On this CATChat episode, Krysia, Ian and Zoe are chatting about their experieces of Christmas as neurodivergent people, and advice they would give to others who find aspects of the festive season challenging.
Krysia and Zoe's articles on neurodiversity and Christmas:
Tips for Managing the Demands of the Festive Season: https://ndconnection.co.uk/blog/managing-festive-season
Krysia and Zoe's articles on neurodiversity and Christmas:
Tips for Managing the Demands of the Festive Season: https://ndconnection.co.uk/blog/managing-festive-season
Acheiving Authenticity: https://practicaltheologyhub.com/?p=1114
If you have any questions, or just want to say hi, email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on twitter @autismtheology.
This podcast is brought to you by The University of Aberdeen's Centre for Autism and Theology.
Transcript available here:
https://share.transistor.fm/s/df212167/transcript.txt
Website: www.abdn.ac.uk/sdhp/centre-for-the-study-of-autism-and-christian-community-1725.php
The Centre for Autism and Theology logo was designed by Holly Russel.
Creators & Guests
Host
Ian Lasch
PhD candidate at the university of Aberdeen researching autism and the Imago Dei
Host
What is Autism and Theology Podcast?
The Autism and Theology Podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways in which both faith and non-faith communities can enable autistic people to flourish.
Our episodes are released on the first Wednesday of every month. We have a variety of guests who are related in some way to the field of autism and theology. Some are academics, others are people with life stories to share, and some are both!
We also release CATChat every third Wednesday of the month. These are shorter and more informal episodes where your hosts will share news and give you as listeners an opportunity to ask questions and share your stories.
 Krysia:
Welcome to our fourth episode of CATChat. CATChat is a space where we have more informal conversations and answer questions about autism and theology and share experiences.
Zoe:
So this CAT Chat episode, we're going to be talking a little bit about Christmas and the festive period. So we thought we'd just kind of start by sharing a little bit about our own kind of traditions in Christmas and how we sort of celebrate Christmas in our different contexts and what Christmas looks like to us.
So, for me, I'm a very Christmassy person. My house is like, um, Christmas winter wonderland. My dog has a Santa hat. It's like, it's very, um, exciting. But yeah, for me, like, Christmas time is such a lovely space where I enjoy the festivities, but also I really enjoy church at Christmas time. I always, I grew up in the Church of Scotland, so it was very much, um, a lot of the kind of Christmas Eve services, Christingles, lighting the candles on a Sunday.
And yeah, it's a time of year where I feel, and I know this isn't for everyone, but for me I do feel like it's a time where I engage with God or reflect on God a little bit more and I'm just more aware of God's goodness at Christmas time. So yeah, that's a little bit about my kind of context with Christmas.
Ian
And for me, I'm actually kind of similar, Zoe. I, I really, really love Christmas for a lot of different reasons. Um, I, I'm sensitive to hot temperatures. So Christmas, it finally gets cool or cold even, um, I love Christmas music, um, especially. Church Christmas music less than secular or more so than secular Christmas music, but, um, I love like peppermint mochas.
I, you know, um, and so it's just a really, um, it's a really fun time for me. I'm also, I'm, I'm realizing, and this isn't language I had put to it before, but I'm some sort of sensory seeking when it comes to like singing at church, like I like hearing a really full choir and hearing a bunch of people singing along and you get that at Christmas like you get it nowhere else no other time of year because people know the Christmas hymns that like they don't know Easter hymns as well or or any other time of year. So, um, for me, it's a, it's a really exciting time. I also think, um, coming from a liturgical tradition. um, helps me because you have this season of advent, so it's not this sudden transition you have this preparation time, right? Like, you know what's coming, um, which, which really helps me sort of enter into the season. Um, so for me, I, I just, I, I really love it. Um, I recognize that that's not everyone's experience of it, but, um, but for me, it's, it's, it really is an exciting time.
Zoe
Ian, could you share a little bit more about, like, the kind of liturgical tradition and how that looks around Christmas time?
Ian
Yeah. So, um, for us, we have four weeks of Advent leading up to Christmas. Um, and that's a sort of season of preparation of anticipation. And it's one of those, you know, I think that, um, especially being autistic, having that lead time, having a sort of expectation really helps. the transition, like if Christmas just showed up one day, I would be probably much less okay with it.
Um, so that's a, that to me is a big part of it, but also having this defined period of celebration, um, of 12 days, right? Where that runs sort of counter to the secular calendar. So, you know, In, in the world outside, you go to the, you go to the stores and, um, as soon as it's Thanksgiving, you're hearing Christmas music constantly, right?
Um, but in, uh, in church, you don't hear the real Christmas music until Christmas Eve or Christmas day. And then you hear it for 12 more days. Um, so it's just this, it, it, it, it, for me, the, the having the tradition, having the structure to it really gives me, uh, uh, an expectation of what to expect, um, or, or a set of set of sort of guidelines on what to expect.
And it helps me enter into the season without a great deal of anxiety. And I know that's not true for everyone, because there is a tremendous amount of pressure that goes along with the Christmas season. But for me, it, it, it's, it's so much less stressful than a lot of the rest of the year where you're just sort of on your own.
Krysia
I guess for me, I've been in and out of a variety of different traditions at Christmas, generally Methodist and Baptist traditions, and a lot of the things are the same. Um, I did find that, find that growing up in a Baptist church, we never did a Christingle, particularly, that was very much more in the Methodist church, so that was a new thing, when we moved across.
And I guess, in terms, it's, of our discussion, it's really important to, to, um, remember that, actually not everyone necessarily feels safe in churches at Christmas time, perhaps due to different reasons. So some people may not attend things and might, some people may attend things like online groups of like disabled led groups or other support groups that will have a similar function that might have say Bible readings or singing carols and other things to kind of uphold those parts of traditions.
Certainly from my background, there was always quite a lot of things like candles by, um, candles by I was going to say candles by carol light but that's not right, it's carols by candle light. Um, and Christmas tree festivals where people would do a lot of outreach into the community so there'll be different ways people will seek to gather at this wonderful time.
Zoe
Yeah, absolutely. And then, um, you know, we've had a few conversations as well, like Ian sort of mentioned people who also don't feel part of communities at Christmas time. And yeah, that's also an important perspective to consider too.
Krysia
Definitely. And I think different communities may look different to different people. And so although some people may be very strong within a very strong certain type of um, church background, there'll be others that are a lot more fluid, um, and, and that's absolutely fine, or some people who might attend less regularly around Christmas due to things like the pressure. Or feel it with the amount of extra people that come in at Christmas. Because there are some people who will just attend for Christmas and it might be that bit extra busy. That bit extra, certainly something I've found, is with the amount of candles and incense, it's that bit extra smelly and I'm quite, um, smell sensory aversive. I find it, especially things like Christingles , I find the smell of oranges really quite overwhelming and makes me feel quite sick. So I find it quite difficult.
Ian
I think, uh, I think that's a great way of putting Christmas, is that in the church Christmas is just a little bit extra in basically every possible way. Right? And for some people that's a really good thing and for some people it's a really horrifying thing, a really repulsing thing. Um, and um, one of the things I wanted to say too, about Christmas, one of the things that I love about Christmas is that, um, especially being neurodivergent, is that it's one of the few times that the year that it feels like everybody's on the same page, right?
So if you are on that page, especially as a neurodivergent person, it it feels like belonging that you don't always get the rest of the year, right? Because if everybody's rejoicing and you're able to rejoice, then it's like, hey, hold on, I'm a part of this, right? Um, but if you're not there, that's the trouble with the liturgical tradition or, or just the observation of of the ebb and flow of of religious life is if you're not in that space, if you're not feeling particularly joyful, and everybody's trying to bring you along for the ride, then it's, then it's sometimes even worse, right? If you're missing someone, if you're grieving something, and everybody's saying rejoice, then it's like, I don't even have room to grieve this loss, or I don't even have the space to sort of deal with what I'm going through.
Krysia
Something which my parents church did for a few years, which actually folds really nicely onto what Ian was saying, was they did a Blue Christmas service, which I think is wonderful because it allows people to come as they are if they have difficult times going on, especially through things like grief, and I always thought that was quite beautiful. I never went to a blue Christmas service, but I think it really helps hold the Christmas space and the importance and the, and having that space with God at the same time whilst realising it might not be happy clappy jumpy smiley, as some people might want to celebrate Christmas.
Ian
Right, and a blue Christmas service is usually a lot fewer people, it's usually a lot more contemplative style, so if you're not sensory seeking, even if you're not necessarily grieving, a blue Christmas service can be a really good opportunity to sort of enter into a calmer, quieter, Christmas sy type space that holds up that hope, even amidst grief and despair and lament.
So, uh, Blue Christmas service is one way of, um, sort of entering into the Christmas season that may be a little bit more friendly for neurodivergent people. Um, I also, you know, one of the things that I like to do is, um, I have these little in ear um, ear protection called loops that I like to put in and they help mute noise. So I can't do that if I'm leading services, but if I managed to go to like a Christmas concert or something, and it's, um, a lot of people, sometimes it can still be a bit much, even for me, even though that's what I really like. Um, so I'll bring those and that. Just helps tremendously. Um, I think also, you know, we, one of the things that we emphasize in the church is the importance of being there, importance of being community but the reality is nobody's there every single service that happens in the church, right? I could say that was authority because I'm the clergy person and I'm not even there for every single service, right? So if you have to not be there sometimes, that's okay. Um, and if there's ways of, um, Sort of self-preservation you know, if you need to step out for a moment, if you need to, um, find a different church, right? If your church is great on the average Sunday, but a bit too much on Christmas, and you need to find a smaller church to worship in, that isn't overwhelming, um, then I think that's an option If you need to um, establish your own traditions.
Um, one of the things that, you know, a lot of churches have a tradition of lighting an Advent wreath, at least here in America I don't know if that's the case in the UK. Um, but that started as a home devotion, right? That we imported into the church. And so keeping that as a home devotion, as a way of sort of entering into the space of Advent and preparing it preparing for Christmas, that doesn't necessarily have to have all the pomp and circumstance and rigmarole of worshiping in a congregation.
So that's not to say that, um, you can get everything that you get on Sunday, just doing things at home, but you can still enter into sacred space and sacred time and, and prepare for Christmas without engaging in every single Christmas or Advent offering at your church.
Krysia
I would absolutely echo this. In fact, I actually recently wrote an article for Neurodiverse Connection, which should be going up very soon, hopefully. It's going up just before Christmas. Um, and one of the things I wrote about in that was about finding our own, what is important to us and making sure we kind of follow the traditions and the beliefs that are important to us. Um, and carving out that space, but also yet not feeling the pressure to feel like you have to do, go to, obviously it was a much broader article, don't go to every single work party if you feel like you need some time out. But at the same time, if you want to go, absolutely go. Um, so it's about knowing yourself and I guess knowing that you can carve out sacred time and sacred space in a place that works for you, um, is absolutely key and central to looking after yourself, but also having that really good being able to have that relationship with God that is important to you and have that Christmas time and space.
Zoe
Yeah, this is something I've been looking at a lot recently in connection with dyslexia, um, and the sort of, I find, I'm an evangelical pentecostal context, so this is probably more so for me than a lot of other traditions, but a lot of these things come up around Christmas time and New Year, like the one I've been seeing loads is read 24 chapters, the 24 chapters of Luke, one chapter a day and then by Christmas you'll wake up knowing who, who Jesus is and why we celebrate him at Christmas.
And firstly, Like, I mean, I do think that's great if people want to do that, that's lovely. Um, but I know for me, I would get to day five, maybe, potentially. And then I would feel really guilty every other day for not managing to do it. And then I'd probably panic and just feel like I'm not a very good Christian and that I can't then properly celebrate Christmas because I've not properly understood it Um, and then again you get to new year and then you've got a lot of these Bible plans like Bible in a year or the 30 day shreds Um and something I've been reflecting on is knowing what works for me, kind of like you were saying, like knowing where these spaces are where you can engage with God at Christmas and in the festivities without feeling pressure to do what everyone else is doing, or engage with God in the way that everyone else is engaging with God, and just making sure that you, yeah, you do that in a way that's not pressured. And that's, me saying that from a context of a dyslexic person, but I think that's true for everyone.
Krysia
Definitely. It's actually something I'm looking at in my data right now and one of the things that's come out really strongly from the conversations I had with people is people not feeling they'd quite met the mark of being a good enough Christian or a good enough Muslim because they couldn't do X, Y, Z, when X, Y, Z was actually just normalcy in practice and without actually thinking about how they might, what works for them, and actually it's still just as valid and still just as good it's not any less, and I think keeping that kind of front and centre at Christmas, when we put that in a Christmas context, really helps understand that there isn't such a thing as a kind of a right thing to do. There's what's right for us to do as neurodivergent people.
Ian
And this is, I, it, one of the things that's, that's most common about these seasons of preparation in the Church, about Advent and Lent, is that they always seem to come with a lot of rules, right? Like there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. You're, you have to do this or, you know, you have to do that. Don't put your tree up until Christmas Eve. Uh, you know, don't, and, and don't listen to Christmas music until it's actually Christmas. All these different things. And if that helps you, great, right? Um, but if it doesn't, then ignore it. Um, and I know that's easier said than done, but the, but the truth is like all of these rules, every single rule around the observation of Christmas is made up, right?
Like the only thing that matters about Christmas is that is that Christ came and was incarnate, right? That's, that's what Christmas is about. And anything that we add to that celebration and observation is meant to heighten it. And if it doesn't, then we shouldn't do it because we're actually detracting from it, right?
Um, and in Lent, for example, you see this more commonly. It used to be common practice for people to give something up during Lent, right? Um, as a, as a means of penitence or as a means of preparation. And now we've gotten into the habit, at least I see it much more commonly that people take something on, add a spiritual discipline or add a prayer practice or add study well, if our culture is obsessed with productivity and efficiency, then if we want to be countercultural, what we should do is really take something away, right? So there's something actually wholly about that Lenten practice of giving something up, like give up something that is a stressor, um, in anticipation of Christmas, create space that you didn't otherwise have.
Just to anticipate Christmas and to contemplate what it means, um, I, to me, that's a, that's a potentially much more fruitful practice than say, trying to get through the entirety of Luke's gospel in anticipation of Christmas, because Christ is going to come whether you read Luke's gospel or not, right?
And if you read Luke's gospel and it helps you. Um, then do it, but if it's just another stressor, if it's just another thing on the pile of overwhelming stuff to be done, then forget it, because it's not helping.
Krysia
That really reminds me of the phrase, rest is resistance, in terms of rather than adding and adding and adding.
And although something additive might be really useful for Lent, I've actually never heard of anybody, certainly in my circle, taking on something extra for Lent. I think hearing your the argument you give and the kind of the views actually, for me, grounds to why if you are going to do something for Lent, why you should be stripping back and having that rest, having almost that holy, sacred time and space.
I mean, usually when I was growing up, if you gave something up for Lent, it was chocolate or sweets or, um, and it was something very kind of, transactional rather than actually making space. So I think if there's one thing I take away from this conversation, it's the, it's how we make space and how we do it and it's right for us rather than things being transactional or additive, just to kind of please other people and inter perform the way that perhaps either they want us to or that we think they want us to.
Zoe
Yeah, we have a, um, friend who, um, she does a little bit of work with the Centre, but her, um, work is in OCD and faith, and she sent over, we had a conversation about this topic and how Christmas, how she finds Christmas as someone living with OCD, and she was saying exactly that, she needs to make sure that she finds space and strips things back a bit and doesn't overcommit herself or she will just get anxious and overwhelmed and then just not enjoy anything of Christmas because Yeah, it's overwhelming.
So yeah, just like finding that space and making sure you're actually building it into your routine rather than just like, oh, I've got a spare 20 minutes. I'm going to sit down and have a cup of tea. Like knowing your limits and knowing when you just need to pair back. And then I think also Maybe this is a little bit, like, over spiritual of me, but I think as well in these spaces we can sometimes find God more than we do when we're trying really hard to do something super spiritual, like when we're just in those moments of calm, when we're just relaxing and reflecting in whatever way that looks like those can be some of the most like, spiritual times of our lives.
Krysia
I would agree that we don't, I've been told many times throughout my life that God will pop up in places not necessarily where you think God will pop up. And I think Christmas is a really good example with where we have things in a very, um, where it's very, very busy and there's lots going on.
Actually, it's not about what we do, it's how we are. It's kind of flipping it around a bit, like kind of perfecting what we've said so far.
Zoe
Ian, just as we kind of bring this conversation to a close, I wonder if you could share some thoughts from the perspective of someone who leads services and is in ministry yourself. How would you recommend that other practitioners Make sure these spaces are, um, as neuro divergent friendly as possible. I mean, we've given some ideas, but yeah do you have anything else to add about that?
Ian
Um, I, I, I think, you know, at risk of of, uh, going exactly against what I said earlier, like the, the reality is life is different as a clergy person, right? And sometimes. I, what I advise other people to do is not what I can do myself, right? So Advent is a busier time, much, much busier time for me as a clergy person.
And to the extent that you're able as a clergy person, having a variety of different experiences available, right? If you don't already have a midweek Eucharist, having that in the, or midweek. worship service of some sort. If you don't already have that as part of your pattern, doing something like that during Advent can be a really, a way of lessening the crowd size while still entering into, into the Holy season.
Um, offering opportunities for study, for formation, for fellowship that aren't, um, that aren't structured, that aren't, More work for people, you know, that they can just show up and maybe have a meal and, um, and, and engage with each other. Um, I think, I think the best thing is to try your, you, you can't be all things to all people, but you can provide a variety of experiences in hopes that something that gets done, um, will, will be able to, to hit the needs of, of some of your people. Right. And within reason, like the point is not to burn yourself out so badly that come Christmas, you are absolutely wiped out. Um, so I, I want to be careful of that, but, but to the extent that you're able to add some different experiences so that people can engage in the season in ways that they're comfortable.
That's my, that's my best advice.
Zoe
Yeah. Thanks Ian. This has been such a great conversation and I hope that, um, people listening get something valuable from this and also just know that your feelings and experience are your own and that's valid and yeah, just however you might feel during this festive period that's absolutely all right and we hope that you can find spaces to reflect and engage with others if that's what you want to do. Um, but yeah, we hope you all have a lovely festive period and we will be back in a few weeks time for our January episodes.