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Running a business is one thing. Building a business that pays you, funds your lifestyle, and creates real wealth? That’s different.
On ZFO Insider, we take you behind the scenes of how high-performing entrepreneurs turn their everyday operations into generational wealth machines; businesses that create real income, lasting freedom, and a legacy that actually matters.
This is your Masterclass in financial vision and business scaling.
Real Numbers. Real Stories. Real Strategies, that turn your cash flow into power.
See you on the inside.
You've invested in the systems, you've upgraded your tools, you even hired the people, but
still your business isn't clicking.
The more you push, the more it feels like something is breaking.
If you've been trying to take your business to the next level, you've already invested
heavily, but you still feel stuck.
This is the episode you didn't know you needed.
Today I'm having a conversation with Tawana Bagwatt, a renowned fractional HR executive
and turnaround specialist.
Over the past 25 years, she has helped enterprise companies save millions.
not just by cutting costs, but by reshaping how leaders lead and how teams function.
My organization used AI.
It has made us more efficient.
Right?
I would even say it's made us more effective.
Our leaders are struggling as well.
And there's a double standard.
Because the minute you get labeled as a leader, expected to know.
HR isn't a support role.
It's a business multiplier.
If you get this part right, your business will grow fast.
But if you get it wrong, it can quickly compromise everything.
built.
In this episode of the ZFO Insider, you'll learn what it takes to build a team that
doesn't just work for you, but actually works with you.
Let's dive in.
Hey, Twana.
Hey, Zo.
How you doing?
Good.
Thank you so much for coming on board with us today.
I'm honored to be here.
Now, our conversations when we first met have been so riveting, honestly, so encouraging,
so insightful.
There's a lot of depth in it, and I think we've really hit it off well.
I agree.
I was looking forward to reconnecting, and you just put me on the spot.
Let's connect, podcast.
Yeah.
OK, I'm here.
You know, that's one of my ulterior motives a little bit.
I love that.
But yeah, let's dive in.
So we were, really talking about the people.
Yes.
Right.
We, we talked and I shared with you this formula that I have been workshopping that really
just shows the components of a business in simple terms.
Right.
It is the offer minus fulfillment minus management multiplied by HR or people and IT
equals profit.
And so today we're focusing on the people.
Yes.
So you're a HR turnaround specialist actually.
Yeah.
Right.
I think that's really unique because you told me that you've turned you've gone into some
very sticky situations before.
I have and you know some I can talk about and some I can't.
The ones I can I'm going to share with you all today.
But what I will tell you is our organizations are suffering.
Right.
There's lots of change happening.
um And our leaders are struggling as well.
And there's a double standard because the minute you get labeled as a leader, you're
expected to know.
I know exactly what that feels like.
Exactly.
All right.
So you've helped what you've done and your experience in working with companies.
The culture shift that you're able to, I guess, enact, enable, has saved companies
millions in some cases.
Tell me when you walk first walk into a business, what's usually broken about the people?
So I call it my four P's.
Policies, practices, procedures.
And I just do a blank on my fourth one.
Policy practices, procedures and processes.
Process.
I could not forget process, but I processes.
um And what I would say to you about those is the undergird of that.
As you think about the broader spoke, spoke, stroke.
Yeah.
any organization is that leadership has to be aligned.
So when I go into organizations, the first thing I see is that leaders typically are not
leveraging their collective strengths.
There's a divide, right?
Because everyone now has their own agenda.
They want their department to succeed.
They want their department to get the most money.
They want the focus on their department as being the most important.
Right.
So that's what I mean by a collective strengths that they're not leveraging.
Yeah.
The second thing I would say that I see when I walk in is that they don't understand that
their people are the most valuable asset and you have to unleash them, you got to know
what you have beyond the job description to truly do that.
And I would say the third thing is around decision-making.
I see there's a misalignment on decision making, let alone a decision made and then
sticking to that decision.
And so those are the three things that I would tell you that I experienced.
And when you drill down, then you see the four Ps not being played out.
They're not worth the paper they're written on.
Yeah.
You said that ah your people are more than their job description.
Yeah.
I want to dig into that a bit.
more because in the environment that we are, know, we're all excited about automations and
technology and software's AI and things.
I have a theory that as the flow of as information becomes cheaper and cheaper, people
become more valuable and valuable.
Some people don't agree with that though.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat, right?
So my organization use AI.
It is made us more efficient.
I would even say has made us more effective and how we're able to respond.
It's cut out some of the heavy administrative, but you still need people for the emotional
intelligence, the emotional intelligence, not the artificial intelligence.
The other reason why we need people is to interpret what we're actually seeing, what I'm
experiencing, because what you and I both know, we can take a text message, for example.
I send you a text, it could be in all capital letters and exclamation points like emails.
And you can think, is that person excited or pissed off?
I need a person to be able to translate that interpretation or understanding of what's
really happening.
And AI does not give me that.
Yeah, it's like people are too dynamic to copy.
And even by the time you've copied them,
We've evolved.
Yeah, you've changed.
it shows in the flexibility of how the organization communicates to its people, its
constituents, its clients.
There is no way that we will be able to, in my opinion, replace what a human brings to the
table.
However, there will not be a job that will not require the use of AI.
So for those of you who are resisting as a way of preserving your job, are eliminating
yourself from the equation.
Literally.
that will be part of a qualification.
I'm glad you brought this up because what it makes me think, everyone has an opinion of
what is going to happen with AI.
Some people think it's the end of the world.
Others think it's the evolution of mankind.
I've come to see that I believe that it, as you say,
It is setting a new minimum standard.
Absolutely.
Across all organizations.
Absolutely.
I put it, I give this example, like if their expectation for your 40 hours before AI was
for you to run 10 miles per hours for 40 hours, the expectation now has doubled.
That's right.
You need to be running 20 miles per hour for the same amount of time that you spend
working.
Yep.
But the interesting thing is, that people who
the quality of person who uses it or the skill set of the person using it, the gap will
exponentially increase.
Absolutely.
So now the people who were actually skilled at being at whatever they were delivering in
the organization now are able to run not at 20 miles per hour, but even at 200 miles per
hour.
Absolutely.
And it's going to be like, whoa, crazy.
I told my wife, what if Usain Bolt had a jetpack?
or had assistants, even if I had the same equipment, I would not be able to run as fast as
him.
You get what because his talent and skills still plays a part.
plays a part.
Absolutely, absolutely.
I totally agree with you.
And I am encouraging everyone who's listening to this call, if you have not adopted AI in
some shape or form of fashion into your organization, you're going to be left behind as a
organization or as a individual.
Yeah.
Right.
The idea though, what if AI bought us work life balance?
Yeah.
Cause you got work done and you don't have to open up your laptop again after you've gone
home and put in, you know, 10 hours in a day.
Yeah.
What about that?
And I can tell you that's what I am pushing in organizations around work life balance,
leveraging AI as a way to get things done, to be ahead of the curve, to excel.
The resistance is the thing that will have you not have a job.
Not the adoption of it will bring you balance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sorry.
hold tangent.
Because in the, in the equation I mentioned, uh people in tech is the multiplier in
business and they often are side by side.
People are empowered by the technology that they use and the tech is made effective by the
people using it.
And even with tech, you gotta push a button.
You can put it on autopilot to turn on or off, but there's somebody programming.
There's somebody somewhere doing something.
All right.
So we said that HR and AI, but we're focused on HR, right?
Is a multiplier in a business.
When you hear that it is a multiplier in a business, what comes to mind?
So one, I wanted to make sure that we're super clear, because we got to clear out that old
mindset about HR being a support function.
my goodness.
an add-on, right?
As an afterthought.
I could do all these things.
And then when, using my language, S hit the fan.
Then I call for crisis.
That's old school.
The other thing that I would say to you is that HR is more than just, you know,
paper pushing or planning.
Yeah.
you need to tell us that because we have an assumption that most of small businesses don't
prioritize uh HR at all.
And don't use it.
They don't think about it.
It actually is the only thing that actually is the first thing that started the business.
Absolutely.
Because you were the person.
Right.
And you were doing all the things that you would say HR do that you did not know how to
do.
And you got
through it by research and calling a friend, like a lifeline.
There's a show that does that, call a friend when you can't answer the question, right?
So I did want to just start out with clarifying that because that's so super important.
But what I say and agree with you that HR is a multiplier because HR touches every corner
of your organization.
So how does HR amplify?
as a multiplier.
That's what we do.
We amplify the performance.
We amplify the development of your leaders.
We amplify the talent in which you bring into the organization.
Those are the things that are game changing that you as an executive, as a CFO, as a COO,
that's not necessarily your wheelhouse or expertise.
So you're hoping to develop the person.
You hope that you got the right next person.
Hoping.
We don't run our business on hope.
We deal with actual facts, statistics, right, qualifications.
So that's why I say that HR is a multiplier because it's an amplifier, because it touches
every aspect of your organization.
I think the other thing that is important for uh leaders, for entrepreneurs, for CEOs and
others to think about is that what HR brings.
to the table that is super important, that is a culture that we help establish for you.
And in that culture, if done right, HR is not always done right.
And I've been doing it for a long time to be able to say that and can hold my own in that
statement.
Is that when done right, what HR does bring is that we focus on the environment that will
create a thriving employee.
When employees are thriving, businesses boom.
Businesses boom when employees are thriving.
What makes an employee thrive when they're seen, heard, and valued?
All leaders don't know what it takes to have people to thrive or create an environment or
have an eye for it.
So long-winded, No, you're good.
Right, magnifier, multiplier.
Yeah, no, it is definitely important to pour into the people.
Yeah.
And honestly, the business in and of itself is to serve people works through people and
the results is for the people.
So even if AI came in, it's going to least be serving people at end of the day.
So you can't disconnect from that.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So you've transformed your work has been you've been working in enterprise companies.
For those of us who understand enterprise, that's usually very large organizations, 50
plus employees, things like that.
I want you to talk about uh a transformational story.
Like you've walked in, you told me you go in three months is like your timeline.
I'm sure there's a lot of change and transformation that happens.
ah What's one example of how you've helped like that?
Thank you.
And what I would say is enterprise means
different things to different people.
please explain that.
And so if you're in a entrepreneurial environment, 50 people could sing.
Huge.
Huge.
So it's relative, right?
But 25 could be for someone that only imagined being a solprenuer all of their life.
Where I have supported organizations with 141,000 people.
around the globe.
Okay, my brain just messed up.
Exactly.
I want you to stick with that working at Procter & Gamble.
Then the organizations that I go into today, the largest one I've worked with has had
6,000 to 10,000 employees in 821 countries.
Right?
Yeah, those are different type of problems.
So enterprise is relative when I say that.
But one example that comes to mind for me is I was working with the organization where I
was only supposed to be there for four months as a fractional HR, a professional where I
come in, assess the organization, make changes, and then prepare that organization to hire
the replacement, which is a chief people officer.
And I sit in that seat until that time.
This organization was experiencing deficit, right?
up to $7 million.
So they will require major cuts in all of their programming processes, systems, looking
everywhere, including under rocks, cutting uh executive team salaries.
Also looking at will they have a riff, which is a large separation of people which we're
seeing right now.
Any organization will want to avoid that or have that to be as their last recourse.
I'm sitting in the HR department as their chief HR officer and notice that their benefits
are amazing.
Let me be clear.
So to touch people benefits is like sacred cows.
That's not something you do and you for sure don't take them away.
So as we were assessing, which I'll talk about one of my processes, as we were assessing
the organization,
We were like, these benefits are amazing.
And that's all we heard the organization talk about.
When you supposed to be a mission driven organization, right?
When you love the work that you do.
And so I started to assess their benefits and realize that their employees don't play
copays.
That's unheard of to not have a copay.
Or if they have copays, they're $10, $5 because the organization is known to have great
benefits.
but that was the draw for people to come for benefits.
I would like for that to be number three.
I want you to join us because you believe in our mission.
I want you to join us because our mission, our vision aligns with you as an individual and
the skillsets that you have.
You're bringing that value and in return, we're changing the world.
Cause I'm talking about a nonprofit.
$7 million in deficit.
with a five-star benefits package.
Absolutely.
So I assessed and saw there was so many losses within offering what they were offering.
And by the way, they had plateaued.
So compared to their sister organizations, no one really cared.
However, people just started coming for the benefits.
My husband has cancer.
My daughter has a rare
I get it for the why.
But then they were there for that, not to move the business forward.
So we started to stall.
So after assessing, and it was a hard process for the leaders.
I bet, because you're ripping benefits, things that supporting people's families.
Correct.
But not to take away.
I just wanted to equalize it.
I wanted to bring us up to market, but still be better than market.
Right.
And we have $1.7 million worth of opportunity to still be better than market.
Just by assessing the benefits.
By assessing the benefits and then making changes.
So we changed what a co-pay was.
We changed what you would go to a specialist, but still lower than the market.
Right.
Yeah.
And would say the company $1.7 million.
By the way, with the programming that we would have had to cut and the number of people
that we would have to cut in order to find those savings somewhere else, we saved 200
jobs.
We did not have to close down four programs that were in developing country.
So I stand 10 toes down on that transformation that took me two and a half months to get
all of the leaders to align to.
But for renewal, open enrollment started.
Because that's how we do, under the gun.
uh Yeah, I think that you really are bringing it home on just how impactful that those
decisions are.
And it's one, it saved the integrity of the business.
Correct.
Or at least got them closer.
They 1.2 million closer in that 7 million gap.
But I want you to talk to me about what is it like to go through that transition process.
Because I can imagine that you weren't the most loved person in the room.
I was pretty popular, but not loved.
Very popular, for sure.
Some people had mixed feelings.
Yes.
know, people are joining organizations really for selfish reasons.
Absolutely.
Not bad reasons.
It's just they have their own motivations.
Absolutely.
And you're looking at it from the organization standpoint.
What is like that transition like?
Yeah.
And to be quite honest, people don't expect HR to have a business hat on.
I can take care of people and still have the organization to be successful.
That's a good HR leader, take theory, concepts, ideas, and transform them into strategy.
So that's what I consider the role of HR and in particularly at my level.
So what we did was we walked the leaders through all the options.
We gave them voice.
allow them to be seen and heard, share their fears and concerns before even talking to the
organization because the leaders have to show up with a united front.
And they were not there.
Even after all the data, getting the data was the easy part.
Yeah.
Right?
No, my gosh.
Yeah.
Data is the easy part.
that's easy part, right?
It was getting the leaders to align because they had personal connections with their
employees, which is fantastic.
We want that.
I wanna know who's sick in the organization and how those benefits could impact their
families and friends, you know, and leaders had their own personal agenda.
um And again, not in a negative way.
So we walked through that process and it took us time.
What about this scenario?
What about that scenario?
Can we bring in experts?
Whatever it took to get the leaders aligned because they will be the face that goes out
and deliver the message.
I will...
deliver the overall message to the organization, but then they're gonna have those
individual meetings, they're gonna have those group meetings, and that's how the process
works.
Once we got a line, once we got a bottom line, once we understood the true impact that if
we did or did not do these things, then the work started with the organization.
Now we gotta bring them on board, now we gotta hear their concerns, now we gotta make
space for them to be able to share how that's gonna impact them.
Boy, did it get tough.
I imagine actually brings me to my next question really, because a part of your role is
not just a specialist, but you're an executive coach.
You are literally working on the policies, processes of it all, but like really now
speaking to the leaders, heart, the person of it.
So I'm sure they have to make mental shifts, mindset shifts all the time.
What's one of the biggest mindset shifts that a leader has to make in order to get the
people part?
I love that question.
The biggest mindset shift is they don't have to do it all.
Right?
So say more about that, Tawana.
for you, Like leaders have people that work for them and with them.
but they want it done a certain way.
And we see this a lot with entrepreneurs and small organizations.
Yeah, you're talking to me.
Right?
And we want it done a certain way, and we don't trust.
So we hire people with capability and skill.
We delegate work to them, and then we micromanage versus trust.
We, yeah.
And then we don't hold accountable, we take away.
and the accountability shows up as a blame for a thing gone wrong.
When it's not necessarily wrong, it was just different for how you would do it.
So I spent a lot of time with my leader saying, is this really a problem?
Did we set clear expectations?
Did we give boundaries and parameters for, and did we truly set the person up for success?
But at the root of that is fear of letting go.
Yeah, some, when I bring on a person and I'm in the process of expanding my team as well,
um we are probably going to be seven by the end of the year.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So one of the things that I find with, you know, turnover people or just, it's just that
the trust factor.
Yeah.
But it's usually, it's usually something to work through at the beginning, at the early
stages.
Right.
And it's more so, okay, I give you this task.
I might be having expectations of how quickly it's going to get back to me, the level of
quality it is, how much thought you've put into it.
And sometimes within the first few weeks, month, is that standard is not being hit.
Is that means just not trusting them or giving them enough time?
Or maybe I just didn't put them, give them all the support around to actually be
successful.
could be all the things, but.
My experience has been you've given a test and didn't tell me what to study for.
oh So the likelihood that I will fail, the probability is high.
Right?
Because I'm looking for these things.
But we talk about expectations.
But do we really give them?
Like, I'm giving you an assignment, so I need it done by this date.
Here's what I expect.
for it to look like I really want to receive that back in an Excel spread.
Right, so I'm given the parameters of that.
I'm not telling you where to go look, who to talk to, all those things, but I've given the
parameters that I would determine for it to be a success.
And then there are some intangibles that I expect that you're gonna come back and ask
questions.
So I'm testing to see if you do it.
Why would not open up with, hey, I have an open door policy.
If you have any questions, are you uncertain about something?
Just knock on my door, give me a call, ping me, whatever the case may be.
We don't say that.
We're like, I wanna see if that's what they gonna do.
And then what about the new person?
They're trying to prove themselves.
So they wanna be perfect and do everything right.
So they're not gonna naturally come to you.
And then you ding them like, that was something simple.
You could easily came to me.
So we got that on both ends.
So I say that sometimes our leaders that people up to not be successful, even though we
think we are.
But at the root of that mindset shift is that you don't have to do it all by yourself.
And that is a hard thing because that requires a letting go.
And we're not good at letting our babies go.
No, no.
You raised them and so it's a little bit hard.
But you can't do those things.
Yeah.
You gotta move on.
Yeah, for sure.
It's like you already know, you know the right thing to do.
It's actually hard to do the thing you already know.
I actually share that with a bunch of my audience.
I have these weekly office hours that I share.
one of the things that I realized that many of us already know the exact thing we need to
do.
Like it's easy to get aware of the truth of the thing you need to do.
It's hard to actually do it.
Right.
It's hard to actually take the stuff forward because it hurts.
Takes muscles.
And that's part of the executive coaching, right?
I'm dealing with leaders, but I'm not an expert in their industry or a sector, for
example.
However, what I am doing though is the work on shifting the mindset, right?
I'm having them to imagine if, does that feel good?
yeah, I wish I was in the way.
And so we deal with what's in the way.
Yeah.
So you mentioned that going through the coaching
process is similar to a relationship.
Yes.
Very eerily similar.
And you even mentioned this pathway, you called it the honeymoon stage.
Yeah.
The power struggle.
Yeah.
And the maturity.
Yeah.
Talk us through that.
How do those play out in executive leadership?
I love that.
So thank you.
This is also some practice as you talked about you bringing forward your formula.
Yeah.
I'm also learning this after being married for 28 years.
Yes.
I'm a little bit behind you.
Four years on my part.
Just a little bit.
And so what I am learning about marriage that I've translated to organizations as well is
there are shifts, there are stages that organizations go through and then they repeat
every time you grow.
Yeah.
And so to know that you're going through this cycle is so important.
So the first stage we talked about was the honeymoon stage.
And that's where we're forming, right?
We're polite.
It's like polished shoes, right?
So a new leader or team show up, everybody got on their best outfit, shoes, polished.
The jokes are so fire.
Everybody's so happy to be here.
Exactly.
But not only that, it's like a stage.
Like you just walked on a...
Ted's stage and you got all the biggest, brightest ideas, right?
Cause that's the we stage.
How can we, right?
But that can't or typically don't last long because the real test comes.
Reality hits.
Exactly.
Which I call that struggle stage, which by the way, we stay in it for a long time because
we are learning each other.
And that's where the difference is set in, right?
It's a we and them or a.
or me and y'all stage, which we see in leadership, right?
So the first time those real numbers come in for the quarter and they ain't met, a
deadline is missed, we start to point the finger at what's wrong, what woulda, shoulda,
coulda have occurred.
That's that power struggle.
I want the...
CEO to look at me as the savior.
Right.
It's like they didn't do this.
Right.
But I got the answer.
I got the solution.
Focus on my department.
We the one that deliver the programming and that's because of the program.
And that's how we get money.
Yeah.
So that support team over there, we don't need, but that HR team you don't need is the one
that process your paycheck.
So we should be nice to them.
Right.
So when you walk in through that.
struggle phase within a marriage or an organization, there's a divide.
But struggle is ordained.
It's needed because that's how we learn about the differences.
But still we are not utilizing them to the fullest potential because we're blaming.
We're not holding people accountable.
We're pointing the finger.
But as we move to that mature phase, that's that interdependency coming in.
Okay.
Where I'm clear that I need finance to do these things.
I need HR to do these things.
Then program can do these things.
Right.
And then there is the handshakes that are occurring.
Right.
And then there's handoffs.
I can let that go because that's not my area.
That's not my lane.
We had shook finance till we got the money in the door.
HR took it and now they're processing it.
Got the hours and et cetera.
And so as we think about the mature stage and the interdependencies of marriage, we also
think about accountability, about a truth that we didn't have before, about feedback
coming naturally and easily and not as assumed, right?
And we're leveraging differences.
That collective strengths show up in a way that will have your organization to now look up
to the leadership team and say, that's our model.
That's how we should be doing it down here on the lower level.
And that's how I equate marriage, the children looking up, the parents on a line, right?
But they're divided, so we're fighting too down here and everybody get to get away with
all the madness.
I want you to, so you mentioned about accountability and, not blaming.
Yes.
How would you merge, how does that done well in an organization?
Like you interdepend on, I mean, even with people, you interdepend on the people.
you don't hit the result, how do I hold accountable without blaming?
Yeah, that's so important.
And the first thing at the root of that is expectation.
Most times expectations are not clear.
People can say, I'm one of the best communicators.
I even say that about myself.
And when I don't get the desired result, before looking at you, I look at myself.
What did I communicate to Zoe?
What was the expectation?
What was the timeline?
When did I get, right?
I go through all the, did I do check-ins?
Right, so you set expectation first, provide the tools, skills necessary to deliver
against those expectations.
And then thirdly, you check in to make sure they're being delivered.
And if not, you give feedback.
And that is a cycle that you keep repeating.
Even though people are like, well, I've given the feedback and they haven't delivered.
Well, then we can't give the same feedback.
Right, then the feedback escalate.
Then we bring in additional resources if we're not capable.
Yeah.
But that's how we hold accountable without blame.
But we got to see it through because it's work.
It is.
don't like conflict.
No, I don't like conflict.
people.
I am people.
Like conflict is um actually a thing I have to get comfortable with.
Yeah.
I've had to get comfortable with.
where it's like, I will have the hard conversations.
You will know how comfortable you are in conflict when you realize that you have to let a
person go.
They don't fit the culture.
The expectations weren't set.
Maybe it's even my fault.
So I've gone through that a couple of times over the last couple of years, and that's what
really challenged me on hard conversations.
And even, you know, all of my hard conversations in marriage.
prepares you for it for sure.
But what about having support though, right?
Again, HR brings support, coaching leaders through how to have those conversations, not
doing it for them, but coaching them through it, by being in the room, right?
But also speaking to the employee before the tough conversations happen.
And I also think that tough gets a bad rep.
It does.
Right?
Just because something is tough,
Does that mean you avoid it or not do it?
That's how human nature, but that's not necessarily the best way through a thing.
Yeah.
mean, that's what the struggle phase is.
Like you can't actually get to maturity unless you pass through it.
And that's where your biggest growth occur.
Yeah.
It occurs in the struggle.
That's why I actually, when I look back on the things that I've been through, especially
when I started my career in, in, with
Deloitte, have you heard?
And it was a hard environment, Deloitte audit.
Very hard environment.
Expectations are really hard.
And it's a high turnover type of culture.
And when immediately you leave that environment, you're like, man, I didn't love it.
I hated it.
I'm so glad I left.
Fast forward six years.
I look back and I'm like,
I'm so glad that I actually endured and went through that because it shaped me in my
resilience, my own professionalism, my own ability to just to be effective.
Right.
It taught me so many things that you didn't really, you don't want to do.
But now that I've had that experience, now I'm entering into another basically MBA
program.
Yeah.
voluntarily.
Yeah.
Because I know the hard work actually is going to produce some maturity.
It was preparing you for the now.
Yeah.
It prepared you for the now.
And I would say all of us, if we look back, have those trials that we've gone through that
have said, had I not, I would not know how to do this today.
Yeah.
That is a builder.
Sure.
It's a builder.
And I'm also appreciative of my own.
Builders.
For sure.
All right.
So I want to talk about this one concept, this other concept that you have.
You call it the four Rs.
Can you tell us what that is?
So as I, this is on my coaching side, right?
Because I talk about, I went through a time where being is the new doing because as
overachievers,
We do, we get a plan, we execute that plan and we still feel unfulfilled.
And we're like, what are we missing?
Because who do we give up internally in order to deliver this thing or be this thing?
So as I've been growing in my coaching as well as life, one of the things that I realized
was there's a few things that you go through as methods.
And one of the Rs is the realization.
So when we talk about the realization that you have, you go through a trial, a difficult
time, a lesson, call it whatever, you have a realization and it's an aha moment.
It could either be about something you learned or that you learned about someone else that
will have you to be able to move through a thing.
And upon moving through that, it requires a release.
And most times I'm letting go of a belief that I had or something I thought was a core
value that defined who I was, but is no longer serving me.
So that's the release, right?
There's a realization, there's a release.
And I keep drawing a blank on my arm.
The reality, thank you.
And then the reality of the thing is to have no judgment, right?
I don't have any judgment.
It's just my current reality.
because there's a reality and then there's the so what.
Where do I go from here?
What do I do now?
And I move my leaders through this uh process so that they are super clear that if I spend
my time worrying about what people are gonna say or what I'm saying about me, then I get
stuck, right?
So the reality, the realization, the release, the reality.
That's my last one.
Reflection.
Reflection.
Isn't reflection so powerful?
Yeah, the whole process you need to reflect on is- Right.
It's a do loop there, right?
But the reflection of it is I can look back and see where I've grown from.
yes.
Yeah.
What I've changed, what I will change, it brings possibility in that reflection.
And then the only thing that's required of you is to commit to you.
Most times we reflect and go, I'm gonna do this for this person, or I'm gonna do that for
that person.
What are you gonna do for you?
And the question becomes, who do you need to be, be, not do, to get the desired results?
Yeah, I've been learning about that.
That's so profound.
It sounds like you're echoing people that I look up to and I respect.
There's this one person who mentions like, be, do, have.
And oftentimes we start with the have and try to figure out do, do, do.
But you don't realize you have to start with who you are, your mind, and become the person
who can do the things in order to have the result.
Absolutely.
That's the hard work though.
You know we skip the work.
Right?
Or we go to the thing we know, which is the do, do, do, do, do, do.
And we burnt out.
And by the time we get the do or the thing, the have part.
It's not fulfilling.
Yeah.
my gosh.
So this is this goes real deep because I have gone through that a little bit.
Yeah.
And I think and you know, the cool thing is that being takes so much longer than doing.
it's a test of our patience.
Yeah.
Because you have to be patient to start becoming the person.
then when it's time to do the things, there comes grace.
So I like to believe that there comes grace.
So I have been, uh it's relevant to me because I've produce the podcast, I'm producing a
podcast right now.
And I've been trying to figure out, for the last two years, trying to figure out how to
solve this marketing, this social media stuff.
It's a lot, right?
And...
It's been a whole journey.
I realized fairly recently, like, I just received a level of grace that just made the
doing easier.
And then when I started doing it, I realized I had been the person prepared for a while
and I've been prepared for to even have these conversations.
imagine if I, maybe, you know, I believe God's time is great because if I started this two
years ago,
the depth, the insight, the experience, even the people that I meet at the time, it would
have just been completely different.
So be patient to become, receive the grace to do, and then be grateful when you have the
having.
I love it.
I love it.
And the only thing I would add to that is there's mercy in all of that.
Right.
And what I mean by that is from
the grace, there is mercy, which brings abundance.
But you gotta sit back and allow, you heard me say allow, because we like to get in the
way of what we think we know it should be, when it should be, how it should be.
And most times we're not ready.
It is something to be said about being out of season.
Even though you have the vision and can see, but not the being.
Yeah.
it's so funny, like this conversation is getting depth, it's getting deep, right?
And it's so important for our audience and business owners to know that this work to do on
the people is like the organization is made up of the people.
So like the people go through this, if the people transform, grow, the organization can't
help but grow.
Even the organization collectively goes through this process, I would say.
it does.
And most leaders miss it because they're focusing on the doing.
And that's okay, but someone should have their eyes on the prize.
If the people is the most valuable asset.
If you've grown to the point where you have people, that means that you've decided
have the financial wherewithal, have the products, the service to deliver, and you need
people to do that work, then someone has to be manning the ship called people.
And if that is the last thing that you do, you will stall.
You will stall.
Your organization, your culture will become toxic, which will impede their ability to
thrive.
and bring the best version of themselves to do the work that you need them to do.
You will not have loyalty.
They will show up for a paycheck.
So anything that's outside of their job, they're not gonna do or think twice about it
because they're there for the paycheck, not to see the organization grow.
We're in partnership without people.
Yeah, we are, right?
We're in partnership without people.
And it's through them that we'll get the next bright idea.
If you're doing your job correctly as the leaders, it will come through our people because
they're the ones that's most closest to delivering the services, the product, creating,
what have you.
Now, when I'm pouring back into my people, I'm a leader.
So you mentioned that sometimes people can be attractive to the benefits compensation
package for seemingly personal reasons for themselves, of course.
Absolutely.
Most businesses are not just charity.
Even the charities themselves will have compensation.
do I get my team to be more devoted to the mission than to their compensation?
When their work does not feel like work.
Because the same thing applies to you and I, right?
We jump out of bed.
knowing that as the CEOs of small businesses, we work 10 times longer, 10 times harder,
all the things, but we still pop out of bed.
We're popping out of bed because we're working on our passion.
We're working on our expertise.
We get to meet new people, all those things.
Well, what's the thing that motivates your people?
I thought it was money, but...
Right, but even money will run its course.
The worst thing that you can have
is a toxic culture, right, where people quit or stay and disengage.
Stay and disengage.
I'm here, punch the clock, go.
What motivates them?
Are they just here for the paycheck?
Because it's many people that need a job for paycheck.
But the motivation, but the incentives, but the why are they there is what builds loyalty,
is what builds commitment, is what will have the next great idea to come from.
And as leaders, we have to um cultivate that.
We have to understand what motivates our people beyond money.
Because if I'm paying you well, then that's a transaction.
You do this, I pay you money.
You leave.
There's no extra effort behind that that's gonna move the organization to the next level.
Personally, those are the people I wanna work with.
I don't knock anyone that comes to work to get a check.
We should pay our people and we should pay them accordingly or what their worth is, what
they're bringing to the table, et cetera.
But beyond that, why are you here?
Are you making a difference?
Is it because of impact?
Is it because you believe in our mission?
Why are you here?
So that's why I encourage leaders to do stay interviews, not just exit interviews, stay
interviews.
Why are you still here, wow.
Stay interviews.
want to know why you're still here.
Right?
Because I want to know what I'm doing well so I can keep doing it.
Because I can go into a think tank and come up with all these bright ideas and take away
the very thing that's motivating my people.
Because I don't know why.
So what about state interviews?
I would encourage leaders to do that.
It's simple.
It's a survey.
Send it out.
Ask three questions.
Done.
AI is a beautiful thing.
How about that?
Efficient.
That's very, um that's actually really profound because you're essentially saying that
you're going to get more, both parties, the employer and employee gets more out of work
when they align, their whys are being met by the organization as well.
And you even mentioned, you said that
Employees the next idea actually comes from the people.
Yeah, so what you're doing is curating creativity And isn't that what we actually are
looking for in our businesses when we bring people We're looking for people who are
encouraged to think to help me bear though.
I don't have to do it all Yes, that's what will shore up leaders to begin to shift their
minds that yes Because Tawana had this right idea.
I'm so glad I didn't have to think about the next thing
now and I can work on the business versus in the business.
Yes.
Thank you for this coaching session.
Anytime.
Thank you.
All right.
So this is let me ask this final question.
And this is really just for any of the owners who are like, OK, man, you're talking all
this.
I've took down the four Rs and.
the honeymoon power struggle, maturity.
I want you to simplify one thing, just all that we've talked about, just one thing.
If somebody really was like, Tawana, I need to get my team back on track.
And if there's one thing that will get me most of the way there or the most way there,
I'll see the most result.
What is that?
Where should I start?
I would engage with them.
As leaders, we try to solve for them.
What if we partnered with our team?
And what I mean by that is ask the simple questions.
You don't need to hire me, not that I wouldn't want you to, to create a survey for you
that asks all the questions.
Ask the team their why.
Going back to that state interview, the second thing I would say is ask them to solve for.
People know what they want, right?
And then ask them, what is the biggest pain point that you believe we have in the
organization that is in the way of us skyrocketing?
And once they tell you that, ask them what role they want to play.
Let's do it together.
That's right.
I said partner, partner, partner, partner, partner.
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
You shared such wisdom, such depth.
um I learned a lot.
Absolutely.
So thank you so much.
um Yeah, we're coming to the end.
I just want to ask, know, are people wanting, they want to know about you.
They're looking to figure out.
maybe even come work with you.
Tell them where can we find you?
What are you doing?
um Yeah.
So we're on all the social medias, OAIB.
What does that stand for again?
Organization at its best.
I'm the CEO and principal consultant for Organization at its best.
um As you mentioned, 25 years doing this work and I jump out of bed for it.
I have passion for it.
I'm also a newly published author.
So I have my book here with me.
yeah.
Let them know.
right there.
weaponization of DEIB.
It's a guide.
So I've been a practitioner of DEI for the last 25 years before it was popular.
Let me say it that way.
And this book is, I knew the attack was coming.
I saw the shift.
And so this book was really about me giving a guy, I had to get this out to everyone,
leaders, practitioners, just your average employee.
And I tell a story about my walk through corporate America as a black woman.
And I talk about our missteps, but I also give us guidance and direction for how this can
become a part of our organization and not be an initiative.
but a way in which we do our work.
And that's how I grew up in DEI.
And the B stands for belonging.
Because at the end of the day, when people feel that they belong, they know that they are
heard.
So to me, it's DEI equals belonging.
Equals belonging.
I talk about our missteps, but at the end of the day, given where we are in our...
country.
What I would say to you is we do have to move away from this, you know, um
initiative checkbox, a statement on a website, all these things.
And I would like to see us move to leading with humanity.
Because if we treat each other like human beings, we will be respectful.
We will honor our differences.
We will be inclusive.
We'll do all the things that's at the root of DEI before it became weaponized.
So please go to my website, www.oaib.org.
and purchase the book.
When you go on the website, you'll learn that we offer a leadership academy.
We have a DEI bootcamp.
Even though those are bad words, I promise you the intent is to educate, have executive
coaching.
You'll find us on all the social medias.
And I'm just so honored that you chose me oh to be a part of your webcast.
So I do pray that something was said that will educate, that will move organizations
forward.
And if there's any other questions that come up, you can find me on all the socials, but I
would love to continue this conversation.
Thank you so much.
I'm honored that you accepted it.
You know, this is like our inaugural episode.
So thank you so much for coming on.
oh Yeah, that's it.
So we did that.
Thank you.