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Always Be Testing explores the experiments, insights, and growth stories shaping the future of affiliate and partner marketing in B2B SaaS. Hosted by industry veterans, the show dives deep into real-world lessons from the people driving measurable impact at companies like Google, HubSpot, Ramp, Webflow, G2, and beyond.
Each episode uncovers what happens when today's most innovative marketers challenge assumptions, run smarter experiments, and build programs that scale revenue through meaningful partnerships. If you’re in affiliate, partnerships, or SaaS growth — this is your front-row seat to how the best do it (and what they’ve learned along the way
Tye DeGrange (00:01.333)
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing Podcast. I'm your host, Ty DeGrange, and I'm excited to talk to Michelle Etherton today. Michelle, how are you?
Michelle Eatherton (00:12.524)
I'm great. It's a Monday. Couldn't be better, right?
Tye DeGrange (00:15.069)
It's it's a Monday. No case of the Mondays here. We're going for it. We're talking about all things partner led growth and it's great to have you on. I appreciate you. And I know you've been traveling a lot lately, so thanks for making it happen in your busy schedule.
Michelle Eatherton (00:30.872)
course, great to be here.
Tye DeGrange (00:32.873)
Absolutely. So Michelle is a great guest. She has been in partnerships for twenty-three years. As many of you know, partnerships are at the core of what we do and a lot of our conversations on the always be testing pod. She's the chief business officer of liminal.ai. And the way I've kind of thought about it, we'll let Michelle give her great perspective, is that it's essentially helping enterprises.
get the upsides of AI without sacrificing data privacy and compliance. Is that accurate?
Michelle Eatherton (01:06.22)
Yeah, at our core we're solving for that security, compliance, governance issue within AI. I want to use these tools, but I want my private data protected. and additionally, we also solve for the dilemma of one day it's Chat GPT, the next day it's cloud, who knows what it is the next day. So this ability to have multi-model access to the latest and greatest out there, all governed under one hood in a really cost effective way. So that's what we're solving for.
Tye DeGrange (01:35.777)
That's awesome. And from what you shared, it sounds like it's definitely getting the traction, which is super exciting.
You we talked a little bit about this, but how did you end up with at at Liminal and you know, what what makes it kind of the right thing to be solving for right now?
Michelle Eatherton (01:50.892)
Yeah, I think well, you know, I think a lot of these stories end up with a a personal twist on them. So this one is no different in that I know the CEO and co-founder of Liminal, Steve Wolchek, well on both a professional and personal level. We met during our mutual time together at Amazon Web Services, and we were on a team together. We were peer managers and
Quickly became friends, and we went on to do other things within AWS and then at subsequent companies, but always wanted to figure out a way to work together again. And so a few years ago, three years ago now, he was looking for his next adventure and the idea of Liminal had been born, and knew that there was going to be a strong need for a partnership play in that business and contacted me and
I suppose you could say the rest is history with a with a few more details in between as to what made me say yes to doing this crazy wild riot of early stage startup.
Tye DeGrange (02:49.802)
Not not easy, not not for the faint of heart, as you and I know all too well and and commendable and I love that story. when you think about enterprises, your core customer audience, right, and the challenge of AI governance, what's a sign that you you're starting to see, okay, this enterprise brand in particular is kind of needing limital now. What are some of the signals that they're ready?
Michelle Eatherton (03:14.679)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think you spend that first certainly year or year and a half, and you're always learning on this, of course, but that first year, year and a half is listening to those signals and pivoting accordingly. And it we've never deviated from solving for that security, compliance, governance perspective, but who we were targeting from a size perspective has definitely evolved. We always knew and built liminal for
regulated, regulated adjacent industries. So regulated think banking, financial services, insurance, healthcare, life sciences, government, et cetera. I think we thought initially that we would be more of a large enterprise play, and it became evident early on, as with many technology trends, you've got the large enterprises that will
When new things like this come down the pike, they're going to try to build it themselves. They're going to experiment, they're going to try to drive and build and figure out all the pieces themselves. the smaller organizations are typically content with some of the tools off the shelf. And it became clear that the underserved area for this was kind of that mid market, mid enterprise space. Those that maybe thought about doing some sort of build, a liminal like
capability themselves, but they just don't have the teams to manage that sort of thing. It's not their core competency. It's not where they're going to put their limited resources. and that became really the sweet spot of where we have focused in that kind of mid-enterprise, which plays really well in the partner landscape as well, or the partner strategy that we've elected to get on the the path of.
Tye DeGrange (04:54.582)
I love that. Super understandable and can identify with that ourselves having leading a lot of this out for for SaaS brands and kind of looking at that sweet spot. So it makes a lot of sense. going back a little bit to your great partner, partner led growth partnerships experience, I'm curious to know, you know, when you're kind of discussing partnerships internally, what are some of the things that you, you know, you kind of have to
prove out or validate before it's kind of okay, it's time for partnerships. And that's a little bit of that is the the the internal conversations with leadership that are maybe not as well versed. Given you've done this so long, I'd love to hear your perspective on, you know, what are some of those signals and what are some of those data points that kind of say, okay, it's time. I can make a case for internally.
Michelle Eatherton (05:29.357)
Hm.
Michelle Eatherton (05:46.764)
Yeah. Well this is I think the unique part of the story with Liminal that is worth worth mentioning and sharing. When our CEO and co-founder called me three years ago, and this is, you know, pre-revenue, pre you know, seed round, anything, his phone call was around partnerships and wanting me to come do partner for Liminal, whatever that was going to look like. He knew it was important, wasn't sure yet what it needed to look like.
And my initial reaction or sort of de facto response back to him was, well, that sounds super interesting. It's very cool what you're building. And once you're going for like series B or maybe even series C, I'll come be like your CPO, your your chief partnerships officer. That sounds really cool. Let's keep in touch. Have a nice day. Not exactly that, but basically. And we got off that call.
Tye DeGrange (06:36.822)
Yeah.
Michelle Eatherton (06:39.413)
And I thought about it and about a week later I called him back and I said, you know, the more I think about the conversation we had, I actually think that partner is really I agree with you, partner is really critical now. We are you are, and soon to be we are, building a company that is going to sit at the intersection of data security and this nascent technology of AI.
There's never, in my view, a stronger case for partner in those areas. The vast majority of security spend runs through the partnership community. Data lives in the partner world. And when you have a nascent technology with everybody screaming at customers, that trusted advisor role that partners play becomes really critical. And so my posture back to him was I would love to join you, but I don't want to come run partner. I actually want to run revenue for the company and I want to be partner led from day one.
I don't want us I don't want anyone in the company to ever really know or care what direct is. And it's a career, you know, maybe selfishly, a career goal of mine to build a SaaS company, what I think is the very biased right way in partner led, channel led from the beginning, because so many SaaS companies, as you all know, get some amount of time down the road, often like five, ten years before they start getting serious about partner. And by that time,
You have to fight so much internally, a product that was never built with partners in mind. Try to explain MSPs to a product team that doesn't understand partner and to think about the architecture of the product 10 years down the road to support MSPs. You've got a sales team that's pretty rooted in the way that they run things. You've potentially hired a CRO that doesn't come from that background. And what an amazing opportunity to build a company from the beginning where no one at the company knows anything different.
And so I think that's what's unique about the liminal story is there was not the only convincing was that conversation with Steve and the implicit trust that he had in me and and the you know the data that I brought to that conversation of why partner was such a great fit there. and then it was, you know, there there was that first point in time building the business, you don't just like
Michelle Eatherton (08:51.103)
Suddenly come out of the box and have partners selling something that you don't even quite know how to sell yet, right? So there was a building period, and during that period it was building the momentum with the rest of the leadership team, with the board, around why we're move we were headed in that direction. So it didn't take a lot to convince the company at large because we made the decision pre-revenue, right? And so making that decision pre-revenue to be channel led, and then really leaned in once we had some of the foundations in place, that was the
Tye DeGrange (09:19.636)
Yes. Yes. I I commend you so much. Like that's one of the int most interesting answers I've heard in a while and it's coming from partners and seeing when it's earlier on it's baked into the DNA of the company versus when it's has to be sort of educated in. It certainly can happen in multiple ways, but I'm really, really impressed and and glad to hear that. I have to ask as a follow-on how often you're seeing that out there, the level at which you
And Steve were able to do that. It sounds like a good collaboration. It sounds like a good understanding level of partnerships and how critical that is to your obviously it's very unique to your vertical, as you said, but how how often do you see that even happening?
Michelle Eatherton (09:58.104)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Eatherton (10:02.699)
No, I don't think you see it very often at all. you know, there are certainly some examples of SaaS companies that have a a, you know, more channel-led approach. I think, you know, look, it like you said, the vertical, the space of technology that we were selling, the intersection between data security and AI, you know, it also probably helps that Steve and I met in the partner organization at AWS. And so while his background was not as deeply rooted in partner, he's always had a strong appreciation for and understands. And so I think
Half the battle when you're a leader in the partnership arena, you're constantly giving 101 level definition. What's a reseller? What do you mean? What do you mean we can't tell them what the price is? You know, you're having these very 101 conversations that you just become almost like numb to. It's just part of your job, is explaining and educating. He required very little of that because he had lived in the space. And then we certainly had a personal.
trust component that I think is is unique and a testament to his hiring out of his entire leadership team, frankly. There's a there's a strong degree of trust of the four leaders at Liminal to know and understand and own our domain spaces and to just be supportive. Always, you know, of course question and dig and and validate, but always have that that trust. So maybe you know, stars aligning to to get that to happen through personal connection, but
hence the reason I wanted to take the swing and move into the role and see if we could do it.
Tye DeGrange (11:29.312)
Love it.
Bringrats, I love it. And y obviously overseeing revenue, looking at sales, when you there's been so much that's exploded in the space, there's a lot of noise. How are you all rising above? What are some of the things that customers are saying that you all, you know, kind of key in on and look to differentiate in your analysis and in your positioning out of curiosity, just because there's you know so much chasing the the the the the game that we're talking about.
Michelle Eatherton (11:59.244)
And are you speaking about AI specifically and cutting through that noise, the hype of AI? Yeah, I think I think what's been unique, especially from a channel perspective, is that it's very consumable and easy to understand what we do. It's easy to very quickly, right now, go to LinkedIn and you'll get into this like echo chain chamber like bubble and feel like an idiot within like five or ten minutes, or feel like you're ridiculously behind, but then you get into
Tye DeGrange (12:02.464)
Yes, yes.
Michelle Eatherton (12:27.667)
Conversation with someone, and you realize there's very few people that are as far ahead as it may seem like is out there on the feeds like LinkedIn and other places. And so I think part of what's been so useful and and helpful to our journey is that we have a very consumable, easy-to-understand product that solves a real problem that customers are asking them for, and they don't need to
Pull in a zillion technical people to describe and you know portray what what we do and how we solve for it. And so we're in this unique, you know, I think window of time of solving a really hard problem. I have all of this PII, PHI, I'm a HIPAA compliant organization. I've got to think about 15 different things. And make no mistake, they do. Liminal's not going to solve, you know, 15 different things for them, but if we can solve a really big piece of it.
Allow them to get ahead of the shadow AI that's happening out the gate in a really elegant, simple, just a SAS single sign-on way. and by the way, it's super cost effective and you get all the models and we give you unlimited tokens. Everybody's talking about token maxing right now. You don't experience that with Liminal. I think there's just this gravitation by the partner community, the partner sellers in the partner community.
to bring something that solves a real pain for customers. So I think we candidly get our unfair share of attention because we are simple, impactful in our messaging, and we've built a solution that's pretty elegant for a hard problem and not overtly technical that they don't feel like they can speak about it.
Tye DeGrange (14:06.774)
This might come from a place of ignorance, but just out of curiosity, or someone able to work with liminal and essentially have like an OAuth login so that whatever AI systems they're utilizing, they can kind of go through the liminal system to ensure that it's HIPAA protected, compliant. H if you don't mind me asking in the weeds, like how easy is it if you if you don't mind me asking?
Michelle Eatherton (14:26.273)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it's super easy. So it's delivered as a SaaS product, meaning we stand up the environment on behalf of the end customer. It runs single tenant architecture. So that's really important to customers in this space. They want logically isolated data and whatnot. So we spin it all up. At this point, it's sub 30 minutes to spin it all up. And yeah, it's just a single sign on, you know, any SAML 2.0 compliant. We give them the URL and they're in. and from there, it looks a lot like, you know, a chat GP.
Interface or Claude's interface, it has that feel with the chat bar, all your models, etc. So from a user's perspective, super easy, but importantly on the administrator side, really easy too, because I think one of the challenges for customers right now is what in the world do I need to do to train my teams around all of this? How am I going to enable everybody on the IT and security teams? And it's all a very simple UI experience on the back end as well. I mean, so in essence, what we're doing is we're we're the UI running atop.
and then we're doing API calls out to all of the downstream models. So you're using our tool and interface and we're doing the tool calls in a secure way out to the downstream provider. It was both pub it could be a public LLM, but they can bring their own models too, bring their own API key. They could custom build something robust and bedrock and deploy it, and that that's as accessible and governed by Liminal as well. So very simple, simple way to to get up and going, get in and get started.
Tye DeGrange (15:53.47)
That's great.
Tye DeGrange (15:58.753)
Very attractive proposition. Out of curiosity are some APIs a little bit more navigatable than others in your experience? And not not that you can share all the details, but I was curious if some are more difficult versus some that are just piece of cake.
Michelle Eatherton (16:13.725)
Mm. No, the I mean the API call is the API call, right? All we need is the API. All of the model providers have AP APIs, and so we're simply generating the API on their behalf for the managed credentials offering that we offer, which is where we give unlimited tokens to five of the big model providers. Or the customer just goes to the particular provider, purchases the API key and just plugs it in. It's it's literally a couple.
copy paste. so it's it's not a matter of the API calls being complex. There's there's really no complexity in that and the accessing of it's just a basic API call out to all the downstream models and agents.
Tye DeGrange (16:53.024)
Yeah, I was just curious if like some of those those are more difficult to play with than others, but I think that that certainly makes sense. It you know, given your stage, you know, you you you're in a very interesting focal point of the business, right? leading revenue. Where do you see kind of like the most important thing operationally right now? Is it pipeline creation? Is it follow through of the of said pipeline? Is it the
messaging, is it the hiring, is it the forecasting, is it process? I know you have so much on your plate, but I'm curious to know like for the stage you're in now versus maybe some of the other stages you've been in, you know, what's what's the big focus for you right now?
Michelle Eatherton (17:25.313)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Eatherton (17:35.384)
Yeah, I feel like my answer to this would be different if you had asked me three months ago, six months ago, a year ago. So we're where we are now, I've been there two and a half years. you know, we we've driven, we're, you know, multi-million ARR, like a in a different phase than when we were trying to cross that first million in ARR, or heck, that first hundred K in ARR, right? Like it's different, different stage, different problems. We we joke internally that we, you know, we had infant problems, toddler problems, and we sort of say we're at that like.
Kind of preschool problems now in terms of different channel motions and how to well nobody at this company knows anything different than partner. Partner is not a uniform word. We have lots of different modalities of partnership, and there are two of us at the company that I would call experts in it. my partner lead and myself, and then varying degrees of exposure to
partner or channel or co-sell, you know, these various things. And so yeah, so I would say operationalizing the different mechanisms and the way that we partner, as you know, a managed service practice is much different than a resell puer play resell motion, which is very different than
Tye DeGrange (18:34.422)
Absolutely.
Michelle Eatherton (18:48.277)
More of a commission-based referral motion, like with the TSD Technology Services Distributor Motion. And by the way, we're also very leaned into our hyperscaler AWS and doing a co-sell motion with them. And so that piece of it is an area that just getting all of our finance operations around all of those things, all the templates straight around how we report out on.
those pieces of it and just everyone internally not messing up and accidentally talking about price when it's a resale deal versus no, you lead price when it's a TSD deal, you know, et cetera. So that's certainly a challenge. the other piece that yes, was quick becoming a problem that I've had the luxury of being able to step back and spend some more time on because we brought in our VP of sales a couple of months ago, which has been amazing. We're hiring out
Tye DeGrange (19:34.454)
Congrats.
Michelle Eatherton (19:35.914)
AEs, and but these are they're all partner AEs. At the end of the day, our our our business is 98% partner sourced at this this point, with close to 90% of the revenue being partner sourced. all that being said, the the early days, right, you don't even know which different pipelines you should be managing, and you don't even have renewals yet, so you don't quite know how you want to manage them, and so.
Being able to dive into the RevOps side of things over the last few months has been very gratifying. We are, you know, grown up of managing three different pipelines paid POC, regular sales, post sales, expansion, etc. So those types of things become critical really quickly because when it's kind of all in one blob of a bucket, the only person that really knows what all that is was me until you know, until now we've got people coming in that that's not sufficient anymore.
To be able to delineate some of that. So it's those are kind of those preschool problems of like, we could probably have kept going the way we were a little bit longer, but the messier it was going to get as we started bringing other folks in. And so taking that step back, we implemented gong, we you know, we're doing different things to get ourselves more.
Tye DeGrange (20:49.566)
I love that. The the huge theme of the pod is obviously learnings and the tests and such that that goes into that. You know, is there certain things that sort of have like landed as experiments or hypotheses experiment learning, you know, either though thus far in your your growth trajectory with liminal or maybe in some of your previous experiences they're like
Wow, this is sort of a notable learning that you think is something worth sharing either in partnerships or just in general that you've observed at some of your great experiences. We'd love to love to hear some of those or a an anecdote that you have that to share with the audience.
Michelle Eatherton (21:27.873)
Yeah, lots of learnings both from a partnerships perspective and a sales perspective, selling into a nascent technology space with a ton of hype. But I'll I'll I'll start with the partnership side. I I knew going into it that it would be really important to think about all of the different avenues of partnership. Kind of I sort of mentally think of them as like jars on a shelf, and that you would sort of pull them down as needed at the right.
time and sort of layer them in at the right time, put them back if they weren't working out. And so I I definitely am a believer in kind of an art and science approach on things. There's some things just you know data driven wise that that make sense to to get started with. And then there's some things in more of the I don't know if this is the right time but something feels right about it. Or there's a particular
you know, relationship within this company that maybe it's a little bit too premature, but we're gonna start nurturing it sooner than than others. And so one of the ones that I knew would be really important for us was the over time we would want to be really mindful of our hyperscaler partnership and and taking advantage of that. And yet we are far from even today I would argue we're far from ready to be like true co-cell ready. I we are we are in the co-cell program. We are
doing all the things, but it was important to me that first year to get our marketplace listings built, to register for the programs, to take advantage of startup and you know AI programs, to leverage it from a branding perspective more than anything in the early days, and have all of those little seeds planted so that when the time came to kind of double down on that motion,
As you probably know and and anyone listening probably knows, if you've worked in the hyperscaler arena, it takes time. You are not compressing that algorithm. You are going to have to go through the cycles of getting all of those pieces in place. And so that was an example of, you know, I I think where you know your medium or long term is going to be there, and it's tempting to kind of keep shelving it. Pull the jar down like halfway. Figure out like what are what are some of the things you can pull from the jar. Maybe put it back up for a little while on the shelf and then come back to it.
Michelle Eatherton (23:47.286)
but that that is something that now where we are, we are meaningfully engaging in COSAL with AWS in a way that I don't think we could have had we not, you know, we we would be a year away from it, whereas now we're actively doing doing some things there. In fact, right before this pod podcast, I just set up a a meeting with a state in the southeast that is all from that AWS relationship because we are part of the that program.
Tye DeGrange (24:04.822)
Nice.
Tye DeGrange (24:16.662)
I love that. It just it also speaks to like the creativity and diversification and and power of what when partners running well and partners run by someone that's done this before knows what it's capable of. It's just there's a lot there. So I really appreciate that. You know, w w when I think about leading revenue and all the all the hats you are wearing and the fact that you're at startup, like how do you and the team decide what not to do?
Michelle Eatherton (24:44.107)
Yeah, that I do think that's one of the hardest pieces of it is having to say no in certain instances. And I think one of the obvious ways is where you're not losing deals or you don't like if it's not if it's not something where you see clear customer signal on, as tempting as it would be, you've you've got to shelve it. or
If it's sometimes it's okay to take bets, but you can't take five bets, right? Like you you have to figure out, and and we we're at the juxtaposition of a couple of those bets right now, and which means we're going to say yes to probably what these are bigger bets. We're gonna say yes to like one of them, and we're we're going to forego another couple. So that forced diligence is super important. one example that we've historically and and still have said.
No to, and it pains me because on a personal level, it's one of the most fun aspects of partnerships, in my opinion. That is the technology partnership side. So deep integrations, even like co-sell go-to-market with i other ISVs. I can think of so many different ideas that all sound really cool, really exciting, and customers will say things here and there, but we've never lost a deal because of it. We've never been told.
Well, if you if you just had this integration into my sim, we would go with you. Or if you did this integration into that. We're just not losing deals on that front yet. And I think it's, you know, that shared busy factor between two ISVs that are both trying to do their own thing and not give perhaps we we aren't ready to give each other enough attention yet. And so that's an example of saying no to something that sometimes keeps me up at night. I would love to be working on.
Technology integrations and deeper ISV alignment, but y you gotta wait for the timing and for the signal.
Tye DeGrange (26:34.846)
Yeah. Amazing, Michelle. I I this has been like chock full of great things and you're you're at a really interesting point in the company history and an exciting growth trajectory. So coming on and sharing your experience and also what you're seeing, you know, in the here and now and obviously the ever exciting AI space, us kind of talking to very similar cohorts is very exciting. So just kind of coming down the home stretch with with some final questions, Samaya.
rapid fire and maybe some personal to get to know you. But I I have to ask, is there an AI tool or something that's not liminal that maybe you're finding like you can't live without or something that's maybe off the beaten path that people are not aware of to share with the audience that you've really enjoyed using or surprised you?
Michelle Eatherton (27:23.371)
Hmm. I think well this is a it's a feature of lots of AI tools out there, including the free personal ones. It's part of Liminal too. And I I will I say this often when I'm speaking with prospects and customers. I'm a very typical representative user of AI. I
I am not part of that echo chamber that is vibe coding on the weekends, and I am still trying to figure out how I use it. I I love it, I use AI every day, but I do not call myself like the most sophisticated user out there. So this might sound elementary to some people, but I think to actually most people, 80% of people, this would be helpful if you're the 20% that's like, or you know, five, let's face it, 1% that's out there vibe coding and doing all the things, maybe ignore this, but
I love the concept of assistance and projects, which I know is something that's been around, but I don't think that people utilize it enough. And we've had it in our platform for a long time. There were a couple that somebody else at the company had built. I have a couple that I've built, but I've gotten really into that motion now of like we all have those five, six, seven, eight repeatable things that we're doing all the time.
stopping myself when I find myself going to do it for like the third time that week or the third time that day, building the assistant. and then it just like it extrapolates the level and quality of output in such a tremendous way. So not a super sophisticated answer, but I think it's something, you know, we tend to just go in and chat with things, especially in the personal accounts. And so leveraging some of those tool slot sets out there that take all that context with and you you
Do the work once to tell it how you want it to perform. It's a very simple thing to do that kind of immediately puts you above that super basic, I'm just chatting, prompting twenty times and and getting better quality output.
Tye DeGrange (29:12.726)
No, it's super helpful and insightful. And it's funny, on an earlier conversation recently, I got a similar answer back. It was less of like this shiny new tool and it's more of like how you're thinking about usage. And that's obviously extremely valuable, especially as these tools like consolidate and we're kind of settling in on whatever. So
Michelle Eatherton (29:25.206)
Hmm.
Michelle Eatherton (29:31.501)
Mm-hmm.
Tye DeGrange (29:36.212)
When you think about like resources and no, this could be even like on the personal front. Is there a book or a pod or something that you just love to recommend people either personally or professionally? It doesn't have to be anything specific.
Michelle Eatherton (29:48.632)
Hmm. I am a huge fan of community. I've always been a part maybe that's why I've always been in partnerships. And so digging into and leaning into communities that you that professionally guide you. I I just can't you know echo enough how much that has been so pivotal to my career, both on a personal and professional front. And so two communities that I'm part of, they're similar in some ways, but they I I relish them both for
Tye DeGrange (29:57.814)
That's
Michelle Eatherton (30:17.995)
different reasons. So there's the partnership leaders community. Ash and the team have built something tremendous there and I'm very involved in that and speaking at Catalyst, their event in a couple of weeks, and and get I give back to that community and yeah, I participate in. It is a great one. So in the ability I talked earlier about these 100 101 level conversations, you just skip all that and go straight to 500 level. It's it's an incredible resource from a partnering perspective. And then
Tye DeGrange (30:28.71)
I'll see you there, hopefully. Yeah, it's a great one.
Michelle Eatherton (30:46.429)
Equally, I've really come to value the pavilion community, Sam Jacobs community. And so, you know, for me, I am far from a traditional sales leader background. I do not have the typical CRO, you know, but I mean, hence my title is chief business officer because I I do a purview over more, you know, more than sales. It's not I'm not like a born and bred traditional background CRO. And so that community and the ability
Tye DeGrange (31:10.432)
Love that.
Michelle Eatherton (31:10.935)
To tap into the RevOps knowledge that's contained within there, the resourcing. And in both of those communities, I've built local community as well as at their, you know, their events. And so I would say getting involved, whatever that looks like for your industry, your you know, certainly if you're in tech, those are both phenomenal organizations to to look at. But that that to me has been that in-person connection building community has been
Tye DeGrange (31:35.594)
I love that. I I think honestly that's like one of the more I that's a that's a great mic drop. It's a great one to end on. And I I just I don't know. I I appreciate you and I I I it's a community I've found a lot of value in and I think it's in some ways highly recommend folks folks do similar. So for folks that wanna learn more and get to know you, reach out, learn more about liminal, where what's the best way?
Michelle Eatherton (31:42.881)
Mm.
Michelle Eatherton (32:01.773)
Yeah, I mean of course LinkedIn is a great way to to find me. I have unique enough last name that I'm pretty easy to easy to find. And certainly checking out what we do at liminal dotai is another great space and of course anything that comes through that website comes to me and my team. So either either place.
Tye DeGrange (32:20.087)
Beautiful. Thank you so much, Michelle. Appreciate you coming on, and it was a great conversation. Thank you. Bye.
Michelle Eatherton (32:24.6)
Yeah, great to talk. Okay. Bye.