Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is a transformative and supportive Podcast, dedicated to helping those who are, or have been, abused by narcissists to heal from the ravages of narcissistic abuse. Our show is a lifeline for those who are looking for next steps in their emotional and psychological healing, offering expert guidance and practical solutions for those who are in narcissistic relationships or are rebuilding their lives after narcissistic abuse. The hosts are Attorney Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney who have helped hundreds of people in their narcissistic abuse recovery and know the journey personally in their own lives.
She didn't have favorites. Didn't have a favorite restaurant, didn't have favorite food, didn't have likes, didn't have, you know, and people who don't evaluate those kinds of things also don't evaluate their behavior.
Voiceover:In a world of hurt and pain, we find a way to break the chain, a caring heart, a guiding light. Lead us through the darkest night with preservation in our soul. We'll rescue those who've lost control, escape the grip of a narcissist on our journey to recovery bliss. Welcome to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel with John McKenney and Padida Jafari.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Hi, John.
Jon McKenney:It's good to see you. What's going on?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Everything's good. We just got back from a four day conference in LA, so I'm a little bit tired. What
Jon McKenney:kind of conference was it?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:It was actually for my husband. He does a lot of these, like, conferences for financial wealth and
Jon McKenney:Oh, nice.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And wealth management and and for his for his career. And I'm a supportive wife. I go to the conferences with him. And then when I have conferences, he comes with me. So we try not to, like, travel without each other if at all.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Awesome. That's that is exactly what a supportive wife would do even if she's might be a little bored at the conference.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yeah. I mean, I stay in the hotel, but then once in a while, like, after they have dinner, I can meet up with him or something. This one was easy because it was in LA, which is, you know, forty five minutes from where we live. So it's an easy one, but being stuck in a hotel for four days is not always fun. So I have to
Jon McKenney:No. Gotta entertain yourself. Did you do anything fun?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Well, I I was able to work out. I took long walks. I actually took River with with me.
Jon McKenney:River's So your dog, by the way, for those of you who are on the podcast and don't know.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And River is
Jon McKenney:a And the is the second love of her life, by the way.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yeah. Oh, he's an LA wildfire rescue, so he is the love of my life. So he becomes really popular with the hotel staff, and, you know, it's just it's fun to have him because, like, he forces me to go outside. Right? And so it was this was nice because we were staying at the Beverly Hills Hilton, and there's a lot of areas to walk and look at the beautiful houses.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And it's just it was a it was a it was a nice trip, but we were happy to be home last night and be in our own bed. So it was good to be home.
Jon McKenney:Fantastic. You know, I didn't even realize that that most hotels are dog friendly, but they really are.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yeah. Especially in LA, a lot of people have dogs. I would say I mean, I don't know what the statistic says, but I would say 90% of the people have dogs. And so a lot of these hotels are dog friendly.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. I was in one not long ago, and it worked against me. I don't have a dog, but the dog barked all day long, and it was a problem. So when you got a dog next door and you wanna sleep and it so maybe they need a special floor for dogs, but it was it was it was not so good. But I understand the necessity, and I understand the desire because dogs these days are kinda like your second child.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yeah. And, actually, River is trained, so he doesn't bark. But, yeah, he does sometimes whimper while when we leave, and then he quiets down. But, yeah, I could see that that would be really annoying.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. And you don't know what he's doing when you're gone. He may be he may be barking up a storm. You never know.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:You never know.
Jon McKenney:I think I mean, dog friendly is good just as long as I'm not sitting next to a dog on a plane. I just kinda don't want that. So Oh, I'd if I gotta do that.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:I'd rather sit next to a dog on a plane than sit next to a
Jon McKenney:person on a plane. Yes. Really?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Well, yes. Because people I mean, they're
Jon McKenney:I just got visions of this dog just, you know, his tongue out and licking my arm or something like that while I'm on the plane.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:They have to be they first of all, they have to be sitting inside their little crate or their kennel or their bag or whatever.
Jon McKenney:That would be okay. That would be okay if they're in their thing. Well, we've we've got we've got a fun podcast today, and and this particular podcast, we you know, ultimately, there's a lot of the stuff we talk about with narcissistic personality disorder is kinda heavy, and it's hard and stuff like that. And and if you if you look on social media, particularly on Instagram and and TikTok and things like that, if you you you're you're in narcissist abuse kind of channels, You hear the term red flags, red flags, red flags. Look out for this red flag.
Jon McKenney:Look out for this red flag. And we we just we just don't wanna do that. So we thought the best way to go help people heal and the best way to go help them understand how to move beyond narcissistic abuse is to actually do a a segment on a podcast on green flags. So that's what today is about.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yeah. It's pretty exciting to talk about green flags because I know what the red flags are with my ex husband, and I know what the green flags are with my current and final husband. You can't say current husband because that implies that there might be another husband.
Jon McKenney:No. You've made it very clear. John is your last one. And Yes. That's not me, John.
Jon McKenney:That's her John. So so so that's your he's your your second and and only husband from here on out. So
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Second and final.
Jon McKenney:Second and final is what you say. So so let's talk about some of these green flags. Now you you kind of have an interesting take on some of this as you did a little research. How did you kind of go about this?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yeah. So I have a good friend who has been married for forty four years. She has four children, grown children now, and nine grandchildren. So I talked to her actually this morning, and I was like, her knee her name is Lisa Guype. She's with the Guype Group and Compass.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:She's a big time realtor here in Newport Beach where our, second office is. So and she's a really good friend of mine. So I said, Lisa, I'm doing some research, and I would have called you last week so I could give you some time to think about this. But for the conference, I got a little bit, disheveled. So I said, I'm doing some research on green flags and who better to sort of talk to about this in interview than you?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And so she gave me some really, really great ones I I feel like. And I would say forty four years of marriage is a success story. Wouldn't you say that, John?
Jon McKenney:A very unusual one these days. Right? You don't see see or meet a whole lot of people who've been married that long.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yeah. And so and I and we we love her husband. Her and I are good friends, and so I'll go through them as we talk about our list that we came up with.
Jon McKenney:Alright. Well, let's let's dive in. So let's talk about some of these things, Padilla. So why don't you why don't you give me your first one? What do you think what do you think is a green flag for a relationship, particularly for people who have been through narcissistic abuse, which is the the the primary the primary people who are listening to our channel and our podcasts here.
Jon McKenney:So so so what do you think? What's a green flag for somebody? What she what what are the good things you should be looking for?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Okay. So this is gonna be a weird one coming out the gate, but top three reasons why someone gets divorced is for finances. Okay? And so, Lisa mentioned financial transparency, which I think is so great because people don't wanna talk about finances. Right, John?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Like
Jon McKenney:Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And with a narcissist, they're always hiding something. Right? They either have like poor credit history. They're late on payments. They've changed jobs frequently.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Their coworkers don't like them. Right? And like, so they get they lose their jobs frequently. And so financial transparency, she said somebody that will talk to you about sort of the financial landscape. Right?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And if they have student loans, like, they'll tell you about their student loan.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Mhmm.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:They'll say, you know, I had, you know, good credit or bad credit, and this is why I have bad credit. Because sometimes people go through a divorce, John, and they have bad credit because not for any other reason, but they're going through a high conflict divorce.
Jon McKenney:Right.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Sometimes, you know, things fall through the cracks. So I thought the first one is somebody that has financial transparency.
Jon McKenney:And and and perhaps even financial stability. And and it's interesting. I was kinda looking through my list. I'm going, how did that that not make my list? Especially when my Instagram post this morning or or maybe tomorrow, I I forget which, is about money.
Jon McKenney:And I you know, I'm I'm thinking back as you say this, you know, my my narcissist ex wanted to control all the finances. I I tried for for a while. I kinda wrestled it from her because I felt like we were getting in debt. And when we first got married, I'd paid off her college. I'd I'd we were we were completely out of debt.
Jon McKenney:She started managing our finances, and we started to get in debt again. So I took it back. I wrestled it back. And and during that time, she had it for for three months. And the first month, she'd come into and I'd I'd set up a budget for us.
Jon McKenney:And while I was doing it, she'd come in and she'd go, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I I I I I I need another $800. I'm like, well, why do you need another $800?
Jon McKenney:Well, I've written checks that are, you know, this and this and this and this. And I go, how do you write checks without money? You can't do this. And then it was kinda depending on my own small business to go rescue her out of these things. And and after three months of that coming in $600 here, $800 here, a thousand dollars here, and having to rescue her out of this, she goes, well, I I just have to control this.
Jon McKenney:I have to I have to manage it. And she did for the next fifteen or so years, but but ultimately, we continued to get into debt because of her lack of financial management. In fact, saw a therapist once, and I think this topic is so important, and I'm so glad you came out with it right out of the gate. The therapist, the first words out of her mouth were, Do you guys have a budget financially? And I pointed to her, and I said, no.
Jon McKenney:Although, I've tried. And she's the one that refuses to live in it. And she said therapist said, first things out of she says and pointed right at her, you are gonna have a budget, and you guys are going to live in that budget. First words out of her mouth. I think she did that because of the seriousness of finances in a marriage.
Jon McKenney:If I'm not mistaken, I don't know Don't quote me on this because I've not researched this recently. But if I remember seeing correctly, finances are the leading cause of marital divorce. Saying that, it's really fantastic. Think out of the gate, you want somebody, green flag is somebody who's out of debt, who's financially stable. And I know I I it's I mean, I I had a friend way back when, and and, you know, years years back, she was just completely completely in debt.
Jon McKenney:And I'm like, yeah. That's kinda not the person for me. Imagine dating somebody and them having 50 or 60 or a $100,100,000 dollars in debt. You know? It's it's very hard to go to wanna go absorb that and to wanna go pay for those kinds of things so that you're not rescuing somebody out of a financial dilemma.
Jon McKenney:Keep in mind, you want somebody who genuinely loves you and and doesn't want you for your money or for your ability to go rescue them out of their financial nonsense.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Right. You know, what's funny is that my husband, you know, he lived in New York City for thirty five years. And the this is sort of like a joke. They say okay. He says, as soon as a woman in New York City meets you, they say, okay.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Do you rent your own? Where do you work? Where did you go to school? Like, they're they're sort of sizing you up to see how much money you have, how much money you make, and that's a common thing in Manhattan. It's sort of like because it's so expensive to live there.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Right? And he's like, as soon as I was dating and a girl came up with that and would start asking me questions, he's like I was like, red flag. Immediately, red flag. So the opposite is true. You know, somebody that says, look.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:I wanna get to know you, but, obviously, it's important to know, like, you know, what does this financial, landscape look like? And I do wanna say, if you are in financial debt and as long as you're managing it and you're not expecting the other person to come and listen. You know, lawyers have a lot of financial debt, right, because of of law school.
Jon McKenney:And so I'm
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:not saying if you've got student loans and things like We're not saying any of that. We're just saying, make sure that they're not expecting you to pay for it because when you get married, you're basically paying for the other person's debt as, you know, assets and debts. You acquire assets hopefully, and then and then you have to pay for the debt. So just be aware of it. And my friend Lisa said, just talk about it.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Like, have a conversation.
Jon McKenney:Yeah.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And if they're not willing to, that, you know, obviously is not a green flag. That's a red flag.
Jon McKenney:Right. What's it? Adam Levine says, if I got locked away and lost it all today, would you still love me the same? So that's what you wanna you wanna try to assess upfront, and and and you wanna make sure that that that somebody's not using you to rescue them out of a bad financial situation.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yes.
Jon McKenney:Alright. Number two, I'll I'll go go to my list for this one. And and and mine was pretty clear. Emotional stability and consistency.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Oh, great one.
Jon McKenney:You want somebody you want somebody who's not prone to just rage and anger, and and you want somebody who's even keel. And for those of you who have been in narcissistic abuse, you've lived the opposite of that. You know? I I've said on on podcast prior that my home was a war zone. I never knew what I was walking into day in and day out.
Jon McKenney:You want an environment of peace, and that has to be your priority. And hopefully, in getting out of a relationship with a narcissist, you've begun to establish that. I think that's one of the greatest things about my life right now is that I I feel like I have peace. I I refinanced my house a couple years back, and I had to have it reappraised. And the appraiser was perhaps a little older, maybe in her late fifties or sixties, and I say that now, and then I'm in my late fifties, but which is older, which is frightening.
Jon McKenney:But but she came in, and she I could just see her when she walked in. She's like, wow. Woah. And she went around and she did her we had some conversation about the appraisal, and she kinda went around the house and checked it all out. And I talked about what I was doing with the house.
Jon McKenney:One of the one of the bathrooms was torn apart because I was remodeling and gave her the timeline on that. And and towards the end, she said, I don't think it's gonna be a problem. And she said, I have to tell you something. I've been doing this for decades. And when I walked into your house, I felt this overwhelming sense of peace in your house like I've never in my life felt in anyone's house before.
Jon McKenney:And and I I said, thank you so much because that's what I want most right now in my life. I want peace. I I sit on the back deck or at the bay window, and I watch the deer walk back and forth in the back one way in the morning and back the other way. And when the when the coyotes when the fire truck goes back behind the house on the road about a mile behind me, the coyotes howl back at at night when the sirens go off, they howl, and it's wonderful, and birds and squirrels and armadillos occasionally and, you know, all kinds of things, and my neighbors have chickens. So we got lots of wildlife going up.
Jon McKenney:My house is peaceful, and my life, I strive to be to be in a place where I have peace. And if somebody you have somebody who's not emotionally stable or emotionally consistent, who's prone to anger or rage or depression also, you know, I'm not saying that there aren't seasons of sadness for people, death I mean, life happens. Right? That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about this kinda constant up and down one way or the other.
Jon McKenney:That's a very, very tough way to live. So you want somebody who's emotionally stable and emotionally consistent that you can count on.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yeah. I think last time we were talking about the last episode, we were talking about with my ex husband how there was no peace. Like, I always thought something bad was gonna happen because like you said about your ex wife, how there's always a bill that wasn't paid that you didn't know about. Well, that's exactly what was in my home.
Jon McKenney:Exactly. And in the end, just before I divorced, I found that my ex was hiding $20,000 worth of debt that I didn't know she had.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:You know, he would like lose jobs. He would constantly have debt that I didn't know about. He wanted to buy, I've I've talked about before how he wanted to buy, a seven series BMW, but at the time, he didn't have a job. And so he went out and got one, and I was supposed to pay, the bill for that. So it was just like you're saying there.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:My my emotions were always up and down because I didn't know what to expect because we were not a team. It was him making decisions and then me having to live with those decisions and Right. The problems that would come up. So I will tell you that today, I have so much peace. And mind you, I had an eight year period where I was bicoastal living in New York City and LA where I was just dating guys.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And so before I met my husband and that emotional stability was so important for me, John, because I knew that I could be emotionally stable. So I didn't want someone to come in and destroy my peace and my and my emotions. And sometimes people say, oh, the butterflies. No. I I don't I don't agree with the butterflies.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:I agree with people that meet and there is just this peace and there's a calm about them. The butterflies to me represent like just this up and down where you're like, I don't know if the person's gonna text me back. I don't know. I don't know. You're like kind of you're you're sort of at their beck and call.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Right? And one person's calling the shots and the other person is actually responding
Jon McKenney:to that.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Don't agree with that. I believe that somebody that brings you peace in your life, and that's what it was like with my husband. We we dated for three years. We didn't rush that process. Yes.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Issues would come up, but we would discuss them. And it wasn't like he was making unilateral decisions without me. And even when it came to his three children, which they were older, they were in their teens when when I met them seven years ago, and he would discuss it with me. He's like, well, what do you think about this? How do you think I should handle this?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And so that was really impressive, just the type
Jon McKenney:of things
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:that he brought into my life. And I believe he would tell you the same about me.
Jon McKenney:And, you know, I wanna I wanna mention something here, which is also on my list, which is it's some somebody who's willing to take time to get to know each other. These are not things that you can assess in one date or five dates or or in just a month's time. You need to see somebody in good seasons. You need to see them in bad seasons. You need to travel with them.
Jon McKenney:You need to you need to you need to see people over a period of time to begin to assess consistency and emotional stability. Because everybody has bad days, and you wanna make room for those kinds of things. But but and and those things don't make somebody emotionally unstable. It it's the constant up and down, the constant high and low and angry and rage and depression and all this. You want somebody who who you can count on and people who are emotionally stable emotionally unstable can't be counted on, and these things are assessed over time.
Jon McKenney:So you wanna make sure that you're with somebody who will take the time to to to build a relationship with you. I as I've gone back and, you know, what do I learn from my narcissist ex, my biggest mistake was not giving it enough time. From the time we started dating to the time we engaged, and I I hear people wanting to punch me already who are listeners, was three months from the time I started dating to the time I was I was engaged. And and I I can hear it now, but you could you moron? And I was a moron.
Jon McKenney:Like, I would never I would never do that again. These these things are assessed over a year or a year's time and and not quickly. So I I rushed into something I should not have rushed into. And I understand there are people out there that did that and it works, but I'll tell you what, the majority of the time, it doesn't work if you rush into something like that, and you don't have the time to assess somebody's character and how they handle the storms of life. So so that's that's on my list, emotional stability and and giving time.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yeah. I've I actually had emotionally safe, and then I also believe in giving it at least four seasons. I talk about that a lot on my
Jon McKenney:Yeah.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:On Instagram and TikTok, at least four seasons. That's one year. But really, I would say three years. At least three years. And, you know, here's the thing.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Once you have a child, like think about what John is saying emotionally safe or emotional stability. When you have a child with someone, if they're not emotionally safe or stable, imagine what that's gonna be like when you have a child or children or one. So don't just think about this like, just I wanna get married to this person, but what about are they gonna be a a stable parent for your child or your the children that you have together? So, you know, would you want that person like, I got to see my husband being a father, and that was really attractive to me because he was kind, he was patient, he was generous with them. He was generous to his ex wife, right?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:The mother of his children, although she wouldn't see it that way. But the way that I saw it was that, you know, she lacked for nothing. And so for me, that was very attractive because I got to see what a great father he was, although we don't have children together because we got married when we were older. So emotionally safe is what I put, which is exactly what you're describing.
Jon McKenney:And and well, you know what? Let's tackle let's go a little let's dive a little deeper on that. And and you said two things that I think are truly remarkable here. One is assessing somebody's ability to be a good spouse is one thing, and assessing their ability to to be a good parent are those are two different things. And you wanna evaluate them differently.
Jon McKenney:And I'm so glad you took the time to go do that because I think that's important as well. You need to if you're gonna be in a relationship with somebody and there's a potential for kids, or you you have kids and she has kids, and you're gonna bring them together in some capacity, even if the children are adults, you wanna make sure that there's they're good parents. So so you you want a good parent. The second thing that you said here that I think is remarkable, I think emotional safety is is almost an entirely different thing. It's it's it's is somebody empathetic?
Jon McKenney:Is you want somebody with empathy. You want somebody who who's a good confidant, who you can trust with your deepest self and have these conversations and never have them use against you, And you want somebody who's gonna gonna build into you in that capacity when when you when you have things that you struggle with. And and that that's emotional safety. Emotional safety is somebody who who sees you when you're struggling and is drawn to you instead of pushing you away, who wants to help instead of run, who doesn't rage at you or use your perceive your your your struggle as weakness, but lends their life and their experience and their emotional stability to it. Does is emotional stability a a part of that?
Jon McKenney:But yes. But I think emotional safety requires empathy. It requires compassion. It requires an understanding of the situations of life and what you might be going through. And that to me is emotional safety.
Jon McKenney:I I think that's it's another level of stability and and depth in relationship that I think is absolutely necessary.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Right. And and I would say that the third one along with what we're talking about is also communication. Right? Like, can they communicate with you? And not only are they speaking, but are you understanding?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Right? It's one thing if somebody's just talking about their feelings, but the other person's not really getting it. They're not understanding. Or they're saying, well, that's a weakness, you know, and you're just trying to communicate. Are they cutting you off when you're talking?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:I mean, I know John and I do that sometimes on the podcast. Like, I'll listen back and I'm like, we cut each other off a lot, but we're just so excited to, like, share, like, to share our knowledge with our listeners because we have had a difficult love life, and we don't want that for our listeners. And we also believe in recovery, and that's why we did this episode about the green flags. Communication is so vitally important. Last night I was asking my husband, you know, what are the five things that he would, want our listeners to know?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And the first one he said was communication. He said, not only speaking, but the other person understanding and comprehending.
Jon McKenney:That's really good. That's really good. That's absolutely correct. I mean, you want somebody that you can communicate with and somebody that you can resolve conflict with because conflict is is not necessarily a bad thing. Conflict happens in life.
Jon McKenney:You put two people in the same room together, there is going to be conflict at some point in time. You wanna be able you wanna have an ability to talk things through. That's a green flag. Without defensiveness, a green flag. And you want to have somebody who presses for closure, somebody who loves closure, where you get to this place where you you you it's resolved, and and you you you know, where where it's done.
Jon McKenney:Forgiveness is extended. The situation is done. Understandings are made. Perhaps compromises are made, and and situations or conflicts are completely resolved because those are the kinds of communications you want to have consistently. That's that's one of the most important things, I think, with communication, and you want somebody who's a master of communications skills.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Right. And not only I'm just shaking my head as you're talking. Not only closure, but doesn't bring it up again. Absolutely true. So true.
Jon McKenney:No idea. No account of wrongs.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Right. It's you're you're fully forgiven. You're not perfect. I'm not perfect, and doesn't bring it up. I think I mentioned a couple episodes ago that good friends of ours are getting divorced after thirty two years, and we had an opportunity to see them recently.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And one of the things that he's just started talking because they're living in the same house because they're getting divorced, but, they're living in the same house. And he said, you know, she brings up a lot of things that I did in the past to kind of rub in my face and bring it up. And he's like, and I can't have that because at some point, I need to be forgiven and not have my wrongs being brought up. Mhmm. And, you know, over thirty two years or my friend Lisa, forty four years, you're gonna go through stuff, John.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:You're gonna go through
Jon McKenney:ups and
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:downs all these. I'm not talking about cheating. Okay. I'm not talking about if somebody cheats. I'm talking about, you know, failures and and and things.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And so Mhmm. That was one of the things he's like, he just will not let go. So not only closure, but I would say forgiveness
Jon McKenney:as no keep keeping no record of wrongs. I I can remember I used to try to walk with my ex. We'd we'd walk the neighborhood. From day one, we got married. We'd we'd walk, and I'd I'd hoped the conversations were good.
Jon McKenney:They were often not. And I can remember her tearing me apart. And this is twenty twenty five years in, and I brought up something that she didn't wanna deal with. So she goes back. She literally went back twenty twenty years.
Jon McKenney:Well, you did this when you were dating. Okay. That was twenty years ago. Do think this is the appropriate time to bring that up? Like, I've not done it since.
Jon McKenney:So or and and maybe I didn't because I don't even remember it. But, again, keep somebody who keeps a record of wrong, somebody who's keeping a tally like that, somebody who's using something that happened decades ago, you know, dwells in the past like that is just not a good not a good person. So you want somebody somebody who doesn't keep an account of wrongs all the time too. I think that's spectacular. Yeah.
Jon McKenney:What else on your list, Padida?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:So Lisa and I were talking about this, and this would be the fourth one is so I'm gonna say this in a way that I hope the listeners kind of understand. So back in the day, like forty four years ago, okay, people talked about like meeting the family, right? Meeting the family was really super important because you wanted to know what their family life was, what their parents were like, what their siblings and cousins and all of that. And and Lisa said, you marry the family. And I don't know if, like, some of our younger generation of listeners are going, like, look, I don't know I don't care what his or her mom or dad are like or siblings are like, but this woman has been married happily for forty four years, and she's telling you that you marry the family.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And she said
Jon McKenney:So right.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:She said, you only know what you grew up in. And I was like, wait a minute. That is a golden nugget. You only know what you grew up in. And so she said, like with her home life, she is one of eight children.
Jon McKenney:Wow. That's a She
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:had a great parents. They were like a Catholic family, always in church. That's all she knew. And then with her husband, he grew up in a family where there was more fighting and things like that. And so, he's one of three.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And so she said when they got together, they did have to figure it out because, like, if he would raise his voice, she would be like, what are you doing? Because she didn't she didn't know that type of communication. She only knew, like, loving communication or soft or whatever it was. She said her father lived for her mom. Like, that's how close they were and was so respectful.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And so but they figured it out. Right? But it's important to at least meet the family and see what, you know, what their siblings are like because when you get married to someone, it's important those people become a part of your family as well.
Jon McKenney:This made my list as well, but in capacity, a in a different way. I I thought that that you want to know their family, but particularly pay attention to because I hadn't thought about the siblings thing. Her parents are emotionally healthy towards each other and are relationally close. Because as I look back on as I look back on on my my marriage to my narcissist ex, her parents were a a train wreck. And and ultimately, what what you said there about the family, you know, you only know what you grew up with.
Jon McKenney:What my ex grew up with was a passive aggressive, I I believe covert narcissistic mother who disrespected her husband to her children, and so much so that they've kind of I she destroyed their relationship with him for life. They're still not she's long gone now, about ten years, but they're still not close to their debt. And and and and you wanna you wanna assess that because that becomes the default setting for your relationship. If there's disrespect from mother towards father, you can be darn sure that that's gonna be the default setting for your relationship as well. And I need again, I didn't even thought about siblings and the the interaction with siblings, and you wanna be able to assess the conflict resolution skills of of the family.
Jon McKenney:Do they fight all the time? Are things open? Is it honest? Are things hidden? And you wanna be able to assess those kinds of things as well.
Jon McKenney:But looking at the relationship of the parents, I think, is a particular note and seeing if they're emotionally closed. Because if they modeled that to their kids, who's who you're potentially dating with, they're gonna be their their default setting is gonna be emotional health.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yeah. I mean, history does repeat itself. Right? I mean, we see that over and over, and these patterns sort of repeat themselves until and unless one of the children comes and sets a different standard and says like, no. I don't want this.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Do you know what I'm saying? So but that is a rare that's an anomaly. So like you said, your ex's your ex wife's parents were not good with one another, and the mother, did parental alienation for the father. Well, guess what? That's exactly the pattern that your ex wife did too.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yep.
Jon McKenney:100%.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:So it's like you and and you know what's interesting is as I listen to clients, I can see that because I do a lot more I ask a lot more questions, especially from childhood just because I love psychology and I have a background in psychology. And you can see, John, that history repeats itself sometimes with these stories. And that's why it's important, like my friend Lisa said, you only know what you grew up in.
Jon McKenney:Yep. Absolutely. That becomes your default setting through life, I think. Now is that is that stuff changeable? Yes.
Jon McKenney:It is changeable. Are there people who've grown up in very bad situations and come out on the other side of that very different? I will tell you that I bring a level of honesty to the table that I don't think my parents have ever had. They didn't exhibit that kind of stuff in the family. My family still doesn't have it, which is why I'm the scapegoat child and kind of excommunicated from the family because they don't they're just not honest people.
Jon McKenney:But but you you wanna take note of what their family is like. And quite honestly, her family didn't even like me. You know? At when I when my when I got our all of our parents together for the rehearsal dinner, I remember, my parents were in the car with her parents, and, you know, my parents were expressing at least joy over this union that was gonna happen. And and her dad's response was, yeah.
Jon McKenney:Well, we're really kinda hoping she'd marry somebody close to home so that she'd be around a little bit more, like, going, yeah. I'm not so excited about him. And so, you know, you you do marry the family. And quite honestly, we never had a close relationship. Their family was not so warm or embracing towards me, which was the opposite of my family.
Jon McKenney:They love her more than they love me, still to this day. So you want time with the family. You want time with the parents. You wanna examine the relationship. You wanna look for health in the marriage relationship between between their mother and father.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yeah. And I would say that is really important. I will tell you that my family is a very loving family. I was blessed to have great parents that their marriage was intact. I have got three amazing siblings and one of whom you've met my sister.
Jon McKenney:Yeah.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:I will tell you that they did not like my ex husband. And that is rare. Okay? For them not to like someone, John, is a rare thing. They just did not think he was right for me.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And with my current and final husband now, they adore him. Like, literally adore him. My mom will whenever she sees my husband, she holds his hand. She's she my mom's like in her nineties. Okay.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:She's the cutest person in the world. She holds his hand and she tells me she's like, make sure you're treating him right. Make sure you're patient with him. Like, she's giving me advice as if that's her son because in her mind that is her son. And so make sure that you're looking for these green flags, right?
Jon McKenney:100%.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:This should be like, as you're dating someone, especially off of the heels of a narcissistic, abusive relationship or marriage, look for the green flags. Look for these things. If these things are not there, ask yourself why, right?
Jon McKenney:His Totally.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Or her family are not welcoming, ask yourself why. Yep. Are they trying to sort of give you a hint? Are they saying like because, you know, they're you know, on TikTok, you see sometimes these things where they're like, you know, the the father talks to the guy, the the the white the you know, the potential wife's father talks to the guy and is like warning him. Like, you know, she's really high maintenance.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:She's really this. She's really that. And he's like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:I can handle it. Why would you want to handle it? Like, why would you want that? Because somebody that's high maintenance and can't maintain their own lifestyle and expects you to maintain it goes back to the first, issue that we talked about, which is the financial instability. So the you know, these things are you need to be doing some research on the person, and asking the parents and the siblings is a great way.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And also, would throw in friends, is a great way to see what, you know, see what see what they're like.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Yeah. Next up on my list is something that I I I actually just thought of as we were kind of in conversation here. And and and and on my list would be somebody who knows themselves, and and and knowing themselves means that that they have likes and they have dislikes and knows knows what makes them happy and what doesn't make them happy and and what irritates them and what doesn't doesn't irritate them. One of the things I've learned from my narcissist ex was that I let me let me go back for a second.
Jon McKenney:Narcissists do not introspect. They don't assess their behavior. And not only that, they have a very hard time assessing what they like and what they don't because that's a very introspective kind of it's it's a very introspective task. So that it requires pondering and thinking and evaluating inside your head what you like and what you what you don't what you what you don't like. Narcissists, oftentimes, remember, they don't have a very strong sense of self.
Jon McKenney:They don't understand these things. So what do they do? They take on we we call them sometimes personality vampires because they take on the likes of somebody else. So I, you know, I have I have antique cars and have always been fascinated with them and married into my relationship with her with with what was an antique car back then. And she acted like she loved them.
Jon McKenney:And and and I thought, wow. This is great. I got somebody who's who's a car fan and all this other stuff. And then in time, once she hooks you, you get the discard. They go, I don't really like that.
Jon McKenney:They've moved on to somebody else, and they absorb their personality and and take that on. So so you want somebody who has a a solid sense of what they like and what they don't, what they what makes them happy, what makes them sad, what they tolerate, what they don't. And and and and that will tell you whether they're introspective people or not, if they've thought these things through. I can remember even twenty years in, I bring my ex flowers every now and then they were always red roses. Right?
Jon McKenney:That's what you're supposed to do. So she brings red I I'd bring home red roses. And twenty years in, she said one day, you know, I don't like red roses. And I'm like, what? I've been bringing you red roses for the last twenty years.
Jon McKenney:I said, why didn't you tell me? She said, well, I kinda just figured that out, that I don't like them.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:I'm just Like, I every time you talk about this woman, I'm shaking my head. Like On I mean, like, imagine they it's, like, so invalidating too to you because you're like, I'm trying to do a really good thing and a romantic thing, and you could have told me this. Right?
Jon McKenney:100 yeah. A hundred years ago when I I brought you the first set. And what I what she said to me with that, she said, well, I really think I like yellow daisies better. So I like I like daisies. So what I did was next time I brought flowers, I had yellow daisies.
Jon McKenney:No big deal to me. Actually, they were cheaper than than roses anyways, but but I would have loved to have known. And the problem was she she didn't have favorites. She didn't have a favorite restaurant. Didn't have favorite food.
Jon McKenney:Didn't have likes. Didn't you know? And and people who who don't evaluate those kinds of things don't also don't evaluate their behavior. There's a there's an introspective process lost in a narcissist. And if they've got strong likes and they've got strong dislikes, that's not a bad thing.
Jon McKenney:That means that they've done the internal homework to know themselves well, and and and they bring that to the table, which means they've got an established sense of self, which means they're not narcissists. So narcissists do not have an established personality like that. They don't have an established sense of self. They missed it. They take on other people's things.
Jon McKenney:I think I talked in our last episode about how my she hated rap music. And then later on, as she got more attached to my son, she started to like rap music because he liked rap music and would do that. She would embrace and take on somebody else's personality traits. So so these are the kind this is another green flag, having somebody with an established sense of likes and dislikes and and can clearly evaluate themselves and their behavior, this introspective piece of them.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yeah. I mean, you know, somebody that's not fickle. That's, you know, somebody that, you know, likes certain things, but they're also compromising. Right? So maybe number six is like a compromising.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:You know, I love Mexican food. Okay? And and living in Southern California, there's no shortage of Mexican food. Right? And my husband is originally from Michigan, and so he's, like, not used to eating so much Mexican food.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:He's used to eating, like, burgers and hot dogs and meat and potatoes. That's fine. But, like, there's a compromise. Sometimes I get to choose. Sometimes he gets to choose.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:With my ex husband, he always chose, always to the point where, John, when I got separated, when somebody would ask me what kind of food do you like to eat, I did not know because my identity was so lost in him. And he was Italian, so he liked Italian food a lot. So it was like, all the time, you know, after work, I'd say, okay. Where are we going to dinner? And he'd say, well, Italian food.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And I go, can I have Chinese? Like, I love Chinese food or Korean food. Like, I love, you know, different kinds of food or, like, Thai food or Ethiopian food, like, anything else besides always Italian. And so he never and I'd and I'd say, why do you even ask me what I want to eat when you're gonna choose anyway? So there was no compromise.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:And this might seem like a little thing, but this little thing grew to be a big deal over a seven year period.
Jon McKenney:I bet. Because I
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:I didn't know even what I like to eat. Like yesterday, my husband and I, we were in Century City and I said, can we have Persian food? I'm it was a food court in the Century City Mall. And they said, well, I'm gonna have Iranian food because I'm Iranian. Right.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Iranian food. And so I said and he's like, well, I want that too. And I was like, really? You can have anything else, you know, in the in the food court. And he was like, no.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:I love Iranian food. And, like, he genuinely likes my culture and the food and the people and the language, and he's embraced all of that. And so somebody that can compromise with you, like you're saying like, okay, this is what I like. But when you, when two become one and you get married, it's all about also compromising and taking a moment to see like, what does this person want? Maybe that's not what they want at this time, or they don't have a taste for that.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Right? So how are you compromising and talking about the little things? Because they're gonna be big things later on.
Jon McKenney:Absolutely. If you can't in fact, what is it? Sometimes people when when people blow up in life, that's that's the reason. You know? It's the the the analogy of the the bottle.
Jon McKenney:Right? So when the pressure builds up inside, the little things in life build up inside, the bottle kind of snaps and there's a big explosion. And if you can't handle the little things, that really is a problem for the relationship because it winds up being something big.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yeah. And I wanna say number seven, and maybe we can end with seven, is religion, politics. You need to discuss them. Okay? And a green flag is the other person is willing to discuss them with you.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:You might not think that it's an important thing because you might say, well, I'm not really religious. Right? But when you have a child or children, you're going to have to have these discussions. What if your spouse wants to take your child to the mosque or the synagogue or to church? And you're like, well, I'm not religious and you knew that about me.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:This is where conflict arises or and also politics now. Right? So Yep. These are old school. Like, I remember my father who was a very old school Iranian man.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:He'd say religion and politics, and we used to look at him like, what are you talking about? Like, he was some dinosaur. Right? Like, dad, that just that stuff doesn't matter. You know, as long as you love the person and he'd be like, what does love have to do with anything?
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Right? Nope. Like, religion, politics, you know, are tough discussions to have, but somebody that's willing to have those discussions with you even if they're different. Right? We're talking about green flags.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Even if they're different. Yep. As long as they're willing to have those discussions with you and listen to you.
Jon McKenney:Yep. I've got one last thing real quick I'd like to say also that was made my list I thought was very important. They need to be able to take criticism without being defensive. If they if they can't take criticism and they start using it against you or turn the tables and make it all about something you've done and don't don't hear you, that's also something I think that's a big red flag as well. You're absolutely right.
Jon McKenney:I think the that political and religious things, you've gotta be on par there. Your value system has to be the same or it never works out. So you wanna look for an alignment in those kinds of things, and you want somebody who can handle criticism. You can say, hey. You know what?
Jon McKenney:This bothers me. And for them, again, going back to likes and dislikes, have have genuine introspective behavior and to go, okay. Am I hurting him or I hurt not hurting him? And because you want somebody that that does two things. Women need love and men need respect.
Jon McKenney:And and those two things have to be a part of the relationship, and it's all all symbolic of those kinds of things. Somebody who knows you and loves you will introspect because they wanna hurt you, and and you you don't wanna ever be in in with somebody who who perhaps is kind of malevolent. So, man, these have been great. It's been a great conversation, and I hope this is beneficial to our listeners. I think it will be.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yeah. I mean, you don't know what you don't know. And so just keep going out. Just keep dating. Just take your time, especially if you are off of the heels of a narcissistic relationship or marriage.
Jon McKenney:Yes.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Or you're seeing that your parents are narcissistic and you want to be different and you want to have a healthy relationship. Here are eight signs of green flags. I think we also talked about some of the red ones in between, but eight signs of green flags. You can have a healthy relationship and marriage. It is absolutely possible.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:My friend Lisa did it for forty four years. I've had a great relationship for seven years. It's possible, but you have to ask the hard questions. You have to be patient and you have to look for these eight green flags.
Jon McKenney:Totally. Totally. Just a reminder, Padit and I are both doing coaching. So if you're interested, reach out to us, in the in the in the closing, voiceover. You'll hear hear how to be in touch with us, and we'd we'd love to do some coaching with you if you need.
Jon McKenney:I do specialize with men, Padida, particularly in high conflict divorces and those kinds of things. So if you got questions about the the that stuff or or need of help with that, we we're we both avail ourselves to that. And this list that we've come up with is not exhaustive. There are other things. So we'd like your feedback.
Jon McKenney:Put it in the comments below on your platform of choice. Talk about talk about something that's been a green flag for you. We'd love to see your insight as well, Cause, we only have x amount of time and, and our insight is not these are not the only green flags in the world. So we'd we'd love to have your insight as well. And I guess we'll close it out today, Padida.
Jon McKenney:Until next week.
Padideh Jafari, Esq.:Yes, I hope that your day and life is narcissist free.
Jon McKenney:Have a great week.
Voiceover:Thank you for listening to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To hear other episodes or read the associated blogs, visit www.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram with the handle narc. Podcast. The guest views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are their own.
Voiceover:The information presented is for general purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice. The co hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional help as information is often state specific. The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is produced in studios in California and Georgia.