Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Speaker: All right.
Recording started.
Yes.
Speaker 2: Morning, Paul.
Speaker: Good morning.
Paul.
Paul, just,
Speaker 2: Paul just sneezed and
I missed pressing the button in
time to record his sneeze on the
podcast, which I'm regretting.
I have become the person who presses
the button that starts the recording,
which was Paul's job for a long time.
Speaker: Massive power.
Yeah.
You're just,
Speaker 2: yes.
Now I, yeah.
I have to think about how I'm gonna.
Take advantage of this.
This new capability.
Speaker: Yeah.
We just caught up.
Tom and I are on this weirdly synchronized
kind of journey where both we're both both
of us are moving into new apartments yeah.
With our partners and it's been
we're just talking about how we're
getting more and more comfortable.
The pendulum is swinging, away
from all these stoic insights
we've had from missing, not having
things we used to take for granted.
And now we have.
That's
Speaker 2: true.
Yes.
Yeah.
So yes, maybe putting some distance
between us and the philosophy
right now 'cause we're back to
our slightly more comfortable.
Yeah.
But it is nice.
I gotta say, sorry.
It's nice.
Sorry.
Sorry, Marcus.
I'm enjoying being a little more
settled in than we were last week.
Speaker: When do you think
stoicism is more important?
When you have all the
comfort or when you don't?
Speaker 2: More important?
Speaker: Or is the idea that you need
stoicism regardless all the time?
Or is it that like stoicism is a
philosophy for when you're moving
into a new apartment and you're
sleeping on the floor kind of thing.
Speaker 2: I know there's I feel
like there's different ways of
thinking about it where, there is
the whole you should think about.
Stoicism every single morning so that
you don't get too comfortable and
too attached to the things you have.
Yeah.
For me, I feel like I have never been
as successful at actually doing that.
That seems like the hard part to me,
where there's I don't feel, I'm not
hungry for the philosophy when I, when
things are good and then it's when.
Things are more challenging
than I want the philosophy.
And yeah, to me, I guess I would say
it's more important in those moments, but
also I feel like maybe there's a skill
in get taking a little bit of it all
the time as opposed to I don't need it.
I don't need it.
I don't need it.
Oh, give me lots.
Speaker: Yeah.
It's like a muscle that you need
to keep active because Yeah.
The human experience
involves ups and downs.
'Cause you could, if you zoom out, you
could look at either of those situations
moving into a new apartment or our
regular lives as insanely luxurious.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: And and so and you're gonna have
ups and downs even if you're not moving.
And so it's I guess it's this muscle Yeah.
That we go to the gym once a week.
Yeah.
We work out, we get we remind,
remind ourselves how to mentally
build barricades against the world.
Go there.
Yeah.
And then just prepare
for the next downturn.
Yeah.
Whatever that might be.
Maybe it's boredom or, difficulties
with moving into a new apartment.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree.
I guess I like it.
I like that framing of it because it
is this abstract insurance against all
the uncertainties of life is the idea
Speaker 4: that
Speaker 2: Yeah.
You don't have to know what's coming next
necessarily for the thing to be helpful.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's cool.
Should we today's a little
bit shorter session on due to
some constraints on my end.
So should we just jump in?
Speaker 2: We ended last episode on
a pretty big like tease as I recall.
There was a next time on, on Tom
and Paul Reed meditations because
we really enjoyed the first
sentence of book eight, number 50.
So I guess let's dive right
into it and give the people
what they've been waiting for.
Speaker: Wait.
Tom.
I know we did 49, but did we.
Speaker 2: So we tease them with the
very first four words of 50 at the end.
The last episode, you see
the fun start to 50 here?
Yeah.
Speaker: And, okay.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: We didn't do
the whole thing though.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Okay.
Number 50, the cucumber is bitter.
Question mark.
Then throw it out.
There are brambles in the path.
Then go around them.
That's all you need to know.
Nothing more.
Don't demand to know
why such things exist.
Anyone who understands the world will
laugh at you just as a carpenter would
If you seem shocked at finding sawdust
in his workshop or a shoemaker at
scraps of leather leftover from work.
Speaker 4: Of
Speaker 2: course they have a place
to dispose of these, but nature
has no door to sweep things out of.
But the wonderful thing about its
workmanship is how faced with that
limitation, it takes everything within
it that seems broken, old and useless,
transforms it into itself and makes new
things from it so that it doesn't need
material from any outside source or
anywhere to dispose of what's left over.
It relies on itself for all it
needs, space, material, and labor.
Speaker: Okay.
We're learning a lot about
nature with the capital N
Speaker 2: in this.
Yeah.
Speaker: Let's talk,
Speaker 2: let's start
with those first two.
Those first couple sentences though.
Yeah.
Like the cucumber is better.
Throw it out.
Brambles in the path.
Go around.
That's all you need to know.
Nothing more.
Speaker: Yeah.
I, okay so obviously.
I very much obviously my mind is
going to just, okay, you're literally
in a life or death situation.
Like just focus on the
next step in front of you.
Like you're terrified.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
It just, I just don't these
analogies don't seem to really
suggest that Oh, that's true.
They're, there's so mundane, they're so so
Speaker: mundane.
They are so mundane.
This is like classic stoicism the
way modern society thinks about it.
Except that the examples
are really mundane.
That is really funny actually.
Speaker 3: These are
Speaker: the kind of most boring
difficulties you could possibly imagine.
There's some brambles in your path.
Imagine someone coming home and be like,
today there were brambles in my paths.
Speaker 2: In my path.
Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
He was talking about his son
being sick in the previous entry.
That's true.
I don't know, maybe he's just coming
out of a meaningful examples here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
Or he is like being, just try like
intentionally picking mundane examples
to make a more abstract point.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But I'm not
sure what does this.
Okay.
I guess is that what you're reading
in terms of the, don't demand
to know why such things exist?
Because if, when I, we were first, when
I first read this, that doesn't make that
much sense to me about I, I guess I'm
just like struggling to imagine the person
who is okay, the cucumber is bitter.
Why does this exist?
But why that's.
Speaker: Yeah.
That is, you're right, that there,
there's something very funny
about the examples he's chosen.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Even.
Speaker: Okay.
And even before we get to the why such
thing exists, like this cucumber thing is
nuts because I'm so used to like, oh, life
gives you lemons make lemonade as the.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true
Speaker: here.
He's advocating for do nothing, throw it
Speaker 2: away.
Trash in the garbage.
Speaker: Yeah, that's true.
That's, this cucumber
was a little bitter boom.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker: Like it's not
even get it outta here.
It's yeah.
Okay.
I, anyway, so yes.
Okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think
that's an interesting point too.
I think
it, so he, these are examples of.
At first, they just seemed like
exam examples of the challenges
and inconveniences of life.
And he's, and I was reading this as
just your job is to like, whatever
roadblocks or annoying things get
handed to you just handle them in the
sensible way to handle them and move on.
Yeah.
And don't get hung up on
it, which seems reasonable.
But then the, his.
This, the latter part of the entry seems
to more be this interesting kind of theory
about how nature is a closed loop system.
And so some of the cha, some of
the challenges you encounter are
because there's that's how nature
deals with its waste basically.
Seems to be, it's ironic
here, ironic because
Speaker: he's starting to
answer why such things exist.
Yes, that's right.
And you said demand to
know the answer to Yes.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right.
Yeah, I think that's a
hundred percent correct.
He,
Speaker: I guess he's doing it for you.
I guess he's but maybe the way
he's defining it is so abstract
and so unfeeling that it answers
that question once and for all.
Once you know that all it's is,
world disposing of its waste.
Yeah, exactly.
Then you'll never have to ask that
question again because it's such a
kind of abstract and boring answer.
Speaker 2: We do have a moment or like
a spot of him being pretty I would say
pedantic and like looking down upon his
reader here, where he says, anyone who
understands the world will laugh at you.
Which is like a very much I
understand this and you silly
reader, do not understand it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's maybe he's writing, maybe the
intended audience are stupid people and
he's he doesn't follow this philosophy
but the people reading this should,
Speaker 4: yeah.
Speaker: Like he's writing
this for the soldiers, right?
Yes.
You don't need to think
about why such things exist
Like any of those thoughts, a
commander would laugh at you.
And all you need to know is that, nature
relies on itself for all its needs.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Go around.
Yes, it does seem it, I could
hear this as a, whatever.
Yes.
A military commander saying it
to his soldiers just fix the
problem that's in front of you.
Don't Yeah.
We don't need, we don't need to
philosophize about every single one.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Because
Speaker 2: I've been doing all the
philosophizing back home in my tent and
there's no, there's believe no need.
Yeah.
It's all that part's taken care of.
Speaker: I've figured.
Figured it all out.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Okay.
This is a little bit of
a mean interpretation.
Can we go do our exercise of
giving Marcus all of generosity?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Okay.
So we already talked about it.
That'd be the first couple sentences.
I do think there is just a
straightforward, stoic hey, like problems,
Just do the thing you're supposed to do.
Don't, yeah.
Nothing more complicated than that.
Speaker: Yeah.
And then maybe the examples of the like.
I guess the wood the carpenter
is the master carpenter.
Master maker y yeah.
Is the master of the workshop.
And the analogy there is like God or
nature is the master of the world.
And so in the same way that a carpenter
would laugh at you for complaint
for complaining about sawdust in his
workshop, nature would laugh at you for.
Being worried about cucumbers or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
So maybe the anyone who
understands the world is not
really like a person necessarily.
I was interpreting it maliciously
as like he means himself, but he
could, it could be like, humans
can't understand the world and so the
anyone who understands the world is
god's or nature itself or whatever
and they will laugh at you for Yeah.
Trying to.
The being shocked, I guess that yeah.
These inconveniences exist.
Speaker: Yeah.
Okay.
That's generous.
I still it's a little bit tough
to be generous on this one.
It's very easy.
Yeah.
As Marcus is like sometimes a little
baby and eats a bitter cucumber and
has a whole existential crisis over it.
Yes.
And then still work his like claw his
way back to reality every single time.
Yeah.
As soon as he bites into a
better cucumber, he's like, why
Speaker 4: does
Speaker: this
Speaker 2: exist?
Yes, I agree.
But in his defense, I agree with that.
I think that is what's going on with him.
He does some nice, like he comes
to some pretty fun, interesting
theories about oh, this exists.
Because Earth has unlike the wood
shop where the, there's a plan
for disposing the of the saw dust.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Nature has no track bin.
So sometimes I have to
eat a bitter cucumber.
Is, yeah.
Speaker: That's, that is the analogy.
And that,
Speaker 2: ah, I kinda like it.
I don't think I would've arrived
at that conclusion necessarily.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyway, I don't hate it,
but I agree with you.
It's a little hard to fully
get on board with him.
I still am really agreeing with
your point about he tells us not
to demand why such things exist
and then goes ahead and answers the
question of why such things exist.
It's hard to, it's hard for
me to get past that part.
Speaker: It's.
You're like this analysis you're
doing at the level of, sawdust
needs to get disposed of as do
cucumbers is I think a weird one.
He's advocating.
The analogy is, okay,
you found some sawdust.
You found a cucumber, and you need
to just leave it there so that in the
regular process of getting rid of sawdust.
It will be taken care of
or something like that.
What's the, if we're just gonna
equate sawdust to cucumbers,
then how does this work?
Speaker 2: I, my under, I guess
the way I was parsing it is like.
Nature has no trash bin.
And so it's built this whole system
where like vegetables, rot, and
decay, and then turn into soil
and then all this other stuff.
And so you just throw it, are just, yeah.
So just throw it and then nature
will do its disposal thing with it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So the analogy of eating
a bitter cucumber.
Is similar to the it is analogous
to pa trying to take, wood chips
out of a workshop or whatever,
like sawdust out of a workshop.
Like individually, like scooping
it out individually or something.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's some bad
process for for dealing with
Speaker: it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
It's a, it is a weird analogy, but that
does seem to be what the, and that's at
least my best way of understanding how he
is the metaphor he is drawing here is Yes.
They're both about these systems have
processes for dealing with waste.
Yeah.
And if you go in there and I'm like,
are like, oh my God, there's waste.
How can this be, let me get involved.
You're being dumb.
Like just let the normal process work.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
This is a very complicated way to
convince soldiers to do their jobs.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker: So be it.
It's,
Speaker 2: yes.
Especially the first sentence too.
I feel like, especially in the
military or whatever, I would
think of the cucumber is bitter.
I know bad.
Eat it.
Like you need who cares?
I know.
I know.
It's
Speaker: There's a style
of, about persuasion.
Like persuasion through confusion.
Yeah.
You just, it's here's why you should
throw away this, and it's just like people
are like, by the end of it please stop.
Please stop.
Yeah.
Just I'll do whatever you want.
Speaker 2: I'll yes.
Yeah.
Speaker 4: Okay, cool.
Speaker 2: Proof.
Proof by intimidation
is a similar concept.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
There's a little bit of that
going on here, for sure.
Okay.
Number 51.
No carelessness in your actions.
No confusion in your words.
No imprecision in your thoughts.
No retreating into your own
soul or trying to escape it.
No overactivity.
They kill you, cut you with
knives, shower you with curses.
That somehow cuts your mind
off from clearness and sanity
and self-control and justice.
A man standing by a spring of clear
sweet water and cursing it while the
fresh water keeps on bubbling up,
he can shovel mud into it or dung
and the stream will carry it away.
Wash itself clean, remain
unstained to have that.
Not a cistern, but a perpetual spring.
How by working to win your freedom.
Hour by hour through
patience, honesty, humility.
Speaker: I think he's practicing speeches.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he is.
He is getting a little more speechified.
Yeah.
Because
Speaker: by working to win your
freedom, sounds I just, it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
What's your part says that's
actually about soldiers or
slaves or something like that.
Yeah, I think
Speaker: that's literal.
I think you, you catch some gu,
some gulls, and then you force them
into, and you say if you surf for
20 years, you can go back and we'll
give you a small plot of land.
Yeah.
That's how I, that was
like a thing Romans did.
Speaker 2: Could be, yeah.
Speaker: The other interpretation
is a more freedom from
Speaker 2: abstract Yes.
Earth fleet virus.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
From the passions.
Speaker: Yeah.
Okay.
Yes.
Alright.
I
Speaker 2: agree that this does
seem literal.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah,
Speaker 2: he is got a nice analogy
here, but I want to dig into a
little bit about something in life.
Is this spring of Clear sweet water?
Yeah.
That we're all presented with.
Yeah.
And we can, if we so choose,
or he's implying that some of
us look at that spring and we
curse it and throw mud into it.
That spring, we think is what it's
the, it's human experience and yeah.
It's like all the, all it.
I guess from the proceeding paragraph,
the implication seems to be that
it's like being mistreated basically.
He's saying like, all right, these
people come for you and they try
to cut you with their knives and
shower you with their curses.
Speaker: Oh, so you think that
other people are shoveling
mud and d into your stream?
N
Speaker 2: I'm not sure.
Maybe.
Or the stream is the
knives and the curses.
This, you could take the
experience of being cut with
knives and showered with curses and
Speaker 4: Use it
Speaker 2: as a way to purify yourself
and be in touch with your most.
Your deepest virtues.
Speaker: Oh my,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
That's just how those two
paragraphs read together to me.
Otherwise, it's just like a hard
left turn from they kill you, cut
you with knives, j you with curses
that somehow cuts your mind off from
clearness sanity, self-control justice.
Speaker: Okay let's follow that string.
So he's saying that.
All these things happening to you,
people trying to kill you and curse you.
Is Sweetwater, is that
Speaker 2: I don't, I think so.
That is what I'm suggesting.
Okay.
That's a, that's,
Speaker: I'm not
Speaker 2: committed to that reading,
but that was the first way it struck me.
Speaker: That is a more linear reading.
Yep.
Yeah.
And then in that reading, it's it's and
the reason that's the case is because
everything that comes from na, everything
that's outside of your control is sacred.
And so there's no, it is Sweetwater.
Like you, you shouldn't curse it.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
You all the world is an opportunity
to get in touch with clearness and
sanity and self-control and justice.
That is regardless of,
Speaker 3: yeah.
Speaker 2: Re regardless of what.
It's made of.
Yeah.
Even if it is curses and knives.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think so.
I think like a one step towards that
direction makes a little bit more sense to
Speaker 4: me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Where the spring isn't the actual
knives and curses, it's this abstract,
slightly more abstract idea of
becoming the best version of yourself.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker: And achieving this
like stoic nirvana and then
the shoveling mud and D is the.
It's parallel to dives and curses.
Speaker 2: But the, to me, the,
to me, the shoveling mud and DI
guess has to be something that
you the owner of the spring do.
It can't be something that
other people are doing to you.
I get, so I'm reading it as a
man is standing, he can shovel.
Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I, so I'm reading that
as letting yourself.
Letting your mind be cut off from the
virtues is equivalent to shoveling
dung into the stream, basically.
Speaker: That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I see.
That's fair.
That's fair.
And that somehow cuts your mind off
from clearness, sanity and self-control.
So that's you shoveling mud
and poop into your stream.
Yeah.
And, okay.
One thing I like about it,
about this analogy is that it's.
Like a stream does, wash itself clean.
Yes.
Over time.
That's my favorite
Speaker 4: part.
That's my favorite part.
Yes.
So it's less
Speaker: about oh you made a mistake
at some point, and it's over.
It's oh, you can restart at any time.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's a very forgiving Yes.
I totally agree.
This is, that is the thing that
leapt out to me is very appealing
about this metaphor right
Speaker 4: away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 4: Forgiving.
Okay.
Speaker 2: So a little.
Whatever he's being a little dramatic
maybe or something with the cutting you
with knives and showering you with curses.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But yes.
We've talked, this is not the first time
he is invoked the idea of flowing water
as a metaphor for the experience of life.
Yeah.
I think that's one that he comes back to.
But it's nice.
It works well metaphorically with what he
is talking about, but yeah in this case,
you're not in the flowing water, which
sometimes is how they, this allergy works.
Yeah.
You just own it.
Speaker: You it's your
drive to win freedom through
patient's humility and honesty.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker: Which is cool.
Like this is the one, one of the
few times that Marcus gives us like
a thing that you're supposed to do.
Yes.
Something a little bit more
specific, like winning your freedom.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
Yeah.
That's, that, that's an interesting point.
Although there's still, I think, a fair
question about how literal he's being with
the concept of is it literally soldiers
winning their freedom versus just the
kind of more abstract freedom of the mind?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
The
Speaker 4: yeah, there's a
Speaker 2: list right at the beginning
that we jumped past about where he's
just doing his normal thing where
he says, no, no carelessness in
your actions, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker: Just short sentences like just so
Speaker 2: hard.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Two,
Speaker 2: two of them stand out to me.
No imprecision in your thoughts.
Yeah, that's nuts.
It seems insane, that's
like whatever, right?
It's an, it is an ideal to, to,
Speaker 4: yeah.
Speaker 2: Strive towards, but boy,
that, that's a tough one to live up to
Marcus, but then also no retreating into
your own soul or trying to escape it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: We just had an entry last
week, I think, about the mind being
a fortress kind of and true I guess
I'm curious what you make of the
difference between this and that.
Speaker: Yeah.
This
Speaker 2: is about retreating
into your soul as opposed to
retreating into your mind.
I think your mind
Speaker: That's true actually.
Maybe that's the difference.
So yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Non generous reading
Speaker: is being hypocritical.
I think the generous one is that he
sees some distinction between those two.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree.
I'm more interested in
that generous rating.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I wonder what to him, the
concept of retreating into your own
soul, to me that seems better than
retreating into your mind just as well.
Maybe a mic is as a moderat reader,
Speaker: rational.
Maybe.
Maybe it's like rational and practical
or whatever, and lo logical and clear,
and then the soul is emotional and, okay.
The retreating into your soul
would be like believing that you're
a really sad victim and asking,
why is this happening to me?
This is not fair.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Means,
Speaker 2: yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
There, there's, there definitely
seems like there's a yes.
A thing about foregoing
logic or retreating from the
The virtues of the mind that he sees.
Speaker 4: I wonder
Speaker 2: what I, I.
I would love him to just like list,
I would, he's not gonna do this, but
like a list of, here are the virtues
associated with the mind and here are
the virtues associated with the soul.
Yeah.
Because I think we, we think of
those as being different lists.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Whereas he just does he's
listing all this stuff like clearness,
sanity, self-control, justice.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Patience, honesty, humility.
The implications seem to be that those
all stem from the mind and not the soul.
Speaker: Yeah.
I to Tom was asking for clarity.
We can, yeah.
Okay.
Alright.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Fine.
No I agree.
We can, I think we just have
to build that list ourselves.
Yeah.
So all of those nice virtues
are the mind and then all that.
Yes.
Speaker 2: What does he
think exists in the soul?
Yeah, exactly.
His what is, what are souls there?
Speaker: I don't know, fear
and passion and yeah yeah.
I don't know.
I think this is an outdated way of
thinking about emotions versus yeah.
Speaker 2: Logic.
Yeah.
Speaker: Thought but that's
probably what he's thinking about.
Yeah.
I think emotions are just
like a shortcut to logic.
Like they're faster.
Than trying to think through something.
And that's their value.
They're like a hash table for logic.
Like instead of having to think
through something, you can
just feel in a millisecond and
make a decision very quickly.
Yeah.
But yeah, anyway.
I, okay, but if we step back so
stepping back from the way he's
phrasing this stuff, the core concept
is absolutely mind boggling, right?
This idea that.
How many of us actually do this?
We like sit down, we
define our clear spring.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker: What actually matters,
which is like a layer removed from
the day-to-day, even the fact that
people are trying to kill you, right?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker: And believe it
so much that you can.
You're okay with you can live
a meaningful life despite it,
constantly being cursed and attacked.
That's Yeah.
Crazy concept.
That's so powerful.
Yeah.
I don't think any of us do that.
Do if gun to your head, do
you have a Okay, here's.
What's the meta goal for your life?
Like you have, if I ask you what are
you trying to, what do you want in the
next five years, you're gonna be like
I'd to have I'd like to get married.
I'd like to like,
Speaker 2: Maybe accomplish X, Y, Z.
Yeah, accomplish X,
Speaker: Y, Z.
But that's not what he's asking.
Or like he's saying, that's
not what you should be saying.
Speaker 2: I agree.
I like that.
I think, it reminds me of stories you
hear about people who work, who live
very humble lives and they work on
some big projects their whole life
or whatever, and like maybe don't get
much recognition for it or whatever.
I imagine that people.
Whose lives are like that, have to be
in touch with some kind of process like
the one that Marcus is describing here,
because otherwise the idea of just
like working repetitively on something
that you don't get recognized for and
maybe the progress is really slow on.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Would be too hard.
Speaker: I think so.
I get my mind goes there too.
The.
The thing that gets me excited is
having someone fully engaged in the
sort of regular world, if you will.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker: And still be
able to think this way.
So here, so the sort of, the example
we talked about before is just let's
say the actual point of your life that
is, is to have cool dinner stories,
Speaker 3: right?
Speaker: Let's say that, that's obviously
a little bit shallow, but let's say that's
the actual goal then all of a sudden Yeah.
It's I want, yes.
My goal is to, I don't know, make this
company successful, but the reason I
wanna make this company successful is
because through success it'll probably
become more interesting stories I'll have.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Yep.
Speaker: And okay.
Yeah, it didn't work out.
I, I got fired, but then but that
was an interesting story too.
So you're you have some Plato's cave or
whatever of what you like, the second
dimension of what you care about.
And that's very powerful.
And I don't, I think most
of us haven't defined.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker: Like that.
Even
Speaker 2: he, yes.
Even he is doing that
fairly abstractly, right?
Yeah.
It's like his second layer goal is this
like being in touch like cultivating
abstract freedom and like just Yeah.
Being in touch with
these virtues, basically.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
It's I would guess that most of
us if really pressed on it, it's
some version of be a good person.
Or, and then you define
good, however you define it.
Patience, honesty, humility,
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker: Kindness.
And then and that's slightly different
for each of us, but wisdom but I
just think we often lose sight of
that, that that achievement doesn't
actually, may not actually directly
map to making you a better person.
A wine.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yep.
Yes, I agree.
He seems to yes.
That muscle of okay I'm making the
day-to-day decisions in my life,
but I'm also gonna check if they're
aligned with the broader purposes of
what I want to be doing all the time.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is challenging.
But I think it's something that we see
Marcus flexing over and over again in this
book, and that's part of part of the point
of reading it is to be in touch with that.
But I agree.
It's, I dig this.
Yes.
I like, this is a real philosophy.
Yeah.
And we use that word a lot, but to me this
is like what that word means in the sense
of a way of thinking about what Yeah.
Make decisions in the world and have an
organized body of thought to do that with.
Speaker: Yeah.
Do you, what's your,
like gun to your head?
What's your.
What is what is yours?
Speaker 2: What is it?
Yeah.
I think the only thing that, it's
gonna be vague and wishy-washy
like Marcus is, but I think the
thing that I differ from him on.
Is that the emphasis for me would be
a little bit more other focused or
community focused or relationship focused.
Whereas his version of this is
like the high meta level thing
that you're supposed to do.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Is
Speaker 2: cult is about ultimately
your own mind and your own
experience of living in the world.
I think, to me the high metal
level point is more about.
Deepening relationships and giving, giving
to people you love and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: It
Speaker 2: seems that to me is like
the underlying point of the stuff I do.
Yeah, that's where it's a place where
I part ways with Marcus at times
because he can be so individualistic.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
He's thrown us for loops.
Sometimes it, he's had, yes, he does have
Speaker 2: these little, yes, these
unexpected little geysers of affection
and clothes in his but then in an
entry like this, it feels to me
like there's a room to say something
about Yeah, your fellow man, and it's
only about them showering you with
curses or cutting you with knives.
Yeah.
What about you do you have something
similar that you try to align with?
Speaker: It probably does change yeah,
like I think earlier, I think earlier on
in life it was probably just a combination
of two things like wisdom and integrity.
Like I, I want to collect stories, not
really for sharing with other people
necessarily, but just for myself.
Like I just wanna Yeah.
Understand what I wanna know the human
experience better and have, yeah.
Principles and that around
how I think about them.
And then I want to engage in
a high integrity way, right?
Nothing is more important
than, doing things kindly and
fairly and with integrity.
And then I think you're right.
I think over time it's like there,
now that I, we, that I have a family
but no kids yet, it's starting
to shift over to okay it's about.
Community and family
and support and stuff.
But yeah it's been interesting
an interesting transition.
Yeah.
I like there are ways that can
lead you astray too, right?
Like I think a lot of parents all of
a sudden, like new parents are like,
oh my gosh, the whole purpose of
my life is to support my child now,
Speaker 4: right?
Yeah.
Speaker: And then.
And then let's say that child
dies, or not to be super dark.
Yeah.
Like it's tough to, you
have to pick carefully.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree.
Yeah.
It opens yourself up to a lot of
risk and fear and stuff too, I think.
Yeah.
I think on a slightly smaller scale,
something that, I think we've talked
about, and I've talked about with Aparna
as we, we are merging our lives is
like the whole, when you enter into a
relationship like a marriage, how do you
preserve your own individual sense of
identity versus the combined relationship
identity, which I feel like is, there's
a similar thing there too, where it's
very tempting or there's a natural
instinct when you're like, oh, okay,
cool, we're gonna be together forever.
Let's just fuse into one person
and let me forget about all
the stuff that I was like.
Before.
Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think there's wisdom
in not doing that and in trying to,
still say, wait a minute we should have
our own individual lives in addition
to this joint one we're building.
Speaker: And it's, and the path to
supporting your loved ones isn't.
It may not actually be the linear
kind of, just quit your job and
take care of them all day like that.
That's probably Exactly,
there's a, there are steps,
there's complexity there
Speaker 2: totally.
Which is what makes it
hard, unfortunately.
Like you, you have kids and then
there's this question of Yes.
How much do you,
Speaker 4: yeah.
Speaker 2: Hover over them and do
everything with them and for them
versus le lead your own life and
let them learn through the model
of the life that you are leading.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
'cause on one, one on one side of the
spectrum is quit your job and take,
try to take care of 'em all day.
And the other side is just earn as much
money as possible and give it all to them.
And neither one is probably great.
So
Speaker 2: yes, you have to navigate this
middle thing and it's, yeah part of why.
Lots of kids look at their parents
and say, oh, they did it wrong.
They were trying to strike
a pretty hard balance.
Speaker: And and maybe they yeah, and
maybe they basically didn't have 'cause
you could argue that make sure my kids
don't grow up poor is a, is it is the
same thing as get this promotion at work.
It's too, it's too external.
And you should, and it's not.
The spring water.
It's not the clear water that,
that Marcus was describing here.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker: Yes.
And so you have to dig a layer deeper,
Speaker 2: Yeah.
What's important about that.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
All right.
Tom, I mentioned I had that hard stop.
I'm gonna Yes.
Gonna call here.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Let's have it there.
I enjoyed that conversation.
We did two riess, but
they were nice and meaty.
I think so.
Yep.
Yep.
Yeah.
Speaker: Nice.
Thank you, Tom.
Speaker 2: Cool.