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As the Director of Diversity and Inclusion at AICPA, Crystal Cooke focuses on increasing the representation of minority groups in the accounting profession. In this episode, Crystal explains the current state of diversity and inclusion in the accounting industry, including ways to promote it and what AICPA is doing about it. Join Crystal and Stuart as they dissect the typical profile of the US accountant, and delve into the statistics around minority professionals.
Join Stuart McLeod as he interviews the world's top accounting leaders to understand their story, how they operate, their goals, mission, and top advice to help you run your accounting firm.
Stuart McLeod 00:00:05.778 [music] Hi, I'm Stuart McLeod, CEO and co-founder of Karbon. Welcome to the Accounting Leaders Podcast, the show where I go behind the scenes with the world's top accounting leaders. Today, I'm joined by Crystal Cooke, the director of diversity and inclusion team at AICPA, the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants. Before joining the association, Crystal spent 12 years at the Center for Audit Quality, where she managed governing board operations, and had the experience of working at KPMG for 7 years as an auditor in their assurance practice. Now Crystal focuses on increasing the representation of underrepresented populations in the accounting profession by making diversity and inclusion a priority in the areas of recruitment, certification, and advancement of ethnic minorities. It is my pleasure to welcome to the Accounting Leaders Podcast, Crystal Cooke. Crystal, welcome. Tell us a little bit about yourself and what your role is at the association.
Crystal Cooke 00:01:12.521 Thank you. Thank you so much, Stuart. Yes, I am the director of diversity and inclusion. And before we get into too much, I would like to share that my pronouns are she, her, and hers. And I know that everyone is only listening today, but I like to give people a visual into what I look like. And I am an African American woman with what I tend to call as latte-brown skin, so it's kind of light. I have short, curly, darkish hair. It's longer on the top, and it has little light highlights throughout, and it's cut shorter around the sides. I'm wearing glasses, and I typically stand about 5'11'' tall. But today I am sitting, and I'm in my home office in Bowie, Maryland. So thank you so much for having me today, and I'm looking forward to our discussion.
Stuart McLeod 00:02:06.672 Crystal, it's a pleasure and an honor to welcome you today, and I look forward to learning so much about your role and the impact that the association is having in the industry and as it's relating to DEI. And as I say, it's so good to meet you and talk to you about [what this?]-- to talk with you about this today. Thank you. I can't help but notice the hoodie that you mentioned. And so tell me about Ohio State. My college knowledge is basically zero, partly because of my accent [laughter] and partly because I just haven't lived with it all. So tell me all about Ohio State and how their teams went this year.
Crystal Cooke 00:02:47.202 Well, first of all, I'm going to have to give you a little background. So I didn't--
Stuart McLeod 00:02:52.104 Please, please.
Crystal Cooke 00:02:52.386 --go to Ohio State, so people always think that I did because I'm such a huge fan. But I'm from the Columbus, Ohio area, which is where Ohio State is. I grew up in a town called Westerville, Ohio, which is a suburb of Columbus. And so Ohio is a little different in that anyone, probably, who goes through there is brainwashed into being an Ohio State fan. [laughter]
Stuart McLeod 00:03:17.072 Oh, I see. So if you pass through just one time, you're an Ohio State person.
Crystal Cooke 00:03:22.100 Well, people who are raised-- people who are raised there. So I don't know in elementary school, if where you're from, they have choir classes. Do you guys have choir in elementary school?
Stuart McLeod 00:03:35.281 Well, so I went to a primary school called Syndal South Primary in Melbourne, suburban Melbourne. Back then, it was probably only 30 minutes to the city. These days, it's probably an-hour-and-a-half traffic. [laughter] Did we have choir? Well, if you call a couple of 9-year-olds butchering the Australian national anthem every Friday, I guess that we did.
Crystal Cooke 00:04:03.293 Yes, that is choir.
Stuart McLeod 00:04:04.096 But certainly not like you. [laughter]
Crystal Cooke 00:04:06.269 That is definitely choir. I'm sure we sounded terrible, but yes, we had choir class. And in those choir classes, they teach you the Ohio State fight songs, all the different songs they play in college, so you know them. And that's all everyone does on the weekends during football season is watch Ohio State football. So I, for a while in my youth, thought Ohio State was the only university that was out there. [laughter]
Stuart McLeod 00:04:35.731 Yes. Yeah, there's only one university in all of America. Lucky we live near it. [laughter]
Crystal Cooke 00:04:41.764 Exactly. That's how they make you feel anyway as a youth, and then you obviously get older and realize. And so I actually went to the University of Cincinnati, which is about two hours down the road, and I am also at the University of Cincinnati-- you very easily could have caught me in a UC sweatshirt. I wear them back and forth and rotate. But I like to say that Ohio State is my true love, my first love, but I have others--
Stuart McLeod 00:05:06.295 My first love. Yeah.
Crystal Cooke 00:05:07.061 --after that, so yeah. But Ohio State, they're pretty good. I think they're probably more so known for their football team. And we did okay this year. So I don't know if you know about Ohio State-Michigan rivalry is a huge thing for us, and we lost to them this year--
Stuart McLeod 00:05:25.751 Yes. Yeah, I've heard a little bit about that.
Crystal Cooke 00:05:27.423 --for the first time in 10 years.
Stuart McLeod 00:05:29.672 Oh, no. Oh, no.
Crystal Cooke 00:05:29.963 So that was not cool at all, so. And that actually hurt our chances of going into the playoffs. So it's kind of a-- we still were like sixth in the country or something. We were still pretty high up there. But losing to Michigan always kills everything. It doesn't matter to us if-- we could have a losing season and beat Michigan, and we'd be all happy. [laughter]
Stuart McLeod 00:05:53.756 Right. Yes, yeah, a bit like Collingwood-Carlton from where I am. But is Michigan the Harbaugh coach?
Crystal Cooke 00:06:00.264 Yes.
Stuart McLeod 00:06:01.128 Michigan, no?
Crystal Cooke 00:06:02.096 Yes.
Stuart McLeod 00:06:02.074 Yes. Right, okay. So they have to pay 25 million for their coach just to beat Ohio. So I think you should get a head start.
Crystal Cooke 00:06:10.275 I like you, Stuart. [laughter]
Stuart McLeod 00:06:16.686 [laughter] I'm slowly learning a little bit about football. It's a very complex game, and I quite enjoy it. But it's complex technically. It's complex racially. It's complex economically. It's a--
Crystal Cooke 00:06:28.624 Yeah. It's a big revenue stream too, so.
Stuart McLeod 00:06:32.965 Oh, yeah. It's a huge industry in the country.
Crystal Cooke 00:06:36.334 Yep, absolutely. So--
Stuart McLeod 00:06:39.229 And so you went to Cincinnati's university. And what did you study there? How--
Crystal Cooke 00:06:45.078 That--
Stuart McLeod 00:06:45.651 What were you going to be when you grew up?
Crystal Cooke 00:06:47.287 An accountant. [laughter]
Stuart McLeod 00:06:50.118 Oh, really? Yeah, I don't hear that very often. Usually, people fall into accounting.
Crystal Cooke 00:06:55.354 No, that's the funny--
Stuart McLeod 00:06:56.957 Did you have parents and the likes that were accountants?
Crystal Cooke 00:06:58.789 Yes, my mother was an accountant. So that's kind of how I got into accounting. We've done a research at the association, and it says that most people who go into accounting either knew somebody who was an accountant or they took an accounting class in high school. Those are the two top reasons. And my mother was an accountant. She was in taxes, though, and I did not go the tax route. I [went the?]-- [laughter]
Stuart McLeod 00:07:25.914 You didn't like the depreciation schedules, your 1099s, your W-2s.
Crystal Cooke 00:07:32.135 She still does them for fun. She doesn't practice anymore.
Stuart McLeod 00:07:34.881 Does she? Oh, wow.
Crystal Cooke 00:07:35.745 But she thinks it's "fun," and I'm quoting, "fun" to do taxes.
Stuart McLeod 00:07:39.932 Yeah, yeah, yeah. [crosstalk] quotes.
Crystal Cooke 00:07:40.392 And I went the audit route, which I loved audit. So that's kind of how I got into it. So yeah, I went to school for accounting, graduated with an accounting degree, did a little bit of an internal audit. And that wasn't my thing. And so then I went the public accounting route. And so that's what led me-- I went to KPMG, had great experiences there. And then from there-- I think all the while through KPMG, I was living my DEI journey, I like to say. I didn't know I was, but I was doing it-- I did not envision myself being a DEI professional. I was going to be-- I was going to go into the firm, and I was going to be a partner, and I was going to do all these things. I had my path all put in. But I tell people, "Only one person knows your path," person, I guess you can say, "and that's the man up above." [laughter] So I was like, you're--
Stuart McLeod 00:08:36.142 He had a different path for you.
Crystal Cooke 00:08:38.742 He had a very different path for me, one that I didn't even know I had. But I've enjoyed that path. And that path has taken me to a place that I'm very passionate about, so I'm happy where it ended.
Stuart McLeod 00:08:50.667 Well, it hasn't ended yet.
Crystal Cooke 00:08:50.828 Well, ended for me now.
Stuart McLeod 00:08:51.944 Long way to go. Long way to go.
Crystal Cooke 00:08:52.851 I'm pausing here and sitting here for [a while?].
Stuart McLeod 00:08:55.098 For today, for today. That's right. [laughter] And so I'm interested in that state when you sort of say you were living that diversity and inclusion journey. What did that mean to you in KPMG? Why do you say that in hindsight, looking back on that?
Crystal Cooke 00:09:12.667 So as a minority in the accounting profession-- I'm a Black woman. I'm a woman. And so there's--
Stuart McLeod 00:09:23.522 Full stop. [laughter]
Crystal Cooke 00:09:24.213 --those two things alone. [laughter] I think everybody in accounting knows the profession is predominantly White men. And so I was in many rooms where I was the only one. And I had two choices. I could either try and change the narrative and help make it a more inclusive environment, or I could leave it. And I chose to stay and try and help make the change. And so when I was going through these different scenarios and maybe being the only one in an audit room or-- I'm still sometimes the only one in rooms. And how do you help educate those around you on how to be more inclusive? And how do I make people comfortable who aren't normally used to being around a person of color? And I feel like that is-- I don't have to do that, no. And is it my responsibility? Probably not, but I welcome that because I think that's what's going to help change, if we can give each other grace, and be welcoming of each other, and room for this growth. If you learn more about me, you're more comfortable around me, and the next person you meet when you're more comfortable around. And so that's how we change and evolve. And I've decided that I wanted to be part of that change, and that's kind of what-- and I realized, like, "I've been doing this my whole life," and I don't know if you can tell, I'm kind of an extroverted person where I will go out of my way to talk to people. [laughter] And so it was easy for me, and it was natural for me. And I also grew up in Westerville, Ohio, which was predominantly White. So my whole upbringing prepared me for this career. [laughter]
Stuart McLeod 00:11:05.000 Experience.
Crystal Cooke 00:11:05.789 So I knew how to navigate, and I wasn't uncomfortable, even though I was the only one. I guess that saying they say, "Get comfortable being uncomfortable," I was that way my whole life. So when I got to be a professional, it wasn't that awkward for me to navigate. And so I felt like I belonged. I felt like I earned my spot there, and I felt like I deserved to be there. And so nothing was going to make me leave other than me deciding to leave on my own because I wanted to. And so that's what I decided to do, and I kept with it, and that was my dream to KPMG. Now, I only left KPMG because I unfortunately never actually got my CPA license. That was for many reasons. I think culturally, I was taught to-- you graduate, you take care of yourself, you get a job. You don't come home. You don't just go home and get more money from mom and dad. You're done at college, and you get to working. And that's kind of how my brain was programmed. And so as soon as I graduated, that's what I was trying to do.
Crystal Cooke 00:12:12.070 If I could do it all over again, I probably would have paused after I graduated. I think I didn't have a mentor either to kind of walk me through that accounting journey at school as to how I did it. My mom's path was different, and she's not a CPA either, but she worked in accounting. And so I didn't have that education as to, "You should just take the exam now. You should do all--" so we didn't have the fifth year and all that kind of stuff. So I missed that kind of guidance in my career trajectory. And I felt like I could do it while I was working, which was-- when I talk to students now, I say, "Listen to me. [laughter] If I can be an example to you, take that exam before you start working." That is the one regret that I have because once I started working, it was just impossible for me. And it was hard. And I also did not have the money at the time to front for all these expenses, which is thus, again, why I felt like I needed to start working. I started working. I could then pay for the exam. But none of these things-- it was the perfect storm of wrong choices and, yes, circumstances. Yes.
Stuart McLeod 00:13:21.873 Well, and circumstance [crosstalk].
Crystal Cooke 00:13:23.702 So I didn't sit and life happened. Life got busy. By then, I'm married. I have two kids. It just started to get to a point-- by then, the rules changed. I needed 150 hours, and so it was just a lot of things happening. But I was fortunate, I like to say blessed. And I think my accounting degree still held value, even though I didn't have my CPA license, and I was still able to get to the-- not that I'm promoting not getting the CPA because I still would do that.
Stuart McLeod 00:13:59.383 [Yeah, sure?]. You'd get in trouble with your boss.
Crystal Cooke 00:14:01.665 That's it. [laughter] But that is my one regret, and maybe I'll still go back and get it at some point. But I think that is a-- people who have that, if you're an accountant, nobody can tell you no at this point, right? People can still tell me no in certain situations. And so you should never set yourself up to be in a position where somebody can tell you no. That's what I tell the students, but I use myself as a learning opportunity. But like I said, it still brought me on a path that-- it was just as fruitful. I was still able to work with the Center for Audit Quality and still work in the accounting field. I'm now in an accounting association. I'm still in the accounting environment. I've just pivoted and gone into DEI, and I actually feel, like I mentioned earlier, it's developed into a passion.
Crystal Cooke 00:14:51.962 I want to see others who look like me go down the same journey. They, too, deserve to be here. They, too, deserve to know about this career and know how beneficial it is. No matter what path they take, having this career, this education is going to do nothing but help. And so I want others to see that. I want to be a part of the change in making this profession diverse. It should look like all of us, and I want to help do that. And so it's developed into all of that. And so now I'm just like, "I can't leave until I see some change." That's part of my mission in life is to help change that and meant to help other young accountants or aspiring accountants, give them encouragement and guidance, and be that mentor to those that I didn't have, that kind of walked me through and kind of gave me guidance and help. And so that's kind of how I got here.
Stuart McLeod 00:15:50.525 Yeah, yeah. Well, there's so much we can dive into. Look, you don't have to be specific if you don't want to. But I'll ask, was there a clear moment for you at KPMG? Were there circumstances, good or bad, where you just had to be really resolute and like, "I really want to change this outlook, change this behavior, change this view, or try and get others included"? Do you know what I mean? Was there poor situations or good situations that sort of pushed you down this path?
Crystal Cooke 00:16:33.509 I honestly don't remember feeling-- actually, now that I say that out loud, I remember there was a situation where I was a senior on a job. And so I assume everyone knows how an audit team works. And a bunch of us are sitting in this room at a conference table, or-- it's either a conference table, or you have all your desks in a room. It's you as the senior in charge and your staff members. Sometimes your manager is there, but my manager wasn't there that day. And we're all sitting there working on things, women and men, and the client comes in. I'm in there. I'm in charge, technically. And so the client comes in, and he goes to the student or my staff that is a White man and says, "Are you in charge?" He didn't even think to come to me. I was in the room, and my staff said, "No, she is." And he's like, "Oh, okay." So I mean, that happened. But I didn't make a big deal about it. I just was like, "Yes, how can I help you, sir? I am the senior in charge," that kind of thing. So little things like that would happen, not so much on my-- I don't remember it so much as happening on my engagement team. I think there's always situations where people aren't sure what to say to you. They aren't sure how to say things to you. I don't know if there's-- I'm told it's a fear, fear for the reaction that they may receive. Or sometimes even men are fearful to say things to women for legal reasons. There's all these little things that you experience that you're just kind of like-- let it brush off your shoulder, and you just keep on moving. You don't really say things about--
Crystal Cooke 00:18:28.122 But yeah, those are the kind of instances that I saw. But I don't think those are what led me to DEI, to be completely honest. I think I was just navigating through those things through life as just normal life experience as a person of color, as a woman. That's just the life we lead. And so I was just kind of going on and on. And I don't even think at that time I knew there was such a thing as a DEI leader. I was just kind of going along and living my life and experiencing things and navigating them. And then when I got to the Center for Audit Quality and started working more prominently in the talent space, the DEI work came up, and I was like, "Oh, yes, this is an element." And then I thought, "I've been living this my whole career. I totally know what this is," and, "I'd be excellent at this because I know this firsthand." And so the AICPA at the time-- now they're the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants, but they still have, which is the team I'm on now, the DEI team that works solely on external DEI for our members, and we worked collaboratively a lot.
Crystal Cooke 00:19:40.171 At the Center for Audit Quality, I would work on public company audit. And I would work on recruiting and bringing people into the profession broadly, not any one firm, but just bringing you into the broadly, not any one specific-- but we would focus on audit and explaining what audit is and trying to-- most people know about the tax part of accounting, but they don't know about the audit side. So we would kind of go around educating about that. And of course, it naturally had a DEI pillar, I guess you could say, to it. And so we would then focus-- and that's a piece where I would collaborate with [crosstalk] the AICPA team. And so when my predecessor left, who we had worked together a lot in many instances, she then said, "Hey, I can see this is what you're passionate about. You're good at it. You should apply for my job." And so that's kind of how it went. I like to tell people-- so we have a group here that's called the National Association of Black Accountants, NABA. Not sure if you've heard of them, but they have a motto that's-- good.
Stuart McLeod 00:20:41.981 Yep. Yep, yep. Yep, we have.
Crystal Cooke 00:20:42.716 So they have a motto that's called--
Stuart McLeod 00:20:45.006 We have, yep.
Crystal Cooke 00:20:46.442 That's, "Lift as you climb." And so it's all about taking someone along as your journey as you go, bringing somebody up with you. And that's what my predecessor-- her name is Kim Drumgo. That's what she did. And I like to say she lifted, I climbed, and I joined. [laughter] Yes.
Stuart McLeod 00:21:05.024 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. She laid the path for you, and all you needed to do is make sure you walk along it, right?
Crystal Cooke 00:21:11.750 And I interviewed, and I think my unique perspective of having walked the journey helps when I do my work every day. And I've been doing it ever since. I've been doing this 2 years now. And the work is sometimes exhausting, I'm not going to lie. But it's a good exhaustion because I think you kind of have to go through that for things to change. If it's all easy, you're probably not doing anything. But it's when things get hard is when you start changing things around.
Stuart McLeod 00:21:43.033 Yes. That's right. That's right. That's true for many, many aspects in life. That's a fascinating journey. So let's talk-- we as a group that work with accountants across the world, sad to say, but the sort of 55-, 60-year-old male, White male, is the predominant species of the industry. But before we get into some of that, and you probably know the numbers better than-- well, I don't know the numbers at all. So you probably have the numbers, but it feels like to me that across the globe, getting young people interested in accounting, getting colleges, universities to promote accounting degrees-- and it feels like that for every accountant that retires, we might get half or three-quarters of one or maybe a whole one that sort of commences their career in accounting. Do you know the numbers off the top of your head? Is the industry expanding? Is it basically staying the same in America? Do you know where that's up to or what the trend is at the moment?
Crystal Cooke 00:22:51.121 For people enrolling in accounting?
Stuart McLeod 00:22:53.358 Yeah, for sort of accounting graduates and people moving into the industry.
Crystal Cooke 00:22:55.832 Yeah. So we had a trends report that we issue every other year. We've been issuing it since, I think, 1971 or something.
Stuart McLeod 00:23:07.740 There's probably a trend or two in there then, yep.
Crystal Cooke 00:23:09.613 Yeah. [laughter] And it shows that the percentage of people entering accounting, now, from a diversity lens, because I'm a diversity person, it's about 60% White and 40% non-White is what we call it. And that's the ratio of what it is. As you go to graduation, those numbers drop a little bit because I think naturally, in any profession or any career, people who enroll don't always graduate for whatever reason. So that drops off. And then hiring into the firms is about 70/30, 70% White, 30% non-White. And that's been pretty stagnant, if I can recall, back for several years. And so that number is what that gap is. We're trying to get more than that 30% into the profession. And how do we change those numbers? And then if you look at that 30% that's hired, don't go in all the way into the partnership, that number drops all the way to 9%. Only 9% are making it to partners. And if you slice that by ethnic group, it's like single digits, so less than single digits. And so it's kind of like-- the numbers aren't good.
Crystal Cooke 00:24:34.028 And if you look at it-- I know sometimes you have to look at it, too, in individual categories, for instance, Black. The percentage of Black people in the United States is, I think, 13 or so or somewhere around there. And I think only 9 of those are going into accounting, I believe is the number. Or there's 9% of the non-White categories that I told you is [9?]. And so once you go all the way up to how many CPAs are in the profession for our trends report - and so it's projections and all that - only 2% of CPAs are Black. So you got to kind of dice the information and look at it. And so it shows that we have work to do. But I've heard some early projections from our trends report. We're getting ready to enter the team. I don't work on the team that does the trends report, but I've told that the numbers have gone up a little on diversity for 2022. So I won't get into that too much until the data gets out since I don't have the actual numbers to support what I'm saying. But I think there has been growth over the years, minor growth, which is crazy because we all feel like we're doing a lot, at least I do.
Stuart McLeod 00:25:49.867 Yes, yes. So to move the needle is hard.
Crystal Cooke 00:25:53.881 So to move the needle is hard. And we have to work on so many things at the same time that need to happen. But yeah, I think-- and the women, actually, the gender numbers have grown.
Stuart McLeod 00:26:06.652 I was going to ask you about that too.
Crystal Cooke 00:26:06.318 So now women are exceeding men going into accounting.
Stuart McLeod 00:26:11.019 Oh, good. Good.
Crystal Cooke 00:26:11.443 And so it's right there. So those numbers are turning around, which is good. But again, the partnership numbers, I think it's only-- at least from this last data. I'm not sure what this latest data set says. But in 2019 data, the women, it was 23% or 24%, which was up [3?]-- which is up 2 percentage points from the last time we did it. So it is growing. But again, still work to be done, still growth to be done, but.
Stuart McLeod 00:26:43.096 Well, hopefully, at least-- we'll come back to the ethnic and color minorities. But hopefully, I would suggest that with COVID and firms moving to more flexible working arrangements and working from home and the shortage of talent across the world--
Crystal Cooke 00:27:03.783 Great resignation.
Stuart McLeod 00:27:04.455 --they're creating more-- the great resignation. My team, please don't resign. We need you. [laughter] We'd like to think-- and I'm sure it'll play out because we've seen so many of our customers, so many of the firms we work with have shifted their flexibility and geographic locations. And all of that kind of thing can only help women who-- I know I'm stereotyping but ultimately, raising kids and need more flexibility in order to take on the hefty role of partner and those higher management positions. So hopefully, those numbers will move up over the next couple of years.
Crystal Cooke 00:27:42.495 Absolutely. Yep. And I think there's firms now that are remote only, and [even that's?] a playing field for the caregivers, which I don't think it's stereotypical to say that it's women because the women are often-- not only, but often the caregivers in family, whether that's for a parent or a child or whatever. And so it does affect women differently. That's just the reality of it.
Stuart McLeod 00:28:09.526 Yeah. And us husbands can often--
Crystal Cooke 00:28:13.188 Their spouses--
Stuart McLeod 00:28:14.538 --need similar care [effort?] [crosstalk].
Crystal Cooke 00:28:15.822 Their spouses. It may not be a husband.
Stuart McLeod 00:28:19.219 That's true. That's true. Thank you. I need [laughter] some schooling on this stuff. I try, I try, I try. I really do. I really do.
Crystal Cooke 00:28:28.008 That's okay. I told you earlier, I educate. I'm happy to educate.
Stuart McLeod 00:28:32.593 Yes. Every day is a school day for me, I tell you. [laughter] Okay. Well, Crystal - this is probably the 100ish-million-dollar question - how do we promote and attract minorities? And technically, we can include women in that because anything that's not a White male over the age of about 55 is a minority in the accounting industry. How do we promote and attract diversity and diverse groups to the industry?
Crystal Cooke 00:29:08.390 So this is a lovely question because there's not one thing that we need to do, which I know people want to hear. "What's the one magic thing we can do?" I think--
Stuart McLeod 00:29:17.999 Oh, yeah. What are the 300 things we can do? [laughter]
Crystal Cooke 00:29:22.077 I'll break it down to two things for you, the two things that I think'll help. One - these are Crystal Cooke's feelings - I think we need to get back into high schools, to our discussion earlier to where you go into accounting because you either know somebody who's in accounting, a family member or cousin or whatever, or you took an accounting class. Well, for our ethnic minorities, we are finding that they don't know an accountant. They aren't as fortunate to need to have an accountant, or they attend a school that didn't have an accounting class. Many schools actually don't have accounting classes. And especially in nonaffluent areas, they don't have the resources to support an accounting class. So they may not even hear about accounting until they get into college, which I mean, they may hear about it at tax time, "There's this person who does our taxes," or whatever, but they don't understand the full magnitude of what accounting can be and what an accounting career can give you.
Crystal Cooke 00:30:20.631 And so I think getting back into high schools to widen that pipeline of people who are even interested in accounting to begin with, from diverse backgrounds, and not diverse, because I think the whole pipeline needs to continue. But especially for diverse, it starts in high school, and it starts to bring in those-- if you go to a career class or for those that have some kind of financial literacy class or something like that, you can bring in accounting that way and tell them about all the benefits of accounting. If you want to own your own business one day, you can be an accountant. You need to learn-- that's the most inner workings of the business is from learning the statements and things like that. If you want to become a CFO, you can become a-- you can do that through accounting. You can be the accountant for Stephen Curry. There's all these-- [laughter] you know basketball, because you said you didn't know football?
Stuart McLeod 00:31:15.926 Oh, yeah, no. Well, it's just a funny example. I mean, he probably needs a team of accountants [in the?] amount of money he makes. [laughter]
Crystal Cooke 00:31:21.737 Exactly. Yes, exactly. But I'm saying, these are the stories that the students need to hear as to how it works. And I think even if you break it down, "You're the person that counts the money," there's things that you can-- ways that you can get it across that people understand what it really is. So that's the one thing, I think, is broadening the education around the career early. And in that awareness, how you sell the profession-- sell is not probably the better word--- is not a good word, but how you--
Stuart McLeod 00:31:52.123 Promote.
Crystal Cooke 00:31:52.761 --promote - thank you - the profession too. You need to make sure that you're talking about all those opportunities and all those experiences, and it's the language of business, all that kind of stuff. So that's the first thing. The second thing is all that work that we're doing in high schools doesn't even matter if they don't see themselves in the profession. They need to be able to-- diverse people I'm talking about. So if you're joining a career and you see that there's no women in leadership at that organization, why would I want to work there? If I go there and I see that there's no people who look like me, who have my cultural background, do I feel like I'm included, that I'm valued there? Probably not.
Crystal Cooke 00:32:36.317 And so how do you change that to make your business or your workplace a place where everyone who walks through that door feels that they're valued there, that they have a sense of belonging there, that they can contribute? And you can't if you just don't have that staff there. And so you have to kind of work on both those things together. And those, I feel like, are two crucial pieces. There's other things between entry-level and retention is what we call that, and that helps to keep them in the pipeline. There's also college and all that kind of stuff. And people will tell you-- I'm on the board of a PhD project, and they always talk about how it's important for students to see people that look like them in front of the classroom, too, who are teaching them. And so there's all these different elements to what helps along the pipeline to make them feel like they can be a part of the career, so.
Stuart McLeod 00:33:30.766 Yeah. No, that makes sense. A couple of things come to mind. I mean, the financial literacy, I don't know how-- again, I probably should do some research. But I've lived 10 years in the States now, and I don't think-- Australia is certainly no better. That's for sure. But to be able to-- the number of people that can properly read a balance sheet and a P&L in business life is surprisingly low.
Crystal Cooke 00:33:59.580 Yes. I don't even know that you would see one in most cases, most people.
Stuart McLeod 00:34:06.181 Yeah. But anybody that's in sales, marketing--
Crystal Cooke 00:34:10.230 Business.
Stuart McLeod 00:34:11.341 --business, any type of business, right, even if you're all-knowing, you need to be able to have that financial literacy to achieve your goals and everything. So I guess there's a couple of halo effects, right, of trying to promote diversity and the industry generally is that financial literacy aspect, right?
Crystal Cooke 00:34:32.609 I think that's a good avenue in because like I said, they may not have the accounting class or something, but most schools teach about financial literacy, I think. And there's a lot of programs through Junior Achievement, all these kind of things, that they teach about how to be financially savvy and understand what your money is doing. And that's a perfect segue into accounting.
Stuart McLeod 00:34:57.704 Yeah, yeah. No, completely. And so what are the programs that the institute and the various bodies in the industry have going to sort of try and achieve the pretty monumental task?
Crystal Cooke 00:35:14.467 So we focus on a lot of areas outside of just ethnic minorities, which is kind of what we've been talking about a lot today. But outside of ethnic minorities, we focus on women, which we've been talking about today too. But we also have an LGBTQ+ focus area. It's our newest focus area that we've added to our suite. We formalized the committee around it last year. So it's going on its first year of work, and they've developed a strategic plan, and we're starting to get our activities together. And then we have a young-member focus as well, so generational diversity. And it's making sure that our-- to our earlier point about pipeline, it's making sure that our younger professionals stay in the profession, that we support them and provide them with the resources that they need and the networks that they need and the skill sets. And all our groups also intersect. So we may have something for our young professionals that are ethnic minorities, and we may have something for women of color, or we kind of figure out-- we support things. We also look at disabilities. And we had a webcast with an accounting firm that has somebody who has autism, and how do you widen your workforce to bring in disabilities as well? And I think for this particular firm, they grew more from the individual than the individual grew. And so those kind of relationships, when you're inclusive, everyone thrives.
Crystal Cooke 00:36:47.384 And so we also had a-- one of our members is hard of hearing, and she wrote a blog or helped us with a blog on how to be more inclusive of hard-of-hearing accountants. And so there's all these different elements that we don't necessarily think of on a day-to-day basis that we need to be working to make our environments inclusive for everyone. So getting the diversity in the door is one thing, but then the E and the I are just as important, right? How are we giving everybody equitable opportunities, and how are we making everybody feel like they belong here? So all that kind of stuff. And so that's kind of high level how we do our work. But we have events that support all those areas, that support students, that support young members, that support women. We have webcasts, educational opportunities for our members in those areas, and so that's kind of how we support our membership. And so our team is external facing, so all of our things help to support our members who are also walking the DEI journey and giving them the support that they need to navigate that.
Stuart McLeod 00:37:59.682 Have you seen some great DEI programs in other industries that you're sort of like, "Oh, wow, I wish I could sort of copy that?" Or are you trailblazing [crosstalk]--?
Crystal Cooke 00:38:08.460 I mean, my hands are full with our industry. [laughter] But I know that other industries have challenges, the same challenges that we do. We aren't alone in that. There's a lot of industries that are struggling with diversity like us. And so just kind of leveraging more so and seeing what other people are doing, how they're-- a lot of it is, sometimes our situation is unique in that we have to figure out ways to-- I tell people, "You have to do things in a way where they can be received." I can't just bark at people and tell them they need to be more diverse, da, da, da, da. I have to speak to them in a way that they can-- just like you learn in a classroom. We all learn differently. And so it's learning who our audience is and how they receive. And so it's not always you can just take something that somebody else does, but it's kind of learning how do other accountants, how do those White men that we talked about-- how do I reach them? How do I help them understand these challenges?
Stuart McLeod 00:39:19.944 Yeah. Apart from on the golf course. [laughter] Maybe you've got to go there to reach them.
Crystal Cooke 00:39:27.037 And it's not always just the White men. A lot of people don't know how to be inclusive leaders. And so how do you-- I don't think I learned how to be an inclusive manager. No one ever gave me training on that. I don't think that was a thing. But now we want people to be inclusive, so we need to give managers training on that, tips and tools. And a lot of that is really just opening up an environment where you can make each other feel like you can trust and talk to each other and making it a safe place. And so there's tricks and metrics, but there's little exercises that you can do to make your teams feel more safe and be able to talk to each other and have those uncomfortable conversations that just need to happen because that's how we're going to grow. And so all that kind of training never really happened, but now it needs to. And so it's empowering people to do that, too, and have those.
Stuart McLeod 00:40:25.781 Yeah. I feel like my experience with a lot of these sensitive areas-- to be honest, when we first arrived, particularly in this country, because it's so prevalent in society, they were discouraging uncomfortable conversations. I mean, we actively got taught, "Don't talk about religion. Don't talk about color. Don't talk about gender, and don't talk about sports because you might get into an argument. And so you can talk about the weather, and that's about it, near the water cooler." It's kind of the opposite, [hopefully?]. Has it changed, do you think?
Crystal Cooke 00:41:01.908 And see the problem [inaudible], and that's why we are where we are now.
Stuart McLeod 00:41:06.039 That's right. That's right. [laughter] Well, let us not get into politics. [inaudible]. Yeah. We--
Crystal Cooke 00:41:12.154 I know. But I think that we all were kind of taught that. You don't talk about that at work. But that's how you learn about each other. We actually have a mantra that we say on our National Commission on Diversity and Inclusion - that's the committee that supports our ethnic minority work - and we always start every meeting, and we say, "We are going to suspend our rights to be offended before we go into our discussion today."
Stuart McLeod 00:41:39.232 Oh, lovely.
Crystal Cooke 00:41:39.651 And that just kind of gives everybody the freedom to just say what you want. We assume positive intent. We might touch on some topics that might be sensitive, but we realize that we're all learning and trying to grow from each other. So if you say something wrong, we will correct you. But we know that was not your intent. And so that gives people-- they can let their guard down and just talk and learn, and we give each other grace. That's the thing, grace. We all need to give each other just a little bit of grace so that we can learn and not be so bullyish to each other when people make a mistake. That's okay. You made a mistake.
Stuart McLeod 00:42:22.659 Or even when they don't. [laughter]
Crystal Cooke 00:42:24.911 Yes, yes. Right.
Stuart McLeod 00:42:26.658 Yeah, [crosstalk].
Crystal Cooke 00:42:27.947 And so how do we get past it? And, "Okay. You said something wrong. I will kindly correct you," and then next time, you won't say it again, or you won't do it again. And then you've grown, and we've all become better because of it.
Stuart McLeod 00:42:42.132 Feedback is a gift.
Crystal Cooke 00:42:43.541 Yes, yes. So yeah. So no, I think that's just it. We just got to-- we can't hide behind and not talk about those uncomfortable things to get past it. We need to talk about it and then understand it, appreciate it, and then we can move forward together, so.
Stuart McLeod 00:43:03.591 Yeah. What are some of the highlights? What are some of the successes that you've had in this role so far? Because it really is a fascinating journey that you've had. I'm sure there's a couple of highlights.
Crystal Cooke 00:43:16.689 I mean, getting to where I am in the accounting profession, like I said, without my CPA, that's a highlight in itself. I feel like--
Stuart McLeod 00:43:25.703 Yeah, it certainly is.
Crystal Cooke 00:43:27.574 --I've been very successful in my path, and maybe successful isn't the right word. I guess I could say successful, but it's also been very rewarding. I think if I would do it, I wouldn't change how it happened, and I would continue down the same-- I would do this the exact same way because I've learned so much, but I would kind of stop and enjoy the journey a little bit. I was so set in my head about, "Oh, my gosh, this isn't what I said I was going to do. I'm going this way, that way." And I'm like, "But it's okay." I didn't have to go that set journey and be so rigid about how I was supposed to progress. And if I would just step back and just enjoy the ride and just go wherever life took me, I think it would have been even better. But I think just the everyday successes that I-- the little mini-successes that I have when I talk to someone and they have that aha moment about what DEI is, that's like, "This is why I do this." Or if I talk to a student and they're like, "I'm going to go into accounting. I think this is a great career," that's why I do this. It's all those little moments like that that make me like, "Yes, I did it." Those are the kind of things--
Stuart McLeod 00:44:42.993 Yeah. "I've been successful today." Yeah.
Crystal Cooke 00:44:44.421 Yeah. That makes me feel like, "Okay, yeah, this is where I need to be."
Stuart McLeod 00:44:49.824 Yeah. Now one of the things that-- I did this podcast with a lot of customers, a lot of accountants. And maybe you feel this too, and maybe this is a little bit about what attracted you to the industry, but I don't want to make this rhetorical. But the one thing that constantly comes up when I ask a version of, "Why do you do what you do? Why do you build the firm? What is your firm's purpose? What is your purpose? Why do you enjoy accounting?" the one thing that everybody says, nearly constantly and nearly first every time, is that accountants just love helping people, right? They love that connection that they have with their clients, that a lot become friends. They love seeing their now friend go on a journey from zero to hero or from business to business or from a small shop to big shop or whatever their version of success is, right? They just love being a part of that journey. They love the connection, that the journey binds them together. And they love deploying their skills in a way that has impact. And we all love that. But I think those types of people, if you can-- and by the way, most accountants would make pretty terrible firemen or policemen. And so ultimately, it's a similar type of person, right, "I feel this deep desire to 'give back,'" I mean, in quotes, because they're getting paid for it and all that. But it's a similar-natured person that actually gets strength from that giving process, that helping process, that impact process. And anyway, there you go. You didn't ask my [crosstalk].
Crystal Cooke 00:46:55.384 No, I agree. I agree.
Stuart McLeod 00:46:56.127 But this--
Crystal Cooke 00:46:57.756 I mean, to be honest, as accountants, we're really kind of paid to talk to people, right? We engage with people on a day-to-day basis, at least in my-- and even in this job. I'm not practicing in accounting, but I talk to accountants every single day. And it's a client service business, right? And so you have to be able to engage with people, and you have to like talking to people to be able to do this job. And in my space, I think I agree. I like giving, and I'm giving in the way of education, in the way of helping. And for me, it's about being a part of something bigger than me, being a part of something that can make a long-lasting impact. You used the word impact. I think I want to be able to say that, when I'm looking 20 years-- they say by 2045, the minorities will exceed the majority. I want to be able to look back and say, "I helped with that. I was a part of that. Yes."
Stuart McLeod 00:48:07.823 Yeah. "I got some of those into accounting." [laughter]
Crystal Cooke 00:48:08.713 "I did some of that work. I helped." And that's rewarding. That's purpose, right? And that's not just being up here on this earth just taking up space, so.
Stuart McLeod 00:48:22.344 Yeah, which-- I'm not having a go at other industries or athletes and all that stuff, but there is a purpose in there. There is an impact, and there is something bigger than ourselves in that, and we feel that by building software that enables that and play our tiny little part. And if that helps, then we can look back and be proud.
Crystal Cooke 00:48:47.929 I didn't say this before, but I played basketball in college. And I had a coach. Her name is Laurie Pirtle, and she would always tell us, "Never leave any space the way you got there. Leave it better than the way you-- leave it better than the way it was when you got there." And so that's kind of how I feel about this job. I feel like I want to leave the profession better than I was when I entered it. And so if I can do my part, to help, that's what I'm going to do, and so.
Stuart McLeod 00:49:28.199 Well, the industry should be super proud of your efforts. The membership base should be super thankful for everything that you and the association does. And if there's anything that we can do to help, we would love to participate and promote diversity and inclusion in the industry.
Crystal Cooke 00:49:48.525 Thank you for that, yes.
Stuart McLeod 00:49:48.917 Please. We'd be more than happy to assist in any way that [crosstalk].
Crystal Cooke 00:49:54.340 Great. I'm going to hold you to that.
Stuart McLeod 00:49:56.803 Please do. Please do. Hey, Crystal, this has been super fun. Thank you for--
Crystal Cooke 00:50:00.750 Oh, great. No, thank you for having me.
Stuart McLeod 00:50:02.611 I've learned so much. I really have.
Crystal Cooke 00:50:04.486 Very good.
Stuart McLeod 00:50:05.477 This has been fantastic. Thank you so much.
Crystal Cooke 00:50:08.527 You're welcome. Thank you. It's been fun.
Stuart McLeod 00:50:16.845 [music] Thanks for listening to this episode. If you found this discussion interesting, fun, you'll find lots more to help you run a successful accounting firm at Karbon Magazine. There are more than 1,000 free resources there including guides, articles, templates, webinars, and more. Just head to karbonhq.com/resources. I'd also love it if you could leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to this podcast. Let us know you liked this session. We'll be able to keep bringing you more guests for you to learn from and get inspired by. Thanks for joining, and see you in the next episode of the Accounting Leaders Podcast.