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Career education is a vital pipeline to high demand jobs in the workforce. Students from all walks of life benefit from the opportunity to pursue their career education goals and find new employment opportunities. Join Dr. Jason Altmire, President and CEO of Career Education Colleges and Universities (CECU), as he discusses the issues and innovations affecting postsecondary career education. Twice monthly, he and his guests discuss politics, business, and current events impacting education and public policy.
Jason Altmire (00:05):
Hello and welcome to another edition of Career Education Report. I'm Jason Altmire. And today, our guest is Dr. Glenn Roquemore. And he is interesting for all kinds of reasons because he has been a senior executive, a president of both a public community college and a for-profit school. He's now a very well-known consultant in the higher education space dealing with issues like accreditation. And he has an interesting background because he earned a doctorate in geology and geophysics and became head of the Applied Geoscience Research Office at the Naval Weapons Center, China Lake. He worked there for a decade, and then he moved on to Irvine Valley College first as a professor, but then he became president of Irvine Valley College for 18 years, and that is a community college in California. And then from that position, he became the president of California Southern University, which is a for-profit school. So we're going to talk about his experiences and just his views generally of higher education. Dr. Roquemore, thank you for being with us.
Dr. Glenn Roquemore (01:16):
Well, thank you Jason. I look forward to this. Very much appreciate the opportunity.
Jason Altmire (01:21):
I guess we would start with that very question more generally. And you've done a lot of writing. You're published in the Business Journal in Orange County, and I've seen your post nationally on LinkedIn and other places. Just what are your observations on the state of higher education in America, given that you've been on all sides of it?
Dr. Glenn Roquemore (01:40):
Well, I think presently, it's a low point. I think that some people point back to COVID as causing a drop in enrollment, but when you read the literature across the country, it's really talking about a loss of confidence that a traditional college degree path actually has value. I think it does, but I'm saying that the general feeling is that it may not. And so that's getting a lot of folks talking about why might that be. And it really boils down to relevance in terms of a career pathway. As you know, the majority of the jobs available in the country are more technical oriented, there's a relatively small percentage that go into some of the professional sides in terms of medicine and law and things like that. So it may be that we're just missing the mark. We're not, as a public institution, not stepping up and understanding this connection with business, what are the business needs?
(02:51):
Because in one of my first articles I talked about where I held a seminar and I brought in business leaders education and we talked about what the college of the future might look like. And so we discussed all of the opportunities that public education offers. And to the shock of the audience, there was a top CEO in the room in a gaming industry that stood up and they said, "I want you to know that your A students happen to be our D applicants." And that shocked the audience across the board. That was a true indication that somehow we are not offering the kinds of education that business needs.
(03:40):
So, I think it's a prime opportunity right now to re-envision what we're doing in higher education. And I think there's a number of models that can be followed. I think that in public education, it's quite a bit harder to make these kinds of changes because you have faculty unions, you have a lot of constituents that have a say in the direction that their colleges and universities go. So you have to be able to make that connection and make sure that they understand that change has to be in the wind if we're going to regain the confidence of the public.
Jason Altmire (04:23):
And let's go there because as I mentioned, you have an interesting background, but very few people have worked on both the public and the for-profit side as the chief executive. And you were at Irvine Valley College for almost 30 years, worked your way up and was president for almost 18 years. And then as I mentioned, you went to become president of California Southern University. What were your impressions before you took the job at California southern, of the differences between public and for-profit institutions? And how did that view evolve over time when you took the second role at California Southern?
Dr. Glenn Roquemore (05:06):
Well, that's a very good question. I would have to say that it was trepidation. Is that in public education in general, I'll make a general statement here, but I can certainly reflect back on the college that I worked, for-profit institutions were not taken in good light. And in fact, it was a really a bad reputation because of some things that happened within for-profit education that took advantage of students, and a number of them had to close. There was a lot of debt that was owed and all of this. So there was a black cloud there. And so I was a bit interested because I felt that there could be a lot more done there. And reflecting back to public education where a president has to, well, enjoys working with so many different constituents. To get some idea through, to get an objective moving, you have to learn to be the leader that can pull everybody together and make all that happen. So the downside is it takes a really long time to convince folks at the public institution that a certain direction is a good way to go.
(06:24):
And of course, the college president is oftentimes out in the field. And so you're listening to business leaders, you're listening to what their needs are, and you're hearing how things are working or not working. And so you try to bring that back to the institution. So the question there is, can you move fast enough in order to satisfy the needs of business? And I frankly found it difficult. When I had the opportunity to join the for-profit institution, part of the reason that I chose CalSouthern is that the owner, because this is, it's a business. The owner actually had a degree in engineering from Columbia University. And so he also understood how all of this works. And he was dedicated to making sure that students that went to his institution would be able to apply directly what they're learning, to the jobs that they may already be in, to advancements that they may be looking toward. Or someone coming in fresh, are they going to be tooled up in order to be able to be successful in a whole wide array of disciplines, psychology, education, there's a number of things.
(07:40):
And so my experience there was quite a surprise. I was excited that every employee worked well together and really had the same objective. Looking at the academic senate, they were friends and they were professionals that were really focused on making sure that the students would be effective in their goals. And so in order to make change, effective change, I found that this private institution really worked well, is that they have the ability to step up and be responsive to the changes in business and industry. Part of the reason is, a large number of the faculty are in the business. And so these are business leaders that are also teaching. And so they're bringing those changes to the university. And the university allows the mechanism to make things happen very, very quickly.
Jason Altmire (08:46):
And you're an expert in accreditation. And I think what you've written about the for-profit sector and the role of is interesting because it is worth noting you are in California, which has been on the front lines of this national debate about the merits of for-profit higher education. And in fairness, some of the institutions that have not shined as positive a light on the sector as we would've liked were in California and gained a lot of notoriety. So you've written a lot about the role of accreditation in ensuring quality of for-profit schools. Can you talk more about that?
Dr. Glenn Roquemore (09:27):
Yes, that's correct. And that opinion comes directly from my experience at California Southern is that they were accredited by a regional accreditor, the same accreditor that credits the large public universities. And so that really brings a gold standard. And that really will help refute that black cloud if you hold this regional accreditation. And nowadays, it's a national accreditation, because it does ensure that what you're offering is relevant, it's of high quality, the faculty are of high quality, your budget is sound. You're not in a position to take advantage of students and all of the like. And so, for the time that I was at Cal Southern, one of my primary jobs was to help lead them through a reaffirmation of their accreditation. And in this process, I found that the creditors have actually begun to recognize for-profit institutions and have a complete separate set of conditions that you have to meet in order to obtain that accreditation, which we did.
(10:48):
And so it puts up a firewall for owners of the business getting too involved in the operations of the institution directing curriculum and all of this. It really mirrors, even though it's a private institution, it mirrors the public institutions in many of the academic aspects.
(11:15):
And in fact, in this case, we were 100% online and able to do this through experiential learning, which was another framework that the accreditors had built for private institutions. So I feel that from my experience there, if you don't have that brand, it will be extremely difficult to be successful, particularly as a for-profit private institution. Some of the nonprofits tend to do a little bit better, but for for-profit, you get that accreditation and you're good to go.
Jason Altmire (11:53):
You've mentioned the focus that we have in America now on career-oriented jobs. We're not pushing everybody into a four-year path in the same way we used to discourage people from going into a trade or a career-oriented program. What do you think that the significance of the innovation and the mindset that you mentioned with for-profit schools, what significance does that play in leading the way with this new way of looking at things in higher education?
Dr. Glenn Roquemore (12:29):
Well, I think it opens the door. And I think that if you take a look at what our public institutions are doing now, today, across the nation, there are many large public support institutions that provide professional development. And the organizations that support the public system, they are really talking a lot about workforce development. And there's a lot of workforce development grants out there. There's a movement going on, finally, among the public institutions.
(13:12):
Now, I must say that when I was president, that the chancellor had this vision, the same vision that I'm talking about and put, I think it was around 15 million into the system to try to develop workforce development. And the needle did not move in terms of student success in those areas. So I'm pleased to say that I feel that this is changing dramatically as a lot of the public institutions now are looking at career pathways or being more transparent for students to tell them, if you select a certain career pathway, here's what you need to do. Here's the courses you need to take, and here's the job that you can possibly get, and here's what it will pay. And so the transparency there keeps students from going off on some angle and find that they don't have a living wage at the end of their education, because they were using this cafeteria approach to selecting courses, "Oh, I think I'll take this, or I think I'll take that." And it doesn't lead them in the right direction. So change is happening.
(14:24):
However, I think at the same time, the reputation for the public institutions, non-profit, for-profit, whichever one, is increasing. And I think that in many cases, they're serving as a model in terms of being able to show how workforce development is the right approach. It has a lot of student success. Our institution, the student success was 80%. It's a very successful program.
Jason Altmire (14:56):
And regarding workforce development, at the end of March, you wrote an opinion piece that gained a lot of traction and got attention relating to your view that Americans should embrace a model of apprenticeships similar to the German model where the business funds the apprenticeship. Can you maybe give a little background on how that works in Germany and then why you think that would be a good model for America?
Dr. Glenn Roquemore (15:20):
Yes, I certainly will. And let me say on the onset that it's an uphill climb. The way it works in not just Germany, but Switzerland also has a phenomenal apprenticeship program. In fact, the public institutions are forming apprenticeship programs, but they're quite different. They are looking at the businesses to watch after the students as they're in that apprenticeship. There's no funding involved. It's like taking a class basically. So the difference that you find in these other countries is that the businesses actually provide the funding. They fund the student for their time to come and be a part of their business as they learn all of the different technologies that ultimately they will need. It does a couple of things.
(16:18):
So for many students, and this is particularly true for community colleges, a lot of the students do not have a lot of resources to take the time away from a job in order to be in an apprenticeship. And so by paying them, then they wouldn't need to take that job at a fast food restaurant to sustain themselves. They would have funding through the business. The other thing that happens is that they form a relationship. And so oftentimes when a business is in the hiring process, you can only go so far with that. You can look at the paper documents, you can look at resumes, you can have an interview. But do you ever learn how that new employee is going to perform on the job? What are their soft skills? What are their abilities to be successful in your firm? Well, this model, that Switzerland Germany has, takes care of that because you learn all of that. The student learns, is this business right for me? And then the business learns, is this student and employee that we want to have that will be here for a very long time?
(17:33):
And so yes, it's a business-funded apprenticeship that actually provides college credit. And that's the next step. And perhaps the most difficult step for America is there is so much ownership that occurs among curriculum. Who wrote it? How is it written? How does it fit in a program? A huge amount of ownership there. And so to think about a business that is going to provide curriculum, and actually maybe even a degree, a special degree in apprenticeship, is going to be a tough hill to climb. But on the other hand, we have to realize that even in the public institutions in certain programs, the business folks are teaching. They are adjunct faculty, part-time faculty, especially in the business programs, they tend to bring in the practitioners in the field to do the teaching.
(18:44):
So in a way, we're part way there. Say there's one foot in the door, is that there is a confidence that our business folks can do the teaching and learning aspect. The next step is a tough one, and that is how you confer credit and degrees. And that takes accreditors, the accreditors will have to find a mechanism, as they did with the for-profit schools to allow them to be accredited. This is another step to have a process by where a business can be accredited to offer quality programs and courses.
(19:25):
So the result is, youth in Switzerland and Germany, there's a very high employment rate among that 15 to 25 year old range of employees. And it's a fraction of that here in the United States. And so there's a benefit there, is that it clearly shows that that model of business-paid apprenticeships leads to student success in the workplace.
Jason Altmire (19:59):
I think you're right that the process in going from zero to 50 on that in America is very, very difficult to envision given the political impediments and just the change that you're advocating. But there is empirical evidence to show that it works. And you mentioned the youth unemployment rate, and if you look at the youth unemployment rate in Germany compared to the United States, there's a huge spike during COVID. But leaving that aside, it's approximately three to four percentage points higher in America. The unemployment rate, for example, in February of this year, you mentioned that the rate of unemployment for youth in Germany was 5.6%, but 8.8% in America, if you look at that over a period of years, going backwards, it's at that level as far as you can see. So it clearly has made a difference in Germany to have that type of program.
(21:01):
Dr. Roquemore, thank you so much for being with us. This has been incredibly enlightening, all of these topics. If somebody wanted to learn more about you or follow up on some of the things that we've talked about, how would they find you?
Dr. Glenn Roquemore (21:14):
Well, you can find me through my business. If you look at Roquemore Higher Education Consultants, my contact information is there. And I'd be happy to engage in any conversation at all.
(21:28):
And Jason, I really appreciate this.
Jason Altmire (21:31):
Dr. Glenn Roquemore, thank you for being with us.
Dr. Glenn Roquemore (21:33):
Thank you, Jason.
Jason Altmire (21:37):
Thanks for joining me for this episode of the Career Education Report, subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For more information, visit our website at career.org and follow us on Twitter @CECUed. That's @C-E-C-U-E-D. Thank you for listening.