The Truth About Mammograms and Breast Cancer Screening: What the Data Really Shows with Dr. Jenn Simmons

Breast cancer screening is often treated as a given. Mammograms are framed as routine, early detection as unquestionably life-saving, and following guidelines as the responsible choice. But what if the full picture is more complicated?

In this episode of hol+, Dr. Taz sits down with integrative oncologist and breast surgeon Dr. Jenn Simmons, author of The Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer, to explore what breast cancer screening data actually shows, where common narratives may oversimplify reality, and how statistics can sometimes be misunderstood by both patients and providers.

Together, they discuss the difference between screening and diagnostic imaging, why detecting more cancers does not always mean fewer deaths, and how concepts like overdiagnosis and lead-time bias shape our interpretation of outcomes. Dr. Jenn also explains how breast cancer behaves differently from many other cancers, why progression is not always linear, and what tumor markers like ER, PR, HER2, and triple-negative really indicate.

The conversation expands beyond imaging into a whole-body view of breast health, touching on inflammation, immune function, metabolic health, toxic burden, stress, and lifestyle as factors that shape cancer risk and recovery. Rather than promoting fear or urgency, this episode focuses on helping listeners understand their bodies, ask better questions, and make informed decisions with clarity.

This episode is for anyone who wants a deeper understanding of breast cancer screening, feels overwhelmed by conflicting guidance, or wants to approach breast health with more nuance and less panic.

About Dr. Jenn Simmons

Dr. Jenn Simmons is an integrative oncologist, breast surgeon, and founder of Real Health MD. She was Philadelphia’s first fellowship-trained breast surgeon and spent nearly two decades leading one of the region’s top breast programs before transitioning into integrative oncology.

Drawing from her experience in conventional cancer care and her own health journey, Dr. Simmons now focuses on whole-body approaches to breast health, cancer prevention, and recovery, including metabolic health, inflammation, immune function, lifestyle medicine, and root-cause healing. She is the author of The Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer, a patient-centered resource designed to help women better understand their diagnosis, ask informed questions, and navigate treatment decisions with clarity rather than fear.

Order the Book

The Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer 

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Host & Production Team

Host: Dr. Taz; Produced by ClipGrowth.com (Producer: Pat Gostek)

00:00 Swedish trial claim and overdiagnosis framing
00:52 Why this became a part two conversation
03:25 Reframing screening narratives and medical training gaps
04:39 Why Dr. Simmons questions mammograms as a screening tool
06:06 Origins of screening programs and “invitation to screen” bias
07:12 Relative risk vs absolute numbers example (4 vs 5 per 1,000)
08:49 Overdiagnosis explained with a vivid analogy
09:50 Autopsy-study claim and the “microscopic cancer” idea
12:11 Swedish trial claim revisited: more diagnoses, same deaths
13:38 Downstream harms: callbacks, biopsies, overtreatment
15:04 Lead-time bias and survival statistics explained
16:44 Dr. Simmons’ view on the founder’s regret narrative
18:16 Switzerland headline clarified and what actually changed
20:10 Cautionary stories and aggressive cancers discussion
22:07 Why breast cancer does not always progress linearly
24:21 Buckets: DCIS, invasive, inflammatory, receptor types
26:15 Clinical vs subclinical disease approach
28:25 Long-term tradeoffs and “forgotten woman” after treatment
32:15 What ER PR HER2 mean biologically and system incentives
35:33 Testosterone discussion and prevention claim presented
42:15 Hormones after breast cancer and the 4-year “reintroduction” idea
44:29 Triple negative: environment, toxicity, immune system focus
49:19 What to do next: pause, exceptions, whole-body workup
52:32 Prevention and breast health approach begins
53:24 At-home tears test explanation (as discussed)
56:24 Detox basics and why sweating is emphasized
59:34 Imaging preferences for screening and what to do if limited access

Creators and Guests

Host

Dr. Taz Bhatia MD

Dr. Taz Bhatia is a triple-board-certified integrative medicine physician and founder of hol+, where she brings together science, spirit and the human experience to deliver holistic, whole-person care.

Producer

Pat Gostek

Founder of ClipGrowth.com - End-to-End YouTube, Podcast & Clips Management (you just record).

What is hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic?

hol+ with Dr. Taz MD is redefining holistic medicine as the future of healthcare—integrating modern science, functional medicine, and time-tested healing systems to treat the whole human, not just symptoms. As a 2025 Webby honoree and pioneering show, hol+ dares to enter the next dimension of health-where both science and spirit converge to drive our health, happiness, relationships and family ecosystems.

Recent guests include mental health advocate and author, Sophie Gregorie Trudeau, best-selling author, Katherine Schwarzenegger, Emmy-winning host, actor, and health enthusiast, Cameron Mathison, supermodel Carol Alt, veteran actress and sometimes medicine woman, Jane Seymour, author and journalist, Tamsen Fadal, wellness advocate and cancer thriver, Kris Carr. 
 
From cutting-edge and innovative experts to celebrities and thought leaders, veteran TV personality, author, and trople board-certified physician, Dr. Taz MD, the host of hol+, leads these game-changing conversations - redefining the future of medicine.

On the heels of her successful 8-year-long podcast, Super Woman Wellness, which boasted over 1 million downloads, hol+ continues to be recognized as a show to watch, recognized in the same category as the Mel Robbins Podcast in the 29th Annual Webby Awards.

[00:00:00] Dr. Taz: Before we get into today's topic, I just wanna say thank you to everyone who's been [00:00:05] listening and reaching out. Your dms mean the world. They tell me what's helping, [00:00:10] what's confusing, and what's next for you. So if you haven't yet, come connect with me on [00:00:15] Instagram at Dr. Taz md. I'd love to hear your story and what brought you to Whole [00:00:20] Plus.
[00:00:20] Dr. Taz: Now, let's dive in.
[00:00:21] Dr. Jenn Simmons: When you look at the Swedish trial, 600,000 [00:00:25] women, half of them screen with mammogram, half of them don't. The same number of women die of [00:00:30] breast cancer in both groups. The only difference is the women [00:00:35] who screen with mammogram have 20 to [00:00:40] 30% more cancers in that group. So they're being diagnosed with more [00:00:45] cancers, but they're not dying of breast cancer anymore than the [00:00:50] women who aren't screening.
[00:00:51] Dr. Jenn Simmons: When we do autopsy studies, not on women that [00:00:55] died of breast cancer, but on women that died of. Suicide, [00:01:00] car accidents, overdoses. Mm-hmm. Do you know that 20% of them will have [00:01:05] evidence on pathology? On histology of breast cancer? No. [00:01:10] 20%? No. Yes.
[00:01:11] Dr. Taz: We didn't talk about that last time. No. Are you serious?
[00:01:14] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. [00:01:15]
[00:01:15] Dr. Taz: Some of the most powerful conversations on this podcast are the ones that don't end when the [00:01:20] camera stop rolling.
[00:01:21] Dr. Taz: After our first episode together, I heard from so many of you women [00:01:25] who finally felt seen, who began questioning old narratives about screening and [00:01:30] who wanted to know what to do next. That's why I'm so grateful to welcome back Dr. Jenn [00:01:35] Simmons to the show for part two of this powerful and yes, controversial [00:01:40] conversation.
[00:01:40] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Our bodies. Are constantly making cancer cells. It's just a [00:01:45] reality of what happens when you constantly turn over cells like Michael Keaton [00:01:50] in carbon copy. Right? You remember that movie? Like,
[00:01:52] Dr. Taz: yeah.
[00:01:52] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Some of them are gonna be number three,
[00:01:54] Dr. Taz: right? Okay.
[00:01:54] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:01:55] Right.
[00:01:55] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:01:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Like some of them are just not gonna work out well.
[00:01:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: A healthy body with an intact [00:02:00] immune system is going to be able to take care of that, to contain it, to reverse it.
[00:02:04] Dr. Taz: [00:02:05] For those of us joining us for the first time, Dr. Jenn Simmons is an integrative oncologist, [00:02:10] a breast surgeon, and author and founder of Real Health md. She was [00:02:15] Philadelphia's first fellowship trained breast surgeon and spent nearly two decades [00:02:20] leading one of the region's top breast programs.
[00:02:23] Dr. Taz: After facing her own health [00:02:25] crisis, she transitioned from conventional surgery to pioneer a new integrative [00:02:30] approach, one that merges science, functional medicine, and lifestyle [00:02:35] medicine to help women truly heal. In this episode, we'll continue the conversation, taking your [00:02:40] questions, exploring the latest research, and asking what real breast [00:02:45] healthcare looks like today.
[00:02:46] Dr. Taz: Please join me in welcoming back Dr. Jenn Simmons. [00:02:50] Dr. Jen, hi. I am so happy to have you back. Thank you. So for those of who don't [00:02:55] know, this is like a part two for us. We did an episode, I think a couple months ago. Mm-hmm. [00:03:00] And that episode went. Crazy. Absolutely crazy. I have some of the questions from that [00:03:05] episode that I actually wanna ask you, but I think some of what really touched a nerve [00:03:10] we need to revisit, and I wanna almost go deeper, if that makes sense.
[00:03:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Because [00:03:15] we talked about mammograms and we talked about whether they really are the right tool [00:03:20] for breast health and for screening and for cancer prevention and all of these different things that we've [00:03:25] been kind of brainwashed and led to believe over the years. We talked about, you know, [00:03:30] some of the training that we received as you know, medical students and residents, [00:03:35] and the disconnect of that training from basic things like [00:03:40] inflammation and diet and you know, the role of lifestyle and emotions and all these different things.
[00:03:44] Dr. Taz: [00:03:45] When we touched on a lot of that in that first episode. But what happened [00:03:50] after the episode was a barrage of questions [00:03:55] that I didn't really feel to be a hundred percent honest, equipped to answer. And that's why I [00:04:00] wanted to bring you back because I wanted my audience and my community to [00:04:05] hear from you and for you to also maybe go deeper in some of these [00:04:10] statements that we've been making over the last few months as we're really trying to like push and push [00:04:15] people forward.
[00:04:16] Dr. Taz: So let's start with first just kind of laying a foundation [00:04:20] and laying some groundwork you, and we're gonna do this again guys, and I don't want you to roll your [00:04:25] eyes or change the channel, but this is really important and we're both very passionate about it. But you [00:04:30] very clearly stated that you do not think mammograms are the [00:04:35] tool that we need to be using to screen ourselves when it comes to [00:04:40] breast cancer and breast cancer prevention.
[00:04:41] Dr. Taz: Can you go back to that statement? Yeah. For just a second.
[00:04:44] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. [00:04:45] So. It comes down to this. This has become [00:04:50] another example of virtue signaling.
[00:04:54] Dr. Taz: Virtue [00:04:55] signaling.
[00:04:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:04:56] Dr. Taz: Okay. You're gonna have to explain that too.
[00:04:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah, absolutely. [00:05:00] So we decided in the 1970s [00:05:05] that mammogram was the right thing to do. Right. It's the [00:05:10] morally right thing to do.
[00:05:11] Dr. Jenn Simmons: We should screen for breast cancer, catch it early, [00:05:15] and if we catch it early, we will save lives and save breasts.
[00:05:19] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:05:20]
[00:05:20] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And it's a lovely theory and it does make you feel [00:05:25] virtuous if in fact, that's what it does. Right. It does make it [00:05:30] seem as if you're doing something really good, being
[00:05:33] Dr. Taz: proactive.
[00:05:33] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[00:05:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right? Yes. Yeah. [00:05:35] So you feel good about it. The system feels good about it. Like it all makes [00:05:40] perfect sense. Only it's not true. It was something [00:05:45] that was sold to us. It was a brilliant, wonderful heart [00:05:50] string wrenching campaign.
[00:05:52] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:05:53] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But mammograms don't [00:05:55] save lives and they don't save breasts. And we have known this since the late [00:06:00] 1970s.
[00:06:01] Dr. Taz: So when did mammograms enter the scene? What were we doing before? [00:06:05]
[00:06:05] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Before we weren't really screening for breast cancer, so we
[00:06:08] Dr. Taz: weren't doing anything.
[00:06:09] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:09] Dr. Taz: Okay. So [00:06:10] this seemed like a
[00:06:10] Dr. Jenn Simmons: level up maybe. I mean, there were, maybe there were physical examinations. Right. But mammograms [00:06:15] entered the scene in the late 1960s and there is, [00:06:20] um, an English physician named Dr.
[00:06:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Michael Baum. Mm-hmm. [00:06:25] Uh, he's a surgeon and he actually. Was the [00:06:30] founder of the Mammographic screening program, and it was based on a study in the [00:06:35] late 1960s, the early 1970s, where it was an invitation to [00:06:40] screen study. And so already that has some bias [00:06:45] because who are you inviting to screen? Probably the more healthy people.[00:06:50]
[00:06:50] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And when you do a study based on invitation to screen mm-hmm. The study [00:06:55] participants are those that show up. So it's not, it's like the
[00:06:59] Dr. Taz: [00:07:00] surveys, right?
[00:07:00] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[00:07:01] Dr. Taz: So Right. Only certain people are gonna show up when you do a survey.
[00:07:04] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. [00:07:05] So when you compare the people invited to screen and those that show up to [00:07:10] the general population, already, there's a significant bias there.[00:07:15]
[00:07:15] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:07:15] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So already it's going to look like mammogram does something that it doesn't do. [00:07:20] But beyond that, what happened with that [00:07:25] study is that they found that. When you look at [00:07:30] 1000 women over 10 years mm-hmm. If you [00:07:35] screen with mammogram, four out of that 1000 will die of [00:07:40] breast cancer. If you don't screen with mammogram, five out of that 10 thou, uh, [00:07:45] 1000 will die of breast cancer.
[00:07:47] Dr. Taz: Okay. So that's the part that everyone like started [00:07:50] to really, you know, get muffled with, so to speak. I can't think of a better word. [00:07:55] So, four, die without [00:08:00] screening and five, excuse me.
[00:08:02] Dr. Jenn Simmons: No, four with screening.
[00:08:04] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:08:05] Five without. Okay, so that's
[00:08:06] Dr. Jenn Simmons: very, so five is 20% more [00:08:10] than four. And so the headline was [00:08:15] mammogram reduces the risk of dying of breast cancer by [00:08:20] 20%.
[00:08:22] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And that is what we built. [00:08:25] Our entire worldwide mammographic [00:08:30] screening programs on
[00:08:32] Dr. Taz: that study. So they weren't, they didn't [00:08:35] recognize this in the beginning. They did. And so why, why [00:08:40] did we like sort of because die on that sword? Because
[00:08:43] Dr. Jenn Simmons: everyone, [00:08:45] because everyone responded to the headline. Didn't look any [00:08:50] further into the study and it was really good for [00:08:55] everyone.
[00:08:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm. Because suddenly when you, when you start to [00:09:00] screen the population, what you really do is [00:09:05] diagnose a bunch of, I wanna say quote unquote, good cancers. Mm. [00:09:10] Cancers that would have never affected anyone in [00:09:15] their lifetime, would've never become clinically relevant. But because we [00:09:20] can see them microscopically, give them a diagnosis, treat them, [00:09:25] and then call them cured.
[00:09:27] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It's like throwing [00:09:30] someone in front of a train, pulling them back and saying, I saved your life. [00:09:35]
[00:09:36] Dr. Taz: Okay. So you, you said so much right there. So, good cancer. Come on. Is [00:09:40] there any such thing as good cancer?
[00:09:42] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Well, the thing is, when we look at autopsy [00:09:45] studies. I do wanna get back to that original study.
[00:09:49] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. And Dr. [00:09:50] Michael Baum. Yes. And we
[00:09:50] Dr. Taz: will,
[00:09:50] Dr. Jenn Simmons: because it is his biggest regret in his life that he started [00:09:55] the Mammographic screening program. And he says that, um, but when we [00:10:00] do autopsy studies, not on women that died of breast cancer, but on [00:10:05] women that died of suicide, car accidents, [00:10:10] overdoses, and we do serial sections through the breast.
Mm-hmm.
[00:10:14] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Do you know that [00:10:15] 20% of them will have evidence, like on pathology? On [00:10:20] histology of breast cancer? No. 20%?
[00:10:23] Dr. Taz: No.
[00:10:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[00:10:24] Dr. Taz: We didn't talk about that [00:10:25] last time. No. Yes. Are you serious?
[00:10:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[00:10:27] Dr. Taz: What kind of breast cancer?
[00:10:29] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I mean, a [00:10:30] lot of it's gonna be DCIS or ductal carcinoma inside too, but it's not exclusively [00:10:35] DCIS.
[00:10:35] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm. And. What we have [00:10:40] to realize is that our bodies are constantly making [00:10:45] cancer cells. It's just a reality of what happens when you, when you [00:10:50] constantly turn over cells, like some of them are gonna be like, um, Michael [00:10:55] Keaton in carbon copy. Right? You remember that movie? Like, yes, I do.
[00:10:57] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:10:58] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Some of them are gonna be number three.[00:11:00]
[00:11:00] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right? Okay.
[00:11:00] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:11:01] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Like some of them are just not gonna work out well. But a body, [00:11:05] a healthy body with an intact immune system is going to be able to take care of [00:11:10] that, to contain it, to reverse it. Mm-hmm. And you don't need the medical [00:11:15] system involved in doing that. Our bodies are very intelligent. They can take care of it.
[00:11:19] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:11:20] not everything that on a microscopic level is actually [00:11:25] going to develop into disease. But if you use a really [00:11:30] unsophisticated tool like mammogram, right. Then you are going to find [00:11:35] these things in their infancy and you have no way of determining [00:11:40] because there's no kind of functional aspect of that [00:11:45] test.
[00:11:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It's either, uh, yes, this is normal, [00:11:50] no, this is abnormal. And they go on to all the rest of the stuff. [00:11:55] So we are picking up these cancers or these [00:12:00] changes in their infancy. Mm-hmm. And we're giving them a [00:12:05] diagnosis even though the natural history of it is that it pro it would not [00:12:10] have progressed. And we know this from very, very large scale studies.
[00:12:14] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So when you [00:12:15] look at the Swedish trial trial, 600,000 women. [00:12:20] Half of them screen with mammogram, half of them don't. The same number of women die of breast [00:12:25] cancer in both groups. But the only difference is the women who [00:12:30] screen with mammogram have 20 to 30% [00:12:35] more cancers in that group. So they're being diagnosed with more [00:12:40] cancers.
[00:12:40] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. But they're not dying of breast cancer anymore than the women [00:12:45] who aren't screening.
[00:12:46] Dr. Taz: And this goes back to when we look at stats and we say, okay, we're diagnosing more [00:12:50] breast cancer, but the actual mortality rate hasn't shifted. Correct. It hasn't [00:12:55] really changed.
[00:12:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: The, the absolute number hasn't changed.
[00:12:59] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:13:00] they're saying the mortality rate is improved, but if you diagnose a bunch of [00:13:05] people who would not have died of the disease with the disease and then you [00:13:10] measure mortality rate, of course it's gonna look favorably in, [00:13:15] in that group. But when you look at the absolute number of [00:13:20] women who die of breast cancer every year, that hasn't changed.
[00:13:23] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:13:24] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:13:25] why, if mammogram saves lives, why hasn't that been impacted? Why [00:13:30] haven't we decreased the number of women dying of breast cancer every year?
[00:13:34] Dr. Taz: So [00:13:35] let's go back, you mentioned, and I'm blanking on his name, Dr. Michael Baum. Yeah. Let's go back to that. Mm-hmm. So you said [00:13:40] you're saying his work was actually the biggest regret of his life.
[00:13:43] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:44] Dr. Taz: Tell [00:13:45] me, tell us a little bit more about that.
[00:13:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Well, so when we go back to that original study, the four [00:13:50] women dying of breast cancer versus five Women of dying of breast cancer, [00:13:55] when you look at the number of women that die of cancer in both groups mm-hmm. They're the [00:14:00] same. And then you look at the downstream effects [00:14:05] of screening with mammogram, because if you screen with mammogram yes.
[00:14:09] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:14:10] One, you'll, you'll save one less woman in a thousand of dying of breast [00:14:15] cancer, even though in both of the groups, 11 women died of [00:14:20] cancer. But you will also cause a hundred women to be called back [00:14:25] for additional views. Oh,
[00:14:26] Dr. Taz: yeah.
[00:14:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Biopsies. Oh,
[00:14:28] Dr. Taz: yes. All
[00:14:29] Dr. Jenn Simmons: the time. Over [00:14:30] diagnosis. Over treatment.
[00:14:31] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:31] Dr. Jenn Simmons: That doesn't happen in the group that you [00:14:35] don't screen with mammogram.
[00:14:36] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right, right. So the actual cost [00:14:40] is far greater. On the side of screening with mammogram because [00:14:45] we're not really saving lives.
[00:14:46] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:14:48] Dr. Jenn Simmons: The overall survival [00:14:50] doesn't change,
[00:14:50] Dr. Taz: right?
[00:14:51] Dr. Jenn Simmons: We're not really saving lives. We are creating the [00:14:55] illusion that we are, and that illusion is twofold, first of all, [00:15:00] just based on the design of that original study.
[00:15:04] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But [00:15:05] the other thing is that when we do these studies, we [00:15:10] create these surrogate endpoints. So we're not really talking about overall survival. We're [00:15:15] not talking about do these women live the same [00:15:20] or longer than, than the women that don't get screened. [00:15:25] We're saying that we're calling survival five years or 10 years or [00:15:30] something like that.
[00:15:31] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So it, it is. [00:15:35] Um, marred by something called lead time bias.
[00:15:39] Dr. Taz: Okay,
[00:15:39] Dr. Jenn Simmons: so [00:15:40] let's take two women. They're both gonna [00:15:45] die of breast cancer at the age of 60. One woman [00:15:50] is not screening and she gets diagnosed at [00:15:55] 55 and dies at 60.
[00:15:58] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:59] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:16:00] Statistically speaking, that woman died of breast cancer.
[00:16:02] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:16:03] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Another woman who's [00:16:05] using mammogram, she gets diagnosed at 45.
[00:16:09] Dr. Jenn Simmons: She still [00:16:10] dies at 60 of breast cancer. But statistically speaking, she did not die of breast [00:16:15] cancer because she survived five years. She survived 10 years. She's a [00:16:20] survivor.
[00:16:21] Dr. Taz: Oh my gosh. The way we define these things.
[00:16:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. [00:16:25] So when you assign these surrogate endpoints, right? Five year survival, 10 year [00:16:30] survival, then you, you, you're losing the forests through the trees.
[00:16:34] Dr. Taz: So [00:16:35] being a survivor, when we see the walks and people wearing t-shirts and all the things that we see out there, and they say, [00:16:40] I'm a breast cancer survivor, that's defined as a five year or 10 year [00:16:45] survival rate.
[00:16:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:46] Dr. Taz: Wow. Mm-hmm. I didn't even know that. Mm-hmm. To be a hundred percent honest. Yeah. Okay.
[00:16:49] Dr. Taz: If [00:16:50] Dr. Michael Baum was sitting here today, what would he say to me?
[00:16:53] Dr. Jenn Simmons: He would say, I'm [00:16:55] sorry that I ever, um, I. Started that program [00:17:00] that I ever endorsed, that program that not only are we not saving [00:17:05] lives, but we have created this whole system [00:17:10] that only benefits the system, that there is no benefit to the women.[00:17:15]
[00:17:15] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And we go back to, you know, we know that mammogram doesn't save [00:17:20] lives, but if it saved breasts, that would be a [00:17:25] worthy, that would be a win endeavor. It would be, right? It absolutely would be. But the only thing that [00:17:30] mammogram has done is, has increased the mastectomy rate. Mm-hmm. So for sure it [00:17:35] leads to a 20% increase in mastectomy rate for several reasons.[00:17:40]
[00:17:40] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Fear finding. Little things in other areas of the breast [00:17:45] and kind of saying, well, let's just throw the baby out with the bath water. Right? [00:17:50] And so it's really unfortunate and at this point [00:17:55] it's such a monster with so much momentum behind [00:18:00] it.
[00:18:00] Dr. Taz: And money
[00:18:01] Dr. Jenn Simmons: and money, right? Right. That's part of the momentum,
[00:18:04] Dr. Taz: right?
[00:18:04] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:18:05] That and people have been so conditioned to believe that [00:18:10] mammograms save lives, that it's nearly impossible to unring this bell, [00:18:15] and it has become virtue signaling.
[00:18:19] Dr. Taz: [00:18:20] So let's, let's dive into some of the headlines around this as we, as we try to pull this apart [00:18:25] here. So recently, I believe, and I may have this wrong, but Switzerland banned [00:18:30] mammograms.
[00:18:30] Dr. Taz: Is that true?
[00:18:31] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. That's fake news, unfortunately.
[00:18:34] Dr. Taz: That's fake news. Okay. Tell us
[00:18:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:18:35] about that. '
[00:18:35] Dr. Taz: cause so
[00:18:35] Dr. Jenn Simmons: many
[00:18:36] Dr. Taz: people are coming.
[00:18:36] Dr. Jenn Simmons: They did get a recommendation. Okay. To do that. [00:18:40] Because of the virtue signaling behind [00:18:45] mammogram.
[00:18:45] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:18:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And, um, and probably one of the [00:18:50] world's biggest names and experts in Mammographic [00:18:55] interpretation, Dr.
[00:18:56] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I think his name is Lazlow. Tobar.
[00:18:58] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:58] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Uh, who is [00:19:00] from there.
[00:19:00] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:01] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Or is Swedish. And he, [00:19:05] um, he was very connected in the [00:19:10] government and said, you know, how can you do this and people want this? And it, it [00:19:15] all became about this kind of moral stance [00:19:20] on people want this, that's why we should do it.
[00:19:22] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:19:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right.
[00:19:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But
[00:19:23] Dr. Taz: it didn't actually happen. [00:19:25]
[00:19:25] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It it did. He, he had the whole thing. [00:19:30] Turned around and reversed because they were going to get rid. [00:19:35] And I think they largely have gotten rid of their kind of [00:19:40] mandatory or screening community screening programs. Now it's the people that want to [00:19:45] screen can screen, but they don't, I don't think that they have formal screening programs [00:19:50] anymore.
[00:19:50] Dr. Taz: Got you.
[00:19:51] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And the people that screen there, it's nothing like here.
[00:19:54] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:54] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:19:55] if they screen there, it's once every few years. It's not a yearly thing like it [00:20:00] is here.
[00:20:00] Dr. Taz: Interesting.
[00:20:01] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:20:02] Dr. Taz: Okay. And then another, I,
[00:20:03] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I wish that were true, but it is,
[00:20:04] Dr. Taz: it's [00:20:05] not true. Okay. Good to know. And then another headline, I don't know if this caught you.
[00:20:08] Dr. Taz: Um, Ananda [00:20:10] Lewis. Did you follow her case at all? She was, I think in our time, kind of a [00:20:15] big MTV dj, dj, and I believe she got diagnosed with breast [00:20:20] cancer. Um, chose not to do repetitive screening. I think she chose not to do treatment [00:20:25] and she ended up dying fairly young. Probably. She's probably right at 50.
[00:20:28] Dr. Taz: Yes. If that. [00:20:30] So again, I don't know all the details of her story. I don't know if you'd paid attention to that, but in [00:20:35] our comments from our first episode, you know, there's some comments about that. [00:20:40] Like, oh, remember Anand Lewis, remember what happened to her? You know, those types of things. So yes,
[00:20:44] Dr. Jenn Simmons: they [00:20:45] love these stories.
[00:20:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes, these cautionary tales,
[00:20:47] Dr. Taz: right?
[00:20:48] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But the, [00:20:50] the data just speaks otherwise. So no matter how many mammograms [00:20:55] we do every year, the same number of women die of breast cancer. [00:21:00] No matter how many mammograms we do every year, the same number of [00:21:05] women present with aggressive disease. She had aggressive disease.[00:21:10]
[00:21:10] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Would conventional treatment have helped her? 'cause I know that she opted out of [00:21:15] all conventional treatment. Mm-hmm. I don't know.
[00:21:17] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:21:18] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I honestly don't know. I don't [00:21:20] know anything about the specifics of her pathology. Right. But [00:21:25] young women with aggressive cases of breast cancer, can [00:21:30] some of our treatments delay the inevitable?
[00:21:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:21:35] Yeah, probably. And can we get them to fit into that five [00:21:40] year survival statistic? Maybe. Maybe, maybe even the 10 year survival [00:21:45] statistic? I don't know. But the truth is that. Most breast [00:21:50] cancers, they are what they are from the very beginning. Mm. So if it's going to be aggressive, it's [00:21:55] going to be aggressive from the very beginning.
[00:21:56] Dr. Jenn Simmons: This is actually why mammographic [00:22:00] screening doesn't work. Mm. Because breast cancer doesn't follow some linear [00:22:05] predestined progression. It's not like it starts really small [00:22:10] as a ayia or abnormal cells, and then it becomes non-invasive [00:22:15] and then it becomes invasive, and then it becomes node positive and then it becomes metastatic.
[00:22:19] Dr. Taz: [00:22:20] Mm.
[00:22:20] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It would be nice if it worked that way, and there are some cancers that you can [00:22:25] predict their behavior.
[00:22:26] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:22:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Like cervical cancer, like colon [00:22:30] cancer. But it's not true of breast cancer. Like there are some people with breast [00:22:35] cancer that de novo from the beginning have metastatic disease.
[00:22:39] Dr. Taz: [00:22:40] Wow.
[00:22:40] Dr. Jenn Simmons: There are some people who have DCIS that [00:22:45] will either.
[00:22:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Never progress. Dr. Carcinoma situ. Mm-hmm. That [00:22:50] will never progress to be invasive cancers. In fact, it's around [00:22:55] 80% will never progress. And some of them it will just regress and [00:23:00] go away.
[00:23:00] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:23:01] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And then there's everything in between.
[00:23:03] Dr. Taz: Do we understand what [00:23:05] drives what
[00:23:06] Dr. Jenn Simmons: not exactly.
[00:23:07] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:23:08] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I mean, we can look [00:23:10] at the behavior of the tumor and some of the [00:23:15] prognostics associated with the tumor and guess, but we don't [00:23:20] have any test right now that determines hers.
[00:23:24] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:23:25] What the, what the progression of this specific. [00:23:30] Cancer is going to look like we have some predictive models, [00:23:35] things like the Oncotype mm-hmm. Which determines who does and doesn't benefit from [00:23:40] chemotherapy. Um, we have a predictor of who [00:23:45] does and doesn't benefit from radiation, but we don't really [00:23:50] have a good test to pair along with a [00:23:55] biopsy to say, who does and who does not need treatment.[00:24:00]
[00:24:00] Dr. Taz: Mm. That's so
[00:24:00] Dr. Jenn Simmons: frustrating. And that is where we should focus. Yeah. Time, [00:24:05] energy, and money, but that's never happening.
[00:24:08] Dr. Taz: So I wanna break [00:24:10] some of that conversation down a little bit more, because again, going back to the comments from our previous [00:24:15] episode, there were things like, well, you know, if I hadn't shown up, I would've been [00:24:20] diagnosed with stage four.
[00:24:20] Dr. Taz: They caught it early, so and so didn't go and had stage four, [00:24:25] got mets to the brain and then passed away. Um, you know, when we're thinking about the [00:24:30] aggressiveness of cancers, is there a way we can organize it in our [00:24:35] brain in a particular way? Like if you've been given a diagnosis of DCIS, [00:24:40] what is your caution level?
[00:24:42] Dr. Taz: What do you need to think if you've been given some [00:24:45] of the other diagnoses? Right. And we can, we probably should walk through some of the other [00:24:50] types of breast cancer. Yeah. Like. What do you do? Where do you go? What do you start [00:24:55] thinking? I've gotten questions. You know, I just had to get on the phone last week with a dear patient.
[00:24:59] Dr. Taz: Been coming [00:25:00] to me for years, probably almost 15 years. Recent diagnosis, and I think her diagnosis [00:25:05] is stage one ductal Invasive carcinoma. Mm-hmm. Not DCIS, but ductal [00:25:10] invasive. Yeah, invasive ductal carcin. Yep. So that's her diagnosis. You know, other people have the papillary [00:25:15] inflammatory cancer. Some people are ER positive, PR positive.
[00:25:18] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Her two positive. Some [00:25:20] people are triple negative. Can you organize this for maybe everybody listening [00:25:25] today to kind of put it into buckets so that we can kind of organize our brains a little bit? [00:25:30] Yeah. And think, okay, these are aggressive. I can slow down on decision making with [00:25:35] these. Mm-hmm. This is what I need to do with these.
[00:25:36] Dr. Taz: Can you help us with that?
[00:25:37] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah, absolutely. But I'm [00:25:40] not gonna do it justice the same way that my book, the Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer Will [00:25:45] do.
[00:25:45] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:25:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And I honestly think that this is not [00:25:50] self-serving. This is a book that every single breast owner needs [00:25:55] to read.
[00:25:55] Dr. Taz: Absolutely.
[00:25:56] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. And it's, it's
[00:25:57] Dr. Taz: tied to this conversation, not to interrupt you, but [00:26:00] tied to this conversation.
[00:26:01] Dr. Taz: Sure. We can talk about breast cancer, which we're about to do, but [00:26:05] there's also breast health. Mm-hmm. And we need to understand that mm-hmm. As well. And we don't dive into breast [00:26:10] health. You know, now we might think about things metabolically or physiologically, but we're [00:26:15] not talking about the breast. So I feel like those are the two buckets that we really need [00:26:20] to get into Yeah.
[00:26:21] Dr. Taz: To help our viewers and listeners.
[00:26:22] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah, absolutely. So [00:26:25] I'm gonna start off by saying that I, [00:26:30] the, the way that I approach. Who gets treatment and [00:26:35] what treatment they get or don't is do you have clinical disease? [00:26:40] So do you notice a change? Does, does the finding in your [00:26:45] breast have a presence? Do you feel a lump?
[00:26:47] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Has the appearance of your breast changed? [00:26:50] Do you have nipple discharge? Do you have any pain or discomfort? [00:26:55] Because I am going to always defer to the [00:27:00] signals your body is sending you. So someone with a finding [00:27:05] on an imaging study that comes to me and they have [00:27:10] absolutely positively no symptoms, and I being, [00:27:15] you know, highly, highly trained to examine the breast [00:27:20] and.
[00:27:21] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Also to really [00:27:25] dive deep for symptoms. If I can't find any, I am [00:27:30] not intervening. Their body has that interesting. Like they're [00:27:35] good. So
[00:27:36] Dr. Taz: no symptoms, no signs.
[00:27:38] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I'm, I'm not [00:27:40] treating subclinical disease. I don't really believe in it, [00:27:45] especially because what we have, [00:27:50] the way that we treat breast cancer [00:27:55] does not bode well in the long run for women.
[00:27:58] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:59] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because [00:28:00] most of the treatments that we have for breast cancer, I mean okay, surgery, [00:28:05] maybe there's some deformity associated with the breast. Can people live with that? [00:28:10] Yeah. People can live with that. But the, all the anti hormonal [00:28:15] treatment. The chemotherapy, the radiation, this [00:28:20] accelerates heart disease, which is by far and away exponentially the number [00:28:25] one threat to a woman's life.
[00:28:27] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:28] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And so if we [00:28:30] are treating something that would've never affected them in their lifetime, right? Like they have [00:28:35] subclinical changes in their breast and we now [00:28:40] give them a diagnosis and treat them for breast cancer and give them [00:28:45] heart disease or accelerate their heart disease, have we helped them?
[00:28:49] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:28:50] Did we help them necessarily? Not at all. So I always [00:28:55] start off with where are you right now? Right? Do you have [00:29:00] any evidence of clinical disease? If you have evidence of clinical disease, I'm treating that. I [00:29:05] don't know that I'm throwing everything at it. Right. I am taking you, [00:29:10] meeting you where you are and if it's DCIS or ductal [00:29:15] carcinoma in situ two, well that we know, like we have plenty of time to deal with [00:29:20] that.
[00:29:20] Dr. Jenn Simmons: If you did nothing about that for a year or two years, five [00:29:25] years, it may never progress to be anything. Mm-hmm. I'm not suggesting that people do [00:29:30] nothing.
[00:29:30] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:29:30] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right, right. Like everyone who comes into my ecosystem, [00:29:35] you're doing something. You just may not be doing what the conventional [00:29:40] cancer world is telling you to do.
[00:29:41] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. And you know, I don't come by this lightly. I [00:29:45] spent 20 years as a surgeon. Right. Treating breast cancer, [00:29:50] running a cancer program. Right. An NIH accredited cancer program. [00:29:55] I didn't just fall off the turnip truck or I'm not some like woowoo doctor out [00:30:00] there. Nope. Not at all. Saying like, oh, let's treat cancer with Black [00:30:05] salve.
[00:30:05] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. Like no.
[00:30:06] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:30:07] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. But [00:30:10] there are some people with subclinical disease who I don't think need to [00:30:15] go through the rigors of what we consider [00:30:20] the right thing to do in everyone, all comers with breast [00:30:25] changes. Right. So a lot of [00:30:30] D-C-I-S-I am watching. The flip side of it is if you come to [00:30:35] me with DCIS and you have a mass in your breast that you can feel, or you have [00:30:40] nipple discharge or you have some symptom that's invasive cancer until proven [00:30:45] otherwise, from my perspective.
[00:30:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Got
[00:30:46] Dr. Taz: it.
[00:30:47] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Like if you have [00:30:50] some kind of physical change that I can recognize. [00:30:55] In my opinion, there's more there than you think. [00:31:00]
[00:31:00] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:31:00] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. And so I'm far more apt to treat that.
[00:31:04] Dr. Taz: And what is that treat? [00:31:05] Is it again the same drugs,
[00:31:06] Dr. Jenn Simmons: the same chemo, or, I mean, it depends. Yeah. Okay. It [00:31:10] depends. And so with invasive cancers right, [00:31:15] I'm also probably going [00:31:20] to spend a few months trying to figure out what's going [00:31:25] on with this person before I commit them to treatment.
[00:31:28] Dr. Jenn Simmons: If they are [00:31:30] totally asymptomatic.
[00:31:31] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:32] Dr. Jenn Simmons: If they have a symptom, [00:31:35] then I, I believe in treating breast cancer that is, [00:31:40] that has clinical symptoms, that there is clinical [00:31:45] disease. I just don't believe in treating all of these [00:31:50] asymptomatic. Like microscopic cancers [00:31:55] that are simply being diagnosed because we decided to, [00:32:00] to screen.
[00:32:00] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I, I, I don't think we're doing the right thing by those people. [00:32:05] And when we look at the data, I know that we're not doing the right thing [00:32:10] by those people. Wow. So that's so
[00:32:10] Dr. Taz: different from what people are hearing.
[00:32:12] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[00:32:13] Dr. Taz: And the decision making
Yes.
[00:32:14] Dr. Jenn Simmons: That they're going [00:32:15] through. Yes. 'cause unfortunately, we're very useful idiots.
[00:32:19] Dr. Taz: [00:32:20] Yeah,
[00:32:20] Dr. Jenn Simmons: we are.
[00:32:21] Dr. Taz: So, okay, then what about. A patient [00:32:25] recently, if it's ER PR positive?
[00:32:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:32:27] Dr. Taz: How does that change things? What does HER two negative [00:32:30] mean or HER two positive mean? Yeah.
[00:32:31] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So when we look at the tumor cell, [00:32:35] there are some characteristics that we look for and we [00:32:40] mostly look for them for the purposes of what can we use in this [00:32:45] instance?
[00:32:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And some of the information is useful and some of the [00:32:50] information is just simply misunderstood. So you are a hormone [00:32:55] expert. Mm-hmm. Let me ask you, what effect does [00:33:00] progesterone have on the breast?
[00:33:02] Dr. Taz: It's anti-inflammatory.
[00:33:03] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. And it's [00:33:05] also anti-proliferative,
[00:33:06] Dr. Taz: right?
[00:33:08] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:33:10] when we, when we look for these.
[00:33:12] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Receptors on the [00:33:15] cancer cells, we look for estrogen receptors. We look for [00:33:20] progesterone receptors 'cause we can not, because we understand what they mean or what [00:33:25] they do. And we look for a protein on the cell [00:33:30] called her two new. And if we see [00:33:35] these receptors on the on the cell or these proteins on the cell, we [00:33:40] say they're estrogen positive or progesterone positive or HER two positive.[00:33:45]
[00:33:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And then we kind of hand that sheet off of paper off [00:33:50] to the medical oncologist who designs their [00:33:55] treatment around this receptor positivity. Now the first thing you have to [00:34:00] understand is all of these things are normal. Is normal [00:34:05] to have estrogen receptors on the cell. It's how the cell knows to grow. [00:34:10] It is normal to have progesterone receptors on the cell.[00:34:15]
[00:34:15] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It's how the cell knows to stop growing. It is [00:34:20] normal to have her two new protein on the cell. It has to [00:34:25] do with cellular regeneration and these [00:34:30] estrogen, progesterone, even HER two. Proteins [00:34:35] are found in cells all over the body.
[00:34:37] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:34:38] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Not just the breast. They're not [00:34:40] nearly exclusive to the breast. They're literally all over the [00:34:45] body.
[00:34:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Which is why when we use medicines to target the [00:34:50] HER two protein, we have to be careful and do things like monitor the [00:34:55] heart.
[00:34:55] Dr. Taz: Right?
[00:34:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because guess what? The heart cells are very rich in.
[00:34:59] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:59] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:35:00] They're very rich in HER two new protein.
[00:35:02] Dr. Taz: See, we don't hear about this.
[00:35:03] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So if you [00:35:05] use Herceptin to treat a HER two [00:35:10] positive cancer, you could at the same time do some [00:35:15] significant damage to the cardiac cells.
[00:35:18] Dr. Taz: Wow.
[00:35:19] Dr. Jenn Simmons: To the heart [00:35:20] cells.
[00:35:20] Dr. Taz: Hmm. We're all connected guys. We talk about this all the time.
[00:35:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[00:35:24] Dr. Taz: It's all
[00:35:24] Dr. Jenn Simmons: connected. [00:35:25]
[00:35:25] Dr. Taz: Yep.
[00:35:25] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So this is why we have to so [00:35:30] thoughtfully and gingerly approach this, but. You only hear the [00:35:35] narrative that the pharmaceutical company wants you to hear. [00:35:40] And I think it's so interesting that like, why don't we [00:35:45] test for androgen receptors?
[00:35:47] Dr. Taz: I have said that for
[00:35:48] Dr. Jenn Simmons: years.
[00:35:48] Dr. Taz: And I'm not even like [00:35:50] a breast cancer specialist.
[00:35:51] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. Do you know the answer? Why?
[00:35:53] Dr. Taz: No, I don't.
[00:35:54] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:35:55] if we look at the, uh. Research out of Rebecca Glaser's [00:36:00] practice. Mm-hmm. In, um, in Ohio, she had, she just released her [00:36:05] 20, 25, 20 year study [00:36:10] and women treated with testosterone.
[00:36:14] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.[00:36:15]
[00:36:15] Dr. Jenn Simmons: With or without an aromatase inhibitor because in our body, physiologically [00:36:20] testosterone will convert to estrogen.
[00:36:21] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:36:22] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So with or without an aromatase [00:36:25] inhibitor to prevent some of that conversion to estrogen, [00:36:30] they have a 47% [00:36:35] decreased incidents of breast cancer as compared to the general [00:36:40] population that are not treated
[00:36:41] Dr. Taz: with testosterone.
[00:36:42] Dr. Taz: Okay. You're gonna have to explain that.
[00:36:43] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. [00:36:45] So when we were trained to do [00:36:50] menopausal hormone replacement. What were we trained on?
[00:36:53] Dr. Taz: Estrogen and progesterone. [00:36:55] Estradiol and progestin. Usually,
[00:36:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: well, not even [00:37:00] estradiol. We were really trained on conjugated, equine, estrogen. Equine
[00:37:03] Dr. Taz: estrogen
[00:37:04] Dr. Jenn Simmons: and [00:37:05] progestogen.
[00:37:05] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right? Yeah. We, we were trained on to give people prempro.
[00:37:09] Dr. Taz: Right,
[00:37:09] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:37:10] right,
[00:37:10] Dr. Taz: right.
[00:37:11] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So we were never trained on giving women [00:37:15] testosterone. It was heresy. Mm-hmm. To give women testosterone. [00:37:20] Well, for whatever the reason Rebecca Glazer figured [00:37:25] out a long time ago, early on in her career, and she's a breast surgeon by training [00:37:30] that if you give testosterone to [00:37:35] women with proliferative breasts, with proliferative lesions, [00:37:40] and it in the context of your menopausal hormone therapy.[00:37:45]
[00:37:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: They actually, their lesions either regressed or they [00:37:50] didn't go on to develop breast cancer. And so she kept doing it and kept studying [00:37:55] it and kept doing it and kept studying it. And she just released her [00:38:00] 20 year results. Wow. And her patients who she [00:38:05] routinely treats with testosterone, she actually doesn't even give estrogen.
[00:38:09] Dr. Taz: [00:38:10] Huh?
[00:38:10] Dr. Jenn Simmons: She just gives testosterone. They have a [00:38:15] 47% decrease in the incidents of breast cancer as compared to the [00:38:20] general population. So she's comparing her results.
[00:38:23] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:38:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So granted it [00:38:25] is a single
[00:38:26] Dr. Taz: Right. A single
[00:38:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: physician study. Right. Right. She's [00:38:30] comparing her results to the SEER results. Mm-hmm. Our national, [00:38:35] um, data data bank.
[00:38:38] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But she shows a [00:38:40] huge. Decrease in the incidence of breast [00:38:45] cancer in her patient population. Now, in her practice, [00:38:50] not only is she using it for breast cancer prevention, but [00:38:55] she's also using it for breast cancer treatment [00:39:00] in the metastatic population.
[00:39:01] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:39:02] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And getting tremendous results. [00:39:05] So let's back up to the question of why are we not looking for [00:39:10] androgen receptors?
[00:39:11] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because if we look for androgen receptors and we find [00:39:15] them, and testosterone can be used [00:39:20] to treat and reverse breast cancer, how does that [00:39:25] benefit the pharmaceutical industry?
[00:39:27] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:39:29] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:39:30] Because they can't use bioidentical testosterone because you cannot trademark a [00:39:35] molecule of nature. Yeah. So who's doing that study?[00:39:40]
[00:39:40] Dr. Taz: Back to the usual problem we have. So, but what about, okay, so I'm [00:39:45] curious, this is more selfish. I'm curious as someone who's very androgen sensitive.
[00:39:49] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:39:50] Mm-hmm.
[00:39:50] Dr. Taz: Right? Mm-hmm. Like slight increases in testosterone or free testosterone or DHEA, [00:39:55] acne, hair loss, weight gain, all the things.
[00:39:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:39:58] Dr. Taz: We have an androgen [00:40:00] epidemic a little bit with the higher cortisol levels that most women today are experiencing.
[00:40:04] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:04] Dr. Taz: There's a [00:40:05] relationship between cortisol and androgen excess.
[00:40:07] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:40:08] Dr. Taz: So would those women [00:40:10] benefit from testosterone or what, or have we studied those women?
[00:40:14] Dr. Jenn Simmons: They [00:40:15] would, but first of all, you need to know their genetics. You need to see how you need you, [00:40:20] you need to support them. You know, maybe you're giving testosterone along with a [00:40:25] little bit of an aromatase inhibitor to prevent.
[00:40:28] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Too much conversion to [00:40:30] estrogen. You need to see where you need to support their estrogen detoxification pathways. [00:40:35] And like, maybe they also need a five alpha reductase inhibitor. Mm-hmm. So that [00:40:40] you're not converting that testosterone that you're giving them to five alpha.
[00:40:44] Dr. Taz: [00:40:45] Right.
[00:40:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: To the five alpha variant.
[00:40:47] Dr. Taz: Absolutely.
[00:40:47] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So it [00:40:50] can be done, but it has to be done thoughtfully. Yeah. With, with [00:40:55] awareness of the person sitting in front of you [00:41:00] and what effect it has on them. And I also think that we need to, we need to [00:41:05] school people on genetics and the detoxification [00:41:10] pathways. Yes. And, and they also need to be able to [00:41:15] look at the results, look at the metabolites, see where [00:41:20] people are getting in trouble and help them.
[00:41:22] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And we can, if you, if you know the [00:41:25] pathways. You know how to influence the pathways. You can, you can support them. There's
[00:41:29] Dr. Taz: [00:41:30] so much we can do from a proactive, preventive standpoint. And I, and I'm watching my [00:41:35] time, so hopefully we can get there. But, you know, I do wanna touch upon the women that have been [00:41:40] diagnosed with er PR positive breast cancer and have gone on anti-hormone therapy [00:41:45] and then have had much of the fallout of anti-hormone therapy, whether it's [00:41:50] depression or weight gain or joint issues, or all kinds of Yeah.
[00:41:53] Dr. Taz: Metabolic disorders, [00:41:55] right? Yeah.
[00:41:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Awful.
[00:41:55] Dr. Taz: Um, I
[00:41:56] Dr. Jenn Simmons: call her the forgotten woman.
[00:41:57] Dr. Taz: They ask me. [00:42:00] If as a hormone expert, as you mentioned, should I, should they be [00:42:05] off their anti-hormone therapy and is it okay for them to [00:42:10] do very low dose bioidentical hormone replacement therapy with like a [00:42:15] bioidentical, you know, estrogen or bioidentical progesterone?
[00:42:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah. What would you say to those women?
[00:42:19] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah, [00:42:20] so let's, let's look at the data.
[00:42:22] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:42:22] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because we have a lots of [00:42:25] data from the soft trial about suppression of ovarian function [00:42:30] and what we know, and I think Jeffrey Dash writes about this mm-hmm. Brilliantly. Yeah. In [00:42:35] his book, bioidentical Hormones get the one with the puzzle face.
[00:42:39] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Um, [00:42:40] when you deprive the cells of [00:42:45] estrogen for a long enough period of time, what [00:42:50] happens when you start to reintroduce estrogen is that it becomes [00:42:55] very toxic to the cancer cells. It's like. It's like [00:43:00] refeeding.
[00:43:00] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:43:01] Dr. Jenn Simmons: You know that phenomenon of refeeding when you've absolutely had [00:43:05] starvation for a long time.
[00:43:06] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm. And then you, if you refeed too quickly, it's very [00:43:10] toxic. It's the same thing for the cancer [00:43:15] cells. So we know that when we have [00:43:20] women who have been on estrogen deprivation for the purposes of treating the [00:43:25] cancer, about four years is the sweet spot. And [00:43:30] then you start to reintroduce estrogen again.
[00:43:34] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: In the [00:43:35] form of estriol, estradiol, uh, I usually recommend [00:43:40] biased,
[00:43:40] Dr. Taz: right? My favorite.
[00:43:42] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And those women [00:43:45] actually have a far better survival and a decreased risk of recurrence
[00:43:49] Dr. Taz: [00:43:50] four years post. Interesting.
[00:43:53] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:53] Dr. Taz: Well, that's kind of a message of hope [00:43:55] right there.
[00:43:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. Amazing. So for women who have been like [00:44:00] five years on estrogen deprivation therapy, seven years, 10 [00:44:05] years, and they come to me and they want hormone replacement, it's a hell yes for [00:44:10] me.
[00:44:10] Dr. Taz: Amazing.
[00:44:11] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because I know that you're gonna benefit their heart, benefit their [00:44:15] brain, benefit their bones, benefit their joints, benefit their bladder, [00:44:20] and you are not going to increase their risk of recurrence [00:44:25] and you're gonna make them happier.
[00:44:27] Dr. Taz: So, but in this estrogen [00:44:30] replacement or hormone replacement, does it need to be bioidentical?
[00:44:33] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[00:44:34] Dr. Taz: Versus the [00:44:35] traditional estradiol patch And
[00:44:36] Dr. Jenn Simmons: yes.
[00:44:37] Dr. Taz: Progesterone
[00:44:37] Dr. Jenn Simmons: test, I mean, the estradiol patch is [00:44:40] bioidentical. It's just not right. The way that we would do it. Right. Um, but the studies [00:44:45] weren't on. Bioidentical biased. Mm-hmm. The studies [00:44:50] were on the, the well it, they were on [00:44:55] bioidentical progesterone, but some of the studies were on the [00:45:00] progestins.
[00:45:01] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It's just that those are the studies that didn't have the good outcomes.
[00:45:04] Dr. Taz: [00:45:05] Let's do one more triple negative breast cancer.
[00:45:07] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. So the [00:45:10] thing about triple negative breast cancer and what that means is that you don't have estrogen [00:45:15] receptors. You don't have progesterone receptors, you don't have HER two new [00:45:20] protein on these cells.
[00:45:22] Dr. Jenn Simmons: The reason why these are [00:45:25] considered the bad actors.
[00:45:26] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: What the industry will tell you is that we have [00:45:30] less treatment that that against them, that can affect them. We [00:45:35] can't manipulate the HER two protein 'cause it's not there. We can't manipulate the estrogen [00:45:40] receptor 'cause it's not there. The real problem with [00:45:45] that is that.
[00:45:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: When you look at that cell, that cell is a very, [00:45:50] very far departure from the normal breast cell.
[00:45:53] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:45:53] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It is really [00:45:55] mutated. That cell is lost, far gone. [00:46:00] It's very difficult to recreate the environment where [00:46:05] those cells would become normal again, where those cells would become safe again. [00:46:10] So for me, the real challenge with that patient isn't, oh, I can't [00:46:15] use Tamoxifen or Aromatase inhibitors, or [00:46:20] Herceptin or Perjeta or any of the other treatments that are routinely used [00:46:25] for her two positive or ER PR positive, that kind of thing.
[00:46:28] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And I want to get back to [00:46:30] PR positive, but. The real challenge is [00:46:35] why is this person so shifted? Because cancer's a normal response to an [00:46:40] abnormal environment.
[00:46:41] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:46:41] Dr. Jenn Simmons: What is so environmentally shifted [00:46:45] about this person? Where is their toxic burden? Can we find [00:46:50] it? Mm. Can we reverse their toxic burden so that their selves [00:46:55] don't have to feel so threatened?
[00:46:56] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:46:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So that they don't have to be [00:47:00] so uber and overly responsive [00:47:05] to whatever this is happening here.
[00:47:08] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:47:08] Dr. Jenn Simmons: That, that's, [00:47:10] that's, that's where you like to
[00:47:11] Dr. Taz: focus
[00:47:11] Dr. Jenn Simmons: with this patient. Will they respond to [00:47:15] chemotherapy? Yeah, most of them do, but the problem is when you give [00:47:20] these women chemotherapy and their body is already [00:47:25] screaming that I'm toxic.
[00:47:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: That's where the cancer came from in the first [00:47:30] place. And you give these women chemotherapy, you essentially take their immune system out of [00:47:35] the picture. Right? 'cause it destroys, destroys it. The immune system we know that destroys the [00:47:40] immune system. Drives
[00:47:40] Dr. Taz: more inflammation.
[00:47:41] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. So you have some seeming [00:47:45] short term gain because it will get rid of the cancer [00:47:50] temporarily in In many women,
[00:47:52] Dr. Taz: yeah.
[00:47:53] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But the long-term [00:47:55] price that they pay is enormous. And unless you can figure out [00:48:00] where their toxicity is coming from, reverse it, kind of reset their [00:48:05] system, you're not gonna get durable long-term results. And in fact, the [00:48:10] long-term it, it looks pretty bleak in these women. So. [00:48:15] It's, it's not that they don't have aggressive disease, they do, [00:48:20] but our aggressive approach to that woman who is already [00:48:25] suffering, who is already screaming that this world is not [00:48:30] working for them,
[00:48:30] Dr. Taz: right.
[00:48:31] Dr. Jenn Simmons: In the way that they, they have it right now. We're not [00:48:35] serving them, but we're making ourselves feel better by giving them a [00:48:40] drugs and saying, Hey, look at this response that you got big [00:48:45] pat to me on the back. Right? But then they're back in your office a year later with [00:48:50] widespread
[00:48:50] Dr. Taz: metastatic disease.
[00:48:51] Dr. Taz: What's the approach them like I can see somebody listening who's like, well, what am I, what am I supposed to [00:48:55] do? Like I've been diagnosed with triple negative cancer. You know, I've been diagnosed [00:49:00] with ER PR positive cancer. You know, my doctors are saying [00:49:05] mastectomy, you know, chemo, radiation. Yeah. What, what [00:49:10] is it that we should do?
[00:49:11] Dr. Taz: Here's what I've heard from you already, is first decide if it's clinical or [00:49:15] subclinical. Mm-hmm. That seems to be step one.
[00:49:16] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:49:17] Dr. Taz: But then what's step two? What's step three?
[00:49:19] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. So [00:49:20] we need to do like a whole body workup. The [00:49:25] first thing everyone should do is take a breath, take a pause. Know that you [00:49:30] have time.
[00:49:30] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. That, do that like a hundred times [00:49:35] and know that you have time and space with rare exception. There are some [00:49:40] exceptions. You mentioned infa inflammatory breast cancer before.
[00:49:43] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:49:43] Dr. Jenn Simmons: That's an emergency. You don't have [00:49:45] much time.
[00:49:45] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:49:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: You, you need to figure out what's happening and deal with it. [00:49:50] Um, if you have a metastasis to your bone that has [00:49:55] caused a fracture, these are very painful.
[00:49:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. It is nearly [00:50:00] impossible to heal while you are suffering in pain that needs immediate treatment. [00:50:05] If you have mets to the brain. The brain, the skull is a fixed [00:50:10] space and metastatic disease or tumor deposits in your [00:50:15] brain, they cause a lot of swelling, edema. You're not gonna be able [00:50:20] to tolerate a lot of that.
[00:50:21] Dr. Jenn Simmons: That needs immediate treatment and everything [00:50:25] else. You really have time. So figuring out what's happening with [00:50:30] you before committing to treatment is pretty important. [00:50:35] And you have a month to do that. You have two months to do that. Mm-hmm. So [00:50:40] everyone should start by reading my book, the Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer.
[00:50:43] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Okay. And like literally it'll [00:50:45] take you two days. I wrote this in a way that you [00:50:50] can get, get what you need from that book right away
[00:50:54] Dr. Taz: to start a [00:50:55] plan and to
[00:50:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. To
[00:50:55] Dr. Taz: guide you to a certain extent. Yes.
[00:50:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And it's every question that you need to be asking the [00:51:00] surgeon that you need to be asking the medical oncologist, the radiation oncologist, so that you [00:51:05] go in there prepared.
[00:51:06] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:51:07] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:51:10] everyone who gets a breast cancer diagnosis gets a treatment plan. [00:51:15] They're a dime a dozen. Most of them are exactly the same. Mm. Like people talk about going to get a [00:51:20] second opinion all the time. If you get an opinion from a surgeon and you [00:51:25] get another opinion from a surgeon, you're not getting a second opinion.
[00:51:29] Dr. Jenn Simmons: They're [00:51:30] all saying their version of the same exact thing, but a [00:51:35] second opinion from someone like me who's integrative, [00:51:40] who knows and understands the whole conventional side, but then [00:51:45] says. What are you eating? What are you drinking? What are you thinking? Yeah. What, how, what [00:51:50] have your traumas been? How much stress are you under?
[00:51:54] Dr. Jenn Simmons: What? [00:51:55] What is your toxic burden? What are your detoxification practices? How are you moving [00:52:00] your body? How often are you moving your body? And we are looking at [00:52:05] your genetics. We not, not like do you have a BRCA mutation or one of those [00:52:10] things, but we're actually looking at your functional, actionable [00:52:15] genetics and saying, how can we create an environment for you [00:52:20] that fosters health rather than creating disease?
[00:52:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because you cannot [00:52:25] get better in the same environment that you got sick.
[00:52:28] Dr. Taz: So it comes back to whole body [00:52:30] health.
[00:52:30] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It does
[00:52:30] Dr. Taz: how everything is interconnected.
[00:52:33] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm.
[00:52:33] Dr. Taz: And it's whole
[00:52:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:52:35] Plus
[00:52:35] Dr. Taz: I. Didn't think we needed a part three, but now it's looking like we need a part three. [00:52:40] But before, but before I let you go for today, I [00:52:45] do wanna wrap this up into a prevention conversation around breast health.
[00:52:48] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:52:49] Dr. Taz: I know you have [00:52:50] different ideas around screening. If you were to, you know, could wave a [00:52:55] magic wand and told every woman to protect their breast, here's what they need to be [00:53:00] looking for, here's how to screen. What would you tell them?
[00:53:03] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. So this is such an [00:53:05] easy answer. First of all, I think everyone should be doing self-breast examination.
[00:53:09] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Not that [00:53:10] it's gonna find something in its infancy, but the way that [00:53:15] we, I I, I think it's important to know your body and know what your body feels like. And no [00:53:20] one's ever gonna know you better than you know yourself. So everyone should be doing self breast examination, [00:53:25] but. The answer to how everyone should be [00:53:30] screening is already here, and it's in, in the United States, at [00:53:35] least universally available.
[00:53:36] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So it's something called the Aria Tears Test. I don't know if you've heard of this [00:53:40] test.
[00:53:40] Dr. Taz: Well, you educated me on that.
[00:53:41] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So this is an at-home screening kit.
[00:53:44] Dr. Taz: [00:53:45] Mm-hmm.
[00:53:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And it uses your tears. So there's a tiny little [00:53:50] litmus paper that you put inside of your eye. I should have brought you kits, I should. Tiny little [00:53:55] litmus paper that you put inside of your eye.
[00:53:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Close your eye for five minutes, send it off to the [00:54:00] company. It doesn't hurt. You don't have to poke yourself in the eye, make yourself cry, nothing like [00:54:05] that. So a week and a half later, you get your [00:54:10] report and you either have a negative result, in which case [00:54:15] this test has a 93% sensitivity for breast cancer.
[00:54:19] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Wow. If you [00:54:20] don't feel anything in your breast and this test is negative, you don't have breast cancer. [00:54:25] If it is clinically positive, then [00:54:30] you need imaging.
[00:54:31] Dr. Taz: Mm,
[00:54:32] Dr. Jenn Simmons: right?
[00:54:32] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:54:32] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:54:35] now the specificity of this test. Is around [00:54:40] 58%, meaning that 42% of the time, if you don't [00:54:45] have breast cancer, this test is going to be positive.
[00:54:48] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Now, people are outraged by [00:54:50] that. They're like, oh, there's so many false positives to this test. There are [00:54:55] no false positives to this test. This test does not measure for breast cancer. [00:55:00] This measures for the inflammatory precursors of breast cancer, [00:55:05]
[00:55:05] Dr. Taz: so you have inflammation.
[00:55:06] Dr. Jenn Simmons: If you have the inflammation, and this inflammation [00:55:10] happens to be specific to breast cancer.
[00:55:13] Dr. Jenn Simmons: If you have this [00:55:15] specific inflammation elevations in the monomers, the [00:55:20] S 100, a nine, a eight, and S 100, A nine proteins, when you put [00:55:25] them together, the dimer is called calprotectin. I'm sure you've heard of that.
[00:55:28] Dr. Taz: Yes. Oh, yeah.
[00:55:29] Dr. Jenn Simmons: We checked time, but [00:55:30] separately, yeah. Separately. Mm-hmm. These proteins when they are both elevated to [00:55:35] critical levels, are highly predictive of the very early stages of [00:55:40] breast cancer.
[00:55:41] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So if you have a clinically positive result and you do nothing [00:55:45] in six months, 11% will have [00:55:50] clinical evidence of breast cancer. That's how, that's how [00:55:55] predictive this is. Wow. So I tell everyone who gets a clinically [00:56:00] significant result, you need imaging. Absolutely. And if there's something there, you need to act on [00:56:05] it.
[00:56:05] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But if you have nothing on [00:56:10] imaging. Guess what you have? You have the opportunity to prevent [00:56:15] breast cancer. And the way that we do that is we look at your diet. [00:56:20] What are you eating? 80% of our exposure to the [00:56:25] outside world, 80% of what will affect our health is through what we eat and [00:56:30] what we drink. So what are you eating and what are you drinking?
[00:56:33] Dr. Taz: Mm,
[00:56:33] Dr. Jenn Simmons: right. [00:56:35] Diet, drinking, alcohol [00:56:40] avoidance, decrease the number of toxins that you come into [00:56:45] contact with every single day. The average woman before like nine o'clock [00:56:50] in the morning, has already exposed herself to like [00:56:55] 151 toxins or something crazy like that. We need to be far more [00:57:00] conscientious about what we put in on and around us, but in addition.[00:57:05]
[00:57:05] Dr. Jenn Simmons: We need to have detoxification practices. Yes. We need to [00:57:10] be peeing and pooping and moving our bodies and [00:57:15] sweating and breathing. I mean, this is how we part of [00:57:20] detox, get rid of our detox, our toxins, and we need to have these practices. We must, must, [00:57:25] must have these, these practices. I'm gonna ask you this
[00:57:27] Dr. Taz: question 'cause there's so much, you know, in the wellness world right now of [00:57:30] doing this and doing that, is there one modality beyond diet, [00:57:35] exercise, sleep, managing your stress, of course, moving your body, all [00:57:40] these different things.
[00:57:41] Dr. Taz: Is there one modality out there that you've seen that's a great way to detox [00:57:45] quickly?
[00:57:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah, I, I can't say enough about sweating.
[00:57:49] Dr. Taz: Sweating. [00:57:50] So sauna.
[00:57:51] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah,
[00:57:51] Dr. Taz: I love my sauna.
[00:57:52] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. And I think that it [00:57:55] accomplishes so much because when you're in that sauna, yes you do [00:58:00] get that physical, um, benefit of sweating and [00:58:05] just getting the toxins out that way.
[00:58:07] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But if you use that time [00:58:10] wisely, you're also doing your deep breathing.
[00:58:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:58:14] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:58:15] you're getting toxins out that way. You're also doing your [00:58:20] meditation. So you're getting those toxins out from here, those toxins, those toxic [00:58:25] thoughts that have such a profound effect on your [00:58:30] life, your health, how you perceive the world, your stress.
[00:58:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:58:35] So I think that that. 20 minutes or whatever, and you can [00:58:40] keep it to 20 minutes because if you go into your sauna hot, you don't need that much time in [00:58:45] there to warm up.
[00:58:45] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:58:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So I always tell people either go in right after you [00:58:50] exercise, go in after you drink hot tea, something, go in hot [00:58:55] and spend 20 minutes in there doing your deep breathing, doing [00:59:00] your meditation, and you have just really set the stage for [00:59:05] detoxification, shower afterwards, put a shower filter
[00:59:09] Dr. Taz: mm-hmm.
[00:59:09] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:59:10] On your, on your shower head so that that water is filtered and you're rinsing off [00:59:15] toxins. Right. And not bringing in more.
[00:59:16] Dr. Taz: Yep.
[00:59:17] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And then drink your [00:59:20] filtered water afterwards. The, this will go a very long [00:59:25] way towards cleaning out your body.
[00:59:27] Dr. Taz: Wow, that's so helpful and so encouraging. [00:59:30] And you mentioned imaging.
[00:59:32] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:59:32] Dr. Taz: Tell us your favorite way to image.
[00:59:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So. [00:59:35] I just, when, when we're talking about screening and right now I am only talking [00:59:40] about the screening population screening,
[00:59:41] Dr. Taz: prevention
[00:59:42] Dr. Jenn Simmons: screening, we are talking about [00:59:45] healthy women.
[00:59:45] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:59:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Who we have no reason to believe that they have breast cancer.
[00:59:49] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:59:49] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:59:50] Right.
[00:59:50] Dr. Jenn Simmons: In this population, I think it is unethical to [00:59:55] expose them to anything that could harm them.
[00:59:57] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:59:58] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So that's why I don't use [01:00:00] screening mammograms because it is radiation. It's an x-ray. We gave [01:00:05] it a nice pretty name. We gave it mammogram picture of the breast. Mm-hmm. But [01:00:10] it's still a pig. No matter how much lipstick you put on that pig, it's [01:00:15] still a pig.
[01:00:15] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It's an x-ray and in every other situation, x-rays [01:00:20] cause cancer.
[01:00:21] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[01:00:21] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It applies to mammograms too, so don't be [01:00:25] fooled. So I don't use mammogram and I don't use MRI for screening because of the [01:00:30] gadolinium. Mm. And the non-contrast MRIs aren't worth anything. They aren't
[01:00:34] Dr. Taz: worth it. [01:00:35] That's really important for everyone to remember.
[01:00:36] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[01:00:37] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:00:37] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So I [01:00:40] recommend qt.
[01:00:41] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[01:00:42] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Which is sound wave technology [01:00:45] transmitted through a warm water bath. So it's like a spa day for your breast. But take that, [01:00:50] it collects 200,000 times more data points than MRI and creates a [01:00:55] true 3D reconstruction of your breast without pain, without [01:01:00] compression, without radiation, without gadolinium.
[01:01:02] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. So 100% [01:01:05] safe for everyone. There are only a few centers I know across the us. I [01:01:10] mean, my perfection Imaging, which is in the suburbs of Philadelphia, was the first [01:01:15] independent screening center that uses this technology. [01:01:20] That's the bad news. The good news is I'm putting up 50. Amazing. So patient,
[01:01:24] Dr. Taz: yeah,
[01:01:24] Dr. Jenn Simmons: be [01:01:25] patient this year, this next coming year, 2026.
[01:01:29] Dr. Jenn Simmons: You will [01:01:30] see a lot of perfection, imagings coming to a town near you. So be [01:01:35] patient. So
[01:01:35] Dr. Taz: excited.
[01:01:35] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[01:01:36] Dr. Taz: But in the interim, I already told you I'm coming to you. Yes,
[01:01:38] Dr. Jenn Simmons: yes. I'm, I would [01:01:40] love to have you. I'm getting scanned. I would love to have you. Um, and we're putting a second scanner [01:01:45] into my, my facility, Philadelphia location.
[01:01:48] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Awesome. Just because there's a [01:01:50] huge, huge, as you might imagine, yes. A huge, huge, huge demand for this. Right. [01:01:55] Um, if you don't have access. Go get an [01:02:00] ultrasound.
[01:02:00] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[01:02:00] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Now a lot of people, that's very difficult for them because most of [01:02:05] the women's imaging centers will not give you an ultrasound, won't unless won't do [01:02:10] it.
[01:02:10] Dr. Jenn Simmons: You agree to a mammogram, right? So, you know there is something called a [01:02:15] her scan. They have vans. It's a mobile scan. Mobile, yeah.
[01:02:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:02:19] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [01:02:20] And it's better than nothing. Is it great? No, it's not great, but it's better than nothing.
[01:02:24] Dr. Taz: [01:02:25] Okay.
[01:02:25] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Now,
[01:02:27] Dr. Taz: which is an important point by the way guys, we are not saying to [01:02:30] do nothing.
[01:02:31] Dr. Jenn Simmons: No.
[01:02:31] Dr. Taz: This is not about doing nothing. We are
[01:02:32] Dr. Jenn Simmons: not
[01:02:32] Dr. Taz: right. A lot of comments were like [01:02:35] this, you know, I did this, I did that. What are we supposed to do? You have to do something.
[01:02:39] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes, [01:02:40] yes. Do
[01:02:40] Dr. Taz: something. You know,
[01:02:40] Dr. Jenn Simmons: so, but the something,
[01:02:42] Dr. Taz: yeah.
[01:02:42] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Is the ARIA test correct? Like everyone needs [01:02:45] to be doing the ARIA test. Yeah.
[01:02:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Now. I want to be very clear. I am talking [01:02:50] about the asymptomatic population here, right? When I say the only imaging you [01:02:55] should be doing is QT or ultrasound, if you have a lump in your breast, if you have nipple discharge, [01:03:00] if your breast looks different, if your breast is big and red and swollen, if you have new [01:03:05] pain, if you have any new symptom in your breast that you can't explain, [01:03:10] like obviously if you got bumped in the breast and you'd a huge bruise there.
[01:03:13] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm. You can explain that,
[01:03:14] Dr. Taz: right? [01:03:15]
[01:03:15] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I'm not worried about that. Right? If you have a new symptom. [01:03:20] You are not in the screening population, you are on the diagnostic [01:03:25] population. You need to do what you need to do to figure out what is going on there. Mm. You [01:03:30] need to see a breast specialist. Most of the time they are breast surgeons.
[01:03:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And [01:03:35] the breast surgeons only speak the mammogram ultrasound, MR. [01:03:40] Language. You're gonna have to speak their language. You're going to have to get those [01:03:45] studies. Can you prepare your body for those studies? Yes. [01:03:50] I tell people I, I have a, a pre mammogram [01:03:55] or CAT scan or whatever
[01:03:56] Dr. Taz: Right.
[01:03:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Um, radiation emitting [01:04:00] study that you're gonna have.
[01:04:02] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I have people taking high doses of [01:04:05] melatonin and vitamin C and glutathione to prepare your [01:04:10] body with lots of antioxidants that can kind of soak up those free [01:04:15] radicals that are created at the time of radiation and hopefully protect yourself [01:04:20] against the damage of radiation. I also have an MRI protection protocol [01:04:25] to try to prevent your body from absorbing that [01:04:30] gadolinium and facilitate your kidneys.
[01:04:31] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Is this all in your book of excreting? It? It's in my book, it's on [01:04:35] my website. I, I'm trying to help trying your heart. [01:04:40] Get the info out there, trying my hardest. Oh. You know, for all of those [01:04:45] people that you know, what are, what am I to do? Right? These are my only choices. [01:04:50] They're not your only choices.
[01:04:52] Dr. Jenn Simmons: They're the choices that you've been told to do. [01:04:55] And they are depending on you being a good little girl. Mm-hmm. And [01:05:00] just follow along. Mm-hmm. And this comes back to where we started. It's [01:05:05] all about virtue signaling. And am I being a good little girl? [01:05:10] So, do you wanna be a good little girl? Because good little girls who get their mammograms [01:05:15] every year have a higher chance of breast cancer, have a higher chance [01:05:20] of being diagnosed with breast cancer.
[01:05:22] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And every mammogram you get [01:05:25] increases your risk of getting breast cancer. It's the perfect way to [01:05:30] become a patient.
[01:05:31] Dr. Taz: I think we're all tired of being good little girls.
[01:05:33] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I know.
[01:05:33] Dr. Taz: It's, it's a very [01:05:35] tired I
[01:05:35] Dr. Jenn Simmons: know
[01:05:35] Dr. Taz: paradigm that everyone needs to throw off officially.
[01:05:38] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. Well, I, oh
[01:05:39] Dr. Taz: my gosh, [01:05:40] we're
[01:05:40] Dr. Jenn Simmons: the perfect outfit to
[01:05:41] Dr. Taz: not
[01:05:41] Dr. Jenn Simmons: be
[01:05:41] Dr. Taz: a
[01:05:41] Dr. Jenn Simmons: good little
[01:05:42] Dr. Taz: girl,
[01:05:42] Dr. Jenn Simmons: but I, I
[01:05:42] Dr. Taz: definitely look like a good little girl today.
[01:05:44] Dr. Taz: Dressed [01:05:45] like a badass today. I mean, we could continue to go into the weeds [01:05:50] here, but I hope the message that everybody has received is at least to take a breath, slow [01:05:55] down. Yes. Understand your body. Understand that there's more at play here than just [01:06:00] purely just your breast. And I think that's why I'm so passionate about what I do.
[01:06:04] Dr. Taz: Yeah. And [01:06:05] really understanding, wanting everyone to understand, you know, it is whole plus it is putting all of it [01:06:10] together. Yes. No matter whether we're talking about the breast or you're talking about the brain or you're talking about something [01:06:15] else, you have to put everything together. Yes. So, thank you so much.
[01:06:18] Dr. Taz: You're so welcome for coming back. And I'm gonna ask you the same [01:06:20] question again because I can Oh. You know what makes you whole? And let's see if you have the same answer [01:06:25] or if it's changed from season one.
[01:06:28] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah, so I, [01:06:30] it always comes back to God and my family. Yeah.
[01:06:34] Dr. Taz: I don't think it changed. I [01:06:35] think you said that last time too.
[01:06:36] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:06:36] Dr. Taz: Those are the pillars,
[01:06:37] Dr. Jenn Simmons: right? Yeah. I mean, you know, at the end of the [01:06:40] day you're on a big mission. I'm on a big mission and we [01:06:45] were all put on earth by God for our unique [01:06:50] mission, and nothing lights me up. Nothing fills my [01:06:55] cup more than when I know that I am living [01:07:00] my mission, serving my purpose.
[01:07:03] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And. [01:07:05] That is to be a light onto [01:07:10] this world and to love my family [01:07:15] and prepare them for their mission. I mean, that's really what it's about. That
[01:07:19] Dr. Taz: chills [01:07:20] so powerful and that mission shines through. It's so obvious and so [01:07:25] thank you so much for all the work you're doing for all the women all over the world.
[01:07:29] Dr. Taz: We [01:07:30] are so appreciative because I know so many people just feel backed into a [01:07:35] corner. They think they're checking off the boxes and then they don't understand why things sometimes [01:07:40] turn into a different direction. Yeah. So thank you so much. I appreciate it. My
[01:07:43] Dr. Jenn Simmons: pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Oh my
[01:07:44] Dr. Taz: [01:07:45] gosh.
[01:07:45] Dr. Taz: Can't wait for everything. Part three, to
[01:07:47] Dr. Jenn Simmons: come up with another
[01:07:47] Dr. Taz: offer, part three, we need a part three. So [01:07:50] for everyone else watching and listening to this episode, a whole plus, we do post new episodes [01:07:55] every week, and we're only diving deeper as you can see from this [01:08:00] conversation right here. I'll see you guys next time before you go take a second to reflect on [01:08:05] what stood out for you today.
[01:08:06] Dr. Taz: Then if you can leave a quick review wherever [01:08:10] you're listening, it really helps other people discover Whole Plus and start their own [01:08:15] healing journey. And don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Dr. Taz md. I love [01:08:20] hearing how these episodes are supporting you.