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Too many leaders assume trust should be unconditional — but Scripture tells a different story.
In this season finale of Behind the Seal, bestselling author and Proverbs 31 Ministries president Lysa TerKeurst reveals why unconditional trust is not only unbiblical, but unsafe — and how to rebuild trust with wisdom, boundaries, and Spirit-led discernment.
Lysa unpacks the difference between blind trust and wise trust, why forgiveness is ultimately about your freedom, and how to discern between a triggered fear and a legitimate red flag. She also shares from her own journey through heartbreak, healing, and surrender — and what it truly looks like to walk forward without becoming hardened, bitter, or closed off.
If you’ve ever been hurt, betrayed, or left wondering if trust is even possible again — in ministry, leadership, or life — this episode will meet you right where you are.
About Lysa TerKeurst
Lysa TerKeurst is president and chief visionary officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries and the author of eight New York Times bestsellers, including I Want to Trust You, but I Don’t, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes, Forgiving What You Can’t Forget, and It’s Not Supposed to Be This Way. She enjoys life with her husband Chaz and her kids and grandkids. Connect with her at www.LysaTerKeurst.com
or on social media @LysaTerKeurst.
or on social media @LysaTerKeurst.
Additional Resources
· I Want to Trust You, but I Don’t – Lysa TerKeurst
· Forgiving What You Can’t Forget – Lysa TerKeurst
· Good Boundaries and Goodbyes – Lysa TerKeurst
· Therapy & Theology Podcast with Lysa TerKeurst, Dr. Joel Muddamalle & Jim Cress
· American Association of Christian Counselors (AACC) – for counseling referrals
· ECFA.org/LeaderCare – Resources for healthy, trustworthy leadership
If this conversation encouraged you, share it with someone navigating hurt, healing, or rebuilding trust.
💬 Comment below: What part of Lysa’s wisdom on trust or forgiveness resonated with you most?
🎧 And don’t forget to like, share, and subscribe for more conversations on healthy leadership, emotional integrity, and stewarding influence with wisdom.
Creators and Guests
Guest
Lysa TerKeurst
Lysa TerKeurst is president and chief visionary officer of Proverbs 31 Ministries and the author of eight New York Times bestsellers, including I Want to Trust You, but I Don’t, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes, Forgiving What You Can’t Forget, and It’s Not Supposed to Be This Way. She enjoys life with her husband Chaz and her kids and grandkids. Connect with her at www.LysaTerKeurst.com or on social media @LysaTerKeurst.
What is Behind the Seal?
ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?
Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.
BTS S3 Lysa TerKeurst Full Episode Mix
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[00:00:00] Lysa TerKerust: Having your trust broken can be life altering, but it doesn't have to be life ruining. Genesis 50 20 is probably one of the most hope-filled verses, and it's when Joseph says to the brothers that betrayed him and hurt him, "you intended to harm me, but God intended it for good." God's intention is what will win in the end.
No human is more powerful than God.
[00:00:28] Ryan Gordon: Let's be honest, we're living in a time when trust feels fragile, whether it's in our relationships, our churches, or even our own hearts, rebuilding trust can feel impossible, and that's why I'm so excited about today's episode with Lysa Turkers. She and our host, Michael Martin, have a candid conversation about broken trust and how to repair it, not blindly but wisely.
I loved this interview. Lysa reminded me that we can forgive without forgetting wisdom, and that real surrender isn't giving up. It's faithful stewardship. It's about releasing control and trusting God with the outcome, even when life doesn't look the way we hoped. You're gonna wanna lean in for this one.
Let's dive in.
[00:01:17] Michael Martin: Hey Lysa, it's so good to see you. Welcome to the ECFA podcast.
[00:01:20] Lysa TerKerust: Thank you. I'm so honored to be your guest today.
[00:01:24] Michael Martin: Thank you. I always say like, anytime we're together is a gift. Um, you've just been, uh, not only are we proud to partner with Proverbs 31 as a ECFA accredited member, but your friendship has just meant so much to me personally, your service on the ECFA board.
And so yeah. Thanks for joining us for our conversation today.
[00:01:41] Lysa TerKerust: Absolutely. And I feel the same way. We are so grateful to have the wisdom and guidance of ECFA, and I always say, I, I wish that every Christian ministry, every church, um, could take part in the benefits of what ECFA offers to those of us who wanna take financial accountability very, very seriously.
So thank you, Michael, for all the hard work that you and your team do every, every day. It's amazing.
[00:02:09] Michael Martin: Well, thank you. We consider you part of our team. Good. Um, we really do. And you know, you share in the passion for E CFA's mission, which is all about trust, enhancing trust. And so today's conversation is really all about that too, in terms of trust and, um, there's a lot we can say about that, but I wanted to anchor us in this, Lysa.
So, um, there is a very real trust gap. I think it's a Gallup organization that says, today tragically, only one out of three Americans say that they highly trust the church. Wow. And so at ECFA, we've got our work cut out for us when it comes to enhancing trust.
[00:02:46] Lysa TerKerust: Yeah, well, trust is the oxygen of all human relationships, and so you starve a relationship of trust and you'll starve at a vibrancy and potentially even starve it to death.
So, and I think the, the [00:03:00] onus of repair needs to be. On the one who it's perceived or who is the one who broke trust. And so, you know, I think that there's some good, positive, productive work that can be done on the side of repairing trust. And we have to remember, for every rip in trust, there has to be a repair.
So, you know, it's like nine miles in, nine miles out. It, you know, if, if there's been damage done, then there needs to be work to repair that damage.
[00:03:29] Michael Martin: That's exactly right. I feel like there's, um. For us as leaders of organizations, of ministries, like there's a level of healthy self-reflection that we need to do.
And then when I think about that one in three statistic, I think about the fact that there's probably a large number that are in that group that would say, I want to trust you, but I don't. And that's a perfect segue because you wrote a book, I want to trust you, but I don't, um, I just feel like. Within the Christian community, that is a huge sentiment.
So whatever it is that we can do, like you said, to help, uh, repair some of those rips, um, glean from the insight that you have, we're just looking forward to that. Um, and this is the Behind the SEAL podcast. So we go behind the scenes with our ECFA members, uh, and their leaders. And so, uh, before we kind of jump into some of the, the tips that you may have around trust, I'd love to even just hear what was a personal journey for you like.
Writing the book. Um, I want to trust you, but I don't.
[00:04:29] Lysa TerKerust: Well, I write about what I struggle with and so you can look at the titles of my books and identify all of my issues pretty quickly. And so, you know, my past couple of books are forgiving what you can't forget. So that's obvious. That's about my journey and honestly my struggle.
To forgive some of the deepest hurts that I've walked through. Um, and then good boundaries and goodbyes. You know, I really stink sometimes at boundaries, and so I needed a resource that was written by and for someone who understands the appropriate angst and you know of. Of knowing that I need healthy boundaries, but feeling like I just am not quite getting it right.
And I couldn't find that book and so I decided to write it. Um, and in that one, provide a lot of scripts for people to borrow in boundary conversations. And then right behind that. You know, the next issue the Lord wanted me to work on was my trust issues. Because when you've had your trust broken by one person, sometimes it can feel like you become skeptical of many other people.
And especially in my situation, you know, my, the one of the deepest betrayals, the deepest wounding that I ever walked through, was walking through an unwanted divorce, and it was really, really hard. The person that I. Thought I could trust the most, became someone that. [00:06:00] I had to, I had to recognize like this, this person is the one that, that has broken my trust.
And, and I think what's complicated in relational breaks of trust is sometimes it's not just one break, it's not just one instance. You know, it can happen over and over and over and over. And so my journey to, I wanted to be the person who. Acknowledges I was hurt, but I don't wanna live hurt and I don't wanna take the brokenness that came from this relationship and suddenly let it hinder or harm all of my relationships because I've, I, I knew that I needed to.
To have appropriate levels of trust in my other relationships. And it's not fair to punish people who didn't hurt you because of the hurt of one person. And so it became a journey, and I knew that I wanted to write this book with gut, honesty, reflection, not minimizing. The hurt of broken trust, but also walking slowly through what can be done to repair trust and also, you know, how do we have the appropriate discernment of who it is wise to trust and who it's not wise to trust because sometimes broken trust gives us.
Um, a lot of information that maybe it's not wise to trust this person. So there was just a lot I wanted to work through and, um, and this book became a significant part of my learning experience and my journey with the Lord. And so I wanted to write about it.
[00:07:38] Michael Martin: Well, the heart of that certainly comes across, you know, as, as one's reading the book.
And so I just, yeah, I want to dive into some of those themes. Lysa, you write that broken trust can be life altering, but it doesn't have to be life ruining. And while we may be victims of hurt, we don't have to live as victims. And so just in processing that, I think. For those who are, you know, part of our podcast community here, um, what would you say, how do we hold that, that tension of acknowledging real pain while at the same time not allowing that to define us.
Um, and I think that's true both on, as you said earlier, Lysa, the personal level as well as for organizational
[00:08:23] Lysa TerKerust: trust. Yeah. I think there's sometimes this issue where we know as Christians, we're supposed to forgive and. We have a lot of misunderstandings around forgiveness because it can seem like forgiveness is an unfair gift we have to give to the person who hurt us the most.
And you know, that's really not what forgiveness is. Forgiveness is God's prescription for the hurting human heart to heal and why I am starting. A conversation about trust off with forgiveness is sometimes we conflate God's command to forgive and [00:09:00] think that that means we automatically have to reconcile and trust that person again.
But while God's command to forgive is absolute god's. Desire for us to be in healthy relationships. You know, God does not demand that we reconcile with someone who is still hurting or that we trust someone who is not trustworthy. So, you know, reconciliation and trust are very conditional, even if forgiveness is unconditional.
And I just think that we need to do some work to break apart those concepts because part of learning not to live hurt is walking through the journey of. Forgiveness. Every trauma that we experience is two parts. It's fact and impact. So every forgiveness journey needs to be two parts. We forgive for the fact of what happened, but then we must walk through the much longer process of learning to forgive for the impact, the cost that that had on us.
And I think that sometimes we minimize. The cost of what someone else did to us, like how it wounded us, how it hurt us. So we minimize that and then we maximize the little scraps of love they may have given us in the past. And it's really important to have a right view of reality. Mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs, and I believe one of the most.
One of the most powerful prepositions in all of the Bible is the word through. So we can't just get over it. We don't wanna go around it. We don't wanna deny it and pretend like it doesn't exist, and we don't wanna develop unhealthy coping mechanisms to numb it. No, we really do have to go through it. We have to go through the pain because unhealed pain will come out sideways.
So. The forgiveness journey has to be a part of the trust journey, and we can forgive, but that does not mean we automatically trust. Trust should be very conditional, and the only way to build or rebuild trust is time plus believable behavior. In other words, it's gonna take a stretch of time. The more significant, the more significant the wounding is, the more significant the amount of time it will take.
But in that course of time, there has to be humility. Repentance, a true sense of owning what they did. Maybe even a desire for restitution, but mostly trustworthy behavior over and over and over and over because trust is built time plus believable behavior.
[00:11:51] Michael Martin: So good. I appreciate you bringing all of that out.
So, um. Are you saying, Lysa, that in order to get to a place of [00:12:00] trust, forgiveness is, it always needs to come first? Like, is that part of preparing the heart for, you know, some of these other things that we're gonna talk about is forgiveness that first place?
[00:12:10] Lysa TerKerust: Well, forgiveness is God's prescription for the hurting human heart to heal.
And so what I don't want someone to hear is I don't want you to hear, Hey, you need to fake it until you make it. Like you need to fake forgiveness and just check that off this list. You know, there are two separate journeys, the journey to forgiveness. Is not, it's, it's not an unfair gift we have to give to the person who hurt us the most.
It's us putting a stake in the ground saying, I deserve to stop suffering because of what another person has done to me. And even if they never change. Even if they're unwilling or incapable of changing, owning what they did, having that epic conversation where they acknowledge how much they hurt you, that may never, ever happen.
So we have to detach our ability to heal from those choices of that other person. They've already heard us with their action. Why would we allow them to hurt us by keeping us in a bondage of unforgiveness? And so forgiveness is us saying. This is where I can find autonomy in this situation. It's my choice to forgive.
It does not excuse what the other person did. It doesn't minimize the pain that they caused. It doesn't mean we automatically have to trust them again. It forgiveness is really our opportunity to free ourselves from suffering because of what they've done. And suffering over and over and over as we regurgitate it in our mind.
So the freedom and forgiveness is not setting the other person free and saying, now they don't have to pay consequences. Every sin that someone commits against you has consequences built into it. So sin comes as a package deal. It's partly what the person does, and then it's also consequences that are unleashed in their life because of what they did.
That's just how sin works. So our forgiveness is not letting them off the hook. Our forgiveness is placing them in the hands of God and saying, God, you will not be mocked and you tell me that vengeance is yours and you, you can address this, and I trust that you will. My journey now is to walk forward and not let that person turn me into someone I was never meant to be by making me bitter and resentful.
So that's one part of the journey. And. If it is possible, you know the Bible says live at peace was if possible, as far as it depends on, you live at peace with everyone, which implies sometimes it's possible and sometimes it's not. So if it is possible and that person does seek reconciliation, that then is where the trust journey begins.
[00:14:58] Michael Martin: A lot of what you said there is so [00:15:00] freeing. Like I pray that everybody who's listening, we just let that sink in. Um, I also wanted to ask you about this too, Lysa, because you talk about in, in, in the, in the way you write. I mean, yeah, the Lord has really gifted you and I think he's using a lot of humility, a lot of your gut level honesty.
People can just relate, uh, to so much of what you say, but I think one of the. The areas where I appreciated your vulnerability was even in just this idea of you wrestled with, um, you know, God even made our bodies to be able to discern. Dangerous situations. But you talk about this idea of when it comes to trust, having to exercise discernment between like what is healthy caution in a situation, and then also like what becomes fear or what, like what becomes something that cripples us from ever being able to to trust again.
So how do we discern the differences there when it comes to discernment and trust?
[00:15:57] Lysa TerKerust: Yeah, sometimes when you have your trust broken, it can really make you question your own discernment. Like, why didn't I see this coming? You know? And in my situation, I got really confused of how do I know if this is a trigger from my past pain?
And there's not a legitimate fear here. How do I know the difference between a trigger? And discernment that there's legitimate reasons to be concerned. Because there's really a paper thin line there, and the only way that I know to decide if this is discernment or a trigger is to investigate. Now people hear that word and they wanna take it to an extreme.
You know, I'm not talking about investigate as in stalk this person, you know, become overbearing. Yeah. That's not what I'm talking about. Right? What I'm talking about is ask the appropriate questions and watch the other person's reaction. So if I'm in a situation where, let's say, Michael, you and I had a falling out.
We've never had a falling out, so we're a safe, you know, we're, we're two people that are safe to have this pretend conversation. Okay? So let's say you and I had a falling out. And I had done something really, really mean to you, or I had said something really, really mean to you and it caused you a lot of hurt and a lot of pain.
And then let's say the next time we're together at a meeting or whatever, I say something and you're. I don't know how to interpret this. I am feeling discernment that that statement means she's not a safe person, but how do I know if it's a trigger because of what happened in the past or a real present day?
Discernment. The only way you're gonna know is if you ask me. Hey, Lysa, do you, do you mind clarifying what you said or what you meant? Because I received that [00:18:00] statement and it really caused me some confusion, some hurt, some pain. So you would then watch my reaction if I said to you seriously, Michael?
You're still holding what happened five years ago over my head, and now everything I say, you're gonna interpret it through the lens that I mean to hurt you, like you need to get over this. If that's my reaction, then that's pretty concerning. That's pretty concerning, that I'm really not seeking your highest good, which when God says love one another, that means seek each other's highest good.
And so that may not be a trigger trigger, you know, if my reactions get defensive and deflect onto you that the issue is your problem, not what I said, but your interpretation and I act really cruel in that then. You are probably discerning that I'm not a trustworthy person and my reaction has just proven that to you.
If, however, my reaction is, you know what, Michael? Of course, of course. That statement caused you some confusion and. What happened several years ago? You know, I know I've sought forgiveness and our relationship is better, but I just wanna say yeah, of course, of course. That caused you concern. So what do you need, Michael?
Do? Do you need me to, you know, better? Explain what I said. Do you, you know, do you need me to, you know, like show you, uh, proof like that this wasn't a mean thing by showing you a text that you know, that I sent to someone that confirms that I didn't mean it in a mean way. You know, what, what do you need right now?
And also, Michael, help me better understand how to respond so that you know, my response doesn't continue to hurt you. And if my. If my response to your question is gentle and humble and kind and truly caring about you, then that will tell you that you know what? This person may be on the path of really being a trustworthy person.
We just may need some relational communication to help smooth over what happened in the past.
[00:20:19] Michael Martin: That's so good. Um, I appreciate that because I think. We're all looking for those tools of how to get it right. And that's just very practical. Um, and, and you're right. We've never had a falling out, but, but if we did, I know you would handle it in a healthy way.
So thank you, Michael.
[00:20:37] Lysa TerKerust: That's why I made the villain and the story me, not you.
[00:20:40] Michael Martin: Oh, there you go. Hey, you could have done it the other way. It'd been fine. But it makes me think of something else too that you say, Lysa, and I think this is so good that, um, we all need to move from a place of blind trust. To Wise trust.
Um, I don't know if I've ever heard it said just quite like that before, but the importance of Wise [00:21:00] trust and so what, what does that transition look like as we're all moving to that place of not just, you know, blindly trusting, but being wise in that?
[00:21:08] Lysa TerKerust: Well, we have to be really careful about the word unconditional, you know, as Christ followers sometimes, you know, we know that, that, that we should be unconditional about certain things, but trust is not one of those.
And so. Instead of shooting for unconditional trust where we are blind to red flags that you know, we may see and pick up on in another person, and just overlooking those red flags, that's what blind trust is. We see something that's wrong. We see a red flag, we see concerning behavior, and we think our trust has to be unconditional and it doesn't.
We need to be wise, we're it, it's actually foolish to unconditionally trust people. There should be conditions to our trust. They should be kind people, they should be worthy of our trust. They should have trustworthy actions, you know, and the Bible makes it very clear that there are some people who have untrustworthy actions that.
Eventually if they become dangerous enough, the Lord says, separate from that person, do not have anything to do with that person. And even when Jesus tells us to forgive 70 times seven, Jesus does not mean that we are to automatically trust that person. Jesus does not mean that we have to stay in close proximity with that person.
I believe what Jesus means is create enough emotional or physical distance that. If that other person never changes their concerning behavior that we from a distance can forgive them 70 times seven without getting destroyed in the process. So Wise trust is, I'm gonna pay attention to. The actions of this person.
Remember, trust is built time plus believable behavior. So wise trust is I trust someone because consistently over time they have had behavior that says, yes, it's safe enough for me to trust this person. And I think it's really important that we, that we don't overlook red flags. We don't wanna maximize them, but we don't wanna minimize 'em either.
[00:23:19] Michael Martin: Yeah, I hear a lot in what you're saying too, Lysa, it just kind of occurs to me that the heart of God is to care for us. And I think this discernment that the Lord gives us with, or even as you're saying, like the Bible says a lot about looking out for red flags. Um, I think for us as believers, like that's a way for us to look at that and say, you know what?
Like that's actually God's love in action for us. Like he doesn't desire that we be. Um, hurt. He doesn't desire that we be foolish either.
[00:23:50] Lysa TerKerust: That's right. So I
[00:23:50] Michael Martin: really appreciate that.
[00:23:52] Lysa TerKerust: Yeah. And you know, as Christians we have this amazing thing that the Lord has, has graciously [00:24:00] given us to help us know. If the spirit of God is active and working through another person, you know, active in their heart and working through them, and that they really are surrendered and submitted to following the Lord wholeheartedly, and it's called the fruit of the Spirit love.
Joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. When we see someone consistently demonstrating the qualities that I just described, that fruit that's supposed to be outwardly evident of an inward working of Christ in someone's heart, it's gonna be a lot easier to trust them.
[00:24:42] Michael Martin: That's exactly right. Yeah. So, you know, knowing that these are all the ingredients, uh, of what it takes to, um, whether it's maintain trust or repair trust, like you said, when there's been a rip or something like that, um. Putting on your advisor hat, right? For like all of the leaders who are listening, who lead ministries, lead organizations, and uh, every day we're trying to reach people with the gospel, you know, with the love and good news of Jesus, who many of them have experienced some form of broken trust, disillusionment, whatever it may be.
If you're to advise those who are listening and say, okay, how do I take all of this? And then. As a ministry leader, what kind of action steps do we need to take to help really bridge what is this trust gap?
[00:25:32] Lysa TerKerust: Yeah. Well, first of all, I would say it needs to be an authentic journey. You know, it, it needs to be something that your heart really is pure in your ministry efforts.
And what I mean by that is sometimes when you get into ministry. It's with such pure intentions. And then over time pride can sneak in because you know you've got more followers, you've got more people attending, you've got more services, you're getting more attention and. The safest place for a leader is always on their face before the Lord.
But if we let pride puff us up and we elevate ourself so high and we are not consistently on our face before the Lord, then there will be a day where we. Get put back on our face before the Lord. There's two pathways to submitting to the Lord. There's two pathways to being on our face before the Lord.
Um, it's humility or humiliation. And the only difference is one chooses to bow low while the other trips and falls there, but they both wind up on their face before the Lord. And so for me, I know. I know that I am human and I have propensity toward. You know, I'm always one [00:27:00] really bad decision away from disaster.
We all are, you know, but I think the secret is getting on my face before the Lord and remembering that I. Any influence I have is because the Lord has gifted that influence to me. And if I take it and use it to glorify myself, I'm on the pathway of humiliation. But if I'm on, if I'm being honest and authentic and keeping my passion for ministry very pure, then it really is to help people then, you know, I've gotta keep, I've gotta keep pursuing that.
And here's a couple of things that are really. Good for leaders, especially as your ministry grows. I, I, I think it's really important to check ourselves in a couple of ways. Number one, when you look out, like if you're a pastor and you look out on a Sunday morning, do you see a crowd or do you still see individuals?
I think that's a really important thing to consider. The other thing is. Do I now consider the people who I once prayed for that I'm reaching in my audience? Do I now see them as one of my greatest pains, or do I still see. It has an absolute privilege to have the ability to speak into this person's life and this person's life and this person's life because sometimes, you know, we can start to look at the very people we once prayed for that we could have the opportunity to reach.
We sometimes start seeing it as an annoying crowd that just wants too much from us. And that's the time to really take a step back and either as a leader, either I need some rest and, and some time to regroup, or I need a real heart check that has ministry suddenly become all about me and my platform rather than about the people that need to be reached.
[00:29:10] Michael Martin: Wow. Um, Lysa, that's such wisdom and like around this idea of authenticity and humility as you were sharing it made me think of, um, I'm not gonna take any credit for this. Like this one was totally the Holy Spirit, but I was in a, like a, a speaking engagement one time and. Q and a with the audience and someone ask, um, Hey Michael, from your vantage point of leading ECFA and you know, the, the thousands of ministries that you work with, like, someone was asking this very genuine question of, um, what is like the one thing, like what is the common thread that you see in any organization that has some kind of a fall or a failure, whatever it may be?
And Lysa, I think they were expecting me to answer that with like my CPA hat on or my attorney hat on and say like, oh, it was a breakdown in internal controls. Or like, oh, they weren't following. You know, all the legal [00:30:00] rules and regulations, but like what the Holy Spirit dropped into my heart in that moment was, um, lack of humility, like when pride enters in.
I mean, that is the root of so many of those sad situations that we see, whether it's a, a leader that has some sort of a failure or an organization that does. And so I really appreciate everything that you said about. We all have to be humble. We have to keep a watch on pride.
[00:30:24] Lysa TerKerust: That's right. Right. Yeah. We are to guard our hearts because from it, it's the wellspring of pure ministry, you know?
And, and we've really, really gotta watch that. And so that was a really good answer, Michael.
[00:30:41] Michael Martin: It was the Holy Spirit. I can't take credit for it. So, um, you know, and I'm thinking too, Lysa, we kind of touched on this from an organizational standpoint, but I would love if, um, you know, you could even just share personally, you know, from your standpoint of, uh, ECFA.
It's kind of been a big. Uh, season lately of focusing on healthy leadership and what does it look like, not just to have trustworthy organizations, but in a sense to also have trustworthy leaders, you know, healthy leaders. Um, what has that journey been like for you? What have been some things that you might share as wisdom?
[00:31:14] Lysa TerKerust: Yeah. Well, Michael, as much as I wish with all of my heart, I wouldn't have suffered the. Death of my marriage. You know, it's the greatest heartbreak of my life. There are some good things that came out of it. And one of the good things that came out of it was I got desperate enough to go get really good counsel and found an amazing Christian therapist.
His name is Jim Chris, and it put me in a position where I not only healed from. The hurt and heartbreak of my divorce, but I also in that safe container of, you know, the confidentiality of a therapist and the, the wisdom of a therapist to know how to help me unearth things. There were other things I needed to work on.
And so as, as much as I. I wish that I wouldn't have gone through the death of my marriage. I think all of that pain and trauma forced me to finally get before a therapist who could tend well to my emotional health, and I would definitely say that that has been one of the most key important. Things that I've done is I've done my work because what we don't work out, we will eventually act out.
And so if we aren't working through the pain and heartbreak that we all have the unhealed traumas, the places where pride can sneak in the um. The places where we're so sensitive that we'll become defensive and [00:33:00] aggressive toward other people. You know, I think we, we all need to tend well to our emotional health.
And so I think that's a really important thing for a leader to consider. Um, and then the other thing is don't negate our own personal study of the scriptures. Sometimes it can always feel like we're preparing for the next. Sermon, we're preparing for the next presentation. We're like always in preparation mode, but I think the Lord really does want to speak to us and prepare us personally for each and every day.
And so as I open up God's word in the morning, I know I'm gonna read something and God has placed that something in front of me with great intentionality because that's my preparation. It's either for today or tomorrow or the next day, but it's a right now thing that God needs to speak to my heart. And so I think don't negate our own personal time of sitting before the Lord and.
Not just asking the Lord to bless our lives and bless our ministries, but asking the Lord with the precision of a great surgeon to seek me. Like, seek out the deep places in my heart, Lord, where I, I need a revelation from you so that. I can be an effective person. I can be a God honoring person before my role of being a presenter or a pastor or a person in ministry.
[00:34:37] Michael Martin: Amen. Amen. That's so real. Thank you. Um, the importance of tending well for our souls. Um, and yeah, the, the God's word is alive, it's active. Um, he's wanting to give those good gifts to us. I'm sure you're asked this question a lot too, Lysa, but you mentioned counseling. Um. For those who haven't been on that journey before, or they're hearing you share, like, Hey, that was such an important, um, tool that God used.
I mean, your counselor is kind of God's ambassador to you. I'm sure you ask all the time, like, how do I go about finding a, a good, a good Christian counselor? What do you tell folks in that space?
[00:35:13] Lysa TerKerust: Well, I found the, one of the best ways is to ask other people who they use and, you know, um. If they've already done the hard work of finding a person in their area, a counselor, a therapist in their area, you know, that, um, that has been affected with them, then that's probably the number one way is personal recommendations.
You can also go to the American Association of Christian Counselors and you can, they have a resource and that doesn't guarantee that every single. Person is vetted out, you know, so that's why I say personal recommendations are the best, but at least that can get you started with what's available in your area.
And then if you're [00:36:00] having a hard time finding a therapist, a short term solution is the podcast that I do with my therapist, Jim Crest, and then also Dr. Joel Ali, who is the resident. Theologian here at Proverbs 31 Ministries and the three of us have a podcast called Therapy and Theology. And um, that's a good way to bridge, you know, I, I'm recognizing I need some wisdom.
I need some therapy. I need to have some wise Christian. You know, advice, maybe some good theology around certain topics and I can't find the therapist right away. So bridge that gap with our podcast therapy and theology. And that's not the end all. Be all though. Still look for a therapist because there's something really.
Wonderful about having someone else help guide you in your emotional health. And I say make sure that person comes from it from a very biblical standpoint because sometimes emotional health and spiritual health are very closely tied together.
[00:37:04] Michael Martin: Yeah, that's right. I think, um, and all that you just shared there, Lysa, one thing I took away is, um.
God doesn't expect us to be on a journey of healing and recovery alone. You know? So like in all of those things that you just shared, um, he doesn't, he doesn't expect for us to on our own, like pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, you know, like rely on yourself like it really is. A lot of that takes place, uh, with the help of others.
So, so great recommendations there. Hey, I also underlined something else in your book and I thought this was so powerful, you said. The more I try to force the life that I want, the less likely I am to get it, which is such a powerful statement. And it really just speaks to this idea of surrender. And so kind of as we begin to come to the end of our conversation here too, I'd love to just hear what are some reflections, some things you've learned about the importance of surrender as it relates to trust?
[00:38:01] Lysa TerKerust: Yeah. Well, we're all either, um. In a heart posture of surrender or in a heart posture of control, there really is no in-between. And so here's how I know that I am leaning more into wanting to take control myself, and there's a really key word, it's called the word outcome. You see, if I'm in control mode, then basically my mantra is I am only willing to accept the outcome that I think is best.
And so I will do whatever it takes to navigate everyone in my life toward the outcome that I think is best, and I will. To control situations, conversations, narratives, people, so that everything stays in line with the outcome that that I think is best. And so what can happen with that though, is [00:39:00] sometimes we're a little bit successful.
And then, you know, sometimes we are a little bit successful in controlling some things, and then that gives us the false impression that we are ultimately in control and we're not. And the pathway of only being willing to accept the outcome that we think is best is the quickest pathway to distancing ourself from trusting God.
Because we get this thought of verbally. Yes, I'll say I trust God, but inside I will trust God as long as he follows my plan. And that's a very, very exhausting pathway. It's full of anxiety, it's full of fear, it's full of manipulation. Um, and there's just. Not a lot of good that can happen. When we force that surrender is that doesn't mean we just let go and let God, right?
Because we have certain responsibilities that we have to carry. So surrender really starts with acknowledging stewardship and what stewardship is. Sometimes we think of stewardship is only in the financial realm, but we are also called to be a faithful steward of. What's been entrusted to us, our life, our livelihood, our children, our families, all of that.
And so it's really important you see the mantra of someone who's being a faithful steward, rather than controlling their life, they're being a fateful steward of their life. The mantra of the faithful steward is, I recognize. That I am only responsible to manage that which is within my ability to manage.
I cannot control other people's choices. I cannot force outcomes. And so with the outcome, I've got to surrender the outcome to the Lord, and I've got to trust him even if it doesn't look like what I thought it should look like. And so I think those two distinctions, like we don't wanna be. In control of our lives.
Now, the only control that God does call us to is self-control. We're never called to control other people. We're never called to control circumstances. We're never called to make sure everything and everyone else stays in line. But we are called to be self-control. And an act of self-control is to be a responsible manager of what is within my ability, control, and the rest.
We have to surrender to the Lord. And you know, my job. Is to be obedient to God. God's job is everything else.
[00:41:25] Michael Martin: Yeah, that's right. I relate so much to what you're saying. I found myself exhausted before trying to control things. Um, I love that connection between stewardship and surrender and not that, about that before.
Um, what's one practical step too? So if people have that in their minds of like, okay, I need to shift mindset here. Um. Surrender in some areas, release control. I know that's gonna look different in every situation, but what's maybe a baby step that we can all take in terms of surrendering as stewards?
[00:41:59] Lysa TerKerust: Yeah, [00:42:00] well a baby step, uh, really is to tend well to our own anxiety because anxiety and fear can really drive us to wanna control. Control is really fear disguised as strength. So, I'm gonna say it again 'cause it takes a second for our brain to process this control. Is really fear. So what's driving a lot of our control is fear.
And fear sometimes makes us feel weak. And so if we wanna feel strong. When we are afraid in our own abilities, then we control, because control makes us feel like taking control feels like strength, but it's a false sense of security because ultimately we aren't in control. So a baby step is to tend well to our fear and our anxiety.
There's four things that make up a feeling of fear, and I think this is really fascinating, a feeling of fear. Which remember we're talking about control. So fear that's gonna spin us off into wanting to take control. So the four things that make up the feeling of fear first there's the alert or the alarm where we kind of go, huh?
And our brain is always searching. Our environment for the confidence of knowing our brain wants to search, search, search. Am I safe? Is this good? Is this person trustworthy? You know, is, is there anything about in my environment that's that's unsafe? You know, so while our brain is searching for the confidence of knowing that alert makes us take our brain and put all of our attention into whatever's causing this alarm or alert in our life, the next part of a feeling of fear.
Is memory. And so we will quickly, almost instantly travel back in our memory and say, when have I felt this before? And we will pull that memory into our present day situation. And if the memory was, no, you felt this before and you were actually safe, then that calms us down. But if the memory was, oh no, last time this happened, it was a worst case scenario.
Mm-hmm. So this could be a worst case scenario. And so we multiply that feeling of fear in our life. So just as a, as a step in our journey, memory work is something we can do something about. And there's this amazing therapeutic, um, technique called EMDR, which is basically just reprocessing. Traumatic memories and connecting the two sides of our brain so that we can bring some logical thought into what otherwise was just kind of like survival mode.
And so it's called EMDR. Christian Trained Therapists know how to do it. At first I was very skeptical. I was like. This sounds weird. This will never work. I'm too logical. But it is. It is really amazing when we go back into our memory and reprocess that memory from the emotional and spiritual maturity that we're at right now, and we reprocess [00:45:00] that memory and bring logical thought into it, that can, that can help us make a lot of process.
The third thing that makes up the feeling of fear, so we have the alert alarm, then we have the memory, and the third thing is the translation. It's the narrative. What are we telling ourselves? Because of either a past trauma that we've had, you know, trauma that has happened to us in the past. It, it's not just about what happened to us.
The much bigger thing that that determines the level of trauma is the story we now tell ourselves because of what happened to us. So we have to really listen. What story am I telling myself because. Of a past trauma or a past memory, like what story am I telling myself? Like, here are some examples of stories that, that I've told myself in the past.
I'll never get over this. Or the story may be, you know, this person will always get away with it. Or, you know, um, being part of a close friendship will always lead to disaster. Mm-hmm. Do you see how, like, if we have a feel, a feeling of alert. When we're with a friend and our narrative is. Nobody is really safe.
Every good friendship ends in disaster. If that's the story I'm telling myself, then that's gonna maximize that feeling of fear, right? And cause me to distance myself in that relationship. So that's another place how that, what is the narrative we're telling ourselves? That's where we can do some work, some self-care There.
And then the third part or the fourth part of a feeling of fear is our response, and it can either be a response or a reaction. And how we tend to memory and translation will often determine if we're able to appropriately respond to this feeling of fear or if we, we react out fear.
[00:46:52] Michael Martin: This is so good, Lysa, I, I, I've taken so many notes over here on my end.
Uh, with all that you've shared, I just wanna sneak in one last thing, and that is just, um, on the topic of hope, um, just kind of ending on that note. Um. Your story, like, I think as God, as things have unfolded, like there's so much hope. I know you're a person of hope and like as we open the conversation today, just saying, Hey, only one out of three Americans today say that they highly trust churches and religious organizations.
Or I think about all the people who are listening and they're processing like their own, whether it's a personal story or an organizational story. Um, there's a lot of hard things. You've given us a lot of help in terms of being able to process those. Um. But I love how you make the connection that when it comes to hope, like our only true source of hope is if we attach it in the Lord.
So maybe in just the last little minute that we have here, I'd love to hear you just speak on the importance of hope.
[00:47:48] Lysa TerKerust: Absolutely. So having your trust broken can be life altering, but it doesn't have to be life ruining. And you know, with the [00:48:00] Lord, there are so many things in scripture that remind us that if we anchor our hope in what he is doing, rather than trying to.
Look at our environment and try to fix everything right now, like do what we can do to heal and heal wisely. But there are some people, there are some situations we cannot fix and we cannot control. And so I think what's really, really crucial is to remember there's always the physical reality of what we see.
Then there's also simultaneously the good that God is working, even when we can't see it or feel it. Genesis 50 20 is probably one of the most hope-filled verses for me personally in all of the Bible, and it's when Joseph says to the brothers that betrayed him and hurt him, you intended to harm me, but God also had an intention.
You see the brothers had a bad intention, but God also had an intention. You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish something. See, the pain is not pointless to accomplish what is now being done. The saving of many. Lives. I think for me that verse speaks such hope because it reminds me no human is more powerful than God and God's intention is what will win in the end.
[00:49:27] Michael Martin: That's right. But God, what a great way to end Lysa. Thank you so much. Uh, as always, you bless me today and I know you're also, uh, such a blessing to all of those who tuned in, so thanks for sharing your wisdom with us.
[00:49:42] Lysa TerKerust: Thank you so much, Michael. It's a joy and an honor to be with you today.
[00:49:47] Ryan Gordon: Thank you.
Thanks for joining us for The Behind the Seal Podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation. We'll see you next time.