The Secret Life of TK Dutes

In this God quest (not-so-mini) bonus episode of The Secret Life of TK Dutes, TK pulls up to artist Élan Cadiz’s Harlem studio for a loose, unfiltered conversation about art, family, and what it means to embody an object.

What starts as curiosity- sparked by episode 2 with Nicole Crowder, has TK following the thread to deeper reflection on comfort, lineage, and the expectation of being used as a tool.

Élan breaks down her project An American Family Album, where family members are rendered as chairs- revealing how we see ourselves and what we carry. TK shares why following the “God quest,” even without a plan, has become essential to her healing from burnout.

Pull up a chair it's time for art therapy.

Follow Élan Cadiz: https://www.instagram.com/elancadiz
Learn more about An American Family Album: https://www.elancadiz.com/an-american-family-album
Read the Vogue feature: https://www.vogue.com/article/artist-turning-family-into-chairs

📚 Élan's Library 📚  
Rest Is Resistance: A Manifesto
Author: Tricia Hersey
Link: https://thenapministry.com/rest-is-resistance
 
Killing the Black Body: Race, Reproduction, and the Meaning of Liberty
Author: Dorothy Roberts
Link: https://thenewpress.com/books/killing-black-body

The Prophet
Author: Kahlil Gibran
Link: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/317488/the-prophet-by-kahlil-gibran/
 
How I Became a Ghost
Author: Tim Tingle
Link: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/228584/how-i-became-a-ghost-by-tim-tingle/

Sister Outsider: Essays and Speeches
Author: Audre Lorde
Link: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/193060/sister-outsider-by-audre-lorde/


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Special thanks to Amy of Velma Jean Flowers for calling the Secret Life Lifeline and for lifting up Sara Ahmed’s Living a Feminist Life this episode. Your reflection helped shape this conversation.

📞 You can call or text The Secret Life Line like Amy did at (929) 551-4363, or leave a voice note at philosfuturemedia@gmail.com.

⭐ If you want to help us become an award-winning podcast, rate + review the show wherever you listen and consider becoming a Patreon member at
👉🏾 https://www.patreon.com/SecretLifeofTK
Your support helps us enter award categories so they can put some respect on our names.

This bonus episode was produced by Tre’ Jones
Hosted and Executive Produced by Keisha TK Dutes of Philo's Future Media
Post-production audio by Manny Faces.

Next time we meet, we take a moment for grief in Episode 3 — coming soon.

TK Podcast Reccs:
The Almanac of Rap hosted by DonWill!
If you love art, history, NYC, and Hip Hop- check out the "Graffiti Rock with Micheal Holman" about  the early days of hip-hop culture and the movement that brought its four elements to a national audience for the first time.
★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Creators and Guests

Host
Keisha "TK" Dutes
Host/ Executive Producer
Editor
Manny Faces
Post Production Lead
Producer
Tre' Jones
Producer, Episode 2

What is The Secret Life of TK Dutes?

The Secret Life of TK Dutes is the story of what it means to become when the system won’t let you be. One woman sets out into the world, looking for ways to get ahead as an Artist. Producer. Daughter, Sister. Partner.

Together with those who bear witness, TK throws away the scripts and looks for answers, in airports, dentists offices, across borders.

Each episode is a new world, pioneering the art of loose autobiography to build the picture of a life in a community of voices.

What happens when you stop doing what is expected of you and start doing YOU?

A better life can be a hustle. It doesn’t have to be a secret.

Speaker 1:

135th Street, Max. Stay in clear of closing doors. It's a cold but beautifully snowy day in January. And I find myself on the New York City subway. Where am I going, you might be wondering?

Speaker 1:

Hey, y'all. I am in Harlem World, USA. Your girl TK is in the building. I'm going to my friend Elan's studio. She's an artist and a dope creative person and I had to talk to her about these chairs.

Speaker 1:

Oh, it's beautiful out. Look at this. I'm on a side quest. After I told Nicole Crowder in Minneapolis about my friend Ilan, the artist that she should check out, I was like, let me go check on Ilan myself. Let's call her.

Speaker 2:

Hey.

Speaker 1:

Hey, sis. I'm downstairs. I didn't know which bell.

Speaker 2:

Oh, three a.

Speaker 1:

Three a. Alright. I'm buzzing. Alright. Going up.

Speaker 1:

And I wanted y'all to meet her too. So Three. Today's mission, a low key studio visit so I can see about Elan's chairs project. Do you want me to take anything out? Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Maybe like two or three something. Or I could take pictures or

Speaker 2:

I could just

Speaker 1:

You're take a about to see the secrets. While

Speaker 2:

we talk. The secrets is this is where I hide all my shit. Okay. The teaching shit, art shit, all that shit. I'm Elan Cadiz.

Speaker 2:

I'm an interdisciplinary visual artist and I'm a mother. I'm a brown woman, I'm a black woman, I am God's creation, I am an educator, I am a lover of life and yeah, I don't know how else to express myself other than say I'm thankful to be alive And it took me time to understand why I was thankful, be alive. But I am. And that's it. Oh, you so much.

Speaker 1:

Welcome back to The Secret Life of TK Jutess. My life in real time healing from burnout with the help of friends, art, and adventure. If you heard episode two, an invitation to sit featuring Nicole Crowder, we talked about the right to sit, making home, and her love of her craft, making modern heirlooms by upholstering chairs. I even traveled all the way to Minneapolis to take her class. And since our conversation, it got me thinking about my friend Elan and her art practice.

Speaker 1:

So I went to her studio, was packed beautiful things from different art projects in process to African statues sitting right next to a few baby Yodas, piles of material, and so much more. The whole space was an altar to Elon's dedication to art, life, culture, and creativity. Your space is so joyful. Thank you. Elon's energy has always been youthful, constantly in motion, filled with genuine curiosity, and an excitement to show and tell.

Speaker 1:

And I was excited to see and listen, child. As a furniture lover, I was intrigued by one of her projects where she depicted her family, each person as a different chair on canvas. And I watched her develop this project via social media but they were also featured in a little magazine called Vogue in 2019. So I had to come to the source and learn more about chairs as family, as tools, and what it means to be a chair or be given a chair. Consider this an extension of episode two where family history wraps itself into the fabric of family present, a bonus conversation where an inanimate object can remind us of the star stuff that we are made of.

Speaker 1:

I saw my friend on Instagram or she's my friend now, I'm claiming her. Nicole Crowder, saw her on Instagram, she's a wonderful black lady interior designer, like dope, and she does chairs. That's her whole jam, the upholstery. Right? So then I talked to her and I started telling her about you.

Speaker 2:

Oh, nice.

Speaker 1:

And I said, I know who does chair stuff. And I said, gotta talk to Ilan. So both of y'all sparked an excitement in me that I felt like I needed to follow. So this is me following the thing. Just said I'm let me go talk to on oh, what is it?

Speaker 1:

A God quest. Wow, what's a God quest?

Speaker 2:

It was like when I got that idea to do this and I had no reason why. Yeah. You know, and I invested time and energy buying the TV.

Speaker 1:

And you like, you ain't even know why

Speaker 2:

you just I don't know why and I didn't even think about how it will be exhibited. I didn't think about none of that. Yeah. It was just about just do it, Elon, because it's something to be done.

Speaker 1:

That's what I'm on. Like, I don't even you know, like, in my mind, I think I know what I'm doing with this audio. Yeah. But what it's gonna be something you know how like Yeah. The end product is never the first idea.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So we just jam it right

Speaker 2:

now. Jam it. That's right. We just jam And then it it becomes whatever it needs to. I'm gonna get my ladder real quick.

Speaker 1:

Yes. Yo. This was a line all through the interview, child. Always doing something yet still somehow fully engaged. I realized in this moment, I am fully in Elan's world now.

Speaker 1:

We just chilling.

Speaker 2:

No. It's very true. And then when you do it for the fun of it is that's all it needs to be. Everything else is bullshit, They act like we need to be stressed. No.

Speaker 2:

It's not necessary.

Speaker 1:

So can I ask you questions while

Speaker 2:

you Oh hell yeah, move yeah? I'm good at multitasking.

Speaker 1:

Mean, first, like for the people that don't know, how did you get to this art thing? How did you Yeah. Did you grow up in it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, pretty much the game chose me. I had some hippie ass parents. My mom is a writer, poet, and an educator, and my dad, he he was a artist. Oh my God, look, I had another one. Check that

Speaker 1:

out. Wow.

Speaker 2:

That's so funny. Wow. So, I was always exposed to the material. Okay. And that was an advantage because then if you're fond of these things that you could just do whatever you want that's pretty much what I had, I had free rein to just play with a lot of different things like paint and clay and pencils and crayons and that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2:

So, you know, building things and adventure time. Well, that's me just Everything breaking something, it's all can be fixed. All that stuff was what I had time to do. And that's what I would do. I didn't have a lot of friends, in and out, yes, sometimes.

Speaker 2:

But mostly it was just my work and my imagination and playing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so that's where the start came. Then my dad, he is a art educator.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And my mother has her PhD in child development and education. So that mixture of stuff then introduced me to teaching. Right. And then I become their assistants.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, in the classroom and stuff. So I taught with them, well, help pass things out and stuff, but you know, it's hard not to learn when you're in those spaces. Okay.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, like you got a early start.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like three or four, I started doing drawing and stuff because they, you know, just had access, nothing fancy, just had the access and was able to scribble it out until things I'm glad you didn't get hit with that ruler.

Speaker 1:

It's a real adventure here, yo.

Speaker 2:

Oh It's my a

Speaker 1:

real adventure.

Speaker 2:

I have. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1:

So many things. We could even get into what I came to talk to Alana about, her chair art. The beautifully adorned two d works that mix patterns and fabrics and shapes. We talked about so much more. And if we kept everything in this bonus episode, we'd be here for three hours because Alon just draws you in, yo.

Speaker 2:

No. So when I built that sukkah, I you know, I built a sukkah?

Speaker 1:

I did not know that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I built a sukkah. Are you serious? Yeah. That's a helmet mask on the Sunday side.

Speaker 1:

So this is

Speaker 2:

This is my figurative cup. So those dolls are from Ghana.

Speaker 1:

And what about this head with the flowers in? Oh, so this is Benin. Oh, this one

Speaker 2:

is Oh, yes. That's Dana Robinson. Look, I remember her name. Dana's awesome, though. And what's that?

Speaker 2:

Now I gotta look up the name again. I'm so terrible. Well, that's why I bought the book because the book helps me remember everything. That word. Feast ladle.

Speaker 2:

So this was a ladle they would give to women in the community that did, I don't know what I just kicked on

Speaker 1:

the door. And you have to show me you have one.

Speaker 2:

I have one. Oh found gosh. I came to Elan's house for it. My gosh.

Speaker 1:

I knew I was

Speaker 2:

coming I'm for so the worst. But yeah, that's why do Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1:

This woman truly contains multitudes. I almost got whiplash watching her flip all over the place. But we had ourselves an amazing time. And eventually, we got things back on track. So we came in here and we started talking about your art in your home, the African art and all

Speaker 2:

the pieces. Oh, I have a lot of pieces I bought during COVID as well because one, was getting unemployment, thank you God. Thank you New York State, thank you everybody who was

Speaker 1:

New in York charge of State, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yes, everybody who's in charge of giving me money. And I was haggling with quite a few Cengeleese salesmen. So yeah, I just bought up a lot of stuff.

Speaker 1:

So in your art, and especially in the chairs, cause the chairs are like, they're based on family like.

Speaker 2:

Oh yes. Okay, so I did the chairs during my time at SVA. I think it was my near the end of my first year. Oh no, the end of the last.

Speaker 1:

Right. But

Speaker 2:

During the end, it was during the time they were taking statues down. Because people were tired of having oppressors have statues. Yeah. And then having that kickback with people, where are gonna take these statues and oh my god, it's been here so long and all that kinds of stuff. So I, in my mind, I'm like thinking, so are you okay with the fact that these people owned other people like property?

Speaker 2:

Right. So then is, then me challenging myself, well then doesn't that make me relate it to objects? And because I enjoy chairs and I feel like chairs have such interesting anthropomorphic qualities that connect to us, it has a back, it has the legs, it has arms, and is made specifically for our so called comfort, although that's also questionable because some chairs are not very good for your back, body and what have you. But I chose chairs and that became a conversation with my parents and my children and my other family members. If I turned you into a chair, what chair would you want to be?

Speaker 1:

How do you like, would this be considered a type of collage, like this kind of work putting different things together?

Speaker 2:

So this would be considered fabric arts because it's not quilting. This is definitely not a quilting situation, but it is a collaging of fabrics, yes. And it has its own realm that exists in.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because it is very different than quilters or traditional, I guess sewers, traditional sewers, like this is all hand sewn. Yeah. And you can see the imperfections of that because I had stretched it and then started sewing onto it, which was very difficult, not the wisest way to do that. And then these areas, these stiffer areas are felt that's painted. Not everything is even secured to the fabric.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but that's the fun I'm going to play with too. But yeah, this is like fabric arts fabrications.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And that that kind of thing.

Speaker 1:

That's dope.

Speaker 2:

And it's still two dimensional even though it comes off the bed. Just Yeah. Just enough. But it's not in the round, it's not sculptural. So I sent them pictures and a file of all these chairs.

Speaker 2:

And it was just interesting. I learned a lot about my family, like this chair in particular was designed, this is my cousin Retta.

Speaker 1:

Retta is what kind of chair

Speaker 2:

is So she chose a very comfy like recliner chair, but one that's elegant and that it's not noticeably a recliner. Mhmm. It's also the colors are very specific. Her big thing, other than the chair being comfy, was that blue and green, and that was based on a jazz song, Miles Davis or someone, but there's a song Blue and Green or Green and Blue.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And she was just like, that's very important to me. So, and that was learning a lot about my cousin because one, I didn't know she listened to jazz music, two, you know, I've never asked her about colors she liked or these types of things. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So, I got to learn about her. You did cousin Rhetta right, Yeah. You know, this is

Speaker 2:

You know, in thinking about who she is in our family, she is such a stable person, like a lot of people depend on her.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And she helps them without complaint, I know she'll have, she'll realize sometimes but I tell you I've never seen someone smile so easily. Even through like headache stuff like, and so, like the blue made sense like she keeps it calm through the Yes. And she's stable and she's soft. She is so so you can go and she's squishy good.

Speaker 1:

So when someone picks a not so comfy chair, does that correlate? Are you like, oh, I see it. Like, does that correlate?

Speaker 2:

Well, that's so good you said that because actually, so what was interesting, I chose a chair for my mother because she took so long. I was like, mom, why are you taking so long? And she said, I'll look at that, look at it, but so I chose a chair. And when she saw it, she said, oh, that's nice. And what it was funny I was like, the way she said I know that's her way of saying that's you did wrong, why did you choose that chair?

Speaker 2:

And I was thinking of her as something as a person, oh, that's this, yeah.

Speaker 1:

This one.

Speaker 2:

So you see how

Speaker 1:

That's the what she chose

Speaker 2:

for That's what she chose for herself.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so

Speaker 2:

A slimmer chair.

Speaker 1:

A slimmer wingback design, very elegant. Circle because she likes circles.

Speaker 2:

And this here is actually something my dad drew and then I beaded that I incorporated in her chair because he's very important to her narrative, you know, so having him as part of her chair

Speaker 1:

was So the first one

Speaker 2:

This one, I'm thinking she's Pisces, I have to have blue in it. Green because she's fertile with ideas and thoughts. I thought the chair kind of hugged you, the way it curved upward, because you know, was thinking of all these things and none of it was right. Wow. None of it was right.

Speaker 1:

So it's like a commentary low key on low key, high key on how people see themselves.

Speaker 2:

Yes. For instance, my father's chair.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

He chose a chair that was an old school telephone chair. Yeah. And and what I was thought that was interesting about him that mimics it in life is that he is one of those people that he likes an object to do

Speaker 1:

more than one thing. Yes. Multifunctional.

Speaker 2:

Gotta be multifunctional. Thing held a book, a phone, and you could sit in it. He chose the most and I wouldn't have thought that for him, but that was what he chose and it made so much sense.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Okay, so now I'm like, okay, what about who's this?

Speaker 2:

So this one is my

Speaker 1:

This is what kind of what would you This

Speaker 2:

is great grandma. Oh, so this is like a sling back. Sling it's almost like one of those wooden chairs that they make in Africa, I'm forgetting what they would call it, but it's more like a carving or a mixture of wood and fabric. So because my great grandparents were closer to indigenous roots, I thought of their chair being something that's more closer to that aesthetic, because I have another one that I think represents America, but I don't know if they have that one in their collection, that's my grandmother.

Speaker 1:

Did you feel like, real quick, to go back to your mom and then like that journey of the chair and picking her chair and not getting it right, did you feel like, oh man, I missed a mark, maybe I don't know her, like I thought I knew her,

Speaker 2:

like Yeah, yeah, it really did that, and it actually pushed me towards therapy, so that, yeah, because I knew I had to resolve the frustrations I had with both my parents, or I will murder them when they get old. I wish I wish I would. Yeah. But like, really, like, because I have unresolved anger towards you. Okay.

Speaker 2:

And I need to resolve it. When I say they didn't hug a lot, that was something I realized that our family didn't really do. Even though I saw her as someone who loved, but that was as she got older, guess it became easier to show, but before it was trickier because she didn't really see that.

Speaker 1:

So I'm looking at all what you're saying, let me go back. Now we got the case studies in front of us, right? Yes. Going back, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1:

To me the chair that you chose for her and then the chair, both of them are beautiful and both of them are elegant in different ways. But the shape of this chair and I don't know your mom, so you tell me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's giving, I don't know encapsulating, it's giving possibly a hug, it's you know like the shape that you you made so this is your inferring right so now this is the one she selected. Yeah. This is how she sees herself. Yes. And I see like the wing back and it's, is she like

Speaker 2:

It's slimmer, streamlined, less cushion, but okay, just some background on my mother during college she was a model. Okay. And she made a little bit of ends that way. So I think and then

Speaker 1:

It's definitely coming through, like everything, the context you're giving me is coming through.

Speaker 2:

There's a certain elegance I feel like she wanted more in a chair with other ones more kind of roundish.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know, and so the yeah. So I feel like those types of elements led to how she felt about herself as a chair.

Speaker 1:

The first one is giving beautiful comfort, matriarchy mom. Comfort. Yes. The second one is giving cool mom, elegant mom. When people stop y'all in the street, they go, is that your mother or is that your sister?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know it. You know it. It's that energy. I appreciate you

Speaker 1:

like sharing that yo. Do you think about like black history, our history when you when you did these like, I think about our legacy with like rest and comfort and not being able to do that always have to look busy so some that's a thing that You came up for

Speaker 2:

know, that's awesome you thought of that because you know what the chair is like a machine. Right, isn't it like it's like a tool of so called comfort. I just used a chair to climb on to get stuff. Right. So it's like, it's also a ladder.

Speaker 2:

I think that's also an interesting thing about chairs and why it connects to this idea of slavery and the chattel, things that you move and then people, because in spaces, sometimes if a person is in a space, often that's their home, they have a chair. Yeah. You know, my grandfather had a chair, that that was his chair. You didn't sit in his chair. Right.

Speaker 2:

So, over time that chair becomes him in a way. Yeah. You know, it's like, could see him in that chair even when he's gone.

Speaker 1:

Oh, my grandma have, well, you know, she's been gone since a long time, 2012? For a long time they kept the chair, right? That was, that's her chair, that was her chair. I have a chair at home, right? Even on TV, even pop culture, Archie Bunker, right?

Speaker 1:

What do think? Archie and Edith, they each had a chair.

Speaker 2:

They had a chair.

Speaker 1:

Every TV dad has a chair. Fraser's dad has a chair, right? So like, it's so much, but for like black people, this the work we do, the having to look busy Yes. And, you know,

Speaker 2:

shit. Yeah, the idea of being able to recline, right? Yeah. To be something of rest. That's wild.

Speaker 1:

Was that going through you at all?

Speaker 2:

Don't think it's a mixture of it. I think, yeah, I think it's a mixture of stuff, because I know for years my mom would say, I'm tired, I'm tired, like, you know what You're a black woman, I'm tired,

Speaker 1:

I'm tired. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And this idea of being the rest, but also being the tool. Yes. You know, so it's that conflict, and that, I guess, burden in a way for brown folks because it happens. We're with the the maintainers of people's space and chairs.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Right? So they can be comfortable, but we're still moving around busy.

Speaker 1:

That was one thing when I was in my old life as a healthcare professional. Was one thing that always kind of indicated, I don't wanna say how they felt about me, or a nurse coming into their home, right, you're from outside, you're coming in, this is an intruder, I get it. Mhmm. I low key didn't wanna be there. And I'm sure my colleagues, right

Speaker 2:

They don't want we're doing the job.

Speaker 1:

Right? But the type of chair that they would give you would often Don't worry. It would make you think like, oh, yeah. They don't give a damn. Or, okay.

Speaker 2:

They watch really you out. And But

Speaker 1:

I'm like, I'm supposed to do this for twelve hours. Right? Like, in between, you know, doing the duties and

Speaker 2:

stuff. Yes.

Speaker 1:

And be relegated to a corner. It's always very felt felt very well, you know, and a lot of health care professionals are, you know, women of color, Caribbean Caribbean. Especially those that come to the house. I used to go to the house and with children. So there was this always this blur right where I knew there was a blur in their mind between like nanny housekeeper nurse.

Speaker 1:

Right? And I'm like, I don't fit that other part of the Venn diagram, but I fit in enough to them to be given this shitty chair, right? To sit in for eight, twelve, sixteen hours, shifts. Mean, to sit in it, but you know, dude, I'm that's just your like space, man. Woah, that's wild.

Speaker 1:

Like, you can tell a lot, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So yes, I try to always think about, you know, these connection things, like with my grandfather's chair, he had a twin sister Marie, so that is a two, there are two chairs that look similar but they're a little bit different and the But

Speaker 1:

this is a straight back chair, I'm just describing it for the people that can't

Speaker 2:

see Yes, it's a yes.

Speaker 1:

With a yellow back and a blue kind of patterned seat. Yes. And it's very straight.

Speaker 2:

Very straight chair and thank you for acknowledging that, it's very straight and it's almost like those old school school chairs, and the idea of those chairs were to make you pay attention, and it wasn't about comfort, so, and I don't mean to imply that towards my grandfather and my and his sister, but they were uncomfortable people. You know, they had a lineage of preachers in their family, people who started churches and what have you, and you can imagine being raised in the South during the segregation, ginphone, all these different things that were terrorizing black people, you had to know how to stay in line. That was important. Your parents wanted you to stay in line because they didn't want you to get murdered, and you didn't wanna get murdered. So my grandfather was not a huggy person, he was sometimes mean, he was also way older than my grandmother, my grandmother was 19 years old when he proposed to her, what have you, and got married, and he was 30 was Yeah, grown he was grown grown.

Speaker 2:

He was grown grown and in the military.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So you can imagine very straight man. Yeah. When he get saucy he can get either fun or

Speaker 1:

Or not fun.

Speaker 2:

Or not fun.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I was blessed that I didn't get to witness too much of that. I know that he didn't talk, and it was funny. It's a

Speaker 1:

you chose the chair for him?

Speaker 2:

I chose the But chair for I, you know, I loosely do quiet meditation when dealing with stuff like this. I allow spirit to talk to me and translate certain things because I didn't know how to pick somebody else's chair.

Speaker 1:

I

Speaker 2:

failed with my mother. So, in that I was really hesitant, but then I saw this chair and it just made sense. And then as you can see the floor part is no longer there, because the floor part has been removed, but that's his. And then, oh, this was something funny too that I learned about myself was that when designing my chair, I chose a chair that was very, it like reclined, but when I reinterpreted it, if you notice it's

Speaker 1:

very straight

Speaker 2:

back, and I realized it's because I can get quite controlling. I'm like really, and I always thought myself as a laid back person. Yeah, but even with the shape like I prefer the square and that's even with all these corners and yeah, it's kind of tight in a way like, I realized that, and I'm like, no, I'm not that chill. No. No.

Speaker 1:

Can I touch I'm not

Speaker 2:

that chill? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Oh, yeah, it's hard.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there's areas that's canvas, and then here you can see this is a flap of fabric that's covering a piece of canvas, and then in some areas I use felt. This is upholstery fabric that I found that I really loved, the grid of it, And then you can see, like, this grid kinda being reproduced here as well. But it has some circular elements in it. You know, I'm trying to balance that squareness out. And then the bottom was to interpret the floor, but that may be changed to as I recreate them without the canvas, I don't know how that's gonna look.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you'll just it'll come to you. It'll come to you. I'm so glad that you found the

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1:

The bag. Know. Who else is in the bag?

Speaker 2:

Who else is in the and I just got fabulous, okay.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, is this

Speaker 2:

That's your grandfather's right, that's his sister. Marie, she used to have a rifle or grand well she ain't from Atlanta so that's how they roll

Speaker 1:

anyway. Yeah, that's a sad

Speaker 2:

My Atlanta family.

Speaker 1:

That's normal.

Speaker 2:

Yes, that's very normal.

Speaker 1:

So you said they were twins?

Speaker 2:

They were twins, yes. And I've heard stories about Aunt Marie, she

Speaker 1:

was

Speaker 2:

someone not to mess with. So this is my great grandmother. And that's my grandmother, and that was her mother.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And so when she was born, she was the last of four to be born to my great great grandmother, Rachel, who passed away during labor.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And so the father, he was unable to take care of all four children because she had three other siblings.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

So he spread them out to other friends and family, just, yeah. So in this picture, she ends up finding her family. She finds her sister and she's on this porch sitting at a table with her sister Emma, and that story, I feel like this idea of abandonment and having to find each other.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And even without the disruption of direct bias or racism, like, know, because they're dealing with the South and all kinds of nonsense, when I grew up, I'm dealing with the same abandonment because capitalism has taken my parents out of the home, So now I'm a latchkey kid who is Preach. Raising myself, and then after I had my brother, helping raise my brother and take care of the home before my parents can get home because they're at work until five doing bullshit ass work.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Not not that they work because No. No.

Speaker 1:

Like, the function of

Speaker 2:

Yeah. The function of how they were making people labor

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Back in the day was crazy. And they loved you. I knew my parents loved me, but I felt abandoned because I didn't get to spend good time with them because when they came home they were tired. Yeah. They didn't want to hear anything, don't want to deal with anybody, and then the weekends weren't so good because you're still doing chores,

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And you're catching up on what you missed out all week. All week And what you missed also was your kids. And your kids missed you.

Speaker 2:

And then when you have parents that are educators Yeah. It's another Dig. Dig to your side because they're spending time with unbeatable kids.

Speaker 1:

Other people kid. Girl, yeah, yes.

Speaker 2:

So it's like, my god, I yeah. Just wanna Yeah. So it and it's no one's fault. Like, are things I had to discuss with my therapist. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Because I just had to resolve the frustration. I felt abandoned, and I had to deal with why I felt abandoned, and then once I was able to do that and realize how it was a history of that, our family had a history of people who would just leave, and then women would have pick up and figure it out, then that ended up being my life, where I ended up going through a divorce, and then I had to figure out how am I gonna raise these kids

Speaker 1:

with do gonna do this?

Speaker 2:

You know So, what I yes, that's to say, in healing the childhood, you understand how that affects who you are now, and how that now I can affect the future, my daughter and my son will have different options than I had, or a different sense of reality, But I do tell them about the history just so they're aware.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so then was there a healing process with the chairs? Was there just a similar type of revelation?

Speaker 2:

It's so funny you said, I think it was the chairs felt more like me learning about people that I've lived with but don't know. I realized I don't know these people. You know, like who are you really, like did you date other people? Did you, you know, tell me something about your life.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know, other than you need

Speaker 1:

to. Right. Did you? So yeah, because like, as you the younger person, everything is directed towards you. What are you doing?

Speaker 1:

What did you do? And then themselves, when the grown ups tell us about themselves

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's like, let me prove to you, like, I'm a worthy grown up, so you should listen to me. I absolutely So we end up never learning anything about them because why would you wanna ask the ornery ass nigga? Like, I'm sorry. Why would you wanna ask? Right?

Speaker 1:

Why would you wanna know? So the chairs helped you go on a journey of, like, learning who your people were. Mhmm. Damn. That's real.

Speaker 2:

Well, asking questions and then actually listening to the answers, because it's funny, I've been told that story so many times about my great grandmother, never pay attention. Never pay attention. I listened to them and then was like, oh, okay, bet. And then in my mind, I would change it up a little bit, parts of it, because I didn't really understand what was happening. And then as time went on, I was like, no, tell me the story again so I And could then my cousin, she started doing research.

Speaker 2:

She sent me letters of what had happened from my grandfather's sister. She was a big help in understanding some of the missed parts because that was something that would happen. The elders would die with these stories because they were ashamed of them. They thought there was something wrong Right.

Speaker 1:

With what happened, but It's just a part of history.

Speaker 2:

It's a part of history. If I was a guy who didn't know how to raise kids and my wife died Mhmm. I would try to find safe spaces for my kids too. Right. You know?

Speaker 2:

I wouldn't disappear, but, you know, like, everybody's different. I can't, you know, I can't be upset at what people did. It's done.

Speaker 1:

What started as a trip to see a friend about her chair project quietly turned into something else entirely. An art therapy session I didn't know I needed. Sitting with Nicole and now with Elan, I'm realizing chairs are never just chairs. They're invitations, they're boundaries, they're mirrors. They tell us who gets to rest, who gets to linger, and who's expected to stay ready to move.

Speaker 1:

A friend of mine, Amy Gastelum sent me a note in the spirit of episode two. A passage from the book Living a Feminist Life by Sarah Ahmed about comfort as a kind of fit. And I wanted to share it with y'all. Here's Amy.

Speaker 3:

This is on page, 122. This is chapter five. Uncomfortable. I often think through the politics of comfort through chairs. Furniture is always good to think with.

Speaker 3:

Think of how it feels to be comfortable. Say you're sinking into a comfortable chair. Comfort is about the fit between body and object. My comfortable chair might be awkward for you with your differently shaped body. Comfort is about an encounter between more than one body, the promise of a sinking feeling.

Speaker 3:

Heteronormativity functions as a form of public comfort, by allowing bodies to extend into spaces that have already taken their shape. Those spaces are lived as comfortable as they allow bodies to fit in. The surfaces of social space are already impressed upon by the shape of such bodies, like a chair that acquires its shape by the repetition of some bodies inhabiting it.

Speaker 1:

I really appreciate this connection and after hearing this and having my conversation with Alon something definitely shifted in me. If heteronormativity and whiteness, let's be real, is a form of public comfort then being black and comfortable in public is and always has been a quiet rebellion. Rebellion. Rest becomes resistance. Sitting becomes political.

Speaker 1:

Choosing ease, softness, or stillness becomes a refusal. I got so many gems during my time with Elan, more than I could ever fit into one conversation. But before we move on, I wanted to leave space for one last offering from our good sis. Okay, so I have a question, maybe something that you could leave our people with.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's

Speaker 1:

a You know, you're an educator, an artist educator, so like, I guess how can people explore their own comfort, their own relationship to rest and their lineage and anything that they want to reflect on, like a small way that a person could do that.

Speaker 2:

Well, Isaac, the first thing that came to mind when you said that was take the fear out. Take the fear out because in every workshop that I've ever taught, and I wish it wasn't the truth but in every workshop I taught, there's always people afraid to try. Yes. And I'm like I'm giving you space time and no

Speaker 1:

Right, when you say afraid to try they just like don't want to put anything down or

Speaker 2:

They don't want to try, and they always start with the first thing, I'm not an artist. We can all be artists because we're all creative people. That's what capitalism has tricked us to not understand, like, we have the ability to make everything and have anything we can create. Right? The interruptions have disrupted that ability.

Speaker 2:

And I say interruptions is too much television, too many ideas outside your own brain that have their own intentions, right, because the intentions of someone is very important. You got to understand what is their attention. Take the fear out of it. You can be an artist and not be a professional artist. And I think that's it.

Speaker 2:

Because once you don't have the fear, you can approach anything and just fucking try it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And sometimes, like me, I'm interdisciplinary. So sometimes I'm doing painting, sometimes I'm doing sculpture. Right. That's a sculpture in the back. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know me? So, you know, it's all those steps, but you have to take the fear out, and I know people say, oh, you know, it's tricky when you're in this situation, you don't want people to have certain expectations, right, of what you're gonna create. It's not about what the final product looks like, It's always about the experience of it. If you get something you like afterward, that's a plus, and it's all subjective. Why are preaching?

Speaker 2:

You're preaching. Subjective. No. Because it's just thinking about all those people that I've had to convince at the beginning of a workshop to come into the room, just come into the room. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know, and then you can't get them to leave the room.

Speaker 1:

Needed it.

Speaker 2:

They needed it. Yeah. They needed it, And it's like, there you go. And I don't say anything about it, I'm just like, I'm proud of you for being here.

Speaker 1:

That's it. That's So once you've taken the fear out, what's a small thing you could do to, you know

Speaker 2:

You said it. Yeah. You said it. What did I say? You said try.

Speaker 1:

Try. You just transition. Okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And then in that trying, what's making you scared? Yeah. Acknowledging whatever that is that's making you scared in that moment. Because then that's another thing we've been taught.

Speaker 2:

Ignore the messages our brain is telling you. You get feelings for a reason. Right. Right? So if something's you feeling anxious, I'm feeling scared about something.

Speaker 2:

Why? Why are you feeling scared about this thing? What are your fears? And then tell yourself those fears, no matter how embarrassing they are, and then confront them and be like, you know what, why was I afraid?

Speaker 1:

Facts.

Speaker 2:

You know what I mean? Try. Try. Be fearless in that trying.

Speaker 1:

And what about our rest?

Speaker 2:

Oh, and rest. That's why I went over there. Rest is resistance. That's it. This woman knows.

Speaker 1:

Trisha Hersey. That's right. I went

Speaker 2:

to see her talk at Schaumburg. This is like a their Bible. I have my own set of Bible. Like I said, I have family, they're religious whatever.

Speaker 1:

We're the book recommendations right now. Ilan's book recommendations.

Speaker 2:

Oh my God.

Speaker 1:

She's over there.

Speaker 2:

Oh my goodness. At the bookcase. My I'm God. So sorry.

Speaker 1:

You're gonna have to hit us with the speed version.

Speaker 2:

Oh god. Oh, get that way. And don't worry. It's not gonna Killing be the Black Body.

Speaker 1:

Read

Speaker 2:

it. Yes. Read it. Dorothy Roberts. She's also an artist, but she's a writer and a researcher.

Speaker 2:

This book is amazing and she has a ton of other history books that are amazing. Go. The Prophet, of course, that's old school. This one for young people. Tim Tingle, How I Became a Ghost, about the Trail of Tears, Find out about the holocaust that happened in North America.

Speaker 2:

We had a holocaust. Go off. Multiple ones.

Speaker 1:

Off.

Speaker 2:

Audie Lorde. Yes. Yes. Sister Outsider, one of the best collections of her books. Talk about wisdom, guidance, love, that woman knew.

Speaker 2:

And of course, rest is resistance. Rest is resistance. They taught us to be slaves. And if white people think they're not slaves too, check the record. Y'all dying from cancer and everything else too.

Speaker 2:

That's because you need fucking rest. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Speaker 1:

Sorry, not sorry.

Speaker 2:

Sorry, not sorry. We need rest. We need rest. The pandemic told us that we should have listened. I don't know why we're trying to go back to what we used to do.

Speaker 2:

We cannot. We can't. We cannot.

Speaker 1:

So, we sit, we read, rest, rest, we try, we let go of the fear.

Speaker 2:

That's

Speaker 1:

right. Those are Ilan's steps for reclaiming your life. We sit, we read, we rest, we try, we let go of the fear. Let go of that fear. Amen.

Speaker 2:

Amen. Thank

Speaker 1:

you, Ilan, for welcoming us into your studio, into your world, into your life. You can find our friend artist Ilan Cadiz at her website, ilancadiz.com, elancadiz.com, and on Instagram at Ilan High Art. That is Ilan, h I a r t. This God Quest, not so many bonus episode was produced by Trey Jones and hosted and executive produced by me, Keisha TK Dutest of Philo's Future Media with post production by Many Faces. Links to the Vogue article where Ilan's work was featured will be in our show notes as well as a link to Sarah Ahmed's Living a Feminist Life.

Speaker 1:

You can call or text me on the secret lifeline like Amy did at (929) 551-4363 or leave a voice note at philosfuturemedia@gmail. That's philoswithaphfuturemedia@Gmail.com. And if you wanna help us become an award winning podcast, I need you to rate and review us everywhere and consider becoming a Patreon member at patreon.com/secretlifeoftk. Your contribution helps us enter award categories so they could put some respect on our names. Next time we meet, we take a moment for grief in episode three coming soon.

Speaker 1:

This unveiling of the chairs

Speaker 2:

so sad they came out of garbage bag but no I

Speaker 1:

still you know you have to

Speaker 2:

from Vogue to garbage bag. Maybe Balenciaga curated this.