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Like a skeleton rising from the dead, Jen’s ex Billy visits town to bring some darkness to Capeside in season 1 episode 8: Boyfriend, also known as Escape from New York.
Non-Dawson Recommendations:
Mal - Dressed: The History of Fashion
Stella - Ben Folds (Ben Folds Five, Whatever and Ever Amen, and Rockin’ the Suburbs)
James - King Gizzard & The Lizard Wizard (Fishing for Fishies) / @Capeside20
Cody - The Last of Us Franchise
You can find us online @freaksandcreekspod on instagram or at our website, https://www.freaksandcreeks.com, and you can get in touch with us at show@freaksandcreeks.com.
A Dawson's Creek Rewatch Podcast for those who missed the boat!
Freaks & Creeks: a Dawson's Creek Podcast dives into each episode of the hit '90s TV show Dawson's Creek with a fresh perspective. Join Cody, Stella, Mal and James as they set sail through turbulent waters determined to understand this iconic teen drama’s place in the modern television zeitgeist.
Cody: Welcome to Freaks and creeks at, a Dawson's Creek podcast. The show where four millennials who missed the boat 25 years ago take the dive for the first time. Join us as we experience the series with a fresh perspective. Effective week a week. And see if our adolescent experiences match up with Dawson and the gang. My name is Cody.
Stella: I'm Stella.
Mallory: I'm Mallory.
James: And I am James. Before we get started, let's check in with Capeside correspondence for the news of the week.
Cody: Yeah, we got a little tweet from front of the show, Heather, who shouted us out and said, I need more people to follow me on this chaotic journey. Thank you Heather. Let's get people into the show. You're the best. And also, thank you so much, every listener out there who rated us on Spotify, we have already at the time of this recording, have received twelve ratings in the last week and we have an average rating of 4.7. That's all due to you. Thank you so much, various listeners.
James: Yeah, thank you all. We went from not being rated on the show or on that platform at all to now having a rating. It's going to help people find the show. So you are helping and if you haven't rated us out there, go ahead and do it now. It's super easy. But with that out of the way, this week we are going to be talking about season one, episode eight, boyfriend, also known as Escape from New York, which I guess it's really quickly, this isn't something we haven't really talked about too much, um, in the show so far. But in season one they actually had these alternate titles which came out when they initially aired the show and all of them are referential to some kind of film. In this case, the film that they're referencing is Escape from New York. Um, which I think is kind of fun. Um, this episode was released on episode ten, episode 10th. It was really my favorite month. It, uh, was released on March 10. And the synopsis is Jen's old boyfriend arrives unexpectedly and Dawson's parents struggle with their relationship. It's written by John Harmon Feldman and Dana Barrada and directed by Michael Fields. And this episode really just has a little bit of everything. It's got incredible needle drops. I thought the music in this episode was amazing. Probably the best music we've had so far. It's got 90s teen life documentary footage. I'm pretty sure every scene in this show is straight out of real life. Um, there's a character that's somehow less likable than Pacey. I didn't think that was possible. Dawson gets his heart broken. Absolutely amazing. And then the emergence of Pacey as an actual likable character, I don't know. What did you guys think about this episode?
Mallory: I really enjoyed this episode. Um, we are finally getting some more character development for Pacey. Um, I'm beginning to understand where his arc might be going and why people like him so much. Um, also I was relistening to our episode six Baby um, the other day and we were very much anticipating Joey being cool anti Joey. Well we were so wrong because we're getting petulant and angsty. Anti Joey. Um, that was kind of funny. Uh, it is also pretty accurate considering she's only in high school and she's living in a small house with the newborn. I think our hopes were a little too high there.
James: Yeah.
Mallory: Um, also another thing I thought was fun was the costume department ah, really upped their game with the styles that the male characters are wearing in this episode. So I'm excited to talk about that. Um, there are lots of stylish cozy sweaters, lots of leather, some corduroy, lots of leather.
James: Yeah, call me a leather daddy.
Stella: Um, I did not love this episode. I thought it was kind of a dead um, up until the last ten minutes I was like pretty into it and I did love seeing Pacey become more like a bull slash I might be in love with Pacey.
Mallory: Interesting. I can talk about that later.
Cody: Yeah I wanted to rewind a little bit because the last episode that we watched was, uh, called Detentionbreakfast Club. The Breakfast Club thing makes sense because it's in reference to that. But this being called Escape from New York, uh, if you've seen that John Carpenter movie, the post apocalyptic, uh, gang, uh, murder movie where people are placed on Manhattan, uh, and it's a futuristic prison. Uh, yeah, it does not have anything to do with this and I wonder if they dropped doing that from season one because the Canadian teen drama show Darassy named all their episodes after 80s songs. So I wonder if Dawson's Creek was like, yeah, we're just going to do the exact same thing but for movies.
Mallory: And then realize bad idea, it doesn't make sense.
James: Yeah.
Cody: I just want to say I love this episode. This is like another banger after bang after banger. But this felt uh, the most fleshed out for these characters and it seemed like their beats made sense. People have their own agency and I think my problem up to this episode is that everyone exists for Dawson's development and that development went nowhere. He would get challenges but never amounted to anything. It was just for the sake of having something happen on the show. Whereas this, it seemed like everyone is living their own lives and they actually had things that, um, made them who they were instead of just building up Dawson. So I'm super on board with this. I feel like this episode actually made me a fan of Dawson's Creek whereas before that I was just like, yeah, this is a stupid show with funny hair.
James: Were you about to say something?
Stella: Yeah, I was just wondering if we, um, know if there's any Canadian connection with Dawson's Creek because we were with my family the other day, and my cousin thought that this was a Canadian show. And then the other song was from a Canadian artist, Jan Arden. Yeah, uh, I didn't think it was a Canadian show. I mean, it was filmed in North Carolina, right? M, so yeah, I don't know why.
James: He there seems to be a thread there and I don't know what the connective tissue is, but I agree, there's something if somebody could explain it to us, please let us know. Is one of the actors secretly Canadian? Like, very proudly Canadian?
Mallory: Maybe we'll do some research and get back to you on next week's Capeside Court.
James: Listen in.
Cody: Busy Phillips is Canadian, right?
James: Is she not? She could be.
Cody: She's not in the show yet, but I know she comes on later. And I know Freaks and Geeks, which is our namesake. Freaks, uh, and Geeks, I believe, was a Canadian production because there's a ton of Canadians in that show currently.
James: Busy Phillips is an American actress.
Cody: Okay, well, never mind.
James: Bang.
Mallory: We'll look into it.
James: We'll figure it out.
Cody: Let's rewind to do another, uh, case like correspondence.
James: Correct.
Cody: I am a moron.
James: Nobody's a moron here, Cody.
Cody: Okay? I'm the smartest man alive.
James: Do you guys know what the number one song on the US. Pop charts was in the week of March 10, 1998?
Cody: Please say it's, damn it. By blink 180.
James: I wish it was actually came out the year before, which blew my mind. When that song comes up in this episode, I was like, holy fuck. Um, any guesses?
Stella: 1998.
James: M march 10, 1998. That week. It's a very recognizable song and you all will scream when you find out.
Cody: M. Have we already talked about belief by share? Was that a number one?
James: It is, but not yet.
Stella: Trying to think about when Brittany and NSYNC were big, I feel like, interesting.
James: That's getting a little bit closer. Listeners, uh, at home, go ahead and shout it into your phones right now. We'll wait. It is getting jiggy with it. Oh my gosh. Yeah, right?
Mallory: Never heard that song.
Cody: I wonder why.
James: I just thought that was funny. Um, we haven't revisited this in a long time and it's because the information hasn't really changed. But the top film of this week is also Titanic, which was the top film on the pilot episode release date. It's been the top film for almost the entire year at this point in time in 1998. But I do believe that soon we are going to be having that up ended in a new movie, is going to be on the top of the box office charts. So keep an eye out or ear.
Cody: Man, I can't wait to find out what finally toppled Titanic at the buying office. I know Titanic was number one for three or four straight months, man.
James: Like Christmas to April.
Cody: Unreal.
Stella: James, what did you think of this episode?
James: I loved this episode. Um, I definitely thought that there were moments that were not the best. I kind of agree with you. Like at first I was like, oh, this is kind of a dud. Um, there wasn't a whole lot going on in the beginning that really gripped me but once we got to the house party scene, I feel like that is literally all we have been asking for from this show is to see these characters interacting with their peers and interacting in a noncontrived way. We're actually seeing these characters interact with real people. That said, um, what really did this episode in for me was the development of Pacey as a likable character. Um, I'm coming around on them. I don't know if what we're all going to say when we get there. I kind of want to be surprised when we get to that discussion but, um, yeah, I think that, um, for anybody who has been disappointed in all the Pacey hate that we've been spewing out so far, maybe things will start to change. I don't know. We'll see.
Cody: I'm really excited to hear from all of our perspectives when the moment was that we fell in love with people because I feel like we're all going to have a different moment.
James: Totally is where we fell.
Cody: I certainly know what mine is.
James: Me too.
Cody: Also, just, uh, going back earlier to what I said about all these characters feeling like they have an agency, it's funny too, because Billy, who I know we're going to have a lot to say about, does, uh, not even like he seems like a character that would have been like from four episodes ago. He clearly is just an antagonist and there's nothing else there. He is a shell of a person. He's only there to create chaos. Whereas Abbey Morgan from the last episode seemed like a real character while also being an antagonist. At least her mustache twirling had some charisma and she was chewing scenery. Whereas Billy is just there to be, uh, a stain on everybody's lives and.
James: Look cool and look super cool. What a cool guy. Anybody have any final thoughts before we get into the scene by scene? I'm so excited to talk about this episode.
Mallory: Let's get into it.
James: Let's do it.
Cody: Cody as Dolphin exhausts all possible channels from his basic cable lineup, joey pops into his room ready to vent about the screams of her freshly born nephew keeping her up every night. Dawson offers a slumber party and Joey accepts. She notices he's watching an old Gary Cooper movie and complains that he's boring. To which Dawson expresses admiration for his quote unquote nice guy vibes, rightfully putting Joey right to sleep.
Stella: Um, I guess in every opening scene Joey and Dawson have been there together so this is like the first time that wasn't the case. Joey came in but it was weird to see Dawson by himself going through the channels.
James: I see.
Mallory: It was fun to hear his comments as you flipped through each one.
James: What did you all think about him getting to the porn porn transaction? What did you all think about that? I have a lot of thoughts on that. But basically what happens, he gets this porn channel. He looks confused. He looks genuinely confused. As if he's like, what's happening here? You can hear vague sexual sounds like, uh, it's obvious to anybody who has seen porn that it's porn. But for some reason Dawson seems a little bit confused. And then he flips the channel disinterested to whatever comes up next. And that's when Joey comes in. What did you all think about that little moment?
Stella: My impression was I thought he said adult channel.
Mallory: He said, quote, adult movie channel. Scrambled. And then he took a moment to try to make something out of the scramble.
Stella: Yeah, I thought he had a little smile on his face and was trying to look like he tilted his head and was trying to figure out if he could make any sense of what was happening in this.
Mallory: And then he kind of gave up on it.
Cody: Yeah. Those wheels turning were him being like, can I jerk off to fuzzy nipples? And he decided, no, I can't.
James: Uh, yes. Wow, I completely misread that. I was just like, he just looks confused. And then he's moving on to the next thing.
Mallory: You could imagine if he had done that and Joey walked.
James: Yeah, that's, uh, where I kind of thought it was going to go. I had this feeling that somebody's going to walk in on him in this moment. Whoever it's going to be, I'm not sure. And when it got to that point, I was like, it's either Joey or it's his mom walking in on him. And then neither of those things come true. So I'm just wrong. First time in my life. I'm so sorry.
Cody: Does anyone want to roleplay what that scene would have been like if Joey had walked in while I was out there? I scrambled porn.
James: Oh God.
Cody: I imagine Joey would say something like, at least it's not the Et doll again.
James: Wow, speaking of that Et doll, that thing is fucking creepy.
Mallory: Looking at the collector's item. I, um, do have something to say about Joey here. I, ah, thought the makeup department went the extra mile with her under dark under eye circles. They gave her some tired eyes.
Cody: She looks like she's wearing death paint. Like a black metal.
James: Yes. There are several scenes in this episode where either they kept her up for 48 hours before filming, which you never know, or they did a really good job in the makeup department because she just looks exhausted and she nails the acting exhausted too. I thought this was like a standout Joey episode, Secret Star.
Cody: I wonder if she's a method actor. Was she getting drunk, uh, for this performance? Was she staying up all night? Performance who knows? I just want to say that I love right off the bat we know Dawson has an issue with his naivete about life and relationships but this solidified. It where we're really getting into the nittygritty of nice guy. Just go on reddit nice guy and just see how many people fit the mold of this idea of like women need to want to be with me because I'm a nice guy. It's a very toxic masculine trait and.
Mallory: That the nice guy finishes last.
Cody: Yes, it's grotesque and I, ah, love like they're really spelling it out for us. That made me really appreciate it. So from here on out, another thing.
Mallory: I noticed, um, for Joey was in the first scene we see her fall asleep. She's also falling asleep in the last scene, of course for a different reason but it's kind of the bookend, ah, sets up what happens throughout the episode.
Cody: Oh, you know what? Uh, speaking, uh, of book ending with sequences, uh, it makes me think we have to mention David Lynch every episode of the show for whatever reason. And I think a lot of scenes in David Lynch movies are bookended by people falling asleep to reinforce that dream like quality of those films, uh, that he makes. And what if this entire episode was a dream from Joey? She falls asleep at the beginning. It all happens. We're really in her subconscious. That's why these characters are really like kind of working out in a way that she likes and then at the end she wakes up I don't know.
Mallory: She wakes up in Dawson single.
Cody: Yeah.
James: There you go. True. Or does she? Because if this is all a dream then maybe they didn't ever actually break up.
Cody: Uh, I have the Monica Baluci dream again.
James: Go to the Fairfax airport and look for the blue rose. Um, that's my David Lynch impersonation, everybody. Thank you.
Cody: We should do an episode where we only do David Lynn voices from start to finish. Welcome to Freaks and Creek. While Dawson races out of the door for school mitch and Gail, aka. Mr. And Mrs. Manmy trade awkward glances and fail at small talk mentioning therapy and their progress all in reference to them beginning to heal from gayle's affair with co anchor Bob.
Stella: Anyone else think it was weird when Mitch asks Dawson how's school going?
James: Yes.
Mallory: Yeah, he said it was just a little forced.
Stella: Yeah. They've never had a conversation before.
Cody: Totally.
Mallory: To me it felt like he's feeling awkward with Gail in their conversation so he's forcing, uh oh, hey, let me get out of this dawson, how are you doing? Kind of thing. Yeah. Deflecting.
James: Yeah. But it did kind of make it feel like they've never had a conversation before outside the ones we've seen. And they regularly forget that they have a son who's going to school. Right. David. No. Um, david. No, I just said that.
Cody: Shit.
James: Uh, David.
Cody: Fuck. Dawson it is weird that we haven't really established many relationship dynamics in the show with Dawson's parents and Dawson. Really all we've gotten is that, uh, mannequin kissing scene, uh, with Mitch. The only stuff that with Gail and Dawson is just Dawson pointing out that he knows about their affair. I guess the only thing they can really lean on is we would have either gotten Mitch screaming about how's school going or Mitch screaming about how's the dancing lip move. Is that working out for you?
James: Do you guys think that we are going to get a divorce storyline here?
Cody: Absolutely.
James: You think it's hard to get divorced?
Mallory: I don't know. I feel like they might get through it. At the rate that the show goes, things don't last very long so I feel like maybe this is a passing thing and they get through it. But it was also interesting to hear that the kelp is still kicking his idea.
James: I wonder where he's going to show them. He destroyed the model.
Cody: He'll paint a picture with his ideas.
James: Yeah, I thought this was very uncomfortable. I, um, felt bad for them. I felt bad for everybody involved. Dawson is having to witness this and hear this. As a child of divorce, um, we never really had knock down, drag out fights and we kids didn't really know what was going on. But I definitely identified that feeling of tension that was in the air in that household in Dawson. I mean, he says he's running late but he's clearly also just making an excuse to get out of there. He doesn't want to be in that moment. That's my reading because as soon as he gets past that picture frame cut out over that he takes a pause there and it's just like he takes a deep breath. So it felt painful. It felt uncomfortable. Um, and yes, sad moment. In the Leary house, pacey expresses his.
Cody: Distaste for Capeside's lack of thrills to a houseless person before getting nearly run over by a big dumb car. Billy, the man behind the big dumb car asks for directions to Capeside High. Pacey gives him those directions but offers to jump in to navigate to which Billy Tokyo drifts away in a flat.
Mallory: That's something I noticed. I'm not sure if it's a houses person. My read was that Pacey uh. Is talking to a fisherman who probably has been fishing since maybe two or three a um. M. He's had his whole work day and he's cracking a beer at five because he's wearing. If you look at what he's wearing. He.
James: Uh.
Mallory: Has waiters on. He's got fisherman's cap. His tackle bag next to him and he's like one of those townies that Pace is just like chilling with before school.
James: I have a thought on this as well. I uh, too do not think this is a houseless individual or the town drunk. I believe what we are seeing is evidence of an aquatic based threat to Capeside. This man is clearly drinking. He's had a long night. A long morning. You know why? Because he has been fighting Merman and Kraken on the waters of Capeside. And he just has to dull the horrors that he sees. Very lovecraftian. He just has to dull those horrors. And the only way to do it booze. And talking to Pacey, because who doesn't want to talk to Pacey? I mean, he's so cool. So that's what I think it goes.
Cody: Along with the theme of self medicating in this episode. Joey is doing it. And then also the monster killers have to do it too.
James: It's the only way through, apparently, in Capeside.
Stella: I, um, think we've kind of established that the show or in the first scene will always hit us really hard in the head with like, this is the theme of this episode. Um, but it felt like they were really doing that here, too, with Pacey being like, this place is so boring. Will anything ever happen to this card?
Mallory: Okay, perfect timing.
Stella: Annoying.
Mallory: Pacey is the one that kind of introduces Billy. He's the first person that we get an interaction with, him and Billy.
Cody: Would this be considered a record scratch moment? You're probably wondering where I've been.
James: Oh, yeah, it definitely feels like it. Um, I'm curious with my fashion aficionado friends here, stella and Mel m, what did you think of Billy's? Cool.
Mallory: Okay. I was going to talk about Paisy's first, but I'm asking thoughts about Billy. Um, yeah, so leather jacket. He had a paisley shaped pattern, um, 70s style shirt with a color. It's called the Barrymore collar.
James: And so flared out, it's kind of.
Stella: Like buttoned down a little bit.
Mallory: Yeah, button down. So that big 70s collar is actually popularized, uh, by Drew Barrymore's grandfather in the then was reintroduced in the 70s.
James: Cool. I didn't know that.
Mallory: Yeah, he wore that apparently a lot. Um, you think of the 70s?
James: Totally.
Mallory: Yeah. Kind of like that Greaser look, too.
James: Well, also just the lapels over the jacket is such an iconic 70s in my opinion.
Mallory: Totally.
James: Sure. It's interesting that it was originated earlier, but I can't even imagine what that looks like in the 30s or 40s. But in the 70s, if I even imagine it, I'm seeing flare legs or bell bottoms and a shirt with the lapels over a jacket.
Mallory: The, uh, makeup department also made Billy look more rough with some eyeliner.
Cody: What do you think that they were.
James: Trying to go for with his look? Because it's somewhere between, like Greaser, West Side Story.
Mallory: Bad boy.
James: Bad boy. But then the 70s collar makes it also feel like somebody's dad just showed up.
Cody: I think it was just the style of them. Yeah, I remember, uh, I'm trying to think of late 90s weezer music videos. That was the style. Everyone dressed kind of like that 1970s punk, uh, if that's even what you're saying. I don't know. Not the Weezer is a cool band, but that seems like to be the style of that day. He was just like a cool dude.
Mallory: Billy also mentioned, uh, when he was talking to Pacey he said something about Captain Ahab which in reference to the person he was sitting on the bench next to, that's a Moby Dick character who is the captain of the whaling ship in Moby Dicks. Another argument that he's a fisherman.
James: Well, I think he's definitely he's wearing waiters. Yeah, definitely a fisherman.
Cody: Things are chaotic at the Joey house as, uh, a soaking wet Joey pleads with Bodie that she needs the bathroom to get ready. Betsy assures Joey and the viewers at home that this will all be better.
James: Soon in a few years.
Mallory: This is our first introduction to the baby name. Did anyone catch it? Yeah, I think this is the first time we've heard that.
Stella: Yeah, I think so too. Um, two questions. One, is he circumcised?
Mallory: Good question.
Stella: Yeah, never got an answer to that. Um, but so are we supposed to think that the baby now has Joey's room?
Mallory: I was wondering the same thing. Did they room or was she kicked out of her room?
Stella: Yeah, because she was like, this is my dresser and then later we see Dawson put her to sleep on the couch so I wasn't sure if that meant she doesn't have a bed anymore.
Mallory: Yeah, I also thought it was a funny way to put bodies in the episode without him actually being in the episode.
James: Yes. My kind of thinking is that they put the baby in Joey's room and she normally could sleep in there if she wanted to, but why would she? You know what I mean? So she probably chooses not to sleep in there. Um, but yeah. What a chaotic house this has now become. It makes me wonder if we're going to see Joey move out young, move in with Dawson, something like that because this is I can only imagine how hard would it be to not only she also has a job, so she's got school, she's got a job and now she has a baby in her room that she is basically taking care of whenever she is available. I mean, it doesn't seem tenable obnoxious.
Cody: Also, I just thought about this. She's soaking wet and my first couple of watches I'm thinking, oh, it's because she took a shower but needs to get back into the bathroom to get ready. But the night before she had slept in Dawson. So do you think she's stopping wet because she was growing back home?
James: Interesting. That's a good idea.
Cody: Again, in that pilot she's wet from start to finish. I love that idea. At Capeside High, Dawson tells Joey over a quick study such that things with Jen are going okay, but no one's convinced. Jen turns the corner giving Dawson his in to invite her on a bowling day. Just as the stars felt like they were aligning once again, big dumb car driver Billy shows up. Jen tells Dawson she'll catch up with them later and goes to Billy and we learn that he's the boy she was caught sleeping with in her parents bed, which led her to be sent to Capeside to live with her grandparents. She rightfully accosts him for being there and he grossly asks her for us much. While Jen says she isn't the same person anymore, he agrees to leave with him to go for a ride. Dawson, who's watching from the other end of the hall, is interrupted by Cliff, who not only asks if he's seen Jen around, but asks if she has a boyfriend, being the all around awesome guy that he as. Cliff invites both Jen and Jen's boyfriend Dawson to his house party that Saturday.
Mallory: I loved seeing Dawson help Joey study. I thought that was like a cute, genuine friendship moment there on the steps. It's fun.
James: Yeah, I like the tutoring moment. It made me miss being in a language class, to be honest.
Cody: Especially like early when it's your first language class and you're learning, um, ola and Kamua stop, you feel brilliant.
Mallory: When Dawson said he wished they'd teach some more useful phrases, you just like hit the nail on the head. They're always like ridiculous phrases.
James: My uncle's bicycle is at the library. Isn't that what he asked Joey to translate? I really liked this scene. It felt like they had such good chemistry in this moment when they're playing off of each other. I didn't cap the audio or I didn't include the audio here, but the moment, uh, when Joey asks how Jen is doing, how things are doing with Jen and Dawson's, like, things are good. Focus. It felt good. It felt like a really well acted scene until Jen shows up and then it just gets really weird and awkward because of the direction. I feel like Joey just lingering in the background.
Mallory: Ignoring her again.
James: Yes. Very odd. Don't blame her though. After their last interaction, I would not fucking blame her.
Mallory: Uh, Dawson's. Best. Let's talk about the, um, denim shirt and the vest. I think this is a contrast to the bad boy look. So this is like the nice guy look also made him look like a writer or like a teacher or a bible salesman.
James: It felt like you're right. It is playing off. They're playing him off of Billy. It's basically like, let's make one character wear all white with blonde hair and one character wear all black with black hair. It was like that level of binary, right?
Mallory: And Jen commented on it too. Nice best. So they point that out.
James: How old did you guys think Billy was?
Stella: I was going to ask the same question.
Mallory: Uh, good question.
Stella: Did Jen say that she had things with older guys in the previous okay, I wasn't sure if this was supposed. To be like an old one of them maybe.
Mallory: But she did set him apart from the other guys that she's been with her. I don't know if he's one of the older guys or if he happens to be the same age.
Cody: I imagine in the world of the show, I imagine you're supposed to be like 21, maybe older. But the actor is like 45.
Mallory: Mhm.
James: Yeah, I think it's also because we're in 2022 and nobody fucking dresses like that. But the way they dressed him mixed with his chest hair, it's like he's got a fucking garden of chest hair just in bloom right now because it's like looking at my dad. Honestly, I was very confused. I know that there are some teenagers who are very uh, ahead of their time. Is that the word? I'll take it. But he didn't strike me as that. So I think I agree with you, Cody. He's probably like just out of high school and that's why he can just take the four hour drive or as he called it, ride into Capeside.
Mallory: I noticed that he called her Jenny.
James: Yes.
Mallory: So Billy and Jenny, you know, seems like kind of a more intimate m way to reference to refer to her.
Cody: Like they had instead of William and Jennifer, right?
Mallory: Well, yeah, no one calls her Jenny in Capeside. So it's something that she left behind maybe.
James: I thought that was a nice little detail, but it also felt which is maybe how it was supposed to feel. Like who the fuck is Jenny? It felt like really different, which is exactly what they were going for. She was a different person in New York. Mhm. That's why this guy is here to tell us all about that.
Stella: Yeah, I was just kind of like, why are you showing up now? She's been gone for at least a few months. Mhm, so it just felt like I think Cody said that seems like something he would have been introduced like a few episodes ago or something. Um, yeah, I just thought it was like a weird way.
James: Came out of left field for sure.
Mallory: Especially considering he references her being the love I'm the love of your life. Ah, seems like it was pretty serious.
Cody: He's not a real character. No, he's just a chaotically evil entity that just showed up for no reason.
James: He's another demon from hell. What if he's um in the Marvel Comics universe, there is hell.
Cody: Writer ghostwriter. Ghostwriter.
James: Thank you. The nic cagefield. This is the only way I know it. Um, and he is a demon from hell who rides around on a motorcycle. And he wears a leather jacket and he uses a chain, a flaming chain as a weapon. Now I feel like Billy is Ghost Rider pre motorcycle accident that kills him because he already is obsessed with motorcycle culture. He's got the leather jacket he calls everything go for a ride. Even when he's driving around I bet you he says he's going to go ride a movie. When he's talking about watching a movie, he's obsessed with it.
Cody: Again, shout out to everyone that's been giving us really nice reviews on the Internet. But I think after we're calling out nice guy culture and we've called out Incels. And now we're bringing up Marvel, we're.
James: Going to get review bombs. Sorry, everybody.
Cody: Oh, uh, I just want to say again, Cliff yes. Love Cliff. Love fucking Cliff. Dude. He's so nice. Not only is he not a bad person by asking if Jen had a boyfriend and he was just like, oh.
James: Cool, you're dating her.
Cody: All right, cool. You guys want to come to my party?
James: Like, he extended his vision.
Mallory: He didn't look surprised, though. Yeah, come on.
Stella: I don't know. And the way that he asked Austin to go, he was like, and you can come, too.
James: I think Clinton knows what he's doing here. I think you're playing a little dumb.
Stella: Um, here.
James: He knows what he's calling and doing.
Cody: Trap.
Mallory: I love his, um, sweater multicolored. It was cool.
Cody: That just looks like Superman to me. So anything that he does or says, I'm just like, yeah, Cliff's great.
James: He is great. And I thought it was interesting that he invites them to a party that he's apparently not at. I don't think he might be at.
Mallory: The house, but we never see him.
James: It's like, hey, you guys want to come over? I'm not going to be there, but if you want to track the place, please do.
Cody: Well, he must be indoors because we never see what's going on in there.
James: Yeah, I have this clip. I just wanted to play it really quick. It is exactly what we're talking about. It's Cliff, it's Dawson, and it's worth just listening to really quick.
Cody: And one other thing.
James: I don't know if you can help me with it. Jen doesn't have a boyfriend, does she? Um, yeah, he does. Me.
Cody: Really?
James: Yeah. That's terrific, man. I just love that.
Mallory: Really?
Cody: Wait a minute. Can we listen to that again? I heard a seagull.
Mallory: What?
Cody: I mean, one other thing.
James: I don't know if you could yeah, that's terrific.
Mallory: There's a bird.
James: There's a bird in the high school. That's interesting. That's weird.
Stella: Good cat, huh?
Cody: I swear I heard another one that was just like the typical I wonder if they just have like, an audio track and the guy is just like, whatever's.
James: That ambience. Uh, sound pad. We just need to bed this scene, okay? Uh, it's outdoor. Whatever. Okay.
Cody: All doors are open in Capeside.
James: Well, I mean, if they let Billy just walk into school, I'm sure they just let birds come to they just.
Mallory: Let strangers walk into school.
James: Ninety s. I know.
Mallory: Back in the 90s, they didn't give a shit.
James: You look like a bad person who's not here for school. You look like you're here to do no good. Come on, in want to walk the halls.
Cody: Uh, listeners that are not from the United States, I just want to let you know, before 911, it was the Wild West, baby. You could do whatever you wanted.
James: Anybody remember going to the airport? Not for a flight, but just to get to walk the terminal to pick up a family member or somebody that was coming in, what, a different time that was. We, uh, used to go to the airport in Albuquerque, where my family is from. And we would go to the airport to get lunch at one of the restaurants that was in the airport because it was kind of nearby where my grandparents live. What the fuck? Why you don't do that these days?
Cody: Anyway, back at the Manmade Larry household, gail tries to come up with some fun date ideas, as her therapist has suggested trying new things together. Mitch, in the coldest way imaginable suggests swinging or spouse whopping. When Gayle asks when she'll stop being punched, mitch, in a dramatic fashion, says, when it stops hurting.
Stella: But initially he says, uh, playing hide the naked wife.
Mallory: Like something about being my naked wife.
James: Playing hide the yeah.
Cody: What do you think comes up?
Mallory: Yeah, hide the chapstick, definitely.
James: But chapstick didn't pay for this episode. So they're like, no, we're not giving them that free promo. I think it's hide the pickle, because I know that is a common euphemism for sex.
Cody: Go, Portland.
James: Pickles yeah.
Stella: I was really confused. My first thought was just penis.
Mallory: When.
James: I stopped seeing my naked wife play hide the penis.
Cody: Hide the penis. Classic game.
James: Um, this is the beginnings of the Leary's slutshaming their partners. It starts off here with Mr. Manmeet, um, talking about spouse swapping and swinging and how that might be more to Gail's, uh, liking. And Dawson does the same thing later on when he's talking to Jen and Billy. And god, it's just hard to watch this kind of shit because you know how commonplace this is in so many people's relationships when they have a disagreement. And it was so uncomfortable to watch. I really, really, really did not like it. And, uh, yes. Yucky.
Cody: Not that I think it's good that they're slut shaming. I don't like this from, uh, a writing perspective. Uh, what I do like about this is that they've kind of taken a few steps back from the first three or four episodes where the only thing we knew about the Learies is that they fuck like it was the only thing they talked about. And so now it's interesting that they're like, okay, we realized maybe we were coming in way too hot with that, and now we're going to actually use that for something different. It's unfortunate that it's shame that's what they're landing on, but it makes sense for these characters to now use that to weaponize totally. Outside Jen's place, Billy explains that he's far too exhausted to go all the way back home to New York and needs to stay in Capeside. As the visibly upset Dawson joins them, jen takes him aside and explains who Billy truly is and then asks if it would be okay for Billy to stay with him for a night, reassuring him that they're just old friends. Dawson reluctantly agrees.
Mallory: So weird.
James: So weird.
Mallory: Like, I understand why Jen can't host him. Yeah, but why Dawson? Why not Pacey or just someone else? Why can't she ask another friend?
Cody: Why does she feel I mean, a.
Mallory: Story, I get it, of course it's writing.
James: Uh, well, we know why she feels like she has to take care of him and give him an option here, but why? You don't owe this fucking guy anything.
Cody: I'm trying to think of the other options that would be available to him in Capeside. So, like, Pacey I imagine, is an out because of his cop family and you're not going to make stranger in this house, right? Um, then where Joey has a chaotic house and Jen doesn't have any other friends so it's like Graham is not.
Mallory: Going to let that happen.
James: I think what they should have done is just dressed him up in a hospital gown, rolled Gramps out in the backyard for a little while. He's not going to know the difference and then put him m in the hospital bed. Right.
Mallory: She should have just told him you're not too tired to drive 4 hours back.
James: I'm sorry you made the decision to come here unannounced without discussing it.
Mallory: I, uh, thought it was, uh, ridiculous that she told Billy everything about her in Dawson. Without asking Dawson first or without talking to Dawson first? She told him that. Oh, I told him everything about us.
James: Okay, I don't think she did.
Mallory: She's just saying that. You think she's just telling Dawson that?
James: I bet that she told him that maybe she has a boyfriend but I don't think that there's m much actually been discussed, but who knows? Yet again, this show and it's strange jumps in time. Is this after school? Because how is Dawson here? Wasn't he just in the hallway at school? Now he's at home. So did they skip school and now Dawson's walking back home?
Mallory: I think this is like right after school.
James: Yeah, uh, all I'm saying is we have no idea how much time has elapsed here.
Cody: Yeah, right.
Mallory: She went on the ride with Billy and then probably no. I think then like. Went back to class or all day. Whatever and then now it's the end of school and she's back trying to.
Cody: I guess this could have been a week after. I guess when this takes place. I don't know if it's a sequence or another. But it looks like the sun is setting for no reason. I mean, whatever. I mean, I know the constraints of shooting a television show, especially outside, is very difficult but uh, yeah, sometimes it's just very confusing on the show.
James: I just can't believe that Jen would ask Dawson this. I understand that she doesn't have any other options and let's just couch this writing convenience. We understand that. I don't believe that she would do this. I really don't.
Stella: Yeah, it seems really out of character for her. I feel like she knows that Dawson wouldn't react well to that.
Mallory: Exactly.
James: Uh, she knows that Dawson is like, borderline jealous of everybody and everything. He's obsessed with sex and physical intimacy and he is really worried about where he stands with Jen. That has been like, the three common themes in their relationship. So why would she be like, oh, hey, my ex boyfriend, you know, the one that I told you about that I got caught having sex with in my parents bed. Yeah, he needs a place to stay and I was thinking your place would be the perfect place because it's right next door to me.
Mallory: Is she testing him?
Stella: I don't know, but okay. Also, it all happened so quickly. It was such a quick conversation where she was like, hey, can you do this thing? And then he just hands over the bat. At least have a longer conversation, be like, yeah, I know this is a really weird situation, um, but could you like, please help me out? But she was like, almost like he needs a favor.
Mallory: Like, it was kind of manipulative a little bit.
Cody: The beats are quick, I'll give it that, and it's very awkward. But the thing that I focused so much more m like, out of anything else in this episode was Jen pleading with Dawson. Hey, can you just believe what I'm saying? That's all she asks this entire episode. Hey, believe me when I tell you this. Can you please believe me when I say this? Hey, I told him this. Please believe me. And the entire time Dawson does not acknowledge this, he goes fucked out. What about my feelings? Why don't you respect me? Why don't you respect what I feel like? And it's like, yeah, I mean, this is very over the top and it is like, the convenience of the writing. And I would be more on your side when it's talking about how ridiculous it is for someone like Dawson to be put through this situation, but just the fact that Jen is just like, hey, I know how weird this is. I know that you know about Billy and why I'm here because of Billy, but listen to me when I say there's nothing between us and I am, um, with you, Dawson, so believe me. And he's the one that makes the choice to be angry and anxious about it. So I take her side on that. But yes, it is very absurd. Not on any planet, at least in this universe would this ever be normal or okay, it's very absurd.
James: Yeah, I don't know, I feel like in this moment even Jen doesn't know what she's doing here. I don't know. What we're seeing is somebody's ex walking back into their life and then they don't know how to handle these emotions that are present within them. I think Jen is kidding herself when she says, I'm doing this just because of whatever reason. He just needs a place to stay, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think that she does have some kind of lingering emotions there because, like she says in a later scene, we didn't really get a chance to say goodbye. I was taken away from him. There's no closure. We need closure here. Um, so for me, she doesn't even know in this moment what's happening with her own emotions, but she is not purely just looking for a place to give Billy a place to stay. If she was, there's probably a YMCA nearby, right?
Mallory: She actually wants him to stay.
James: She wants them to stay. She wants to get that closure. She wants an opportunity to spend more time with Billy. My read on this scene.
Cody: Yeah. It would have been so much better just from the writing perspective to have Billy be not, uh, asshole, like, make him a regular character. That would make Dawson freak out even more. It's like, oh, wow, this person is genuinely nice. I guess it would mirror too much the relationship between Joey and Jen because Joey's problem with Jen is that Jen is really nice about everything. I guess that would have been a little too close to home. But for that sake, it's too easy for Dawson to be threatened by Mr. Cool Guy. It would be more interesting to see him relate to a character that isn't just an asshole and just a regular person that happened to be an ex of Jen, but we'll never see that.
James: All right, well, on, um, that note, it is time for us to take our very first commercial break. So ladies and gentlemen and everybody in between, we will see you on the other side.
Cody: There are only a few certainties I have in this life. One is that Dawson's movie will more than likely not get accepted into that Boston Film Festival. And two, that all you Creek freaks out there are the best fans of podcast can have. We won't be doing this if it weren't for you. Which is why it would mean the world to us if you could rate, review and subscribe to the show. While there are trillions of stars in the Capeside sky, there are only five that mean the world to us. It would help a whole lot. And we would never choose to hate you like Dawson's dad. We would choose to love you forever. And that is a promise. That night, as Billy mocks Dawson Spielberg paraphernalia, dawson accosts him as to whether he's planning on staying for longer than just a day. Billy performantly states that he's staying until Jen wants him back. Then pulls the old switcheroo and says he's kidding and that he'll probably leave the next day as a mustache twirling machavalean villain. Billy offers up an opportunity to spill the beans on the Full Truth of Jen's. Hey, I'm walking here. New York pen.
Mallory: Um, Daniel, have a guess as to what Dawson was writing in. He was sitting at his desk writing when his vest and trapper said, I'm sure, like, he was a writer. Uh, maybe he was writing in his journal. Was he writing a script? Doing homework.
James: Doing homework.
Stella: I can't remember in this scene. I think I noticed that something I hadn't noticed before. And it looked like they had like a little storyboard, um, clip. Uh, uh oh my gosh.
Mallory: Um, you put up all your little ideas on so maybe he was working on an idea by his desk, I think. Yeah, I thought that was it was kind of like Billy was interrupting him and he's like, come on, I'm working here.
Cody: I just don't understand. I mean, I'm happy that they've kind of left his movie to the desk. Like, we haven't heard or seen anything about that monster movie in quite a long time now. But I mean, is this like their way of giving viewers that have been keeping up week to week to be like, he's still working on it, don't worry. Uh, I bet you're wondering about this, but here he is working on okay, so let's say that he's working on the script, which doesn't make any sense because then he say that he's shot everything that he did before that movie. Like, are they doing reshoots?
James: Or if it's edit notes, but then.
Cody: Why not just edit? Why have a diary of these are going to be edits? So one day I might make, I don't know.
Mallory: Uh, the Billy actor in this scene reminded me of Paul Red.
James: Definitely.
Mallory: One thing I noticed, like Paul Redd and Clueless. Like that time m of Paul rudd. Yeah, he looks like him, kind of.
Cody: Oh, and just like looks wise.
Mallory: Yeah, just like how he came on. Well, how he looked, I guess because he had showered, so he had normal clothes on, he had a t shirt. He didn't have his seventy s and he was I don't know, he just looked like Paul Rudd in that.
James: I agree.
Cody: He really did.
James: He looked like young Paul Rudd. Kind of with a slightly different jawline, basically. Um, the thing that I think that Billy did that was most offensive in this scene was when he threw himself down on Dawson's bed. There's something about that that I was just really offended by. I was like, you motherfucker, that's my bed.
Cody: Again. Yeah. I hate Billy as a character. Not because he's a bad boy, which is annoying, but just because he's just nothing. Like, he's just a demon ghost. Demon ghost. Vampire. Demon ghost maybe. But it's just obnoxious. It's nothing. And all of it is again, I think they took all the energy of putting this onto Jen or Pacey or Joey. All this is just for Dawson's character development now. They threw it all on to Billy to be that person.
James: Right?
Cody: It's frustrating because he's nothing. But again, I do like the plot beat here that he's tempting Dawson to be like, I'll reveal the secrets of your girlfriend. Which again, if Dawson just trusted everything that Jen said, who said that I'm a different person now and that's my past and this is me now, deal with it, then this wouldn't be an issue. So I like the M beats. Billy is not a good character. Looks great though. It looks just like Paul Rudd. Dawson bursts into Joey's place begging for advice to Joey's, pleading to not wake up the baby. He info dumps his growing issues with Jen, reflecting on the relationship problems of his parents, how he thinks doing anything over Billy's presence is a lose lose for him, and how Billy is just way cooler. The whole shebang. Joey tells him to relax and it'll all blow over, which is the magical antianxiety elixir Dawson needed. He tells Joey that she's the best and leaves. To which Joey looks sad as the baby begins to cry.
Stella: Two things. One, Joey is very clear not to wake the baby and he's really quiet. And then, um, when he leaves, he just slams the door. I was like, what the fuck, Boston? Um, and then also, I swear Joey said, oh, so is that the cute guy that was at school yesterday?
James: Right.
Mallory: Oh, as in yesterday yesterday?
Stella: But it's not still seems like the same day because Dawson is wearing the same outfit to ah, me, it was.
Mallory: Like the same evening and he had to get away. So he went over to Joey's.
James: That was how I interpreted too. He was like, well, fuck this, I have to get out of here. I'm going to go to my friend's place.
Cody: Yeah.
Mallory: She said yesterday.
Stella: Pretty positive she said yesterday. And I watched that a couple of times and I was really confused.
James: Interesting.
Stella: So I don't know if that was just a little silly.
Cody: Maybe the time doesn't exist in the show like we think it is because they're in purgatory.
Mallory: Joey's dream.
Cody: Yeah, I forgot.
Mallory: Her, uh, hoodie was looking super cozy that she's wearing in this scene. I want a little sweater like that.
Stella: He was looking cute this episode.
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: Love kitty holmes. Uh, I find it hilarious that her advice is be cool, man. You're right. Bye.
Mallory: Yeah, I thought it was nice for her to reassure him but then she is so sad.
Cody: Yeah, she's super. Such an empty advice though. Like, don't worry about it.
James: Okay.
Cody: She offered nothing tangible, but at the.
Mallory: Same time he went with it.
Cody: Oh, yeah, he loved it.
James: And he's kind of offering nothing like he says basically. Actually, I have a clip. I'm just going to play this really quick. Let's take a listen. I'm beginning to think relationship problems running my family. I thought I took a little bit more audio than that but that's basically what he's bringing to this. Like, well, my dad and my mommy are fighting and now me and my girlfriend are fighting and I think I'm cursed. So she's like, okay, you're spinning out.
Mallory: Yeah. Isn't this what she says? Are we talking about the father or son here?
James: Okay, yeah, I caught that as well. But you guys want to hear it?
Cody: I would love to hear it.
Mallory: Are we talking about the father or the son here?
James: Worth it or the whole year? Yeah, actually I'm going to play this next clip just while we're on this train. Um, I captured this because I felt like this perfectly summarized how I felt as a young boy. Super. Ah, angsty and email. Let's listen to Dawson's angsty email line. How much pain and humiliation kind of relationship endure before it's reached the point of no return.
Cody: Aren't they return lyrics?
Mallory: How much pain the point of no.
James: Return right after that is where Joey says are we talking about the father or the son here? Right. Holy spirit. Holy spirit. Is God watching us? Um, so, yeah, I feel like back to my initial question earlier on his parents on a train tracks. On the train tracks is the next station on their journey divorced? And it feels like that's kind of what he is setting up in this scene. They reinforce it. So I feel like we are kind of heavily implying things are going bad as we later see they go really bad for Dawson and Jen. Maybe they are also going to go really badly for the man meets.
Cody: Yeah, this show at the beginning my biggest criticism was that it just kept hitting the reset button. There was no consequences for anything. But now it seems like consequences are very much real and people are living with their actions. So at one point I did say, yeah, this is just going to be fixed the next day. But now people are actually living with the things that are happening in their lives. So this could be a divorce. I mean, I could see it by season two, everyone's remarried. I feel as though they're going to start bringing in more and more and.
James: Build off they're going to resurrect Joey's mom. I'm pretty confident she's going to come back and she's going to marry Sophie. Bob from the movie? No, it's from the TV station. There we go.
Cody: I wonder if we'll ever get Bob again.
James: I think he's been killed. Oh, no.
Cody: Is that where Mitchell went that day during hurricane? I choose to hate you, Bob. Dawson corners Jen on the Billy situation expressing he believes that Billy is only there to win her back. While Jen tries to reassure him that it's not true. She lets us know that billy was one of the good ones. And although he definitely still has feelings for her, dawson has nothing to worry about. In the ultimate, quote, unquote nice guy move, dawson ignores what she says and believes his anxiety takes president telling her he deserves respect before storming off against her. Uh, and she pleads to him to try and understand Dawson. What a twerp. Infuriating.
Stella: I just loved it when Jim's like, he treated me well. And Dawson replies, so you're going back to him?
Mallory: It's like, where did you make that jump? Yeah, he's not listening to her.
Stella: Yes.
Cody: Never.
James: Yeah, no, he's spiraling. Which I, as somebody with massive anxiety.
Cody: About everything, feel that.
James: Like, I definitely have been in a situation where I blow something completely out of proportion based off of my own anxieties, no matter the assurances or reassurances I'm getting from the outside world. So I can't help but feel like I understand where Dawson is coming from. In fact, I feel like I've probably had this exact same fight with an ex past life regardless of the fact that my ex is not trying to get their ex to stay over at my house. Um, this is one of the few moments where I'm like, am I Dawson in the real world?
Mallory: I do think he was right though. And, uh, he said, quote, I don't think he's getting the message in quite frankly, I don't think you want him to. He was spot on with that.
James: What I kind of was getting at earlier, I actually do believe I agree with what Dawson saying here. Whether or not you think that Billy has no intentions, I think it's clear that Billy does have the intentions of getting you back here. And with that in mind, the very act of you asking me to support him in this is disrespectful to me. So I don't necessarily want to defend like, toxic relationship behavior but I do see where he's coming from in this moment specifically 100%.
Cody: It's great writing. I mean, ford Dawson's character and again, at the top of the show, one of the things we say is how does this match up with our adolescence? And, uh, to play armchair psychologist, the thing that bugs us the most in life is the thing that mirrors our society of ourselves. And I see myself in Dawson as.
James: Being one, um, hundred.
Cody: This fucking guy. Like, I do this all the time where I make a mountain out of a molehill with everything that I do. And so when I see Dawson do it, it's infuriating. I want to dip my hands into the television, just shake them around and be like, Bud, uh, just listen to her.
Mallory: Also, aside from that, Jen had a very cool cardigan on in this scene. Uh, it's black with embroidered flowers.
James: I want this cardigan.
Mallory: And then, uh, Dawson was wearing brown corduroy pants and at some point later, I believe Paisy was also wearing. Some brown corduroy pants.
James: Yes, we should all wear corduroy pants.
Mallory: Love some corduroy.
Stella: Love corduroy.
James: Our first live show is going to be all corduroy. Uh, everything corduroy. Chairs.
Cody: Uh, when you guys were kids, uh, did you ever read The Children's?
James: Oh, my God.
Mallory: Corduroy bear for Halloween this year.
Cody: This month.
Stella: I remember.
Mallory: Oh, man, yeah, I remember seeing green photo.
Stella: Very cute.
Cody: I have a memory of a goldfish. What a cute little bear. Oh, I want those green slacks.
Mallory: Lucy and Yak, they have a shout out. They have corduroy overalls.
James: So earlier on, I mentioned how Mr. Man meets James, his, uh, wife, Mrs. Manmade, over, um, her affair that she had and then how this is then reflected later on with Dawson doing the same thing to Jen. I actually caught that audio. Let's take a listen. How do I get repaid? By having the guy who's had you everywhere from Battery Park to your parents bed dumped at me as my new bunk mate.
Mallory: Dawson, come on, be fair to me. All right?
Cody: Yeah. Such a low blow.
James: It's such a low blow.
Cody: Low hanging fruit. It's just like the thing that he goes to back and forth.
Stella: Yeah, he does that a lot. This episode. It's really disappointing.
James: He knows it's going to hurt her. And that is what I think. I hope that we get some kind of consequences for this behavior from Dawson because this is exactly the kind of behavior you see from The White Knight. The good guy in the friend group.
Cody: Yeah. Again, you said you want more consequences of it, but fast forwarding, she breaks up with him, and rightfully so. Uh, which is why this was a great episode to me, because we're finally seeing those consequences to his actions and, uh, in a meaningful way that isn't just like, oh, that's something that he's doing. It's like, now there's actual repercussions for this. So the fact that he didn't get off scot free for all of this is terrific.
James: That's a good point.
Cody: In the empty video store pacey Gleefully watches Luis YOSA's 1997 groundbreaking cinematic achievement, Anaconda, starring Jennifer Lopez, Ice Cube and John Voye. A glimpse into the third act climax in which a titular giant snake is a lit a flame as it tries to eat Jennifer Lopez and Ice Cube. An exhausted Joey enters the store begging to rent the excessively mediocre 1996 Academy Award Best Picture winner, The English Patient, as it's the only thing that makes the baby fall asleep. The subject of Billy is brought up, which segues into Pacey, laying it on thick that Joey must love Billy's presence as it puts a wedge between Dawson and Jen and points out that it's obvious that Joey loves Dawson. Joey exits, not without a, uh, searing takedown in the form of her stating, bite me, Pacey.
James: All right, I want you all to look at me really quick because can you see their kind of tears in my eyes right now as of Anaconda.
Mallory: You just realized why the moment don't.
James: Let me say it, please. Thank you. I got a little bit emotional thinking about Pacey reading The English Patient to the baby later on or telling him about the story. I finally realized why he's doing that and oh, my God, Paci is such a good character. What the fuck?
Mallory: We are experiencing this in real time. He's bawling listeners.
James: Wow, that got me.
Cody: Yeah, it's a wonderful moment. This show is really good with baby stuff. The first time that this show made me emotional is when Bessie, uh, told Joey yeah, Bessie, it's like a Pokemon. When Betty told Joey that, um, the baby had their mom's eyes, that was the first time that I got choked up. And then in this episode with him being super nice to that baby with.
Mallory: English Patient dialogue I can't wait to talk about that later. But I do think that Joey needs to get a new job as an auctioneer.
James: Yeah.
Cody: Uh, because quick ass dialogue.
Mallory: We've got this audio clip here on cable last night to put the baby to sleep. In fact, it's the only thing that.
Stella: Puts the baby to sleep because the baby never sleeps.
Mallory: And if the baby doesn't sleep, then I don't sleep. And if I don't sleep, I get angry, I get irritable, and I no longer maintain my Sunday disposition to Pacey as even the slightest bit of human decency with me immediately and bring 181 minutes of peace in my otherwise the wretched life.
Cody: Uh, James, you're a tech whiz. Is there any way that you could take the audio from, um, I Want You? I don't know if I need to, but Dying to Find Out by Savage Garden and then put this over oh.
James: That'S a really good request. I'm going to work on that one for you.
Stella: Love pacey in the scene.
Mallory: Yes.
Stella: This was the first moment in this episode where I was like, okay, all right, Pacey, I see you.
Cody: This is the moment that I fell in love with this, uh, in the same way that we don't want to see ourselves reflected in all of our toxic traits, we also want to see ourselves reflected in, uh, how we are, uh, connecting with a character. And I have certainly enjoyed Anaconda many, many times. But I connect with Pacey being alone, watching a bad movie and loving the shit out of it before Joe even walks in. He's cracking up, watching this stupid movie. And I love that. Anaconda is a very good, bad movie. It is very over the top. John Foy's accent in the movie is from a different planet.
Mallory: I feel like this scene kind of carried on Pacey's story in this episode where he's bored and he wants to stir up things. So he's like, oh, Joey Dawson. Uh, he's kind of trying to stir things up in, uh, this moment. I can't tell if I like Pacey or if it's like he's kind of like a little stinker. Yeah. Trying to I wonder we find out more about PC but I wasn't quite sure yet by this scene.
Stella: I, uh, was confused because I don't know, a couple of times in this episode it almost seems like the events in The Breakfast Club episode didn't happen. At the end of the episode we all felt for the most part that it was very clear, but Joey is in love with Dawson. That was like writing on the wall. And the way Pacey brings that up, her feelings for Dawson and she's kind of like, what are you talking about? Like, it's nothing. Um, so mhm, I don't know, I thought that was a little bit odd.
Cody: It's just TV of the time because Episodic TV, like you're just like banking on you're like, hoping people are watching every episode but you know that people are probably tuning in for the first time so it's like, we can't have such a direct carryover but we have to reference it.
James: Mhm.
Cody: I find it frustrating too. It was very clear by the end of that episode that she had basically admitted that she was in love with Austin. But I don't think they could, like I don't know, I'm just assuming that they could. Not directly.
Mallory: It's like at the beginning of this episode when she's crawling into Dawson's room and sleeping over where, um, the last episode not just happened.
James: Yeah, right. I feel like just backtracking a little bit, cody, you said that this is where you fell in love with Pacey. I definitely feel like I started to in this moment because this is the first email we see Pacey doing something for somebody else, for no gain for himself. He has nothing.
Mallory: He's born though.
James: Sure, you could say that.
Cody: But it's interesting to me because this is like new. Pacey, pacey 20 after, uh, the Tampa software update. Yeah, no kidding. I like what they're doing with his character in that he doesn't really fit into other narratives. So he has the most agency out of everybody. He's not hanging up on anyone. There's no other relationship that he's actively chasing. So he just has friendships that he's building and he is definitely more aware than anyone else. He's like the great wizard. Ah, he's watching everything. Uh, and he definitely has an opinion about all of it.
James: And I think if you told me after episode one that Pacey was going to be the voice of wisdom, that he was going to be like the guiding light in the show, that he would be seeing everything and kind of offering advice to people, I would be like, fuck you. You do not know what I just saw. All right? Because this feels like a major shift from where he's been. But at the same time I kind of see where we got how we got to where we are. Right. The entire time we're like, why is this happening? Well, it was all happening because we needed to understand that Pacey is on the outside of everybody, that he's from a home, that nobody cares about him and that he can kind of just like he's invisible. Nobody knows what Pacey is doing and that he is very observant at the same time. So I'm really excited for what we have left in this episode to talk about regarding Pacey and as well beyond that where Paisy is going to go because now suddenly I'm like really excited but not quite yet trying out for Team Pacey. Uh, right now I've got like three toes in the Paisy pool water.
Mallory: Yeah.
Stella: Really uh, loved hearing bite me. Want to bring that back. I to rumba such a good 90s insult.
James: Um, vampire Lord I wasn't even going to call it out but you just.
Mallory: Did a sound clip of it.
Stella: I was going to say, um, I love Joey's outfit and she has like.
Mallory: A red oh yeah, the red jacket.
Stella: Yes, but red blood by me.
Mallory: Totally. And they're just taking on that under the dark circles. Every time we see Joey her eyes are looking darker.
James: In the baby episode we did postulate that Bessie is the queen vampire and that after the birth she would return to her human form. Right. Because she said anyway, what if as a part of this, joey has been converted to a vampire? Mhm we're going to do the next 3 hours of this episode.
Mallory: Just.
Cody: We should have an episode where it's David Lynch, yoda. And some, uh, other characters.
Stella: Permit the frog.
James: Permit the frogsis from the Dark Crystal.
Cody: Yeah, just like any Frank Oz character. Plus David Lynch.
James: That's going to be a great episode. All right, well I think it's on that note that we will go to our second commercial break. We'll see you on the other side.
Mallory: Chicken, chicken, chocolate.
James: Hey everybody, James here just jumping in to give a quick plug for our social media. You can find us online at Freaks and Creeks pod. It's got plenty of great content. Get to know the host a little bit, see the funny things that we snap out of the episodes and just join in on the conversation. We'd love to have you there, we'd love to get to know you. It's going to be a fun time. Also go on over to our website freaksandcreeks.com. It's got a snazzy web player, you can send links to your friends or you can even subscribe on all the different podcasters all straight from our website. Great and we look forward to seeing you next week. Enjoy the rest of the episode.
Cody: And we're back at the lyrics. Dawson listens from his room as Mitch and Gale come home from one of their therapy recommended adventures arguing over the experience and stating that they feel as though they're wasting their time dawson closes the door in sadness.
Stella: I honestly don't know a lot about couples therapy. Um, but I want to know if this I feel like I've heard this before, to try new things together, to try and spice things up or whatever, but doesn't seem like I mean, I guess Gail said that the affair happened because she was essentially bored, but it feels like they should be working on other things besides just, like, doing some activities together. I don't know, I just like, the storyline about them doing these different activities feels weird. Um, Mitch later is like, yeah, I think we should start with the basics. Okay. Yeah. And I don't know, maybe dive into some of the stuff really, uh, on here.
James: It feels like this scene, this idea was written by somebody who's never been to therapy and who thinks therapy is a crock of shit. Yes.
Cody: I was about to say it's. Like, clearly, when people have never been in therapy and don't know what it is, you always know when they're writing about therapy because it's like, oh, what do you think they do in therapy? They probably tell people to scuba dive.
James: Yeah. And I feel like this is actually a little bit of 90s nostalgia because we wouldn't be in the situation we are in 2022 with the mental health crises that we have if it were not for the 1990s, um, rejection, uh, of any mental health illness or any mental health, uh, issue. In the 90s, it was just weakness and you just had to get over it. Now we know that there are actually mental illnesses that affect people and that you can seek help. And it doesn't mean that you're not a big, strong, macho man with a huge wiener. That you can still be a normal person and suffer from these issues. So I felt like this was like a slice of 1990s life. Let's talk shit on therapy.
Cody: Shout out to therapy.
James: Everybody should go once.
Stella: Also, just, um james, I know you mentioned feeling, uh, like you related to being a product of parents divorce. Is that what I mean to say?
James: A child of child of divorce?
Stella: Yeah. Not a product.
James: I'm a product of it.
Stella: Um, but, yeah, I am also a child of divorced parents. And my parents divorced when I was a teenager. And just that shot of Dawson, like, listening and closing the door was like, yeah, feel that.
James: Definitely.
Mallory: Yes.
Stella: Rough.
Mallory: It sucks.
Stella: And, uh, as much as we hate on Dawson, I feel for him, it's not fun dealing with having to listen to the parents fighting.
James: No. And I'll say the silver lining here is that Dawson didn't throw temper tantrum. He didn't make it about himself. He had the awareness to realize, hey, these are my parents'problems. I should not make them feel any kind of way about this. Um, so it could have been worse, but yeah, another moment in this episode where it's like, yikes, I feel that there's like a visceral feeling that I get from that scene even as short as it is.
Cody: It's funny that we're talking about how the 90s was so anti therapy and how if the writers and anyone actually considered therapy as what it is an extremely valid and important part of our social structure. None, uh, of these characters would have the problems that they have if all of them were in therapy. So important. Go find a therapist that works for you. It's extremely good. At the Icehouse Diner, Joey is waiting tables for an ungrateful swarm of grotesque customers with unreasonable demands. Pacey magically appears and tries to convince her to go to Cliff's party with him as he couldn't find a date. Wink, wink. He uses the winning argument that Dawson will be there without Jen and Bessie saves the day by letting Joey off the hook, allowing her to leave. Okay, I just want to ask a question. So they are clearly they do not have enough people there to cover these shifts. This place has swarmed. So why would, uh, businesses that do this drive me nuts? They're like, yeah, it's okay if you leave, we'll just have someone cover for you. No, you need to hire like 30 people to do this. I know. Like Bessie and Bodie. There is no official word yet within the narrative of the show that shows if they do own this place or not. But business owners that do not hire enough employees because you're selfish and you want to keep all that money for yourself bad. You need to have people covering these things so your employees don't get stressed out and overwhelmed and burned out. Drives me nuts.
Mallory: Yeah, I just felt anxious with the surround sound of the, uh, all the annoyed restaurant patrons. Like, you would notice the one guy that was literally yelling in the background about his order and then again the same guy for a refill and then.
Stella: That woman who ordered the coffee literally 2 seconds later, she's like, I'm waiting.
James: That's what I was going to say. It's like, okay, so Joey took your order but then leaves because you're taking too long and in the process of that you're like, excuse me, I ordered a coffee. Did you not see that? I haven't gone anywhere. I'm just three steps over. I can't materialize coffee for you.
Stella: Did anyone notice that when she came back she left the pot of coffee at the top?
James: No, I didn't notice that.
Cody: Oh my gosh.
Mallory: But, um, isn't it interesting that Pacey saves her in this moment like he does later in the episode?
Stella: Yes.
Mallory: Foreshadow for them in the future.
James: Yeah.
Cody: Again, if anyone has ever worked in retail or customer service, this is real. Customers are that bad. The customer is always wrong. There are bad people always right.
Mallory: What are you talking about?
James: I've worked many years in retail. I was a retail store manager for a period of time. And, um, this feels so relatable. I mean, I never worked in food service, but the amount of people who were just like this that pushy out of the gate, that were that demanding right out of the gate, it is real. And I felt for Joey in this moment where she is just, like, at her with them. She's no longer a person. Right. She is just a robot in this moment. She's taking orders from person to person. Um, I liked the moment when she's talking with Pacey about all the reasons that she can't go out and she's clearing this table of people who I.
Cody: Don'T think we're ready to leave yet.
Mallory: Lady was so confused.
James: Yeah. It almost looks like she pours food on her lap. And there's a moment where Joey apologizes. And I actually think it's Katie Holmes apologizing because probably she dropped, like, a little bit of food on this actor. Um, but, yeah, this scene is really confusing. It also is confusing to me where it goes from Bessie being like, joey, I need you on this table.
Cody: I need you to take this order.
James: I need you to do that. No, wrong table, dumbass. Go over here. And then she's like, oh, okay, bye.
Mallory: Yeah.
Cody: When she was off screen for maybe only 15 seconds of this one shot, like, at one point, did Bestie just calm down, call someone named Sarah, whom we've never seen, uh, and invite her in.
James: She took a fistful of happy pills.
Mallory: I wish we could have seen Bodie be like, Come on, let her go, uh, or something.
James: But they only paid Bodie for three episodes.
Stella: Uh, there he is.
Cody: Bodie.
James: He's still in the bathroom at home, apparently.
Mallory: I liked the, uh, party on Bessie.
James: Yeah, I got it.
Stella: They left. Oh, good.
James: Party on, Betsy.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: Yeah. Party on, Betty. Wayne's world reference, I'm guessing.
Mallory: Oh, yeah.
Cody: I wonder how far off that is.
James: Because eight plus years went to Wayne.
Cody: No, wayne's World is like 92.2. Yeah.
James: So we're not too far off, but yeah, it's very strange. Um, I thought this was, uh, kind of cute, pacey saving her. I think he's doing it in the way that he knows how. Right. Yeah. I knew you're a loser like me, so why don't we go out together? But I guess the question I have for all of you is do you think Pacey is doing this as a romantic gesture or as a, hey, I need to get you out of your funk?
Mallory: You mean as a romantic gesture? No, I think it was just like, you needed out of here. Uh, you need to get out of here then.
James: Do you think he's doing this so that she causes the scene and he has something fun, like he's orchestrating some kind of crazy scene? Or is he really being, um I.
Mallory: Think it's a little bit of a mix of being altruistic, but also he's bored. Well, like we were saying, he's kind of on the outside and out right now and doesn't have anything going on for himself so he's causing a stir.
Stella: I felt like it was coming from just like a place of wanting to have fun and bring a friend.
Mallory: Mhm.
Stella: Another thing I kind of was just thinking about but I don't really think this is right. But what if he doesn't realize he has feelings?
Mallory: Yes, but he says and that Dawson will be at the party alone so he definitely knows. He's like, uh, let's get you to the party because that's what I'm trying.
James: To figure out here is, is he doing this because, hey Joey, you're in a funk, you need to get out and see some people and do some things and just get out of your head. Or is he doing this as Mr. Burns rubbing my fingers together? I'm going to get you in a place where I can see you have a meltdown or something.
Mallory: I don't know if he wants to have a meltdown, but I, um, don't know. What do you think?
Cody: My read for all of this is in a little bit we're going to see Pacey punch a bad man and Joey credits that to Dawson. And you, uh, see, uh, Pacey's reaction being kind of like a mix of being befuddled and kind of sad that he didn't get credit for helping her. And I feel as though Paisley as a character is overshadowed by her relationship with Dawson. Even if they're like a dynamic trio, right? In their friendship, he kind of takes Dawson as the one that is like they're the best friends and I'm the third wheel sort of thing. I think Pacey, like, there's a little bit of him that does have a crush on Joey. Like they do have their weird flirtation of being mean to each other and they kind of get off on that. Pacey is like, okay with flirting with her, but at the same time as a friendship kind of thing and I think in his mind this is like a lot of guessing on my part but I feel as though Pacey thinks I don't have a chance in hell with Joey. I'll flirt and have fun, I want to be her friend but it's not like anything would ever happen with me and her. I think he's very self deprecating in this relationship and it's valid because she never really gives him the credit for helping her when he is trying really hard to do that. At least in this episode. I don't think he's playing fucking games, uh, or trying to manipulate situations or anything. Like, I think he is genuinely an actual nice guy and uh, he cares for Joey. He wants her to have fun and he'll be flirtatious and stuff but he doesn't think it's going to amount to anything. Whatever. I want to have fun with you.
Mallory: Yeah, I don't think he's playing games either. I agree. I think deep down he probably does. Is attracted to her and likes her, but he's being playful and wants to have fun.
Cody: Mitch pops into Dawson's room, finding his son alone and brooding. They discussed their similar relationship issues, leading Dawson to reveal how he actually believes him and Mitch to be, again, quote unquote, nice guys. Which to Dawson is no longer a desirable masculine trait. Mitch gives fatherly advice that relationships are all about compromise, but that there really is no true absolute.
James: I'm curious if you know what stage four and stage five is as our representative of social work.
Cody: I work with people. Right.
Stella: Do you work with people? I have no idea what stage four or stage five is.
James: All I thought it was cancer. And I'm like so I don't think that's where we're at. I don't think that's how cancer is developed.
Cody: But maybe I like using this as a parallel sequence to the one that we've already referenced where Mitch taught Dawson how to kiss using a mannequin head. In that sequence, Mitch had all the answers and he was like a hypersexual character. And he's like, this is what you need to do to get the girl. Make your bottom lip dance. Kiss the mannequin head like this. But in this, uh, it was great to see that that actually didn't mean anything and he doesn't know shit. And so here he's like, relationships are all about compromise. But actually, I'm also going to tell you that there is no absolute. There is no tell all about what makes a relationship work or not.
James: Yes. I kept this clip, which I think is just good advice coming from the dad.
Cody: Anyone who's never been hurt is either very lucky or very lonely.
James: The trick is to get through it. I felt like that was exactly what Dawson needed to hear in this moment. Right. It's normal to get hurt. It's normal for things to happen that maybe you didn't expect. That's just part of life. What you have to focus on is getting past that. And that's what we're seeing. He's stuck, right? Dawson is just like so stuck. He's just spinning his wheels.
Mallory: Um, I noticed a new poster. Did you notice this in Dawson's bedroom? It was a backwards poster for the Empire Strikes Back. I think it was backward city. Do you know what that is? City slickers too. Sorry. Remember seeing the backwards poster and then I don't know if I read the letters wrong, but it's a backwards poster. I was wondering, is that something what.
Cody: Is that for one sheet? It's backwards on the back of them. Like if you buy like an official one sheet poster for i, uh, didn't know that a movie.
Mallory: So you, uh, had it up in the backwards, like on the backwards side?
Cody: Yeah, I had one for the, uh, classic Nickelodeon film, Good Burger. And, uh, I had a really cool 90s room and so I, uh, had the flipped version. Just like how Dawson has cool stuff in my room.
James: I was assuming that was, like, due to rear projection. We put them on the light boxes out front of movie theaters. Is that what that was from? Why are they two sided like that?
Cody: That's a really good question. I have no idea.
Mallory: Because that's something that you would have to create. Both, I guess. I don't know.
James: Wouldn't it cost more money to print it double sided like that than it would just print it's? Very interesting.
Mallory: Um, also a fashion note. Um, Dawson is wearing a super cool corduroy velvet plaid pattern zip up jacket and he wears this the rest of the evening. Um, so more corridor. I think it's either corridor or velvet, but that texture, I missed that.
James: I think I was just too blown away by Mr. Manmedet and Manmade Jr. Having an actual conversation that wasn't like, now here's what you do to the woman to make them squeal.
Cody: And actually good advice.
Mallory: Yeah, it was really good advice.
Cody: And it reminded me this is one of my favorite Star. Uh, Trek The Next Generation. Quotes from Captain Jean Luc Picard. But he says, uh, it is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life. And I was like, wow, that's such a great life. Really reminded me of that. On a bizarrely secluded boat dock, billy tries to convince Jen to come back to New York and can't believe she's choosing Dawson over him. Jen tells him to get over it and that she needs to head to Cliffs party to be with Dawson. But Billy proposes a coercive idea of them having one final kiss for old times sake, promising he'll leave. If she does, she kisses him and says goodbye.
James: Okay, uh, how many of us saw through this not being a goodbye kiss?
Cody: Oh, yeah.
James: Everybody unanimous. Yeah. No way in hell does he actually leave. And that's not just convenient storytelling. That's like, of course this motherfucker isn't going to be like, yeah, goodbye kiss. I feel like. That said, though, I think Jen handled this well. Yeah. What did she do? She tries to get out of the situation as quickly as possible.
Mallory: Yeah, she gave him a little peck.
James: Tiny. It was like kissing your grandmother or grandfather. There's no emotion behind it.
Mallory: No.
Stella: I just want to note that I feel like Dawson and Billy are both just trying to manipulate Jen a lot in this episode. And Jen earlier says to Dawson, he's the one that treated me with respect, but we've just seen him be extremely manipulative and Dawson was earlier, too. And I don't know, it's just frustrating.
Mallory: I feel like she's like a really.
Stella: Smart person and to see her being manipulated by these guys is just, like, hard to watch.
James: But don't we all know somebody like Jen? Right. Like, I grew up. With these people who were upstanding, super intelligent, they got good grades, they were involved in all this kind of stuff. They had a good social network. And then who did they date? The absolute worst people who took advantage of them and took them for all their worth. And they didn't just do that once. They did it multiple times. Right. It's like, we all know somebody like this and I think what does it say about Jen that she mistakes respect and being treated well for what is probably physical attention? I'm guessing, like, what is Billy actually offering her that she mistakes for respect? Because I think when any of us watch their interactions, it's not respectful. Like you're saying he's manipulating her the entire time. How is this respect?
Cody: Uh, this episode does a very good job of showing that Billy and Dawson are two sides of the same coin.
James: Totally.
Cody: And the thing that both of them do have in common is they give her attention and for her entire life. I mean, that's like her big speech at the end is like, uh, I've always been hopping from relationship to relationship and this is why I need me time and learn about myself. So that's why I can't do this anymore. Which is great. I love that Jen is actually acting on her own accord and growing from these things. And I think that's why this is such a great scene to see this versus everything that Dawson does with her too. It's very realistic. It's sad, it sucks watching this, but it also makes sense.
James: Yeah.
Cody: And also another thing is it's so great how this will later explode for Dawson when he finds out about this kiss and it's like such a huge deal to him. And obviously it's a shitty situation to be in, but it's great in showing character growth and how they're so different. And Jen does have a lot of sexual experience in her life and she doesn't view like, a tiny kiss. It's like that big of a deal. Whereas Dawson is extremely naive and inexperienced with anything involving like a sexual relationship. So he's going to make that the biggest deal in the world. So the way that they explore that I think was also great because it's just like a little peck in her mind. Not a big deal, whatever. Like, if this will get him out of town, I'll go for it.
Stella: Uh, one other thing I was just going to say. Kind of responding to your point, James. Um. She's saying that Billy treated her with respect but we're not seeing that and I kind of wonder if that kind of shows she's probably been treated like shit by a lot of other guys and Billy is just like basically treating her with the bare minimum of respect. Which then maybe kind of shows us why she thinks Dawson is like a godsend quote because he's actually maybe a nice guy compared to some of the other guys and.
Mallory: Um.
Stella: It just kind of makes me feel more sad for her if she's just been treated like shit by a bunch of dudes.
James: Yeah, and that's a good point. I actually kind of had already forgotten even in this episode where we've talked about her past, I'd already kind of forgotten about how she had mentioned about all these men who've taken advantage of her, um, through her history. So you're probably right. Billy probably is the best of them, which is so sad. Um, and does explain why she thinks Dawson is so much better. Even when we have, like we just discussed, they're kind of like a binary star. One's the dark side and one's the light side. But they're both the kind of same thing here.
Cody: Yeah. And it also plays into how Dawson views everything is like good guys vs. Bad guys. The black hats versus the white hat. And he is like, oh, Billy is the black hat and I'm the white hat. But he cannot possibly imagine a world where things are scaled and nothing is so morally binary.
James: And what's good for him isn't necessarily good for everyone that there are other people in the world. It's a lesson we all need to.
Cody: Learn sometimes through the sounds of arguably the best radio friendly pop punk song of the late 90s. Blink whiny. Too's damn it. We get to cliff's ranger of a house party. Paceyless Joey finds Dawson who says he'll grab them a drink on his journey. He runs into Jen and they leave to find a place to be secluded to talk things over. A disappointed Joey accepts a drink from a tall blonde scumbag who looks like every member of Limp Biscuit combined into one single human being. She ends up wasted. And when Pacey tries to interrupt the scumbag and Joey, mr. Biscuit shoes him away. Meanwhile, as Dawson and Jen begin to mend, billy arrives and reveals the goodbye kiss, enraging Dawson, leading him to offend Jen by calling Billy just one of the many of the New York men she had been with. And he gives Jen the ultimatum of him or Billy. Jen rightfully leaves disgusted. Concurrently, a much more intoxicated Joey is slow dancing with Mr. Biscuit who is trying to force her to kiss. Pacey arrives just in time and when Biscuit throws a punch, Pacey dodges and hits him with a mean left hook. Dawson runs up to them as Joy collapses and slurs her words, calling Dawson hero as he comes to her aid.
James: This house party sequence is great.
Cody: The audacity to play damn it. From start to finish.
James: Yeah.
Cody: Unreal.
James: They ever so carefully censor out. Uh, and she fucked him. Right? They still play it. They still have that, like that is playing there. But they do remove it and, uh, I'm surprised that they didn't just like anyway, yeah, I think, um it's funny that you think this guy looks like every member of Limp biscuit put together. I think he looks like Thor from The Marvel Cinematic Universe.
Mallory: Marble Tie and Thor and Jane Foster. Joey.
James: That'S true.
Stella: I don't think I know who Jane.
James: Foster natalie Portman's character.
Cody: When we were doing our Marvel rewatch. We decidedly Skip or one too.
James: We're going to have to start Marvel Freaks. M. We'll figure out a different name for that one. But we're going to to have start that one where we go and watch the entire Marvel Cinematic Universe one movie at a time, 25 years after their release. I guess. So. Look forward to that in a while.
Mallory: I found myself playing Where's Waldo with for Cliff because this is his house.
James: I wanted to know so badly.
Mallory: Nowhere to be seen. This is also a really cool house.
Cody: This is where it's like what?
Stella: Yeah, it's so funny. I think in one of the first episodes we talk about like, there's going to be like a party at Nelly's house. She probably has this nice house, right? We don't see Nelly at all.
James: No.
Stella: But, um, here we are. Also, I guess in my head I've just imagined I haven't really thought about there being like beachside properties.
James: Mhm. Um.
Stella: Yeah, I forgot about that one. But yeah, I guess I wonder if the wealthy people have a lot of wonderful beachside houses.
Cody: I was also wondering why the cops? Where are the cops? They have already established that, uh, what the fuck is Pacify's Brothers named Deputy Ducky? Uh, he was combing that beach during the hurricane and he was very happy to just jump into people's houses and hang out all day. So where are the Capeside police trying to stop this party?
James: I think they're storm chasers secretly. I think that it's like Twister. Exactly like Twister. So there's probably a different storm somewhere along the coast that they are furiously hammering stakes into the ground and, um, uh, holding pistols to heads for a while.
Cody: Just the fact that the jump of quality from hurricane to this is undeniable. It's so weird.
James: It's like what we experienced between episode one and episode two in production quality, where it suddenly jumped up to being like studio grade. Now it's like we went from being somebody just in the middle of the night, regurgitating script ideas into their phone to actually sitting down and writing a screenplay.
Cody: I did love all these beats though. I mean, it seems like everyone really gets a moment within this party. It's great.
James: Uh, how quick does Dawson forget about Pacey? Sorry. How quickly he forget about Joe?
Cody: It's so sad.
Mallory: Yeah. Um, when Jen appeared, I did notice another fashion note. She's wearing a suede leather jacket, which I thought was intentional because Billy is also wearing a leather jacket, whereas everyone else is in like these cozy sweaters and corduroy jackets. So it was kind of like it's.
James: Got to be intentional.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: Mhm suede. That's like the inside of leather. Right? Right side. They're connected.
Cody: Yeah.
James: Interesting.
Stella: Yeah. No surprise that Dawson sucks as a friend, but it's like, you can't even just say to Joey, like, hey, uh, I'm going to go have a talk with General Click mhm.
James: Here's your drink. Yeah, sorry, I'll be right back.
Cody: He didn't even get her a drink?
James: No, he literally just leaves her there. Sorry. When Thor walks up with his obviously roofy drink. I'm sorry.
Cody: This guy is worse.
James: We all are aware of date rapists and this guy is like the epitome, am I right? He is just trying to get her as drunk as possible and then take advantage of her later on the beach and it's disgusting. Disgusting, yeah, disgusting.
Cody: Again, this is like another way for the show to talk about it and not talk about it at the same time because his whole thing is he's trying to kiss her on the beach. It's like, okay, but that's as much as, like, this show is going to actually sure, but I am happy that this show does go out of its way to show this character exists and that they're bad and that he's a hero.
James: Exactly. This is what I was talking about. Ah, as far as this episode has somebody who is somehow less likable than Pacey because he comes in here and he is fucking terrible and who sets me in his place? Pacey of all people. I mean, shit, I feel like they did this specifically for people like the four of us who are like, what is going on with this character? Pacey is the worst person on the show because he this is really where Pacey I actually captured this clip. I'm going to play it right now. It's called pacey's. Cool.
Cody: Okay, just a couple of things.
James: First, her name is not Chloe, it's Joey.
Cody: And second, no, I'm not hitting on her, I'm just her friend.
James: God, uh, knows. Well, thanks for the info, we'll catch you later. Again, it's just cool that Pacey is here looking out for Joey. Not because he's trying to get with her, not because he's getting anything out of it, but because he cares about her as a friend and he can see that she needs help. This is what we needed from, um, literally anybody in this show, but especially Pace.
Mallory: This is the moment I started it, uh, turned around for me. He's being a real friend.
Cody: Total. And everything that we've learned about Pacey up until this point is that the only thing that he cares about is sex. And it's great that this sequence started off with him being with Joey and being like, oh, there's a hot girl that I like, bye. But the fact that he later chooses to help Joey instead of chasing that girl that he had talked about previously shows that he cares more about his friendships than he has priorities straightened out, whereas Dawson does not.
James: No, yeah.
Mallory: Um, so the entry of Billy and his quote, a little more kiss and a little less goodbye. In saying this, he knows that Dawson is sensitive to this kiss.
Cody: Oh, yeah.
Mallory: Billy knows that kiss meant nothing. He knows how brief it was. Yet he's holding the devil.
James: He knows exactly what he's doing.
Mallory: Yeah. I love that Jen left. Um, I feel like this is the same thing she did in the dance episode. I think when Dawson and Cliff were writing, she removed herself.
James: Great writing.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: Either he has to go or me. What do you think? Well, I think I'm going to leave.
Cody: Fuck.
James: Mike dropped. Get the fuck out of here. Shut up. Generally, um, I captured this moment. This is a moment between Dawson and Joey. And I thought this is why they need to be together. Is this kind of chemistry that they have? Good party, huh?
Mallory: Uh oh, yeah.
James: I was just a rocket science journal JV football team.
Mallory: Oh, yeah. And cheerleading open up so many doors.
James: They get each other.
Cody: Their resting is great. I also really want to point out that that conversation is taking place during the chorus of Damage and I need to read the lyrics of it because it is so about the show.
James: Totally.
Cody: And it's happened once again. I'll turn to a friend someone that understands sticks to the master plan but everybody's gone and I've been here for too long to face this on my own while I guess this is growing up and that's the theme of this whole entire show.
James: Yeah.
Cody: I love it. Link 22 this show really does use.
James: Music not just as a tone setting tool or as a piece of dietic or nondiegetic music. Right. Like, they actually use the lyrics of the songs that they're playing to represent the emotional states of the characters that are in these scenes in a way that is like hyperliteral. A lot of times we've talked about this multiple times through the show when we call out the lyrics of the songs that get played. But they're often speaking, in my opinion, from the perspective of whoever is the focal character in this scene. In this case, like you're pointing out, Cody. This is Dawson, in my opinion, speaking through this song.
Cody: Yeah. Whether he knows it or not.
James: Whether he knows it or not.
Mallory: Aside, um, from gross and creepy Thor, I wanted to talk about the beachy make out corner that cracked me up because isn't the point of a make out corner to be kind of like out of the way and secluded party? And this is just like in broad daylight, exposed to the entire house with this big wrap around porch, everyone's watching. I thought it was hilarious.
Cody: I wish I knew more of the making of this show in general, but especially this sequence because I feel as though when it was written, it was like, oh, they'll have a make out room, but maybe they just could not get a house to film in there's. Like no studio they could do. So they're like, oh, I guess we can film on the beachy.
Mallory: Knoll.
James: Yeah. Speaking of that, make out point that's around the time that we get to Pacey confronting, uh, Thor and somehow besting him. So this is, uh, something that I clip. It's either this moment or it's something later on that I'll point out, um, that I have a clip for. It's either one of these two moments where I go on to hashtag Team Pacey. But let's take a listen.
Cody: Say goodbye to the nice zero rapist. Man.
James: This show knows what they're doing with this character. They're talking about date rape. They're talking about these people who prey on getting people drunk in the party.
Cody: And what do they do?
James: They make a joke out of it. He's so funny. Not very funny, but it is funny. I'm sorry. It is funny, but not very funny.
Cody: Yeah. Having their cake and eat it too. That's the way the show does it.
Stella: Yeah. I think my, uh, love for Pacey was a slow burn throughout this episode because I think each scene I saw him and I liked him more and more and then by the end, I was fully in love with him.
Mallory: This befuddle moment was pretty cute. Mhm after the punch. Yeah really giving dawson credits.
Cody: This episode in the previous one has done an amazing job at making us feel for him. He gets beat up by the main character, nobody cares about him.
James: My question is, did they do this intentionally? Did they set out to make us hate Pacey from the beginning to win us over by the end of the first season? Or is this a product of how the show has aged? I'm still like, what were they intending our viewing experience to be in 1998 with this character specifically? I can read between the lines for every other character and kind of try to see what they're doing, but Pacey is still like an enigma. Were we supposed to like him? Were we supposed to hate him? What the fuck were we supposed to do with Paisy?
Mallory: Good question.
Cody: Yeah. It's a completely different person than episode one. Oh, yeah.
James: He's had the biggest shift from then to now.
Stella: Yeah. I am curious as to like.
James: If.
Stella: It happened in real time where they had the first couple of episodes come out and then maybe realize that maybe there was some backlash or people were.
James: Like, oh, everything was filmed before the pilot released. So they made this choice. Mhm did they do it predicting the backlash? Because if they did it predicting the backlash, I actually think they deserve some flowers or some shit because this has been a roller coaster following Pacey.
Cody: I don't think it had anything to do with the backlash. I remember, like, predicting one. It feels more to me is that they accidentally wrote themselves into a corner and this is their way to get out of it. If you write this, uh, one very specific arc and go, wait a minute, he isn't friends with anyone now. Like, he's in his own TV show.
James: Like, what are we doing?
Cody: Yeah, and I don't think it was like, because again, all the marketing like that Got Milk ad where he's like being with older women. That was so grotesque. And so I think it was like, we'll have this thing and it's like, okay, well, fuck, like, we don't know what to do with this character anymore. So this is their way of being like, okay, he's actually a kid and this is like his new character arc is him being a sad sack. Like, this is the best we can do. But I don't know. They've done a great job. Whatever happened to get us here? All for it?
James: All done.
Mallory: Mhm.
Stella: Before we wrap up the scene, just, uh, really impressed with PC able to punch this enormous fanbor like man and dodge.
Cody: Dodge.
James: He learned and knocked him out cold.
Cody: One punch.
James: Yeah. So he gets punched in the noggin by movie theater man, and he's like, never again.
Mallory: And then he gets punched with a basketball. He learned.
Stella: Okay, sorry, Joey, just real quick, um, I like to watch with subtitles on. And so during the scene, I was noticing she says that she wants to leave.
Mallory: Yes, I want to leave.
James: But it's sound like she says that. I feel like, uh, I was wondering if the subtitles were off because when you watched it without the subtitles, if you did, what did you guys think?
Mallory: Like, I don't want to leave.
Cody: I don't want to leave. Exactly.
James: It sounds like because Pacey walks up and he's like, all right, Joey, it's time to say goodbye. We're going to leave. Ah. And she's like, I don't want to leave. Go away, Pacey. That's what I took it to say. And then Pacey's like, okay, no, actually, I'm going to make this decision for you. But the subtitles say the exact opposite.
Stella: Very confusing.
James: Can you pull the audio clip of it? Um, let me see. I will play this. It says someone somehow worse than Pacey. I'm, um, not sure what that means. I know it's about Thor, but I have no idea. So let's find out.
Mallory: Are you guys I.
James: Forgot. I apparently did not capture that. But I did capture this. Maybe this will help you again.
Cody: Ahold.
James: Is that what you're looking for? What about this?
Cody: He's not a very Thor like thing to do, but a very limp, biscuit thing to do.
James: Very limp, biscuit thing to do. He's doing it all for the nookie, I'm pretty sure. All right, everybody, well, it is time for our final commercial break. We will catch you on the other side.
Mallory: Hey, folks, did you know the number one way you can help us grow is by telling your friends about the show. Hey, that rhymed. New shows like ours thrive on the power of word of mouth. Which is why I am here now asking you to please tell a friend about freaks and creaks. We've got an intro episode that is perfect for dipping a toe into before fully committing. You can share it with Bit ly freakspod. Thank you for listening and spreading the word. Now back to the episode.
Cody: And we're back. Dawson and Pacey bring a blacked out Joey home to make um, sure the coast is clear. Pacey goes to the house to make sure no one's awake as Dawson places Joey on the couch. Pacey accidentally wakes up the baby and he tries many different ways to put it back to sleep on the couch. Dawson tells the Four Loco to Joey that he knows things have been really hard and that their relationship has been pretty weird as of late, but that he'll always be there for her. Joey opens her eyes and kisses the surprise Dawson and then passes out cold. Dawson finds Pacey who is reenacting the plot and performances of The English Patient to put the baby to sleep and informs him it's time to go.
James: Oh, um, this is it. This is it.
Stella: Ah, Captain, for me, um, when I saw Pacey doing his English accent and putting the baby to sleep and calling.
Cody: Him Little Man because your favorite movie is Little Man right?
Mallory: Now, I know that The English Patient is supposed to be a boring movie, but I would listen to a book on tape narrative by Pacey of this book with these accents.
James: I wonder if Joshua Jackson has gone on to do a book on tape and audible of The English Patient. I happened to capture this clip. It's titled hashtag team Pacey.
Cody: Oh, uh, yeah, that's nice.
Stella: My heart just melted.
James: That is the moment for me when I was like, fuck it, I'm on this train, baby. I can't get off now. There's something so sweet about his interactions with baby Alexander. It's so sweet. I, uh, feel like what I'm talking about earlier on where it's like he's finally doing something for somebody else that has no impact to him. He's purely doing it for other people.
Mallory: Yeah. And I thought it kind of made sense for his character because we know he has siblings and so this didn't really spook him having to take care of having to be the one that's taking responsibility for this baby. And I don't know if he's the baby and his family, but it was kind of like this moment where we see him and it seems comfortable.
James: Yeah.
Mallory: Uh, he knew what he was doing, like trying milk, trying a pacifier. Those were things that was accurate.
James: Yeah. He didn't seem lost. If you put me in that situation, I'm going to be like, um, do you want to hear about King Gizard and Elizabeth Cyborg who's trying to take over the universe. I'm not going to be able to figure out what to do here. It would be like a comedy of errors. You'd come in like the version of this episode that has James taking care of the baby. You'd come in and he'd have like a diaper on his head and he'd be like, I don't know what happened. So he knows his way around a baby.
Cody: But I think the biggest takeaway of this, though, is just comparing him with Dawson and how Dawson never listens to Jenny or anything. And the fact that fact that Pacey remembered this detail about the English Patient and the baby, it's extremely important to this character.
James: It made me tear up when I realized it. This is after my third watch, ladies and gentlemen. I've seen this episode three times at this point and I still didn't get it. But when I finally got it, it made me cry. So, uh, Pacey actually cares about other people? Yes.
Mallory: And we got to see that moment where it clicked for him because he's thinking, what next? What should I try next? And, oh, that's what I should try. We get to see that.
James: Yeah. He remembered if he put the baby to sleep, it's going to work this time. And he does it from memory, which is also pretty cool.
Stella: Pretty cute.
Mallory: Yeah.
Stella: Uh, okay, what else?
Cody: Um, well, probably the biggest thing is that Joey kissed.
James: Yeah.
Mallory: Dawson thought this is a good time to talk to Joey. He doesn't have to confront anything because.
Cody: She'S not going to remember.
Stella: Yeah, he's like, I don't know if now is a good time. Wait, maybe it's the perfect time.
Mallory: Yeah. Don't remember.
Cody: A great development for his character and the fact that this is how he handles life.
Mallory: Right.
Cody: As long as there's no repercussions to my actions, I'm going to go along with it.
Stella: And also, Dawson says, joey, if you ever need anything, I'm here for you. And like, all this shit. And what about earlier when you just fucking ditched her?
James: Yeah, as long as it's convenient to me, Joey, I promise I will maybe be there. That's what he should have said.
Mallory: I, uh, thought it was interesting, too, that Joey suddenly it's like she fully comes to for this kiss. She's like, out and then just becomes conscious enough for this pretty intense kiss moment and then just passes out.
James: You know?
Mallory: That drunk is so bad too. Yeah. I don't know.
James: Yeah, when she's regurgitating, uh, orders at the Ice House, she's like, more tartar sauce for table five or something. Has any of the writing staff been drunk before? That doesn't happen. I'm not like, asleep at night after a long night drinking. Like, oh, God, I got to get that data analytics report in on whatever client what was their KP? That's not what happens, but, um, yeah.
Mallory: It might be what's happening in your head, but she's like, saying it. Yeah, I guess it was a way to express that she is overworked. Uh, yeah.
Cody: With television, with film, you're writing more about audience expectations, more so than the real thing. So I wonder if they're thinking like, well, teenagers don't know what drinking is. Same thing with like, there's so many things in media when people take psychedelics and they're like, Whoa, I saw a dragon. That doesn't happen when you take acid or mushrooms or anything. But that's what people expect to see because they've seen it in media.
James: Right.
Cody: So I wonder if they're just like, yeah, kids don't know what happens when you get drunk. So let's just have her ripping on Ice House orders.
James: And she thinks she's still at work. She's so drunk she's traveled back in time.
Cody: M back at the Leeries, Mitch admits that he doesn't believe trying new things is the answer. Insisting that they've neglected the old things, he puts on a tape of generic middle aged white people, suburban soft rock on the boom box and brings her in for an intimate slow dance. When Gayle tries to kiss Mitch, he stops her saying, one thing at a time. And they go back to dancing, and we get a nice little crane shot to finish off the sequence.
James: Did you guys see the deleted scene for this one? No.
Cody: What happened?
James: They do a slow zoom on Mr. Manmy, and he's wearing a chastity belt.
Cody: Oh, my God.
James: Yeah. And, uh, he's got the key on a chain around his neck and he says, uh, uh uh.
Cody: Oh, my God. Why did they delete that?
James: I don't know.
Cody: That's so weird.
James: It's on YouTube. You can find it if you really look.
Cody: What do you have to search?
James: Just search.
Cody: Would I search? Man meet chastity belt.
James: It's more like the neural link. You just have to really be thinking about the scene and it will present itself to you.
Cody: That's cool. I love Google. This song was really cool.
James: Yeah. Ah. Was it an actual song? Yeah.
Mallory: Ah, it's by Chantal Creviazuk. Um, the name of the song is Green Apples.
James: Of course it is.
Stella: I remember that there were lyrics saying, cotton candy.
Cody: That's nice. It really felt like if you went up to AI and said, give me generic soft rock, old people music, this is what would get pumped out.
James: Definitely. M yes.
Cody: The thing with their relationship about how it started off with sexual, and now they're like, one thing at a time. What are the old ways? This is the only thing where I feel like these characters are also getting refreshed, kind of like pacey. Um, because in my mind, the old ways was their extremely rampant taped life.
Mallory: Right.
James: Well, and even when they're talking about remember that whole chapstick episode? They had like, 15 hot make out sessions in their first couple of days. And clearly the old ways is a very physical, hot and heavy relationship. So. They've probably skipped this whole emotional intimacy phase of their relationship and gotten straight into this physical thing that has been what's really kind of kept their relationship alive, at least in Mr. Man meets eyes. But as we came to find out, it's not actually what is keeping their relationship going. So I thought it was kind of a sweet scene as cheesy and dumb as it was. Um, let's go back and no more touchy touchy only dancy time.
Cody: Yeah, which is probably the therapist neglected to say no more touchy touchy.
James: Yeah.
Cody: Uh uh, it's Dennis Meddry from traffic park.
James: Maybe that is who they went to. Maybe that's the problem is they went to Dennis Meddry.
Cody: Not a good therapist. We got Dawson here. As Dawson rose himself in Pacey home, he admits that Joey had full on kissed him before they left. Pacey points out that Dawson is oblivious to Joey's longing, passionate love to which Dawson deflects, saying that what he has with Jen is love and what he has with Joey is friendship. Stacy appropriately surmises that Dawson doesn't know the difference between love and friendship.
Stella: I got lots to say.
James: Do it.
Mallory: Okay.
James: Go off queen.
Stella: Here I go. Um, okay, first off, just so happy to see another rowing scene. Yeah, I just want more rowing scenes. Please. Please. Okay, so I know we already talked about this before. Again, Dawson seeming totally oblivious that Joey has feelings for him and that kiss doesn't mean anything. Yeah, what a ding dong. Um, okay. Childlike view on love. Him thinking that love just means stuff that's exciting and new is so bizarre and I don't know, I thought it was an interesting juxtaposition where we see the parents who are trying to do these new things to rekindle their love, um, and realizing that that doesn't mean love. And starting with the basics and understanding each other, friendship is like a very strong ground to build a relationship off of.
James: Um, it's kind of beautiful in a way, right? Because like, what we are seeing when Mr. Manmy comes and talks to Manmade Jr. He's like, look, you have to build a relationship based off of mutual respect, right? Like you have to understand that there are going to be times that you feel misunderstood or you feel hurt, but it's about getting past that because what's ultimately important is about being with your partner. It's kind of what he's trying to tell him then. And then when we see in this scene, the previous scene before this one is Mr. Manmeet and Mrs. Manmade reconciling and instead what we see from Dawson and Pacey is him essentially just being like, man, isn't love cool? Dude, I'm super in love right now, bro. You have no idea how in love I am, bro. It's like sick. And Pace, he's like, no, actually, I don't think you know what love is if you think this is what you're really experiencing.
Stella: Mhm, it's just so weird. Like, seeing Dawson describe his relationship with Joey and the way he's talking, he's kind of smiling and he's like, we just like, get each other. We don't even have to say things, we just understand. I don't know, he just seems so clueless.
Mallory: And then Pacey points out that look, right now we're sitting here talking about Joey, not Jen. Did you see it?
Cody: It's a great watcher.
James: Yeah.
Cody: To Dawson's delight, he finds Billy packing up all of his belongings and he expresses that Jen insinuated that she has chosen Dawson over him. Billy threatens Dawson that he could come back at any time and that, uh, he better treat her well. As, uh, Dawson goes to close the blinds, he sees Jen pacing back and forth on his family's boat dock.
James: I really wish that Billy was like Dawson. Just so you know, I can be here in three and a half hours if I really want to, but I will need a place to stay when I come back. What do you mean? Like, you clearly are not willing to make the drive when it's inconvenient to you, buddy. So are you really going to come down later if you need to?
Cody: I mean, again, like, them being the two sides of the same coin, it's all just about power and all these people care about and so he didn't care, like, if he won by Jen, his whole thing is like, I'm going to come back and beat the hell out of you if you don't treat.
James: Well, don't hurt my property. Yeah, exactly. It's my property. And if you hurt her, then what does that mean?
Cody: I really hope this is the end of this character.
James: It's not.
Mallory: We know it's not. I think he might be in the next step.
Stella: I remember, I do know her.
Cody: Uh, I don't even know where I.
James: Am right now at the end of our episode, but I believe Billy will be making a return to Dawson's crew very soon. Oh, uh, yeah.
Cody: Dawson approaches Jen, ready to apologize. But Jen backs away from him, describing that her life in Capeside is far too familiar to that of hey, I'm walking here. New York. She finally breaks up with him. Thank God. Despite his pleading, insisting on putting herself first, dawson angrily conveys that he'll find someone else. But as he storms off, he looks back at her and when he goes back to walking away, she turns to look at him, missing each other's glances by mere seconds.
Stella: Okay, so, uh, I hated all of this.
James: Dawson, actually, I didn't hate the part where she broke up, but besides that.
Stella: I have hated Dawson this whole time. No words. He is just so awful. Um.
Mallory: Should we need some audio clips?
James: Here what he says as he walks up to Jen, expecting that she is like, ecstatic to speak to him. Right, because in his mind she's like, yeah, she chose me. I'm the um, alpha bro. Like, she loves me. And he says, for someone who views himself as a tragically nice guy, I spent an awful lot of time apologizing.
Mallory: You fucking vomit all over the place.
Stella: Uh, that made me sick to my stomach. Like, fuck you, Dawson. Fuck you.
James: Sure spend a lot of time apologizing. Well, maybe it's because you're fucking terrible, you fucking asshole.
Cody: It's amazing. Yeah, this scene is awful, but it was the best. Like, I loved Jen being like, no, dude, you finally and he finally gets repercussions for his shitty actions. She breaks up with him.
James: God, yes.
Cody: Jen, get an agency. Loved it.
Stella: That line alone was awful. And then he just continues to be an asshole. Just straight up asshole.
James: Yeah. When she breaks up with him, there's a moment where you see his eyes change and it felt like incredible acting. I would like to commend James fan because he plays this scene too good, almost. There's a moment where after she says, what? I'm about to play a clip here, but he goes in to grab her and stop her and he's like, hey, hold on. We don't need to talk about this now. We can talk about it tomorrow. No, dude, I think it's done. Yeah.
Cody: And to, uh, say, agree with what you said, uh, very critical of Dawson as a character, but James Vanderbie, this has made me feel like, oh, they know what they're doing, James. Sandra Beak is killing this performance. He is just like the Patrick Bateman of American Psycho. Just like in that same way as Christian Bale. He knows that he's playing this quote unquote nice guy. I can't imagine anyone else doing this performance as grotesquely as him. Like, he's perfecting it.
James: Yeah. I really hope for the upcoming, um, remake of Dawson's Creek that we have willed into existence that we will be writing for. But I really hope that they either get Guillermo del Toro to direct it because what they really need is like a horror spin on this because Dawson, to your point, Cody, he is going to be a serial killer. Like, he is one step away from just going way off the deep end here.
Cody: Totally. Yeah. And I've brought it up before, but watch the Contra Points video on Incels because that does a great breakdown of why this is like a pretty modern take on m modern masculinity and, ah, why men do feel the way that they feel and why this is so widespread and has been going on for far too long. This is such a weird archetype that, um, is extremely unfortunate that is not dead at this point.
Mallory: And enjoy joke about being a mass murder like a serial killer at the beginning.
James: I'm going to play this clip here. Um, it is Dawson's reaction to Jen breaking up with him and I just thought this was something that I wanted to revel in for the rest of my life. Every time I'm feeling sad. I'm just going to play this because it makes me feel good. Let's take a listen.
Stella: And now I have to say the same thing to you.
James: He did not see that coming whatsoever. He was expecting to be like, given a bouquet of roses and a sash that says, you won and you are the best. And he's like, wait a second, hold on. What?
Mallory: They what?
James: I love it.
Cody: Yeah.
James: This is all I needed. Is Dawson getting a little bit of a reality check?
Cody: Absolutely.
James: HM.
Stella: Yeah. I didn't write down all the things that he said, but he just kind of like, goes off. Um, I think when he's walking away he says something like, ah, something about her moving in and toying with his emotions and then leaving.
James: I have the line, you can't just make me fall in love with you and then just bail. Motherfucker. She didn't make you do anything.
Mallory: I don't know when she said this, but she had a very sad moment in line here when she said, I'm pretty unlucky, um, unfortunate it and I'm still way too unhappy most of the time.
James: Uh oh my God. Uh, look, I will say one thing. She feels like I really couldn't really follow her reasoning here. I'm hoping some of you understand because I was like, is she saying that she needs to be alone to punish herself or is she saying she needs to be alone to experience life? I really couldn't figure out which way she was trying to kind of like, go with it.
Mallory: She called her, I think, uh, at some point she said she has always found it easier to escape into a relationship than to face life on her own. So I think she's saying that she needs to be single. I mean, that's what it came off to me.
Cody: And I think with her being like, she mentions the fact that this is the same situation from New York has followed me to KSite. And I think she is recognizing, like, oh, you are just like all the men from New York. Just a different version of it. Nicer m quote. Nicer.
James: But the same intentions are beneath the surface. Like, if Dawson is being honest with himself and with Jen, what is he expecting to get out of this relationship? Sex. That's what he is ultimately playing for here and that's what he has kind of been articulating over the last several episodes, is like, god, I just want some physical intimacy from my girlfriend. Granted, Joey has really been kind of like, pushing that along, but still, like, Dawson is no different from these guys who just got her drunk to have sex with her. He's just dressed up a little bit nicer.
Stella: Yeah. And then when he walks away, uh, he says something like, she's talking about, one day you'll have this great girlfriend, I'll come back to you and you'll be like, I'm with someone else. And he says something like, yeah, and she'll be nothing like you.
Cody: Just like low hanging fruit to just be like he doesn't give a shit about her. He does not know what love is. She's just an object. So, uh, he's just taking everything as ammo that he can use against her to make her feel better. He does not care about this relationship at all. Really?
James: No, I totally agree with you. But I think to our point around media literacy, he's just doing what he's seen in movies.
Cody: Oh, absolutely, yeah.
James: Oh, you break up with me? Well, fuck you. I don't need you anyway. I'm going to get a better girl anyway.
Cody: Totally. Totally.
James: Even now, he's not actually being authentic. I mean, he's clearly hurt. I'm not saying he's not hurt, but he's hurt for the wrong reasons. He's hurt because it's like an ego thing, in my opinion. I don't think it's ultimately really about the emotions or the feelings he has for Jen. Because I don't think that he even knows what feelings he has for Jen. Just like Pacey was saying, you don't know the difference between love and friendship.
Stella: Well, as he, uh, walks away towards the end of the scene, we get a great, wonderful, amazing needle drop.
James: Yes.
Stella: Evaporated by Benfold Five. And when this song came on, cody and I were watching the episode. I got full body chills.
Cody: Um, she just turned into one giant goosebump.
Stella: Uh, five.
James: There's something about his music that is email without being email, if that makes sense. Like, he's not doing angsty, whiny, singing. It's not like Thursday or taking back Sunday where it's like but it is so emotional and it just hits you right in the field, that piano.
Stella: Yeah.
James: I wonder if that is something that is a byproduct of us all being a kid and growing up with Benfolds and having his music in these different I guess, actually. What's all your relationship with Ben Folds like? For me, he was huge. His entire discovery. Benfold. Benfolds by everything. I love Ben Folds. Same for everybody. Not a big fan.
Cody: I don't have anything against him. And I just have never done a deep dive. I heard Elliott Smith and I went, yeah, that's mine. Like, I don't need anything else. I'm just going to stick on that train for a very long time.
Stella: Ben Folds Five was a very big part of my youth. Um, my dad and I, um, would say, like, growing up, he and I spent a lot of time together. And music was like a very big part of our relationship. And, um, we spent a lot of time listening to Benfolds Five and Ben Folds. And we went and saw him together in San Francisco. And it's just like a very special place in my heart. Um, I love him so much.
Cody: One thing I do love about Benfold is I remember when the first jerk, um, off webcam websites were coming out like the Chatter Baits. There was like, one is there.
James: Uh.
Cody: Was an Omega, I think, but Ben Folds would do a thing for his encores where he would project Omega and they would cycle through and they would land on someone and he would just make up a song on the spot about the person that would land on them. There's like a bunch of fun videos, uh, like on YouTube I'm sure if you search that, uh, show that.
James: And on that note, are we ready to move on? Have we gotten episode eight out of our system?
Cody: I'd say so.
James: Well then that means it's time for ratings. Who would like to go first?
Stella: Um, I'm going to say a three. Almost gave it a two and a half but um, I'm giving it a three just because I love Pacey. Uh, uh, I don't know, just felt like kind of a snooze for me up until the last like ten or 15 minutes. Um, but yeah, I loved all the Pacey development and I'm really excited to see what happens next with Pacey and Joey. Honestly, it was fun seeing Joey, uh, and Pacey's dynamic a little bit so I'm excited to see more of that.
James: Yeah, I agree.
Mallory: Um, I'll go next. I'm going to give it a four and a half. Um, I agree that on the Pacey thing, uh, this episode brought me hope for his trajectory. Um, it was also nice to see Jen standing up for herself in her decision to be single. Uh, but I think this breakup might be short lived. Yeah, um, it's going to be interesting to see what goes down in the meantime with that. Uh, I feel like there has to be at least one episode where Dawson is looking for someone who he thinks is deserving of him. The uh, question is, will he trade in his nice guy ways for bad boy vibes to then back, who knows? Um, also at some point Jen is going to find out that Joey kiss Dawson will m. That be something that puts more of a divide between Joey and Jen's friendship.
Stella: Um.
Mallory: Wondering about that. Um, and then also, uh, all this complaining from Joey about the baby makes me wonder if she is going to, like James mentioned earlier, move in with a friend, get out of this situation at, uh, the Bessy Body Baby house. I don't know, it's just like, brought up a lot of things that I'm excited to see where some things go.
Stella: I, um, just had a funny thought. Um, you know how sometimes in teen movies they'll do like the hot girl makeover like nerdy girl makeover into like, oh, she's like a hot girl name. I was just imagining like a makeover for a Dawson and turning into like a bad boy.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: Oh my God.
Stella: Really want to see that.
James: I'll go next. On that note, um, um, I created a very scientific, very mathematical ratings calculator for myself. Of course, we haven't really talked about this in my day job. Um, well, I'm a performance analyst, so I look at data and numbers making spreadsheets all the time. And in this case, what I did is I created, let's see, it is a nine metric, uh, index that factors in multiple different things and gives me my rating based off of how I rate this. Some of the metrics are pacing, writing, relatability, paranormal presence, of course, that's weighted a little heavier. And then the elusive J index, which is how much I enjoyed each individual episode.
Mallory: Say, for James.
James: Maybe it is, um, what else is Jazzmin? For this episode, I punched in all of my different individual ratings, and what I have generated is a 3.25 out of five, which I feel like it's actually pretty representative of how I actually feel about this. I really, really did personally enjoy this episode. It gave me everything I've been looking for. There were some big problems. I would say what I rated this episode lowest on is the paranormal presence.
Mallory: Sorry, we didn't hear much about that.
Cody: Really.
James: It's basically just bite me. And then, uh, the fisherman on the shore being a defender of the oceans. Beyond that, I felt like the pacing was a little bit chunky in this episode. Like, it really started and stopped. There'd be long periods where we didn't have a whole lot going on. And then there would be a series of scenes like the house party where a ton is happening, but at the same time, it's really padded out. It was just kind uh, of strange. So, overall, 3.25 out of five. But if I were to say how much I left this, it's a five out of five hashtag team pacey.
Cody: Yeah, for me, I would say four out of five. I wish I had the metrics of a nine into your system to get, like, a better number, but, uh, yeah, four out of five for me, I think for the characters, an absolute grand slam. This is everything that I've been wanting. I think they're finally flushing out these characters. It's more so that everybody is getting their own agency, people are living for their own lives instead of just like, being there. Just for Dawson's development, which so far has been very little, only to the fact that ostensibly, ah, he is always right or correct at the end of every episode. There's never an actual challenge to who he is. Finally, with Jen breaking up with him, it solidifies. Thankfully, uh, that the writing for the show was showing. Like, this nice guy thing is not good. And, uh, the writers actually have something to say about this character. And it's a coming of age story about someone that is very toxic and hopefully we're going to see over time that he learns from these mistakes and grows from it. Uh, and again, like, we've said, Jen is an actual character. She has her own, uh, agency and finally, Pacey is becoming his own person. And even Joey like seeing someone do something. Let me backtrack a little bit. I think what we talked about already is with media literacy, even someone that's morally gray or outright bad can be a great character and it gives them depth and realism as opposed to characterization, slat and broad and hourly explicit in trying to make someone likable or villainous. And here we get that, like, Joey makes the wrong choice of drinking to subdue her feelings, but that doesn't make her a bad person. Now she's becoming fully realized, right? Jen makes she's made, up to this point, a bad decision in dating Dawson because she's trying to fill this void in her life and she ended up dating just the same person on the opposite side of that coin. And again, with Dawson, I thought we were finally flushing out this character and he is a bad person, but I think this character is very interesting. And, um, again, I do not like Dawson, but I think very flushed out like this made things way more interesting and intricate with his characterization. So I'm excited to see even more repercussions of him being a dick wad.
James: Definitely.
Cody: I thought it was great.
James: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like we all really enjoyed this episode regardless of our rating. Well, maybe Stella is the one person you had moments where you enjoyed it, but overall, yeah, I kind of agree. Like, Dawson is a total shithole. It was really cool to see him get talk to in a way that felt befitting of him, but yeah, there's some issues in this episode. Yeah.
Cody: Clunky. Uh, still, things are way too convenient. Thank God Dawson looked out that window at the right time. Shit like that.
James: I'm just very happy that we got Pacey. Uh, I honestly really am surprised that we got some resolution for Pacey. I was pretty prepared to just hate Pacey for a long time on this show and I'm really excited to see if this has matched next episode for the remainder of the season into the rest of the show. Like, is Pacey now just a good character? Have they finally hit the bullseye that they've just been throwing darts at a board? Or are they still going to get more shifts from Pacey? I'm really curious about that.
Mallory: Can we please see Pacey's house, his siblings, parents?
Cody: Give us more basic all cops. Uh, and another thing too, is I love that this wasn't just like wrapped up in a bow at the end and just like, that's the lesson. Bye bye. Everyone's complicated. Everyone is kind of fucked up from the repercussions of these past episodes.
James: It kind of feels like the first time we've gotten a cliffhanger a little bit. Yeah, every episode has kind of been with the exception of maybe the last.
Mallory: Episode was a bit of a cliffhanger.
James: But for the most part, I'd say on the average, every episode gets wrapped up in a bow to your point. Well, should we do recommendations here?
Cody: Let's do it.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: Who wants to go first?
Cody: Okay.
James: Mao.
Mallory: Um, I'm going to recommend one of my favorite podcasts that I listened to, this weekly. Um, it's called dress to the history of fashion. Going with the fashion theme here. Um, it is two fashion historians who, quote, explore the social and cultural history behind the who, what, when of why we wear. Um, their research is super in depth. They always have the most fascinating guests. Um, I'm going to give an on theme episode recommendation, which is a twopart episode that they did last year called the 90s an Interview with Colleen Hill. Um, Colleen Hill is a curator of costume and accessories at the Fashion Institute of Technology. She wrote a book called Reinvention and Restlessness Fashion in the 90s. Um, they talked to her about grunge and minimalism and lots of other things that are 90s related. So that's a good one. Uh, they do a Halloween episode, which is costuming horror West Craven's Nightmare on Elm Street with Lisa Jensen, who is the costume designer for Nightmare on Elm Street.
Cody: Oh, that's awesome.
Mallory: Yeah. Um, they also do a couple of other favorites are, uh, DeGenered Fashion, which is an interview with Alek, uh, Vademen, who's a gender nonconforming performance artist. And then there's another one called the Red Dress Embroidery Project, which, uh, is about, uh, collaboration, empowering women artists from around the world, uh, to share their stories through embroidery with a dress. This one dress that kind of travels the world and gets different embroideries by artists.
James: Awesome.
Mallory: Take a listen.
Cody: That's extremely cool.
Mallory: Yeah, I love this podcast.
Stella: It's great.
James: I listen to it a lot. Uh, yeah. Just absorbing it through osmosis. And it is very interesting. And I say that as somebody who is kind of on the outside of these.
Mallory: They are some of my favorite podcast hosts. They have the best, um, chemistry.
Cody: Yeah.
James: Really good.
Stella: All right. Uh, I am going to recommend some Benfolds, uh, I m kind of go through waves of revisiting, um, his old albums, and every time I do, I just feel so happy and sad because the music is really emotional. Um, but I was going to recommend the self titled album Ben Folds Five and then also whatever amen. Those are his, ah, first two albums with Benfold Five and then, um, his first solo album, Rock in the Suburbs, um, is a solid listen.
James: Yeah.
Stella: Definitely recommend Turn it up.
Mallory: Put on.
Stella: Your headphones or in your car or whatever. Just blast those tunes.
James: Yeah. Rock in the Suburbs is one of those albums that whenever I'm in kind of like a funk, whenever I need a little pick me up, I'll put that album on and there's just something about it that gets me going. It's fun, it's silly, it's serious.
Mallory: You can sing along.
James: Is Ben Folds. The Billy Joel of our generation. No disrespect to Ben Folds at all.
Mallory: Because Billy I love Billy Joel.
Cody: Uh, is he a stinker?
James: Well, I mean, he's Billy Joel. He's just easy to make fun of more than anything. I don't mean there's nothing wrong or problematic with him, but I do mean, like, he's corny. Did he go to Vietnam to write, uh, Ganaxaigan? I don't think so. Does he know anything about sailing and living that life? I don't think so. But anyway yeah, I totally agree. Benfold is amazing. Love him. I will go next. All right. Um, my recommendation this week, um, I don't know, it's pretty obscure. You might not know. Uh, I have an album to recommend. It's called Fishing for Fishies by King Gizzard and the lizard wizard.
Cody: Holy shit.
Mallory: Wait, is this number three?
James: Yeah, this is the first time. What are you guys talking about? First time?
Mallory: I'm kidding. You've talked about Gizzi.
Cody: This is the first time I've talked.
James: About King Gizzen the loser. It's an incredible album. Well, yeah, they're an Australian psychedelic rock band. Cody, thank you so much for asking, but, um, this album is probably, in my opinion, it's like the most bluesy, kind of, uh, I would say almost approachable album of their discography. Um, in this one, it really does have a little bit of everything. It's got this really incredible songwriting. It's got strange time signatures. It features heavily a protein based cyborg who would like to end the universe and kill all of the humans. But mostly this album examines humanity's role in the environment. And it really, really has an interesting viewpoint. I would highly recommend the song the Bird song. It has an incredibly beautiful it's honestly one of the most beautiful songs I've ever heard. And I say that with absolutely no hyperbole. I love it. There is a lyric in the chorus that is, does a bird know its name? And that is one of the most existential lyrics I have ever heard. It makes me think so deeply every time I hear this. And that is not a meme. I really mean that. I just think the song is so incredible. So please go take a listen to this album. Beyond that, I would also like to recommend Capeside 20 on Instagram at Capeside 20. Go check them out. They're an incredible follow for anybody who is interested in Dawson's Creek. Um, filming locations, shooting production, anything. Um, I imagine all of you listening are fans of this. Go take a look at their feed. They have recently kicked off a series going through the title sequence and as of the recording of this episode, also the pilot episode where they're going through and looking at locations back in 1998 and then looking at them now, 20 plus years later, um, it's really cool. They actually sent us some previews to look at. And in downtown Wilmington, that Main Street sequence, which is featured heavily in the pilot episode outside of the realtor movie theater where they're going in that pilot sequence. So cool to see then and now and how much it's changed and stayed the same. So, yeah, at Capeside 20. Go take a look.
Mallory: M. I love fishing for fishies as well. It's true. As much as I hear the King Gizzard music, it is one of my favorites as well.
James: That's fun.
Mallory: Uh, yeah.
James: Can't go wrong.
Mallory: Can't go wrong.
Cody: Well, it's me. I just finished The Last of US, part Two last night. So my rock this week is The Last of US franchise. It is a semi exclusive video game series developed by Naughty Dog. And in front of my can tell, Neil Druckman is the lead on narrative, and I think he created it. Um, the premises you play as a few different characters traversing a postapocalyptic world years after a zombie like outbreak, navigating different sets of communities and cults in search of a home and possibly a cure. The vast character depth in world building have made me more emotionally connected with this universe than in any game I can even remember, and arguably has had more of an impact on me than most modern TV series. It's immersive, it's gorgeous, it has great gameplay, and major kudos to featuring, uh, queer and bipolar characters that are rich and nuanced. I had missed this franchise by like a decade because I haven't known a PlayStation, and after James Graciously gifted me a PS Four, I dove in. And as they have just, uh, announced a PlayStation Five remake of the first game, it seems like a perfect time to jump on board. Uh, if you've been sleeping under a rock like me, or have, for whatever reason, been on the fence on the series and anything I said seems, uh, like it's up your alley, I would legitimately say it's worth buying a PlayStation just to play this game. And if gaming isn't your thing I know this is going to sound insane, but there are full playthroughs of both games on YouTube and it's cinematic and rich enough to hook you, guaranteed. And also fun that Craig Mason, who did Chernobyl for HBO, uh, is going to be the showrunner along with the creator of video game for a TV series based on The Last of US. It will be the last of us. And it's going to star Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey as the leads.
James: Wow.
Cody: Very excited for that show to ruin me just as much as video games have.
Stella: Yeah. I, um, sometimes have been watching Cody play and I was very enticed and, um, it was really thrilling to watch. Um, and at one point I looked up the plot of what happened.
Cody: You did? Yeah. Oh my god.
Stella: So I knew the ending before, but yeah, if you're not into gaming, I mean, I would maybe check out the YouTube.
James: Definitely.
Cody: I posted on Instagram a while back when I finished the first game because it just blew my mind. I was like, oh my god. I just have to say it was so great. And a lot of people reached out to me and one person messaged, uh, me. And they're like, I don't own a PlayStation. But I watched an entire, like 20 hours play through of The Last of US Part Two just because it was so good. It's not good. It's great.
James: It is. And when it came out, it really was like, very pioneering in the cinematic video game experience. It really feels like you're watching a movie almost as much as you're playing a video game, except that the movie that you're watching, you are in charge of the protagonist. And it's just so cool. Uh, the production company or studio that made it naughty Dog if you aren't aware of who they are. They also made the Uncharted Game series, which is one of the biggest, best game, uh, franchises in Sony's catalog. It very much follows like the Indiana Jones adventure style. So when the last one came out, I was like, what? How are they going to do this? And they completely killed it. It's amazing. Um, yeah, I love that. I'm so glad that you have gotten some enjoyment out of that.
Cody: Yeah. It's funny to say that. I'm going to recommend, I think, one of the most critically acclaimed games ever made. It's like godfather. You might like it a little known thing like this. But I mean, there has to be someone out there like me totally, who just missed it. And for whatever reason, and I cannot reiterate this enough, go buy a PlayStation. Like, do it. Play this game.
James: Tony needs your money.
Cody: They're a small indie.
Stella: Next, uh, episode of Dawson.
James: Yeah, episode nine.
Stella: Yeah. So it looks like Jen's old boyfriend takes Dawson and Pacey to a nightclub.
James: A baby.
Stella: Upon finding herself the subject of some nasty rumors, joey strikes back.
Mallory: Is this with Dawson rumor or being drunk with Thor rumor?
James: I bet it's Thor.
Stella: Yeah, he was going to like, spread some about that.
Cody: Oh my god, I hope not. I didn't want Billy to show up again, but I definitely don't want limp biscuit Thor to show up.
James: I think he's going to. I wonder unless it's going to be like, when detention? We were like, oh, I wonder what could happen. How's this going to be related? And then it was completely unrelated. It's something totally new. Maybe this is one of those things. Maybe something completely unrelated is going to.
Mallory: Happen if they're going to a nightclub or are they going to have fake IDs? Good question. This will be interesting.
James: So they're going on a road trip somewhere. Do you think they're going to big city?
Mallory: Are they going on a road trip or are they going to a Caste nightclub?
James: Well, the episode is titled Road Trip, so I'm assuming oh, I didn't see that. Also known as in the company of men. Interesting. Which I'm not.
Mallory: Okay, boys, here with that.
Cody: Ah, but this is literally boys night out. Yes, totally.
Stella: Because Billy's going to be like, hey.
Mallory: Dawson, I'm single and Pace has nothing to do. So Billy is going to swoop in and take the guys out to a nightclub.
James: Whoa, whoa. Are Dawson and Billy going to become best friends?
Cody: That sucks.
James: Fox.
Mallory: Uh, Dawson's going to become the bad boy.
Stella: Oh, my God.
Mallory: Oh, my God.
Stella: What if Billy, like, picks out an.
Mallory: Outfit for Dawson for the nightclub?
James: What if? Okay, so we've all seen Spiderman Three now.
Cody: Are you going to bring up Bully Maguire?
Mallory: Yeah.
James: What if Dawson becomes an eyeliner wearing.
Cody: Emo, finger guns, dancing?
Mallory: Are they all going to wear Berrymore collars?
James: Oh, God, that would be so cool if they all showed up in their 70s outfits.
Mallory: There's going to be some good nightclub.
Cody: Out there we're watching this night.
Mallory: Yes.
Stella: I can't wait. I'm so excited.
James: Everybody just take a look at your feed tomorrow morning. There might be another episode. We might just have to do an emergency recording as soon as we get off of this call here. And by call, I mean in person recording. We're actually all in the Sabre.
Mallory: What music is going to be going in the night?
James: Glow well, shares, I believe, hasn't come out yet, so we're not going to get that. But getting jittery with it.
Cody: Chicken, uh, cherry cola. Could be making a reappearance. That sounds like a club beat.
James: Definitely.
Stella: I can't wait.
James: Uh, well, we are so excited. All right, well, um, I guess on that note, thank you so much for listening. Um, if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to our show so you never miss an episode in the future. And join us as we continue to set sail through the tumultuous waters of Dawson's Creek one episode at a time. If you want more Freaks content, please visit our website, freaksandcreeks.com and find us on Instagram at freaksandcreekspod or right to us, our email is show@freaksandcreeks.com. Until next time on Freaksandcreeks. Bye.