Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Wellness Docket is a podcast for lawyers and legal professionals ready to prioritize their mental health. Through honest conversations with guests from inside and outside the legal world, we explore burnout, balance, and the pressures of practice—creating space for reflection, recovery, and resilience in the profession. This is a space where your wellness is always on the docket.
Tim 0:00
I'm here with Lindsey Mazza. Lindsey is an Ontario based lawyer turned disability and inclusive leadership expert, TEDx speaker who helps individuals and organizations move beyond surface level inclusion to create real, lasting impact. Lindsey specializes in resilient leadership, self advocacy and accessibility. She was born with Holt Forum syndrome, a rare genetic condition that causes limb and heart differences, and spent much of her life hiding her visible disability. So welcome Lindsey to The Wellness Docket, and you and I, first of all, just to kind of set this up a bit when we had a conversation. I think it was October or November of last year, the last time we spoke.
Lindsey 0:46
Yeah.
Tim 0:48
Yeah. And so a lot has happened for you since then, and I want to get into that, but I just want to start so you and I, I'm going to do some leading questions here, just to move it along. You and I, I was in law school at the same time as you were, and I think I was a year ahead of you, so you graduated the year after me. Why don't you tell our audience how you got from kind of a practicing lawyer to what you're doing now and then how does that transition happen?
Lindsey 1:18
Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you for having me. I'm so excited for us to chat again. Yeah, so I quite honestly, went into the legal profession because I lived my whole life as my own advocate, and I assumed that law would be the path of least resistance for me in terms of using my natural advocacy skills. I thought that the profession that's built on justice and equality would be one that was inclusive, and so I decided to go into law, and it, you know, turned out that the profession is quite honestly, the opposite of those things. I was denied accommodations to even write my LSAT exams, and then the profession is full of barriers. And I remember, I remember the day that I was called to the bar being full of dread. I had this knowing internally, that this was not what I was meant to do for the rest of my life. But I did the thing like everybody else you know, I finished school, paid all the money for school, so I thought I was stuck on this path. And as you mentioned, I lived my whole life without even talking about my disability. And my dad, who had the same disability and was a superior court judge, got sick during covid, and when he got sick, you know, my mental health started to decline, and so did my physical health. And when he died in October of 2023 that's when I realized that I had to pivot, and I had to shift careers and my focus and use my advocacy skills differently than I had before. But in order to do that, I had to start talking about my disability, my life experience and that was how I knew I could carry on my dad's legacy. And that's when the transition happened for me.
Tim 3:14
Right, and tell me a little bit about prior to making that decision, kind of in 2023 what kind of things were you noticing experiencing about the practice of law that that you knew wasn't for you, because I think a lot of the people that I'll talk to on this podcast are going to be practicing lawyers or people in the profession, but I think you've got a very unique role outside of the profession now, and can speak to kind of, some of the things that that you saw that just didn't suit you anymore.
Lindsey 3:50
Yeah, so I think, you know, I don't think the profession lends itself to a human experience. I think it is very formulaic. It's very curated. And if you don't fit within the idea of what a lawyer should be, it's really hard to succeed. And when I say succeed, you can do well financially, but it's at the detriment of your well being. I think that we do not prioritize health, mental, physical, emotional health within the profession. And I think that that comes down to the fact that the people at the top making decisions are making them from a very privileged perspective. It comes down to the billable hour, and there are no accommodations or considerations made for a starting point, where people begin their career, right? So there's no there's no allowance for life and the different challenges and experiences that people bring to the table, and there's this fear around talking about the difficulties, because it's not, it's like, lawyers can, we can talk all day long about how it's a community, but that is not the honest experience. I think it's a community from a facade perspective, but we are not the profession on the whole, it does not help raise each other up. I think that it is a very isolating experience. One of the more recent stats, and I don't know if this was Ontario or Canada, but it was something like 3% of lawyers even declare that they have a disability, and there's no way that that's an accurate stat. There's even this fear around admitting what a perceived weakness is, because we don't help each other, you know, like we tear each other down, and I say that we, I'm using the royal we. It's certainly not how I moved through the world, but it's what I experienced, and I could never understand it, and it was really highlighted to me when, after my dad passed away, and people who we were both part of the same legal community in Hamilton, and people who were sending condolences and flowers and who were at his funeral, when I was back in the office two weeks later, were criticizing me for being behind on files. It's like you we just like, you know what's happened in my life and that was a real moment for me. It's something that I had experienced throughout but that was a real, crucial moment of this is not how I operate. It's not how I want to be treated. And the way that I can shift and make a change is not going to happen within this container, so I need to do it differently.
Tim 6:55
So tell me a little bit about when you first kind of left the practice in 2023 kind of where you were at that point in your journey?
Lindsey 7:07
So I didn't actually leave until September last year. So shortly before you and I spoke. October of 2023 when my dad passed, I went back to work. Found it really difficult, you know, for anybody who's experienced loss, grief, the brain is a real thing, and the world expects us to go back and operate at the same level and you really just can't. Life forever changes, and your perspective changes. And by January of 2024 my mental health had declined to such a point where I would lay in bed in the mornings and think I'd rather be dead than to go to work. And I had, and I had normalized those thoughts, you know, I was speaking to colleagues, and they would say, Yeah, me too. And I thought, we should not be normalizing this. This is not how I want to live, and that was a real rock bottom moment for me, and I knew that I just couldn't continue that path. So I had to really start taking care of me and figuring out what I needed to do, and that required a lot of self reflection, internal work, working with the right people, and that's what led me to the decision of I need to walk away from this, because I'm not able to use my voice in a way that's going to really make a change and leave impact. So with the greatest appreciation for everything that my legal career taught me in the traditional sense, those skills are obviously transferable, and then shifting how I can show up in the work that I can do. And that happened, like I said, in the fall of last year, and then it's been a rapid, momentous, I don't even know what you would say, career change. I've gone in a bunch of directions that I never thought I would go in. And that's kind of, I believe that that's what happens when you really decide to step into what you believe your purpose is.
Tim 9:13
Yeah, for sure. And so when you were making that kind of decision at this low point, were you receiving any feedback? You know that we're telling you kind of, like, this crazy Why are you considering doing this? Like, how can, how could you leave this great profession, things like that.
Lindsey 9:31
People still say that to me. People still say I just don't understand you spent all that time and money and energy getting your law degree and like, How can you leave that behind? And of course, I got that pushback. But, you know, it's not an overstatement for me to say that my life depended on me making a change. I was not well, and what's so crazy is, you know, I had weight that I couldn't lose, and my health wasn't well. I had chronic migraines, chronic pain and I was on anxiety or antidepressants, and they weren't doing anything. And what's crazy is when I shifted and I just started to take care of myself, all of that went away, like weight just fell off my body, my migraines went away, my chronic pain went away. I was exercising because moving my body felt good, not because I felt like I had to, and I had the energy to do it. And it really highlighted to me that, like my nervous system was just so out of whack. I was in constant fight or flight, and I wasn't well, and I think so many people experience that, and they can't see their way out. So for me, it was, this is the only way forward, because I'm not living. I don't remember, I don't remember experiencing joy for a really long time, like true joy, like I always felt too tired to even do social events. Like, I remember being like, Oh, I gotta go for dinner with my friends. I just can't wait to get into bed, right? And that's how, that's how every day went. It was like living for the weekends. I'm too tired to do anything and now it's like, every day is full of joyful moments.
Tim 11:27
And am I wrong in saying and maybe you can disagree with me on this, but to me, it's not the practice itself that creates those situations. It's kind of the culture that surrounds the practice, and some of the behavior within the practice that we condone, because it's been this way for so many years. Would you agree with me? Because, when I think about the things that you're saying, there's some really rewarding things, and yes, it's tough, and yes, there's stressful parts of it. But then when I really peel back on it, and I think about, okay, the things that I really like about it, it really is more of the culture behind it, more than than, than the actual work,
Lindsey 12:11
Totally and like, I didn't dislike the work. I stayed in it for as long as I did, because I did it for clients. Like, I met wonderful people along the way, and I was good at my job. I enjoyed being in the courtroom. But it was the, it was the culture that you're forced to exist within, right? It's the normalizing of survival of the fittest, and it's in a really toxic way, right? It's, it's going into a courtroom when you're just trying to do your best for your client, and a judge is in a bad mood, and they tear a strip off of you and attack you, and then you're supposed to just, you know, let it roll off your back and keep going. Or you have another lawyer who attacks your character as a strategy on a file, or your own client who you stayed up late at night to prep for their trial, lays into you and blames you for the trial not going well, when they're the one that took the witness stand and didn't do well, you know? So it's very thankless. It's very thankless, and there are very few allies, and there's, and it's absolutely the normal culture. And I think that at the root of all of it is that people are really miserable, and nobody's addressing that issue, because miserable people pay that forward, right? And, and when you're existing under that umbrella, nobody's checking you right? So it just becomes a way of existing.
Tim 13:51
Yeah, and not to go too down a rabbit hole on this, because there are a lot of things I want to get to here, but I think you're absolutely right on that. And I don't know when it really started happening. Maybe it was, like, aligned with, you know, political things going on, or covid and things like that. Like you could, you could actually feel people getting more miserable at one point in time or another. And that's really unfortunate, because I think that, as professionals, you're, you're at the core of that all the time, right? Like, you're kind of getting it from every which way.
Lindsey 14:25
I think you're right. I think that it wasn't great before covid. And I think covid provided an environment where people's behaviors could worsen, because we weren't in person anymore, right? So that you can hide behind a screen. Like, I remember at some point in covid, something I normally did is I would always have an initial call on files to, you know, to introduce myself to the lawyer on the other side, to say, how can we work together? And at some point along the way, people stopped agreeing to those phone calls, and they would say things like, I don't, I won't talk to you on the phone, you know, put something in writing. And I thought, when did the lack of collegiality exit the room? To be that angry to approach a file like this? It's like we're on the same side here. There are two ways that we can do this. We can work together to bring this to a rapid resolution for our clients, or you can create this situation where we're now pitted against each other, and now these people are going to spend 10s of 1000s of dollars. And I just found that people became less and less resolution oriented, and it became easier for them to do it, because the courts were backlogged, and there wasn't an in person accountability anymore.
Tim 15:44
You know, that's definitely fair, I saw a lot more of that during especially the covid period as well. Tell me a little bit about what you've I mean, this is a really open question here, but tell me about your journey after the law and kind of what you've been doing, because it's been, from my perspective, just kind of sitting back as a fly on the wall, it's been pretty amazing to watch, right? There's been times when I just kind of want to go on social media and be like, yes, you go, right. Like, good for you that you know you're doing this.
Lindsey 16:20
Yeah, thank you. Yeah. So things happened pretty quickly. I mean, look, when I decided to step away in October, the only thing that I had in mind was I wanted to do a TED talk, and I wanted to be able to do speaking and consulting. I had no vision of how I would get there, what that would look like. But, you know, I launched my new website. I think it was September 18 of last year. I went to an event at the beginning of October, and by the beginning of October, I had a book deal. I had never said, like I had never thought, yeah, I've got a book in me, probably, but it wasn't something I set out to do. But I met a publisher, and now she and I are doing the collaboration book together, Hiding in Plain Sight, which you're going to be a part of. Am I allowed to say that?
Tim 17:17
Oh, yeah, sure. I just, I have no idea what I'm going to talk about yet, but yeah, go ahead.
Lindsey 17:21
So that's become a thing, you know. And then the TED Talk happened really quite seamlessly, and then I was able to meet. I did an interview at the beginning of March and the lady who interviewed me, Kate connected, she was so she's been in journalism for a long time, and she really understood the importance of my messaging. So then I ended up with my own segment, Hiding in Plain Sight on there, like I would have never listened, like when hiding in plain sight, like the real thing, like I was absolutely hiding. The thought of being on TV was petrifying to me and the week leading up to my first TV interview I was ready to go back in my shell, like I can't be on TV. But I think that the message here is for anybody listening that, you know, it's never easy to take those steps towards what you know your purpose is, and I know we hear that all the time, but I knew that my purpose was to use my voice to make change. And I didn't know the how and the when. But every time I took a step consistent with that goal, opportunities presented themselves. And also your ego and your limiting beliefs are going to get louder the closer you get to those goals. So people really need to understand that, and I was petrified. I was like, What am I doing going on TV? And I I did it anyways, and I keep doing it anyways, and every time I do it anyways, bigger opportunities present themselves and, you know, I've been on national news. I was on CTV your morning for a second time yesterday, and they want me to come back as a regular contributor, and be on global and CBC. And it's like it's wild to me, like I never thought this, and I and I'm living in it, and still in disbelief of living in it. And I've met the most amazing people on this journey. And it's wild how the universe just places the people that are supposed to be placed in your path and and it's because, like, I continue to do it anyways, and I'm doing it for the greater good of service to a group of a demographic of people that are underrepresented. And I think when you operate from a perspective of what, not, what can I get out of this? But how can I move the needle and be in service to other people, then that's when you know the magic happens, and the opportunities come your way.
Tim 20:08
And everything just kind of aligns for you and you can't believe that it's, it's working out that way.
Lindsey 20:14
And you can't plan it either, and you have to be comfortable with not knowing. And it is really uncomfortable not knowing, right? It's really uncomfortable to be like, I'm gonna take a step, one at a time, and trust that the next step will be presented to me.
Tim 20:31
So it's funny, because you're talking about these things, and I'm sure there are people you know, whoever is going to be listening to this someday is thinking about an idea, and as you're talking about this stuff like that is the exact purpose of why I'm doing this podcast and some other projects. And I kind of started off looking for some funding. A couple things fell through with that, and I was like, well, screw it. I'm just going to start something. I don't really know how I'm going to do it. I have some tools. So one person connected me with another, and then another, and then you start seeing, like, a little bit of like, light at the end of the tunnel. So it's interesting, because I had a couple people reach out to me, like, Hey, I've been actually paying attention to what you're doing, and I'd like to talk about this. And like, that's amazing, like, and it's comes from people you'd never think, you know, would open up about these kinds of things, and I think that just comes with the focus of really wanting to do something right for the your surroundings and for the people around you, rather than just benefiting yourself, right?
Lindsey 21:35
Totally and what you're doing, you know, it's in the same vein. It's, I want to have an I want to provide a platform to have honest conversations, because I know I'm not alone, and not everybody has the courage, you know, to do this, but the beauty in it is, through your courage to do it, other people will come to the table and then, and then We're having one honest conversation after the next, and then suddenly people have a community and they're not feeling isolated. And you know, it's the honesty that shifts how you know it. Hopefully it will shift the profession, but we need to rally together to do that. And I think the profession lends itself to feeling isolated so important that you're doing this.
Tim 22:27
Thanks, and you have a unique perspective on that, because now you're kind of from the outside looking in. So you can say, Listen, like I left the profession, and here's why, right? And you're not alone in that. I hear from colleagues all the time, younger lawyers who kind of get in, spend a year and just say, Listen, if this is what it's like, I'm out right. And that's really sad.
Lindsey 22:51
It is sad. And you know what? And I like at the risk of being controversial, but you know, not being controversial doesn't really get us anywhere. The decision makers within the legal profession don't actually care. I have been all over national news talking about the lack of accessibility and inclusivity. I've reached out to the Canadian Bar Association. I have reached out to the Judicial Council. I have put multiple leads out to say, have me come in and help shift this. I was on the committee at the Hamilton courthouse for the lack of accessibility within the building, and there was supposed to be an assessment done, and it was supposed to change, nothing ever happened. So the truth is that there actually isn't a desire to change, and I'm happy to keep talking about it, because maybe we need to keep embarrassing the decision makers. Because I think it's actually reprehensible that nobody cares enough to even respond to an email. I think it's reprehensible that we are accommodating the judges at the courthouse, because I know that they did that because my dad was accommodated, and they physically changed parts of the building on the back end, but that the general public can't access the courthouse in the same way. I think it's unacceptable. And, you know, people should be embarrassed, and they need to start making a change. And if they can't even respond to an email, there's a lack of desire to even change. And if that's what's happening at the top, we're certainly not going to change on the whole as a profession.
Tim 24:40
Wow. I just wanted to say, Okay, any professionals listening? Did you hear that, right? Because it's, you know, I know I would push back a little bit and say that I do see some incremental changes. And I do, you know, people are definitely talking more. I don't know how much walking they're doing, but by appearances, it seems like things are getting better. And there's, there's, there's a desire to make the practice better. But then, for every story that I see that we're, you know, the positive ones, there's also some other ones where, you know, people are looking for accessibility, looking for accommodations, and aren't getting them, you know, and those stories are pretty difficult to describe and to understand when you know, as you said, you're entering a profession where you know, we talk, we analyze laws that talk about accessibility and those kind of things. So how can we turn around and say that we're not going to uphold those very laws and constitutions and principles that promote those things?
Lindsey 25:47
And to be clear, I'm in Ontario, and you're in New Brunswick, so provincially, things are legislated differently so and but also I will say there are incremental changes when it comes to the mental health and burnout discussion, but my point is, people with physical disabilities continue to be ignored, and I have not seen incremental changes when it comes to that. And it's because disabilities are not just like this, there are different disabilities. It's not just one category, right? So it is. So that's where my conversation comes in, is if we're going to create true inclusion, then we need to talk about all of the variabilities and all of the issues and struggles that people have. And that's where I have not seen a change, because I think where corporations and governments are concerned is they're following these dei frameworks, or EDI, as we call it, in Canada, where we're ticking boxes and focusing on the diversity and we're focusing on the trendy, more trendy issues like wellness and burnout, but we're not looking at everything, and that's, that's where I'm saying. It's, you know, it's disappointing and I can't sit here and pretend that I saw changes as somebody with a lived experience, because I didn't, and I didn't leave the practice that long ago, but I will say that when it came to the mental health discussion and the burnout, that became more of a normal conversation, and there was less shame. There was an effort to take away the shame around those conversations.
Tim 26:48
Boy, it's hard to think about how anyone on one hand could accept the wellness discussion and the mental health part, but not the physical side of things, right? Like it, just it. That doesn't make sense to me. So I guess you know, any chance that we get to advocate on those things, and I'm happy to promote that for you, because I think it's important, right, like I can't, and there's such a good business case for those kind of accommodations, because otherwise, especially in the legal profession, not only is it just the Human Rights side of things and the altruistic reasons, but also because we're losing really bright people, right? If you're doing that, you're saying that we're not willing to do that, and we're going to lose people in the profession, and that takes away from all the lessons we get to learn from having all of those different experiences around us, right? Like I learned from everybody that I interact with, and in a lot of ways, that makes me better at my job and better at what I do. And I hope that the profession comes around on that piece as well.
Lindsey 28:52
Yeah, and it's also about providing equitable opportunities. So, like, part of the reason there's this lack of effort around disability is because, you know, even entering the profession, there are barriers. Like I explained, writing like I was denied the accommodation to write my LSAT, people aren't even able to get through the door. And, and this is the other part that I think is wrong with the profession, there are no different parts of it that exist in silos, right? So the LSAT center is administered by, well, it was at the time somewhere in the States, right? So it's administered through that avenue, and then that is creating the barrier for Canadian applicants.
Tim 29:40
I think it's actually, if you could believe this, it's administered by LSUC,
Lindsey 29:48
Oh, really?
Tim 29:49
I don't know. Maybe my memory seems to tell me that it is.
Lindsey 29:52
It used to be like the LSUC was the acronym for Law Society of Upper Canada.
Tim 29:57
Okay, but there was something similar to that, maybe I'm getting them confused.
Lindsey 30:03
The LSAT, like it was somewhere in the states that I had to appeal that process from, and it's made me think, you know, that's part of the issue is there's no the lines of communication operate in silos, right? And then we're creating all of these different barriers. So it's not even like all of the law schools have a category to apply, like New Brunswick did and and I applied under that category for people with disabilities, because that is their acknowledgement of it's been, it's been a more challenging road, and we want to create equal opportunity. But I think there were only three law schools in Canada that even had that category. So it's not like there's standardization across the board, and every time there's different policies, there's an additional barrier, and then we're not even getting people within the profession that have disabilities, so then we're talking about a very small minority of people that require the accommodations, and then we're just on this, this cycle, right? That's what happens.
Tim 31:07
So just to kind of, you know, wrap up soon, looking back on your time in the profession, and this, this might be a loaded question, and maybe it can't be answered in one easy question. But if there was one thing that you could change about the profession, and specifically, like, you know, the wellness and mental health aspect of the profession, what? What might that be?
Lindsey 31:36
There needs to not be a separation between people and members within the profession. So I think it's about judges and lawyers and policy makers operating as though we're all in the same team towards a common goal, instead of there being this lack of connection and lack of ability to all sit at the same table, right? So, one of you know, one of the issues that I just as an example, you know, during covid, the world became way more accessible for me, certainly, but for many people, because courts became virtual attendances, and it was great. It saved clients money, made my life easier. But then as the world started to open up again, the judges really insisted on in person, everybody going back to the way it was, and you had to apply for an accommodation to each courthouse. There was no standardization. And you know what that does is it shifts the onus on, once again, on, on somebody with a disability constantly, at every, every time you have to go to court apply, right? So it's an additional administrative step, and I would get approval sometimes and sometimes I wouldn't. And it was just like, that is such a simple thing, but nobody thinks about it. And there is no head person that you can go to to say you need to do this across the board. There needs to be across the board communication. I shouldn't need to be explaining and providing medical notes every time that I apply. So that's, that's the part that I think continues to create this culture that we exist in, is, you know, there's no, we're not sharing stories. We're not telling each other about our experiences, and then we're feeling isolated, and then we're afraid to talk about our experiences. That can be perceived as weaknesses, right?
Tim 33:52
Yeah, no, I think that's a really smart, insightful comment. I've often thought that there is such a I mean, I understand the reasoning of it, and you would have a very unique perspective, because your father was a judge, but there was a time when kind of judges and lawyers were a little bit more collegial, right? You could be because there wasn't that concern as much, that there may be an apparent bias, or there might be, you know, an unfairness question there. But I think we've gone, in some ways, a little bit too far to the other side of things, where sometimes you, you know, you can't even be human right, like you can't have those conversations to be, and it kind of gets back to your comment early on about kind of walking into court, and, you know, depending on if a judge has a bad day, or what, what, what the situation is. And you know, maybe your argument isn't the best argument, but sometimes you play the hand you're dealt, right and, and I'm sure most judges should know, like, you know you're there, and you're representing your clients to the best of your ability. And you may have even gone back and said, Listen, like, I think this might not be the best argument, but they say, No, I want you to do it. And you say, Okay, I'm gonna present this argument. And then you get in front of the judge, and the judge doesn't like that argument, and kind of go, okay, so I think you're right that there is that disconnect between members of the profession where you really can't get even sometimes behind thinking on things other than if you're at like a CLE and you happen to be lucky enough to hear, like a judge's candid thoughts on something when it's very scripted and whatever. But I think there's learning opportunities for everybody in the profession when we're able to have those conversations more openly, and that, yeah, no, that makes sense to me, and certainly for your perspective, what would be the difficulty of calling and saying, listen, like, is it okay if we do this by phone instead of having to go through this application process, and I've got to file a document and sign something and put it in there and, tick a box of the reason, or whatever the application process is that just creates an undue hardship, in my opinion.
Lindsey 36:10
Yeah, or like, or have training so that people can be more insightful. Like it's not like my disability is invisible, like I need to explain to you and provide a doctor's note as to why I should continue to appear virtually, instead of lugging boxes to and from court to run a trial. Like I shouldn't have to explain myself. I should, you know, there should be a mechanism for, like, human empathy and training around that, but we're not, this is why I'm saying, and this is why I'm frustrated, is there's not even interest in doing that based on my efforts, right? Because people are so stuck in their way of doing things, and it's very and this is, again, this is why I'm saying it's very privileged, right? It's very privileged for a white judge who earns a lot of money, who doesn't have a disability, to be sitting at the table saying this is what I want, because this is the way it's been done and I have no ability to have that conversation. And I think that the fact that that is the starting point for where these rules are made is, is the root of the problem is we're even approaching it from that way, without even having, without even turning our minds to how everybody is impacted, right, and not being proactive about having those conversations. And that's where my frustration comes in, because all judges were once lawyers. So, how the appointment of a judge creates this level of separation between these members within the profession, is mind boggling to me, and I think that there needs to be some unified effort.
Tim 38:10
So what's next for you? What are you going to be up to over the next several months?
Lindsey 38:16
Yeah, so you know, consulting and speaking. And, you know, I just did a spokesperson and partnered with a company to do spokesperson as on the media outlet. So, you know, I'm looking to partner with people who are really interested in creating this change. And, you know, doing corporate workshops and all of those things. So, you know, I'd love it if people could get in touch, because I think that, you know, my message is that, yes, disability is part of the consideration, but at the root of it, it's like, let's create true inclusion where there aren't barriers for anybody. And in order to do that, we need to include all of the people at the table, and especially those with lived experience, or else we're not truly considering everybody.
Tim 39:10
Yeah, that rings true to me a little bit with the, you know, the mental health aspect of it is sometimes, you know, I don't know that there's enough lived experience at the table when we have people analyzing these problems and writing reports and whatnot, you know? But that's for another day. So I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me today. I'll put some links up to your website on the page once this goes live, and we'll certainly look forward to seeing what you do in the future.
Lindsey 39:49
Thanks, Tim.