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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
I've got a dear friend, old friend here,
Nicola Hepburn from Equine Learning in
the UK, Warwickshire, Stratford-on-Avon,
and she's one of the originals.
She's someone who's been at it for a very
long time, even though she only looks 21.
She's actually been getting
younger since I've, I've known her.
It, it's a mark of how long Nicky's been
doing this, that there was even a comp-
that she could even name a company or
find a website with equine learning in it.
Now, you'd be hard put to find
that because everyone and their
dog is doing equine learning.
But back in the day, when it was
something new and pioneering Nicky was
one of the people who was, you know, in,
in the pioneering days and has really
made a go of it in terms of helping
people with special needs find their
way vocationally not just as children,
not just in the early years, but into
the job market, et cetera, et cetera.
College, all of that.
So she ⦠It's really stood the test
of time, and I think we have a lot
to learn from how she did it, and,
you know, how we can emulate it.
So Nicky, thanks so much for coming on.
Nicola Hepburn: Thank you for having me.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it's such a pleasure.
Please tell us, you know, who are you?
What do you do?
Why do you do it?
Nicola Hepburn: Okay, so, that's
quite a lot to answer in one go.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, we've got a
few, we've got a, we've got a podcast
in which you can answer it, so.
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
Well, I started equine
learning back in 2008.
So I'd been started a community
project prior to that in 2006 where
I was, you know, learning about
equine-facilitated learning from 2005.
I went on a training course.
And it's just something that
really resonated with me.
It was one of those moments where
I was working a corporate job
that I wasn't really enjoying,
and I saw this training course.
I'd recently bought a horse who I
was looking for new ways to train,
and I started getting into a bit
of natural horsemanship which
I guess is just horsemanship.
I'm not sure I like the
term natural horsemanship.
And I came across a course working with
equine-facilitated learning, and it was
a very new thing in the UK at this point.
And it just was like a light bulb moment.
I just thought, "That's
really interesting.
That's something I'd really like
to do," 'cause I was really looking
for a career change at the time.
And I managed to fundraise to get a place
on the training course, and I went along
and did this initial week-long training
course in equine-facilitated learning.
And then it was life-changing for me.
It was just something that resonated
with me so much because I'd had ponies
as a child, which I'd loved, and
it had been a really safe space for
me as a child, being with my pony.
It was never something
that I did competitively.
It was always something that I did for
the love of it and for the feeling I got
from being around the horses and you know,
just the connection you have with a pony.
That was what it was always around for me.
So I think that's why equine-facilitated
learning resonated so much because it
was about that connection with the horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Who, who
was organizing that course?
And what did they teach you?
Nicola Hepburn: Well, the course
was originally organized by an
organization which no longer
exists called Etain, and it was-
Rupert Isaacson: Called what, sorry?
Nicola Hepburn: Etain
Equestrian it was called.
I d- I don't think they exist anymore.
Etain?
Etain, yeah.
Etain.
Rupert Isaacson: E-A-I-N.
Nicola Hepburn: Etain.
Etain.
It was a lady named Roz.
And the the initial course was going
to be run by one trainer, and then
that person dropped out, and they
found a new trainer who was Sierra
Ow- Owall, who worked quite closely
with Barbara Rector In the, in the US.
And Barbara Rector was who ran EFMA
as it was then in America, which was
the kind of mental health part of
NARA, which was their version of RDA.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
which is now PATH, right?
PATH International.
Yeah,
Nicola Hepburn: yeah.
Right.
So but back then they had this separate
organization and Barbara Rector was
one of the kind of pioneers, and I
think America were ahead of us then.
Mm-hmm.
There's a lot more of the equine
facilitated learning and the
different approaches happening in
America than there was in the UK.
I think it, we had RDA but there
wasn't a lot else going on here.
And yeah, so this lady called Sierra
came over and she spent a week with
us and we were at the beautiful
Unicorn Trust in Stow-on-the-Wold.
It's an amazing venue.
And it was just a really eye-opening
and amazing experience, amazing people.
And we just learnt kind of the
very basics, the foundations of
equine facilitated learning really.
But it was, you know, like I say,
it was a light bulb moment for me.
It was just, yeah, this is
exactly what I want to do.
So I started then volunteering with
RDA so I could get some experience
working with people, because prior to
this I'd spent a lot of time working
with horses as a child, but I hadn't
really spent much time working with
disabled or disadvantaged people.
So I wanted to learn more about that.
So I did go and volunteer at RDA,
and then I managed to get a job at
a charity that worked around inclusion
and they set up a project, an equine,
one of the first equine facilitated
learning projects in the UK.
And I was the original project
manager on that project.
But I quickly found that I
wanted to do my own thing, and
I really wanted to set upâ¦
I had a very, you know, my own thing.
I had a very clear idea about
creating an organization.
Rupert Isaacson: What was that idea?
What was that own thing that you
clearly knew you wanted to do?
Nicola Hepburn: I think it was very
much influenced by my childhood, where
I'd, the, the stables had been a safe
space for me, and I feel, I felt like
I wanted to recreate that environment
that I'd had as a child where I'd been
able to learn, where I'd felt safe,
where I'd been able to be included.
And you know, I just, I think
it was trying to recreate a
feeling, if that makes more sense.
Rupert Isaacson: It does.
Were you, so- Y- y- we, w- w- was
the vision safe space and inclusion?
Was that ⦠W- was it,
was it those two things?
Nicola Hepburn: I think initially, yeah.
Was
Rupert Isaacson: there more?
Nicola Hepburn: I think at that
point I, I didn't, you know, I
didn't know as much, I wasn't as
experienced as I am now, obviously.
So I think it was, you know-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Nicola Hepburn: kind
Rupert Isaacson: of- 'Cause I'd say
you do a whole lot more than that now.
And I'd say that you, you
do create those safe spaces.
You do create inclusion.
But I know about your work,
and I know it's much, much more
three-dimensional than that.
But these things evolve, don't they?
So w- w- was that the original
sort of simple vision, and then
everything from there evolved?
Yeah,
Nicola Hepburn: I think, think the
very simple vision was that I wanted to
provide sessions to local people, and
at this point I was actually working
with adults as well as children.
So when I first started it
was more adults with learning
difficulties that I was working with.
And I set up a community project
running out of a livery yard where I
kept my horses, and I had I used to
hire the indoor arena, and we'd ha-
we'd have local people come in and
I'd just spend an hour with them,
and we'd do obstacle courses and, you
know, spend time grooming the horses.
And I guess, you know, sensory
work, but in a different way to,
to how Horse Boy developed it.
And very much, very basic work with
the horses, just that interaction, that
connection with the horse on the ground.
And that was it.
Mm.
And I was working, you know, like
I say, hiring an indoor arena.
I had two horses.
And I was just, you know, just
set up a small community project.
A-
Rupert Isaacson: and what did you see?
What did you do?
What did you achieve in the,
that sort of early pilot project?
Nicola Hepburn: Well, with the early
pilot project it was very much a
way of me finding my way of how
I wanted to work with people, w-
working out what worked well, what
people enjoyed, how the sessions ran.
Mm-hmm.
You know, so it was very much a kind
of test project I'd say to see, you
Rupert Isaacson: know- Yeah,
what did you offer them, and, and
what, what were the takeaways?
What did you observe?
Nicola Hepburn: Well, at that point,
you know, we were working with adults,
and what we found was that they really
enjoyed working with the horses.
They, they found it's a lot of fun.
We found that people were engaging in
the activities and it was really holding
people's attention, and they were finding
just being with the horse really relaxing,
and they were able to really focus.
And so I think that was my initial
kind of experience with engagement.
Because now obviously when we're
talking about education, we talk
a lot about engagement and people
being engaged in activities.
And I think that was one of the very
first learnings for me was that the
horses really hold people's attention.
People are really present
when they're with the horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So wh- when these adults were coming
to you in the, in these early days,
what, what sort of conditions or
dilemmas or problems were they having?
And w- What was your offer
that gave them this engagement?
Nicola Hepburn: I think initially
it was just it was more of just
a, a therapeutic activity that we
were offering to adults who- But
Rupert Isaacson: were these
adults with, with trauma?
Were these adults- Yeah,
they were- ⦠with autism?
Were they adults with-
They- Were they veterans?
You know, what were they?
Nicola Hepburn: They were adults with
learning difficulties, neurodiversity.
Okay.
So they came from, like, a local
support center where they'd
go to, like, a day center.
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
Nicola Hepburn: You know, the day center
would bring them to us with support staff,
and we would, you know, we'd do an hour
with the horses with, with the adults.
And-
Rupert Isaacson: Basic activities on the
ground, grooming- Grooming ⦠leading-
Nicola Hepburn: Obstacle courses
⦠Rupert Isaacson: interacting
⦠Nicola Hepburn:
interacting with the horse.
So it was all very basic.
It was all on the ground.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Nicola Hepburn: And we just found
that people were enjoying the
sessions, and they were, they
were getting something from it.
But it wasn't you know,
there was no riding.
It was all very, very basic on the ground.
Mm-hmm.
And then I think somebody who worked with
children who were completely disengaged
from education heard about what I was
doing, and then we started getting
some children coming through, and it
was mostly neurodivergent young people
who were completely out of education.
And it was an activity to kind
of get young people re-engaged
into something, into an activity,
but it was very much therapeutic.
It wasn't education at this point.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So y- you now are an educator, right?
You are an educational establishment.
Yeah.
You are aâ¦
What is, is, is the correct term in
the UK al- an alternative provision?
Nicola Hepburn: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So for those listeners and, and watchers
who are not British, basically what
that means is Nicky operates effectively
an alternative to school for people
who have difficulty, or are refusing,
or can't, or whatever, go to school.
And then at Nicky's place, at Equine
Learning in Warwickshire, they can learn,
sit exams, take vocational courses, and
in some cases even get off to college.
So that's a huge evolution from groups
of adults with learning difficulties
coming from a, a daycare center to-
designing and operating full curriculums
for people who, young people who are
then gonna go on and get qualifications
through you, which will allow them to
then enter the workforce and so on.
Talk us now through what you do.
How do you, how do you,
how do you organize this?
How do you offer this?
How do you, how do you take someone who's
like, "I'm not going to school and I hate
school and I hate learning, and you can
all bog off," to "Okay, I'm gonna sit
my exams," and where am I gonna sit my
exams and how am I gonna sit my exams?
And then get off to college.
How do you do this work?
How do you take somebody from that almost
nihilistic space and bring them along?
Nicola Hepburn: Well, the
qualifications that we do are
mostly equine qualifications.
So we already have people
who are interested in horses.
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, we already have something
that interests the young person.
So I think finding something
that interests them is, you know,
is ⦠That's the key point.
So if somebody's completely disengaged
from education, you know, from the
research I did for my masters was
very much around, around this, about
how do we re-engage young people, and
one of the first things is finding
something they're interested in.
Mm-hmm.
So we're, we're very lucky that
we have the horses, because people
tend to be very interested in
horses before they come to us.
And then, you know, we work, we work in a
person-centered way with each individual.
So for, for some people they might
need to start by coming one hour a
week and just get used to where we are.
For some people they might need me to go
around their house and meet them before
they will even step foot on the premises.
They might need to come and sit in
the car for half an hour and then
drive home, and then come back the
next day and get out of the car for 10
minutes, then get back in and go home.
It really depends on the individual.
'Cause some people you know, we
have to do quite a lot of transition
work before we can even get
them onto an education program.
So it's about creating the
right environment for, for
each individual young person.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Nicola Hepburn: And from there really
the qualification side you know, we offer
them something they're interested in.
So if they're interested in horses,
they can learn about horses,
and they can do a qualification
that covers all kinds of things.
So it will cover animal care,
it will cover feeding, it will
cover you know, grooming, it will
cover tacking up, it will coverâ¦
Some of them have riding as
part of the qualification.
So but they're learning
other things within that.
So you know, there are transferable
skills within those qualifications.
So the qualifications that we offer
are all work-based, so they're
assessed through coursework.
We don't do any exams, which is another
really important part for some of-
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So the way that they effectively pass
their exams is by not sitting exams,
but by being assessed as they go along.
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
Right.
So there's, there's theâ¦
It's half practical and half theoretical.
And so there is an
element of written work.
But for some young people, if they,
if they really struggle with written
work, we will scribe for them, or
we'll collect evidence in a, in a
way that works for that individual.
Right.
So and then we have
done maths and English.
You know, we do maths and English
functional skills with young
people as well, and that does
involve sitting an exam, but we
would invigilate that ourselves.
They'd sit an exam in a room
they're comfortable in at, at
our facility with our staff.
So it's very, it's managed in a way
that really works around their needs.
Rupert Isaacson: So that- And if they
do sit that exam, do they sit that exam
on your farm, or do you go to- Yeah.
Okay.
So they could do that with the
horses and the ducks wandering by
Nicola Hepburn: Well, yeah, we tend to
do it in the in the learning space that
we have because yeah, it's you know,
it's a little less distracting in there.
But if they really needed to do
it on the yard with the animals,
that would be absolutely fine.
They can have animals- Okay ⦠with
them in the room, you know.
We try and do it in a way where
it's very person-centered.
Rupert Isaacson: Gosh, I wish
I'd done my exams that way.
You know, I was just a- afraid
of being beaten, basically.
Yeah.
Sitting there, sitting there in
an overly hot, stuffy exam hall
where we were expected to be
stressed, and we were expected to
deal with the stress, you know.
It, it's interesting how
far things have come.
You know, w- what are the success
stories that you've seen with
people going through this process?
What ⦠Give us some examples.
Nicola Hepburn: Well, we've worked
with, with young people who've come to
us where they've been disengaged from
school for some time due to health
issues or due to being a school refuser
or being neurodivergent, not being
able to cope in a school environment.
And we've got several young people through
level two and level three qualifications.
With one young person, she completed her
level two, her level three, her maths and
her English, and went on to university.
With other young people, they've come
and studied courses with us and then
gone on to other establishments to do
further study or gone into the workplace.
But the qualifications offer
things like part, you know, part
of the qualification might be a
module around working as a team.
So it's not all necessarily horse
work or learn to work with others
or understanding professional skills
like timekeeping and, you know,
being able to work with other people.
So it's ⦠The qualifications are
a bit broader than just horses.
So somebody could come and do
a qualification with us, and it
would give them a qualification
at that level that they could then
go on to study something else.
So, yeah, so the young people that
come to us tend to go on to something
else or go into the workplace.
Rupert Isaacson: And how long
do they tend to stay with you?
What's the average time?
Nicola Hepburn: Well, it's quite a long
time, actually, 'cause we take a really
long time to do the qualifications 'cause
we work at the pace of the student.
So where they might go into college and
do the same qualification in a year,
we might do it over two academic years.
Okay.
So w- w- it, you know, they tend to be
with us for two to three years normally.
Rupert Isaacson: So, don't know
why it's giving me a thumbs down.
I think it saw me do this
on the side of my face.
I better do this quickly.
Let's see if it reacts to that.
Why doesn't it react to that?
Okay.
Weird.
But okay.
The young people that come to you then,
you're with them for a while, so you
know that when somebody walks through
your door, you're going to be with this
person for hundreds of hours, right?
It's not gonna beâ¦
It's, it's, it's gonna be quite a
sort of intimate relationship in a
way because you're gonna spend so
much time in each other's company.
How do you try to ensure that it's
a personality fit in that case?
Like, okay, couple of questions.
What, what's the sort of number
of these young people that you
would serve at any one time?
And how do you make sure that it's
a fit as much as you can before
you dive into this rather, you
know, immersive process with them?
Nicola Hepburn: Well, the, the number
of students we have on the education
program at any one time is six.
That's our maximum number
per day for the education-
Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
so it's really boutique.
Nicola Hepburn: It's really tiny,
but obviously we do have other
projects that we run alongside that.
So we do our kind of one-hour mental
health sessions, and then we have, like,
holiday clubs and other things, and then
we do private work with families as well.
Mm-hmm.
So the education program is
only one part of what we do.
But the education program specifically,
we only work with six at a time maximum.
It's normally less than that.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nicola Hepburn: Inâ¦
Before we work with the young people, we
get sent their education and healthcare
plan from the local authority, and we
would go through that and, you know, and
see if we can meet the needs in, thatâ¦
laid out in the plan.
And we would meet people normally before
they would come, and we'd have discussions
with families, and, and then we'd say
if we can offer them a place or not.
So we, we try, and we don't
always get it right, you know.
It can be that sometimes somebody
might come and they might, we might
not be the right provider for them.
But the only way we can really find that
out sometimes is by giving it a go, you
know- Mm ⦠and enabling them to come.
Maybe start with a few sm-
shorter sessions first you know,
and see, see how they, see how
they get on with everybody else.
Rupert Isaacson: And,
and how is it funded?
Howâ¦
Nicola Hepburn: Well, we, we do private
work for, for sessions, but for theâ¦
The majority of our work is funded
through the local authority.
So the local authority-
Rupert Isaacson: Education authority.
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
So they will refer young people to
us who, you know, they, they feel
could benefit from coming to our more
therapeutic education environment.
But we tend to work with post 16, so they
tend to be 16 and above at that point.
We do work with younger students,
but they would come to us
on a very part-time basis.
They would be on roll at school, and
they might come to us a couple of
afternoons a week or one day a week.
Okay ⦠they, they, they're
not with us full time.
We only work full time with post 16.
Rupert Isaacson: And the, this, these six
at any one time, post 16s, who are going
through these qualifications with you,
is that the bulk of the bread and butter
of your funding, and is that the bulk of
your time and the other things are more
peripheral, or is it, like, a half/half?
The reason I ask is, you know, as someone
who runs programs myself, I'm always a bit
fascinated as to how people organize it,
you know, and every single place has its
own economy and ecosystem, if you like.
And I think one of the- points
about doing this podcast is that a
lot of the people who are listening
are people who run programs.
And we're all fascinated about
how everyone else does it
because it always gives us ideas.
So would you say that the bulk of the
money that funds the program comes
from that alternative education piece
with that sort of boutique number of
people, and the rest is sort of somewhat
peripheral, or is it the other way around?
Nicola Hepburn: I'd say at the
moment the bulk of our, our income
does come through the alternative
education work, absolutely.
But that has, that has been quite a
conscious choice and a development
within the- Mm-hmm ⦠business.
It used to be that way.
I used to run a riding center
in addition to the therapeutic
work to pay the bills, you know.
So we've, but we've now really run down
the, the riding school side of things,
and we're very much now doing mostly
therapeutic work and sessions, and we do
a very small amount of pony club as well.
But
Rupert Isaacson: every- Right
⦠Nicola Hepburn: is very much the
education is, is probably the
largest part of the business.
Rupert Isaacson: And is that a
recent thing that education, is-
we're talking in the UK here.
Is this a recent thing that there has
been this kind of budget in educational
authorities that a relatively small number
of people being worked with intensively
like this could actually, you know,
pay a bunch of staff and keep a, you
know, an alternative provision going?
Or has that sort of always been there?
Because it seems to me that when I
first met you back in the early 2000s,
you didn't hear so much about this.
It seems that this is something
that sort of evolved over time.
Would that be right?
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, I would say so.
I think you know, I'm thinking back to
when I first met you, we were very much
then running, you know, riding lessons.
We were doing the therapeutic
sessions, and we were doing
camps and things like that.
And that was very much, and the work
with the local authority was there,
but it was on a much smaller basis,
and we had- Mm-hmm ⦠sessions.
I think there were other projects
that were perhaps having more work
with the local authority then,
but we, we definitely weren't.
I would say this is something that has
evolved, but we've had to tender for the
work we have with the local authority.
So the, the tendering system is where
they will, you know, the, the local
authority will put out a tender on,
on, on a online portal, and you have
to actually write a bit for the work.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I see.
Nicola Hepburn: So it's not the-
Rupert Isaacson: Almost like
you're a builder offering, you
know, do- Okay ⦠putting the
roof on the town hall type thing.
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
So the, you have to know where to look for
the projects, and then you write a tender,
you know, to try and meet those needs.
So if it's, like, education for
young people, you know, you would
then write a tender and, and
bid to the local authority, and
then they can choose you or not.
So you have to be able
to meet their criteria.
And
Rupert Isaacson: we have- And
how do you learn, how do you
learn how to write those tenders?
I mean, that's a fairly
specialist thing, no?
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
Well, I think, you know, obviously
when I was younger, I did work
for a national charity as fundra-
Okay ⦠marketing briefly, and
that, that did really help me.
That gave me skills, and it gave
me an understanding of how the
tendering systems and charities work.
So I think I was able to, to learn
some of those skills then but I
think really anybody can do it.
It's just about being able to know
that the work is there, know how to
tender, and then, you know, learn to
answer the questions in a way that meet
the criteria that they're looking for.
So it's about reading
what the criteria is.
It's the same kind of thing as doing a
funding application where you read the
criteria, what is it they're looking for?
Can we meet this?
How are we gonna meet this?
And making sure that you're wording
it in a way that meets the criteria.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
That's a, as you say, that's a skill.
And you know, when, when I was first
starting in this work, it was all about
either getting donations or grant writing
or providing services through, through,
you know, which people paid directly.
All the stuff that you
described in the early years.
Did youâ¦
When you became aware that there
were these tenders what was
the learning process for you?
I, I think people listening to
this will be fascinated 'cause
it's a bit like a tutor- Let's
say this podcast was a tutorial.
You're giving a tutorial now
on how you locate and then bid.
Talk us through that.
How, how do you locate these tenders,
and then how do you put your tender in?
Nicola Hepburn: Well, each local
authority will have a tendering
portal for, for everything.
Like you were saying for the building
work, for, for anything that they're
tendering for, there will be a
portal for each local authority.
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you, you
would, let's say it was me and I was
starting off in Warwickshire like you.
Yeah.
I would go on the, my local
education authority website and
look for, what would I type in?
Nicola Hepburn: I think you would
just put in like, local authority
tendering portal or tendering
opportunities- Okay ⦠and that would
lead you onto the tendering portal.
And there you would register an
account, and then you can, you can ex-
put in an expression of interest for
any projects that are available that
you're interested in tendering for.
But sometimes the local authority
might contact organizations as well.
So you know, for example, the mental
health sessions that we do, they
actually contacted us and said,
"We're putting this tender out.
Would you like to bid for it?"
But obviously we're already known to
the local authority at this point.
Right.
So I think it's about getting
your foot in the door with local
authorities as well and meeting, you
know, speaking to the right people.
So I think it, for an organization-
Rupert Isaacson: How do
you, how do you do that?
How, how do you reachâ¦
How do you even know who to reach out to?
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I think if it was
somebody who's interested specifically
in working with young people, you know,
you could contact Children's Services and
say, you know, "We're an organization.
This is what we're doing.
Can you put me in touch with somebody?"
You know, and, and make
an introduction that way.
But very much the, the tendering process
is about looking online, seeing what
the, what's available, and then just,
you know, asking for all the paperwork
and reading it very, very carefully.
And then being realistic as well, because
I think at times I put in for tenders
that we weren't ready for, you know,
with local authorities when we were,
when we were a much younger organization.
I would tender forâ¦
You know, there were
tenders that I didn't get.
So I think you have to be prepared to
maybe not necessarily get every one,
and just learn from the process and,
you know, tender for things that are
really, you really can deliver as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Are there
always tenders going out?
Like, or do you sometimes go on
that website and there are none?
Nicola Hepburn: Well, yeah.
I mean, th- they're not always
ones that we would be suitable for.
So- But
Rupert Isaacson: there's always
something being tendered for?
Nicola Hepburn: There's usually
something being tendered for, yeah.
Okay.
'Cause some of them are residential, so
there may be other organizations that have
residential opportunities and could do,
you know, short breaks or respite orâ¦
There's lots of other opportunities,
but it's just about finding the ones
that are relevant to your specific
organization that you can deliver.
Rupert Isaacson: Have youâ¦
Can you just give us a couple of examples
about where you went wrong with that?
Like, y- y- you said there were some you
didn't get, but I could also imagine you
might get one and then have, "Oh dear,
I guess I can't really deliver this."
Like, I'm sure both things could happen.
Could you talk us through- Any
times that that has happened to
you and, and kind of what you did.
How did you retrieve that?
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I put in a
big tender quite early on with a, a
local authority that wasn't our local
authority, but was a neighboring
local authority that was very close
to the first yard that we had.
And it was for short breaks for children,
and I, I did spend a long time writing
that tender, but in the end they came
back to us and said, "Well, because you're
just out of county, we're not gonna use
you 'cause we only wanna use projects
that are within our county boundaries."
So had I asked that question-
prior to submitting the tender, it
would have saved me a lot of work.
Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: But,
Nicola Hepburn: but going through
the process and writing it in
itself was a useful exercise.
Right.
So I didn't see it as a wasted exercise.
But you've got to remember, by this
point I was already fundraising.
You know, the center we have
now, obviously I fundraised
for all the facilities.
So, you know, writing bids and, and
being tenacious is really important
because y- you're not gonna get
everything straight away, and you've
got to have absolute faith that
if you keep going, that you will.
You know, you will get funding, and
you will get tenders, but you just
have to, you know, meet the criteria,
and it has to be the right one.
Mm.
My advice to anybody would be,
you know, be tenacious about it.
Don't give up at the first hurdle
because this is a, a hard industry to
work in, and it takes a lot of hard work
to, to get funding and to get tenders.
But once you do, it really does
make a difference to being able to
deliver with the local authority.
Makes a big difference to
how your organization runs.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you ever get
a tender and then realize you'd
bitten off more than you could chew?
Nicola Hepburn: I'm gonna say no.
I, I've got tenders and then realized
it's a lot more administration
than I realized it was going to be.
Because obviously when you're, when
you're accountable for public money
and the, the local authority are
paying you for services, there's a huge
amount of admin that comes with them.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nicola Hepburn: So where you're running
sessions with local families and they're
paying you, you know, you might have a
bit of paperwork to fill in with them,
but y- and you might keep some monitoring,
you know, progress and things like that.
But with the local authority,
it's much more intense because you
have to be able to prove that what
you're doing is making a difference.
Mm-hmm.
So they want to see a lot of feedback.
They want to see feedback
from the families.
They want toâ¦
You know, they've got to justify
how they're spending their money.
So you have to be able to meet
their administration needs and
say, "Yes, this is what we've done.
This is how well we've done.
This is what's worked," you know,
and be able to deliver good quality
provision that's worth their while.
Rupert Isaacson: I think for a lot of
people, yeah, I, I, I've certainly found
this when I was working a lot in Texas I
didn't really go out to local authorities.
I didn't really let people
know so much that I wasâ¦
I did a little bit, you know.
I went to our local school.
I did a couple of things like that.
But because there was no public
money really available, I think
it may have changed now I did all
my fundraising sort of grassroots.
And then gradually of course
organizations contacted us and said,
"Oh, you know, we're this foster
care thing," or, "We're this first
responders organization," or, "We're
this," you know, "We have this need.
Can you, can you do it?"
And we would- generally say yes.
Partly because we have a
lot of trouble saying no.
But also because we were curious.
And in a funny way, I think
we were willing to fail.
I, I do thinkâ¦
I guess that's what I was driving
at with, with those questions.
I, I
Worry that sometimes when I'm giving
trainings to people in, you know, our
qualifications, Horse Boy Method and
Movement Method and TAKIN, that people
are naturally from a very good place,
very, very anxious to get it right.
And of course, this isn't
always gonna happen.
And as you say, you know, sometimes
when you don't get something,
it's a good learning process.
But also sometimes when you sort
of get your ass handed to you by a
particular individual or a particular
child or a particular situation, it
deepens, of course, your practice.
And the next time-- And you go away
and you think about it, and you talk it
through with your team and, and so on.
And I think for a lot of people that are
listening to this show, a lot of them
have been through that process or are
going through that process or perhaps
are on the cusp of that process and sort
of, you know, nervously putting their
toe in the first waters of watching the
sharks swim, you know, in front of them.
Talk us through your
experience a little bit with
When you feel that you're getting
it wrong, and then what do
you do with that information?
Because, you know, you've been
in the game now 20 years or so.
Mm-hmm.
You know, one looks up,
and it's gone like that.
But you've got a lot of wisdom to impart.
You've, you've weathered many, many
storms like all organizations have,
and each time you pop up stronger.
I- i- without going into detail that,
you know, makes you uncomfortable
disclosing stuff about other people,
can you just give us a sort of general
sense of sometimes when you felt, "Oh,
I messed up on that one," and then
what you did with that, and then how
you took that into the next situation?
I think that this kind of
thing's always useful for us.
Nicola Hepburn: I mean, are we,
are we talking about people or
the organization in general?
Rupert Isaacson: I think both.
You know, just the- Okay ⦠the,
the situations that spring to mind.
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I think,
you know, early on we hadâ¦
You, you will know we, we had struggled
to find landlords where we could stay for
a length of time, and, you know- Right
a lot of people are in a situation where
they don't own land, and you have to
Rupert Isaacson: rent.
Mm.
Nicola Hepburn: And that can be really
tricky because every single land
we've, you know, every- everywhere
we've been, we've invested money.
We've fundraised.
We've invested money.
So you'll know the, you'll remember the
very first yard we were at, we had that
tiny little indoor arena that was- Mm
18.
It
was, oh, it was tiny.
It was, like, 12 meters by 18 meters or
something, and we converted that barn
into the smallest indoor arena in the UK.
It was, like, tiny.
It was this tiny little barn, and
we, you know, but we spent a lot of
money on that yard, and then things
didn't work out with the landlords.
And then we moved to another bigger
premises, and then perhaps at that point
we'd got somewhere that was too big for
what we were ready for, and we were then
reliant on livery money for, you know,
to, to rent out half the yard as livery.
And then we were on the other yard,
and then we had, then we had to
kind of manage doing livery with the
yard, and then that didn't work out.
And then we moved from there, and
we struggled to find somewhere else.
And I don't know if you remember at that
point, we'd, we'd fundraised, I think
about £50,000 to build an arena, and it
was a huge, it was the biggest funding
we'd ever got, and I was so excited.
And we had this funding, and
then we lost our property.
And then the property we were moving
into also fell through, and I was
suddenly stuck with 20 horses and
nowhere to go, and this, you know, this,
this big, huge problem in front of us.
And I think that was actually when I
came out to Texas and did some training
with you at that point, and came out
and did the working student program.
And it was just a complete reset for me
at that point, because it was either,
you know, I was either gonna do it
or I was gonna give up , you know?
Because everything had suddenly
become incredibly difficult.
And I think, you know, i- it was a, a time
for me where I was really able to realize
that I had such a, a passion for the work,
and that it really meant so much to me.
And I was able to then come back,
find a new premises, which is
where we still are now, in fact.
We've been there for 12 years.
And I was able to reapply for funding,
get an even bigger amount, build
the equestrian center, you know.
And so I think in that situation it
was just very much about regrouping
and realizing, "Why am I doing this?
Why do I do this?
What am I doing it for?"
And I think it has to be for the love
of the work, and it has to be because
you're passionate about wanting
to make a difference to people.
Mm-hmm.
And be really passionate about what you're
doing in order to have that tenacity, to
have that drive, to keep things going when
it gets hard, because it does get hard.
Especially if you're renting, especially
if, you know, funding is difficult and
you're having to pay your staff above
yourself and things like that, you know.
It's, it's not an easy industry
to, to work in, and the equine
industry in general, I think, canâ¦
Is, is a difficult industry.
So I think for me it's about holding
onto that passion and holding onto
that belief, and really doing things
because you, you really want to do it
and you really wanna make a difference.
You have to be incredibly
Rupert Isaacson: passionate
Nicola Hepburn: about the work, I think.
Rupert Isaacson: A- and now, I
mean, I would say, I, I you're
reminding me, I remember all these
crises and you weathering them.
And year to year, still
providing services.
And I think your point is really
good, that most of the people that
get into this vocationally do not
come from land-owning families.
Nor do they start with- A
couple of million to go and
buy and develop a property.
I'd say that's the vast
majority, you know, of us.
So we, we might make that money
later, or we might raise that money
later, but we don't start that way.
You know, with Horse Boy, we started with
the little bit of land that came with
the house that I lived in in Texas, and
then I rented my neighbor's 10 acres.
But there were times when his wife felt
that we were an onerous presence and
would threaten to kick us off, and we
were always dealing with that insecurity.
And it's interesting when people look at
the history of Horse Boy and say, "Well,
you know, it just kind of evolved, and
then it went from strength to strength."
I say, "Well, yeah and there were many
moments of oops and ah, and whoa, and,
you know, and, and why are we doing this?"
And as you say, it always
came down to the passion.
Now, obviously, for me, I'm, I'm a, I'm
a, an autism dad, but you know, there w-
I could have at some point said, "Well,
fine, I'll just work with my own child."
But I always felt that I couldn't do
that because we had stumbled into a
technology that worked for others, and
there were just so many other parents
out there in my position who were lost,
that if I didn't make this available,
then shame on me sort of thing.
But you've now, I'd say that the
property that you're in is about
as perfect as it could possibly be.
Could you walk us through this property
and the different things that it offers?
Because I think, again, that's a really
helpful thing for listeners and watchers
to know that, okay, you went from
effectively homeless to this over time.
Tell us about your current, your,
where, where you've been for the
last decade and a, and a bit.
Nicola Hepburn: Okay.
Well, where I am now is Wootton Park,
which is a, a, a private estate out
in the Warwickshire countryside.
It's really, you know,
a really beautiful site.
There were about 300 acres.
I think now there's probably
about 150 acres of land.
There's a wedding venue there.
There's you know, a big farmhouse
where they do accommodations, offices.
So basically the farm used to be
a working farm and then it got
converted and all the buildings have
been converted for different uses.
And it's owned by a family and the,
you know, there's, there's various
different businesses on site.
So when I first went to Wootton Park, I
rented a five-acre paddock and an arena.
So it was originally because we were
running camps that I went there.
So I was looking for somewhere
where I could run camps.
I'd come back, I'd run camps
on a yurt site in Devon for the
summer, and then I'd come back.
I'd taken all my horses to Devon for
the summer, 20-odd horses to Devon,
and then we brought them all back to
Warwickshire, and I was renting a field.
And this was the year I came back
from Texas, and I was like, "Well,
what, what are we gonna do now?
Where am I gonna go?"
And I'd seen this, this estate,
and I contacted the owner and
said, "You know, they, I'm looking
for somewhere to run camps."
And I saw that they had glamping pods.
And I said, "You know, can I please,
you know, can you let me know more
information about the glamping pods?
'Cause I'd like to run these camps.
I'm looking for a, a, you know,
a venue where I could take
horses and run the camps."
And they said, "Well, we, we've also
got a paddock and an outdoor arena.
Would this be of interest to you?"
And I said, "Yeah, I'll be
there this afternoon," and
just sort of went and met them.
And you know, I was very lucky.
They were really interested in what I was
doing, and they were really lovely people.
And so that was how it
started where I am now.
I rented a paddock, and we
started running camps there.
But the rest of my horses were kept in the
village, and I used to have to box them
back and forth as we needed to use them.
And I started off by putting up two
stables and a tack room, and then
applied for a license and then we
were able to operate from that point.
But back then, we used to do
most of the sessions out around
the farm through the woodland.
And everything was
really based on the farm.
We did have a, a small wood chip arena- Mm
but very much the, the farm was
the therapeutic environment, and
we did everything out, you know,
around the tracks and in the woods.
So- I
Rupert Isaacson: mean, I, and to some,
some degree, it sort of still is, right?
You've got amazing trails through- Yeah
⦠these fields and, and these farms.
I think a lot of, a lot of
people would drool to have the
kind of trail opportunities
that you, you guys have there.
You s- I know you now have a very nice
arena and a, and a covered round pen,
but- W- have you, do you keep the practice
of taking the kids out into nature?
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, very much so.
You know, at the moment we're running
our summer activities, and we do,
we do some riding, you know, out on
trails, and then we're off in the
woods stem building and pond dipping
and doing those kinds of activities.
So the site has got lakes.
There's wakeboarding, there's
paddleboarding, there's now a sauna.
I mean, this has all developed over time,
that it wasn't all- Mm ⦠first started.
You know, so I think for me it was very
much about finding the right place.
And I think initially when you start
out, you might have an idea in your head
that you need a stable yard, and you need
to have stables, and you need an arena.
But actually, when I went to
Wootton Park, we had a paddock.
Yeah, we did have a small wood chip
outdoor arena, but it was the rest
of the site that was so perfect.
It was the woodland, it was the trails,
it was the fact there was glamping there.
So I would say for people who are looking
for premises, really look outside the box.
Approach people.
Don't just think, "Oh, I
must rent a stable yard."
It's about finding a- the property
that has something else to offer.
Because you can build stables,
you can put in an arena, but you
can't recreate that environment.
And I think the environment there is so
perfect because it's just a beautiful
site, you know, really there's no,
there's nothing around it, really.
It's very much in the middle of the
countryside and, you know, we're very
fortunate that we have the glamping there.
We have the lakes.
You know, we have the, the offices
there as well, so we're able to
do our learning in a, in a, well,
we don't call it a classroom, we
just call it a learning space.
So we rent an office- In
Rupert Isaacson: an old barn.
Yeah, right.
Exactly.
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
It's been converted.
Barn conversion.
So we're very lucky that we have
everything that we need on site.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you, the,
the, it, this thing of also look-
thinking beyond horses, I'm always
trying to prevail upon people in
the equine assisted thing to, to do.
Like you've got the, there's, there's
this wakeboarding, set of wakeboarding
lakes, which are right adjacent to
your stable, the arena and so on, soâ¦
And I've taken my own children there so
that they could, for example, go do the
water activities which have all their
own, you know, neuroscience benefits.
And, you know, Rowan, my autistic son,
has been served there very, very well.
And then one could then go across
to you, to the horses and b- back
and forth and out, as you say, to,
to the, to the trails, to the woods.
And then there's glamping, et cetera.
So when I was first beginning
with Rowan we had no facilities.
We just had field, horse
We didn't even have trails.
I had to go because it was Texas, you get
shot if you go on other people's land.
So what I did is I went around to other
local landowners and said, "Is it possible
for me to come ride on your property?"
And a whole bunch of
them, of course, said no.
But when I explained what I wanted
to do, these are all places where
I could ride to, not put a horse in
a trailer a small, very, very small
group said, "Yeah, okay, we get it."
And what resulted was hundreds of acres
of exploration wi- and creeks and deer
and porcupines and armadillos and wild
hogs and bobcats and incredible bird
life and tree species, and all these
things which I didn't own but because
people got the reason why we wanted
to access, and I was careful not to
use any one trail too many times in
a month, so we weren't too heavy of a
footprint we could piece this together.
And then later, you know, as you know,
we, we eventually put in arenas, and we
put in a covered arena, and we did one.
We acquired more land as we raised money.
But I'd say that the hardcore
of the work that we did was
always really in that sort ofâ¦
Oh, look, there's that thumb size.
Every time I do this it
does this weird thumbs down.
It's like I gotta stop do-
I gotta do this instead.
Look, look, see, see if that works.
But it's funny, whenever I do the thumb
up there, it doesn't give me a thumb up.
Is there some sort of negative
bias on Zoom or something?
Very weird.
Okay, I'll just keep my
thumb away from my face.
So a lot of it, I guess, was
about outreach and community.
And in Texas, I was always surprised
when people would say yes that we could
go on their land, 'cause people are
terrified they're being sued, right?
So it really took a lot of trust,
and I did actually lose one set of
pastures because eventually a guy said,
"I'm just too worried that you might
fall off with your kid and sue me."
And there wasn't much I could say to that
you know, other than an empty promise.
But- I'm also like a massive hippie, and
so I stood out like a bit of a sore thumb
in that very conservative area of Texas.
And most of my neighbors that I was asking
for access on their land would normally
not like somebody like me on site.
But because I sort of went very directly
and said what it was for, and then I
suppose a bit like a master of, of,
of foxhounds or something, I would
make sure that ev- every few months I
would show up with bottles of whiskey.
I would show up with crates of beer
and sit and drink with them, and
they also knew that I knew about
farming, I knew about ranching, 'cause
that is my family, so I couldâ¦
I knew about hunting.
We could establish a sort of
tribe, tribal feeling that really
allowed the project to flourish.
And I think in a funny way,
that's what you've done, too.
If y- y- y- even though there were
difficulties with certain places on
this evolution, it seems that what
you've really excelled at is being
able to reach out within your community
and say, "Hey, look, there is a
mission here, and there's a need here.
Can you help me to fulfill this need?"
'Cause it sort of could be your c- your
nephew, your grandkid, your, you knowâ¦
W- what do you say to people who areâ¦
A lot of people are very shy.
A lot of people are
Afraid of rejection, afraid of judgment.
What, what do you s- and I know y-
you yourself are quite shy, you know,
yet you always push through and do it.
W- how do you get over that?
How, how do you, how, what's your
advice to people who are hovering
on that brink, going, "Well, how,
how do I build that community?"
Nicola Hepburn: I think the worst
thing that people can do is say no.
So if somebody says no,
you haven't lost anything.
Mm.
And I, you know, for me, I, I was very
aware that what I was looking for wasn't
necessarily going to just land in my lap.
It was very much, you know,
I had to get out and find it.
And, and I think when you tell people
about the work and you tell people
what you want to do, generally, even
if they're not interested, they'll say,
"Oh, have you tried such and such?"
Or, you know, I think the
farming community, they all
know each other as well.
A lot of the landowners know each other.
So even if you go to one landowner
and they say no, they might point you
in the direction of somebody else.
So I think it's about just
getting over it, really.
Getting over your shyness and just putting
yourself out there, because anything
that's worth doing takes hard work and
takes, you know, y- you have to be able
to get over yourself, really, and just- W-
Rupert Isaacson: would you
actually drive up people's driveâ¦
Look, Snaps doing that thing again.
W- would you, would you, would you
drive up people's driveways and
actually knock on their door or-
Nicola Hepburn: I, mm, I have-
Yeah ⦠done that, yeah.
And, you know, with the, the
site I am now, I contacted them.
It was speculative.
Yeah.
I contacted them and said, you know,
"Would you be interested in this?
Is this something we could
run at your property?"
And it-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nicola Hepburn: And you know, like
I say, as it happened initially, I
was just renting a pa- a paddock, and
the arena were running camps here,
and all my horses were in a different
field in the village that I rented.
So it, look, it wasn't the ideal setup
initially, but then as time went on and
the camps were successful and we got
this funding bid, you know, I managed to
get this funding bid to build an arena.
It was then I was able to go to
them and say, "Look, I've got this
funding, you know, I wanna stay here.
Can we work with you?"
And I was very lucky that they were
people who were open to new ideas
and creative people themselves.
Mm.
And, you know, people who'd converted
their whole farm and had vision.
You know, so I was, I was lucky that
I, you know, I met the right people who
were able to support what I was doing.
But I was running the business for
probably eight years prior to that before
I managed to find that right place.
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're
considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and
developed in conjunction with Dr.
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.
We work in the saddle
with younger children.
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
It works incredibly well.
It's now in about 40 countries.
Check it out.
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be
applied in schools, in homes.
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
when they're not with you.
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they
need, as well as Serving my clients.
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base
absolutely gives you this.
Right.
And you, as you say,
you reached out to them.
I th- I think one of the, the
hardest things to get over, because
we're all just conditioned not
to do it, is to simply go and ask
It w- could we do this?
And as you say, the worst thing that
someone can do i- is, is no, is say no,
and that, that certainly doesn't kill you.
And then as you also say, that
some- sometimes they say, "No,
but you could try so and so."
Then another thing I've often found
too is they might say no now, but
for some reason when you ask ag-
keep asking, because things change.
Y- youâ¦
People's brains change, people's
personalities change, people's economic
circumstances change, and so i-
it's often good to check in, I feel.
And, and w- sometimes it can
even happen spontaneously.
Iâ¦
Theâ¦
One of the properties that we used to
ride on, I don't know if you remember,
it was called the A&L Ranch in Texas.
Yeah, I do.
And owned by Big Al who was like
a, a major character, and not
someone to get on the wrong side of.
But if he was on your side,
amazing, amazing bloke.
And when I first went and asked if
we could access that land, which had,
if you remember those, that beautiful
creek with those mature pecan, old
pecan groves on it, it's so beautiful.
It was actually his dad, who I think
was probably in his late 80s or
early 90s who was still running it,
and I remember him looking at me and
just thinking, "Who is this hippie?"
And when I asked him, you
know, "Could we do this?"
He was like, "Why?
Why do you wanna come on my land?
Now, are you bringing a metal detector?
Are you, are you bringing guns?
Are you, are youâ¦
What are you looking for?
Like, what are youâ¦
You, you wanna hunt something?
You wanna find something?
Like, what have I got on my land that
you want that I don't know about you?"
And it was so weird.
I was like, "No, I'm just British and we
like to go for walks on the countryside."
And he's like, he's like, "Well,
you know, you can pretty much get
everywhere you want to in a truck."
I'm like, "Yeah, but
that's not what I wanna do.
And anyway, I've got
this autistic kid andâ¦"
And okay, fine, he said no.
But I remember being in the bath about
three years later, and there's this
knock on the door, and I got out of
the bath, you know, get a bathrobe
on, answer the door, and it was his
son who'd been there in the background
as a mature, you know, sort of grown
man son, but hadn't said a word.
Obviously, the old man was a bit of a
tyrant And he said, "The old man's dead.
You can come on any time you want."
And that was Big Al, you know,
who then was, like, one of
our staunchest supporters.
But if I'd never gone and asked, and if I
hadn't gone through that initial refusal-
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and I, I guess it,
it, there's a thing too that one
has to find it in one's heart not
to judge or feel bitter or angry for
the people that do refuse you because
you, they're always teaching you
something, and you never know but that
something's not gonna come through that-
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: if you
can keep your heart open.
But obviously that can be
difficult when you're feeling
stressed and desperate, you know.
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
I think so, definitely.
I mean, I, yeah, I mean, that ranch
in Texas, I remember riding on.
It was so amazing with all
the wildflowers as well.
It was so ⦠'Cause I was
always really shocked that there
were so many flowers in Texas.
I always imagined it to be really dry,
and it was, yeah, it was very beautiful.
But I think, yeah, I think it's definitely
a case of, you know, not being afraid
of people to say no, and they have the
right to say no at the end of the day.
If they don't want you
there, they don't want
Rupert Isaacson: you
Nicola Hepburn: on- Mm ⦠and,
but I'd, I found that most people
when you ask them and they say no,
they're really polite about it.
I, you know, I don't think anybody
has ever been offended by me asking.
Yeah.
And I think if I hadn't have
asked, and that was how I found
my first property, you know, the,
the one with the very small arena.
That was, you know, I had to spend, I
spent months and months and months and
months searching for that and knocking
on doors and asking people because
I, you know, I was operating out of
a liveryard like I say, initially.
So it was, I think most of the properties
I've had you know, I've had
to be, I've really had to put
myself out there for them.
So I think, yeah, I d- I don't
think people mind you asking at all.
Rupert Isaacson: And then you end
up with the perfect property, and
then of course you have the ⦠And,
and, and you get your funding, and
you get all that, and then you have
to deliver the service and which of
course you were always doing anyway.
Let's talk about this a little bit
because I think you being 20 years in
both of us, you know, 20 years in, we've
o- obviously seen a lot of different w-
challenges of delivering the service.
I think, I think a lot of people feel
that, oh, well, you're delivering this
wonderful service, and people will
just sort of show up and be very happy
and very grateful, and, you know, or,
and, and of course it's not the case.
When we were-
Operating out of Texas.
You know, as you know, I, I did the first
decade of our services completely free
of charge because I'd been so broke when
Rowan's diagnosis had come that I felt
this real obligation to try to give the
services free or massively subsidized.
And r- in retrospect, I realized that
was actually a mistake that what happened
was I created massive entitlement, and
people often didn't value what we were
offering, and we would be bending over
backwards providing incredible play dates
where p- kids were not just becoming
verbal, but we were as, like you, getting
them their academic skills and all this
and being with this really inventive
staff and, you know, brilliant minds
working for us who were really working
on behalf of these, of these families.
And w- after a while, you
know, it was, it was weird.
We could really tell we-- it
just wasn't really valued.
And more than that, I almost became
afraid of some of the clients that we
had because the sense of entitlement
meant that sometimes they could be quite
aggressive, and that's like, wow, you
know, we could get sued here, you know.
And that's weird.
And, and then, so when I got to
Germany, I switched the model and
said, "No, we will charge, but I
can, of course, give scholarships.
But if I give scholarships, they could be
free or they could be subsidized or they
could be to this, but there will now be
a sort of official process that people
need to go through in order to get that
scholarship, and it will be a minority."
And weirdly, that worked so much better.
People really valued
what we did so much more.
What's been your experience with
this, and what's your advice to people
going into it, you know, vocationally?
Because when you and I first
began, we almost had to, you
know, pay to do the work.
You know, it was a real labor of love.
We, you know, we ran broke
doing it a lot of the time.
Now, there really is a lot of
government money out there.
Things have changed.
Thank God, it's a good, it's a good
thing, and it's now become a sort
of viable career path for people
to go into equine-assisted stuff.
But I think a lot of people don't
understand some of the challenges that
might be waiting for them when they do it.
Can you talk us through that a little bit?
You know, again, you don't have to Give
too many details, but I think, I think
this type of wisdom is needed for people
that are gonna go into the field I
Nicola Hepburn: think, you know,
for a lot of people it is a passion
that's come from personal experience.
So for you, you know, with Rowan
it was very personal to you.
I think with me, you know, I was
a homeless teenager and I, you
know, I lived in a homeless hostel
for a while when I was a teenager.
And so I think perhaps I didn't realize
at the time, but I was trying to
create service that I needed or I would
have needed at that point in my life.
And so I think, you know, when you
have that passion for the work and
you're trying to create something
that's so personal to you, and I think
a lot of people who go into this field
have had personal experience which
in their lives which has led them to want
to make a difference to other people.
And when you approach it from that place,
it becomes a, a passion project and you
want every family who comes through the
door to benefit and you want everybody to
leave feeling better than they came in.
Sometimes to your own detriment because
you're more focused on them, you know, and
doing, doing the right thing than you are
necessarily, like you say, on the business
or on making it financially viable.
So my advice would be, you
know, don't lose sight of that.
But at the same time, you
know, pay yourself first.
Make sure that you can afford
to keep things running.
Make sure that if families
are not behaving in a way that
you find acceptable, don't be
afraid to say, "Look, I'm sorry.
This isn't okay."
You know?
Because it causes a lot of damage to
the whole team and the whole environment
if you've got families or young people
who are behaving in a way which is,
you know, against your policies.
So I'd say have a very clear behavior
policy in place, have very clear
policies in place from the outset.
Theâ¦
And so that people understand that
the expectations, they understand.
You know, have, have agreements in
place that people sign before they come
that say, "These are our expectations.
These are our behavior policies.
This is what we offer.
This is what we don't offer," so
that when people come you have a
document you can refer them to.
You know, I'd say that's been very
important for us, and having behavior
policies and terms and conditions that we
can be very clear about and participant
agreements signed before people come so
they understand all these things has been,
has really helped, helped me with that.
Because I think there's been times when
I've been over generous or I've been you
know, where a family may not have treated
us very well and I've tried to continue
helping them because I think it's the
right thing to do to our own detriment.
You know?
So I think have those policies
in place and really stick to them
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, which
can be difficult, as you say,
'cause emotions get involved.
Mm-hmm.
One of the things I found with that
too, is sometimes people will leave but
then they might come back later, oddly
enough when they've had a bit of a think.
One of, one of my current things
is that, as you know, we have Horse
Boy Method and Movement Method, and
Movement Method is without horses,
so it's what you can do at home.
So what I now do is I ask parents
to do a Movement Method course,
at least online 'cause that costs
the princely sum of about £30.
And it'll be a certain number of
hours of their time, or we have
a shortened one that they can
do live, which is, like, £75.
So we make it as cheap as we can.
But I say, "Look, if after six weeks you
haven't done that, then we can't guarantee
that what we do here will continue at
home, and if it doesn't, then f- honestly,
you know, no matter what good effects you
get here, they won't stick in the same
way that they will if you have a 24/7
culture of this type of neurologically
based movement going on at home.
Now, I understand that you're busy,
and so six weeks may very well
go by and you haven't done it.
So tell you what, why don't we extend
that another six weeks, 12 weeks, and
I'll extend it even another 12 weeks.
But if at the end of that there's no
buy-in, then generally what I'll say is,
"Well, I, I'm sorry, but I need to now
make this space available to a family
that will do that, because we really
need to see lasting difference here
because we're putting in a lot of effort.
However, the door is open.
You can always come back.
But perhaps this isn't for you right now."
And that I found ⦠You know, I wish
I'd been saying that 10 years ago.
Yeah.
When now I think we're dealing with a very
different landscape socially to what we
were dealing, particularly post-COVID.
And it can be a bit of a minefield for
practitioners and providers as well.
You might u- use the wrong pronoun
for somebody now, you know, stuff we
wouldn't have thought about 20 years ago.
You might be perceived as
Unsympathetic to a particular
gender orientation or something.
Even if you actually are, things can
be, y- y- you are very supportive you
can end up being thrown into these roles
by effectively stroppy teenagers, you
know, who now have a sort of ammunition
of things which can be used in that
way which were not really there before.
And it's made, I think, the provision
of services actually quite a lot more
stressful for because, you know, you're
also trying to keep people alive.
You're also trying to educate, you're
also trying to provide what's needed.
And now there's this feeling of, gosh,
if I put a foot wrong, you know, or
say the wrong thing even inadvertently
I could be punished for this.
What, what has been your
experience with this?
And again, your advice for people
who are entering the business
because it's, it, it's changed for
the better- Yeah ⦠because there's
funding, but it's become trickier.
How would you, what would you
say to people about how to
navigate this sort of thing?
Nicola Hepburn: I think, you know,
keeping yourself informed is really
important because obviously things are
very different now than they were 20
years ago, and there's, and there's
certain times when I feel, you know,
I don't have all the information, you
know, about, about new things that are
you know, new best practice, I guess.
Mm-hmm.
So I'd say that's about, that's about
being part of a community as well.
That's about being part of you know,
communities with other providers
locally, communities with other people,
keeping in touch with other people so
you can all have these discussions and
almo- it's almost like a supervision,
I guess, isn't it, where you're working
with people and you're able to discuss
what's happening with other people.
I think that's really, really important.
And I think, you know, like with with
Horseboy as well, you know, there's
like the online chat groups and things
which are i- resources where you've
got practitioners from everywhere where
you can all discuss these things, and
I think that's really important is
having that community of practitioners.
Mm-hmm.
And trying to keep yourself informed,
you know, through trainings.
I think with the local authority
obviously, when you work with the local
authority you get the opportunity to
learn a lot more about safeguarding and
being involved in safeguarding courses
and especially with education they, you
know, they're very good at keeping you
up to date with what you need to know
in, in, in terms of legislation like
keeping children safe in education.
You know, so you have to be really
knowledgeable about these things and
have a really good understanding of
them and make sure your team are trained
so that, you know, when you, when
you hit a hurdle like a young person
complains about something, again,
you've got all the training in place,
you've got the procedures in place,
you've got everything in place so that
you're, you're protecting yourselves
and you're protecting your team.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Nicola Hepburn: Through
best practice really.
I think, you know, that's a really
important thing is to make sure that
you've got those protections in place
so that if ever there is an allegation
or there's any questioning about, you
know, anything that you've, you've got
all the processes in place to protect
not just safeguard the young people
you're working with, but also safeguard
your own team and your own business.
Rupert Isaacson: The other
safeguarding has to go two ways.
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah It does, absolutely.
And, and we keep a daily log and
we ke- keep a daily feedback sheet.
So for our education program,
the young people will fill in a
daily feedback sheet so we can
discuss what's happened that day.
We give them feedback as
part of our, you know, way of
working, our reflection process.
And then we also keep, like, a, a
log of the students on a daily basis
so that if somebody says, "Oh, this
happened on that day," we've got student
feedback, we've got a log, we can
go back, we can see what's happened.
You know, and I find those
tools really useful as well.
Mm ⦠so that we're, you know,
we're keeping track of everything.
And then we've also got feedback
from the students, which is
really, really important to help
shape the provision as well.
Because if you have something that
keeps coming up on the feedback, you
know, you can look at that and go,
"Hang on, you know, these students
are all saying this is an issue.
We need to do something about this, and we
need to shape the provision around them."
So I think to provide a really
person-centered provision, you
have to have feedback from the pe-
the people you're working with in
order to shape it appropriately.
Rupert Isaacson: I couldn't agree more.
The, as you know, Horse Boys
entirely really the product of an
interview that I had with Temp- Dr.
Temple Grandin, who is autistic,
saying, "How does my son become you?"
Her telling me some things to do.
I di- I did 'em.
They worked.
Then we, we needed to find out why they
worked, so we went to neuroscientists,
they explained, and then we
realized, oh, we can replicate this.
And then Rowan himself, my son, ended
up on a panel for our mutual friend and
colleague, Alex Northover, up in, who runs
Making Momentum up in Cheshire, in the
northwest of the UK, who was at that time
doing her PhD at Manchester Metropolitan
University and has just become Dr.
Northover now, so all hail Dr.
Alex.
I- she got Rowan to be part of a panel
of autistic people talking about how
equine therapies could be better from
an au- autism perspective, which is
what everyone should have been doing
from the get-go, but, you know, okay,
bre- best practice is catching up now.
W- were there s- what have you seen,
things that you had your attention brought
to that, where you made changes or where
you said, "Okay, let's adapt our program,"
because people are asking for this, or
people are saying this, or people are,
you know, expressing a desire for this.
W- ca- can you talk, give us
a few examples of, of how you
shaped your practice this way?
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I guess my biggest
example would be, you know, when I did
my, my master's research, my dissertation
for my master's degree was where I, I took
three, two or three years of our feedback
from the students and analyzed it, and
went through it all and worked out what
it was that was working for the students.
And then we also interviewed
students as part of that as well.
So that was my biggest piece of
research around- The voice of the
people we're working with, and really
trying to understand what it was
that they really needed and what they
benefited from, what worked for them.
And we found, you know, very much
that it's about being able to trust
the right people, being able to make
sure that their individual needs are
met and that they feel listened to.
And I think that was a really big thing.
It's like, you know, they, they want
to feel that they're, they're listened
to and that their voices are heard.
And I think a lot of provision
can be shaped by people.
This is what people need, so we're
gonna shape this provision around that.
But are we really listening to, to
what the young people are saying,
to what the participants are saying?
So I think that feedback process for
me, putting those sheets in place
and then really sitting down and
analyzing it, and then interviewing
students, especially when it comes
to why they disengage from education.
And I think a lot of the feedback
we got was because they actually
found education traumatic.
So, and we know that young teenage brains,
when they're in the state of trauma,
that can have a, a, a lifelong impact.
You know, from a neuroscience perspective,
you know, when you're still developing,
your brain is still developing and you're
experiencing trauma at that time, that
is gonna have a long-lasting impact.
So often when students are
getting to alternative provisions,
they're already, they've already
experienced educational trauma.
So how do we, how do we change that?
How do we make just being in education,
how do we take the trauma away?
You know, that's, that's a huge thing.
And, you know, I think that was a really
big learning for me, is like, you know,
how, how do we make our environment
so that it doesn't cause any trauma,
so that it addresses the trauma that's
already been caused and enables young
people to trust people enough to
allow them to help them learn again?
You know, it's such a huge part
of reengaging young people into
learning, is building that trust.
And I think sometimes people are
very focused on the academic.
What can we get these
young people to achieve?
Well, if they don't trust the
people they're working with or
they don't trust the environment,
they're not gonna achieve anything.
So it's building that trust
initially, I think, isâ¦
You know, that's been our
biggest learning really.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Let's have some examples.
Let's say you're talking to
someone who's 22 years old.
They're about toâ¦
They've just gotten their BHS
grade three, level three, whatever.
They're about to go into
equine-assisted stuff What's
your advice for how to build this
relationship, this type of environment?
H- what's your advice for how to
create non-traumatic education?
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I'd say
first of all is, you know, for us
it's about being person-centered.
So it's about making sure that you're
really listening to the needs of each
individual and, and meeting it, and not
having your own expectations of what you
want them to achieve drive the process.
It needsâ¦
You need to set them up for a success
in a way that's gonna work for
them, not have your own ego and ex-
Rupert Isaacson: Right, but how?
Nicola Hepburn: Specific.
Well, okay.
Well, y- just, you know, really
listen to them and what hasn't
worked for them in the past.
Because, I mean, a- it's very
hard to give a, You know, because
every individual is different.
So- Right.
Rupert Isaacson: But would you,
would you have a specific set of
conversations, for example- Yeah ⦠with
a new intake around this subject?
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, absolutely.
You know, you know, just speaking
to them about what hasn't worked and
what they, what they found difficult
in, in other provisions, and what
they find does work for them.
And often speaking to
parents as well, you know.
And I think this is something that,
that you really talked about a lot
when I first started doing Horse Boy,
was that the parents are the experts.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nicola Hepburn: And so speaking
to them about, you knowâ¦
'Cause it may be that some
of the young people find they
don't want to talk about it.
They can even find talking
about it really distressing.
So speak-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
⦠Nicola Hepburn: you know, take a wider
environmental look at the whole situation.
You know, what's g- happening at home?
You know, have they gotâ¦
I- is, is there a secure home life?
Is there other people to support them?
Do they have issues with siblings?
You know, there can be a whole big
environmental impact from their lives
that isn't just about education.
You know, it's about looking at the
individual, looking at the bigger
picture, and really understanding
that person and, and their needs.
And they might not know what
will work for them as well.
So it can be a case of sometimes
trying something, and if that doesn't
work, then try something else.
But you have to listen to them.
Because if, if you feel, if they
feel that you're forcing them into
something that they don't want to
do, and when they come to youâ¦
You know, for example, a good example that
we have is if somebody's really adamant
they want to go home, we will say, "Okay.
That's fine.
If you really don't wanna
be here today and you really
wanna go home, that's fine."
And we'll let them go home.
And then they might be like, "Oh,
well, I was expecting a battle.
I was expecting you to
say that I have to stay."
And then the next time- You know, they
say, "Oh, I really wanna go home."
You say, "Well, do you, you know,
do you really wanna go home or
could you maybe stay for another
hour, and then we have a think about
how you're feeling after that?"
But if they don't trust you
that if they really wanna go,
you're not gonna let them go-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Nicola Hepburn: you know, they can
disengage really easily, and then
they won't come back 'cause they feel,
"Oh, well if I really, really need
to leave, they're not gonna let me."
So it's about building that trust
where the young person feels that if
you say, "Yeah, okay, we'll do another
hour, but then if that, if you really
wanna go home after an hour, you can,"
that you're gonna keep your word, and
that you're not gonna force them to
stay when, when they don't want to.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
This is, this is an interesting one,
because I think we're all told when we
are supposed to be the practitioner,
we're all told that we must, we're
supposed to keep some sort of level of
control, and of course, that's impossible.
And of course, with non-verbal
autism, it's relatively s-
straightforward because the feedback
is so uncompromisingly direct.
It's like, you know, someone throws a
tantrum, takes off all their clothes, has
a shit, you know, runs to the car, tries
to dive off the horse, whatever it is.
It's like, noted loud and clear
we'll follow that, and then as you
say, as one follows it, a trust is
built where you look up three months
later and you're spending, you know,
three hours together doing things.
But if they don't feel that you won't
listen in those early stages, even when
what they're doing se- you know, might
seem completely bonkers and unreasonable
you never get to that point where things
do become really reasonable and so.
But this is much, much harder
when one's dealing with the verbal
neurodiverse, because, you know, then
there's a higher degree of cognition.
People know how to manipulate.
People know how to push your buttons.
People know how to fight the old
battles with the person that they
don't like from their school,
and then project that onto you.
And that's a tough position to find
yourself in because you're not as-
Well, you know, with, say,
a non-verbal person, it'sâ¦
I, I think, I wouldn't say easier, but
it's more straightforward that if we push
in this direction, it will just backfire.
And that there's a certain kind
of, hopefully, latitude in saying,
"Well, okay, you know, let's
take a risk to try to follow.
And in our experience it seems
to have worked, so let's do it."
Much, much harder when one's dealing
with people who appear to be coming
from a maybe neurodiverse, but at the
same time more neurotypical than, say,
where my son was when he was four.
But it's really the same process,
isn't it, that you've just described,
of saying, "Okay, if you wanna
leave the premises, it's okay.
If you wanna disengage, that's all right."
And then at the same time, as you
also said, following their interests
so that the place actually becomes so
interesting that they kinda wanna stay.
But it's their choice, not there.
Not a directive.
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little
bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
You did say earlier that you maybe in
the early days, perhaps even now to
some degree, were trying to create the
provision that you would have needed
when you were a teenage homeless person.
Talk to us about that.
How did you become a
teenage homeless person?
This is really useful, I
think, for people to know.
And how did you get out of it, and
how does it affect your practice,
not just in obviously wanting to
create safe spaces, but how does it,
how does it affect your practice?
Has it creatively affect your
practice in terms of actually,
yes, being that provision?
'Cause I, I know in many ways
you are actually that provision,
which you would have needed.
H- how did it happen?
How did you survive it?
And yeah, h- how has it
informed what you do?
Nicola Hepburn: Okay.
Well, I mean, I, I was
homeless when I was 17.
It wasn't, you know, a
massively dramatic story.
I, you know, I kind of fell out
with my mom and got kicked out
the house and, you know, my mom
and I had a difficult relationship
following my parents' divorce.
And my sister had gone off to,
to university, and it was just
me and my mom, and she was going
through some difficult things.
And as, as an adult, you can look
back now and, you know, I can
understand more that she was going
through some difficult times, and
her and I just didn't see eye to eye.
We really didn't get on.
And it resulted in me you know, being
asked to leave the house when I was 17.
And, you know, I was kind of staying
on people's sofas and going from place
to place, and then I found I found
a place in a, in a homeless hostel.
But it was quite a culture shock
for me, because I'd come from
this kind of Cotswold upbringing,
private schools, ponies.
You know, we, we weren't like, you know,
we weren't massively wealthy or anything,
but it was a very nice upbringing and it
was very sheltered, I guess, from reality.
And then I move into a homeless hostel
in a big town, and the first week
I was there, there was a dead body
found in the park around the corner.
You know, and it was quite a, it was
quite a leap from, from where I'd been.
But one of the things that I
found when I moved into the
hostel, there were 20 girls there.
It was run by a kind of Christian
housing association at the time,
and a lot of the girls in there had
much different stories to mine, much
different upbringings to mine, and it
actually made me realize how lucky I
was at that time because there wereâ¦
You know, I heard some very, harrowing
stories when I was there from other
young people, you know, people
who've been abused by members of
their family or, you know, just come
from these horrendous situations.
And I think it really made me take stock
and go, "Actually, I've been quite lucky."
You know, I've just
fallen out with my mum.
This isn't, you know, these young peop-
these other women have been through a lot.
But it was a real kind of sense
of everyone supporting each
other within, within the hostels.
None of us had any money
and we were all, you know,
we were all in this sort of weird position
where we, we were all looking for places
to live and we all helped each other out.
And it was, you know, it was
quite a, quite an experience.
And I think when I, when I left there
and I, you know, I did eventually leave
there and managed to find a, a flat and
I st- I went, put myself back to college.
And I just kind of realized
actually, you know, I am really
lucky and I, I, I, I could be in
a much worse position than I am.
And it really motivated me to want
to do something more with my life.
And it took, you know, it took me a few
years really to get back on my feet.
You know, I did various art courses,
which never came to anything.
And then I eventually started
working for Blockbuster Video,
and I was the store manager for
Blockbuster for about six years.
And I started a business degree as
well, which I, again, I didn't finish.
I didn't enjoy it.
So I worked for Blockbuster for about
six years, and it was that I found a
manager who actually believed in me, and
I got my first managerial role there.
So she believed in me enough to give me
the store manager job, the area manager.
And I think what really struck me
about that was up to that point, when
you're a homeless teenager, nobody
really takes any notice of you.
So I'd gone from kind of private
school, grammar school, where everyone's
told you that you can be anything you
want to be if you work really hard.
Then I found myself in a homeless hostel.
I dropped out my A levels, found myself
in a homeless hostel where I was being
told that I needed to go and get a job,
and I'd probably never amount to anything,
and that I was a bit of a waste of space.
So, and then-
Rupert Isaacson: Who told you that?
Who, who told you
Nicola Hepburn: that you
were a waste of space?
Oh, various people.
I mean, the,
Rupert Isaacson: Not the people c- running
the hostel surely, or, or were they?
The people in the
Nicola Hepburn: hostel were very,
They were very kind of, I don't
know how to say it politely.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Say it, say it how you wanna say it.
The, the
Nicola Hepburn: people running the hostel
were very judgmental and- Okay ⦠kind
of preachy, and they felt that they
were helping shape these delinquent
young women into something better.
That's how it kind of felt.
But, you know, this is going
back to the '90s, you know?
Yeah.
So very different.
It was a very different time,
you know, 'cause I think children
are safeguarded much more now.
When you're 17, you're not really classed
as an adult now, whereas I felt like I
was treated very much like an adult then.
And you know, you're kind of told, "Oh,
well, you need to buck y- buck yourself
up," and you know, "Improve yourself,"
and, you know, you, you're kind ofâ¦
You, you have this sense of judgment
that you're homeless because of
something that is your fault and you
know, that you need to do better.
And I, you know, and at that
point I was, I was involved with
a training organization and they
were trying to get me to take,
like- Any old job, an admin job.
But I wasn't really interested in
admin at all, and it wasn't something
I was very good at, but it was
just, "No, this is all you can do.
You need to go and do it."
And there was no, there was no real ⦠I
didn't feel they were particularly
interested in me as an individual.
It was just I was a I was a statistic
that needed to be moved into the next
level of employment or whatever to
You know, I don't know.
It was very, I didn't feel that
anyone was that particularly
interested in me compared to- How long
Rupert Isaacson: were you there for?
⦠Nicola Hepburn: previously.
I was in the homeless hostel for
probably It was under a year.
I wasn't there for, you
know, a very long time.
And I did manage to find myself a
flat and, and move out of there.
But yeah, I mean, it was a, it
was a difficult time obviously.
I spent my 18th birthday
there, which wasn't ideal.
You know- How
Rupert Isaacson: did you find a place?
How did you luck into it?
Because you know, as judgemental as
it might have been, worse things would
have happened on the street, I'm sure.
Nicola Hepburn: Oh, absolutely, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So-
Nicola Hepburn: I was- Yeah ⦠I
was grateful, but it, it was
an interesting experience.
Well, initially I'd had a social
worker who'd been, who'd been
involved with the situation.
But then that seemed to come to an
end, and then there was a, a local
charity called the Young Homeless
Project that I got in touch with, and
I went there, and they were the people
who put me in touch with the hostel.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, okay.
So you were also wise enough to know
that there was a sort of chain of
contact and that you could attach
yourself to, to find solutions.
Nicola Hepburn: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: C- you know, as you
say, you, you know, you, you, you'd
come from a, an educated background.
You were taught to some
degree how to problem solve.
Yeah.
Did you end up sleeping
rough for any of it?
And if so, how did you survive that?
Because people must have attempted to
prey on you when, when that happened.
Nicola Hepburn: It wasn't as much sleeping
rough as sofa surfing at friends' houses.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Nicola Hepburn: That was kind of
difficult because I was, obviously, I
was very vulnerable at that point- Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and
Nicola Hepburn: very reliant on
the kindness of others, and that
kindness only goes so far, I think.
You know, once you're friends with
somebody and you've been sleeping at their
house for two weeks, their parents are
a bit like, "Well-" Sure ⦠you know.
And I, I remember one social services
ask, actually asking one of my
friend's parents if they'd take
me in, and they were just like,
"Well, we don't have the room and
we can't afford it," you know?
So you know, it's that feeling, I felt
like a bit of a burden on everybody
really, and that was why in the end I
decided that I had to find somewhere
else to go because it was you know, I was
really relying on the kindness of others.
Mm.
And there'd be times when somebody,
you know, would say, "Yeah, you
can come and stay at my house."
And then, you know, maybe their
parents would be like, "Who's this
strange girl you've brought home?
Where does she live?
Who is she?
No, she can't stay.
She needs to go."
And then I'd have to find
somewhere else to stay.
So yeah, it w- it was, it was very
much I, you know, I was just trying
to find places that were safe.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I did feel very
vulnerable at that time.
And I think when I was in the hostel
I was very vulnerable because I
think a lot of local people knew that
was a hostel full of
homeless girls, you know?
So- You know, without going into too much
detail, I think certain, certain people
would be interested in a, a hostel full
of young girls who had no support systems.
You know, they were all very vulnerable.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, you know, and I
think, But like I say, I, I definitely
realized when I got into the hostel
that I'd been very lucky compared to
some other young people who'd been
through some really horrendous things.
Rupert Isaacson: It's encouraging to
me to hear that when you went in there
and there were girls from rougher
backgrounds that they didn't clique
up against you because you were a nice
girl sort of thing from a, a nice home
who'd fallen into, you know, hard times.
'Cause as you know, the class system in
English, in England can be unforgiving,
you know, in every direction.
Why do you think that- It turned
out so supportive and so sisterly.
Well,
Nicola Hepburn: I think it, it just
came down to the fact that we all were
in the same boat, and we all got the
each other, you know, we all understood.
None of us wanted to be there.
It wasn't our, you know,
none of us were like-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but sometimes,
sometimes those, those situations
can be quite dog-eat-dog as well.
Yeah.
Not necessarily people
having each other's backs.
So what, what do you think
was the dynamic there that-
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I just think we all-
⦠Rupert Isaacson: made it so positive?
Nicola Hepburn: You know, we all
wanted each other to be okay.
And I, I just think- Mm ⦠I mean, maybe
it would've been different if it had been
a different group of girls, I don't know.
I just think when I was there,
they were a group of us, and we all
used to go out together as well.
You know, we'd go out and hang out
together, and it was, it was our
social network- Mm ⦠time as well.
And I think we all made sure that
we all got home okay, you know,
'cause I think if you, if you're
going out as a group of girls in a,
in a town as well, you know, theâ¦
I think there was just this sense of
us needing to look after each other.
I don't really know where that came from.
I can't really- Mm.
I can't really answer that.
But yeah, it was I think it
was just the sense of we're
all in this together, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It's encouraging, though,
to me, to hear that.
I mean, it, it, it restores one's faith.
Did you maintain touch with any
of, any of those girls after you?
Or did you all just disappear, fragment?
Nicola Hepburn: No.
No, we allâ¦
No, I didn't keep in touch
with anybody from that.
I still kept in touch with some people who
I made friends with later- Mm ⦠after
I moved out, but no, not, not the
group of girls that were in there.
No, I think we all just very much
went, went our separate ways.
So- Yeah ⦠you know, I've got no
idea what any of them are doing now.
That would be quite interesting to know.
But, but yeah, it was, it was, you
know, you say even though I was a
homeless teenager, it, and it was
a difficult time, it wasn't like
sleeping rough on the streets, you
know, it wasn't that kind of thing.
But the hostel was a very, you
know, an interesting place.
And then I think when I, when I left
there, you know, I, I really did
want to make something of myself.
And like I say, I ended up, you know,
working at Blockbusters, and then I had
the opportunity to become a manager.
And it was that one person who really
believed in me and saw something in me
and gave me an opportunity, and I'm still
very thankful to her because I think she
was somebody who really mentored me and
saw something in me and, and enabled me to
have a career where- I wasn't, you know,
I wasn't just a shop assistant anymore.
Now I was a manager, and then I
was managing multiple stores, and
it gave me confidence, and it gave
me back- Mm ⦠my confidence in
myself and my ability to achieve.
And then it was, you know, kind of
from that role, you know, that I
went on then to find out about equine
facilitated learning, and I was
able to buy my first horse through
having a management job, you know?
And if I think about where I was at
17, in a homeless hostel, to then
being in my 20s, having a management
job, and being able to buy myself
a horse, you know, that 17-year-old
would have dreamed of that, you know?
And itâ¦
That being around horses again because it
was such a safe space for me as a child.
So I think that was a real focus
for me, was getting a horse, having
that, having that feeling again.
And then that led me
back into this, you know?
And so, you know, it was then that
I kind of quit my job and went
back to university and did a degree
and decided to start the business.
So it was yeah, it was very
much a passion of mine to
always aspire to having a horse.
That was always myâ¦
one of my driving things, was if I n- if I
can, if I can afford a horse, I know I've,
I've made it kind of thing, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And, and to, to a large degree,
I'd say that's true, right?
Because, well, for all
the obvious reasons.
It's so interesting to
listen to that trajectory.
W- what, what it sounds to me like a
little bit, you know, when you listen,
think about in terms of archetypes
and hero's journeys, know y- you're
on a very definite hero's journey at
that point, and, or heroine's journey.
And w- you know, all of the aspects
of the hero's journey are there, like
y- you get drawn into it reluctantly.
You don't, you don't wanna find yourself
in the hostel, but there you are.
And then there's a sort of perhaps
a slightly despairing time w- where
there's a sort of death of the ego.
You know?
It's like, well, I'm a, I'm a nice girl
from an upper middle class background.
I'm in the Cotswolds, and I
have horses and I'm g- off to
university and I'm gonna doâ¦
And then, no I've sort of lost my status.
Here are these people treating
me as if I'm a, a loser.
And I've just gotta kinda deal with that.
But I've also gotta find the tools.
I've gotta find my
Yoda, as Luke Skywalker.
I've gotta find my way out
of the White Witch's dungeon.
I've got to acquire some skills here.
And it's interesting that- Listening to
the story, one of the skills that you
definitely seem to have acquired is the
ability to create community and tribe,
which that's why I was intrigued, I think,
by the story of the relationship between
the girls in the hostel, that it wasn't
hostile and competitive and coming from
a sort of scarcity, "Well, if, if this
girl gets something then I don't getâ¦"
That you actually all kind
of had each other's backs.
But that is a skill to learn
because it can of course go
differently in people's experiences.
And of course gratitude,
learning gratitude.
Well, actually, yeah, I, I
am able to solve problems.
I am able to reap from the good things of
my background, even if it's ended up here.
You know, I'm, I'm lucky that a
certain number of these skills
have been implanted in me.
How can I use them?
And it is, it's an inspiring hero's
journey, you know, that, and as you
say, it sort of your, your, your
purchase of the horse is the sort of
the horse, you ride the horse, you
know, either back into Narnia or out of
Narnia depending on which way you think
the, the White Witch is, is heading.
And where Aslan happens to be currently.
And now here you are absolutely giving
back on this sort of institutional level.
And for those people who are listening,
I was just at Nikki's Place about two
weeks ago and looking around at this
incredible facility with these very
dedicated people, and there's the
wakeboard lakes over there, and there
are the beautiful trails where you
can go and check out deer and hares.
And there are the, you know,
there's the arena and there's the
round pen and there's Nikki, you
know, Captain Nikki doing her thing
steering the ship and c- commanding
the ship and in a very sweet way
So hats off, you know, it,
it's, it's really impressive.
A lot of people from horsey backgrounds
don't necessarily have a story like that.
And I think it's therefore tricky for
them sometimes to empathize with people
who are less fortunate less advantaged
because it, you know, it, it can be a bit
of an, as you say, a bit of a sheltering,
bit of an insulating thing, as well as
giving great life skills You now sort
of create many young women who do get to
learn these problem-solving skills through
horses and education, just like you did.
And now you're seeing some of them
going off and entering the workforce and
getting off to college and so on, which
is, must make your heart feel fulfilled.
What's next for you?
What's, where do you want to take this?
Where do you want to develop it?
You're still young.
You're still, you know, you could
argue, at the start of things because
things have reached a certain maturity.
But as we know, that's always just
the beginning of the next stage.
W- w- where do you wanna go from here?
Nicola Hepburn: Well, I think, you
know, kind of extending the education
program and the therapeutic work.
I'm always going to want to do that.
You know, but I've been thinking
recently a lot about wellness work
and about working with people.
I think wellness is a really big
thing at the moment about creating
wellness opportunities for, you know-
Rupert Isaacson: For yourself
'cause you're so tired.
But
now you can get stressed
providing wellness, yeah.
Yeah.
Nicola Hepburn: But I think, you know,
just like wellness for, you know,
maybe for women, you know, middle-aged
women, I think there's a lot- Mm-hmm
um, you know, there's
a lot of awareness around menopause
and around you know, stress and around,
you know, various different things.
Even grief or, you know, I'm, I'm
interested in working with people who,
you know, maybe a m- a family member has
cancer or they have cancer, you know.
I think there's a lot of other things
like that that I haven't explored
with the business that I'd like to
look at, you know, from more of a
wellness perspective and how being
around the horses can benefit people-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
Nicola Hepburn: um, from that perspective.
And I think maybe I'm doing it
again, you know, maybe it's creating
the the environment, you know,
that, that I'd like to be in.
So I, I think it's, whatever we do in,
in this work, there's always an element
of personal influence in it, isn't there?
So I think-
Rupert Isaacson: There has to
be, otherwise, w- w- in a funny
way, what else are you, what,
what else are you drawing on?
Yeah.
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
So I think maybe, I think as, you know, as
I've developed and I've, you know, changed
it, you know, my, my kind of things
that I'm interested in change as well.
But I think the education part of
what we do is something that I want to
continue with, but I'm, you know, I'm
really looking at a lot of wellness
stuff at the moment as well and how
we can, how we can work in that way.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting that
you bring up menopause because, you
know, in, I think a lot of people who'll
be listening to this or watching this
are probably women either approaching
menopause or in menopause, or perhaps on
the other side of menopause, and it seems
to hit everybody differently But what we
know is it hits ev- 50% of the population.
You could, I think, argue to some
degree that it hits 100% of the
population because there is, to some
degree, a male menopause as well.
It's not, doesn't manifest
in quite the same way.
And men are generally very
silent about how they suffer.
But there's a sort of retreat into,
can be a retreat into loneliness.
There can be a retreat into ill health.
There can be a retreat into despair,
which you see men go into in their
50s sometimes, and early 60s.
And then when they retire and their
job is no longer their identity there
can sometimes be a huge collapse.
And then we've got, you know, young
men loneliness which is a whole thing.
But a lot of the women I know, your
colleagues, my colleagues right when the
Success of the equine-assisted program
kicks in and things become even more
demanding because now you have staff
to look after you and you have a large
program and a lot more responsibility,
and you've got to fundraise, and
you, you know, blah, blah, blah.
That's, of course, when your body
goes, "Oh, surprise," you know.
We're gonna make things tricky now.
And you're just gonna
have to power through.
Some people seem to go through
it with relatively little upset.
Some people, it hits them like a freight
train, and all points in between.
W- what do you think is the need?
What do you, you know, I don't
know whether you're menopausal,
perimenopausal, or whatever, but y-
you're, it- it- it- it's- it's gonna
be part of your reality whichever.
W- what do you feel would be, as
a woman, the, the, the sort of, is
there, is there a sort of bottom
line need that you think cou- sh-
could and should be addressed there?
Nicola Hepburn: I think, you know,
it's f- I think it's very much around
people having, again, it's back to a
safe space to go where they can talk
to other women, and it can, people
understand, and people can empathize
with each other and share experiences.
You know, I think, I think obviously
there's a need for education.
I think there's a lot of stigma around
HRT, and there's still stigma around, you
know- Mm-hmm ⦠talking about menopause.
And you know, I think actually you
know, Louise Newson in the, in the UK,
she's done a lot of work around making
information about menopause much more
accessible, and people being able to,
you know, have the right medication.
And so I think it's that kind of need for
people to be able to talk about it with
people and be able to get good advice
and good information and feel supported.
I think really where the horses come
in and the, the wellness work is around
you know, a safe space where people can,
can go, and if they're having a shit
day, say, "I'm having a really crap day.
I'm feeling like this," and
there's gonna be no judgment.
There's gonna be
understanding and support.
And you know, just again,
a person-centered provision
where people feel listened to.
And I think it's the same, it's
the same kind of approach but just
to a different demographic really.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Mm.
I'm f- gonna be fascinated
to see how it manifests.
And, and then one that was, well,
lovely thing is you've got a lovely
cold lake there you can all jump into.
Our, our our mutual friend and colleague,
Terry Brosnan, you know, who runs
the big Horse Boy center at, at, in,
outside Dublin, at Stuart's Care.
She says, "Rupert, thank God
for cold water swimming."
You know, but it, often these
things actually do come down very
much to the physical too, like one
needs- Okay, you're overheating.
What, what are we gonna do about this?
It's, it's, w- as you know, as we're
sitting here in summer 2026, and
we're dealing with climate warming
temperatures, you know, and you're
out there standing in that arena,
and you're suffering hot flashes.
What are you gonna do?
Like, what, what is, what can we
actually physically do to cool down?
What can we do to feel more
comfortable, feel better?
Well, the first thing we have to be
able to do is talk about it, right?
Because if we can't fess up to
the fact that this is happening
and we're suffering, then it's a
quick road to the grave, really.
I mean, it's, it's, it's,
it's that level of crisis.
I'm welcoming this conversation
because the field that you and I
are in is largely female driven.
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Most of those women
now are coming of age to this sort
of c- they're sort of, they're coming
to their queen time of the life,
which coincides with this massive
physical and hormonal challenge.
I, I, I so agree with you that
the stigma around HRT I don't
think is to anybody's benefit.
No.
And I, I don't really see what-
benefit there is to allowing 50%
of the workforce and the managerial
force and the entrepreneurial force
to be sort of slain by a dragon th-
without ⦠No, you give them a sword
and a shield, but it's, it's all right
to admit that the dragon is there.
Have you got plans to actually implement
this in your, in, in your practice?
And if so, like, what are
the little pilot projects?
What are the toes in the
water that you might be doing
in the next couple of years?
Nicola Hepburn: I'm looking at
initially looking at some retreats.
We've been looking at, you know,
running some retreats 'cause we've
got an ideal setting for it with the
horses, like you say, with the lakes.
We've got sauna.
We've got the woodland.
We've, you know ⦠So it's just
such a, a beautiful site and, you
know, I've got friends who do yoga.
And I, you know, I know that you're
running retreats as well, so I'm talking
to people about running retreats.
Mm-hmm.
And we're thinking maybe a little pilot
retreat for a few days this summer.
But I'm also interested in
running some support groups.
It's all very in its inception
at the moment, you know.
Mm-hmm.
You know, haven't really got much
further than that at the moment.
That's, you know, where I am, but we
are looking at organizing, like, a small
retreat at some point this summer for
just a few days as, like, a, a test
run to see what works and what, you
know, what people want really, Mm-hmm
comes to this.
But it's a very different approach for
me really, a different demographic.
So it's gonna take a bit-
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely
⦠Nicola Hepburn: work it out.
And you know, again, do the right
research so that we're really providing
what people, what's gonna be of
use to people and help people, so.
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
spoiler alert listeners.
We will, Nikki and I are gonna
do something next summer.
And I think what would be really good with
that is we, I think we need to reach out
to men as well who are going through that
⦠Do we call it a midlife crisis anymore?
Do we call it a two-thirds of
the way th- through life crisis?
Do we call it male menopause?
I don't know what we call it, but
we know that there's suffering,
and we know that there's-
D- disassociation from each other that
this is where often relationships break
down right when people have built,
spent decades building stuff together.
And the sudden breakdowns in communication
and understanding, do they need to happen?
I mean, everybody needs to
feel seen and heard, right?
You know, men do, women do.
Are there ways that we can draw upon
what we've been doing with special
needs and neurodiverse all these years
to help ourselves and those like us to
effectively keep putting one foot in
front of the other when the rules change?
Because yeah, it's, it's
change is distressing.
Nicola Hepburn: And we're- Yeah.
I, I heard something that I thought
was really interesting that said
that, you know, the people who stay
with you through your life are the
people who can change with you- Mm-hmm
who are going to accept when you change.
And I think the problem- Mm ⦠a lot of
the time when people expect other people
to stay the same, so- Mm ⦠you know,
maybe it's learning to accept people,
people's changes and grow with them, you
know, that's a huge, a huge thing to-
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Right ⦠which, I, I think it goes,
it goes beyond acceptance, doesn't it?
I think it has to go to
like more like to curiosity.
It's like, "Oh, Nikki, you know,
I've known you all this time, and
now you're this sort of new Nikki.
Help me to explore and appreciate
those com- complexities.
Like, how can youâ¦
Howâ¦
Rather than saying, "Well, no,
I want you to be the old Nikki."
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You say, "Well,
Rupert, you know, sorry, but with
the best will in the world, I'm not.
You know, I'm still here if you
wanna come along for the ride,
but I myself don't perhaps know."
You know?
But I do think, yeah, it's, it's w-
it's almost like we're, we're not
encouraged to be curious perhaps
'cause we're afraid, perhaps because
we're encouraged to be afraid, perhaps
because we're told we'll be punished,
again, if we ask the wrong question
or make the wrong assumption orâ¦
But maybe we need to make those
wrong assumptions and ask those wrong
questions in order to get on the other
side of them to ask the right ones.
But is there a safe space where we
can do that without getting vilified?
You know, or if, if we're so afraid
of being vilified, will we just
be paralyzed and drift apart?
And I do think that happens to people.
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because, you
know, I think this is something
that, that needs to be addressed.
Anger is always a big
part of the work we do.
So, you know, when you're dealing
with a, a small person who's having
a lot of trouble, neurodiverse,
going through transitions, you
deal with distress and anger.
You know, when you're, when you're a young
adult and your amygdala is in advance
of your prefrontal cortex at 17, 18, 13,
whatever, you deal with a lot of anger.
Menopause, a lot of anger comes through.
Now, is that a creative force?
Can that be explored as a creative force?
But it's also painful to
deal with, difficult to deal
with, dangerous to deal with.
The fear is real.
If, if you're a man who says the
wrong thing, the fear is real.
The lashing out is very real.
Similarly, if you're a woman and
you say the wrong thing to a man,
the, the lashing out is very real.
This human anger thing,
male or female, how do weâ¦
I, I think that that is
what keep, keeps people
too afraid to engage.
Do you know what I mean?
Like h- what, what, what do we deal,
how, h- how do, how do we bridge that?
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, I think, I think
people need, you know, it's hard sometimes
to recognize a feeling or recognize
why you're feeling a feeling, you know?
And I think i- or understanding
why you feel angry, you know?
And I think, I think this, this
time of life is, there's lots of
other things going on, you know, as
well with people's parents getting
sick or children leaving home or-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
Nicola Hepburn: doing exams
or going to university.
I think it's, it's a time of a
lot of pressures, you know- Mm
and a lot of different things going on.
And so it's, you know, do people
always necessarily have the time to
think about themselves and the root
of their feelings or the root of their
anger and where it's coming from?
Do they have to- Mm ⦠think about
that 'cause they're so absorbed with
everything else that's going on?
It's, I don't know.
I don't have the answers, but-
Yeah ⦠I think it's a, it's
a very interesting question.
Rupert Isaacson: I suspect that
nature's always gonna be the answer.
I suspect that the return
of the nervous system-
Nicola Hepburn: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: to a sort of reset
which only nature can provide, right?
But I suspect one probably will need
to do that more often than less often,
that we, we put so much attention on
to helping of young people because they
got their lives ahead of them, and we
want, you know, to s- set them sail on
the ocean in the best ship that we can.
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But once they're
out there, you know, Mid-Atlantic,
there's, you know, some waves and
some storms, and by the time they get
to the Mid-Atlantic, they're older.
By the time they land on the
foreign shore, they're older still.
By the time they're setting up
camp there, perhaps a, you know,
they're a decade or two in.
And as you say, the pressures get greater.
You happen to have, I think, that place
despite it being in a very, you know,
well-populated part of the British Isles.
It's not far from Birmingham,
you know, not far from London.
But yeah, it's very rural where you are.
It's deeply rural.
You hear the owls at night, see the stars.
I suspect you'll be able to give people
access to what they need, and I, I'm
excited to see how you offer that
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
It's gonna be, it's gonna be an
exciting new adventure, I think.
Something yeah, that's ⦠I
think it's got a lot of potential.
And I think, you know, like you say,
it's the same thing with the children.
The environment just lends
itself to the therapeutic.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
'Cause
Nicola Hepburn: it's, it is j- You
know, before we do anything, we've got
this beautiful therapeutic environment,
so we're very lucky to have that as
a starting, a starting point really.
And you know, the lakes as well, I think,
you know, being near water- Mm ⦠the
research, you know, this is very similar
to the research around horses, isn't it?
Yeah.
You know?
And it's the same as being
in woodland, isn't it?
The research of what it
does to you physically-
Rupert Isaacson: Yes
⦠Nicola Hepburn: being in those
environments is, is- Yes ⦠huge impact.
So I think, yeah, I think the ha- having
a retreat in that environment where you
understand what's going on, and then you
can take away from that and apply it to
your life elsewhere, I think that would
be really valuable to a lot of people.
Rupert Isaacson: It will.
Well, I can't wait to do it with you.
And for those, those people who are
listening and watching, send us an email.
You know where to reach us, and we'll
⦠If you wanna come on one of these early
retreats then you can also go up to
Stratford-on-Avon up the road afterwards
or before and have a little chat with
Shakespeare and An- Anne Hathaway.
Okay.
Well, Nikki, it's been fan- fantastic.
How do people contact you?
Give us the plugs, websites, contacts,
offerings, what people can contact you
for not just the services, but also, you
know- Guidance, tuition, consultation
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
Well, the website is, is
the the best place to go, so
it's equinelearning.org.uk.
And there's a contact us page on
the website that you can, you can
send a ⦠You know, if you have
a query, you can send it to there.
Or there's an email address, which
is hello@equinelearning.org.uk.
But all our contact details
are, are on the website.
If you Google Equine Learning,
it, you know, it should come up.
And yeah, I mean, people can get in
touch with me about our therapeutic
services, about our camps, about retreats.
We are looking at running some.
We do private stays for families at the
moment, if they want to come and stay and
bring a child and stay on site and do some
work with the horses and use the lakes and
the other facilities here, we can do that.
We are looking at running
some camps again next summer.
And then obviously for therapeutic
work and education we, we can also do
education on a more remote basis for
people who may not be in the local
area who might be interested in doing
a qualification with our organization.
So, yeah, those are all the
things that we can, we can offer.
And,
Rupert Isaacson: And, and
once again, the website?
Nicola Hepburn: It's
equinelearning.org.uk.
Rupert Isaacson: Equinelearning.org.uk.
And I'm sure that there's a, an email
link on there that they can reach you at.
Nicola Hepburn: Yeah.
There's a contact us page.
It's got all our contact details on there.
Rupert Isaacson: Super.
All right.
Well, I think we should probably come
on and have this conversation again
after we've done the first retreat next
year, so I guess we say to be continued.
Nicola Hepburn: Okay.
Well, thank you very much for, for
inviting me along today, Rupert.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it's
been my great pleasure
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