh, man, it
is like, we talked about Jacob Collier.
Um, he, this kid is unreal.
Like musically, he just.
Brad : He
Ben-jamin' Callahan: And I don't
even know how to explain him.
Like he can play every instrument.
He can sing like mad.
He's just got such a collaborative
creative spirit and it, it adds like
this other layer to his work and
it's just so, just look him up on
Instagram or something and find him.
And he's incredible.
Brad : better yet if
you're able to see 'em
Ben-jamin' Callahan: oh gosh.
Yeah.
Brad : because there, there, there's
definitely stuff lost in translation.
But what me and, and Ian
and our sister went to go
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Did you,
Brad : and I've been like four rows
back at a Radiohead concert, which was
Ben-jamin' Callahan: that's
Brad : you
Ben-jamin' Callahan: so funny.
Brad : the, the best
concert I've ever been to.
But like, but I came away from not
going like, I think that I, can't
obviously compare, but I was like, that
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : easily one of the best
musical things I've ever seen in
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : life.
' that deeper level that we've been like,
sort of talking about brings everybody in.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: He does.
Yeah.
Brad : and it's just, just something,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Well, it's so ironic that you mentioned
Radiohead, because that's what I was
actually gonna suggest for my third.
I am on a Radiohead revisit now.
I've been going back through all
the old records because I saw that
they may be starting a tour again,
and I'm like, if that's happening,
I'm finding a way as I've never seen
them live, and oh gosh, dude, so.
That for sure if people are not
Brad : chronologically?
Ben-jamin' Callahan: No, I, I started
going, I started where I, I kind
of like, was like, what are the
records that I really, really love?
I'm just gonna start there.
And then I've been making my kids
listen and, which is super fun, you
know, like when we're cooking, we're
gonna listen to some Radiohead.
and then I've just started, there's a,
there's a few albums of theirs that I
actually didn't even know existed, you
know, so like, there's parts of the
catalog for me that are just empty.
So I'm just now starting
to touch on some of those.
So, oh my gosh, man, it's such good stuff.
It's like, and I'm trying to figure
out how do I play mandolin to, to
this stuff, you know, it's like so fun
to just figure out how to, and this,
that's the cool thing about Radiohead.
I feel like you could put
any instrument in there.
You really could.
It's, there's something universal
about their music, you know?
Brad : any track either like an
old favorite or one from like
some of the, the new things that
you're like, Ooh, I, that's,
I say that because I'm, I'm gonna
put toge, uh, playlist together.
Uh,
Ben-jamin' Callahan:
This is so interesting.
I, I stumbled upon somebody who had
written, like, they were like giving their
assessment of the entire catalog, and
they put every record in order in terms of
their, their, you know, their preference.
And this was a bit of a music snob,
and they were kind of like, some of
the stuff that I love, they put so low,
Brad : yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Ben-jamin' Callahan: so
I was kinda like, oh.
So I feel like I love the two, my
two favorite records are the Bends
and in rainbows, I just feel like the
Bends has just got such a, there's
like so much good energy in that.
And then in rainbows, put your headphones
on and listen to the first track on in
Rainbows and it will like, blow your mind.
It's so good.
You know?
So I don't know.
I, I'll, I can send you
some others, but yeah.
Brad : No, that's that's fantastic.
I, I, and, and hard to agree.
There's, there's a lot there.
I mean,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : it is hard to, to choose and I
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Oh gosh.
Yeah.
Brad : the, the music snobby
people come out in spades for
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : like Radio ahead.
But,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yes, for sure.
Brad : well, cool.
And then, and then I think last
thing, um, is, is just like,
where, where could people find you?
We are, obviously, we're
talking about like the redwoods
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : all of that stuff, so Yeah, just,
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
I'll give you the quick rundown.
So ben callahan.com is where
all of this stuff lives.
So if you're looking for something
specific, you can go there and get to it.
But the, the sort of like three
things I would point folks to, one
is the questions, which is this,
just like open to the community.
There's a list you can get on and then.
On Mondays, I'll send a question.
I get a cohost to come in.
We come up with that question together.
We analyze the data Wednesday night, and
then Thursday or Friday we dive into it.
Every week's like a little
mini research project.
And it's super fun.
It's an incredible group of people.
Um, so if you're just like curious
about design systems or that space and
you wanna start meeting people in this
community, that's an easy way to do it.
if you want to go deeper in that same
vein, redwoods is just, it's brand new.
I just opened that this week
and it is, there's a small cost
associated with it, but it's really.
Kind of just covers the tooling we use
to stay connected throughout the week.
but it is very collaborative.
We are supporting each other.
We're learning a ton.
And we're, the difference here is we're
being really generous with our knowledge.
Everything we learn, we're gonna
synthesize and offer it back in
some way to the larger community.
So if you wanna be a part of creating,
informing the industry in some
ways, that's what that group is.
And then, um, the final thing I'll
just say is my company Sparkbox, we've
been around 16, almost 17 years now.
And, um, just, I mean,
it's so fun to come.
We get to just get to come into
organizations, come alongside their
teams, and just really help level them up.
That's really what we do.
And we do that.
The side effect of that is like
design systems or digital product
design or all that stuff, but it's
really about people and that's
what it's always been about for us.
So, those are probably the
easiest ways to get me.
Brad : Yeah.
Beautiful, beautiful.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much
for, for being here.
Awesome.
Thank you very much and congrats on,
on your like launch of your whole
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Brad : was like really cool, so
Ben-jamin' Callahan: Yeah.
Thanks Brad I appreciate
you having me, man.